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View Full Version : The slumping economy - impact on the trail?



Slo-go'en
11-20-2008, 22:50
After watching more gloomy news about the economy tonight, I got to wondering how this might affect the number of hikers on the trail this year. I guess there is no way of telling until after the fact, but anyone changing thier plans because of the economy?

Jim Adams
11-20-2008, 22:54
Why?????
You can't stay home as cheap as you can hike!

geek

weary
11-20-2008, 22:58
After watching more gloomy news about the economy tonight, I got to wondering how this might affect the number of hikers on the trail this year. I guess there is no way of telling until after the fact, but anyone changing thier plans because of the economy?
I don't know about hiking. But maintenance over the next few years is likely to be reduced. Maintaining Clubs since last spring have been warned about declining trail help, now and into the future.

The current crises give me no reason for optimism.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
11-20-2008, 23:12
There will be some folks who'll feel that this is the wrong time to walk away from a job or a job offer, or who may opt to stick with a "secure" position, even if it's one they don't much care for.

On the other hand, there are all sorts of other folks who have been forced into early retirements or buy-outs who may fell that this is a good time to do something for themselves, especially if they've thought a long time about thru-hiking.

And in truth, for some folks, assuming they don't have mortgage payments or young kids, going hiking for six months might actually find them spending LESS money than they would if they were living at home for that period.

So all things considered, I don't think the economy will make much difference.
Some folks will postpone their trips because of the present situation, but then some might find that present circumstances permit, if not encourage them to head out in 2009.

Blue Jay
11-20-2008, 23:19
There will always be a large majority of people who will always find reasons to stand behind the fence. There will always be a group of people who will find holes in the fence. It's your choice.

hopefulhiker
11-20-2008, 23:23
Well Jack, There will be a lot more people without mortgage payments next year! Also going into a deflationary spiral will help out with those shuttle costs! And chances are many people will have more time on their hands too! I think 2009 would be a great year to go hiking, provided that there is not a drought!

sasquatch2014
11-21-2008, 00:03
Well I for one think that if the housing market continues to stay as bad as it currently is or gets even worse where I am I might just go and do more hiking it sure beats trying to sell houses for people who still believe that their home is worth tons more than the market will support. It just goes to show that the old adage of you cant fix stupid is true. Not sure what rock some o fhese morons have been living under but it must be burried deep. I talked witha couple a month or so back that not only felt that their house was worth almost $200,000 more than the current market figures showed but also when told the market most likely will not support much more than what they had paid for it years ago and that they should be happy if they can get that even with all the money they had put into it for upgrades/remodel. The wife looked at me and said and we nee d make a profit on it as well you know!

Yep the trail sounds good. At least when faced w is level of stupid you can always just keep walking and not make it seem too rude. When I told them that I could not sell their house for the amount that they wanted they were upset but ( I am a real Jack@$$ sometimes) I told them they might want to give a call to this other agent who I gave them his name and number because sometimes he can make it happen. Let him deal with these idiots I'll call them back later once they have had a good healthy dose of reality.

Yep the it is not going to be a bright economic year or two or three but hey walking is pretty cheap. Hey look on the bright side with the lighting of the purse strings maybe there will be less super loud motorcycles to have to hear while trying to enjoy the woods. There is little of the trail in CT where on a weekend you cant hear all the bikes up and down RT 7

Christus Cowboy
11-21-2008, 11:51
There will be some folks who'll feel that this is the wrong time to walk away from a job or a job offer, or who may opt to stick with a "secure" position, even if it's one they don't much care for.

On the other hand, there are all sorts of other folks who have been forced into early retirements or buy-outs who may fell that this is a good time to do something for themselves, especially if they've thought a long time about thru-hiking.

And in truth, for some folks, assuming they don't have mortgage payments or young kids, going hiking for six months might actually find them spending LESS money than they would if they were living at home for that period.

So all things considered, I don't think the economy will make much difference.
Some folks will postpone their trips because of the present situation, but then some might find that present circumstances permit, if not encourage them to head out in 2009.

Good synopsis Jack..... I spoke with one thru-hiker who told me that his "mimimalist" lifestyle made him pretty "recession proof". I'm sure there will be some who will be affected with food prices and transportation perhaps...

bloodmountainman
11-21-2008, 11:57
Might as well hike on....... Gonna be a tough 4 years, possibly 8 :mad:

Tilly
11-21-2008, 12:08
I definetely have apprehension about quitting my job, mostly because I worry about getting in somewhere else. Things have slowed down quite a bit, and I wonder if people will be hiring as much as they have previously.

OTOH, I am pretty comitted to at least moving out of IN, so I'll probably be quitting no matter what, but I'd be lying if I said the economy isn't on my mind.

yappy
11-21-2008, 12:34
yeah, i hope to hike the Azt ... but the airfare etc from from AK does make me think twice. We might be hit hard up there too... which usually does'nt happen. I am saving my change... and looking at my gear. doubt i will buy anything new.. though, i would love that tt sublite. Yikes !! We live VERY simply up there... which does help.

cyclefiend2000
11-21-2008, 12:40
the industry i work in has been struggling for a while now. if things get worse, i will probably get laid-off with no hope of getting a new job for the foreseeable future.

on the bright side, if i have tons of time off, i will probably go on a long distance hike that i otherwise wouldnt have been able to do without quitting my job.

Slo-go'en
11-21-2008, 14:53
I suppose the failing economy would affect middle aged people more than the younger and older hikers, which are traditionally the bulk of the wantabe thru-hiker crowd.

If you've lost your job, your house and car, but still have a few dollars saved, living on the trail could be a fairly economical way to spend the summer. Though if you have a spouse and kids, that could be a problem.

But maybe there will be more middle aged hikers on the trail next season than usual. More squatters hanging out at shelters trying to collect overnight fees?

bpitt
11-21-2008, 15:14
During my section hike this past spring, I met several hikers who were doing it because of the crappy economy. One guy said he couldn't find a job, was tired of looking, so decided to hike. Another, an older couple, had lost work because of bad economy, so decided to hike the trail. They were already semi-retired and into outdoor adventure stuff, but never had the time to hike the whole trail till now.

Hne913
11-21-2008, 17:40
I'm hoping the economy will be on the up-and-up when I get back from my thru next year... one way I can see the economy taking a toll on our hikers (speaking of myself here) is that I have been saving and saving and i'm counting on getting a bonus next month... but there's a good chance with the economy the way it is that bonuses will be lowered or not offered at all this year. Eek. Unlike a lot of the hikers here I still have lots of stuff I need to get for the hike..I could use the extra money for gear.

rootball
11-21-2008, 18:22
I had planned hiking the BMT from Springer to Smokies this past Spring. Then the greedy b$%tards screwed up the economy and stole all our money with gas prices, ect...
I had to postpone my trip until another time. I knew better than to take off work with things looking so gloomy, so I passed on the trip and worked to save money for the slow times-- and here they are.
I blame a lot of it on greedy executives- they pay themselves quite well, but the workers get barely enough to live on -- its the American way.
I worked for a guy from Belgium once and he told me that there was too much of gap between the wealthy and the poor in this country - I have to agree with him.
I hate to sound gloomy, but I don't think we have seen the worst yet -- unless of course you happen to one of those that got a multi billion dollar bailout - then things must be looking pretty good.
I still have my local area to go to on weekends, so I stick my middle finger up at the gov and all the rich greedy a-holes, they'll never keep me out of the woods, well... at least not till lumberprices go up and they chop all the trees down again.


I would love it the government would stay out of our lives -- they suck!

Rockhound
11-21-2008, 18:25
the economy isnt so much the problem as is peoples attachment to money. If you feel you need the 3-4 bedroom house, plasma TV, 2 new cars in the garage etc... I could certainly see how the current economy could have a negative effect. If one lets go of all the material BS, they might not have as much money but they won't feel poor. I dropped out of the rat race the day we invaded Iraq. I have not driven a car or had a "real job" in all that time and I've been happier ever since and I have wanted for nothing. I ask everyone who reads this to look around them and ask, "how much of this crap do I really need?

coldspring
11-21-2008, 18:53
Stock up on a few years worth of trail food, trail footwear, clothing, first aid, gear repair materials. etc. If they devalue the currency we'll probably lose everything as we know it anyway.

Bare Bear
11-21-2008, 18:56
I agree it is cheaper to hike than stay home. When I am home I date and spend a fortune. When I hike, I just wear out a few pairs of shoes.

BumpJumper
11-21-2008, 19:03
Then Barry....you are dating the wrong girl.:D

Bare Bear
11-21-2008, 19:50
'dating the wrong girl' is the story of my life but I try to stay positive about the situation. It will be nice to get back to the woods for the shake down hikes in Dec.............up your way BTW.

BumpJumper
11-21-2008, 21:48
Bring it on Bare! Where at? Want company?

Plodderman
11-22-2008, 11:37
Not changing plans to much as I will be hiking form Springer to Fontana next May and I never really spend a lot on hiking anyways.

Panzer1
11-22-2008, 21:16
If I get laid off, I may be out on the trail. Which means I could be starting in January, burrrr... But I'm going to hold onto my job as long as I can. I don't advise anyone with a worthwhile job to quit in this bad economy.

Panzer

STEVEM
11-22-2008, 21:40
If I get laid off, I may be out on the trail. Which means I could be starting in January, burrrr... But I'm going to hold onto my job as long as I can. I don't advise anyone with a worthwhile job to quit in this bad economy.

Panzer

Good Advice. I've lost jobs during bad economic times before. I've been without a job three times for about 7 months total in the last 37 years.
Each time I went directly to "panic mode" to find a new job immediately.

If it happens again I plan to take at least a month to hike and camp. As bad as things are now it would be a waste of time and energy to panic. There are no jobs for anyone let alone old geezers.

woodsy
11-22-2008, 21:51
The slumping economy - impact on the trail?
More impact from me for sure, less work= more hiking. Besides, economy here is always slumping...status quo.
Can get to 100 miles of AT and many Blue blazes for under $15.00 round trip right now.

LIhikers
11-22-2008, 21:52
It looks like I'll loose my job early in 2009. If I do, I plan to hike. I can follow a series of trails that will take me from New York to Ohio, where my son lives.

Tilly
11-23-2008, 11:20
I am amazed at the amount of people who say that hiking is cheaper than regular life for lack of better description.

They come out the same for me...not to mention that you have no positive income when hiking!

chief
11-23-2008, 12:41
the economy isnt so much the problem as is peoples attachment to money. If you feel you need the 3-4 bedroom house, plasma TV, 2 new cars in the garage etc... I could certainly see how the current economy could have a negative effect. If one lets go of all the material BS, they might not have as much money but they won't feel poor. I dropped out of the rat race the day we invaded Iraq. I have not driven a car or had a "real job" in all that time and I've been happier ever since and I have wanted for nothing. I ask everyone who reads this to look around them and ask, "how much of this crap do I really need?
Wow, the war in Iraq is your excuse for being a total loser!

Johnny Thunder
11-23-2008, 12:47
Wow, the war in Iraq is your excuse for being a total loser!

Wow, anonymity on the internet is your excuse for being a total *******.

Serial 07
11-23-2008, 13:03
well said mr. thunder, well said...

Christopher Robin
11-23-2008, 15:42
Yes I know what you are saying about the ecomony, I was going to start NOBO in March. I've all the gear I need, food also. It's is the money to get their or how to get their is my bigest channel. Anyone going mid March?

nitewalker
11-23-2008, 15:45
i live up here in the northeast and when the freakin line stops at dounkin doughnut then we will really be in a crisis. we have 2 D&D shops that are a quarter mile apart and both places are never empty. at 2.00$ for a coffe it tells me alot of people are spending way too much on stuff they do not need. is the economy really that bad?

AMERICA RUNS ON DUNKIN

nitewalker
11-23-2008, 15:53
also, i was on the rte 95 heading home from georgia section hike. we stoped at one of the rest areas that had a mcdonalds. i went in and had to wait 20 min in line to purchase a chicken select meal, 6 peice. i received my meal and was rewarded with a total cost price of 8.50$ or so. ok i did buy the meal and waited 20min like a bozo only because i had not eaten since noon. the lines in this place were crazy..again is the economy that bad or is it the people who enable the economy to be that bad..8.50$ for a mcdonalds meal...............uggh

rafe
11-23-2008, 16:41
is the economy really that bad?

By most measures, yes. The "Dunkin Donuts" index is a measure of stupidity... against which, even the gods struggle in vain.

mudhead
11-23-2008, 18:32
Dunkin is a treat. For me.

daddytwosticks
11-23-2008, 19:01
Don't dis the Dunkin Donuts dudes....:)

superman
11-23-2008, 19:14
also, i was on the rte 95 heading home from georgia section hike. we stoped at one of the rest areas that had a mcdonalds. i went in and had to wait 20 min in line to purchase a chicken select meal, 6 peice. i received my meal and was rewarded with a total cost price of 8.50$ or so. ok i did buy the meal and waited 20min like a bozo only because i had not eaten since noon. the lines in this place were crazy..again is the economy that bad or is it the people who enable the economy to be that bad..8.50$ for a mcdonalds meal...............uggh

I get the senior discount on my cup of gourmet coffee!:banana

Rockhound
11-23-2008, 19:28
Wow, the war in Iraq is your excuse for being a total loser!
chief, you are welcome to come by Standing Bear anytime and we'll discuss our political views

Lone Wolf
11-23-2008, 19:44
By most measures, yes. The "Dunkin Donuts" index is a measure of stupidity... against which, even the gods struggle in vain.

stupidity is idiots buying Fourbucks coffee. a buttload of them are closing. Dunkin keeps opening up more

Blue Jay
11-23-2008, 19:55
Wow, the war in Iraq is your excuse for being a total loser!

Even though you call yourself a failure, that's still harsh and that's saying a lot coming from me.

nitewalker
11-23-2008, 20:11
i have to admit my guilt... i struggle with an addiction to D&D coffee. well maybe not an adiction but i am guilty of an occasional visit..lately i have been avoiding the place. i try and brew my own maxwell houseevery morning. at 5.50$ for a two pound can u cant beat it. the can lasts about a month. 5.50 x 12 = 66.00$ as opposed to 2.00 x 365 days = 730.00$ for a years worth of coffee....that could be a house payment for some people. i know a few people who have lost their homes but yet smoke butts and drink d&d everyday...go figure......live as simple as you can and everthing should work itself out in most cases..hopefully........peace

mudhead
11-24-2008, 08:17
Check the Dunkin coffee in the bags. 2lbs for $12-14. Beware the flavored kind.

hopefulhiker
11-24-2008, 08:24
I just baked my first batch of oatmeal in the slow cooker over night.. Anyone tried baked oatmeal? Oatmeal is not just for the trail anymore.....

nitewalker
11-24-2008, 08:45
Beware the flavored kind.


i have heard this be4.......no flavor 4 me, strait up is the way to go.:D

weary
11-24-2008, 11:35
the economy isnt so much the problem as is peoples attachment to money. If you feel you need the 3-4 bedroom house, plasma TV, 2 new cars in the garage etc... I could certainly see how the current economy could have a negative effect. If one lets go of all the material BS, they might not have as much money but they won't feel poor. I dropped out of the rat race the day we invaded Iraq. I have not driven a car or had a "real job" in all that time and I've been happier ever since and I have wanted for nothing. I ask everyone who reads this to look around them and ask, "how much of this crap do I really need?
Well, I've looked around and I don't see much that anyone would buy. How much is a 20 year old TV and a bunch of ancient music stuff worth. How about a sofa I bought used and has now been used by our only indoor cat for sharpening his claws. The house and two acres has some value, but this is not a good time to get the value out.

Forty years ago we bought an oak table with six leaves at an auction for $4.00. It has some value now, but we used all six leaves last night when a bevy of kids, grandkids and significant others (12 in all) came over for lobster stew. I guess we'll keep the table as long as they all hang around, which seems likely, given the economy. BTW lobsters are selling for $3.29 a pound from the fishermen, so it wasn't a luxury stew.

I augmented it with a gingerbread blueberry cake, using frozen berries my daughter picked two years ago.

My riding mower still has a few bucks in it -- if I can figure out how to replace the broken belt.

Weary

Tilly
11-24-2008, 11:42
i have to admit my guilt... i struggle with an addiction to D&D coffee. well maybe not an adiction but i am guilty of an occasional visit..lately i have been avoiding the place. i try and brew my own maxwell houseevery morning. at 5.50$ for a two pound can u cant beat it. the can lasts about a month. 5.50 x 12 = 66.00$ as opposed to 2.00 x 365 days = 730.00$ for a years worth of coffee....that could be a house payment for some people. i know a few people who have lost their homes but yet smoke butts and drink d&d everyday...go figure......live as simple as you can and everthing should work itself out in most cases..hopefully........peace

D&D sells it's own coffee in bags if you want to just brew it at home yourself. It's sold either ground or whole bean if you have a grinder.

D&D isn't bad, if you bring your own mug they will fill for $1. (Well the one near my house did, anyway.) $4 for a cup is a bit much when you can buy a pound of good coffee for $7-8.

superman
11-24-2008, 15:54
the economy isnt so much the problem as is peoples attachment to money. If you feel you need the 3-4 bedroom house, plasma TV, 2 new cars in the garage etc... I could certainly see how the current economy could have a negative effect. If one lets go of all the material BS, they might not have as much money but they won't feel poor. I dropped out of the rat race the day we invaded Iraq. I have not driven a car or had a "real job" in all that time and I've been happier ever since and I have wanted for nothing. I ask everyone who reads this to look around them and ask, "how much of this crap do I really need?

I need all of it and more for religious reasons. I belong to the American religion known as the Religion of Stuff. It works like this. When you die, you stand before St Peter who asks you what stuff you have. If you have enough stuff and the right stuff, you get right into heaven. If you don't they send you back to earth to work at Wal-Mart until you've paid your penitence and accumulate enough of the right stuff.
There is actually a guy’s version of this religion that you should know about. It works the same way except it is called the Religion of Tools.
:D:banana:D:banana:D:banana

Blissful
11-24-2008, 16:12
I just baked my first batch of oatmeal in the slow cooker over night.. Anyone tried baked oatmeal? Oatmeal is not just for the trail anymore.....


I just saw that recipe in a magazine - is it any good?

Blissful
11-24-2008, 16:16
We're being good and skipping Black Friday. Gonna spend it with family.

Digger'02
11-24-2008, 16:36
We're talking about the impact "on the trail" right?

-Many volunteers this year have been unable to attend trail crew because of gas prices and the inability or unwillingness to take time off.

-How are donations to non-profits effected by a recession?

-How does a recession effect national budgets for things like the Forest Service and Park Service?

As far as 'impact on hikers' goes....so ArcTerx will sell less 100$ t-shirts. I think if anything, there might be a few less hikers out there. Other than that, I think we should be thinking about weather or not whatever leaky shelter gets a new roof etc..

leeki pole
11-24-2008, 17:22
We're being good and skipping Black Friday. Gonna spend it with family.
We're going to see those #25 Ole Miss Rebels whip the Mississippi State Bulldogs. Family as well. Beer, brats and football beat the mall anytime. Do you realize who beat the Florida Gators in the Swamp? And LSU in Death Valley? Yep. Go Rebs.

weary
11-24-2008, 17:33
....-How does a recession effect national budgets for things like the Forest Service and Park Service?....
It predates the collapse of the economy, but MATC -- and I assume other maintaining clubs -- were told last winter not to expect the thousands of federal dollars we had been getting for our trail crew leaders, and caretakers and ridge runners. We were told that the President's budget proposed cutting the available funds by something like 80 percent.

That may change under the President elect, who suggested today he planned to increase money for things that would create new jobs and keep people employed in existing jobs as part of his economic stimulous package.

I suspect that overall, national parks and forests will get more money to employ people, but probably less money to buy land.

That worries the Maine Appalachian TRail Land TRust. We had been hoping for an increase in money to buy land as we continue our efforts to protect the High Peaks region around Saddleback, and south of Bigelow.

Weary www.matlt.org

Rockhound
11-25-2008, 09:52
I need all of it and more for religious reasons. I belong to the American religion known as the Religion of Stuff. It works like this. When you die, you stand before St Peter who asks you what stuff you have. If you have enough stuff and the right stuff, you get right into heaven. If you don't they send you back to earth to work at Wal-Mart until you've paid your penitence and accumulate enough of the right stuff.
There is actually a guy’s version of this religion that you should know about. It works the same way except it is called the Religion of Tools.
:D:banana:D:banana:D:banana
Im not sure if i completely understand. Does Walmart represent limbo, purgatory or hell ?

Rockhound
11-25-2008, 09:59
A side note on the D&D coffee. They are still using styrofoam cups. Even if the economy was wonderful, I feel this alone is an excellent reason to boycott D&D. Ive written to them on this issue. no rersponse. I understand D&D coffee is like crack. I'm guilty also, but when I'm up north and go into a D&D to get my "fix" I always bring my own cup.

Lone Wolf
11-25-2008, 10:01
what's D&D?

Rockhound
11-25-2008, 10:03
what's D&D?
Dunkin' Donuts. Chain of coffee, donut shops that is extreemly successful in the northeast

Lone Wolf
11-25-2008, 10:05
i'm well aware of Dunkin' Donuts. was born and raised in rhode island. Dunkin' & Donuts i never heard of

Rockhound
11-25-2008, 10:13
i'm well aware of Dunkin' Donuts. was born and raised in rhode island. Dunkin' & Donuts i never heard of
I was born and raised in New England also Wolf, and for as long as I can remember Dunkin' Donuts has been abbreviated D&D.

weary
11-25-2008, 12:34
I was born and raised in New England also Wolf, and for as long as I can remember Dunkin' Donuts has been abbreviated D&D.
I've tried D'nD coffee a few times. It didn't strike me as anything special. On the road I tend to stop at McDonalds, or Burger KIng. At home I use nothing but 8 O'Clock. Currently $6.50 a pound at my local supermarket. Though I tend to stock up when its on a third off sale.

Someone gave me a grinder 20 years ago, so it's always fresh ground, if not fresh roasted beans.

Weary

Marta
11-25-2008, 12:59
We're being good and skipping Black Friday. Gonna spend it with family.


We'll be spending Black Friday freezing our butts off in the Smokies. The family thing has to wait for Christmas, when the kids will all come together from their various locations.:)

Anything but shopping!!!

superman
11-25-2008, 13:02
Im not sure if i completely understand. Does Walmart represent limbo, purgatory or hell ?

I suppose you could substitute Massachusetts for Wal-Mart for a more obvious meaning.:-?

mudhead
11-25-2008, 13:30
Do I get to choose between Mass and Walmart?

Rockhound
11-25-2008, 15:22
Do I get to choose between Mass and Walmart?
talk about the lesser of 2 evils.

superman
11-25-2008, 15:43
Do I get to choose between Mass and Walmart?


I suppose you do. As you know, it's the spirit of religion that's important. Amen:)

Although, in terms of "economics vs the AT thru hikes" it may be the magnetic push or pull of the nuts toward or away from Florida. This is just another new theory I'm working on.:D

superman
11-25-2008, 19:39
Ok, here's my economic stimulation proposal. In order to stimulate the economy across the country people should be paid to thru hike and thus spread money across the length of the various trails. The money could be doled out at the major re-supply towns... at the "all you can eat buffets." Many of you thought of me as just another pretty face...but this shows I got depth.:D

Toolshed
11-25-2008, 20:31
I like Dunkin Donuts, but my company sponsors coffee shop which feature Starbucks and Seattle's Best. Large is $1.50 - Quite a great deal. I drank my share of free workplace-machine coffee for 30 years not to mention brewing coffee in a wool sock while in the army on manoeuvres, so I treat myself now and again.
People DO NOT have an attachment to money. They HAVE an attachment to Style, Credit and Useless Crap. If anything they have a DETACHMENT to money.
Most do not really know what they make or spend because it comes right into their bank and then they electronically transfer it right to their credit cards or pay other bills.

Many would be surprised to really look at a paycheck and see how much the government now takes each pay period - Most are fixated on Net Pay.

Many would be surprised to look at their total annual Credit Card interest and see how much they actually paid, for stuff they cannot show any value for.

I've spoke to younger people in my office about how to become a millionaire and the habits it takes to be a saver, but all save one, really aren't interested - They have been brought up on immediate gratification and think the good times will keep coming - Many simply do not unerstand the theory of going without. A wake up Shock might be painful in the short run, but perhaps good for the country in the long run.

Toolshed
11-25-2008, 20:34
PS I am always amused to walk past the Video bin at Wal-mart (Yes I shop at W & also K-mart. One needs to to maintain a lifestyle of thrift.) and see all the folks buying armloads of $5-$9 videos & DVDs for their "collections". Again - Useless crap (unless it's ...ahem...porn..... :p)

DapperD
11-25-2008, 20:48
After watching more gloomy news about the economy tonight, I got to wondering how this might affect the number of hikers on the trail this year. I guess there is no way of telling until after the fact, but anyone changing thier plans because of the economy? I think the state of the economy may force some potential thru-hiker's to dismiss attempting a complete thru-hike and opt for a section or multi-day hikes. I think there will most likely be an increase in overall trail activity though, due to people having more idle time on their hands, and wanting to just go out for day hiking,etc...

rafe
11-25-2008, 21:06
A wake up Shock might be painful in the short run, but perhaps good for the country in the long run.

We're due for a shock (http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitalism/dp/0312427999/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227661534&sr=8-1), I'm sure. I wonder if the $20 million/year CEOs will feel our pain?

Panzer1
11-25-2008, 21:16
Maybe there will be more hikers because of the bad economy. Some people may get laid off, start collecting unemployment but opt to go hiking instead of looking for work. I think you can collect unemployment for 9 months now.

Note: you are required to look for work if you collect unemployment. There are real penalties if they can catch you.

Panzer

Toolshed
11-25-2008, 21:20
Maybe there will be more hikers because of the bad economy. Some people may get laid off, start collecting unemployment but opt to go hiking instead of looking for work. I think you can collect unemployment for 9 months now.

Note: you are required to look for work if you collect unemployment. There are real penalties if they can catch you.

Panzer
I started hiking in the early 80's, which learned me to live cheaply because I couldn't afford to do anything else.

Bare Bear
11-25-2008, 22:00
Hopefully we will see a ton of New Public Works projects like the CCC. That will definitely put people to work and help out state and National Parks, Trails, etc. It would be a better use of that $150 Billion (and counting as more jump on the freebie bandwagon) than helping to pay executive salaries.

joshua5878
11-25-2008, 22:39
March 09 from GA, bought a shi&()ad of Fannie May and some other stocks, quitting my job in Jan and hiking thru the summer. Keeping my fingers crossed that when I get back the economy is better. Thats my story @ I am sticking to it! Shamwow

superman
11-25-2008, 23:04
March 09 from GA, bought a shi&()ad of Fannie May and some other stocks, quitting my job in Jan and hiking thru the summer. Keeping my fingers crossed that when I get back the economy is better. Thats my story @ I am sticking to it! Shamwow

I'm giving both of my sons and their wives depressed stocks for Christmas. You get a lot of leverage for not a lot of money these days. If the stocks don't come back up it means we all got flushed ...in my humble opinion.

tom_alan
11-25-2008, 23:41
We'll be spending Black Friday freezing our butts off in the Smokies. The family thing has to wait for Christmas, when the kids will all come together from their various locations.:)

Anything but shopping!!!

Must be nice. I'm spending Black Friday (3:30am - 4:00pm) at Best Buy where I work. With the small box of a store that we have, it will be tough keeping all the product on the floor. My main focus ~ Merchandising and Loss Prevention. It's my understanding that there are already customers lining up.

tom_alan
11-25-2008, 23:47
We're due for a shock (http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitalism/dp/0312427999/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227661534&sr=8-1), I'm sure. I wonder if the $20 million/year CEOs will feel our pain?

I hope not ~ I work for Best Buy and they have very aggressive goals for Black Friday.:eek:

Toolshed
11-26-2008, 01:29
I'm giving both of my sons and their wives depressed stocks for Christmas. You get a lot of leverage for not a lot of money these days. If the stocks don't come back up it means we all got flushed ...in my humble opinion.

Don't forget, You still got enough time between now and the end of the year to sell enough of those that you won't think will rebound (at least $3k in losses), in order to cover any gains (especially if you have mutuals) and still buy them back at their reduced rate after the IR 30 day wash period. :)

oldfivetango
11-26-2008, 09:17
When I was a kid my dad used to take the entire family camping
so we would know just how little it really takes to live.He should know-
only had two changes of clothes as a child,no electricity,went to school barefoot,
and was raised during the depression by his widowed mother who lost her husband
in the flu pandemic of 1918.She raised rabbits,chickens,and had a vegetable garden
up until just before she died and would not have taken a dime from Uncle Sam even
if he had been offering it back then.

Somehow she managed to send two of her three sons to college with the help of
the oldest who went to work immediately after graduating highschool and was proud
to send one of his younger brothers to law school.The two of them went in business
together in 1930(ie;during the depression) and they did quite well for themselves
through careful planning,hard work,and basic practices of thrift.

Anybody who buys things they cannot afford,including homes and cars and "junk"
(like overpriced cups of coffe when they could eat at home and/or use a Thermos)
is just asking for economic ruin.

And anyone who is jealous of people like Bill Gates and/or highly paid executives
and athletes and anyone else you can think of needs to be reminded that we still
live in a country where you can go out and outperform the competetion or quit
whining about your own incompetence.Really,it's your choice.

Bottom line on this thread is that there may or may not be less hiking on the
AT due to the economy;but there will probably be a shift in the demographics of
those who do choose to hike.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Oldfivetango

superman
11-26-2008, 09:22
Don't forget, You still got enough time between now and the end of the year to sell enough of those that you won't think will rebound (at least $3k in losses), in order to cover any gains (especially if you have mutuals) and still buy them back at their reduced rate after the IR 30 day wash period. :)

That's good information. Actually, I have been spending my time looking at which ones to buy rather than what to sell. I'm insanely optimistic for the future.:)

Skyline
11-26-2008, 10:16
When you compare snapshots, many AT shelters and immediate environs look eerily similar to the "Hoovervilles" that sprung up after the last Great Depression took hold.

So, as the current economy gets worse before it gets better, AT hikers can show the rest of the nation how it's done. Ain't we trendy? :D

Can't call 'em Hoovervilles anymore, tho.

Pedaling Fool
11-26-2008, 10:51
I keep hearing how our economy is based primarily on “consumer spending”. Something just sounds wrong with an economy that’s dependant on consumer spending. Maybe this so called “melt down” is a good thing.

sherrill
11-26-2008, 11:24
Note: you are required to look for work if you collect unemployment. There are real penalties if they can catch you.

Panzer

True. When I was laid off in 2000 I had to make contact with at least 2 potential employers a week and go to the ESC (NC) office at least once a month to review. That was after 2 months of having to go in weekly.

So I'm curious if one thinks they can collect unemployment while thru hiking.

weary
11-26-2008, 11:25
....I'm insanely optimistic for the future.:)
Well, there definitely will be a future. But I suspect it may be a bit bleak -- at least as most define bleak. I'm afraid that too many things have happened over the past couple of decades for the bailouts to have the impacts that are needed to restart the economy.

Consumers drive the economy and consumers are pessimistic. Their credit cards are maxed out. Few understand the technicalities of the financial system. But understanding isn't needed to know something is wrong. When the giant banks that routinely charge their customers $35 for being a day late on their credit card payments, seek and get multi-billion bailouts from the taxpayers, most suspect the bank CEOs didn't really earn their multi-million dollar salaries, and that somehow the system is broken.

For a while, anyway, this spending on frivolous things, is going to slow down. Any extra income from tax breaks will be used to pay off debts or to save for what people perceive as a dim future.

And why not? That's what the nation's elite are doing. Taxpayers have invested a half trillion dollars into banks with 50 million dollar a year executives in hopes they will start to lend money again. Instead the bank officials use it to pay off debts and save it for what they perceive to be a dim future.

If government can put the unemployed and underemployed back to work, it may help. Those in society who are already seriously hurting will quickly spend whatever they get. But all the tax breaks in the world won't quickly get the employed to spend money on the gadgets that drive the economy.

It's common on White Blaze to decry the silly things that Americans spend their money on. But it's the buying and selling of such things that keep the economy as we know it going.

Somehow, we must get Americans to resume their usual foolishness, to get the economy as we know it to work again.

Personally, I oppose all the bail out attempts for two reasons:

1. They aren't working, and probably can't.

2. Not offering them, may jump start a new and more responsible economy.

Weary

Dances with Mice
11-26-2008, 11:36
I can see bad times affecting trail maintenance clubs.

For example, I'm fortunate to have a job that allows me to monitor my trail sections (section of trails? sections of trails? whatever) on my days off. I also have enough vacation to devote part of it to trail work or activities, and can afford the tools and gas needed to get to my sections. In short, right now I have enough resources to devote some amount of time and money to trail maintenance in addition to the time and money I spend hiking and camping.

It's truly a luxury, but I can afford it. If I were to lose my job then trail maintenance, and my dues to trail organizations, would be the first things cut from the family budget. Others may have different priorities, I'm sure Weary does, but we can't all be Saints.

I'm certainly not irreplaceable but an economic depression will put many others in the same situation. My point is that trail clubs may also start feeling a pinch in both dues and volunteer time from the economic slowdown.

mudhead
11-26-2008, 11:39
Well said.

woodsy
11-26-2008, 12:05
Trail impacts due to sluggish economy:
I noticed in the fall MATC newsletter an alarming # of maintainer positions opened up in the Bigelow area in particular. With fuel costs hitting 4 bucks a gallon this summer no doubt some people could no longer afford to volunteer their money as well as time.
Not sure how many of these positions have been filled but with gas prices now more reasonable, anyone interested in pitching in can start here at MATC (http://www.matc.org/)
You must be a member of MATC (15.00 annual) to be considered for a position.

weary
11-26-2008, 14:23
.....And anyone who is jealous of people like Bill Gates and/or highly paid executives
and athletes and anyone else you can think of needs to be reminded that we still
live in a country where you can go out and outperform the competetion or quit
whining about your own incompetence.Really,it's your choice.....
For another perspective, OFT, read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/opinion/26friedman.html?_r=1&hp

Weary

oldfivetango
11-26-2008, 14:48
Well said for the most part Weary.Spreading the wealth around is achieved
through consumer spending.If you are making what I am buying then that is
a real good thing.It is the basis of capitalism,which as we all know,is what
built this country and the world's number one economy in the first place.

It would sure help if government would do things to help keep US manufacturers
at home so that the fruits of our economy would be shared by Americans and
not foreigners.

And if all those CEO's fail to perform,dont worry-their stock holders will take
care of them in due course.
Oldfivetango

gaga
11-26-2008, 15:06
I keep hearing how our economy is based primarily on “consumer spending”. Something just sounds wrong with an economy that’s dependant on consumer spending. Maybe this so called “melt down” is a good thing.
the "consumers" just got smarter over the years,and they remembered one important thing when they buy something, its called Quality,people just want quality for their money this days,one example is: look on the streets and highways 80% of the cars are imports mainly Japan brands ,i wonder why??? hhhhhhm:-? even in the south;) ,and the days of the V8 are obsolete ,and i`m not talking about the beverage;)

weary
11-26-2008, 15:22
I keep hearing how our economy is based primarily on “consumer spending”. Something just sounds wrong with an economy that’s dependant on consumer spending. Maybe this so called “melt down” is a good thing.
All economies over the centuries have depended on consumer spending. The economy by definition consists of people selling products or services and of consumers paying for these products and services.

When the two parts of the economy match, and people are employed, producing products and services that they and others want to buy, it's called prosperity. When the match gets off balance the result is a mix of deflation, inflation and recession -- sometimes all three.

Weary

daddytwosticks
11-26-2008, 17:22
Chill out...the economy will come back, but will leave many casualties...enjoy your turkey tomorrow and be thankful for the wonderful non-material gifts you have (family, friends, a roof over head, etc.).:)

Pedaling Fool
11-26-2008, 17:46
All economies over the centuries have depended on consumer spending. The economy by definition consists of people selling products or services and of consumers paying for these products and services.

When the two parts of the economy match, and people are employed, producing products and services that they and others want to buy, it's called prosperity. When the match gets off balance the result is a mix of deflation, inflation and recession -- sometimes all three.

Weary
I agree. I shouldn't of used our economy as an example since we are past-the-point-of-no-return with respect to the global-economy-way of doing things.

I was just thinking that a global economy can't be based on consumer spending too much longer. We are 6 billion people and growing. Not all 6 billion live at our standard-of-living, but as more and more peoples around the world become modernized seems like the "consumer spending" economic model won't work. How many people can the world's resources support while living at our standards?

superman
11-26-2008, 17:54
There are opportunities when the economy is going up and when it's coming down. Be watchful and be prepared to adjust to new situations. Holy crap, that sounds like a thru hike. You can focus on the negative but mostly you’ll just see what you can’t do…not what you can do.
If this seems irrelevant, copy it and post it to your refrigerator. It may make more sense next year.

weary
11-26-2008, 18:49
....I was just thinking that a global economy can't be based on consumer spending too much longer. We are 6 billion people and growing. Not all 6 billion live at our standard-of-living, but as more and more peoples around the world become modernized seems like the "consumer spending" economic model won't work. How many people can the world's resources support while living at our standards?
I wish I knew. But it's surely far less than exist on earth today, and certainly it's far less than the 8 billion that population specialists predict will exist in a few years.

Probably this nation's dumbest government policy of recent years has been the decisions to oppose serious population control policies by countries we are helping to get out of poverty.

However, it's beyond my abilities to design an economic system that is not based on people producing things that others want to buy. The Soviets tried and collapsed as a result.

However, it will all work out sometime. Sadly our only historical example, the great depression of the 30s, required 10 years and a world war to escape. I'm hoping the new economic teams that have been announced at three press conferences this week will devise a better solution.

In the meantime, I'm going to huddle down, work on my trails, work to raise critically needed funds for the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust, keep getting out my newsletters that encourage people to live healthier lives through walking, and keep my house warm this soon to be winter.

Weary www.matlt.org

Dogwood
11-26-2008, 19:40
The EconoMe The EconoMe The EconoMe. I'm tired of hearing about money in America. Whether it's labeled or defined with somewhat veiled words and more important sounding phrases like: economy, credit crunch, market downturns/uptrends, buying power, economic indicators(a phrase you will be sure to hear a lot during the Christmas season), inflation, stagnation, housing crisis(meaning the prices of real estate), economic development, etc. it is all about the flow of money. Don't get me wrong; I understand that money can be, and often is, important in so many facets, but it seems to me there is WAY TOO MUCH emphasis about centering our lives around money in this country. It seems there are many who would have us working longer harder hours so we can perceptually make more money so we can do more shopping so we can buy more more more. It also seems the more money Americans earn the more it is being accessed by someone or something else that has the idea that they know better what's right for their money. I know I may sound naive because many readers of this blog will say, "but, but, but, you don't know". I have to do this and this. But I ask you, "who or what has led you to believe that your life and lifestyle needs to be as it is"? Have you soberly decided what's important to you or has it largely been influenced and determined by someone or something else? Do you think that the someone or something else(big business, government, employer, organized religion, political parties, relatives, etc.) always have have your best interests in mind?

I tend to believe that no matter what the state of the economy Christopher Columbus, Lewis and Clark, John Wesley Powell, Sir Edmund Hillary, Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett, etc. etc. etc. would have a way to get in their share of adventure and discovery.

Just some off the wall out side of the box thoughts.

Dogwood
11-26-2008, 20:00
Seems like a huge merry-go-round to me. The more times I sit still and ride the merry-go-round the more I have to pay someone else for the ride. Of course, the merry-go-round owners are quick to point out, "see how fun it is to ride the merry-go-round, stay on the ride". But, did you ever notice that after you get off the ride you feel a bit disoriented, dizzy, and certainly lighter in the pocketbook? And, did you notice that you get off the merry-go-round pretty much where you got on? I guess some people just enjoy being disoriented, dizzzy, poorer, and letting someone else hold the reins???

Toolshed
11-26-2008, 21:18
That's good information. Actually, I have been spending my time looking at which ones to buy rather than what to sell. I'm insanely optimistic for the future.:)

Me as well. But I have some very poor performing biotechs that are speculation (no dividends) which I know aren't going anywhere right now. Otherwise I am bullish on LUK, CAT, GM, F, COST, FNM & FRE. At the extreme low prices I bought in, I am willing to take a risk if 2-3 go under, the others would cover it over the long haul of 20-25 years.

weary
11-26-2008, 21:42
The EconoMe The EconoMe The EconoMe. I'm tired of hearing about money in America. Whether it's labeled or defined with somewhat veiled words and more important sounding phrases like: economy, credit crunch, market downturns/uptrends, buying power, economic indicators(a phrase you will be sure to hear a lot during the Christmas season), inflation, stagnation, housing crisis(meaning the prices of real estate), economic development, etc. it is all about the flow of money. Don't get me wrong; I understand that money can be, and often is, important in so many facets, but it seems to me there is WAY TOO MUCH emphasis about centering our lives around money in this country. It seems there are many who would have us working longer harder hours so we can perceptually make more money so we can do more shopping so we can buy more more more. It also seems the more money Americans earn the more it is being accessed by someone or something else that has the idea that they know better what's right for their money. I know I may sound naive because many readers of this blog will say, "but, but, but, you don't know". I have to do this and this. But I ask you, "who or what has led you to believe that your life and lifestyle needs to be as it is"? Have you soberly decided what's important to you or has it largely been influenced and determined by someone or something else? Do you think that the someone or something else(big business, government, employer, organized religion, political parties, relatives, etc.) always have have your best interests in mind?

I tend to believe that no matter what the state of the economy Christopher Columbus, Lewis and Clark, John Wesley Powell, Sir Edmund Hillary, Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett, etc. etc. etc. would have a way to get in their share of adventure and discovery.

Just some off the wall out side of the box thoughts.
Your comments, Dogwood, mostly involve folks that approached the wilderness with its rich resources, that for thousands of miles were inhabitated only by uneducated aboriginals.

Reasonably educated people live almost everywhere now. There are no longer vast open spaces to corrupt for private profit. Nor are there many uneducated aboriginals any longer to stand in way of developer dreams. Rather, increasingly, there are people dedicated to protecting wild areas, opposing your dreams of returning to an earlier era.

Weary

Dogwood
11-26-2008, 23:51
Your comments, Dogwood, mostly involve folks that approached the wilderness with its rich resources, that for thousands of miles were inhabitated only by uneducated aboriginals.

Reasonably educated people live almost everywhere now. There are no longer vast open spaces to corrupt for private profit. Nor are there many uneducated aboriginals any longer to stand in way of developer dreams. Rather, increasingly, there are people dedicated to protecting wild areas, opposing your dreams of returning to an earlier era.

Weary

I appreciate your comments Weary, but: Even though I listed explorers and adventurers that lived in another era there R many living(modern day) explorer, adventurers, hikers, etc. that don't let the state of the economy keep them from doing what they desire. That was my pt. We, as Americans, IMO, focus a great deal on money and sometimes make excuses for not achieving our dreams based on our perceptions of money.

The wilderness and how it's defined has changed considerably since the days of the people I listed, but it still contains vast resources, even if those resources aren't always defined in terms of bbls of oil, ozs. of gold, cf of natural gas, cbf of lumber, or water rights. I would say the Amazon River basin, much of Alaska, parts of Australia, Siberia, areas in Chile and Argentina, Canada, central America, New Zealand, Greenland, Antarctica, etc. could be defined as vast open areas. Do you really think there currently R not those who look to these areas to corrupt for private profit??? It's happening as we speak!

Just because aboriginals/native Americans weren't educated in schools and universities like U and me(I have a Masters in Horticulture and B.S. in Statistical Mathematics and dropped out in my 4th yr. of Civil Engineering) doesn't mean they R uneducated. Maybe, it's us who have not been "reasonably" educated! In truth, we R all educated. Just in different ways. In different schools of thought. I can understand, accept, respect, and live with that!

Fortunately, it's not only the "uneducated" or "aboriginals" who stand in the way of developer's "dreams". Indeed, some, including myself, will stand as an obstacle to those who equate greed, uncontrolled rampant development, a disregard for the environment, ignorance of their impact on other members of their species by their actions, wastefulness, and bottom line profits with "progress" or "dreams". Let us all be aware that our actions impact our environment, other species, and other people.

It's not about returning to an another era. It's about being good stewards of what we have and where we live!

weary
11-27-2008, 00:53
....It's not about returning to an another era. It's about being good stewards of what we have and where we live!
I couldn't agree more. That's why I've been a founding and continuing member of three land trusts dedicated to protecting and creating new wild places, since 1973.

Weary www.matlt.org

Dogwood
11-27-2008, 01:56
Weary, didn't intend to jump on you or go off on a diatribe. I just get that way when I come out of the woods after a long stay. I notice a lot of inconsiderate destructive thoughtless behavior of the human rat species.

oldfivetango
11-27-2008, 10:14
I would like to challenge all those who hate capitalism and consumer based
economies to go live in the woods like Daniel Boone and see how far they
get with the new lifestyle.
Try it-you won't be missing anything but your computers,cars,airconditioned housing,
fast food,resataurant food,home cooked food,hot showers and flush toilets,television
(including FOOTBALL),movies,popcorn,social interaction with friends and familyetc.
I mean,since capitalism is so awful you need to send the world a message by bailing
out on that loser of a system-right?
Have a happy Thanksgiving before you go,though.
Oldfivetango

KG4FAM
11-27-2008, 10:47
I would like to challenge all those who hate capitalism and consumer based
economies to go live in the woods like Daniel Boone and see how far they
get with the new lifestyle.
Try it-you won't be missing anything but your computers,cars,airconditioned housing,
fast food,resataurant food,home cooked food,hot showers and flush toilets,television
(including FOOTBALL),movies,popcorn,social interaction with friends and familyetc.
I mean,since capitalism is so awful you need to send the world a message by bailing
out on that loser of a system-right?
Have a happy Thanksgiving before you go,though.
OldfivetangoThis reminds me of the scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian where they are saying "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Blue Jay
11-27-2008, 11:08
Me as well. But I have some very poor performing biotechs that are speculation (no dividends) which I know aren't going anywhere right now. Otherwise I am bullish on LUK, CAT, GM, F, COST, FNM & FRE. At the extreme low prices I bought in, I am willing to take a risk if 2-3 go under, the others would cover it over the long haul of 20-25 years.

This is a great thread as all of you seem to have a great attitude. I agree with this one also, except for one big hole. GM, they have been shooting themselves in the head for over 20 years. No matter what you think of the producer (please don't go there) a certain movie of that time illustrated the completely wrong decisions of this corporation. It's not like they even had to come up with an idea of their own. All they had to do is copy Japan like they did to us in the 60s. They still show not a glimpse of a clue. They even hired Nardelli who almost killed Home Depot. If a corporation ever needed to die, its GM. Did you see their bailout plan on Saturday Night live, if only it was a joke.

superman
11-27-2008, 12:50
This is a great thread as all of you seem to have a great attitude. I agree with this one also, except for one big hole. GM, they have been shooting themselves in the head for over 20 years. No matter what you think of the producer (please don't go there) a certain movie of that time illustrated the completely wrong decisions of this corporation. It's not like they even had to come up with an idea of their own. All they had to do is copy Japan like they did to us in the 60s. They still show not a glimpse of a clue. They even hired Nardelli who almost killed Home Depot. If a corporation ever needed to die, its GM. Did you see their bailout plan on Saturday Night live, if only it was a joke.


I wasn't going to say anything but since you mentioned it. I'm finding it more than amusing how the major networks are hammering on the side of bailing out the self-inflicted financial problems of the big three. When it was first proposed the American people laughed about the nerve of the three stooges begging for bucks. In the free enterprise system that a lot of us thought we lived in, if a company failed to provide a product that people wanted or failed to compete it had to change or go under. The arrogant bastards of the American car industry chose to ignore the better and more desirable products of their competitors and lost a larger and larger share of it's market. For 40 years, they chose a course of planned obsolescence and provided inferior products that shortchanged those Americans who tried to be loyal customers. Many Americans switched to foreign products because they were tired of being punished for buying American cars. The out of touch big three accused their customers of being snobs to American cars. The big highflying three have not been honest or loyal to Americans yet we are supposed to give them billions. In the old free enterprise system when a company failed it always had economic consequences. We always knew that but the big three don't seem to have remembered that over the passed 40 years. The American people have already voted with their dollars. Now we are supposed to pay for cars we chose not to buy. Since the big three has done nothing to change their ways any bail out will just be a temporary fix. They have held the answer to their shrinking market for 40 years and chose not to use it. To bail out the big three is simply to be an enabler to inefficiency and arrogance.

Dogwood
11-27-2008, 15:54
I would like to challenge all those who hate capitalism and consumer based
economies to go live in the woods like Daniel Boone and see how far they
get with the new lifestyle.
Try it-you won't be missing anything but your computers,cars,airconditioned housing,
fast food,resataurant food,home cooked food,hot showers and flush toilets,television
(including FOOTBALL),movies,popcorn,social interaction with friends and familyetc.
I mean,since capitalism is so awful you need to send the world a message by bailing
out on that loser of a system-right?
Have a happy Thanksgiving before you go,though.
Oldfivetango

HEY!!! Wait a minute. I don't have to miss out on all those things. I can make popcorn with my friends and family over a campfire!!!

Toolshed
11-27-2008, 17:48
This is a great thread as all of you seem to have a great attitude. I agree with this one also, except for one big hole. GM, they have been shooting themselves in the head for over 20 years. No matter what you think of the producer (please don't go there) a certain movie of that time illustrated the completely wrong decisions of this corporation. It's not like they even had to come up with an idea of their own. All they had to do is copy Japan like they did to us in the 60s. They still show not a glimpse of a clue. They even hired Nardelli who almost killed Home Depot. If a corporation ever needed to die, its GM. Did you see their bailout plan on Saturday Night live, if only it was a joke.
Yeah I tak a lot of ribbing from friends and coworkers for my bullish aproach here, but GM Still has cash and they have enough to get through most of next year.
I am confident that after 1/19 O & Company will do whatever they can to protect the unions in the term, which means ultimately keeping GM afloat until they can retool. Quality has increased at GM in the past decade. Leaner management, quicker turnaround, reduced A&P costs and less union dominance is the answer. The big 3 US automakers pay on avg $73/hour fully loaded compensation, compared to $44 at the big 3 asian automakers.

Pedaling Fool
11-27-2008, 19:26
...The big 3 US automakers pay on avg $73/hour fully loaded compensation, compared to $44 at the big 3 asian automakers.
Worth saying again. The funny thing is, unions came about to keep the management from abusing the worker. What union will come to be to protect the employer.

Jim Adams
11-27-2008, 19:32
HEY!!! Wait a minute. I don't have to miss out on all those things. I can make popcorn with my friends and family over a campfire!!!

very well said!:cool:
you beat me to it.

geek

Jim Adams
11-27-2008, 19:37
I wasn't going to say anything but since you mentioned it. I'm finding it more than amusing how the major networks are hammering on the side of bailing out the self-inflicted financial problems of the big three. When it was first proposed the American people laughed about the nerve of the three stooges begging for bucks. In the free enterprise system that a lot of us thought we lived in, if a company failed to provide a product that people wanted or failed to compete it had to change or go under. The arrogant bastards of the American car industry chose to ignore the better and more desirable products of their competitors and lost a larger and larger share of it's market. For 40 years, they chose a course of planned obsolescence and provided inferior products that shortchanged those Americans who tried to be loyal customers. Many Americans switched to foreign products because they were tired of being punished for buying American cars. The out of touch big three accused their customers of being snobs to American cars. The big highflying three have not been honest or loyal to Americans yet we are supposed to give them billions. In the old free enterprise system when a company failed it always had economic consequences. We always knew that but the big three don't seem to have remembered that over the passed 40 years. The American people have already voted with their dollars. Now we are supposed to pay for cars we chose not to buy. Since the big three has done nothing to change their ways any bail out will just be a temporary fix. They have held the answer to their shrinking market for 40 years and chose not to use it. To bail out the big three is simply to be an enabler to inefficiency and arrogance.


ie: see US steel production 40 years ago!:-?

The new American cars will still be made in America but they will be called Honda, Toyota and Nissan!:o

geek

weary
11-28-2008, 23:33
I'm sick over the crowds on LOng Island at a Walmart stores that trampled a store employee to death trying to reached the advertised sales.

But in the overall scheme of things, I suspect that most don't care. Even the New York Times relagated the death to the second paragraph, and never did identify the victim or say anything about his family.

We had a wonderful day yesterday at the Cabin in East Andover, but slept late this morning. I did bring in some wood to keep a fire going in the kitchen range on a rainy day.

This afternoon I cashed a check from the insurance company that requires that I pay for my medicines up front. They send a check for their share once it gets a bill from the pharmacy.

This afternoon I baked a batch of oatmeal cookies for our town's historical society's annual "cookie" walk. On Saturday, for $5, you get a bag of cookies and a chance to visit the museum and it's volunteers, all dressed in 17th century finery.

Yup, 17th century is right. Our first settlers came in 1607. Most didn't stay long. They built a boat and sailed back to England within a year.

Actually, there is historical evidence of fishermen camping on some of the islands long before then, along with some French explorers, and even norsemen. But of course those foreigh types don't count.

Weary

Bulldawg
11-28-2008, 23:49
Yeah I tak a lot of ribbing from friends and coworkers for my bullish aproach here, but GM Still has cash and they have enough to get through most of next year.
I am confident that after 1/19 O & Company will do whatever they can to protect the unions in the term, which means ultimately keeping GM afloat until they can retool. Quality has increased at GM in the past decade. Leaner management, quicker turnaround, reduced A&P costs and less union dominance is the answer. The big 3 US automakers pay on avg $73/hour fully loaded compensation, compared to $44 at the big 3 asian automakers.


Here's the thing, if they don't break the unions, I support zero bailout of the big three. When a guy can walk in the door, start off sweeping the floor, and make $44 an hour, something is wrong with this picture!! Don't whine and moan and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I do. I know lots of former GM employees as there was a plant in Atlanta for years, employing hundreds of people from my area. You can't pay a trained machinist $95 an hour and expect to turn a profit. YOu also can't put that same machinist in a union where he has no fear of losing his job due to under performance and expect to turn out a top quality product. Notice that none of the foreign manufacturers moving into the US allow unions in their plants???:confused::confused: They know what the Union does to their product.

12% of the cost of every American made big three car goes to Union benefits. Something wrong with that picture.

Toolshed
11-29-2008, 00:07
Here's the thing, if they don't break the unions, I support zero bailout of the big three. When a guy can walk in the door, start off sweeping the floor, and make $44 an hour, something is wrong with this picture!! Don't whine and moan and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I do. I know lots of former GM employees as there was a plant in Atlanta for years, employing hundreds of people from my area. You can't pay a trained machinist $95 an hour and expect to turn a profit. YOu also can't put that same machinist in a union where he has no fear of losing his job due to under performance and expect to turn out a top quality product. Notice that none of the foreign manufacturers moving into the US allow unions in their plants???:confused::confused: They know what the Union does to their product.

12% of the cost of every American made big three car goes to Union benefits. Something wrong with that picture.

No Arguments here BD.
I grew up in a family business that was a GM services supplier. I have many friends whose parents worked at and retired there, and they now work there.
I saw some of the BS that went on over the years during my weekly plant visits (1/2 day @ 4-5 days a month). I got my ass chewed out by a union supervisor one day because I drove to one of the plants for an emergency call, from another town 45 miles away. Whe I got there, I needed to remove a 3' sanitary sewer lid. Had to wait for the maintenance foreman to come back from break. He looked at it and told me he would call the tool shop and have them come out and remove it (simple iron pick into the top and drag it off). I waited almost an hour and a half - Sitting in a chair cooling my heels as they went through shift change. I finally said "F" it, went out to my truck and got a crowbar, came back, pulled it off, got done in 15 minutes and walked out. Unfortunately a union hack filed a complaint and I got the riot act.
I have no love of O or Unions.... I'm self serving. I only want my stock value to go up now.....:D

Bulldawg
11-29-2008, 00:12
No Arguments here BD.
I grew up in a family business that was a GM services supplier. I have many friends whose parents worked at and retired there, and they now work there.
I saw some of the BS that went on over the years during my weekly plant visits (1/2 day @ 4-5 days a month). I got my ass chewed out by a union supervisor one day because I drove to one of the plants for an emergency call, from another town 45 miles away. Whe I got there, I needed to remove a 3' sanitary sewer lid. Had to wait for the maintenance foreman to come back from break. He looked at it and told me he would call the tool shop and have them come out and remove it (simple iron pick into the top and drag it off). I waited almost an hour and a half - Sitting in a chair cooling my heels as they went through shift change. I finally said "F" it, went out to my truck and got a crowbar, came back, pulled it off, got done in 15 minutes and walked out. Unfortunately a union hack filed a complaint and I got the riot act.
I have no love of O or Unions.... I'm self serving. I only want my stock value to go up now.....:D


I am in the auto parts industry, worked at dealerships, now work for an independent. We sell Motorcraft parts. We had to send a guy to the Ford parts warehouse one day on an emergency call. It took him 3 hours to get the right group of people together to pull a radiator hose off the shelf. Since it was not a planned order with plenty of time to put together, a supervisor had to approve the puller to go out into the warehouse and pull the part. Then just like you said, they went through a shift change while our guy was waiting and the whole process started over. It is a complete joke what goes on inside those plants and warehouses.

I knew a guy when I worked at a dealership who had retired from GM. When he retired he was making $82 an hour. This was in 1995. Know what he did? He drove the cars to a parking lot as they left the assembly line. Part of the union deal, he got a ride back in a van. Get in, drive, get out, ride back, repeat.....$82 an hour, not a bad gig, if you can live with yourself after doing that all day!

weary
11-29-2008, 02:05
Here's the thing, if they don't break the unions, I support zero bailout of the big three. When a guy can walk in the door, start off sweeping the floor, and make $44 an hour, something is wrong with this picture!! Don't whine and moan and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I do. I know lots of former GM employees as there was a plant in Atlanta for years, employing hundreds of people from my area. You can't pay a trained machinist $95 an hour and expect to turn a profit. YOu also can't put that same machinist in a union where he has no fear of losing his job due to under performance and expect to turn out a top quality product. Notice that none of the foreign manufacturers moving into the US allow unions in their plants???:confused::confused: They know what the Union does to their product.

12% of the cost of every American made big three car goes to Union benefits. Something wrong with that picture.
Bulldog. The new union contract signed months and months ago, pays new workers $15 an hour.

Unions made this nation the wealthiest in the world. We hear the message 50 times a day. "Consumers drive the economy."

That can only happen when consumers have money to spend. It's unions and companies with wages that compete with union wages that created the middleclass.

The problem is not union wages. The problem is $50 million dollar a year CEO's flying to Washington in private jets begging for $25 billion in corporate welfare.

Weary

Dogwood
11-29-2008, 02:13
I would like to challenge all those who hate capitalism and consumer based
economies to go live in the woods like Daniel Boone and see how far they
get with the new lifestyle.
Try it-you won't be missing anything but your computers,cars,airconditioned housing,
fast food,resataurant food,home cooked food,hot showers and flush toilets,television
(including FOOTBALL),movies,popcorn,social interaction with friends and familyetc.
I mean,since capitalism is so awful you need to send the world a message by bailing
out on that loser of a system-right?
Have a happy Thanksgiving before you go,though.
Oldfivetango

OK I'll bite. I don't hate capitalism or living in a consumer based economy. I realize the form of government and economic system I live under provides tremendous opportunities, not only for this country and me, but for others internationally. However, I do have reservations, concerns, challenges, and questions regarding both.

As a critical thinker, I consciously examine my beliefs, thinking, and actions, and who or where they are coming from. I also examine the consequences of my beliefs, thinking, and actions. I've realized that if I don't guard what's in my heart and mind there are all too many willing to do it for me, often without my best interests in mind! Instead of being drunkenly addicted to computers, cars, air conditioning, fast food, hot showers, flush toilets, television, football, movies, and all the other goods and services that we are led to believe we can't live without, I have chosen to question their necessity, or at least the extent of their necessity. If living without all, or at least some of these things, seems alien, foreign, abnormal, or inconceivable
did you solely determine that on your own or did someone or something else largely, or at least in large part, determine that for you? Did you realize millions of people in this country and around the world have chosen to live happily without these things? They have said "yes" to living another way!

Being a long distance hiker, often in the wilderness for long periods, away from those who would try to influence others for their benefit, has taught me it certainly IS enjoyably possible to live a simpler less complex life!

nitewalker
11-29-2008, 09:27
I keep hearing how our economy is based primarily on “consumer spending”. Something just sounds wrong with an economy that’s dependant on consumer spending. Maybe this so called “melt down” is a good thing.

sounds about rite. it may teach some of the spending fools to be more resposible with the money they dont have.

Blue Jay
11-29-2008, 10:37
You cannot compare the UAW to most of the remaining unions in the United States. It's much like comparing yourself to a CEO. Yes, you both make money but in a completely different world.

papa john
11-29-2008, 10:59
They have said "yes" to living another way!

Unfortunately, most of those people had no choice in the matter. It was live like they do or die. Do you honestly think that these people given a choice between our lifestyle and theirs that they would choose to back to groveling in the dirt 24/7 for a few morsels of food. I highly doubt it. Why do you think so many from these countries do anything they can to get here. So that they can live a decent life free from the trappings of a 3rd world country.

As for the economy, I must be living in an area that has not felt the full effects of the so-called downturn. The malls and stores were all packed yesterday, there wasn't a parking space to be had.

Blue Jay
11-29-2008, 11:04
Do you honestly think that these people given a choice between our lifestyle and theirs that they would choose to back to groveling in the dirt 24/7 for a few morsels of food.

Hey, you just described me during all of my long hikes.

papa john
11-29-2008, 11:31
Hey, you just described me during all of my long hikes.

LOL, I hear ya!

weary
11-29-2008, 12:20
Union power comes from contracts between employees and management. A contract takes two -- employees through their elected representatives and management. It takes both sides to agree with union rules.

Since I've observed management practices all my life, I'm not surprised that management signs bad contracts. For examples of bad management judgments, even without the influence of unions, we need only to look at the financial mess all the big investment banks with their hundreds of thousands of non-unionized employess have gotten the world into.

I've worked for union newspapers, and non union newspapers. The best journalism by far is practiced by the union papers. Probably 90 percent of the journalism prizes won in regional competitions in Maine over the decades have been won by the state's one newspaper with significant union contracts.

The shipyard located six miles up the Kennebec from my house has been unionized for seven decades. Then and now it is the states largest employer. It relies almost exclusively on Navy shipbuilding contracts to survive.

Once while chatting with one of the top managers of the shipyard during a time of stiff competition for Navy contracts, I commented that, "I guess the future depends on how hard your employees are willing to work."

The manager looked at me as if I had made a silly remark.

"Productivity is a function of management," he said.

Weary

4eyedbuzzard
11-29-2008, 12:33
Well said weary.

Management(s) agreed to all the union contracts that some cite as problems. I've worked both union and non-union jobs during my life. The best one was a non-union job--but ONLY because the company was paying union scale wages/benefits because they had to compete in the labor market for the best employees. I find it incredible that CEO's and upper management officers making 7 figure incomes can have the arrogance to blame HOURLY wages that they themselves agreed to as the cause of profitability shortfalls.

Management incompetence is the root cause. The buck stops at the CEO's desk.

Bulldawg
11-29-2008, 13:03
Weary, I have good money that says if I had said the Union was not to blame for the mess, you would have argued the other way!! You just want to argue. People that have been working for those huge wages for years did not agree to all of sudden take a 75% pay cut. Believe what you want. I guess you know there is a reason all the foreign automakers building automobiles here won't allow UAW in the door. Probably part of the reason those foreign automakers are kicking the big 3's asses!!! Wake up Waery, knock, knock, knock, anyone home?

Bulldawg
11-29-2008, 13:06
Here ya go Weary, from one of your favorite papers I'm sure the LAT.

The American companies also are trying to cut labor costs. GM says it pays its workers an average of $73 an hour in wages and pension and healthcare benefits. Toyota pays its U.S. workers an average of $48 an hour, GM says.

$15 an hour my ass!

weary
11-29-2008, 13:46
Here ya go Weary, from one of your favorite papers I'm sure the LAT.

The American companies also are trying to cut labor costs. GM says it pays its workers an average of $73 an hour in wages and pension and healthcare benefits. Toyota pays its U.S. workers an average of $48 an hour, GM says.

$15 an hour my ass!
Bulldawg. From today's New York Times:

"The United Automobile Workers agreed to extraordinary contract concessions in negotiations that took place in 2005 and 2007. Not only will there be no raises for the four-year life of the most recent contract, but the starting pay for new hires at the Big Three has been cut by 50 percent — to $14 to $16 an hour. Benefits have also been slashed."

Weary

Bulldawg
11-29-2008, 14:02
Bulldawg. From today's New York Times:

"The United Automobile Workers agreed to extraordinary contract concessions in negotiations that took place in 2005 and 2007. Not only will there be no raises for the four-year life of the most recent contract, but the starting pay for new hires at the Big Three has been cut by 50 percent — to $14 to $16 an hour. Benefits have also been slashed."

Weary


You honestly believe that a skilled auto worker, used to making between $60 and $75 an hour, benefits included, would agree to that kind of pay cut? Some of those machinists etc., are well worth $25-$30 an hour. Do you really beleive it when you read that those workers, who could go almost anywhere and make $25-$30 an hour, would agree to work for $15 an hour? If you believe everything you read, let me know what your hometown newspaper is, I have some ocean front property in the North Georgia mountains I want to run an ad on for ya!!!

weary
11-29-2008, 14:22
You honestly believe that a skilled auto worker, used to making between $60 and $75 an hour, benefits included, would agree to that kind of pay cut? Some of those machinists etc., are well worth $25-$30 an hour. Do you really beleive it when you read that those workers, who could go almost anywhere and make $25-$30 an hour, would agree to work for $15 an hour? If you believe everything you read, let me know what your hometown newspaper is, I have some ocean front property in the North Georgia mountains I want to run an ad on for ya!!!
The $15 an hour wage for new hires was in the contracts signed by all three auto makers and the United Auto Workers.

The existing workforce didn't get a pay cut. New hires will work for less. I originally posted this in response to you -- or someone -- who claimed their should be no bailout unless the union is ousted. I'm not enthusiastic about a bailout. But I suspect that this economy will go down the drain if the power of unions is further weakened.

We are already approaching a third world economy -- an economy divided between the super rich and everyone else. The inflation adjusted income of middle income people has been shrinking for decades. Only unions have any hope of keeping a consumer driven economy alive. Without middle income wages, consumers can't buy either the goods or services that have made this the most prosperous nation in the world. Without the pressure of unions to provide working people with a decent wage, the economy will inevitably go into a downward spiral.

Weary

Panzer1
11-29-2008, 14:36
For examples of bad management judgments, even without the influence of unions, we need only to look at the financial mess all the big investment banks with their hundreds of thousands of non-unionized employess have gotten the world into.



Good observation.

Panzer

Bulldawg
11-29-2008, 15:10
I don't work a union job and I make a decent wage. It could always be more, but who is ever truly happy with the wage they make? I don't rely on a union to get my pay raises, etc. for me. I rely on what most people in this country can't rely on; my hard work and knowledge. Couple that with the fact that I don't job hop like most of the country (16 years in one place, 33 years old). I guess you could say "I made it the old fashioned way, I earned it". But most of the country doesn't want to EARN their way in the world. They want the government or the unions to do it for them.

I have a mother that is employeed by one of the big three in a dealership. Her job would probably disappear if the government does not bail them out. But I still do not support a bail out, and neither does she. Because she holds the same values I hold, a rare value that you have to earn your way, not wait on the government or unions to do it for you.

I guess you think since all of the foreign automakers here are non-union, they don't pay a decent wage and are lousy employers? Funny that employees that should be downtroden in that type of environment produce a better product than a well taken care of happy union employee!!

Lone Wolf
11-29-2008, 15:13
After watching more gloomy news about the economy tonight, I got to wondering how this might affect the number of hikers on the trail this year. I guess there is no way of telling until after the fact, but anyone changing thier plans because of the economy?

it all depends on the auto workers

gaga
11-29-2008, 15:22
Bulldawg and Superman are on The people to buy a bear or two list when i meet them! ! !:D

Bulldawg
11-29-2008, 15:27
:D
Bulldawg and Superman are on The people to buy a bear or two list when i meet them! ! !


I'll be at Ron's next Saturday and at the Ruck on MLK weekend. I prefer Hoegardeen, but will drink most anything imported.:D:D

daddytwosticks
11-29-2008, 15:33
Steam locomotives, eight-track tapes, pay phones, leaded gasoline, manors, labor unions...

joshua5878
11-29-2008, 16:08
After watching more gloomy news about the economy tonight, I got to wondering how this might affect the number of hikers on the trail this year. I guess there is no way of telling until after the fact, but anyone changing thier plans because of the economy?

My brother and I were planning on starting our thru hike mid march of 2009. However, once we put a pencil to it, I am 41, he 50, car payments, misc bills, getting ourselves outfitted it was looking challenging.
I decided to make a modest investment in a stock and now our plans are back on! Not sure if I should say what stock but it went up over 200 percent in a week! Point being that even in a slumping economy their are opportunities that can present themselves.

Sly
11-29-2008, 16:38
You honestly believe that a skilled auto worker, used to making between $60 and $75 an hour, benefits included, would agree to that kind of pay cut?

Do you have a link saying GM workers make $150K per year? I tend to doubt it.

Toolshed
11-29-2008, 16:58
Do you have a link saying GM workers make $150K per year? I tend to doubt it.
I beleive he was speaking of fully loaded compensation, which is what this dscussion has been about. Here is a 2006 excerpt from CNNMoney:

"The top pay for a GM hourly employee is $27 an hour, but with benefits and future health care costs GM estimates that hour of work costs the company $73.73. The flat wage works out to about $56,000 a year before overtime, so those taking a $140,000 buyout would get about 2-1/2 years of pay in the lump sum."
Source (http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm)

Remember that $27 is before overtime and most all unions play the overtime game to force more pay into the hands of their members, but according to my calculator, $73.73 over 2040 hours comes to $150,409.20

4eyedbuzzard
11-29-2008, 17:36
I beleive he was speaking of fully loaded compensation, which is what this dscussion has been about. Here is a 2006 excerpt from CNNMoney:

"The top pay for a GM hourly employee is $27 an hour, but with benefits and future health care costs GM estimates that hour of work costs the company $73.73. The flat wage works out to about $56,000 a year before overtime, so those taking a $140,000 buyout would get about 2-1/2 years of pay in the lump sum."
Source (http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm)

Remember that $27 is before overtime and most all unions play the overtime game to force more pay into the hands of their members, but according to my calculator, $73.73 over 2040 hours comes to $150,409.20

Actually, most unions DON'T want workers to work overtime as they would rather have more straight time membership. OT actually costs companies LESS than hiring additional workes.

Sly
11-29-2008, 17:54
I beleive he was speaking of fully loaded compensation, which is what this dscussion has been about.

Since when?

Toolshed
11-29-2008, 18:18
I think around post #108 :D

Rockhound
11-29-2008, 18:48
I think the message here is that the gloomy economy will mean there will be fewer cars on the road. sounds like good news to me

Pedaling Fool
11-29-2008, 19:36
...As for the economy, I must be living in an area that has not felt the full effects of the so-called downturn. The malls and stores were all packed yesterday, there wasn't a parking space to be had.
Apparently the economy is ok in LI New York also. (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/11/28/2008-11-28_worker_dies_at_long_island_walmart_after.html)

weary
11-29-2008, 20:55
It would be useful if this conversation about unions involved someone besides me who has actually been a member of unions.

I had bounced around on a number of low paying, non union jobs. My first experience came after I was discharged from the Army in 1952. (I'd been drafted for two years. My time was up)

Because I had worked before being drafted in Chicago and knew the city, after discharge I drifted back there. My first job was as an electrician in a factory that made skins for skinless hotdogs. (It was actually cellophane casings, that molded the dogs, and then were removed.) But it sounds better to talk about making "skins for skinless hotdogs."

That factory union was a local of the Teamsters. We all were expecting a wage boost when a wage reopener clause in our contract came around one February. When the time came, the company claimed that the Teamsters had never notified the company that it wanted to reopen the contract.

We protested, of course. And held a meeting in the Teamsters hall. Somehow at the meeting a giant teamster managed to sit between each of our members, and made it clear that they didn't like dissent.

We quietly left. And as quietly organized an independent union. Being a kid from Maine I tried to talk about the coming election. I was shushed up. "Don't you know anything," I was told.

I figured the election would go down in defeat, since there had been zero discussion in the plant. In fact, we won with 80 percent of the vote. I think we were the only local in history that dared to reject the Teamsters.

Well, we negotiated higher wages, enough higher so that I felt comfortable quitting and enrolling at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, IL.

Four years later I found myself working for a tiny, non union, 2,400 circulation daily newspaper in Maine. My title was city editor, but the entire news staff consisted of me and a variety of parttime news reporters, most who covered only "society" news.

I've rarely worked harder in my life. A year later circulation had climbed to 3,300. But when the paper merged with a weekly in the same ownership a few years later, it hired in ":expert" reporters from all over New England for twice what I was earning.

When I suggested I deserved the same wages and would have to look elsewhere, management introduced me to my replacement two weeks later.

So I re-entered union ranks -- well it took a while. My first job was in a bureau in the town of the newspaper, I had left. I was sent a copy of the union contract and an invitation to join the union. I replied that I had read the contract, and its provisions seemed to be violated in the bureaus.

Two weeks later I got a reply -- from management, not the union officials. The company said that it "understood you are unhappy." I decided the union was a company union, and because of a quirk in the contract, I was able to refuse to join.

So I accepted an invitation to move to the main office of the paper, so they could build a paper trail to get rid of a trouble maker. Instead I wrote about 400,000 acres of long forgotten public lands, and before I knew it I had been chosen "Maine's Journalist of the Year." About then I joined the union, became a member of the union's board of directors, and even served a term on the union's negotiating committee.

As I studied the matter further, I had decided the union was not a company union, but just incompetent. So I worked to make it more competent.

All I'm suggesting is that unions come in all flavors, and like most institutions are subject to change.

Weary

chief
11-29-2008, 21:31
I wouldn't want Weary to feel alone in his union experience, so I'll tell you I was a union member for more than 30 years. I mostly just worked under union contracts, wanting to stay out of union politics. However, I was roped into serving as a part-time lobbiest in DC for a few years (my real job paid way more than the union ever would) and I've assisted in negotiating many contracts. Finished patting myself on the back!

I know this much. When times were good, we got ourselves a piece of the prosperity. When times were bad, it was taken away from us (up to a carefully negotiated point). Repeat as necessary. The main difference in union and non-union employees in the industry was the non-union guys never got their piece.

weary
11-29-2008, 22:42
Apparently the economy is ok in LI New York also. (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/11/28/2008-11-28_worker_dies_at_long_island_walmart_after.html)
"A Wal-Mart worker died early Friday after an "out-of-control" mob of frenzied shoppers smashed through the Long Island store's front doors and trampled him, police said.

"The Black Friday stampede plunged the Valley Stream outlet into chaos, knocking several employees to the ground and sending others scurrying atop vending machines to avoid the horde." New York Daily News.


Weary

Toolshed
11-29-2008, 22:53
"A Wal-Mart worker died early Friday after an "out-of-control" mob of frenzied shoppers smashed through the Long Island store's front doors and trampled him, police said.

"The Black Friday stampede plunged the Valley Stream outlet into chaos, knocking several employees to the ground and sending others scurrying atop vending machines to avoid the horde." New York Daily News.


Weary

Had the Teamsters been part of Walmart, I'm sure they would have beaten the shoppers back with baseball bats, Rocks chains, pistol whip and whatever other violent means they have used as intimidation over the years.

weary
11-29-2008, 23:13
Had the Teamsters been part of Walmart, I'm sure they would have beaten the shoppers back with baseball bats, Rocks chains, pistol whip and whatever other violent means they have used as intimidation over the years.
The Teamsters have evolved over the decades. I've been out of touch recently, but most observers seem to think their illegal activities have mostly stopped.

I've been out of touch in recent years. But I was a bit surprised when I began working for newspapers six years after the events I described, the members of several Maine municipal police departments chose to affiliate with the Teamsters when they tried to form a union.

Weary

Monkeyboy
11-29-2008, 23:15
It would be useful if this conversation about unions involved someone besides me who has actually been a member of unions.

I had bounced around on a number of low paying, non union jobs. My first experience came after I was discharged from the Army in 1952. (I'd been drafted for two years. My time was up)

Because I had worked before being drafted in Chicago and knew the city, after discharge I drifted back there. My first job was as an electrician in a factory that made skins for skinless hotdogs. (It was actually cellophane casings, that molded the dogs, and then were removed.) But it sounds better to talk about making "skins for skinless hotdogs."

That factory union was a local of the Teamsters. We all were expecting a wage boost when a wage reopener clause in our contract came around one February. When the time came, the company claimed that the Teamsters had never notified the company that it wanted to reopen the contract.

We protested, of course. And held a meeting in the Teamsters hall. Somehow at the meeting a giant teamster managed to sit between each of our members, and made it clear that they didn't like dissent.

We quietly left. And as quietly organized an independent union. Being a kid from Maine I tried to talk about the coming election. I was shushed up. "Don't you know anything," I was told.

I figured the election would go down in defeat, since there had been zero discussion in the plant. In fact, we won with 80 percent of the vote. I think we were the only local in history that dared to reject the Teamsters.

Well, we negotiated higher wages, enough higher so that I felt comfortable quitting and enrolling at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, IL.

Four years later I found myself working for a tiny, non union, 2,400 circulation daily newspaper in Maine. My title was city editor, but the entire news staff consisted of me and a variety of parttime news reporters, most who covered only "society" news.

I've rarely worked harder in my life. A year later circulation had climbed to 3,300. But when the paper merged with a weekly in the same ownership a few years later, it hired in ":expert" reporters from all over New England for twice what I was earning.

When I suggested I deserved the same wages and would have to look elsewhere, management introduced me to my replacement two weeks later.

So I re-entered union ranks -- well it took a while. My first job was in a bureau in the town of the newspaper, I had left. I was sent a copy of the union contract and an invitation to join the union. I replied that I had read the contract, and its provisions seemed to be violated in the bureaus.

Two weeks later I got a reply -- from management, not the union officials. The company said that it "understood you are unhappy." I decided the union was a company union, and because of a quirk in the contract, I was able to refuse to join.

So I accepted an invitation to move to the main office of the paper, so they could build a paper trail to get rid of a trouble maker. Instead I wrote about 400,000 acres of long forgotten public lands, and before I knew it I had been chosen "Maine's Journalist of the Year." About then I joined the union, became a member of the union's board of directors, and even served a term on the union's negotiating committee.

As I studied the matter further, I had decided the union was not a company union, but just incompetent. So I worked to make it more competent.

All I'm suggesting is that unions come in all flavors, and like most institutions are subject to change.

Weary

Thanks, Weary.......for making our corporations pay more for their workers......which in turn, makes the product more expensive........which makes more people unable to afford their product........which makes people purchase said products from another country at a lower price.......which makes said company fire more overpaid workers.......which makes more people unable to buy said overpriced items.....which..........

What's the use..........

tom_alan
11-29-2008, 23:16
"A Wal-Mart worker died early Friday after an "out-of-control" mob of frenzied shoppers smashed through the Long Island store's front doors and trampled him, police said.

"The Black Friday stampede plunged the Valley Stream outlet into chaos, knocking several employees to the ground and sending others scurrying atop vending machines to avoid the horde." New York Daily News.


Weary

Two teens shot to each other to death at a Toys "R" Us in CA on "Black Friday". A fight broke out between their girl friends in the store. They each pulled out guns and shot each other. Both were dead by the end of the day. Thank God no one else was hurt.

I work retail for Best Buy as a supervisor of Inventory (Shipping/receiving) / Merchandising (Getting the product onto the floor) / Loss prevention (Keeping it from leaving when it shouldn’t). I drove past the store on my way home from my brothers on T-Day and arrived there at 5:05pm. There were two starting to form the line on a night that would hit 21’.

I had worked the night before getting the product displayed for the biggest shopping day of the year ~ “Black Friday”. I had to be at work by 3:00am on “Black Friday” as part of the management team that would put a plan in action to keep our employees and customers safe. At 5:01 it was like a feeding frenzy. Our plan went well with only one irate customer that we had to remove from the building.

The city I live in has the highest unemployment rate in the state of Colorado and we still did $373,000 in a single day. We were one of four stores in our district that did over our projection. But what are these people going to do after the Holidays? Don’t they know we are in a recessing? How are they going to pay for it all?

Monkeyboy
11-29-2008, 23:17
"A Wal-Mart worker died early Friday after an "out-of-control" mob of frenzied shoppers smashed through the Long Island store's front doors and trampled him, police said.

"The Black Friday stampede plunged the Valley Stream outlet into chaos, knocking several employees to the ground and sending others scurrying atop vending machines to avoid the horde." New York Daily News.


Weary

And the same stupidity happens every year, regardless of the economy.

You can read at least one of these types of articles EVERY holiday season.

The economy has no direct bearing on stupidity.

weary
11-30-2008, 00:01
The economy has no direct bearing on stupidity.
I never thought it did. Stupidity is usually a product of genes and of not paying attention. But stupidity has a direct bearing on the economy. That's why all these investment banks are going bankrupt or surviving on government handouts, while crippling the world economy. I suspect there must have been some dumbness at work at some point.

Weary

Monkeyboy
11-30-2008, 00:05
Yeah.........bankers runover store clerks all the time on Black Friday.

They live for that kinda stuff.

In fact, Black Friday was invented by investment bankers, just so they could screw around with the economy to get people to line up a Walmart, because they couldn't afford high priced items made by American companies due to the labor unions you worked for, just so that they could kill Walmart door greeters by trampling them to death.

If anything, Weary ol' boy, you and your Union buddies are more responsible for the death of that clerk than investment bankers..........because people can't afford to buy high priced American-union made products.

Blue Jay
11-30-2008, 06:48
Yeah.........bankers runover store clerks all the time on Black Friday.

They live for that kinda stuff.

If anything, Weary ol' boy, you and your Union buddies are more responsible for the death of that clerk than investment bankers..........

Somehow I found it hard to believe Weary drove to a LI Walmart and waited outside. Somehow I think you may have last control of your typing fingers, it happens to all of us.:confused:

rafe
11-30-2008, 09:53
If anything, Weary ol' boy, you and your Union buddies are more responsible for the death of that clerk than investment bankers..........because people can't afford to buy high priced American-union made products.

That's just unadulterated monkey-sch!tt.

oldfivetango
11-30-2008, 10:16
Monkey Sch### Aye?
I would like to challenge you and Weary to go in a Walmart,
Home Depot,or Loewes and find a simple hammer that was
actually made in the USA.
Oldfivetango

rafe
11-30-2008, 10:28
Monkey Sch### Aye?
I would like to challenge you and Weary to go in a Walmart,
Home Depot,or Loewes and find a simple hammer that was
actually made in the USA.
Oldfivetango

What's your point? Henry Ford said, many years ago, that American auto workers ought to be able to afford the products of their own labor. Blaming unions for our current economic meltdown is just plain ignorant. Stupid culture-wars stuff.

4eyedbuzzard
11-30-2008, 10:39
Monkey Sch### Aye?
I would like to challenge you and Weary to go in a Walmart,
Home Depot,or Loewes and find a simple hammer that was
actually made in the USA.
Oldfivetango

Like an Estwing or Stanley hammer?
They are still made in the US.
I worked for many years in the steel industry and also in foundry and casting. I agree that a lot of foundry work has gone to Mexico and China, but there are still a lot of tools manufactured in the US, especially professional quality tools.

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html#handtools

oldfivetango
11-30-2008, 10:46
What's your point? Henry Ford said, many years ago, that American auto workers ought to be able to afford the products of their own labor. Blaming unions for our current economic meltdown is just plain ignorant. Stupid culture-wars stuff.

My point is that there is a reason all that foreign merchandise
is in places like Walmart,Home Depot,Loewes,Ace Hardware,etc
is because of the difference in the cost of production.One of the
larger variable in the cost of production is labor costs.

Could it be that our labor costs in the USA is one reason that
all the jobs are heading overseas?Could it be that people who do
not have high paid union wages or cushy white collar jobs are flocking
to the above mentioned retailers to get the most value for their hard
earned dollars.

As for Henry Ford-he was right;they should be able to afford
their own products.That's why the local dealer here is offering
"employee pricing" now to the public.UAW members have been
buying their own goods at a whopping discount all these years while
the rest of us have paid retail!I know as I have a relative that was
in the management at GM.They just axed his healthcare-wah!

Detroit and everyone else needs to learn what the head of one of
the Japanese auto companies said many years ago-"A guy making
$8 bucks an hour cannot buy a car from a guy making $80 bucks
an hour".

Could that be why Ford has built a huge modern facility in
Brazil that is state of the art for robotics?I wonder........
Oldfivetango
ps I did not blame the unions for the economic meltdown-
but I did challenge you to go buy a hammer that was made here........

weary
11-30-2008, 11:54
I can't solve the problems inherent in the free trade treaties, though Americans would be more competitive if we had insisted that our trading partners imposed the same environmental protections as this country has enacted.

But my experience shows that it takes decent earnings for people to contribute in any meaningful way to the economy. I haven't had an earnings increase since I retired from my union job 18 years ago. As a result we contribute almost nothing to the American economy. We live a comfortable life, and manage to make contributions to our land trusts. and trail groups. Luckily our 20 year old toys: lawn mower, garden tiller, television, music system .... still function with a little tinkering. We buy stripped down, loss leader, cars, and make them last 250,000 miles. Cars that dealers carry mostly to entice people into their show rooms, that are sold only when folks like us insist.

We eat mostly what grows in the ground my tiller tills, plus whatever meat and specials that are loss leaders each week. I don't go to a gym for exercise, but I get to walk regularly in the preserves and on the trails our town land trust has created -- and occasionly on the Appalachian Trail located a hundred miles to the west.

Unions help the economy overall by negotiating decent wages, which allow their members and workers in competing businesses the option of living whatever life style they find most enjoyable.

Overall, unions are a plus for the economy, though obviously there are short term disruptions when competing with emerging third world wages.

Weary

chief
11-30-2008, 11:55
Thanks, Weary.......for making our corporations pay more for their workers......which in turn, makes the product more expensive........which makes more people unable to afford their product........which makes people purchase said products from another country at a lower price.......which makes said company fire more overpaid workers.......which makes more people unable to buy said overpriced items.....which..........

What's the use..........

Let's do it the other way...

Banish all unions and orgs who would demand decent wages - these people need to get with it, they are ignorant, blue collar peons and not deserving.
Our companies will pay less for their workers - our products will be less expensive.
We will export our inexpensive products to THAT RICH COUNTRY.
Oops, we are THAT RICH COUNTRY, where there's no market for our cheap products since we've decided our workers really don't need much!
Never fear, working children in Bangladesh are making great strides in buying power.

Bulldawg
11-30-2008, 12:13
Jesus Christ, Does anyone north of let's say Maryland think that a worker should EARN his money rather than have some Union big wheel intimidate management into giving it to him. Since Weary told his story, let's try this one on for size.

I do not belong to a Union. I have never ever thought I wanted a Union. I make a decent wage. I am able to pay my bills. We do not drive brand new cars. We live in a fair sized house, with the heat and AC we need to feel comfortable. I had a fine TBone steak last night from a cow I happen to have helped fatten up and slaughter. That steak was enjoyed with a baked potato out of my garden. I don't go to a gym to exercise, I hike a little bit here and there, in between working to earn my wage, working in my garden, or with my animals. I still wouldn't join a Union if the opportunity arouse. Even if it meant higher pay where I would not have to garden to afford all the food we wanted. Even if it meant higher pay where I would not have to raise cows and pigs to afford all the food we wanted. Even if it meant higher pay where I would not have to raise laying chickens to afford all the eggs we wanted. Even if it meant higher pay where I would not have to hike to get all the exercise we wanted. Unions have done exactly what everyone here with the exception of a few here have claimed. They have driven up the price of American goods to a point where we can no longer compete on the world market. Thanks a lot Weary!!

rafe
11-30-2008, 12:34
Unions have done exactly what everyone here with the exception of a few here have claimed. They have driven up the price of American goods to a point where we can no longer compete on the world market. Thanks a lot Weary!!

Another ignorant fool blaming unions for all that ails America. How many union salaries equals one Tiger Woods annual endorsement contract or one CEO salary? :-?

oldfivetango
11-30-2008, 12:44
Like an Estwing or Stanley hammer?
They are still made in the US.
I worked for many years in the steel industry and also in foundry and casting. I agree that a lot of foundry work has gone to Mexico and China, but there are still a lot of tools manufactured in the US, especially professional quality tools.

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html#handtools

Thanks for this info.The day I was looking for a hammer
2 years ago at Ace and Loewe's,I could not find a Stanley
and the hammers they had were all made in China.So I
bought one and it is driving nails just fine but I would rather
have bought American.
Oldfivetango

oldfivetango
11-30-2008, 12:54
Another ignorant fool blaming unions for all that ails America. How many union salaries equals one Tiger Woods annual endorsement contract or one CEO salary? :-?

I dont have to buy anything from Tiger Woods.
CEO's get what their boards and stock holders think they
have to pay in order to have the services of the CEO lest
he/she goes elsewhere.

A guy making $8 bucks an hour is not going to be able to
buy one from somebody in Detroit making $80 an hour
but he might stretch and buy the one made in Tenessee
by Honda who is paying about $48 an hour.(provided it is
"pre-owned) of course!
Oldfivetango

mudhead
11-30-2008, 12:57
Has Stanley moved their corporate back onshore?

4eyedbuzzard
11-30-2008, 13:26
Has Stanley moved their corporate back onshore?

Never moved to my knowledge. A move to Bermuda(tax haven) was considered in 2002 but never happened. I think they're still in CT.

Bulldawg
11-30-2008, 13:36
Another ignorant fool blaming unions for all that ails America. How many union salaries equals one Tiger Woods annual endorsement contract or one CEO salary? :-?


Are you jealous you don't have Tiger Woods' salary and talent?

4eyedbuzzard
11-30-2008, 14:00
Lets all please tone down personal remarks.

KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

Thank you

Bulldawg
11-30-2008, 14:07
Another ignorant fool blaming unions for all that ails America. How many union salaries equals one Tiger Woods annual endorsement contract or one CEO salary? :-?

I'm outta this fight Terp. You seem like the ignorant fool for thinking you could change my mind.

I stand behind the notion that I don't need or desire a union to get my salary for me, I will continue to do it the old fashioned way, the way that made this country great, by EARNING it. I don't need or desire hand outs. If the nation continues to slip into oblivion, I will be OK because I do not need to rely on anything other than the sweat of my brow to get by. So take the ignorant fool comment back to the hand out line Turd, because there I will not be, so there I will not see you.

Lone Wolf
11-30-2008, 14:10
moderators calling non-moderators names. what's this site coming to?

Rockhound
11-30-2008, 14:11
my only beef with unions is the lowered productivity that frequently occurs. 3 men doing the job of 1, leaving early for breaks, coming back late, milking jobs rather than getting the job done. weve all seen our fair share of shovel leaning as we pass construction crews on the highway. Need I mention the Big Dig in Boston? Protecting a workers rights and benefits is fine but when the result is a lazy unproductive workforce there is a problem

Bulldawg
11-30-2008, 14:12
my Only Beef With Unions Is The Lowered Productivity That Frequently Occurs. 3 Men Doing The Job Of 1, Leaving Early For Breaks, Coming Back Late, Milking Jobs Rather Than Getting The Job Done. Weve All Seen Our Fair Share Of Shovel Leaning As We Pass Construction Crews On The Highway. Need I Mention The Big Dig In Boston? Protecting A Workers Rights And Benefits Is Fine But When The Result Is A Lazy Unproductive Workforce There Is A Problem

Exactly!:-?:-?

nitewalker
11-30-2008, 14:37
my only beef with unions is the lowered productivity that frequently occurs. 3 men doing the job of 1, leaving early for breaks, coming back late, milking jobs rather than getting the job done. weve all seen our fair share of shovel leaning as we pass construction crews on the highway. Need I mention the Big Dig in Boston? Protecting a workers rights and benefits is fine but when the result is a lazy unproductive workforce there is a problem


ditto. the unions are for the weak who cant handle things on their own..self reliance and plain old ambition is all i need...raising chickens for the eggs is as good as it get.....peace

weary
11-30-2008, 15:35
Jesus Christ, Does anyone north of let's say Maryland think that a worker should EARN his money rather than have some Union big wheel intimidate management into giving it to him. Since Weary told his story, let's try this one on for size.

.....Unions have done exactly what everyone here with the exception of a few here have claimed. They have driven up the price of American goods to a point where we can no longer compete on the world market. Thanks a lot Weary!!
Bulldawg, you've read and believed too many myths about unions. Most locals have no "Union big wheel to intimidate management."

Most unions are run by volunteer workers in the plant or workplace. Unions are simply groups of workers who get together to negotiate a contract with their employers, just as employers get together with suppliers to negotiate favorable contracts for the goods and services they need.

The union we created in a Chicago factory had no employees. It simply got together with management and negotiated a contract they both could live with. The president and chief negotiator worked in the maintenance machine shop, turning out parts for machines that he had helped design and which occasionally broke down.

I worked for the largest newspaper in Maine. But the union had no employees. The President was a copy editor, during most of my time at the paper. Now it's an editorial writer.

Negotiations for new contracts occurred every two or three years. Negotiations typically lasted many months, sometimes more than a year. Settlements were usually based on member prospects for backpay, and management's boredom with having to spend a half day every couple of weeks rehashing working arangements and pay schedules.

These examples are not unusual. It is how most union locals function.

Sometimes locals hire skilled negotiators to help break a deadlock. But that doesn't involve intimidation. Intimidation doesn't work. Negotiation consists of convincing management to agree to a contract that is mutually advantageous.

Weary

Bulldawg
11-30-2008, 15:37
Bulldawg, you've read and believed too many myths about unions. Most locals have no "Union big wheel intimidate management."

Most unions are run by volunteer workers in the plant or workplace. Unions are simply groups of workers who get together to negotiate a contract with their employers, just as employers get together with suppliers to negotiate favorable contracts for the goods and services they need.

The union we created in a Chicago factory had no employees. It simply got together with management and negotiated a contract they both could live with. The president and chief negotiator worked in the maintenance machine shop, turning out parts for machines that broke down.

I worked for the largest newspaper in Maine. But the union had no employees. The President was a copy editor, during most of my time at the paper. Now it's an editorial writer.

Negotiations for new contracts occurred every two or three years. They typically lasted many months, sometimes years. Settlements were usually based on member prospects for backpay, and management's boredom with having to spend a half day every couple of weeks rehashing working arangements and pay schedules.

These examples are not unusual. It is how most union locals work.

Sometimes they bring in skilled negotiators to help break a deadlock. But that doesn't involve intimidation. Intimidation doesn't work. Negotiation consists of convincing management to agree to a contract that is mutually advantageous.

Weary


the unions are for the weak who cant handle things on their own..self reliance and plain old ambition is all i need...raising chickens for the eggs is as good as it get.....peace..

weary
11-30-2008, 15:44
my only beef with unions is the lowered productivity that frequently occurs. 3 men doing the job of 1, leaving early for breaks, coming back late, milking jobs rather than getting the job done. weve all seen our fair share of shovel leaning as we pass construction crews on the highway. Need I mention the Big Dig in Boston? Protecting a workers rights and benefits is fine but when the result is a lazy unproductive workforce there is a problem
Productivity is a function of management.

Weary

TD55
11-30-2008, 15:46
moderators calling non-moderators names. what's this site coming to?
Looks like a debate between the know nothings and the know it alls.:-?

gaga
11-30-2008, 16:15
Looks like a debate between the know nothings and the know it alls.:-?
actually is really healthy to let it out, and let other people see that hikers are not just some dumb, backpacking, dirty,ignorant,uncivilized,lazy,smelly...people:D, and YES the "economy" will affect the nr.of people going on the trail,because many of them already have the gear but will not have the $$$ to support themselves with(food,food... ) you can be the champion of the minimalists... but you need food in your belly to live and that costs money, if food was free i`l stop working today. it all comes down to money,sad but true.it happened to me this spring...i wanted to go(baaaad) but i had to stay and work for: money !!!

Rockhound
11-30-2008, 16:17
Productivity is a function of management.

Weary
productivity is the resposibility of each individual.

Rockhound
11-30-2008, 16:20
actually is really healthy to let it out, and let other people see that hikers are not just some dumb, backpacking, dirty,ignorant,uncivilized,lazy,smelly...people:D, and YES the "economy" will affect the nr.of people going on the trail,because many of them already have the gear but will not have the $$$ to support themselves with(food,food... ) you can be the champion of the minimalists... but you need food in your belly to live and that costs money, if food was free i`l stop working today. it all comes down to money,sad but true.it happened to me this spring...i wanted to go(baaaad) but i had to stay and work for: money !!!
If food were free it would sprout from the earth or roam the forrests....er....wait a minute.

TD55
11-30-2008, 16:40
Early July 1979 I hit the trail with $17 in my pocket. When I returned home in mid November I had about $80. Helped paint 2 houses, helped put a roof on another, did some yard work and a few other odd jobs. Spent maybe two dozen "work days" while I hked. I wanted to be on the trail, so, I made it happan.

weary
11-30-2008, 17:25
Worth saying again. The funny thing is, unions came about to keep the management from abusing the worker. What union will come to be to protect the employer.
They don't need a union. It's now called "too big to fail." Regardless of incompetent management, bigness brings taxpayer bailouts.

In fact the whole union movement began as a result of incompetent management.

In every company there are those who do the work, and those who spend their time scheming to become bosses. They are not necessarily the best. Just the best schemers.

Weary

weary
11-30-2008, 19:38
ditto. the unions are for the weak who cant handle things on their own..self reliance and plain old ambition is all i need...raising chickens for the eggs is as good as it get.....peace
Most of us without the desire to raise chickens for their eggs -- though I've pondered that possibility from time to time -- have to work for somebody. If those somebodies were uniformly competent -- or if there were enough of the competent types to go around -- no one would ever chose to join a union.

Unfortunately, until that happy -- and remote day -- of uniformly competent managements, some of us must earn our livings under the direction of incompetents. Believe me, nitewalker, when that occurs, unions are a blessing.

Weary

Sly
11-30-2008, 20:01
productivity is the resposibility of each individual.

You shouldn't make it sound like all union workers are lazy ****s. It's not true. If a boss, foreman, manager sees someone slacking it's up to them to do something about it.

Bulldawg
11-30-2008, 20:02
Most of us without the desire to raise chickens for their eggs -- though I've pondered that possibility from time to time -- have to work for somebody. If those somebodies were uniformly competent -- or if there were enough of the competent types to go around -- no one would ever chose to join a union.

Unfortunately, until that happy -- and remote day -- of uniformly competent managements, some of us must earn our livings under the direction of incompetents. Believe me, nitewalker, when that occurs, unions are a blessing.

Weary


People have a choice of whom to work for Weary. Choose to work for incompetent, ruthless, and greedy people; pay the price. Instead choose to work for good Christian people who take care of their employees. Not that hard to find; here in the South anyway. I work for some of the greatest Christian folks who pay a decent wage and will cut every corner to be certain their employees are well taken care of. It's a choice of whom you work for. It's not like you are a slave to a certain employer.

rafe
11-30-2008, 20:22
Instead choose to work for good Christian people who take care of their employees.

Work for Christians! :datz(Slaps forehead in realization of great epiphany...) Amazing! If only we knew! Centuries... nay, millenia of labor strife might have been averted!!

Datto
11-30-2008, 20:48
So I'm curious if one thinks they can collect unemployment while thru hiking.

I hiked with a woman on my AT thru-hike in Year 2000 who was collecting unemployment while she was hiking. Her boyfriend was from France and at somewhere north of Damascus her blisters had gotten the best of her and she dropped off to provide trail support to her boyfriend. That and to get her body repaired. She had her sister in another state (who evidently looked a lot like her from her ID picture) collect her unemployment checks in person while she was on the AT. Something like $320 per week she was collecting while she hiked the AT, after I'd asked her how much.

I never could figure out how I felt about that situation since she carted me to an out of the way resupply with her boyfriend's truck that night. I'd have been way hungry and in a considerable amount of pain without her assistance that evening since I'd just begun to have out-of-control eating spasms that would consume my food bag way earlier than I'd expected. Plus, I was having blister problems of my own about that time. I'd decided I'd just keep my views to myself and let the system work it's way around the situation.

One of the things she had told me in her truck that night was that she had gone to the doctor when she had left the trail and the doctor had told her that her heart rate was considerably lower than expected and he was worried about her health. She told him that she'd just come off the AT -- then it had made sense to the doctor.

I'd measured my heart rate that night and had discovered my resting pulse rate was somewhere around 60 beats per minute. That was surprising since I knew my resting pulse rate before starting at Springer was averaging 82 beats per minute.

Later, after I'd completed my thru-hike of the AT, I had a job interview in Cincinnati where I had to take a physical in order to accept the job that was offered. The nurse gave me an eye test and a hearing test and then gave me the blood pressure test and heart rate test. My heart rate was something like 56 beats per minute and she became very concerned about my health, face to face with me. I'd told her that I'd just finished thru-hiking the Appalachian Trail. Her mouth widened and she exclaimed, "I'd wanted to thru-hike the Appalachian Trail when I'd graduated from college." She and a group of women had gotten out of college and had headed to the AT to hike for a week in Georgia and she said she'd always wished she had continued on the Appalachian Trail instead of getting off after a week.

That had led to 30 minutes of discussion of the Appalachian Trail -- I think I'd caused her to rethink what she had been doing since college.

Anyway, I ended up with vastly improved vision during the physical -- 20/10 in one eye and 20/70 in the other assuming I didn't squint much. Way better vision than before I'd started my thru-hike of the Appalachian Trail.

In front of her I'd swung at a pair of imaginary bees and told her I was glad for the improvement in my vision -- now I could see the snakes.

It'd take a few seconds before I saw a glimmer of a smile on her face. Then I'd busted out laughing and she did too.

I guess you could say my vision of the world has vastly improved after the AT.

Datto

Alligator
11-30-2008, 20:50
Time out. Maybe it'll get reopened, maybe it won't:p.

weary
11-30-2008, 20:55
People have a choice of whom to work for Weary. Choose to work for incompetent, ruthless, and greedy people; pay the price. Instead choose to work for good Christian people who take care of their employees. Not that hard to find; here in the South anyway. I work for some of the greatest Christian folks who pay a decent wage and will cut every corner to be certain their employees are well taken care of. It's a choice of whom you work for. It's not like you are a slave to a certain employer.
Well, after 12 years of bouncing around, I had a degree in journalism. I didn't know any great Christian managers of newspapers. So I took those jobs that were available. Those jobs, by chance, seemed to be governed mostly by incompetents, Christian or otherwise.

I envy people who work for "good christian people, who take care of their employees." However, in my experience, Christians can be as incompetent as most of us.

Weary

4eyedbuzzard
11-30-2008, 21:08
Closed.