View Full Version : Down vs Primaloft
The more I think I have it figured out, the worse it gets. I'm trying to move away from my fleece for the cooler hiking days and nights. Anywhere above 20 is fine with me. I've tried reading old post, but couldn't find what I was looking for.
I went to an outfitters today to try on the different montbells' and pantagonias. I ran into two problems. The salesman never heard of montbell and they were sold out of the pantagonia. The salesman did show me a mountain hardware jacket made with primaloft. It looked well made, but haven't heard anything about it. The other jacket I wanted to see was the pantagonia R4 jacket, just to see what it was about. They didn't have this in stock either.
I wanted to try on a MB u.l. down jacket or the inner liner to see how they fit. But as stated before, they had no clue to MB.
On the way home I started to second guess my 1st choice of a down jacket.
Does a jacket lose its loft. I have a down bag and always leave it loose at home. On the trail I open it up as soon as possible. So lets say I start at Springer in march or april. I guees I would have to loft it every night? A warm week of hiking and not having to use it would make it lose its loft if just left in my backpack, right? Do I now need to rethink evreything? Does primaloft work just as well?
Thanks for any input! {good or bad}
From all I have read and heard, Down will outlast any of the synthetics, compressing hurts the synthetics more than it does down.
My method for all my lofting items is to not pack them in a stuff sack. I place a garbage bag in the base of my pack, place sleeping bag and any other "must stay dry" items in with it. I loosly close the garbage bag, keeping the opening near the center of the pack, then continue packing. Not confining the sleeping bag to a stuff sack allows it to more efficiently fill all the nooks and cranies of the pack itself. It also allows me to compress the bag no more than necessary. It will continue to compress as you add more items to the pack, so you really don't loose any space. Leaving the garbage bag just loosely closed allows the excess air to evacuate as needed.
This method has worked for me for years. At night, if you won't be using your down jacket, just fluff it up a bit right in the pack.
bigcranky
12-02-2008, 19:32
Was the jacket you tried on the Compressor jacket? It's nice. If you stuff it hard, you'll lose some loft over time. I think you can get more warmth for the same weight (and close to the same cost) with a down jacket, though. The mid-level Montbell (the Alpine Light?) seems to be the best combo of warmth and weight, IMHO.
Yes, it was the Compressor jacket. It seemed nice. I hope to find a place around here to try on the mb ultra light. I hate the idea of ordering something I haven't tried on.
Hmmm... What to do?
I noticed somewhere on line today, an Alpine Light for 117.98 and the u.l. inner jacket for 116.98. Are these good deals?
I used a Montbell down jacket on the CDT this summer and it seem to be just as fluffy as ever, despite having spent a lot of time squashed. I love that jacket.
bigcranky
12-02-2008, 22:00
There is a 20% discount at Prolite Gear right now. Yes, that's a good deal.
http://www.prolitegear.com/Montbell.htm
hnryclay
12-02-2008, 23:50
I replaced my fleece with a montbell Thermalite, I love it so far. Too hot to hike in for me unless it is below 20. This thing weighs nothing, and you could compress it into a small 6x3" stuff sack.
The more I think I have it figured out, the worse it gets. I'm trying to move away from my fleece for the cooler hiking days and nights. Anywhere above 20 is fine with me. I've tried reading old post, but couldn't find what I was looking for.
I went to an outfitters today to try on the different montbells' and pantagonias. I ran into two problems. The salesman never heard of montbell and they were sold out of the pantagonia. The salesman did show me a mountain hardware jacket made with primaloft. It looked well made, but haven't heard anything about it. The other jacket I wanted to see was the pantagonia R4 jacket, just to see what it was about. They didn't have this in stock either.
I wanted to try on a MB u.l. down jacket or the inner liner to see how they fit. But as stated before, they had no clue to MB.
On the way home I started to second guess my 1st choice of a down jacket.
Does a jacket lose its loft. I have a down bag and always leave it loose at home. On the trail I open it up as soon as possible. So lets say I start at Springer in march or april. I guees I would have to loft it every night? A warm week of hiking and not having to use it would make it lose its loft if just left in my backpack, right? Do I now need to rethink evreything? Does primaloft work just as well?
Thanks for any input! {good or bad}
I know the feeling. I used to think my brain was going to explode trying to sort out all the gear options and what was best for my hiking. But, be patient. U R figuring out what's best for U! Don't become frustrated. At some pt. U will realize it's part of the journey. And, I'll let U in on something else, U will never know it all! U and your hiking will be constantly evolving. OK, enough of Dr. Phil.
If the outfitter doesn't know about Montbell gear consider going to another outfitter or sales associate. I have Montbell's Thermawrap vest and jacket. I'm almost certain they R made of the synthetic material Exceloft(check their website), which is similar to Primaloft. I like the vest as a lite wt. insulating layering piece and the jacket as a lite wt. camp jacket. I use these types of synthetics in mid layer and outer garments when I expect consistent wet weather hiking, as they retain more warmth if they should get damp/slightly wet when compared to down. I found it hard to find an outfitter that carried these Montbell pieces in the US so I could try them on before I bought. Both pieces have an athletic/snug fit as I find most Montbell clothing products do. If U buy either piece and have a thick mid section/big build or want to wear heavy layers underneath size one up. The U.L. versions R just that. They R great products but need some TLC. The U.L. versions R not the warmest. By that I mean they R made from U.L. materials using the barest amts. of those materials. They should be fine on the AT during typical thru-hiking months.
Patagonia is mainstream; it's seems to be everywhere these days. Keep looking and U should be able to find an outfitter where U can try on their clothing. I have Patagonia's down sweater vest. Owned it for about a yr. Used it nearly everyday in Oregon and Washington on the PCT this yr. as a mid or outer layer insulating piece. I didn't wear it a lot in the rain(I just didn't get rained on very often on the PCT this yr.), but I had no problem retaining its loft when I wore it under a WP shell when it was cold and wet. Down has a great(I think the best) warmth to wt. ratio but when it gets wet it loses its loft and much of its warmth. If your down gear retains its loft, and that means U need to keep it dry and noncompacted for extended periods, I feel nothing beats it.
The MH Compressor jacket looks like a good alternative for the AT when wetter conditions R expected or as an all weather insulating piece. This jacket can do it all all the time on an AT thru-hike. Layer a WP shell over it, put a layer or two underneath it and U have solved your wet cold weather hiking dilemma. Or, use it as a camp jacket or when U stop. Dress up or down as conditions dictate. My main concern is the $(150-170)?. Personally, I think I can do better with the price and save a bit of wt. by going with a different synthetic insulating piece, like the MB Thermawrap.
Sounds like what U do with your down sleeping bag is on target. Lyle gave U some additional good sleeping bag tricks. Pull it out of your pack when U make camp and fluff it up. Make dinner. Crawl into lofted sleeping bag with full belly. Look up at stars and moon. Pinch yourself. CARPE DIEM!
taildragger
12-03-2008, 00:28
how do these synthetic alternatives stack up to the military field liner jacket?
how do these synthetic alternatives stack up to the military field liner jacket?
I'm not familiar with the military field jackets, but U have to consider the military has different priorities than an AT hiker in what qualities they want in their gear. I would venture to believe that the military's top priorities are performance, durability, and costs(unless its a $1000 toilet seat that needs replacing every yr., sorry I couldn't resist). BUT, R they your top priorities? Sure, I suppose I could find a cheap durable canvas tent in good used condition that was used by the Army in Vietnam, but it wouldn't be my first choice of shelters on the AT! Likewise, a Montbell U.L. Thermawrap jacket wouldn't make it out of boot camp in one piece. That's not to say U can't find inexpensive usable gear at army surplus stores.
If it helps, when I consider purchasing any piece of hiking gear for myself I generally consider my top four priorities to be:
1) Performance
2) Weight
3) Durability
4) Price
I'm not familiar with the military field jackets, but U have to consider the military has different priorities than an AT hiker in what qualities they want in their gear. I would venture to believe that the military's top priorities are performance, durability, and costs(unless its a $1000 toilet seat that needs replacing every yr., sorry I couldn't resist). BUT, R they your top priorities? Sure, I suppose I could find a cheap durable canvas tent in good used condition that was used by the Army in Vietnam, but it wouldn't be my first choice of shelters on the AT! Likewise, a Montbell U.L. Thermawrap jacket wouldn't make it out of boot camp in one piece. That's not to say U can't find inexpensive usable gear at army surplus stores.
If it helps, when I consider purchasing any piece of hiking gear for myself I generally consider my top four priorities to be:
1) Performance
2) Weight
3) Durability
4) Price
I don't have the field liner jacket, I have the pants. They are light and warm. The price is definitely right, about $6.50. They are meant to be worn underneath a shell of some kind, hence the "liner". The main drawback is that they do not compress nearly as well as some other options, and they do not make any kind of fashion statement. Well, maybe they do, but not the kind most folks would go out of their way for.:D
They are an excellent option if on a tight budget or you are just "tight" naturally.
take-a-knee
12-03-2008, 08:56
I'm not familiar with the military field jackets, but U have to consider the military has different priorities than an AT hiker in what qualities they want in their gear. I would venture to believe that the military's top priorities are performance, durability, and costs(unless its a $1000 toilet seat that needs replacing every yr., sorry I couldn't resist). BUT, R they your top priorities? Sure, I suppose I could find a cheap durable canvas tent in good used condition that was used by the Army in Vietnam, but it wouldn't be my first choice of shelters on the AT! Likewise, a Montbell U.L. Thermawrap jacket wouldn't make it out of boot camp in one piece. That's not to say U can't find inexpensive usable gear at army surplus stores.
If it helps, when I consider purchasing any piece of hiking gear for myself I generally consider my top four priorities to be:
1) Performance
2) Weight
3) Durability
4) Price
I've used these for 30yrs, just as good as a light Montbell, it just needs head insulation. No canvas included.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41034&highlight=Liner+mod
Thought I would weigh in. It is mostly above 20F here also, but can go -20F.
Above 20F...
BOTTOM LAYER for 20F
skin layer of choice
200wt fleece pants
wind layer of choice
hiking shorts or wool boxers
... when moving I would normally remove the wind layer and one of the others. The 200wt fleece pants aren't that bad really as you can blouse them up and they breathe pretty good with the wind layer removed, and you could leave the hiking shorts home maybe as 200wt fleece pants often have pockets. If I did that I might add wool boxers. I might try this this winter, leaving the 200wt fleece pants on all the time for more room in my pack.
EXTRA BOTTOM LAYER for -20F ???
Good question. When moving, all of the above. When sitting standing around??
Option 1: sleeping bag
Option 2: down pants
Option 3: synthetic pants
Option 4: wool long underwear, looser than normal skin layer
I kinda like Option 4 because it also doubles as extra sleeping layer for -20F, and it doesn't add any extra shell layers, and I can just use it as a pillow if I don't get -20F. I think this is a good option if you have the means to dry wool out with fire when needed, and if you don't need lots of extra thickness for -20F. If you need a full half inch then I think down pants might be better, but I don't get -20F enough that I can't get by with fleece and wool.
TOP LAYER for 20F
skin layer of choice
medium wool sweater of choice
wind layer of choice
rain poncho/tarp, yeah you can get rain at 20F.
... when moving I would normally remove the wind layer and the skin layer and just hike or ski in the wool sweat and let the wind blow through and dry it out. This is a really good way to go. You can wear a very thick wool sweater this was and not have it be too warm. Dark colours are best for soaking up sunlight. I think hand knit shetland wool is best for this, and for mitts. Alpaca is great is dry cold, and for hats and scarves. Merino is better as a skin layer, and for long wool underwear, but makes a great medium wool sweater also. Sheltand is just as good once you get thicker though. Thicker sweaters are also a lot faster to hand knit. :)
EXTRA TOP LAYER for -20F ???
Good question. When moving, all of the above is plenty. When sitting standing around??
Option 1: sleeping bag, questionably safe, and kinda boring
Option 2: down jacket
Option 3: synthetic jacket
Option 4: wool long underwear, looser than normal skin layer
Option 5: make the first wool sweater above thicker
Option 6: 2nd wool sweater
Option 7: 200wt fleece sweater
I don't like option 1. My sleeping bag isn't warm enough for that option anyway. I like option 4, because I have to make up some ground with my sleeping bag anyway for -20F, but I don't think option 4 alone is enough for your top layer. In addition to option 4 maybe options 5 or option 6. Option 5 is better if you expect mostly cold dry conditions with some sunshine. Option 6 might be better if you are expecting alot of cold wet rain and snow conditions in addition to the risk of an extreme cold snap. A good compromise is a thicker wool sweater and 100wt fleece. I like being able to kick the fleece around. I don't think a 2nd wool sweater is a good option because it can get wet and heavy if removed. I would go with a down jacket if I was expecting days of MOSTLY -20F with lots of standing around or slow trudging and I needed at least a full half inch of down. I think I would want it long though, and maybe skip the down pants. I would go with good synthetic for DIY if I I couldn't get a down long coat and hood in the length and light shell that I want. I think just below the knee would be good, with a very light nylon shell. I think I would still only make it a 1/2" or so, because I would still have the other layers under it.
I meant option 4 plus option 5 or option 7, not option 6.
Thanx, Lyle and take-a-knee. I knew I could learn something on WB today. I feels I's mas mceducated taday. I'll have to check those liners out at a surplus store.
I meant option 4 plus option 5 or option 7, not option 6.
What about Area 54, Section 8, and Route 66?
Thank you everybody for your insights. I have purchased the Alpine Light from prolightgear this evening. Unfortunately, my size only came in black. Not a bad color for the winter though. The sun will help warm it up.
What to ponder upon now????
taildragger
12-03-2008, 21:49
What to ponder upon now????
The question to which the answer is 42
From all I have read and heard, Down will outlast any of the synthetics, compressing hurts the synthetics more than it does down.
My method for all my lofting items is to not pack them in a stuff sack. I place a garbage bag in the base of my pack, place sleeping bag and any other "must stay dry" items in with it. I loosly close the garbage bag, keeping the opening near the center of the pack, then continue packing. Not confining the sleeping bag to a stuff sack allows it to more efficiently fill all the nooks and cranies of the pack itself. It also allows me to compress the bag no more than necessary. It will continue to compress as you add more items to the pack, so you really don't loose any space. Leaving the garbage bag just loosely closed allows the excess air to evacuate as needed.
This method has worked for me for years. At night, if you won't be using your down jacket, just fluff it up a bit right in the pack.
Very good advice. I couldn't have said it better. Took the words out of my mouth.
I would like to add that a fleece with a wind shell might be more versatile than any of the synth. jackets out there unless it gets really cold, then down would be better.
With fleece, you don't need a shell. With synth. or down, you need both an inner and outer fabric layer. True, the outer fabric layer acts as a wind barrier, allowing the underlaying insulation to do a better job of keeping you warm, but, with fleece and a windbreaker, you can wear only the windbreaker in fairly warm but windy or wet weather, the fleece alone if it's a little colder, or both together, rivaling the warmth of a high tech synth jacket (just a little heavier and bulkier). A plus is that, if your outerwear gets wet, you can separate them and they will dry more quickly than a shelled synth jacket.
Backpacking Light did a test of a garment with Polarguard (what type, I don't recall) against one with Primaloft, and to their surprise, the Polarguard one actually retained its loft wet better, even though it absorbed more water weight than the Primaloft. The reason was that the Polarguard is a continuous fiber insulation as opposed to Primaloft which is basically short fibers which don't have as much "bounce" as the Polarguard.
Last but not least, I have a synth. Polarguard jacket made by Golite that I bought about 3 years ago. I rarely use it because it isn't as warm as my down jacket which only weighs a few ounces more, and isn't as versatile as my old fleece and windshirt combination.