View Full Version : Self defense
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 14:57
I've been thinking about signing up for some form of self defense class before my 2009 thru.
Question. What do you think would be the best fighting discipline i.e. karate, kung fu, tae kwon do, krav maga. Against animals or unruly hikers.
I was thinking tae kwon do, since it involves a lot of kicks and you could keep your distance from bears, you would also be able to punt mice and other small varmints.
superman
12-06-2008, 15:05
Lmao
You could bring a single wooden hiking staff, and learn to use it.
The chinese wushu atheletes seem to be very good with a pointed stick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbBFtP9snVA&feature=related
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 15:11
I've ruled out Krav Maga. I read and understand it involves a lot of close quarters techniques. I'd like to keep at least an arms distance from bears.
There are other forms of wushu, but I would start with the staff. A staff would not hurt so much as a spear when it is removed from your butt after your first bear encounter, or local yokels.
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 15:17
I've already invested in Kevlar underwear to prevent the entrance of any foreign objects into my rectum.
Seriously though, I think carrying a sigle hiking staff is a very natural thing to do. They only need to weigh a pound or two, and if your hiking with a small child and happen to surprise a bear, which is pretty rare, or encounter some unfriendly dogs, which migh be more common, I think just having a long stick in your hand without any training at all would be enough to improve your posture considerably, which is half the battle.
Plus it would be something to practice with on a long trip, and give your arms some exercise.
LOL, unless you're utterly gifted, it takes many months, more like years before any of this sort of training might pay off in a real fight. It's also just plain silly. Your best defense is what's between your ears. Even buttercups like Bill Bryson and me can hike the AT. Reeelaaaax and take a deep breath.
Homer&Marje
12-06-2008, 15:25
I've ruled out Krav Maga. I read and understand it involves a lot of close quarters techniques. I'd like to keep at least an arms distance from bears.
I wouldn't rule it out. It's very useful in many ways, close quarters training involves always aiming for vital areas, quickly and repeatedly to do as much damage in the least amount of time. If a bear charges you, you're not going to kick it but you might have a chance of poking one of it's eyes out with a few well place fingers. A pointed knuckle blow to the jugular will help, but I just don't see the scenario really coming up too much:D
I carry a large, strong hiking stick. Would work well as a 5' bat.
If you wanted to be a more anglo-saxon approach... :)
http://www.quarterstaff.org/gallery.html
or... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bCyIAsSid8
ChinMusic
12-06-2008, 15:26
ATX - Just travel with someone you can out-run.
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 15:27
I'm not really worried about attacks. It would be interesting to see if a UFC fighter could actually complete a thru hike. They're supposed to be BMF's after all.
WalkingStick75
12-06-2008, 15:29
Basic self defense is good to know but a street fighter can take out any martial arts better to use common sense, if something does not feel right its probably not. I have left only a few camps because I didn't like who I was going to spend the night with. I just told them I wanted to push on, hiked a mile or two and made a cold camp off the trail.
LOL, unless you're utterly gifted, it takes many months, more like years before any of this sort of training might pay off in a real fight. It's also just plain silly. Your best defense is what's between your ears. Even buttercups like Bill Bryson and me can hike the AT. Reeelaaaax and take a deep breath.I think that's the advantage of a big stick.
For something like a vicious dog it doesn't take any training. Its pretty natural. I wouldn't want to fight a bear with one, but bears don't want to fight me either, and a big stick might be enough to remind them of that and even though they don't have very good eyesight, they know what a stick it.
Just saying it might be another reason to carry a hiking staff if you wanted to. It seems quite natural to me. A gun requires training. A can of pepper spray I probably won't have on hand if I ever needed it. A stick I can just pick up and go with it, and I might actually get into the habit of carrying.
LOL, unless you're utterly gifted, it takes many months, more like years before any of this sort of training might pay off in a real fight. It's also just plain silly. Your best defense is what's between your ears. Even buttercups like Bill Bryson and me can hike the AT. Reeelaaaax and take a deep breath.
I agree with this, save the silly part. I recently started taking a self-defense/martial arts class and I think it takes quite a bit of time to learn enough to effectively utilize and feel confident with your particular discipline. One aspect the class I take emphasizes is spacial awareness and being attentive to situations that may present a problem. In other words, learning to recognize and avoid confrontations altogether. Now I will agree that planning to use martial arts on animals is a bit silly. I'm just trying to picture someone attempting to use Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu on a black bear.:D
"they know what a stick it"
That might have been a Freudian slip.
I meant to say they know what a stick is, not where to stick it.
A stick would be my choice against a dog. Running wouldn't be much of an option with a bear if I was with my daughter. I think a long stick again would be the clearest choice, being useful and natural to carry anyway, and not requiring any training. I have to slow down a bit anyway when I hike with my daughter and she likes carrying a stick or two, and so I don't mind carrying one either. So far we just make them as we go, but I got some hardwood and made a couple already, which went to a couple of Margaret's friends. We haven't made our own yet.
I'm just saying if it's only 1 in a 100,000 you will need it, it may as well be fun to carry.
One aspect the class I take emphasizes is spacial awareness and being attentive to situations that may present a problem. In other words, learning to recognize and avoid confrontations altogether.
Bingo. . . .
The saplings I used were maple. I don't think its a hard maple but I don't think it matters.
I am going to try making a couple out of mountain ash for Christmas, as we have a few of those around and I think Rowan might make a very traditional wood for that sort of thing, with magical powers and all that. It is easiest to peel the bark of right away, especially with the Maple, but it can be just as much fun to leave the bark on or scrape it off with our knife or make some designs in it.
I like it my own height, or taller. A bit shorter is lighter but not so well balanced.
If I wanted on really light I think I would use spruce or cedar and cap the bottom.
I'm not sure how strong it should be though, so I think any good wood is a good compromise.
Bingo. . . .
Someone once said carrying a big stick is a good way to avoid confrontations.
I'm not really worried about attacks. It would be interesting to see if a UFC fighter could actually complete a thru hike. They're supposed to be BMF's after all.
so you wanna long-distance wrastle some bears but you're not worried about attacks. why you pickin on those bears?
I think for many people a long hiking staff could be a most natural and
friendly and unobrusive way to avoid confrontations, with man or beast.
Here are some Scouting links...
http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/staff.htm
I find after a while on the trail, my odor drives most people away....
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 16:11
I think I should have posted this under hiking humor. I remember watching "The Great Outdoors" as kid and LMAO when they soft the bear in the butt with the shotgun lamp. RIP John Candy
Slo-go'en
12-06-2008, 16:31
I've often though about building a cattle prod into my hiking poles. Only thing I'm afraid of is accidently pushing the button while I'm standing in a puddle and giving myself a good joult :eek:
I wouldn't want to hit a bear with a stick, that would piss 'em off big time. Same thing with Bubba. Not going to win either of those fights. Just back away slowly saying nice things.
The chances of needing self defense on the trail are so remote, you have a much better chance of winning the power ball, even if you don't buy a ticket. Keeping your wits about you and using common sense is a much better defense.
Homer&Marje
12-06-2008, 16:43
big stick.
Father Dragon
12-06-2008, 17:01
You are far more likely to need self defense training in your own home than on the trail. The best advice for safety is to stay alert to your surroundings and camp away from roads unless you are in a big party.
the ultimate fighting style that makes all others look pedestrian is muay thai
slowandlow
12-06-2008, 17:14
You should study up on the most effective ways to attack a pizza or beer.
My extreme Dragon Power moves are far superior to any of your pathetic self defense tips....
Watch and learn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oqq1ijzQhI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NfkH3Q4JOQ
And this one features self defense wearing balaclavas..very important for winter hiking and knowing the martial arts!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxCMk4fCN1I&feature=related
You should study up on the most effective ways to attack a pizza or beer.
I have serious objections to your use of the word "or."
After a few days you're gonna stink so bad nobody'll mess with you anyway.
After a few days you're gonna stink so bad nobody'll bother you anyway.
oso loco
12-06-2008, 18:31
I think I should have posted this under hiking humor. I remember watching "The Great Outdoors" as kid and LMAO when they soft the bear in the butt with the shotgun lamp. RIP John Candy
Yeah - learning "self defense" now for a 2009 thru is highly improbable - you should have started 5 years ago. :)
However - there ARE things you can learn. I spent a lot of years in different dojos - and the best advice I ever got was that the best self defense is a fast pair of feet - and knowing when to use them. IOW - learn to spot trouble coming, don't ignore your instincts and know when to move on.
JAK's advice ain't bad either - I carry a single hiking pole - it's been useful a LOT of times, particularly for convincing dogs that they don't want to mess with me.
Finally, try reading these:
http://spiriteaglehome.com/THP%20safety1.html
http://spiriteaglehome.com/THP%20safety2.html
I've been told they have some good points.
BTW - there's NO martial art that'll teach you how to fight a bear.
traildust
12-06-2008, 19:40
None.
big stick.That's a good'n. :)
Just carry a nice knife with a decently long blade and learn to stick and move.
Marital arts might help you deal with a bear. Not that I would have any idea.
Marital arts might help you deal with a bear. Not that I would have any idea.
Nah, "marital" arts are for a ticked-off wife. :eek: I'll take my chances with the bear.
Nah, "marital" arts are for a ticked-off wife. :eek: I'll take my chances with the bear.
Of course, my wife says that knowing me, "marital" arts would mean throwing her to the bear while I ran away...:rolleyes:
The true art would be running to the bear, and making her think you were trying to protect her.
The true art would be running to the bear, and making her think you were trying to protect her.
Yup, its called a bear hug ;)
never tried it so not sure how well you will be received.
Tennessee Viking
12-06-2008, 21:40
Kung Fu has its various animal styles. So if you run into a bear, you can say 'is your bear claw better than my tiger crane.'
Judo is close quarters, but you can throw someone or something twice your size.
Find something that you can incorporate hiking poles as weapons.
Find something that you can incorporate hiking poles as weapons.Jeet Kune Do
Blissful
12-06-2008, 22:00
My hiking poles worked well for me.
And good common sense.
Just curious, did this thread actually start out as a serious topic?
Fighting bears and or unruly hikers, come on get serious. I took two years of karate and the only time that I have used any type of martial arts on the trail was trying to open on of those awful freeze dried food packets. I guess could call throwing a stick with a string attached over a branch for my food bag an art, maybe.
Get real.
Just curious, did this thread actually start out as a serious topic?
Fighting bears and or unruly hikers, come on get serious. I took two years of karate and the only time that I have used any type of martial arts on the trail was trying to open on of those awful freeze dried food packets. I guess could call throwing a stick with a string attached over a branch for my food bag an art, maybe.
Get real.Sounds like you answered your own question.
Tennessee Viking
12-06-2008, 22:32
Just curious, did this thread actually start out as a serious topic?
Fighting bears and or unruly hikers, come on get serious. I took two years of karate and the only time that I have used any type of martial arts on the trail was trying to open on of those awful freeze dried food packets. I guess could call throwing a stick with a string attached over a branch for my food bag an art, maybe.
Get real.If you were hiking through the Combat Zone (19E to Dennis Cove) during its roughest time, definitely would come in handy.
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 22:45
Just curious, did this thread actually start out as a serious topic?
Fighting bears and or unruly hikers, come on get serious. I took two years of karate and the only time that I have used any type of martial arts on the trail was trying to open on of those awful freeze dried food packets. I guess could call throwing a stick with a string attached over a branch for my food bag an art, maybe.
Get real.
It was a joke.
I'd never hurt a bear especially if it looked like this.
http://www.insidertricks.com/care-bears/images/bears/Tenderheart_bear_large.gif
It was a joke.
I'd never hurt a bear especially if it looked like this.
Or like this
http://students.usm.maine.edu/patricia.kamp/cp_gdbearose.gif
ATX-Hiker
12-06-2008, 22:57
Or this
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/ea0/f47/ea0f4736-c0aa-44de-aff6-94a908d7acad.large-profile.jpg
Chance09
12-07-2008, 23:38
forget fighting styles, take mace...regular mace, none of that bear mace BS. That way if you have to use it on a bear you can get up close and personal with him and tell him why your spraying him with that horrid stuff.
This might work on bears. Forced hibernation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfABnAS5i9Q&feature=related
taildragger
12-08-2008, 03:14
It was a joke.
I'd never hurt a bear especially if it looked like this.
http://www.insidertricks.com/care-bears/images/bears/Tenderheart_bear_large.gif
I'd run out of my way to tackle the damned thing and impale it with my hiking staff. I'd then slice off that backstrap and put it in with my ramen and sliced cheese.
Seriously, carebears are a dangerous invasive species and should be outrightly killed whenever spotted. Remember, carebears are the #1 child predator in the US, they're more than twice as bad as creepy old people with candy.
Homer&Marje
12-08-2008, 08:40
Just carry a nice knife with a decently long blade and learn to stick and move.
Got one of those too. In case the big stick doesn't work:D And I filed 1/2 inch serrated teeth into the back blade. Usually just works great for firewood, cheese, and slicing through finger tissue and nerves:rolleyes:
OldStormcrow
12-08-2008, 09:38
A martial arts instructer once demonstrated to me the perfect defensive posture.....he turned and ran out of the room as fast as he could. Anything else takes a lot of training. I carry a plain ol' analog (wooden) hiking staff, more to lean my sagging frame against while taking rest stops. I'm never worried about anything 4 legged bothering me....they've got better stuff to do. For the two legged critters, a can of wasp spray works better than the best bear spray.....and doesn't take any fancy training.
sheepdog
12-08-2008, 09:42
This method is the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qiLjaef_jM
For the two legged critters, a can of wasp spray works better than the best bear spray.....and doesn't take any fancy training.
Do you know this from experience? Please elaborate. It is my luck that you are joking and I would actually run into a bear, spray him with the wasp spray, and it would make the bear think I am a willing mate or something equally horrid :(
Basic self defense is good to know but a street fighter can take out any martial arts better to use common sense, if something does not feel right its probably not.
Not true. Kimbo Slice went down pretty quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur4GfOJ9Q7U
Plodderman
12-08-2008, 10:46
Those cute little bears get people in trouble on the trail. Never had any trouble myself.
OldStormcrow
12-08-2008, 11:18
Do you know this from experience? Please elaborate. It is my luck that you are joking and I would actually run into a bear, spray him with the wasp spray, and it would make the bear think I am a willing mate or something equally horrid :(
Actually, law enforcement folks will tell you that wasp spray or yard fogger is one of the best self defense items you can keep in your house. When my next door neighbor and I were teenagers we read this somehwere and decided to try it out. I managed to drop his little brother to his knees from over 20' with one spray. It's a wonder he ever had kids. Seeing as how a bear's sense's are even more sensitive than a human's, I would suspect that they would be thoroughly replelled by the stuff. I still maintain that the 4 legged critters won't bother you.......'cept for the tourist-hungry bears in the Smokies, that is.
forget fighting styles, take mace...regular mace, none of that bear mace BS. That way if you have to use it on a bear you can get up close and personal with him and tell him why your spraying him with that horrid stuff.
Good advice. That way the poor bear won't have to run around, half blinded, to counter attack.
Unless you smear yourself with peanut butter and honey, you'll be lucky to even see a bear.
LMAO! :D on that youtube in post #57, Sheepdog!! Thanks!
Seriously, the knowledge that you can protect yourself in close-quarters improves your confidence, which improves your clear-headedness in an immediate threat situation. Useful on the trail or off. It is worth investing some time in...That said...
I have studied Aikido for years, and have a 2nd degree black belt. I would tell you that if you want some skills in self-defense then study something similar to krav maga, which just means "contact combat." All martial "arts" that you learn at a "school" have a lot invested in their own "style" and it takes years to master them.
Something style-less, but with super-practical approach is best for self-defense.
Youtube krav maga for a sampler.
I would second the Krav Maga. No special techniques involved, but very brutal and effective.
Plodderman
12-08-2008, 14:02
A hiking stick is all I take. Not sure what I would be defending myself from except for maybe a bear. I'll take the stick and take my chances.
taildragger
12-08-2008, 14:17
This method is the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qiLjaef_jM
True, kicking a bear in the junk will distract it long enough for you to get its salmon, however, since there are very few salmon to encounter on the AT, this approach may not be advisable.
Also note, that to create an opening in the bears defenses, which is necessary for an effective kick to the junk, you need to say "Oh, look, an eagle" with a british accent. If you don't, the bear will block your kick, and proceed to maul your junk.
ATX-Hiker
12-08-2008, 14:31
Does anybody know how to tell the difference between a black bear and grizzly bear?
A black bear will climb up the tree and eat you.
A grizzly bear will knock the tree over and eat you.
Or at least I've been told.
:jump
Unless you smear yourself with peanut butter and honey, you'll be lucky to even see a bear.l
i just heard a bear, he told me something... i listened ,and he repeated one more time,but i could not see it from the dust i left behind me:D
You can tell the difference between black bear scat and grizzly bear scat very easily. Black bear scat has lots of berries in it, while grizzly scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper! :) :P
brooklynkayak
12-08-2008, 17:21
ATX - Just travel with someone you can out-run.
This is a dangerous and common myth. Bears, dogs and many other animals feel compelled to chase after a person who runs away.
There have been many cases of vicious attacks when someone decided to run from a bear or obnoxious dog.
During rutting season, male elk have been known to attack and kill running humans.
There was a video on youtube of a small dear that was compelled to chase a dog and kick the crap out of him, when it tried to run away.
sheepdog
12-08-2008, 22:14
Unless you smear yourself with peanut butter and honey, you'll be lucky to even see a bear.
If you hike in GSMNP there are lots of bears to be seen. They are not affraid of people either.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/9/2/0/smokies_bear_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28403&catid=member&orderby=views&direction=DESC&imageuser=14920&cutoffdate=-1)
Saw two bears this day. This one walked up to 25 feet away. I had to yell at it to get it to turn.
If you hike in GSMNP there are lots of bears to be seen. They are not affraid of people either.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/9/2/0/smokies_bear_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28403&catid=member&orderby=views&direction=DESC&imageuser=14920&cutoffdate=-1)
Saw two bears this day. This one walked up to 25 feet away. I had to yell at it to get it to turn.
Consider yourself lucky.
I've hiked through the Smokies several times, and never saw one. I suppose early spring, thru-hiker season isn't the best of times.
I scared a griz by clearing my throat, and clicking my Leki's, in Glacier. How's that for self-defense?
jim gunning
12-09-2008, 03:27
Try a Pat Crawford,hiking staff,fighting stick, expensive but worth every dollar,saved my butt, many times,smacked a large mule deer buck in the Grand Canyon that was trying to steal my lunch,was very agressive ,had a large set of antlers and tried to gore me,after the third smack to the head he split...slipped off a mountain top,jabbed it thru the ice into the snow and adverted a nasty plunge,speared fish with it, tapped agressive dogs , will keep punks at bay. made of aircraft grade aluminum, life time guarentee, Pat is an expert staff and knife maker.. staff defense easy use USMC rifle fighting techniques, slash ,jab, horizonal butt stroke, you can be a good staff defensive fighter in a couple of hours of training. Jimbo 7
Homer&Marje
12-09-2008, 08:34
LMAO! :D on that youtube in post #57, Sheepdog!! Thanks!
Seriously, the knowledge that you can protect yourself in close-quarters improves your confidence, which improves your clear-headedness in an immediate threat situation. Useful on the trail or off. It is worth investing some time in...That said...
I have studied Aikido for years, and have a 2nd degree black belt. I would tell you that if you want some skills in self-defense then study something similar to krav maga, which just means "contact combat." All martial "arts" that you learn at a "school" have a lot invested in their own "style" and it takes years to master them.
Something style-less, but with super-practical approach is best for self-defense.
Youtube krav maga for a sampler.
Thank you. Krav Maga is probably the most effective close combat there is. Not that it would do much against a bear unless you can poke its eye out or possibly take a tear on the jugular. But that's why I have my large, hard wood hiking stick (very light though) and my large fix handled blade.
I don't worry about bears or any other animal until I hang my food. I just want to be able to eat breakfast.
If you hike in GSMNP there are lots of bears to be seen. They are not affraid of people either.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/9/2/0/smokies_bear_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28403&catid=member&orderby=views&direction=DESC&imageuser=14920&cutoffdate=-1)
Saw two bears this day. This one walked up to 25 feet away. I had to yell at it to get it to turn.
I've seen bears in the Smokies on a good 3 dozen occasions. Almost all of them were butt shots as they ran away. However, this is mostly down in the valleys, where the food is. I've only encountered a bear once on the AT.
I HAVE seen some that would linger near Cades Cove, where I suspect some equate people with either food, or those big metal boxes they roll by in.
ATX-Hiker
12-16-2008, 12:15
what if you took a grizzly bear costume, do you think a black bear would be scared by grizzly bear.
yep,i`l stick to my lightsaber ,thank you,remember the TanTan??
Plodderman
12-16-2008, 12:48
Wouldn't run but if necessary they say to fight black bears if attacked. I carry a stick and I have seen many bears but none posed a problem. I always hang my food and eat away form the shelter and am careful on the trail. I suppose the most dangerous time is if you run into a couple of cubs. Then I would just back away slowly.
saimyoji
12-16-2008, 15:47
yep,i`l stick to my lightsaber ,thank you,remember the TanTan??
http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/wp-content/uploads/luke-skywalker-on-tonton.jpg
Skidsteer
12-16-2008, 19:06
Try a Pat Crawford,hiking staff,fighting stick, expensive but worth every dollar,saved my butt, many times,smacked a large mule deer buck in the Grand Canyon that was trying to steal my lunch,was very agressive ,had a large set of antlers and tried to gore me,after the third smack to the head he split...slipped off a mountain top,jabbed it thru the ice into the snow and adverted a nasty plunge,speared fish with it, tapped agressive dogs , will keep punks at bay. made of aircraft grade aluminum, life time guarentee, Pat is an expert staff and knife maker.. staff defense easy use USMC rifle fighting techniques, slash ,jab, horizonal butt stroke, you can be a good staff defensive fighter in a couple of hours of training. Jimbo 7
$259.00 ??? Wow.
Rockhound
12-16-2008, 23:06
martial arts training for the AT? I don't know weather to laugh or sigh. In the time you have, you would only learn enough to get yourself hurt. I think you know this a ridiculous thread. If you choose to learn 1 or more forms of martial arts that's great. It's a great way to increase mental and physical discipline, but what are'nt needed are a bunch of testosterone fueled muscleheads meeting up at shelters looking for any excuse to show off their newly acquired martial arts skills. I know this because I'm a karate man. and karate men bleed on the inside.
$259.00 ??? Wow.
But it comes with a......LANCE!!!!!....and a BLOW GUN!!!!
http://tadgear.com/edged%20tools/crawford_hiking-survival_staff.htm
and for only $10, you can add a camera mount!
As I once told my mom, I am never worry. Rumor has it bears get agida from Italian food. It's the garlic...
(My mom did not appreciate this joke as much....)
Protect yourself from the bears?
You've all got it wrong. Way wrong.
http://bobbyw.org/bearcavalry.jpg
Protect yourself from the bears?
You've all got it wrong. Way wrong.No no no, you have it all wrong as well. All bears want from us is a hit of your weed. I have camped with stoners who hotboxed their tent and hung their food while I have my food bag containing snickers elevating my feet and the bear was all over their tent, not mine. Bears just look scary, but on the inside they are just potheads like most AT hikers. They have the munchies of all the time, that is why they are always after the picanic baskets.
Jim Adams
12-20-2008, 08:53
You might need all of this self protection in case you get "swooped"!
Just don't shake the tree to get it's attention.
LMAO!!!!!!
geek
Usually a Superman punch, followed by a rear naked choke if necessary works for me.