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HeadiesHiker11
11-20-2008, 14:56
I have to write a paper for my American Literature class and chose to write about Henry David Thoreau. I was wondering if fellow Thoreau fans find any connection between the Walden Woods years and a thru hike. The relation i was going for is based upon Thoreua being fed up with the modern world and living in the wilderness. Although Thoreua was living a primitive lifestyle he was still just a few miles from town. The AT seems like a similar version of escaping into the wilderness while at the same time not deserting the modern world alltogether.

Comments and ideas would be helpful

emerald
11-20-2008, 15:07
While there may be similiarities, I think the two are very different. It's difficult for many to appreciate just how much 2000 miles of hiking is until one has actually done it. Instead of becoming intimate with a single location, a through hiker is constantly in motion, experiencing new places all the time and there is not as much time for contemplation as some might believe. It involves total immersion and commitment to the task.

Manwich
11-20-2008, 15:09
I don't think you're going to find a direct link but you can certainly run with the ideas of the parrallels of thru-hiking versus Thoreau's intentions.

The neat part about HYOY is that you can pretty much make up any reason you want to justify your hiking, which is useful for American Literature Class.

Mags
11-20-2008, 15:57
This book may be a good start:

http://www.amazon.com/Searching-Thoreau-Trails-Shores-England/dp/1884592449/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227211034&sr=8-1

I juts read it ~2 wks ago.

It does not deify the man. Rather it shows how Thoreau dealt with the wilderness (warts and all). Sometimes eloquently, sometimes sanctimoniously. Always thought provoking.

From the AT perspective, talks about Maine (Katahdin esp), the Whites and Greylock.

Lone Wolf
11-20-2008, 16:01
I have to write a paper for my American Literature class and chose to write about Henry David Thoreau. I was wondering if fellow Thoreau fans find any connection between the Walden Woods years and a thru hike.

no connection at all

emerald
11-20-2008, 16:16
Read "Walking." You may find it has more in common with an AT through hike than Walden.

You can easily find it online. Someone likely will post it or locate and post it here yourself for those who come along later and read this thread.

Mags
11-20-2008, 16:38
http://thoreau.eserver.org/walking.html

emerald
11-20-2008, 16:51
See also "Ktaadn." You may not have known the last water source for a northbound AT through hiker is Thoreau Spring on Katahdin's tableland.

rafe
11-20-2008, 17:00
Not much connection, in my opinion. Even in Thoreau's day, Walden Pond wasn't much of a wilderness, and Thoreau didn't really "rough it" very much. He could saunter into town for tea and cakes whenever he felt like it.

dradius
11-20-2008, 17:01
no connection at all
only 701 more to go

weary
11-20-2008, 17:42
I have to write a paper for my American Literature class and chose to write about Henry David Thoreau. I was wondering if fellow Thoreau fans find any connection between the Walden Woods years and a thru hike. The relation i was going for is based upon Thoreua being fed up with the modern world and living in the wilderness. Although Thoreua was living a primitive lifestyle he was still just a few miles from town. The AT seems like a similar version of escaping into the wilderness while at the same time not deserting the modern world alltogether.

Comments and ideas would be helpful
It's going to be a bit of a stretch. But Henry was a lover of mountains. He was among the early explorers of Mount Washington and Katahdin, and walked from Concord to Mt. Greylock. All peaks now traversed by the Appalachian Trail.

Thoreau's mountain essays have been collected and commented on by William Howarth, in "Thoreau in the Mountains," published by Farrar, Straus, and Giroux in 1982.

Also useful may be "An American Landscape" excerpts from Thoreau's Journals, selected by Robert L. Rothwell, published by Marlowe & Company in 1991. Many of the selections describe Thoreau's comments and experiences on the mountains of New England.

Weary

Mags
11-20-2008, 17:50
It's going to be a bit of a stretch. But Henry was a lover of mountains. He was among the early explorers of Mount Washington and Katahdin, and walked from Concord to Mt. Greylock. All peaks now traversed by the Appalachian Trail.




If you look at it form the angle of discovering "wildness" (as opposed to wilderness) that can be found on the AT, then examining Thoreau's haunts could be helpful in an abstract way.

The first book I referenced asks that question. In the very developed lands of New England, can wilderness be found? (sometimes) Can wildness be found? (absolutely)

A good question to ask on an AT hike. Something Thoreau pondered in the not-so-wilderness cabin at Walden. But he did find wildness...

Could be starting point for a paper on the Appalachian Trail. Is it wilderness? Why or why not? Does it have wildness like Thoreau talked about? Does a person find this type of wildness on their own thru-hike? Etc.

weary
11-20-2008, 17:57
Read "Walking." You may find it has more in common with an AT through hike than Walden.

You can easily find it online. Someone likely will post it or locate and post it here yourself for those who come along later and read this thread.
Excellent advice. As is Mags. "Could be starting point for a paper on the Appalachian Trail. Is it wilderness? Why or why not? Does it have wildness like Thoreau talked about? Does a person find this type of wildness on their own thru-hike? Etc."

Weary
__________________

kayak karl
11-20-2008, 18:12
no connection at all
if you can connect buffets and hiking, i think he can do this:D

emerald
11-20-2008, 18:33
Some would have us believe transcendentalism lead to the conservation movement. I'm not sure a case can be made for it since transcendentalism was a movement confined to writers and in its time didn't have a broad appeal whereas conservation was more about political changes which altered how we interact with the landscape.

It may be there were two distinct schools of thought attempting to grapple with the same issue in different ways.

It find it interesting: in our attempts transcend the world, we are drawn back to it -- what's wild and its natural beauty -- which connects us to the world and those places where we have these experiences. Our natural response is or should be to revere and protect these places. In the end, we come back to where we began in more ways than one.

Lone Wolf
11-20-2008, 18:52
only 701 more to go

you have a thing for me honey? you follow my posts a lot ;)

weary
11-20-2008, 19:15
Some would have us believe transcendentalism lead to the conservation movement. I'm not sure a case can be made for it since transcendentalism was a movement confined to writers and in its time didn't have a broad appeal whereas conservation was more about political changes which altered how we interact with the landscape.

It may be there were two distinct schools of thought attempting to grapple with the same issue in different ways.

It find it interesting: in our attempts transcend the world, we are drawn back to it, what's wild and its natural beauty, which in turn connects us to the world and those places where we have these experiences. Our natural response is or should be to revere and protect these places. In the end, we come back to where we began in more ways than one.
Don't underestimate the power of the printed word.

Henry in one of his essays (walking?) argued that every town should have a thousand acre preserve that would have no economic benefits, but would be just a place for people to walk and observe, allowing nature do whatever it wished.

When I proposed that our town create a land trust 35 years ago, I had Thoreau's recommendation in the back of my mind. So far our land trust is 800 acres and counting.

Of course as I've reported, others have joined the effort and we now have 5,000 acres of protected lands. Most of our townspeople seem to think this is a great accomplishment. But I'm still working on another couple of hundred acres to meet my special goal.

All I'm suggesting is that in one town, at least, Transcendentalists have had an influence. It's my guess that transcendentalists have had a major influence everywhere. That's why Henry's, and his mentor, William Waldo Emerson's, essays are still being read, and taught in the colleges and universities.

I sense that Thoreau is read more seriously than the leaders of the movement. Certainly, the Thoreau Society is pretty unusual, encompassing both academics and the little old ladies in tennis shoes that come along on the walks I guide. I love it when they come on the walks. It gives me an excuse to slow down. I find it suddenly difficult to keep up with 20-year-olds these days.

WEary

John B
11-21-2008, 08:32
Not much connection, in my opinion. Even in Thoreau's day, Walden Pond wasn't much of a wilderness, and Thoreau didn't really "rough it" very much. He could saunter into town for tea and cakes whenever he felt like it.

Sounds just like the AT.

dradius
11-21-2008, 09:19
you have a thing for me honey? you follow my posts a lot ;)
well cupcake, with 19,000+ posts it is kind of hard not to. plus, I find the bulk of your posts so incredibly insightful I can't help but to comment on them. either way, I've finished :banana

Lone Wolf
11-21-2008, 10:19
ok sweets

emerald
11-21-2008, 13:59
Even in Thoreau's day, Walden Pond wasn't much of a wilderness, and Thoreau didn't really "rough it" very much. He could saunter into town for tea and cakes whenever he felt like it.


Sounds just like the AT.

Sure, in some respects. Still, I would love to see the thread where we have an intelligent discussion about the term wilderness and what it means especially as it relates to the eastern US. I don't believe I've seen that thread, but it would be of no small value.

Marta
11-21-2008, 14:08
Not much connection, in my opinion. Even in Thoreau's day, Walden Pond wasn't much of a wilderness, and Thoreau didn't really "rough it" very much. He could saunter into town for tea and cakes whenever he felt like it.


Sounds just like the AT.


That's what I thought...

I don't know how deeply into this you're planning to go.

Superficial similarities: some solitude, material simplification, monotonous diet interspersed with visits to town, not town but not wilderness living...

Superficial differences: leaving your home and family behind, defined goal

emerald
11-21-2008, 14:44
I PMed HeadiesHiker11 to encourage participation in this thread.

Lone Wolf
11-21-2008, 15:06
intelligent discussion about the term wilderness and what it means especially as it relates to the eastern US.

there ain't none in the east

bpitt
11-21-2008, 15:18
"The AT seems like a similar version of escaping into the wilderness while at the same time not deserting the modern world alltogether. "

WHAT?!?!?!?

You mean to tell me there was a freakin' Waffle House just a few miles away? And I had to eat granola?

emerald
11-21-2008, 15:32
there ain't none in the east

I suppose that's a matter of opinion and how one defines the term. There are places not far from my home where the influence of man is not evident, probably even to a well-trained eye. I was wondering if you might care to offer us another one sentence definition?

John B
11-21-2008, 15:56
I suppose that's a matter of opinion and how one defines the term. There are places not far from my home where the influence of man is not evident, probably even to a well-trained eye. I was wondering if you might care to offer us another one sentence definition?

Are you saying that there are places near your home that have never been timbered?, no sounds of cars in the distance or contrails in the sky? even out of reach from the almighty cell phone, Blackberry, or PocketMail?

I've only hiked in sections from Amicalola to Atkins, VA, but I don't think that I was ever more than a day's walk from a road where I could get a hitch to a town if need be. I've heard that even the vaunted "100 mile wilderness" is anything but -- plenty of USFS roads and even a couple of nice resupply points.

I'm not sure about a definition of 'wilderness,' but I'd think that one characteristic might be being more than a day or so away from a Waffle House.

ki0eh
11-21-2008, 16:16
There are places not far from my home where the influence of man is not evident, probably even to a well-trained eye.

...until you think of the missing chestnut, the passenger pigeon...

Spock
11-21-2008, 17:34
These are good reads for the connection between Thoreau and the AT. It is fair to say that Benton MacKaye was inspired by Thoreau's ideas.

Thoreau, Henry David, Material Faith, Thoreau on Science, ed. Laura D. Walls. Houghton Mifflin, Boston, 1999. p. 35. Miscellaneous Botanophilists

Thoreau, Henry David, Maine Woods, http://eserver.org/thoreau/mewoods.html
(a hypertext version to save you a trip to the library - which you are obviously loath to take)

Thoreau, Henry David. Walking, First World Library, Fairfield, IA. 2003. p.1.

weary
11-21-2008, 22:13
.....I've heard that even the vaunted "100 mile wilderness" is anything but -- plenty of USFS roads and even a couple of nice resupply points.

I'm not sure about a definition of 'wilderness,' but I'd think that one characteristic might be being more than a day or so away from a Waffle House.
The nearest USFS road is 150 air miles from the "100-mile-wilderness."

The only national forest in Maine is around 30,000 acres or so on the New Hampshire border. That's why we created the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust, to provide buffers for the narrow trail corridor through Maine.

Until some long neglected state lands were rediscovered 35 or 40 years ago, virtually the entire trail in Maine except for Baxter Park, was on private land. Starting in the 1980s, the National Park Service bought the trail corridor -- average width 1,000 feet.

Except for the relatively few miles of state land, beyond the trail corridor it is all private land, once mostly owned by the paper industry. Now mostly owned by developers. The exceptions: a few family trusts still dedicated to growing trees, a few sections bought by Conservation groups like AMC, Quimby Foundation, Trust for Public Lands, and the Nature Conservancy, and a few thousand acres purchased by the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust, including the summit of Abraham.

All the roads one sees in the 100-mile-wilderness are private roads, formerly logging roads, increasingly development roads. Except for major state and town highways, the same is true for most of the roads that cross the trail in Maine.

WEary www.matlt.org

HeadiesHiker11
11-21-2008, 22:21
Sorry I Haven't responded I have been away for a few days. School just seems to stress me out too much so I ended up skipping a few days and doing a short section.

But there are some great ideas and I will incorporate several of the other books mentioned. Another idea of mine is looking at how Thoreau was trying to simplify his life in everyway and not living a wasteful life. Please correct me if i am wrong but this seems to me like something all of us do while hiking.

emerald
11-22-2008, 09:34
Are you saying that there are places near your home that have never been timbered, no sounds of cars in the distance or contrails in the sky, even out of reach from the almighty cell phone, Blackberry or PocketMail?

Yes, to all of your questions! The real world consists of an infinite number of small spaces and short intervals of time. It is often surprising what may be found by someone who has an open mind and is observant.

Anywhere you are alone and don't bring the "almighty cell phone, Blackberry or PocketMail" is totally out of their reach. It's a matter of choice. Try opting out if you think it an improvement.

I'll hold further comments regarding wilderness and its definition as they were not solicited specifically by the person who began this thread and I don't have the time to give it what it would require. It's an interesting concept as is its affect upon people.

rafe
11-22-2008, 10:55
I've heard that even the vaunted "100 mile wilderness" is anything but -- plenty of USFS roads and even a couple of nice resupply points.

I've only walked it once, and that was 18 years ago. At the time, it sure felt like wilderness -- or close enough to pretend. White House Landing didn't exist back then. I saw no automobiles or paved roads between Baxter park and the trailhead to Monson. I met maybe two dozen nobo hikers in the seven days it took me to hike that distance. None were day-hikers. There were numerous vistas where one could look out and see none of the usual signs of civilization -- no roads, no houses, no factories or power lines. You were literally, miles from nowhere.

weary
11-22-2008, 12:39
I've only walked it once, and that was 18 years ago. At the time, it sure felt like wilderness -- or close enough to pretend. White House Landing didn't exist back then. I saw no automobiles or paved roads between Baxter park and the trailhead to Monson. I met maybe two dozen nobo hikers in the seven days it took me to hike that distance. None were day-hikers. There were numerous vistas where one could look out and see none of the usual signs of civilization -- no roads, no houses, no factories or power lines. You were literally, miles from nowhere.
All still very true. There are a couple of permanent gravel roads. Most of the rest are maintained only when there is a harvest operation -- or, lately, a development underway.

There are one or two new subdivisions near Monson, but the rest of the 100 miles remain wild. The only ominous happening is in the middle section, near where AMC has purchased 37,000 acres. A Canadian outfit that has a record of clearcutting and then selling house lots, has bought 30-40,000 acres, between Katahdin Iron Works and the trail.

But of all of Maine, the 100-mile-"wilderness" seems destined to be the most protected. Nearly 90,000 acres south of Baxter State Park are already in the hands of conservation groups. Another 30,000 acres is near a purchase and sale agreement if the money can be raised in a declining economy. The current governor has made preservation of the area a prime goal of his administration.

Most of the rest of Maine is pretty open game for development. Three or four new wind projects near the trail are either underway or planned by a corporation founded by a very popular former governor. And most of the land adjacent to the narrow trail corridor is now owned by developers.

The state has purchased a couple of million acres of no development easements, but almost none are in the near viewshed of the trail. It was this lack of concern for buffers for the trail that prompted our creation of the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust.

Weary www.matlt.org

mudhead
11-22-2008, 13:05
Golden Road is paved.

Not sure what year it was paved, but it has been awhile.

hopefulhiker
11-22-2008, 17:38
You might want to look up "transcendalism" There is not so much a physical connnection with "Walden" and the AT as a philosophical one of a spirit of conservation and appreciation of nature.

Kirby
11-22-2008, 18:18
http://travel.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/travel/escapes/19american.html

Article about Thoreau and tracing his journey through the Maine woods.

Kirby

Tinker
11-22-2008, 20:02
I have to write a paper for my American Literature class and chose to write about Henry David Thoreau. I was wondering if fellow Thoreau fans find any connection between the Walden Woods years and a thru hike. The relation i was going for is based upon Thoreua being fed up with the modern world and living in the wilderness. Although Thoreua was living a primitive lifestyle he was still just a few miles from town. The AT seems like a similar version of escaping into the wilderness while at the same time not deserting the modern world alltogether.

Comments and ideas would be helpful

You had me figured out all along:D.

My other inspirations were the Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett series on television which I watched as a kid.
A society which is dependent upon technology for its fulfilment isn't where I find my joy. John Muir was also one of my inspirations.

lysol
11-22-2008, 22:17
The AT runs right over Mt. Greylock, and there are several stone slabs with quotes from authors along the trail at the peak. I can't be sure, but thought one might have been from Thoreau. This may not be the "connection" you're looking for, but the quote may be a nice way to open or close your paper with a tangible connection to the AT.

I did a quick google search and couldn't find a listing of the quotes on top of Mt. Greylock. Good luck.

lunchbx
11-22-2008, 23:34
headies. although im sure the majority of people who responded saying that there are no paralells between thoreau and the AT have done a thru hike, I dont think they have read and fully understood his work. The similarities are many if you ask me. The point of Thoreau's work was to inspire the thought process in others that he was currently (at the time of his writing) experiencing. the AT can produce the same results as Thoreau's experiment in life and mind. The point is detatchment and reflection, and that is exactly what the AT affords me.

futureatwalker
11-25-2008, 16:27
Thoreau:

"I went to the woods because I wised to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practice resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive life into a corner..." (Walden)

AT plaque on Springer Mtn:

Appalachian Trail
Georgia to Maine
A footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness


For me, at least, Thoreau's motivation and the motivation to hike the AT are quite similar.

alanthealan
11-25-2008, 18:03
sounds Just Like The At.


+1

weary
11-26-2008, 15:34
Golden Road is paved. Not sure what year it was paved, but it has been awhile.
I think of the Golden Road as marking the end of the 100-mile-wilderness. It's not a part of the wilderness. There is nothing paved -- as yet -- in the wilderness. The last time I was in the area, I think I remember that the Golden Road paving ended as it passed around the end of Chesuncook Lake, well to the west of the trail crossing. The paving started around 25 years ago. I'm not sure whether it's all paved as yet. I think -- and hope -- not.

Weary

lysol
06-20-2009, 21:07
Well, it was itching in the back of my head, and just for closure's sake, I did confirm my suspicions of a 'concrete' connection between Thoreau and the AT.

As you head over Mt. Greylock NOBO, a stone at the side of the trail is etched with, "It were as well to be educated in the shadow of a mountain as in a more classic shade. Some will remember, no doubt, not only that they went to college but that they went to the mountain." HDT

I don't carry a camera while hiking, but a great father son tandem, "The Boston Boys" took a photo. It was raining most of my section hike, so I just kept motoring and didn't copy the other Thoreau quote that specifically referenced Mt. Greylock.

Call me anal, but just wanted to post in case somebody in the future is looking for a good Thoreau/AT connection.

JAK
06-18-2010, 07:45
I like to find connections also.

I think Lone Wolf was largely correct, as usual, when he said there was no connection at all between Walden Pond and an AT thru-hike, in that there are many works of Thoreau which are more directly and more essentially connected to an AT thru-hike. The essence of Walden Pond, in a single word, is minimalism. The essence of an AT thru-hike, for most and at best, would be a 'journey' which might, or might not, lead them towards minimalism. You can always find connections. I can't recall if Thoreau climbed Katahdn before or after building Walden.

One might find some interesting connections between Dostoyevsky and Thoreau. Also some notable differences, with one representing the 'metaphorical east' or civilization and coming from the eastern world of 19th Century Russia, and the other representing the 'metaphorical west' of noble savagery and coming from the western world of 19th Century America. Alaska changed hands from Russia to the United States during both of their lifetimes. I am not sure if either was familiar with the works of the other. Both of course were well educated, and considered philosphers as well as writers, but with Dostoyevsky also being a pioneer of human psycology as well as existentialism. Perhaps the greatest difference between the two, was that while Thoreau was spending time at Walden Pond, Dostoyevsky was doing time as a political prisoner.

"Beauty will save the World" - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
"Wildness is the salvation of the world" - Henry David Throreau

JAK
06-18-2010, 07:51
Holy Crap.bI wasn't the first to try and make a connection between Throreau and Dostoyevsky. That doesn't surprise me. But it is interesting that I found the same interesting connection of Thoreau at Walden Pond, and Dostoyevsky as a political prisoner. This writer puts it all much better, of course...

http://eng.1september.ru/2002/26/1.htm

weary
06-18-2010, 11:16
If you look at it form the angle of discovering "wildness" (as opposed to wilderness) that can be found on the AT, then examining Thoreau's haunts could be helpful in an abstract way.

The first book I referenced asks that question. In the very developed lands of New England, can wilderness be found? (sometimes) Can wildness be found? (absolutely)

A good question to ask on an AT hike. Something Thoreau pondered in the not-so-wilderness cabin at Walden. But he did find wildness...

Could be starting point for a paper on the Appalachian Trail. Is it wilderness? Why or why not? Does it have wildness like Thoreau talked about? Does a person find this type of wildness on their own thru-hike? Etc.
It doesn't fit my dictionary's definition of wildness, but I find wildness of the kind Thoreau describes in Walden on our small town's land trust preserves.

The greatest sense of wildness for me is found on a pondside trail in our 260 acre Center Pond Preserve. Like Thoreau's hut, the trail is just across a pond, from a main thoroughfare. In Phippsburg it's the main road into town. For Henry Thoreau it was the railroad from Boston skirting the Walden Pond shore, and heading west.

Even more than the sounds of the train echoing over Henry's tiny hut, the sounds of the road are always present across from Center Pond. But so is an overpowering sense of wildness returned. Just a hundred yards away from the Center Pond Trail is the foundation of an old farm house. Two other house foundations are found within a half mile.

Unlike always wild Walden, our pond was manmade, to provide ice for the cities to the south. I find the contrast with the roads and the evidence of a former civilization heightens the sense of wilderness. Our woods are mostly recovered farm fields. Henry's were just beginning recovery. So after a century and a half, protected Phippsburg woods are probably wilder than his mid 18th century experience.

We environmentalists are fond of proclaiming that "development is forever," that once building happens, it remains. One part of my mind, believes that absolutely. Another part, however, sees the wildness that has replaced development. The giant trees, the pileated woodpeckers seeking dinner on dying stubs, the signs of bear, coyote, mink and beaver, the lady slippers, and gaywings. George Orwell's "doublethink" is alive and well in Phippsburg.

I found a similar wildness when I walked the Appalachian Trail a decade and a half ago. Those who see no wildness on the trail are not looking close enough.

Weary

Slack-jawed Trog
06-18-2010, 20:22
Those who see no wildness on the trail are not looking close enough.

Weary

Those who see no wildness on the trail-or elsewhere-are just plain not looking.

OTOH, one's perspective is colored by one's experience:
I grew up in a small CT city, Hartford during the 60's-70's. In the schoolyard across the street from our 3-family flat lay an un-mowed field (meadow?) and a wooded hillside/knoll. As kids we chased rabbits in that field (caught a few), and 'possums and 'coons which we didn't try to catch...too many teeth. :D

IMHO, wildness is where you find it--YMMV