cold weather - how can I stay warm?

[karoberts]

I have not done tons of cold weather backpacking because whenever it is below 65 degrees and I stop moving, I am freezing and miserable.

I am wanting to do some cold overnight backpacks this winter.

How can I stay warm after I stop moving? How can I stay warm at night?

Here is what I already do:
I have a 15 degree down bag and sleep on a foam pad.
I get into dry fleece pants and top and a hat before I sleep.
I wear dry socks to bed.
I pee before going to bed.
I bring a Nalgene of hot water into the sleeping bag with me.

I am still freezing! What additional gear or clothes should I get? Price is not a factor.

[Mrs Baggins]

We found ourselves in 20 degrees on Gooch Gap last year, without decent weather gear and had to be taken out and back to the Hiker Hostel. Now we have down sweaters (full zip down jackets), -5 REI Sub Kilo Plus down bags, better fleece, balaclavas, smartwool base layers, and windproof gloves.

[bloodmountainman]

Make sure you eat good warm foods like soups or stews. Hot beverages are a plus also.

[mts4602]

1st: Are you still cold when you are in your sleeping bag? If so, how cold was it, and what kind of bag do you have?

2nd: It's all about layering as I'm sure you already know. Here is what I use in camp during the winter.

-Expedition weight poly pro bottoms (you could use wool), Smartwool, North Face, ect
-Fleece pants
-Rain pants (with fleece pants is quite warm) you could also get a pair of montbell thermawrap pants...I plan to

-Expedition weight poly pro Top
-Montbell Thermawrap Parka/jacket
-Rain jacket

-fleece/knit hat
-bavalclava (however that is spelled)
-poly pro glove liners
-heavier snow gloves

-Wool Socks

This keeps me pretty warm, of course, sometimes its just too darn cold to not be in your sleeping bag...

[sheepdog]

I use two sleeping bags in real cold weather. One inside the other.

[bigcranky]

I am still freezing! What additional gear or clothes should I get? Price is not a factor.

Still freezing at what temperature? Your bag is rated to 20-F -- what kind of bag is it? (Plenty of "20 degree" bags are, um, optimistically rated.)

My wife is always cold. Always. I still try to drag her out in fall and spring, with mixed results. She's okay down to freezing or so, but it took some work. She always wears and carries far more clothing than I think necessary for any given trip -- but she uses it all.

When you say you want to do winter overnights, what sort of conditions do you have in mind?

[karoberts]

Last time I was freezing was a few weeks ago an it was in the upper 30s all night. My bag is an REI Sub Kilo (just checked and is rated at 20, not 15).

[gaga]

get a good quality emergency blanket and roll and cover your sleeping bag with it like a Taco...;)

[Egads]

I am still freezing! What additional gear or clothes should I get? Price is not a factor.

Start a fire, Eat some hot food and tea. Set up a tarp to block the wind. If that doesn't work buy a better bag with a lower temp rating. Buy one with a rating for ~20* below the lowest temp you expect to camp in. You can't go wrong with Montbell, Western Mountaineering, or Feathered Friends. Do not store your bags packed, else your insulation will damage. Store your bag fully lofted.

You did not say if you are using a tent, hammock, or shelter. Use a tent. A Hilleberg will keep you a few degrees warmer than outside the tent.

If you decide to use an emergency blanket, use it inside your bag. You need to keep your vapor barrier between you and your insulation, else your insulation will wet out.

One last resort, go camping in the tropics.

[Froggy]

More food, and include a decent amount of protein.

Next, make sure that your camp site is out of the wind, and if you're using an open shelter or semi-open shelter (i.e., one of the various tarps or tarptents) ensure that it's oriented properly so there's no air movement on you.

Try a thicker pad.

Pull the hat down well over your ears, and your forehead if possible.

If your bag is a mummy bag, close up the head opening as much as possible. It should cover your eyes and the top of your head, leaving an air passage so you can breath.

If your bag has a zipper baffle and other baffles like a neck baffle, make sure they are oriented correctly.

Consider wearing your other clothes, particularly a jacket and long pants, to bed with you.

If you're camping on the snow, try using a space blanket as a ground cloth.

[sticks&stones]

pack up fast, down jacket, firepit, hot liquids, balaclava, keep movin, down bootys, floofy bag, and stay outside of heated structures as much as possible

[gsingjane]

I second the tent idea. Sleep in a small-ish tent with a nice warm person. Two people can create terrific body heat (no not that kind!). My daughter and I were out last April and it got extremely cold at night, into the teens (much colder than we were geared for) but we actually stayed mostly warm, sleeping curled up in our tent together. It traps the body heat.

Jane in CT

[Cool AT Breeze]

get a good quality emergency blanket and roll and cover your sleeping bag with it like a Taco...;)
You will wake up soaking wet.

[Father Dragon]

I do a lot of sub freezing hiking so ...

A few ideas that don't require the purchase of expensive gear

Load up on fats before turning in. Fats burn slow and will provide your body's power plant with sustained fuel to stay warm.

Wear clothing that does not compress to your body. Air is the best insulator and often times people make the mistake of wearing too much to bed thus reducing the amount of air under the many layers of garments. I like the nylon pants that have the mesh lining in them.

Think warm thoughts .... I'm not joking at all.

Try adjusting your sleeping bag so that the zipper is under you. I do this so the draft tube seals better.

Pick your campsite well. Contrary to what many people think, lower elevations are often colder than mid elevations due to the convection of air currents in the mountains at night. Stay away from tight valleys.

Chemical hand warmers work great!


Hope this helps!

[Lyle]

What kind of "foam pad" are you using? Needs to be a thermarest or closed cell foam. Open cell foam will not insulate. Adding a second pad will add a lot of warmth.

[take-a-knee]

A 20 degree bag should be five-plus inches thick for a normal sleeper, add an inch for a cold sleeper, add an inch for each ten degree decrease in temperture. It it is thinner than that, it isn't a 20 degree bag.

[Jim Adams]

You didn't state whether you are cold before you get into your bag. A sleeping bag does not create heat, it stops heat loss. If you are already cold when you get in, then it will take alot of metabolism to warm you up while just lying there.
Put on DRY clothes and a down jacket as soon as you stop hiking then do as most of the others here have suggested....eat, eat, eat and drink warm liquids. Definitely sleep in a tent, wear some wool undies and a balaclava and make sure your neck baffles are pulled tight. Run 100 yards up the trail and back before turning in but DON'T make yourself sweat and don't use a vapor barrier type blanket.
If you do all of these things then your 20* bag should keep you comfy down to at least 10*F outside.
A good mat is very important for insulation from the ground.

geek

[Summit]

I agree with Jim and others that food in your belly is essential when it's very cold. I sometimes keep something I can snack on in the tent in the event I wake up cold (usually toward early morning). Gotta keep your body's metabolism pumping out heat.

I find what works best for me in a good sleeping bag is less clothing. A mummy works best if it has your body heat to work with. Keeping your body heat confined inside layers of clothing can make the bag seem to never get warm. I rarely wear more than a long sleeve synthetic t-shirt and polypro long underwear (infrequent).

[JAK]

I have not done tons of cold weather backpacking because whenever it is below 65 degrees and I stop moving, I am freezing and miserable.

I am wanting to do some cold overnight backpacks this winter.

How can I stay warm after I stop moving? How can I stay warm at night?

Here is what I already do:
I have a 15 degree down bag and sleep on a foam pad.
I get into dry fleece pants and top and a hat before I sleep.
I wear dry socks to bed.
I pee before going to bed.
I bring a Nalgene of hot water into the sleeping bag with me.

I am still freezing! What additional gear or clothes should I get? Price is not a factor.I am cold adapted, but some days less so than others.

1. Food does seem to help. Try different foods to see what works best for you.

2. Also if you are hotter to begin with it is easier to stay hot, so you need a jump start now and then, like resting in your sleeping bag while drinking hot soup or hot chocolate.

3. Try wearing more clothes of course, but also more even coverage. Your might be feeling the cold in your gut, but it might actually be your legs and hands and head that is losing the most heat.

4. Consider a wool sweater as a mid-layer, and/or wool long johns as a baselayer. Your body gives off moisture even at rest, which gives up heat to the wool when it recondenses. The wool will eventually lose the moisture and this heat with it, but it acts as a thermal flywheel and might help trigger your body to stay warmer, especially through periods of changing levels of activity like around camp.

[JAK]

Oh yeah. I read this recently.

Try sleeping at home with less covers and a cooler room temperature at night.

[River Runner]

Get some down booties to wear to sleep in. The Sierra Designs Down Sleepies are awesomely warm, unfortunately don't seem to be available for purchase anymore. :(

Also, if there is room in your bag insulated pants and an insulated jacket such as the Montbell thermawrap or Down Inner Parka are awesome. The nicest thing is that when you get up in the morning, you are still wearing part of your warmth. It makes that dreadful moment of leaving your warm bag for the cold cruel world a lot more bearable. They are also very warm for wearing around camp in the evenings.

These along with a thin inner layer such as a lightweight set of merino long john pants and shirt and a mid-weight fleece shirt are very warming and very versatile.

As others have noted, calorie intake, especially fats is important to keep warm through the night.

This sleeping pad adds a lot of warmth for only a little weight:

http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/thinlight.html

[River Runner]

Here are two more products that add a lot of warmth for the weight:

http://www.thewarmfront.com/main.html

http://www.defeet.com/product.php?id=145

The problem might also be your bag. I think I have read about a lot of users of the sub-kilo feeling it is not as warm as it is rated.

[JAK]

I thought I might do a little math on the wool base layer.
How much heat is stored in the wool from the heat you sweat out?

Wool can gain 35% of it weight in moisture before 'feeling wet'. It still insulates well beyond that, but if you get wool wet and squeeze it out really well enough to feel dry, it might still have about 35% moisture. So how much heat is stored. Say long wool undwear that is 1.5 pounds bone dry. It might capture and store 1/2 pound of moisture. I doubt that that much is given off by perspiration when not overdressed. There is always some. Might be enough to feel warmer.

[taildragger]

Fart in your bag, it'll help warm the air

[Summit]

On the other hand 'k' if it's merely low metabolism that causes you to be colder than normal, you may find the only answer is much warmer sleeping bag and clothing (more layers) than others get by with.

[bigcranky]

Last time I was freezing was a few weeks ago an it was in the upper 30s all night. My bag is an REI Sub Kilo (just checked and is rated at 20, not 15).

1. My daughter has a Sub Kilo. It's a nice bag, but next to a similarly-rated Western Mountaineering or Marmot bag, it's awfully thin. My personal feeling is that it should be rated to about 30 or 32.

2. Bags with horizontal baffles let the down shift toward the sides. My wife tried a succession of great bags, and froze in every one of them. She would always end up with a large area with no down on top of her bag, usually at her hip. We finally got her a Montbell Super Stretch Down Hugger, and that solved the problem. (The stretchy part doesn't matter -- it's the construction. Montbell bags have vertical baffles as well as horizontal baffles, which keep the down in little pockets so it can't shift. HUGE difference.)

3. You can mitigate some of your problems by adding insulation inside your bag. Drape an open down jacket over your torso and hips. Wear down booties. Add a second sleeping pad for more insulation underneath (crucially important, and often overlooked.) However, the Sub Kilo may be too narrow-cut for this to work well.

4. Get a warmer bag. If you are going to be out in sub-freezing weather, IMHO the Sub Kilo is barely adequate for a warm sleeper. You are not a warm sleeper, apparently. The 15-F rated Montbell bag should be a good choice for temps around freezing or maybe into the high 20s. If it's going to be in the teens or less, then the 0-F rated bag would be a better choice. For a less expensive option, the REI Kilo Plus bag isn't bad, however, you could look for sale prices on the Mountain Hardwear Phantom 0 and the Marmot Lithium, too.

[gsingjane]

JAK said something itneresting which I have read as well. Back say 70 or 80 years ago, when people were setting out to explore the very high peaks such as Everest, of course there was nowhere near the amount of high-tec gear that there is now. People had to make do with layers of fur and/or wool. What they had to wear, considering the conditions they faced, was incredible. And, mostly, they were getting ready to go trekking while living in England, where the climate hardly duplicates that of Nepal.

As I understand it, the early climbers did a lot to acclimate themselves physically to the cold - they'd take cold baths or showers and then go outside in the cold air, roll aruond in the snow while very lightly dressed, and just generally try to spend as much time as possible in cold conditions, with not enough protection, so they could build up their physical and emotional resistance.

I'm not suggesting you try any of this, but it might be good to consider turning down your home thermostat and trying to get used to things being a bit chillier. (I actually do this in reverse in the summer, to acclimate myself to hotter and more humid conditions for running, I drive with the windows up and no a/c, etc.). And, having things colder at home will also help with that nasty heating bill!

Just a thought - if you try it, LMK how it works out!

Jane in CT

[dradius]

I read through (most) of this thread and didn't see anything about the specific tent you're using. That can make a pretty significant difference too. I am going to assume since you have previously mainly camped in warm weather, that you have a 3 season tent. Get a decent 4 season tent, as small as you can for your needs. A cheap option is the Kelty Quartz 1 which you can find online for less than $140. Sealing up a 4 season and having a rain fly that covers the entire tent makes a HUGE difference vs. a 3 season.

[shelterbuilder]

Being cold is rarely caused by one thing - it's usually a bunch of little things that add up to that nasty, cold feeling. Lots of good input here so far.

The thickness of your sleeping pad is a big item. Make sure that you're using closed cell foam, not open cell foam. Consider using two pads together for more insulation underneath.

Remember that the insulation in your sleeping bag compresses under you, becoming almost useless. (That's why you need a pad in the first place.) Temperature ratings are good for comparing the warmth of two bags made by the same company, but almost useless for company-to-company comparisions, because there is no real industry standard for ratings. It sounds like you might be a "cold sleeper" (like me), so if you decide to buy a new cold weather bag, look for a bag that's rated for 20* colder than the coldest temperature that you EVER expect to encounter.

You can try using a sleeping bag liner as a "cheap fix" for the problem, but if you're a cold sleeper, I doubt that this will really help. What MAY work is to buy another bag - one that's not too heavy, is rated as a summer bag and is cut VERY full inside. Use this bag OVER the one that you already have. For this trick to work well, the summer bag has to have enough room inside for the insulation of the other bag to loft up as fully as possible.

By the way, in the wintertime, fat people have a definite advantage over skinny people, because they're carrying more "internal insulation". I've been at both ends of the spectrum, and I know that I have a harder time staying warm with less body fat on me. That's where the "layered look" comes into play for me - lots of layers that I can put on or take off as needed. I sweat a lot when I hike (summer or winter), so I like to hike with only enough layers on to feel "comfortably cool" - not cold, not warm. While you're hiking, try to make it as easy as possible for your sweat to escape. (You don't want to be visibly sweating when you hike - if you are, then you're either overdressed, or you're hiking too fast.) Then, when you stop, put on some layers AT ONCE to keep from getting chilled. The layers will also give you a back-up for your sleeping bag - if the temperature really drops overnight, you have some nice warm layers that you can wear inside the bag.

Good luck.

[Fiddleback]

I have not done tons of cold weather backpacking because whenever it is below 65 degrees and I stop moving, I am freezing and miserable.


Good suggestions and I have no meaningful additions to the above. But I want to point out that there is much to be gained from acclimation and changing your own personal mind set about the cold.

We all know people from warm regions feel cold in what other folks would consider temperate temps. I think this is at the heart of acclimation. Case in point -- you say you're miserable when the temp drops below 65° yet my own house temp is set well below that. There are reasons why I do this; energy and cost savings, I like the 'cool', potential solar gain later in the day, etc., but, the point is, you can get use to lower temps relatively easily and quickly. I have a friend who craves the heat...born in Panama, school years in southern California, much of her career in southern Florida, long-time San Antonio resident... When she comes to visit she sits on the couch in long johns, sweaters, a cap, and wrapped in a blanket. Within a week or two, the underlayers and the cap are gone.:sun

Simplistic, I know, but you can change your reaction to cold. When I lived in Texas I couldn't afford to cool the house lower than 78°...right now, my living room temp is 62° and I'm in short sleeves.:)

I think my own acclimation is a major reason why I can overnight in hard freeze temperatures with a relatively light sleep system.

FB

[karoberts]

I live in inland Orange County, CA. It was a comfortable 85 today. We haven't had day under 80 since April. Perhaps this is why I find anything under 65 uncomfortable.

[volleypc]

I do not know why, but it seems if I can keep my feet and my hands warm the rest of my body is generally ok. I always use Merino Wool Socks and if I do not need much use of my hands I wear Pearl Izumi Lobster Gloves.

Lastly, I am a big believer in handwarmers. I throw a couple packets in my sleeping bag with me at night and they work well.

[Chance09]

i didn't read all of these posts so i'm not sure if it has been mentioned or not but try eating right before bed and then if you wake up in the middle of the night have a quick snack. This helps to keep your metabolism going and should keep you a bit warmer. I spent a few nights at the Red River Gorge climbing and it got down to single digits while i was in a 32 degree bag. Without food before bed i was cold, with food i stayed fairly warm during the night.

[JAK]

I just had a large cup of hot tea, no milk no sugar, no caffiene. It's amazing how much it will warm you up even though the BTUs are not that much. It must kick start the metabolism into overdry, just by being a hot liquid. Say it was 450ml, or about a pound, and heat to say 40degF above body temperature when you drink it. That is only 40 BTU, or about 10 kcal, and only about 10% of what you body cranks out in an hour when at rest. It definitely gives you a boodt though. Hot water bottles can give alot of heat also, though less directly. Say 2 litres, or 4.4 pounds of water, heat to 100 degF above body temperature. That would be about 440 BTU or 110 kcal, which is alot of heat compared to a sleeping body, which for a small person might be only 60 kcal per hour. I can crank out about 100kcal per hour and still get a good nights sleep. I don't use the water bottle trick much but I will drink alot of hot soup, or tea, and don't mind getting up to pee.

[Compass]

Some people make the mistake of putting their face in the bag. Exhailing in the bag will initially seem like it is warming you up but after a few minutes of this the excess moisture will greatly decease the "R" value(insulation) of the bag. If your face is cold cover it with extra layer of breathable clothing(fleece) not Gore or windstopper.

A trick I use is to put my head in the body/torso part of my fleece shirt and wrap the sleeves around my neck to help seal drafts and keep my moist breath out of my bag. The sleeves fill in the smallness of the neck. When nature calls just slip your head through the neck hole.

Side sleeping is very draft prone. I can be warm on my back but uncomfortable, switch to my side and 10 minutes later be cool to cold. Switch to my back and be warm again.

Last in cold weather especially a day with big miles food is critticle. I have found cookies are a perfect blend if fat and carbs for warmth.

[kayak karl]

After reading posts, if you are having problems staying warm on the trail, you must be having the same problems at home. do you keep your heat above 68? do you need a sweater when others are ok in a shirt? my mom would be wrapped in a blanket and my dad in his shorts watching the boob tube. there was a 20 degree difference between them. :) like others said, maybe you need to OVER prepare.:-?

[Wags]

i'm guessing you're skinny. fat people stay warmer, longer, than skinny folk - works against them in teh summer. my old man is 6' 225 and i'm 6' 170 and he teases me when i get cold faster than him. i smile on the inside :D

i'm going to offer some suggestions i didn't see mentioned yet...

-take the time to clean yourself off a bit before bed. wet a bandana and wipe down your face, neck, armpits and feet. i don't know the science behind this but it helps w/ warmth

-consider doing a short set of exercise (pushups or situps or jumping jacks) before jumping into your sleeping bag. i'm not suggesting you blast out an hour workout, just enough to get your heart pumping a bit (but stopping short of sweating). this will help

-throw a fleece or some extra pieces of clothes in your sleeping bag after you get in (around your leg area if there's room). this will help take up some of the dead air space resulting in a warmer you

***BONUS - all of these suggestions are free of cost


i like and use the suggestions of a hot water bottle

[Dogwood]

The best informative on target thread I've read in awhile.

[take-a-knee]

A lot of good info in this thread, if none of it works for you, a trip to your MD to have your thyroid checked out is in order.

[verber]

I have collected a number of suggestions of sleeping warm (http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/backpack/good-sleep.html#temp) in my page of getting a good night sleep. From a weight for warmth perspective, it's most efficient to go with a warmer sleeping bag that most supplements. As to how much of a sleeping bag... my suggestion is not to worry about what bags are rated as. Rather figure out how much loft you need. This is best done by running a few experiments to see what you need to stay warm. If you bag isn't warm enough, try renting something warmer at REI or A16 and see if it's good enough. If that's not warm enough to renting something with even more loft. Once you found a bag which is comfortable at a particular temp take the difference between that and 70F (where most people can sleep without covers) and divide by the measured loft... no you know how much loft you will need for a given temp (more or less). The standard rule of thumb is that you will need around 2in of loft per 20F, where most people need nothing at 70F... so a bag for 50F would need 2in, etc. Of course, people varied a lot. My WM Versalite keeps me comfortable down to 0F wearing just a base layer. My wife thinks it's a great 40F bag. If I zipped it up at 40F I would roast.

[Pickleodeon]

cayenne pepper works well, in addition to food. You can buy it in capsules with the vitamins/supplements. If you take one or two at night, it increases blood flow and metabolism and gives you that "sweater on the inside" feel, like alcohol. Plus, you don't really taste the cayenne because of the capsules, or, if you're into spicy foods, pour on some extra hot sauce at dinner.