View Full Version : Scout Badge question
When the scouts do overnight trips, are they required to make a "shelter" as a project?
I have been to many campsite and shelters that have these "shelters" made from a sapling, sticks and usually ferns.
I am just guessing they are from the scouts, from the evidence left in the shelter registers, saying that scouts stayed there recently.
Why don't they take them down?
Are they being taught LNT?
Wilderness survival is the only MB in which a shelter must be built (that I can rememer). Don't know why they would not be taken down after being built. Next time write down the Troop number and call their local BSA District HQ.
trippclark
11-16-2008, 10:44
When the scouts do overnight trips, are they required to make a "shelter" as a project?
I have been to many campsite and shelters that have these "shelters" made from a sapling, sticks and usually ferns.
I am just guessing they are from the scouts, from the evidence left in the shelter registers, saying that scouts stayed there recently.
Why don't they take them down?
Are they being taught LNT?
There is a requirement for such in the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge. See requirement #8 at this link:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Wilderness_Survival
"Improvise a natural shelter. For the purpose of this demonstration, use techniques that have little negative impact on the environment. Spend a night in your shelter."
Scouting also teaches LNT and while the requirement does not expressly state to "tear it down when you are done," it does say to "use techniques that have little negative impact on the environment." I would think that a trained and responsible leader would have their Scouts disassemble the shelter after use.
See also:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Leave_No_Trace
and
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Leave_No_Trace_Award_(Boy_Scouts_and_Venturers)
Some won't like what they're about to read. I'm posting it anyway, because it should appear in this thread.
Building such structures on the AT is not only inconsiderate, some places it's illegal, especially were it to involve cutting standing trees, live or not. The proper place to construct these shelters would be on private land where permission is requested well beforehand and received.
Some won't like what they're about to read. I'm posting it anyway, because it should appear in this thread.
Building such structures on the AT is not only inconsiderate, some places it's illegal, especially were it to involve cutting standing trees, live or not. The proper place to construct these shelters would be on private land where permission is requested well beforehand and received.
Couldn't agree more!
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 12:34
It is not always the Scouts who are into such constructions. Here in Pa., and I'm sure elsewhere, there are locals who will find a campsite for the weekend (sometimes an established campsite, sometimes not) and will build all manner of shelters, tables, benches, etc. for the group. I have NEVER seen these folks tear down any of these structures afterward - heck, why would they, since they know that they'll be back again to re-use the site.
I maintain a section near the William Penn shelter, and I've seen this for more than 20 years. Most of this takes place on public land, since they (presumably) don't have any land of their own to play on!
Most of this takes place on public land, since they (presumably) don't have any land of their own to play on!
So they play on public land where they disregard the rules and despoil it for others!:rolleyes:
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 12:46
So they play on everyone else's where they make their own rules!:rolleyes:
Hey, it's just like the people who have ALWAYS ridden horses on the AT in certain places - "We've always done this; why stop now?"
I knew you couldn't resist! Should I post a link to the horsey thread?:)
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 13:02
I knew you couldn't resist! Should I post a link to the horsey thread?:)
NO! The more you stir horse poop, the more it stinks!:eek:
Wise Old Owl
11-16-2008, 15:53
Shades of Grey, I have watched numerous scouts make those shelters and many of them would freeze their ass off as they are so badly built. Yet not once have I ever observe a kid use live trees. I have observed some juvinile deliquent tenderfoot back of car campers cut live trees for a campfire. It appears that not being in a training leadership organization raises more concerns and stupidity.
Horsey poop - let me guess-I won't clean up after my dog, until we get the horse riders to pack it out? [insert Sarcastic Joke Smiley here]
I was recently approached by a coworker about a Scout activity he and his son would attend where they would be participating in such wilderness survival training. Generally not one to hold back, I told him I didn't believe teaching Scouts to build these shelters was beneficial to them or the public.
I pointed out staying warm has more to do with proper gear, sound judgement and recognizing the signs of hypothermia than building shelters and fires. Somewhat to my own surprise, I added more would be accomplished by instructing Scouts when and how to use cell phones.
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 18:42
I was recently approached by a coworker about a Scout activity he and his son would attend where they would be participating in such wilderness survival training. Generally not one to hold back, I told him I didn't believe teaching Scouts to build these shelters was beneficial to them or the public.
I pointed out staying warm has more to do with proper gear, sound judgement and recognizing the signs of hypothermia than building shelters and fires. Somewhat to my own surprise, I added more would be accomplished by instructing Scouts in appropriate use of cell phones.
CELL PHONE USAGE!!!:eek: You should be ashamed of yourself. I shall have to look for a nearby cell phone tower from which to hang your cold, lifeless body once you perish from exposure!:D
As for "survival" shelters, they would be better served to take an outside course a la Tom Brown, where they would learn not only the correct way to build a survival shelter, but also how much work goes into one that is properly constructed.
CELL PHONE USAGE!!!:eek: You should be ashamed of yourself.
I had to spin around for a look behind myself because I wasn't sure it was me speaking either!:D
I know we're not miles from nowhere in much of Pennsylvania, but I also know there are places cell phones won't work and batteries do fail. Still, I believe there are better ways to be prepared.
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 19:06
I had to spin around for a look behind myself because I wasn't sure it was me speaking either!:D
I know we're not miles from nowhere in much of Pennsylvania, but I also know there are places cell phones won't work and batteries do fail. Still, I believe there are better ways to be prepared.
I've always believed that depending on a cell phone to get out of a jam was something that fell into the same catagory as NOT carrying toilet paper because there might be some left by some considerate soul at the next crapper: if you're not PREPARED to venture out, then stay home.
And as far as "being connected 24/7" goes, don't get me started --- I go to the woods to get away from it all....
I've always believed that depending on a cell phone to get out of a jam was something that fell into the same category as NOT carrying toilet paper because there might be some left by some considerate soul at the next crapper: if you're not PREPARED to venture out, then stay home.
If you mean prepared to physically extract yourself, I'm sure you can imagine circumstances when someone couldn't get his or herself out and help may arrive too late. I'm only suggesting technology be used to speed up the process, not as a substitute for being prepared.
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 19:58
If you mean prepared to physically extract yourself, I'm sure you can imagine circumstances when someone couldn't get out his or herself and help may arrive too late. I'm only suggesting technology be used to speed up the process, not as a replacement for being prepared.
We risk going off-topic, so I'll tread carefully.
No, I can imagine those circumstances, but I fear that the prevailing techno-culture has spawned people who would rather use the phone in place of common sense and preparedness. (I know a few, as I'm sure we all do.) As you point out, it's not like we're miles from nowhere in Pa., and there is no season of the year when you do NOT run across other hikers who would lend a hand toward the extraction process. Still, knowing how to build a proper survival shelter leans toward the idea of "making do with what's at hand", which is the same mind-set as carrying a little extra food in case you get stuck, or letting the folks back home know where you're going and when you'll be back. You go prepared for things, and make do if you have to. Some aspects of techno-culture seem to be saying "Just go, and use the technology to make up the difference".
Ya wanna learn survival skills, do it right. Who knows, it just might change your mind-set.
Wise Old Owl
11-16-2008, 20:03
I had to spin around for a look behind myself because I wasn't sure it was me speaking either!:D
I know we're not miles from nowhere in much of Pennsylvania, but I also know there are places cell phones won't work and batteries do fail. Still, I believe there are better ways to be prepared.
What are you guys smoking? can I have some?
Boy Scouts probably know how to use all the features of a cell phone better than us old farts. - Mine makes a great MP3 player on the trail!
shelterbuilder
11-16-2008, 20:12
What are you guys smoking? can I have some?....
I don't know about SOG, but I'm just woozy from having my lungs all clogged with Husky fur!:D
What are you guys smoking? can I have some?
I don't know about SOG, but I'm just woozy from having my lungs all clogged with Husky fur!:D
Me, smoking? I'm the guy who calls the fire department when someone's smoking. I might visit my local tavern later to which I've taken a liking now that it's smoke free to see who shows and to enjoy a Pennsylvania microbrew.
Boy Scouts probably know how to use all the features of a cell phone better than us old farts.
My coworker and his troop's adult leaders are a lot like sb. He told me they don't allow the boys to have cell phones, because they go to the woods to get away from technology.
If I owned one, mine would be turned off in my pack with fresh batteries in it.
LNT is drilled into Scouts from Day 1, but... the sweet spot in Scouting membership is from age 11 to about 14 or 15 (the older Scouts tend to be less active), and not all boys in that age range are particularly attentive or responsive (hence the multiple presentations of LNT principles).
Having done the Wilderness Survival MB with a group of Scouts, I can't imagine doing it on a camp-site off the AT -- I'd prefer something much more controlled with fewer random folks coming and going.
As far as Scouts being ill-served by learning shelter construction and fire-building, I have to laugh. That was kidding around, right? Of course the shelters are poorly constructed -- they are built by 11-14 year-old boys, many of whom are engaging in their first construction project. They learn by making mistakes. The whole point of the Scouting movement is to provide a safe, controlled environment in which young, often immature boys can make mistakes. And boy, oh boy, do they ever. For adults, the most bizarre, frustrating aspect of Scouting is that they boys are supposed to be screwing up, and we are just along to keep things from getting dangerous.
So, next time you pass some doughy old Scout leader, instead of sneering, or opining that his/her efforts would be better spent teaching the boys to use a cell phone, consider that this person is willingly going out with not only his/her annoying kid, but with others' annoying kids, and spending time on an outing that is, by its very design, SUPPOSED TO BE FILLED WITH MISTAKES AND SCREW-UPS, and that this adult leader will be attempting to maintain a facade of smiling calm, no matter how dire the situation. That person is either a saint, or a dangerous lunatic who might snap at any moment. Either way, respect should be given. :^) :^) :^)
As far as Scouts being ill-served by learning shelter construction and fire-building, I have to laugh. That was kidding around, right?
Before saying anything more, I'd like to point out shelterbuilder was an ASM and I was a 3rd generation Scout who spent as much of my free time as I could at Camp Shikellamy and Camp Nisatin where my grandfather served for more than 25 years as camp ranger.
I wasn't kidding, not entirely. Fire has an innate attractive quality and learning to cook over a wood fire is a way of reconnecting with our past, but I don't believe fire is an essential part of a backcountry experience although I admit under certain circumstances it adds something worthwhile.
I love the smell of smoke produced by well-seasoned hardwoods and can distinguish between many of the more common firewoods by the smell of the smoke they produce. There's something about gathering by a fire in the darkness with others that is far superior to gathering by a kitchen table.
The notion that fires are required to get warm and the best way to get warm once cold is to build a fire is misguided. I'm reminded of my own experiences and threads where that discussion has come up before and even recall specific posts by particular individuals.
Stick around. I'll find a thread I remember which will serve to clarify what I've only begun to touch upon.
Stick around. I'll find a thread I remember.
If properly equipped, there's no need to build shelter or fire. I wonder for what Scouts are being prepared? The winter activity where everything goes wrong or is Wilderness Survival MB really more about learning traditional skills which have limited utility today? Serious question. I'd like to hear what others think.
A thread I've always enjoyed and recommended before is called Need help figuring out how to stay dry & warm. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22853) Some of what I wrote is at least to some extent in jest and it does require a fire to bake potatoes in coals.:D
See also this TrailJournals post (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=257811) and ask yourself would building a makeshift shelter or fire have been more effective?
rpenczek
11-17-2008, 10:13
I think perhaps most would agree with you SOG that there are better ways to stay warm and dry, however, perhaps you are not seeing the bigger picture.
Lets say I am prepared for a late fall day hike. I have my 10 essentials so I am prepared.
But something happens and I get stranded. Now, I did not plan to be out overnight (in the cold and wet), so, I did not bring my sleeping bag, I did not bring a shelter. I don't have all the other gear I might have while backpacking (stove, water treatment, etc...).
Why not have at least been introduced to building a basic shelter to help block the wind, eliminate some of the potential wetness? Why not be able to build a fire to help stay warm and help my psyche?
Wilderness Survival Merit Badge (WSMB) is not intended to teach a way of regular camping. We have Camping Merit Badge and Backpacking Merit Badge for that purpose. WSMB is designed to give boys a taste (not perfection) of what you can do to help youself in an unfortunate circumstance. Yes you should be prepared, but what if you are not, is it not good to know what you can do to help youself?
Finally, I very much agree that any/all constructed shelters should be done so with downed wood, leaves, etc... and dismantled after the exercies is complete.
Happy Scouting.
Just suc the fun out of everything boys do...close and replant the trail if you want LNT.
A pile of sticks don't bother me. Big deal.
LNT is drilled into Scouts from Day 1, but... the sweet spot in Scouting membership is from age 11 to about 14 or 15 (the older Scouts tend to be less active), and not all boys in that age range are particularly attentive or responsive (hence the multiple presentations of LNT principles).
Having done the Wilderness Survival MB with a group of Scouts, I can't imagine doing it on a camp-site off the AT -- I'd prefer something much more controlled with fewer random folks coming and going.
As far as Scouts being ill-served by learning shelter construction and fire-building, I have to laugh. That was kidding around, right? Of course the shelters are poorly constructed -- they are built by 11-14 year-old boys, many of whom are engaging in their first construction project. They learn by making mistakes. The whole point of the Scouting movement is to provide a safe, controlled environment in which young, often immature boys can make mistakes. And boy, oh boy, do they ever. For adults, the most bizarre, frustrating aspect of Scouting is that they boys are supposed to be screwing up, and we are just along to keep things from getting dangerous.
So, next time you pass some doughy old Scout leader, instead of sneering, or opining that his/her efforts would be better spent teaching the boys to use a cell phone, consider that this person is willingly going out with not only his/her annoying kid, but with others' annoying kids, and spending time on an outing that is, by its very design, SUPPOSED TO BE FILLED WITH MISTAKES AND SCREW-UPS, and that this adult leader will be attempting to maintain a facade of smiling calm, no matter how dire the situation. That person is either a saint, or a dangerous lunatic who might snap at any moment. Either way, respect should be given. :^) :^) :^)
Amen, brother.
MaineSurveyor
11-17-2008, 13:49
Amen, brother.
...second that.
If properly equipped, there's no need to build shelter or fire. I wonder for what Scouts are being prepared? The winter activity where everything goes wrong or is Wilderness Survival MB really more about learning traditional skills which have limited utility today? Serious question. I'd like to hear what others think.
I was hoping for something resembling a discussion. We may still have a discussion, but it's not looking good so far. All I hear is echoes.:(
Blissful
11-17-2008, 14:37
Maybe you need to get in there and offer to help update their requirements for wilderness survival, SOG. :) For sure with the troops I've seen on the trail and how inadequate they are prepared at times, they need it.
MaineSurveyor
11-17-2008, 14:46
Okay...discussion...:-?
As was posted earlier, keep in mind the age group of the scouts. Scouting is about character building not career building; keep the FUN in scouting and don't fret the little things. Those "...traditional skills which have limited utility today..." are just as important to youth as playing games which have limited utility today such as 'cowboys and indians'.
As far as LNT, the amount of 'trace' left is dependent upon location. If I'm in a National Forest and come upon what was obviously used as a campsite but the previous users applied carry-in, carry-out than I'll reuse the same site and it doesn't bother me a bit. If I was looking for true wilderness I wouldn't be using trails.
berninbush
11-17-2008, 15:00
Wilderness Survival Merit Badge (WSMB) is not intended to teach a way of regular camping. We have Camping Merit Badge and Backpacking Merit Badge for that purpose. WSMB is designed to give boys a taste (not perfection) of what you can do to help youself in an unfortunate circumstance. Yes you should be prepared, but what if you are not, is it not good to know what you can do to help youself?
That, to me, is the point. Sure there are better shelters, sleeping bags, stoves, etc. available to backpackers if you know you're going to be out. "Wilderness survival" implies something different. A dayhike gone wrong is one example. Another example would be if you're stranded by something like a plane crash. Or kidnapped and dumped in woods. Or shipwrecked alone on a remote coast, with nothing but the wet clothes on your back. Most of these scenarios will not happen to most people in their lifetime, unless they choose a much more adventurous lifestyle than most of us care to lead. But having learned Wilderness Survival skills at some point is an enormous asset if you *do* find yourself in an unlikely situation such as these. It's a completely different skill set from LNT backpacking, which looks luxurious in contrast.
I absolutely think these kinds of survival skills should still be taught. They do save lives and they keep these arts from being lost. Imagine a world where no one has been taught to build a fire from flint and steel because they all assume they will always have commercially-produced lighters with them.
It does seem more considerate for practice shelters to be built out of sight of public trails. On another thread I made a distinction between "LNT" that's for the sake of the environment and "LNT" that's in consideration of the feelings of other hikers. IMHO this falls squarely into the category of the latter. A downed-wood shelter is not harmful to the environment, it's just annoying to hikers who want to pretend they're in virgin forest. Put it away from the trail and it won't harm anything. You can pretty much guarantee that the universe will have taken care of it in a month, anyway.
Okay...discussion...:-?
As was posted earlier, keep in mind the age group of the scouts. Scouting is about character building not career building; keep the FUN in scouting and don't fret the little things. Those "...traditional skills which have limited utility today..." are just as important to youth as playing games which have limited utility today such as 'cowboys and indians'.
I appreciate your comments and hope some of the others will stay with us to share their observations and opinions. Fire building is not a useless activity and it is certainly something Scouts should learn. I enjoy building a campfire and spending time with others gathered around it as Blissful can confirm.
My intent was to question the value of makeshift shelters and a fire in the open air as a means of staving off hypothermia. I didn't say teaching this is wrong. I only pointed out my own experiences and those of others here lead us to wonder if the best course of action is to commence building a fire and then sit by it to get warm. To advance my point, I linked a WhiteBlaze thread and cited the recent experience of two through hikers in North Carolina which I also linked.
"Wilderness survival" implies something different. A dayhike gone wrong is one example. Another example would be if you're stranded by something like a plane crash. Or kidnapped and dumped in woods. Or shipwrecked alone on a remote coast, with nothing but the wet clothes on your back. But having learned Wilderness Survival skills at some point is an enormous asset if you *do* find yourself in an unlikely situation such as these. It's a completely different skill set from LNT backpacking, which looks luxurious in contrast.
You cite a number of examples where such skills could mean the difference between life and death. Do you think any of these skills you mentioned could be useful to AT hikers?
We have other threads which address the general subject of AT hiker preparedness. Is there any point to discussing the requirements of this merit badge in greater detail?
berninbush
11-17-2008, 15:22
Shades of Gray, in the story you linked to I think it's pretty clear that building a shelter or a fire would have been unnecessary and counterproductive. Those hikers had a tent plus (apparently) a stove, a sleeping bag, dry clothing, and they were able to reach an established shelter. What if they had had none of those things? Obviously you're not going to stop and try to build a shelter and a fire in pouring rain and howling wind with big trees crashing around you. But when the storm stops and cold night sets in, if you're stranded with no gear, that's when you need those shelter-building and fire-making skills.
berninbush
11-17-2008, 15:26
[quote=Shades of Gray;725825]You cite a number of examples where such skills could mean the difference between life and death. Do you think any of these skills you mentioned could be useful to AT hikers?
[quote]
Wilderness survival skills are probably of very limited usefulness to AT hikers who come out properly prepared. As I understand it, the original point of this thread was not to ask whether the badge skills were useful to AT hikers, but whether there was any merit to teaching such skills at all and whether they should be allowed to be taught on public land such as the AT corridor.
I will say that on one of my first backpacking trips I was NOT adequately prepared for how cold it got, and building a campfire was extremely useful. Live and learn. And have backup skills.
When the scouts do overnight trips, are they required to make a "shelter" as a project?
I have been to many campsite and shelters that have these "shelters" made from a sapling, sticks and usually ferns.
I am just guessing they are from the scouts, from the evidence left in the shelter registers, saying that scouts stayed there recently.
Why don't they take them down?
Are they being taught LNT?
I thought it might be useful to quote the opening post. Only 2XL can tell us if his questions were answered. Many of them may have been.
It's probably true we have deviated from the original intent of this thread and I have contributed significantly to bringing us where we now find ourselves, but maybe it's not such a bad place to be after all. How that's for an attempt to justify off-topic posting?
jersey joe
11-17-2008, 15:46
When I was in scouts I was fortunate enough to have a leader who taught us wilderness survival skills. On one survival trip in winter we built debris huts and slept in them. We were taught to use only dead materials and we broke them down afterwards. LNT was indeed emphasized. Ultimately, scouts are only as good as their leaders. I am very glad I learned wilderness survival skills. They helped me to better appreciate and respect wilderness.
berninbush
11-17-2008, 15:53
So, here's imagining a scenario where "wilderness survival" might be of use even to a well-prepared AT thru hiker.
It's late evening, just before sunset on a lovely autumn day. It's been unseasonably warm all day but you know that, with the sky completely clear, it's going to plunge into the 30's after dark. Rain is also expected to roll in after midnight. You pick a place to camp 200 yards from a stream, set down your pack, change your boots for light flip-flops, and walk over to the stream to soak your feet.
When you come back to set up your tent, you find a mother bear and two cubs sniffing around your campsite. The mother bear instantly gets angry to see you, and all you can do is back slowly away. When they finally leave and you come back, you discover that they've shredded your pack and all its contents. Your Rainbow Tarptent is in rags. Your cat food stove is crushed. Your alcohol bottle is punctured and most of it has leaked into the ground. All your food has been eaten. Your hiking boots are well-chewed and unwearable. Your cell phone is broken.
You know the nearest shelter is more than 5 miles away. You're not going to get there until well after dark wearing flipflops, possibly not until after the cold rain starts. Your best bet would appear to be to shelter in place until morning and then seek help getting back to civilization to resupply. In that case, you're going to want some survival skills, including making a shelter for the night and building a fire.
Not an everyday scenario, but a conceivable one.
If properly equipped, there's no need to build shelter or fire. I wonder for what Scouts are being prepared? The winter activity where everything goes wrong or is Wilderness Survival MB really more about learning traditional skills which have limited utility today? Serious question. I'd like to hear what others think.
A thread I've always enjoyed and recommended before is called Need help figuring out how to stay dry & warm. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22853) Some of what I wrote is at least to some extent in jest and it does require a fire to bake potatoes in coals.:D
See also this TrailJournals post (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=257811) and ask yourself would building a makeshift shelter or fire have been more effective?
No doubt teaching effective planning and proper gear choice is the first key to any camping experience with the scouts. LNT echo's that as well.
At both levels (Pack & Troop) as an adult leader I try to not just give them a list of what they should or should not take with them. But also get them thinking about WHY they are packing what they pack.
I've read a lot here about light and ultralight backpacking, I've read lots of great common sense things. Translating that into scouts is very easy as well.
Get the kids thinking and you just might have them carrying lighter packs and knowing how to use their gear. :)
-Stephen
I appreciate your comments and hope some of the others will stay with us to share their observations and opinions. Fire building is not a useless activity and it is certainly something Scouts should learn. I enjoy building a campfire and spending time with others gathered around it as Blissful can confirm.
My intent was to question the value of makeshift shelters and a fire in the open air as a means of staving off hypothermia. I didn't say this teaching this is wrong. I only pointed out my own experiences and those of others here lead us to wonder if the best course of action is to commence building a fire and then sit by it to get warm. To advance my point, I linked a WhiteBlaze thread and cited the recent experience of two through hikers in North Carolina which I also linked.
You bring up fire building a lot. I agree it's great but today it's not always allowed even in private camps. Plus firewood is hard to find locally, most camps won't allow "transported" wood either.
A lot of times the only fire building training is in a half-barrel outside the scout hall. Propane stoves have overtaken cooking duties unless you haul in charcoal.
-Stephen
That, to me, is the point. Sure there are better shelters, sleeping bags, stoves, etc. available to backpackers if you know you're going to be out. "Wilderness survival" implies something different. A dayhike gone wrong is one example. Another example would be if you're stranded by something like a plane crash. Or kidnapped and dumped in woods. Or shipwrecked alone on a remote coast, with nothing but the wet clothes on your back. Most of these scenarios will not happen to most people in their lifetime, unless they choose a much more adventurous lifestyle than most of us care to lead. But having learned Wilderness Survival skills at some point is an enormous asset if you *do* find yourself in an unlikely situation such as these. It's a completely different skill set from LNT backpacking, which looks luxurious in contrast.
I absolutely think these kinds of survival skills should still be taught. They do save lives and they keep these arts from being lost. Imagine a world where no one has been taught to build a fire from flint and steel because they all assume they will always have commercially-produced lighters with them.
It does seem more considerate for practice shelters to be built out of sight of public trails. On another thread I made a distinction between "LNT" that's for the sake of the environment and "LNT" that's in consideration of the feelings of other hikers. IMHO this falls squarely into the category of the latter. A downed-wood shelter is not harmful to the environment, it's just annoying to hikers who want to pretend they're in virgin forest. Put it away from the trail and it won't harm anything. You can pretty much guarantee that the universe will have taken care of it in a month, anyway.
I think the true intent is confidence, the ability for a scout to learn that he can do things with the right skills.
If we can teach confidence to kids all other things follow it.
-Stephen
I started a thread awhile back titled "Scouts on the AT". I asked for comments on the experiences, both good and bad hikers had with Scouts. The purpose of this was to gather information for a paper I needed to write for a course I was taking. Out of 26 responses of those who actually had contact with Scouts while hiking the AT none mentioned shelter building. This is not to say that it wasn't Scouts who built the shelters but as a Scoutmaster and AT hiker I can say I've never seen it. The only Scouts I've seen on the trail (including my own) were always polite and followed LNT guidelines. There would be no reason to leave the shelters standing since they would be hiking on the next day and not be returning. However someone staying in the same place for a few days or planning to return the next weekend might. On my last section hike (Conn to NJ) I did see some things that should not be happening on our AT. ATV and horse use, drinking and dope smoking in one shelter (I moved on down the trail for that night) trash apparently from a group of college kids that I caught up to, but no shelters and people apparently living in shelters for extended periods. In the mean time I'm working on a set of guidelines or suggestions for Scouts using the AT to try to better relations between the hiking community and BSA.
berninbush
11-17-2008, 16:19
I think the true intent is confidence, the ability for a scout to learn that he can do things with the right skills.
If we can teach confidence to kids all other things follow it.
-Stephen
Hmm, teaching a scout to have "confidence" without giving him practical hands-on how-to lessons sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Most of the people who need rescuing every year started out with tons of confidence and no survival skills. If you want scouts to thrive in the woods, you need to teach them (at a minimum) how to properly use their gear, what they need to carry, how to recognize signs of things like hypothermia... and possibly take it a step further to teach them how to survive with little or no gear in emergency situations.
To do that, you can't just show them drawings in a book. They need to learn it by doing it. And that does mean going into the woods and actually building a shelter of natural materials, at least once.
Confidence FOLLOWS lessons like these. If you sit in the clubhouse and get them to chant "I can do it!" without actually teaching them how, you're setting them up for disaster.
Hmm, teaching a scout to have "confidence" without giving him practical hands-on how-to lessons sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Most of the people who need rescuing every year started out with tons of confidence and no survival skills. If you want scouts to thrive in the woods, you need to teach them (at a minimum) how to properly use their gear, what they need to carry, how to recognize signs of things like hypothermia... and possibly take it a step further to teach them how to survive with little or no gear in emergency situations.
To do that, you can't just show them drawings in a book. They need to learn it by doing it. And that does mean going into the woods and actually building a shelter of natural materials, at least once.
Confidence FOLLOWS lessons like these. If you sit in the clubhouse and get them to chant "I can do it!" without actually teaching them how, you're setting them up for disaster.
I agree with you completely, you teach confidence through skill building and hands on experiences like camping, backpacking, wilderness survival training etc.
I mean if you weren't teaching through those skills then I'd say it wouldn't be scouting.
-Stephen
berninbush
11-17-2008, 16:26
:) Agreed. Sorry, your first post almost sounded like the opposite to me. Must have read it wrong.
You bring up fire building a lot.
-Stephen
That's because I frequently encounter them built carelessly and sometimes burning unattended. We've also had a few get away from hikers recently.
The regs differ considerably from place-to-place in Pennsylvania depending upon who owns or manages the land and are not well known, even to many who live here.
That's because I frequently encounter them built carelessly and sometimes burning unattended. We've also had a few get away from hikers recently.
The regs differ considerably from place-to-place in Pennsylvania depending upon who owns or manages the land and are not well known, even to many who live here.
Well in the context of scouting and LNT that should be part of planning. To know the local regulations when it comes to Fires, Camp site location, Human waste and finally even what types of fuels are allowed. Some camps do not allow liquid fuels and if they do storage is almost always restricted.
Teaching scouts to plan all aspects even ones we forget about is part of the knowledge they need.
-Stephen
First let me say that I am not against the scouts building these "shelters". These skills can be life saving under certain circumstances.
I just wondered why they are left standing. I guess only the scouts and their leaders know for sure, probably left to see if its still standing whenever they may return.
This last one I saw was at the Ten Mile River lean-to,about twenty feet behind the lean-to, just made a couple days earlier( I could tell by the freshness of the ferns used for the sidewalls) Another shelter was about half built about ten feet away from the first.
There is also one or two up at Silverhill campsite, one of them has been standing for quite a while.
shelterbuilder pointed out earlier at least on the portion of the AT with which we're most familiar in Pennsylvania it's not Scouts who are building these makeshift shelters, it's locals who never heard of LNT and expect to return and use them again.
Sometimes I've dealt with these structures myself when I've found them, since I know they're not permitted. Perhaps a better course of action would be to report them to the local AT maintaining club who can then deal with them and those who built them as they wish.
shelterbuilder
11-17-2008, 22:58
shelterbuilder pointed out earlier at least on the portion of the AT with which we're most familiar in Pennsylvania it's not Scouts who are building these makeshift shelters, it's locals who never heard of LNT and expect to return and use them again.
Sometimes I've dealt with these structures myself when I've found them, since I know they're not permitted. Perhaps a better course of action would be to report them to the local AT maintaining club who can then deal with them and those who built them as they wish.
Dealing with the structure is easy enough - I do that myself most of the time. But, in order to deal with the person(s) responsible, you have to: a) catch them in the act of construction, and b) be an LEO. Volunteers don't have the authority to do anything but talk to the people, and we all know that this is (mostly) a waste of time. In fact, if you bring it up in the wrong way, you can even put yourself in a somewhat unsafe position, if the folks decide to get hostile about it.
Making a report to the local maintaining club is probably a good idea, if only so that there will be an "incident report" on file.
Thank you for adding your comments. Handled the wrong way, taking matters into one's own hands can have unintended and undesirable consequences.
SOG
Wise Old Owl
11-17-2008, 23:40
Great thread though guys.
Great thread though guys.
I was thinking the same. This one may have some miles left in it.:)
First let me say that I am not against the scouts building these "shelters". These skills can be life saving under certain circumstances.
I just wondered why they are left standing. I guess only the scouts and their leaders know for sure, probably left to see if its still standing whenever they may return.
This last one I saw was at the Ten Mile River lean-to,about twenty feet behind the lean-to, just made a couple days earlier( I could tell by the freshness of the ferns used for the sidewalls) Another shelter was about half built about ten feet away from the first.
There is also one or two up at Silverhill campsite, one of them has been standing for quite a while.
I didn't get the impression you were against those shelters. You were pretty clear about what you meant.
In my opinion, the AT Is not the proper setting for it. There are plenty of private scout campgrounds that are capable of a better setting.
As for removal yes that should be done by the builder adhering to LNT.
-Stephen
Monkeyboy
11-18-2008, 09:27
First, I'd like to state that I have been a Scoutmaster for over 18 years.
I can honestly say that I very SERIOUSLY doubt that it was scouts that did this and left it. Why?
1. LNT is drilled into scouts from day one. Shelters would not be left and trees would never be cut down. We never cut wood. We get it off the ground. ALWAYS.
And before some of you start talking about "messes" left behind.......I've seen some of the garbage left behind by alot of us so-called "respectable" hikers.
It's usually my scout group that gets to hump it back down the mountain for you so that it can be properly thrown away.
2. What scout (or scoutmaster) in his right mind is going to want to go on the Appalachian Trail, hike miles on end to reach a beautiful setting in the middle of the woods with nothing around and go "Hey, let's work on Wilderness Survival Merit Badge"!!! Get real. The kids are beat, tired, hungry and all they would want to do is eat supper, relax around a fire and hit the rack. Guaranteed. I've taken both my troop and my Venture Crew on the AT, and NEVER had they ever wanted to do anything but that. It's the times that they are at a Scout Camp as to when they are running around with all that energy to expend.............not after they just got done hiking ten or twenty miles.
Monkeyboy
11-18-2008, 09:41
I would also venture to say that it is more likely to be some ultralite, Surviorman-wanna-be that thinks his skills are so great that he can skimp on the extra three pounds for a tent or one pound for a tarp, and thinks he can live forever with just his canteen and a survival knife, trapping squirrels and rabbits on the trail so as not to carry the weight of food.
Just MHO.
shelterbuilder pointed out earlier at least on the portion of the AT with which we're most familiar in Pennsylvania it's not Scouts who are building these makeshift shelters, it's locals who never heard of LNT and expect to return and use them again. * * * Perhaps a better course of action would be to report them to the local AT maintaining club who can then deal with them and those who built them as they wish.
Here's a link to the "Ewok Village" cleared up earlier this year in eastern PA: http://picasaweb.google.com/wsteinmetz/ATCleanUpNearBlueMtSkiArea#slideshow
gold bond
11-18-2008, 10:38
With all this being said....why do we have shows and I mean popular shows like Man vs. Wild, or Survivor man? Straight our survival shows. What is the first thing either say? Fire is one of the most important things you can have. It brings confidence and hope. It lifts your spirits and makes a dire situation seem a little more better. I bet those Mountain climbers on Mnt Hood last year would have loved to have had a fire!
Monkeyboy
11-18-2008, 10:46
One of my biggest problems with some of the shows now is that people are losing their fear and common sense, because they feel that since they saw Survivorman do it, they can do it too.
My biggest gripe was with Steve Irwin. The man was constantly picking up poisonous snakes.
We were at Summer Camp one year when a water moccasin strolled into one of the restrooms. One boy thought that he could just go pick it up by the tail and throw it out. His reasoning........he saw Steve Irwin do it, so he could do it.
So here we have one of the most poisonous, most agressive snakes in Florida and this boy is just going to waltz over and pick it up, because he's seen it on a television show.
berninbush
11-18-2008, 11:08
And that was exactly my point about building confidence without building skills.
"Don't try this at home" tv shows will always carry that risk. It's not just survivor shows, but some of my other favorites like Mythbusters. I don't think it means that such shows should not be aired. They're a valuable source of learning about science/ nature/ survival/ whatever. But they need to keep repeating, as most of them do in one form or another, "We have special training in this. Do not attempt what we are doing unless or until you also have special training. Watching this show does not qualify as special training."
Unfortunately, there will always be the people who do not take that message to heart. Maybe the best thing to do with them is to give them some actual training so they understand the dangers, and proper precautions, of whatever they're doing.
At the start of this thread I read where the Boy Scouts where at fault for building these structures. Why the Boy Scouts are always assumed to be wrong on the trail. Why are they always bashed on the trail? My experiences with them have always been good. I have also noticed how active they are in trail projects. Which is more than most? If some one has witnessed something a troop has done wrong. Why did they not correct it? They appreciate the outdoors and are open to new ideas. I would like to see more Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts out hiking.
I remember when at summer camp my troop and likely all the others did some sort of conservation project to help improve the camp before we went home, not only because we felt an obligation to leave things better than we found them, we were looking forward to benefiting from our improvements and those of other troops next year.
Archy, I did not say these were definatley made by scouts, I just wondered if it was in fact a merrit badge project. I too think there should be more kids outside, learning some life skills away from their video games.
When the scouts do overnight trips, are they required to make a "shelter" as a project?
I have been to many campsite and shelters that have these "shelters" made from a sapling, sticks and usually ferns.
I am just guessing they are from the scouts, from the evidence left in the shelter registers, saying that scouts stayed there recently.
Why don't they take them down?
Are they being taught LNT?
shelterbuilder
11-19-2008, 08:38
Here's a link to the "Ewok Village" cleared up earlier this year in eastern PA: http://picasaweb.google.com/wsteinmetz/ATCleanUpNearBlueMtSkiArea#slideshow
These pics are amazing! From what I know about advanced treehouse-building, I can see that whoever built these structures was no amateur. Not condoning, just observing....
God, I hope that THIS type of encroachment doesn't catch on!:eek: