View Full Version : Jacket for Winter Camping
So I'm going w/ a group of friends into the Adirondacks in February. Last year it got down to -20 degrees F. Possibly some snow shoeing this time around, but alas nothing special, mostly just trying to stay warm haha.
I understand that 800 Fill is better than 650 Fill down given the same weight...but, as I view the many down jackets available I am having trouble figuring out which coats are warmer than others. For instance:
The Marmot Zeus Jacket is 1 lb. 1 oz. w/ 800 fill down:
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/appareldetail.cfm/MA4208
Then u have the Mountain Hardware Sub Zero Jack @ 1 lbs, 11 oz w/ 650-Fill Power 85/15 Goose down:
http://www.basegear.com/mountain-hardwear-subzero-jacket-down-sale.html
The Zeus is lighter, but higher fill down...the Sub Zero is more weight (more down?) but lower quality down (does the 85/15 mean ratio of down to feathers? Thus even less warmth for the weight?) and it ~looks~ fuller and warmer.
How am I supposed to know which is warmer? How do I know one jacket doesn't just have extremely heavy zippers (:p) as opposed to more ounces of down to keep me warm?
Please forgive my newbie knowledge...gotta learn somewhere, right? :)
Dirtygaiters
11-25-2008, 01:58
This is taken from another forum, but I think it's a pretty accurate statement, so I'm going to quote it here:
I lump down jackets into the following categories:
ultralight- less than 6 ounces of down, very light shell for above freezing)
sweaters- between 6-9 ounces, usually sewn through with no hood and a short cut. Good to maybe 35 degrees.
Parkas- 9-11 ounces of down, maybe baffled with a hood and longer cut. Ideal to the 20s.
Expedition- the monster puffballs.For a jacket that will keep you warm down to the -20s, you're going to want a serious expedition parka. I'd look at the Feathered Friends Rock and Ice Parka or Mountain Hardwear Absolute Zero Parka. At the least, you should make sure that the jacket has box-baffled construction, and 9 ounces of down at the least.
Regarding the Marmot Zeus jacket, that may have 800 fp down, but the loft on that jacket looks extremely thin, and it has sewn thru construction, meaning that the edges of each down compartment are lines of zero loft where the cold can get in. I wouldn't expect a jacket like that to be good if it's colder than maybe 30 degrees F. The Mountain Hardwear Sub Zero is a substantial jacket that will likely keep the average person warm down to the 20s, maybe even into the teens, but as you mentioned, it is made with 650 f.p. down so it's going to be a bit heavier than a jacket filled with premium down.
hnryclay
11-25-2008, 07:51
I have the sub-zero vest, and it is nice for layering under a shell in 10-20 degree weather. Sub-Zero weather would be a strain for it IMO.
For -20 you are going to have to go with something much warmer and more expensive than the jackets you listed. That is COLD!
I agree with the Feathered Friends suggestions above, but you might also look at the Nunatak Torre Expedition Parka: http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/garments/torre.htm
For -20 degrees I would want a jacket/parka with a hood. I didn't see a hood with either of the jackets you listed. Even if you have a warm hat, I still would like to pull a hood over the hat when its -20.
Also, if this is for -20 weather, I would get it extra larger than you normally wear. This way you will have room to add shirts/fleece/sweaters/whatever under the jacket.
I don't wear an insulated jacket in the winter, I just have a extra large un-insulated gortex shell with a good hood and long cut in the waist with longer than normal sleeves. Then I just keep adding layers under this. I like to have space to add a max of 4 layers under the shell.
Panzer
ps I don't like goose down jackets anyway, there too bulkey.
Dirtygaiters
11-25-2008, 14:02
Just a quick question to the original poster, but did you mean you would like to be able to be comfortable stand around in -20 degree weather, for instance doing camp chores, standing around camp at night, and be comfortable? Or do you intend to get into an adequately rated sleeping bag as soon as it gets too cold for you (for instance if the temp drops below 0F)? -20 is a really cold temperature to be standing around in camp, but if the average low you experience in camp is more in the 0-10 degree range, and it onyl drops into the negative teens at the midnight hour when you wouldn't be up anyway, then you could go with a slightly lighter-weight parka than the ones mentioned above. Perhaps even a Feathered Friends Volant. This is all assuming that the daytime temperature could be expected to stay above zero.
Just a word of caution here. -20 degrees is cold enough to die.
Be very careful with your planning.
Panzer
Dirtygaiters
11-25-2008, 14:32
Hopefully he would have a sleeping bag rated to at least -20 is what I was getting at...
Hopefully he would have a sleeping bag rated to at least -20 is what I was getting at...
That's what I was thinking. I don't think you'll need jacket good to -20. If is -20F DURING THE DAY..hell, I'm a wimp, I ain't gonna go out in that weather. :D
Are you going to be camping or are you staying in a cabin?
Panzer
Feral Bill
11-25-2008, 17:53
If you can afford it, get an expedition parka. $$$$$ Should weigh a couple of pounds, not be sewn through and have a hood. Otherwise, you will need several layers of lesser clothing. In sub zero weather, if you go above treeline on a windy day, you may need all your layers even walking uphill. I this is your first Adirondak winter trip, please read up on winter camping and be very cautious. You should have great fun.
-20 is like, denali or northern canada weather. that's freaking freezing. where are you planning on encountering those kind of temps?
Feral Bill
11-26-2008, 02:01
-20 is like, denali or northern canada weather. that's freaking freezing. where are you planning on encountering those kind of temps?
Not rare in the Adirondaks, Whites, or Maine. Not unpleasent, either, if you are prepared.
OK let me clean this up a bit...I appreciate the advice thus far, but here are some more details:
-I was linking to those two jackets to show my frustration in evaluatingtwo similarly priced jackets but not really knowing which would be warmer when u only have fill power and weight of the jacket to go on.
-Someone asked if -20 is the temps I'll see during the day when loafing around camp or at night...to be honest I'm not really sure. I just know my friends saw -17 last year in February near Saranac Lake in the Adirondacks (Northeast). I'm fine with planning for -20 during the day, it'll give me some head room just in case.
I'll possibly be sitting around a lot, not generating a lot of heat during the day around camp, no real hiking to speak of...I want to be warm. I'm not sure if the snow will be 'wet' at those temperatures and have it soak into my gear or not, that's also a concern.
I've narrowed my search to three jackets/parkas, here are my questions:
-Which would u pick?
-I read reviews of the synthetic DAS lasting many years, but down should last even longer?
-Down be a PIA to clean vs. the synthetic?
Sherpa Adventure Gear Men's Khumbuche Down Jacket
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___75113
Pros:
Love the green color
cheaper than others
Cons:
Not as warm as Patagonia Down Parka (750 fill vs. 800 fill)
Perhaps not as warm as Patagonia Down Parka?
It's a jacket, not a parka, less coverage?
Don't find many reviews on it...untested?
Down sucks when wet.
# Length: 27-½”
# Weight: 22 oz.
$188 shipped
Patagonia DAS Parka
http://tinyurl.com/66mmnc
Pros:
Rave reviews
Synthetic handles wetness better
Cons:
Down Sherpa jacket or Patagonia Down Parka could be warmer?
Length 29 inches
Weight 780 g (27.5 oz)
$220 shipped
Patagonia Down Parka
http://tinyurl.com/6f5pw8
Pros:
Rave reviews
800-fill down...warmest of the three I'd assume.
Cons:
Down sucks when wet.
weighs the most.
Length: dunno, but figure it is similar to DAS Parka
Weight 868 g (30.6 oz)
$227 shipped
GanGoHigh
11-26-2008, 10:31
Hey Bestr, one thing you should consider besides the total weight of the jacket is the fill weight. This is especially important with down. Example: Company A sells a 16 oz jacket with 3 oz of fill, and Company B sells a 16oz jackets with 6 oz of fill. Most companies will provide fairly accurate fill info usually on the details/specs area of their product descriptions. And one could easily compare down fill amounts to synthetics once you figure out an easy weight to warmth ratio for synthetics.
feral bill you my friend are a lot tougher than me. i worked outside last winter on a loading dock and once the temps hit the single digits i was cold all night at work
Here is a cool formula for clothing inches...
inches of clothing, I = (90-Ta)/50n - Ia
90 = Ts = skin temperature in comfortable state
Ta = air temperature in degF
n = metabolic rate
Ia = air inches (reduced by wind chill)
n = 0.72 sleeping post digestion
n = 0.80 sleeping while digesting
n = 0.80 lying post digestion
n = 0.90 lying while digesting
n = 1.0 sitting = ~100 kcal/hr for 2m^2 surface area
n = 1.2 standing
n = 1.8 slow level walking 2.5 km/hr (light work)
n = 2.6 level walking 5.0 km/hr
n = 3.6 brisk level walking 6.5 km/hr
n = 4.4 walking up 5% grade at 5.5 km/hr
n = 6.8 walking up 10% grade at 5.5 km/hr
Ia = 0.2 inches in still air, 0.1 inches in 2.5 mph wind, 0.05 in 12 mph wind, 0.02 in 50 mph wind
Examples,
-30F, standing in camp, 2.5 mph wind...
I = [90-(-30)]/[50x1.2] - 0.1 inches = 1.9 inches of clothing needed
-40F, level walking at 5.0 km/hr into 15 km/hr wind...
I = [90-(-40)]/[50x2.6] - 0.05 inches = 0.95 inches of clothing needed
0F, light camp work, still air
I = [90-(0)]/[50x1.8] - 0.2 inches = 0.8 inches of clothing needed
18F, brisk level walking 6.5 km/hr
I = [90-(18)]/[50x3.6] - ~0.07 inches = 0.33 inches of clothing needed
references/assumptions:
http://dspace.ncaor.org:8080/dspace/bitstream/123456789/291/3/article31.pdf
75% of heat loss is conductive (i.e. non-sweating 33degC skin temperature)
4 clo per inch = 6.2 tog per inch (i.e. good insulation and thin shells)
1 MET = 100kcal/hr sitting for 2 m^2 of surface area
full and consistent thickness coverage, dry feet
neutral thermal radiation
Something else to consider...
2.0" on 50% of body and 0.5" on 50% of body = 0.80-0.85" not 1.25"
So a 1.5" down jacket, waist length without hood, adds only 0.30-0.35" of overall thickness.
This emphasizes the importance of uniform coverage in your extreme conditions.
the math...
still air...
1/[0.5/2.2 +0.5/0.7]-0.2 = 0.86"
high winds...
1/[0.5/2 +0.5/0.5] = 0.80" (not counting bellows effect)
Now maybe all this math is beyond me, but what are you trying to say?
Jak- How do your formulas account for different types of insulation? .5 inches 800 fill down is different than .5 inches of Thinsulate, ya know?
ew jak sup w/ all that math crap? i liked it better when you just responded w/ "wool"
Jak- How do your formulas account for different types of insulation? .5 inches 800 fill down is different than .5 inches of Thinsulate, ya know?Despite what the folks at 3M may say, there is actually very little difference per inch. 4.7 clo per inch is the theoretical maximum for air. 4.0 clo per inch is a practical value for all clothing insulation, whether it is wool, fleece, down, synthetic, including thinsulate. Thinsulate might be a little better, per inch, but there's not much room for improvement between 4.0 and 4.7 . When comparing different systems the insulation per pound will vary some, as will other considerations, but the insulation per inch is pretty much 4.0 clo/inch, as long as its reasonably fluffy.
ew jak sup w/ all that math crap? i liked it better when you just responded w/ "wool"Just trying to be objective.
Better math crap than marketing hype.
What happened to KISS?
If you hanging out during the day in -20F, you need the big, bomber down coat as others suggested. Like this one:
http://featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/Icefall.html
Besides being light, it may make your waller lighter, too. ;)
If you are not hanging out in -20F (perhaps 0F +/-) , than a standard winter down coat should be fine. (Something like this maybe? http://www.ems.com/catalog/product_detail_square.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455 24442593027)
The largest difference between the two jackets is the hood.
I suspect you are going to sleep in the -20f weather, but not play in it? Be sure your sleeping bag is -20F...
If you are a wimp like me, then you can easily spend time in -20F temps. You pack in some linguine, pancetta, mushrooms, onions, olive oil, garlic, eggs and cheese. Make some linguine carbonara, have some wine , add something extra to your cocoa, bake a pie and then go skiing all the next day in the beautiful CO mountains. Oh yes..and stay in a backcountry hut. :)
KISS means that for -30F you need an inch of clothing all over, as long as its dry,
which can be a mix of silk, wool, fleece, and yes, down, plus a shell layer.
My KISS means at -30 I need a woodstove with a noisy teakettle.
And an airline schedule.
I like the woodstove idea.
The Winter Fields
- Sir Charles G.D.Roberts
WINDS here, and sleet, and frost that bites like steel.
The low bleak hill rounds under the low sky.
Naked of flock and fold the fallows lie,
Thin streaked with meagre drift. The gusts reveal
By fits the dim grey snakes of fence, that steal
Through the white dusk. The hill-foot poplars sigh,
While storm and death with winter trample by,
And the iron fields ring sharp, and blind lights reel.
Yet in the lonely ridges, wrenched with pain,
Harsh solitary hillocks, bound and dumb,
Grave glebes close-lipped beneath the scourge and chain,
Lurks hid the germ of ecstasy—the sum
Of life that waits on summer, till the rain
Whisper in April and the crocus come.
My kind of poetry:
Hickory, dickery dock. Two mice ran up her sock. One stopped at the garter, but the other was smarter.
Hickery, dickery dock.
My KISS means at -30 I need a woodstove with a noisy teakettle.
http://www.pmags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17867&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=9b7269e0127675108ae6001d1d0952b4
Fine spot to hide!
Can't imagine it is that far below zero, it's snowing. But it does look nippy.
Feral Bill
11-26-2008, 19:23
[quote=Mags;730591]What happened to KISS?
If you hanging out during the day in -20F, you need the big, bomber down coat as others suggested. Like this one:
http://featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/Icefall.html
Besides being light, it may make your waller lighter, too. ;)
Feral Bill wants it!
It costs the world but should last for decades.
Now, about that money:-?
Feral Bill wants it!
It costs the world but should last for decades.
Now, about that money:-?
I noticed this after I posted the link, but apparently you can rent it at the retail store (right across the street from the flagship REI).
"The retail store also rents Icefalls."
I suspect many people doing Denali fly out of Seattle. If you need a big, bomber jacket...you can rent one! Of course, if you don't leave near Seattle or are flying through... Who knows, maybe they'll rent one over the phone if you call and ask nicely.
Of course, this looks nice too for a little less:
http://www.hermitshut.com/wemomeja.html
Done! (finally...)
Thanks for everyone's opinions and advice...if I freeze my buns off on this trip I know who I'll point the finger at. :lol:
-20?
Down?
Can you say vapor barrier?
I used a vapor barrier shirt from Stephenson's Warmlite back in the 1980s when I did a lot of winter hiking. It was worth its weight in gold because it kept the moisture out of my clothing. I also used one of their sleeping bags (heavy by today's standards, but with a built in down air mat and two layer top). As far as I know, they're still in business, but if not, you owe it to yourself to check out vapor barrier clothing for extreme cold. The socks are remarkable. I once stepped into a freezing river with one foot and within 10 min. it was as warm as the other, though the outer boot froze solid.
Feral Bill
11-27-2008, 14:10
-20?
Down?
Can you say vapor barrier?
I used a vapor barrier shirt from Stephenson's Warmlite back in the 1980s when I did a lot of winter hiking. It was worth its weight in gold because it kept the moisture out of my clothing. I also used one of their sleeping bags (heavy by today's standards, but with a built in down air mat and two layer top). As far as I know, they're still in business, but if not, you owe it to yourself to check out vapor barrier clothing for extreme cold. The socks are remarkable. I once stepped into a freezing river with one foot and within 10 min. it was as warm as the other, though the outer boot froze solid.
Speaking of vapor barriers, what are you using for boots? For reliable warmth in the 'daks, surplus Mickey Mouse boots can not be beat. Not especially light, but neither are frostbitten feet.
These are my boots:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=48153
i rock the mickey mouse boots as well during the winter when snow gets heavy. although they're kind of slippy
Feral Bill
12-01-2008, 00:31
These are my boots:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=48153
Eventually, sweat will dampen the insulation of those. Consider either a spare set of liners or a vapor barrior between you socks and the liners. A heavy plastic sack would do. Besides being cold, wet liners can freeze into very non-footlike shapes overnight.
In cold weather, multiple layers of wool is nice under a tight weaven cotton anorak. Waterproof outer clothes though have the advantage of the possibility of shaking off frozen sweat, where cotton will remain frozen. Down is wonderful too, but not if wet. Hands, feet and head needs good protection as well.
taildragger
12-01-2008, 02:53
updated ems link for any whose lurking and might want one
http://www.ems.com/catalog/product_detail_square.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455 24442598109&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=282574488338501
Add in a JRB down hood, and you've got a decent setup
LIhikers
12-01-2008, 22:36
I did a trip with temperatures like that last winter in northern Minnesota. Instead of relying on one jacket to stay warm I used a mutitude of layers of things I already owned. Fist layer was a long sleeve, turtle neck, tee shirt of a technical, wicking fabric. Then came a simmilar, but heavier polypropolene shirt. Over that was a nylon, long sleeve, button down, shirt. A 200 weight, fleece, vest was next. Next layer was a 300 weight, windproof, fleece jacket with a high collar. On top of that, when needed went a Marmot Precip jacket. That combination did just fine to -25 below zero. Some times the temps were warmer and I'd unzip, or remove, some layers so as to not work up a sweat.
Tipi Walter
12-01-2008, 22:50
MAGS: How would you compare the Feathered Friends Icefall parka with the Marmot 8000M parka? Both look danged nice.
gonewalkabout
12-01-2008, 22:51
So I'm going w/ a group of friends into the Adirondacks in February. Last year it got down to -20 degrees F. Possibly some snow shoeing this time around, but alas nothing special, mostly just trying to stay warm haha.
I understand that 800 Fill is better than 650 Fill down given the same weight...but, as I view the many down jackets available I am having trouble figuring out which coats are warmer than others. For instance:
The Marmot Zeus Jacket is 1 lb. 1 oz. w/ 800 fill down:
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/appareldetail.cfm/MA4208
Then u have the Mountain Hardware Sub Zero Jack @ 1 lbs, 11 oz w/ 650-Fill Power 85/15 Goose down:
http://www.basegear.com/mountain-hardwear-subzero-jacket-down-sale.html
The Zeus is lighter, but higher fill down...the Sub Zero is more weight (more down?) but lower quality down (does the 85/15 mean ratio of down to feathers? Thus even less warmth for the weight?) and it ~looks~ fuller and warmer.
How am I supposed to know which is warmer? How do I know one jacket doesn't just have extremely heavy zippers (:p) as opposed to more ounces of down to keep me warm?
Please forgive my newbie knowledge...gotta learn somewhere, right? :)
I looked at the Zeus in Campmor last week. It has very little loft. I am a 46er and have camped up there in the winter. Look for a jakect that has a lot of loft. I still use a climb high down sweater I got in 93. It only has 500 fill but out lofts many more expensive jakects avaiable today. Its 25 oz total wt. IMHO you wont find a high loft jacket that weighs musch less than 20 oz.
EMS has there 600 fill jackects on sale for $49. They weigh 21 oz. Not a bad choice.
taildragger
12-01-2008, 22:58
^^^^
The ems jackets have decent loft in the front, they are lacking a little in the rear. At least mine do, but that may be due to the cut (XL)
BTW, I am assuming that you speak of the glaciers
I use an rei down parka with zip off arms, when I stop for more than 5 min. I put my legs in the sleeping bag. When walking I do not need much to keep my legs warm. At night the zip off arms become booties and the rest of the parka is a vest. Each item carried should be used in many ways
Thomas Cohn
12-02-2008, 10:28
You said 'winter camping', I view this differently then winter hiking... winter camping for me means hiking a few miles in... staying in one place for a few days... making a big fire and cooking hearty food...
This being said... staying warm in this setting at -20F is not too bad, you are alot warmer by the fire. In fact heavy insulation tends to prevent the fire from warming your body - I tend to leave my jacket open. Also synthetic materials get burned easily by embers - if you are going to have an expensive jacket you may want to have a inexpensive shell over it to protect it.
When you get cold you then just go out and cut more firewood - this will warm you up quickly and you won't need a heavy jacket with this level of activity. Again you may not want to wear an expensive down jacket because it is pretty easy to tear it or get a hole cutting and carrying logs.
In this type of setting wool or even cotton is better. At those extreme cold temps the last thing you need to worry about is getting wet... things freeze dry and you can just shake off ice/snow.
Depending on your planned activities you may want to consider this...
wouldn't loft be the real key for a down jacket? if applying the sleeping bag principle, then laying 2 jackets down side by side and seeing which one rises higher would tell you which one will keep you warmer. AMIRITE?
taildragger
12-02-2008, 14:25
wouldn't loft be the real key for a down jacket? if applying the sleeping bag principle, then laying 2 jackets down side by side and seeing which one rises higher would tell you which one will keep you warmer. AMIRITE?
Yes, but fit, stitching and shell construction might be more important in a jacket, since you won't be just using it in a sheltered environment.
so wise. you're like a miniature budda covered in hair
Taildragger-you got a beer gut as big as Buddha?
taildragger
12-02-2008, 16:18
Taildragger-you got a beer gut as big as Buddha?
In the winter that gut is better than wool. Its warm, and I can metabolize it for extra heat. No need to pack olive oil :banana
But no, I don't, if I did it would make it hard for me to fit into my clothes, or strap my pack around my waist.
He must have meant the smart thing then.
If it makes you happy, then I am glad. ummmm
taildragger
12-02-2008, 16:31
Yes, but fit, stitching and shell construction might be more important in a jacket, since you won't be just using it in a sheltered environment.
Hmm, thought that this might have been insightful to some, since the jacket will obviously be used in different environments, and will need to reflect this. But then...
so wise. you're like a miniature budda covered in hair
Sarcasm
Taildragger-you got a beer gut as big as Buddha?
Sarcastic response to sarcasm
In the winter that gut is better than wool. Its warm, and I can metabolize it for extra heat. No need to pack olive oil :banana
But no, I don't, if I did it would make it hard for me to fit into my clothes, or strap my pack around my waist.
Attempt at humor on WB
He must have meant the smart thing then.
If it makes you happy, then I am glad. ummmm
looks like humor failed.:(
Attempt at humor on WB
:(
I got it. My attempt at humor failed.
(But I will keep repeating the mantra.) unnyellimahn
MAGS: How would you compare the Feathered Friends Icefall parka with the Marmot 8000M parka? Both look danged nice.
I honestly don't know from 1st hand experience.
The Marmot one is heavier than the icefall, but not as heavy as this one:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/RockandIce.html
It is also about halfway in price, too.
So, depends on what you are doing. Personally, I think I'd be VERY happy with the Icefall for most conditions. It is FF, so you know it is good quality!
patagonia's Das Parka is on clearance in XL and XXL for you bigger guys. $72.00
i'd buy for sure if i was that big
superman
12-04-2008, 20:58
This is the way we did it in the late 60s and early 70s...maybe not everyone did it this way. Temps were around zero so we wore snow mobile suits w/hoods attached. We used two sheets of plastic instead of a tent. We used spruce bows over us. One sheet of plastic was laid over the bows and then covered with snow making a completely enclosed shelter. The other piece of plastic was laid in the floor of the shelter with our sleeping bags on it. I made a hole in the center of the bottom of a plastic garbage bag and stuck the bow ends through the hole. That made an excellent door. Camp was made near enough to a fast running stream so we half filled a garbage bag with water. We hung it in camp and made a hole just above the water level. To get water you just pushed up on the bottom of the bag. Apricot brandy was the drink around the campfire. Those were good times but if the temp warmed to freezing, we had to leave the woods.:)
That's a great account superman. Thanks.
I found the bit of having to leave the woods once it warmed up interesting. I have heard accounts of the woods in late winter, March supposedly being the worst month around here, but I have never experienced the deep woods myself that time of year.
superman
12-04-2008, 22:35
That's a great account superman. Thanks.
I found the bit of having to leave the woods once it warmed up interesting. I have heard accounts of the woods in late winter, March supposedly being the worst month around here, but I have never experienced the deep woods myself that time of year.
Yeah, it was magic times back then. My ex and I used to hike/camp in January and February in New Hampshire which lasted until we got married. 18.5 years later just before the judge entered the court at our first divorce hearing she informed me that she never had a good time with me ...ever. I said, what about sleeping in the woods in January? Well, when she said that it wasn't a good time I told her that I faked every organism. That was when the judge walked in as she and her attorney were laughing like a couple monkeys. Unfortunately they got to keep laughing like that.:)
LOL. I haven't had much luck dragging my wife out into the woods with me.
Perhaps its just as well I guess. I don't have a basement so I guess the woods is my man space.
I don't see alot of other people where I hike and camp but I know there are alot of excellent women hikers out there, and I've competed against alot of excellent women sailors also. Still not sure why I didn't marry one of them, but I don't think that's really up to us. I know we do the asking, but that doesn't really mean squat does it. lol
My wife keeps a really nice place though. Always a great place to go home to.
the das parka special i mentioned is at www.patagonia.com (http://www.patagonia.com)
look under web specials
I wish they made men's down coats longer, like they do for women.
Down to the knees long. Really big to, to wear over all you other layers.
the das parka special i mentioned is at www.patagonia.com (http://www.patagonia.com)
look under web specials
Found it, now one is on its way to Allen Mountain. Maybe I can wear it over my last gear purchase, http://carharttimages.carhartt.com/is-viewers/flash/genericzoom.swf?serverUrl=/is/image/&config=Carhartt/default_config&contentRoot=http://carharttimages.carhartt.com/StaticContent&image=Carhartt/R02_RS :D
i so wish they had it in a L for that price :(
nice, carhartt must make soooo much money off of central PA