View Full Version : Ran into a weather issue today, suggestions?
SurferNerd
12-07-2008, 19:33
So today was the first AT shakedown hike in preparation for next years NoBo leaving March 1. I've done several hikes and elevation changes, but today was a freezing wake up call. My isobutane cans didn't freeze, but my Camelbak, and my Gu's did. Any ideas how to keep the Camelbak tubes from freezing, or my Sigg's? As soon as I hit high elevation and 20*F my Camebak tubes went crystal, haha, so I need a way to keep it from freezing over. I know for fact that hitting the trail March 1 is going to cause me issues with keeping my fluids from freezing over.
I use bottles in the winter, but if you want to use a bladder blow any water in the drinking tube back into the reservoir after you drink. Also in camp you will need to sleep with your water, if you use bottles turn them upside down, as they seem to freeze at the top first.
saimyoji
12-07-2008, 19:38
empty the tubes...no water=no ice.
1. keep any water you don't want to freeze in your sleeping bag with you
2. take your water bottle, turn it upside down in the snow (the top will not freeze)
3. fill your pot with water, let it freeze overnight. you can melt it right away on your stove.
...and other stuff
handlebar
12-07-2008, 19:40
You can try blowing the water back into the bladder after you've sucked your drink. That works in upper 20s weather; not sure in the low temps. Alternative is to use water bottles and bottle cozies when it's really cold. You can try keeping your stove fuel in a pocket of an inside layer.
saimyoji
12-07-2008, 19:44
butane fuel sucks in freezing temps....MSR fuel tends to do better than say...GigaPower fuel. for winter camping I find white gas is a much better alternative.
saimyoji
12-07-2008, 19:45
butane fuel sucks in freezing temps....MSR fuel tends to do better than say...GigaPower fuel. for winter camping I find white gas is a much better alternative.
and yeah, keep your fuel in your bag too to keep it warm.
SurferNerd
12-07-2008, 19:45
I'll definitely take into account the blowing back into pack idea, I was tempted to wrap all my water gear in my bag liner during the day, and activate one of these: http://www.rei.com/product/608751
At camp, just reset it. Once it warms up, send it home.
Camelbak and others make a insulated sleave and cap for the bladder, but I feel better in bed with bottles than a bladder.
if you have small enough bladders, maybe you could stick them in an inside pocket where your body heat will keep them thawed. (not my idea... the Army's Gortex shell had two stomach-level pockets, accessible along the zipper, for 2-liter canteens. I learned that while stationed at Fort Drum, NY).
SurferNerd
12-07-2008, 21:11
Camelbak and others make a insulated sleave and cap for the bladder, but I feel better in bed with bottles than a bladder.
I don't know if you meant it to be a joke, but it sounded like one, haha. I was thinking, I've seen like an insulated sleeve for the tubes too
taildragger
12-07-2008, 21:23
Could wrap the tubes with something black in order to get some solar energy on them.
In cold weather, I'll use water bottles, maybe keep a small one on me, I also keep my snack foods under my winder layer to keep them warm enough to not shatter teeth.
The camelback will freeze if it stays below 20, it its sucks. I've dealt with one freezing about 2 hrs into a hike when I had to store it outside my pack. Bottles are definitely a plus in the cold.
greentick
12-07-2008, 21:28
Blow the water out of the tube after drinking, get some sort of sleeve for the tube (I've used 1" tubular nylon before), place the bladder as close to your body as possible and route the tube under your shoulder strap.
Or try this...
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=29739&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=7
I haven't used a camelback in a couple of years and just platy collapsible bottles. I was out a few weeks ago and ended up just keeping my water in my pack up against my back (I use a ULA circuit). No probs.
If you use a water filter dont forget it will freeze too and in some models destroy the element.
Due to the "Heat of Fusion" it takes the same amount of energy/fuel to do both of these tasks with equall quantities of water.
Heating 1 degree celsius water to approximately 81 degree celsius(which is close to boiling 100*c)
Heating 0 degree celsius ice to approximately 1 degree celsius
Therefore to save fuel do not let your breakfast/coffee water freeze if at all possible.
Hikerhead
12-07-2008, 23:43
Using a bladder in winter try to remember to blow the water back into the bladder as suggested above. But also poke your tube down into your shirt to keep it warm. But sometime or another you'll forget to do that and you'll find your tube froze. Then you'll need to take your bladder out of your pack and carry it inside under your jacket or fleece. Your pack belt will hold it there. After 30 minutes or so it should be unfrozen and you can put it back into your pack.
freefall
12-08-2008, 00:56
Definitely purge your lines, and/or sleep with your water. Pure water will start to freeze at 32*. Water with impurities like iodine will last until about 30*( a bit lower on high concentrations) but your best bet is to keep you water warm or if the source is close, let the stream keep it and collect it in the morning (still keep it warm if the day temp is below freezing.)
Those aluminum jolt cans are an alternative to plastic if you want something that you can heat to thaw out if they do freeze. I'm working on an idea of carrying two Fosters Beer can mug/pots with a reinforced gripable rim, removable snuggly, and watertight lid. I used to carry a wineskin when I was younger. They are good to carry under a sweater. It would be nice if you could fill them with boiling water, for hot tea or as a hot water bottle and to clean them out. Not sure what kind of plastic might be best.
This video is really cool. I'm not sure what besides goatskin forms the bladder.
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-make-a-wineskin
According to this it could be traditional tree sap or pitch or other resins or it could be latex, or perhaps some modern equivalent. In Spain it is called a bota bag. In Basque country it is a zahato.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bota_bag
I would not use a real one for tea or hot water, just wine or cold water, but hot water might be ok as a hot water bottle and to clean it out. In a pinch I might drink the water after using it as a hot water bottle. Tree sap can't be all that bad for you, but I wouldn't make a regular diet of it. Here is a source for the real deal. It provides instructions on care and use. I think it would be nice to use one with wine on dayhikes but it may not be so practical on long trips. I really enjoyed using one when I was young when cross-country skiing. My older sister got me one for Christmas when I was 14 or so. I used it with just water mostly. I believed she used it for southern comfort and orange juice at high school and college football and hockey games, as was the tradition back then.
http://esflamenco.com/product/en72238175.html
I suppose a plastic bag in a neoprene cover might work just as well or better. :o
buckwheat
12-08-2008, 08:58
Here's a really neat solution:
Go to Home Depot and ask the guy where the pipe insulation is.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100572231&categoryID=531155
This is insulation that you wrap around your hot water pipes in New England to keep the water in them hot. For about $1.64 you can get a 6-foot length and play around with it. Might be too bulky, but for $1.64, can you really go wrong?
Is it really that important to keep sucking on a tube regularly?
Why not just drink big from a bottle or stop and have tea now and then?
From what I understand the stomach won't empty until it is reasonably full anyway.
What am I missing?
Blue Jay
12-08-2008, 09:34
and yeah, keep your fuel in your bag too to keep it warm.
Keeping water or fuel in your sleeping bag is a huge risk. The question you have to ask yourself, what if it leaks. Waking up to a wet sleeping bad in subzero temperatures is dangerous. I'm not saying don't do it, only that there is a risk involved.
Due to the "Heat of Fusion" it takes the same amount of energy/fuel to do both of these tasks with equall quantities of water.
Heating 1 degree celsius water to approximately 81 degree celsius(which is close to boiling 100*c)
Heating 0 degree celsius ice to approximately 1 degree celsius
Therefore to save fuel do not let your breakfast/coffee water freeze if at all possible.
Hadn't considered this, but you are right. Makes better sense to not let it freeze.
Keeping water or fuel in your sleeping bag is a huge risk. The question you have to ask yourself, what if it leaks. Waking up to a wet sleeping bad in subzero temperatures is dangerous. I'm not saying don't do it, only that there is a risk involved.
I agree with this. My solution is to carry bottles in winter, heat my water at night, just before bed. I then place the water bottles upside down in a wool sock and place this inside my boots. These stay in the tent with me. With very few exceptions, come morning, the water is still liquid and the boots are not frozen solid. I usually still put some water into my cooking pot too, just in case, but in light of the first quote above, I will probably just pop that out of the pot in the morning and use liquid water for cooking breakfast.
peakbagger
12-08-2008, 10:20
I am an all season hiker in the Whites, and during freezing conditions there are a lot of "cures" for frozen drinking tubes, but most of them work only some of the time, and the times they dont work, its a significant issue as most bladders dont work well for drinking directly from the bladder.
The local method of keeping the drinks easy to access in the winter is a belt mounted insulated Nalgene water bottle carrier, Outdoor Research makes them as well as other manufacturers. I am not a fan of the OR design, as the foam can absorb moisture versus some of the others(ragged mountain) are insulated with closed cell foam. They are also really nice to fill up with hot water at supper and have a warm/hot drink before bed.
They can also be used to stretch a sleeping bags temp range by storing a hot water bottle in the carrier at the bottom of the sleeping bag to be opened in the middle of the night. Note this is controversial as there is a potential for getting a wet sleeping bag, if your bottle leaks and you need to make sure the bottle is rated for boiling water.
saimyoji
12-08-2008, 11:57
Keeping water or fuel in your sleeping bag is a huge risk. The question you have to ask yourself, what if it leaks. Waking up to a wet sleeping bad in subzero temperatures is dangerous. I'm not saying don't do it, only that there is a risk involved.
Yeah, I wouldn't do it with my whitegas bottle, but I have and would again with the isobutane cannisters which the OP said he uses.
Due to the "Heat of Fusion" it takes the same amount of energy/fuel to do both of these tasks with equall quantities of water.
Heating 1 degree celsius water to approximately 81 degree celsius(which is close to boiling 100*c)
Heating 0 degree celsius ice to approximately 1 degree celsius
Therefore to save fuel do not let your breakfast/coffee water freeze if at all possible.
Yes, well, then. Ignore my bad advice. :o
Here's a really neat solution:
Go to Home Depot and ask the guy where the pipe insulation is.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100572231&categoryID=531155
This is insulation that you wrap around your hot water pipes in New England to keep the water in them hot. For about $1.64 you can get a 6-foot length and play around with it. Might be too bulky, but for $1.64, can you really go wrong?
Up here it is used on the cold pipe to help prevent condensation. Hot left naked.
Several sizes and "grades" are available, if I were to try it, I would use the self adhesive variety.
Go yo your local hardware store buy some insulated covering for water lines cut a piece to fit your camel and there you go, Camel sells one http://www.rei.com/product/631126 but this is easy to do
fiddlehead
12-08-2008, 16:48
To keep the bladders from freezing: leave them at home in a heated house.
I agree with the above poster about putting your water bottles upside down. They rarely freeze all the way solid and ice forms on the top first so..................
Don't forget the hot water bottle trip for those really cold days.
Yesterday i went down to Eckville to watch football with Lazee.
My buddy asked me what the hikers do when it gets that cold. (it was wicked cold yesterday). I told him most go home.
Alligator
12-08-2008, 17:37
Is it really that important to keep sucking on a tube regularly?
Why not just drink big from a bottle or stop and have tea now and then?
From what I understand the stomach won't empty until it is reasonably full anyway.
What am I missing?What does it matter either way? Just stay hydrated. I bring a thermos, drink heat tea on breaks and stay hydrated while hiking by using a hydration bladder.
gonewalkabout
12-31-2008, 14:59
In the early spring I use a platypus. If the hose freezes I disconect it and use a screw top. The water won't freeze in the pack until it gets reeally cold or stays over night. If water is near camp I'd just get more in the morning. Trying to melt a frozen pot of water as someone mentioned is a waste of fuel when there is nearby water.
As with others, I don't think bladders and winter mix together well.
A poor man's bottle insulator is an old wool sock (as Lyle suggested), but wrap a plastic shopping bag around the sock to keep snow/moisture out.
For three season hiking, bottle vs. bladders comes down to personal preference. For winter conditions? Bladder use tends to be low among most people who do things in the winter. Lyle, Peakbagger and I both are in rather cold areas though. The southern Appalachians are less severe in winter..who knows, maybe a bladder will work well there in winter?
If you decide to go with a bladder in winter, the insulation must be used on the tube. I think the results will still be mixed, though.
Good luck!
Johnny Swank
12-31-2008, 16:00
I've quit trying to keep bladders from freezing in the winter. Just carry wide-mouth Dr. Pepper bottles.
*I've also had much better luck with soda bottles vs Large mouth nalgenes WRT frozen threads. It's no big deal to twist open a frosty soda bottle, but woe be the hiker that lets a nalgene freeze. Those threads hold tight when frozen.
Skip the bladder in cold weather or you'll have to carry it between your back and the pack to keep it from freezing.
Use Gatorade or other wide mouth bottles. As a matter of fact, Gatorade and other energy drinks not only provide nice reusable bottles and an energy boost, but anifreeze, too. They have salt in them which you'll need far more of than when you're just hanging around.
Alligator
12-31-2008, 17:32
This is what has worked for me in winter at various places along the AT south of MD. I fashioned an envelope shaped cozy for my bladder and a tube cozy from an old blue foam sleep pad. The bladder goes in the cozy which is then placed inside a kangaroo pocket opposite my back. I run the bladder tube inside it's cozy then just as I would regularly over my shoulder. I usually use three liters of water during the day, so in the morning I boil one liter and dump two more cold liters into the bladder (one part hot to two parts cold). Then I add Polar Pur. After drinking from the hose, I blow air into it. If any ice forms in the tube, the warm water melts it. The bladder cozy is open at the top, I probably could use a clothespin there, but the water stays warm until after lunch at the least. I could also change the ratio for cold days. I find this to be a fairly simple system, and I carry a white gas stove to boil the water.
I don't know if you meant it to be a joke, but it sounded like one, haha. I was thinking, I've seen like an insulated sleeve for the tubes too
No joke, I have one for my platypus. Seems to work.
I use a bladder almost exclusively. I carry it in the pocket designed for it in my Granite Gear Vapor Trail pack. It fits against my back, and it would have to be REALLY cold for the bladder to freeze while in the pack. When I drink from the tube, and it's cold enough for the water to freeze in the tube, I just blow the water back into the bladder after I finish drinking.
If I expect the bladder to freeze overnight, I fill my pot before going to bed.
Granted, my winter hiking has been exclusively in the southeast (altho' I do make an annual trip to Shining Rock - at 6,000 feet - in January or February, when I have hiked with temps never going above freezing).
vtdrifter
01-18-2009, 23:01
i used a camelbak on my thru last year starting march 1st. i managed fine with blowing the water back up the tube - had only minimal freezing. that said, i don't think the daytime temps ever dropped below about 20. i would definitely carry a regular bottle in the first month or so, so you have backup if the camelbak freezes.
buzzamania
01-18-2009, 23:24
put about 2 caps of antifreeze in your water. . . . kidding of course. I'll second the waterbottles in winter thought. We just had the same problems with bladders in northern Florida of all places.
fiddlehead
01-18-2009, 23:30
Been plenty of threads on here and comments from experienced hikers saying to stay away from those bladder type water carriers.
Plastic bottles are best. (if you want to keep your stuff dry anyway)
Bladders freeze, and leak. They are more for bicyclists or joggers.
Lyle (above) has good advice on carrying water when it's extreme cold.
Catalyst
02-04-2009, 11:26
Keeping water or fuel in your sleeping bag is a huge risk. The question you have to ask yourself, what if it leaks. Waking up to a wet sleeping bad in subzero temperatures is dangerous. I'm not saying don't do it, only that there is a risk involved.
never had a nalgene leak on me in my bag.:D
Haven't tried it out yet, but I did get a 27 oz. stainless steel Klean Kanteen water bottle for winter use.
Yea, it weighs 8 ozs. But I can heat it directly on the stove if it gets too cold, or freezes (with the cap off, of course...no need to make a steam bomb!)
I plan to carry extra water (if needed) in my platy inside my pack, and refill the bottle as necessary.
Also, I can use the bottle as a mug for coffee and tea, and as a hot water bottle. No need to heat water in a pot and transfer to a bottle, which is always a hassle, and moreso in the winter.
With freezer bag cooking, no reason to carry a pot for cooking!
(We'll see if this works in the real world.)
Any type of powdered mix in with your water will help keep it from freezing. Gatorade is pretty easy to find, crystal lite comes in single serving packets, etc.
skinewmexico
02-04-2009, 12:26
Plus whatever the number is on not using a bladder and tube. Unless you're in an adventure race, is it really that bad to stop and take a drink? How did we become a nation that thinks to stay hydrated you have to drink every 5 minutes any way?
daddytwosticks
02-04-2009, 16:39
This is so true...as a youth I played sports and all sorts of games for hours without any breaks to "hydrate". How DID I suurvive?
thruhiker101
02-16-2009, 02:33
i have put my water bladder in the space between my pack vertical pads (i have a jansport klamath 72) the pads are made to create a space for your back to breath... but... i rather have warm water in the winter(saving energy) and a slightly sweaty back; then a cool back and frozen water...
just my 2 cents
i went solo kayakamping on the delaware river last winter from just north of high point to the water gap ranger station (it was frozen 5-6ft thick past that point) and learned a valuable lesson for forgetting my pot (the metal one)(never the other) i had to melt all my water in poland spring bottles, talk about time consumming!!! (dangle just outta reach of the flames, and try to keep it moving)... every drop was such a reward
the exception to all my bottled water freezing was my black camelpack, while exposed to the sun it was my only water source to not freeze in 5 days of kayaking... also doubles as my pillow, oh so comfy
also if there is unfrozen running water or for that matter burried in the snow, will help thaw frozen water or keep from freezing... running water works better
hope this helps
My military hydration system (made by Camelback) is in an insulated black sheath--as is the drinking tube. That little bit of insulation provides SOME additional protection in cold weather. Here is a picture:
http://www.camelbak.com/index.cfm
People have given you some good ideas so far. Just be VERY careful to not rupture/burst the hydration system bladder if you put it in your sleeping bag with you (by accidentally rolling onto it) or by blowing too much air into it or by accidentally bursting it if you put it in your jacket to keep it warm. I have seen many hydration bladders develop a leak when subjected to too much (water or air) pressure.
I have seen some people put warm (not hot) liquid into the insulated hydration bladder system to keep it from freezing. It seemed to work for those people. Other people say this method is not advised. So take your chances.
I just checked out the link I provided above. Unfortunately, it automatically takes you back to the CamelBak homepage. So, from the homepage, click on "Military" Then click "Hydration Packs". My military hydration system is the 2 liter "ThermoBak". Perhaps a bit heavy for the "gram weenies--but it is insulated--and has an insuated drinking tube.