View Full Version : Alcohol vs canister: lesser of two evils in cold
John Klein
11-11-2008, 18:50
If you could only choose between a pepsi can stove, an etowah outfitters alcohol stove, or a pocket rocket with low temperatures below freezing, what would you take?
Alcohol, with a good windscreen.
Lone Wolf
11-11-2008, 18:54
If you could only choose between a pepsi can stove, an etowah outfitters alcohol stove, or a pocket rocket with low temperatures below freezing, what would you take?
pocket rocket
Used canister to 11* w/o trouble
Had trouble keeping my alcohol lit at 17* even after warming fuel & stove inside jacket. Made a cold & crunchy meal.
slowandlow
11-11-2008, 20:45
I just switched to a cannister stove, a snowpeak litemax, and it performed well this past weekend at Joyce Kilmer-Slickrock with temps in the teens in the morning.
sheepdog
11-11-2008, 20:48
Pocket rocket.
garlic08
11-11-2008, 20:57
Great question, "lesser of two evils", indeed. I haven't used a canister, but my pepsi can stove works great down to zero F. My partner's canister works OK in the cold after he takes it out of his jacket.
If you could only choose between a pepsi can stove, an etowah outfitters alcohol stove, or a pocket rocket with low temperatures below freezing, what would you take?
I have all 3 stoves you mentioned and I'd take the Pocket Rocket in those temps.
I'd take the Pocket Rocket in those temps.
LOL, You going out in those temps again?:eek:
BackTrack1
11-11-2008, 21:15
ive used both, and found that neither likes the cold, but if it were me, ide take the pocket rocket and just keep the canister warm, it works much quiker than alchohole and when its cold who wants to wait for hot water.
LOL, You going out in those temps again?:eek:
Not if I can help it! :D
SloHiker
11-21-2008, 14:28
Alcohol, with a good windscreen.
And I'll add the following: In extremely cold conditions, I keep a few ounces in a small container (@ 3 ounces) and keep it as warm as possible. (Inside pocket, sleeping bag, etc.) I've had no problems using alcohol with temps down in the teens. I don't even own a canister stove anymore.
Slo-go'en
11-21-2008, 15:30
White gas stoves are still the best when it's really cold.
Canister stoves are OK, but expect about half the burn time you'd get in warm weather.
Although you can get alcohol to work at modertely low temps, it is more of a PITA then its worth IMOHO.
Jim Adams
11-21-2008, 15:30
wouldn't consider anything but a cannister. my pocket rocket has never failed or performed poorly and if i'm not thru hiking, my backpacking is always winter. pocket rocket worked totally normal last winter at -8*, haven't had to warm a cannister yet...i just keep it inside my pot in the center of my pack while hiking and when not in use in camp.
geek
gravityman
11-21-2008, 17:48
wouldn't consider anything but a cannister. my pocket rocket has never failed or performed poorly and if i'm not thru hiking, my backpacking is always winter. pocket rocket worked totally normal last winter at -8*, haven't had to warm a cannister yet...i just keep it inside my pot in the center of my pack while hiking and when not in use in camp.
geek
And you didn't see ice form on the outside at those temps? I'm surprised ti worked totally normal (unless you temp is in Celcius).
Canister stoves can and will work good in the could, but it does take a little work. I usually carry a lightweight disposable tupperware, and my first pot of melted snow will get poured in to that, and the canister stove then sits in it. This keeps it warm (and thus the pressure up, and thus the fuel non-liquid).
Another option is the remote canister stoves, where the canister sits upside down so it gets to the stove. The stove instantly vaporizes it. Works at any temp then!
Gravity
I only do winter hiking due to my job and I have noticed that not all canisters are created equal. I have always had better luck with MSR and the GIGA POWER also does well but the worst I have come across so far is PRIMUS. I have also noticed that the larger 16 OZ canisters at least from Primus in cold situation preform well till about half way then abruptly die.
I have a MSR reactor and it always works not matter how cold, windy or altitude. But I always leave it at home for my pocket rocket. When its really cold and windy I will wrap my foam pad around the stove to block The wind.
fiddlehead
12-25-2008, 08:21
Last time i was in the Himalayas (2004) i noticed that a team of climbers who were coming down from an 8,000 metre peak (Manasalu) were using GAZ propane/butane canister stoves.
If it works for them, it works for me.
I did have trouble with an international whisper lite over there and even had problems with my zip stove above 15,000' Probably had dirty fuel for the whisper-lite and maybe lack of oxygen for the zip??? (but it could've been the wood?)
Haven't tried alcohol over there and doubt it'd be easy to find good stuff.
You want a canister for cold weather? The Grasshopper works well at all temps.:D
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=24116&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=7682&cutoffdate=-1
I've used a Brunton Raptor cannister stove down to 2 degrees with no problems. Used only one 8oz canister on a section hike thru the GSMNP.
atraildreamer
12-25-2008, 09:47
If you could only choose between a pepsi can stove, an etowah outfitters alcohol stove, or a pocket rocket with low temperatures below freezing, what would you take?
Questions like this can start an online "flame war" ! :eek: (Pun intended!:rolleyes:) :banana
PocketRocket or cannister stove of any type down to 10 degrees.
Reason? The fuel in the cannister is capable of producing far more BTU than alcohol at any temperature.
Effect? Cannister puts higher temperature flame to container in a more concentrated, controllable flame pattern than any alcohol stove, meaning that the cold air surrounding it cannot take it away as fast meaning that your water boils faster.
If you choose to use alcohol, be aware that in temperatures below freezing it may take two to three times the amount of alcohol to boil the typical 2 cups of water than at the more alcohol stove-friendly summer temperatures in the fifties and up, and more if you don't keep the fuel bottle and water warm by keeping it next to your body under your coat or sleeping bag.
With any fuel, keep it warm as above, as well as warming your water with body heat whenever it's feasable (make sure that your water bottle or bag doesn't leak before you take it to bed with you).
If you are just boiling water to cook your Lipton dinners, Pepsi can stove is my choice. I've tested mine in 8 degrees and it worked great. Here's a pic of one of my stoves. This one has 950 miles on it, and still looks new. It's going on my thru-hike next year.
Feral Bill
12-25-2008, 17:44
[quote=fiddlehead;745163]Last time i was in the Himalayas (2004) i noticed that a team of climbers who were coming down from an 8,000 metre peak (Manasalu) were using GAZ propane/butane canister stoves.
If it works for them, it works for me.
quote]
High elevations=low air pressure=lower boiling point for butane. Results at 2000 meters max are not likely to be the same.
None of the above. Use a wick based alcohol stove like the starlyte at zero *F temps. Alcohol does not need to be warmed, or kept next to ones body with this stove!
I prefer a backcountry ski hut with a propane stove, a wood stove and a fireplace. Then I serve pie that I baked at 11k+ feet. ;)
But I'm a wimp with a love for good food..and this has nothing to do with the thread. :sun
take-a-knee
12-26-2008, 16:39
PocketRocket or cannister stove of any type down to 10 degrees.
Reason? The fuel in the cannister is capable of producing far more BTU than alcohol at any temperature.
Effect? Cannister puts higher temperature flame to container in a more concentrated, controllable flame pattern than any alcohol stove, meaning that the cold air surrounding it cannot take it away as fast meaning that your water boils faster.
If you choose to use alcohol, be aware that in temperatures below freezing it may take two to three times the amount of alcohol to boil the typical 2 cups of water than at the more alcohol stove-friendly summer temperatures in the fifties and up, and more if you don't keep the fuel bottle and water warm by keeping it next to your body under your coat or sleeping bag.
With any fuel, keep it warm as above, as well as warming your water with body heat whenever it's feasable (make sure that your water bottle or bag doesn't leak before you take it to bed with you).
I can tell you've never tried a Caldera Cone.
No, I haven't. Don't need one. My Whisperlite works just fine when it's way below freezing. The extra weight of the stove is more than offset by the lack of fuel consumpton vs. any alcohol stove I've used. The Caldera Cone may well improve the efficiency of an alcohol stove, but it cannot alter the molecular makeup of fuel alcohol forcing more btu out of it. Apparantly it works for you. I don't think it gets as cold in Ga as it does in the White Mts. in winter. If I meet someone with a Caldera Cone in the winter I'll be able to observe its efficiency personally.
I support the use of alcohol as a stove fuel, regardless of what type of stove you use, due to its sustainable nature vs fossil fuels, and use it in the warmer months, so I'm not anti-alcohol by any means (though it is more expensive than Coleman fuel per gallon).
take-a-knee
12-26-2008, 18:14
No, I haven't. Don't need one. My Whisperlite works just fine when it's way below freezing. The extra weight of the stove is more than offset by the lack of fuel consumpton vs. any alcohol stove I've used. The Caldera Cone may well improve the efficiency of an alcohol stove, but it cannot alter the molecular makeup of fuel alcohol forcing more btu out of it. Apparantly it works for you. I don't think it gets as cold in Ga as it does in the White Mts. in winter. If I meet someone with a Caldera Cone in the winter I'll be able to observe its efficiency personally.
I support the use of alcohol as a stove fuel, regardless of what type of stove you use, due to its sustainable nature vs fossil fuels, and use it in the warmer months, so I'm not anti-alcohol by any means (though it is more expensive than Coleman fuel per gallon).
I agree, I wouldn't take a Caldera Cone or any other alcohol stove to the Whites in the winter, white gas all the way. My smart-aleck response was meant to say that nearly all of an alcohol stove's downsides are dealt with quite effectively with the Caldera Cone, it works as advertised, it's only downside is storing it so that cone doesn't get crushed. You are correct that alcohol has about half the BTU's per pound as petroleum fuels. This, IMO and that of others with many more AT miles logged than me, is not a limitation for an AT hiker with the ability to resupply every 4-5 days, unless you are going SOBO on JAN 01.
Thanks for clearing that up. :)