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Robbie
12-08-2008, 20:51
I have been training for an AT thru hike for 1.5 years. I had planned to head out for an AT thru hike attempt in March 2009. Recently, my right knee has flared up and an upcoming MRI may indicate the need for arthoscopic (spelling?) surgery. I am quite devastated.. I have worked so hard, lost weight, bought equipment, etc. I have all my gear and I see my thru hike attempt slipping away. I realize that at my age (61) odds are against me but I at least wanted to give it a"one for the gipper..." try!!!

Has anyone has arthoscopic and if so, what has been the recovery time? Any input would be appreciated. Thanx...longpants:confused:

taildragger
12-08-2008, 20:55
Recovery can vary. Some heal fast, some take forever.

If you can get back into it, I'd suggest poles to help alleviate stresses. Also, may look into hiking the PCT since it has an easier grade, might be easier on the knees (and eyes)

sticks&stones
12-08-2008, 21:08
That's rough, but I can somewhat relate. The bottom half of one of my femur balls broke off previous to my 96 sobo. My whole hike was 3 weeks pain free, then 3 weeks painful for 8 months. The same went for my 2nd, and 3rd. What saved me,( but may or may not help you, i have no clue), was custom insoles. After i put them in i hiked several more 8 month hikes with no tweaking whatsoever. I even hiked in sandals for several 1000mls. I sure hope you find a remedy.

skinewmexico
12-08-2008, 21:44
Depends on what they do. I had the underside of kneecap cleaned out, and a ligament checked that was supposed to be torn. I was amazed at how little it hurt, I think I took pain pills for 1 day. Now the therapy hurts, but if you do it, and really work, you'll be surprised at how fast you recover.

Serial 07
12-08-2008, 21:48
go get you some arnica from your local health food store...the higher the dose, the better...200ck i think is the highest that's easily found...start taking that now, before the surgery and after...it will help the body heal and recover from the surgery faster...don't believe me, do some research online...but arnica pre-op and post-op is a great supplement...follow the directions, ie take it away from food...if you are unfamiliar with this and are interested, PM me and i can give you more details...

dmax
12-08-2008, 22:02
I had this done a few years ago. It took ME quite a while to heal 100%. Almost a full year for 100%. I was walking a couple miles a day after 1 week, with no loaded pack. Be sure to go through with "all" of the pt.
I've seen football players get back on the field in a couple of weeks. We could use some of those drs. on the AT.

xnav
12-08-2008, 22:18
I tore one of my ACLs in half on my right knee playing basketball a couple of years ago. I had the surgery your doctor is reccomending and had it replaced with a cadaver ligament. Recovery hurt like hell for the first month (physical therapy 2 to 3 times a week) , but it became easier and I started back to work in about 2 1/2 months after the surgery. I'm a survey party chief which involves a lot of walking and carrying equipment every day. My right leg is now as strong as it ever was and rarely bothers me at all. Just make sure to get a good doctor who has done a lot of the procedures.

Keystone28
12-08-2008, 23:14
Ive had orthoscopic surgery on my shoulder before for a torn rotator cuff. Granted, not the same thing, but it took me roughly 4 months to get back full range of motion, and even today -7 months later- it still hurts like a bugger if I overdue it.

The big thing is to stick to your therapy!! Do everything the therapist tells you to do, no matter how uncomfortable it is, because they really do know what they're doing.

Secondly, and maybe I'll get hell for saying this, but whats more important to you? The thru hike, or your health? Put the hike on a back burner I say, and focus on getting yourself better before you try some monumental feat of endurance and end up with an even more messed up knee than you have now.

oso loco
12-08-2008, 23:36
Robbie - I got scoped on Labor Day weekend 2005. Walked a mile the next weekend and got royally chewed out by the therapist. Took 6 weeks to get anywhere close to normal. Then several months to get into backpacking. Started the CDT mid-April 2006 - almost 8 months after the scope. It can be done.

That said - some advice that's worth exactly what you're willing to pay for it.

1. You're really REALLY short on time if you're gonna do an AT thruhike. There's a LARGE difference between the southern AT and the southern CDT. New Mexico is a piece of cake compared to Georgia and North Carolina. Personal opinion is that if it were me, I might go to the PCT - but not the AT.

2. You're not me. What you do - and how soon - is your decision. But if I were you I'd consult your surgeon and physical therapist, too. How soon you can successfully pick up a pack depends a LOT on how good you are with the PT.

3. Glucosamine - plus MSM. Don't skimp and don't skip - as soon as the Doc says you can - and ALL the time on the trail.

4. Finally - how good are you at personal honesty - with respect to assessing your own physical capability? I can't even guess at that, but most of us fool ourselves when we're after something we WANT. Only YOU can make the decision about whether you're actually ready when it comes time to leave for the trail. If you're not ready, then it's better to wait a year than to go out there and blow it.

5. Whatever your decision, I'll wish you the best.

For what it's worth, when I finished the CDT I was 66. I did the GDT at 67 and 3 weeks ago I had a knee replacement (on the other side). I'm planning another long hike - hopefully in 2009, although that's still TBD.

In other words, the game ain't over till the fat lady sings - and I don't hear the music yet. How's YOUR attitude?

Reid
12-09-2008, 00:40
Gloucosamine Chondriton

camojack
12-09-2008, 01:29
I have been training for an AT thru hike for 1.5 years. I had planned to head out for an AT thru hike attempt in March 2009. Recently, my right knee has flared up and an upcoming MRI may indicate the need for arthoscopic (spelling?) surgery. I am quite devastated.. I have worked so hard, lost weight, bought equipment, etc. I have all my gear and I see my thru hike attempt slipping away. I realize that at my age (61) odds are against me but I at least wanted to give it a"one for the gipper..." try!!!

Has anyone has arthoscopic and if so, what has been the recovery time? Any input would be appreciated. Thanx...longpants:confused:
Not to rain on your parade, but if you get the surgery, forget March 2009.

I had the ACL in my left knee replaced in 2006, and although it's better now than it had been since 1984, it took a year to get there.

You might want to wait until 2010 for the thru; I will say that after going through it though, I'm quite pleased with the result...

weary
12-09-2008, 02:08
I have been training for an AT thru hike for 1.5 years. I had planned to head out for an AT thru hike attempt in March 2009. Recently, my right knee has flared up and an upcoming MRI may indicate the need for arthoscopic (spelling?) surgery. I am quite devastated.. I have worked so hard, lost weight, bought equipment, etc. I have all my gear and I see my thru hike attempt slipping away. I realize that at my age (61) odds are against me but I at least wanted to give it a"one for the gipper..." try!!!

Has anyone has arthoscopic and if so, what has been the recovery time? Any input would be appreciated. Thanx...longpants:confused:
I haven't. My wife has. I've read the literature. In most cases, it seems from all I've read, such surgery is no big deal. My wife, 100 pounds overweight, has never had another problem with that knee.

So a second surgery when the other knee flared up. The surgery did nothing.
two years later, it remains a problem.

When I proposed a through hike in 1993, I was told by my then doctor, "it was the best thing you could do." When I worried about my knee, the doc said, "it'll get better as you use it." Well it did.

My advice is to forget about a "thru hike." Just go to Springer, start hiking north, at whatever pace seems comfortable. Forget about Katahdin. Just enjoy each day. After six months or so, you may find yourself on Katahdin. I did. And I was a year or so older than you.

I graduated high school in 1946. Three years earlier as a sophomore, I ranked third from the bottom of an 800 student body in physical fitness. Such tests were common during the second world war. They dreamed of getting us fit enough to fight. I finally graduated towards the top of the bottom third in physical ability -- and in academics for that matter.

I've never exercised regularly. But over the years to gain fitness, I would walk a mile at lunch hour at my sedentary job. Use the stairs, not the elevator, to the fourth floor lunch room. And probably once a month or so, on average, do a wilderness weekend on the trail or on a wild river.

It was all great fun, and produced a few newspaper stories that many readrers seemed to like. Decades later, now approaching 80, people say, "aren't you lucky to have retained your health. Well I could tell them stories. But I don't.

I look at them, and think, "you don't want to know about all my physical worries. But very few of you really could compete with me on a trail, or a river in a canoe."

We are only given one life on this earth. Protect it and use it, Robbie. And when you get back from Katahdin let us know how it went and what you hope to do next.

Weary www.matlt.org

Quoddy
12-09-2008, 09:31
Has anyone has arthoscopic and if so, what has been the recovery time? Any input would be appreciated. Thanx...longpants:confused:
I had arthroscopic surgery on a shredded miniscus in my left knee when I was 57. I decided not to take any pain medication except for Motrin and was walking (limping around) the day after the surgery with no crutches. I had the surgery on a Friday afternoon and was back at work on Monday. The pain before the surgery was so intense that the little I had briefly afterward felt like nothing. Now, almost 12 years later, the knee remains completely OK. Having said all that, I know people who had problems afterward. I really believe that slight differences in the basic problem as well as the skill of the surgeon have a lot to do with the outcome. I had a top notch sports medicine orthopedic surgeon, hand picked by my wife who worked many, many years in a large medical center.

Don't give up on your plans. You may be stronger than ever.

mudhead
12-09-2008, 09:48
Fingers crossed for you that it is a minor issue.

Might be a PT only thing or an angry bursa.

Plodderman
12-09-2008, 09:50
Shouldn't take to long to heal if they scope it. If it is just the cushion (meniscus) and arthritis then you will be up and moving in a few weeks. It can take a few months to get your strength back but most of the doctors want you on it right away and physical therapy is usually for a few months. If it is any ligament damage then that would be different. I have had my knee scoped twice and the recovery time was not more than a few months.

skinewmexico
12-09-2008, 09:54
I'm not seeing where the OP said it was an ACL.

Gray Blazer
12-09-2008, 10:51
Hopefully your surgery is minor. I had ACL replacement and it took a year and a half for it to fully recover. I tried hiking 6 months after, and the ups and downs really hurt my knee, but, after a year and a half the new knee is better than the old one. The ups and downs of the AT are the thing that's going to test you. You may be able to walk 25 miles on a level trail, but, the mountains are the true test for your knee.

beeman
12-09-2008, 11:15
I had my knee scoped for a torn meniscus and smooting of the underside of my kneecap when I was 50. The doctor told me NFL players were up and practicing the next day after their surgery. I was up and teaching woodworking to cubscouts in my shop within a couple of days. It was tender but OK as long as I didn't over extend the knee joint. When that happened, it hurt like the devil. I did all the recovery physical therapy religiously and my experience with that was the first 75% of my flexibility/mobility was easy. The last 5% of the flexibility is the hardest to get back. Four months later I was hiking on the AT. I quit that year after 340 miles but it had nothing to do with the knee surgery. I will say that both of my knees hurt on the ups a little and the downs a lot, but the scoped knee hurt less than the other knee. The pain that originally caused the doctor's visit never returned and it has been almost four years now. You hike isn't over.

All that being said, I don't know your exact medical circumstances. IF your circumstances are similar to mine, and the surgical team does a good job, and you do your PT religiously, you will be able to make that hike. You may just have to modify your dates a bit. Good Luck!

the goat
12-09-2008, 12:20
Gloucosamine Chondriton

placebo.

weary
12-09-2008, 12:23
I have been training for an AT thru hike for 1.5 years. I had planned to head out for an AT thru hike attempt in March 2009. Recently, my right knee has flared up and an upcoming MRI may indicate the need for arthoscopic (spelling?) surgery. I am quite devastated.. I have worked so hard, lost weight, bought equipment, etc. I have all my gear and I see my thru hike attempt slipping away. I realize that at my age (61) odds are against me but I at least wanted to give it a"one for the gipper..." try!!!

Has anyone has arthoscopic and if so, what has been the recovery time? Any input would be appreciated. Thanx...longpants:confused:
There's an interesting piece in the New York Times today, elaborating on an article published in one of the leading medical journals.

Essentially, it said 40 percent of the people who have an MRI are shown to have torn meniscal stuff in their knees. But that there is little evidence that surgery should be routine as a result, since the pain comes and goes regardless of whether one has surgery or not.

Arthritis usually is the cause of the tear, according to the medical people interviewed. Anyway, after reading the piece, I'd think twice about having knee surgery.

BTW, my wife has had the surgery on both knees. One is back to normal. The other knee surgery made things worse for months. But gradually the pain has lessened so that it is no longer a problem. Anyway, open the article. It may give you some insights.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/health/09scan.html?_r=1&ref=science

Weary

johnnybgood
12-09-2008, 20:42
I work in an operating room and have the same nagging knee issues that you describe ,swelling with associated joint pain after over doing it either at the gym or at work and I also have had an MRI plus two cortizone shots in that knee.I talk with my orthopedic doc three times a week and while he'll insist I NEED to my knee scoped I am the only one that will make that decision.I can tell you that an anti-inflammatory twice a day helps my knee when it becomes a real pain (pun intended)

asm109
12-10-2008, 01:18
I had my right knee scoped back in early June. They had to clean out a bunch of shredded meniscus. I was walking on it the next day. I was back at work in 3 days. I began physical therapy that first week. I had quite a bit of swelling when ever I spent too much time on my feet. This passed after about 2 months. By the end of August my knee was feeling almost normal and I was going on 3-5 mile hikes. By the end of September it felt as good as the other knee.
The surgeon told me I would be "back at full speed" in 6 weeks. After 6 weeks I could handle my desk job but not hiking. 12 weeks was more like it.

camojack
12-10-2008, 01:23
placebo.
I've heard of people giving it to their pets, with good results.

I don't think said pets are susceptible to the "placebo effect". :-?

Just sayin'...

WILLIAM HAYES
12-10-2008, 02:11
I just retired from the staff of a large Medical Center and my advice is make sure you have the surgery performed by a good sports medicine guy-not every ortho guy likes to do knees which is a common sports injury-they generally like hips because there is more money doing hip replacements. so get an ortho guy who has specialized in sports med-and do your rehab . Remember age is only a number don't talk yourself out of a dream because you have had knee surgery- after rehab you can handle the trail
HILLBILLY

Serial 07
12-10-2008, 02:27
placebo.

everything in life is a "placebo"...the mind control is always in control of the body...

maybeFritz
12-10-2008, 13:43
I'll jump in on this one-had my knee scoped a few months back to clean out the joint (4 previous non-scope knee surgeries resulting from a broken kneecap leaves some unhappy tissue)-

Crutches for a week full time, then for a while longer when i had to move more than a few feet.

I will echo the vast importance of PT-it is pretty unplesant, and hurts to do, but works, and will keep the atrophy to a minimum-particularily if the therapist knows what your goal is, and can shape the therapy to match.

Fast forward to now-knee isn't in perfect shape, and sometimes gives me problems, but is overall pretty strong. If I were looking at the trail (and how I wish I were looking at the trail), I would definetly go, just assume shorter days and be ready to do really short or zeros if it started acting up.

Good luck

Sleeps_With_Skunks
12-10-2008, 17:24
placebo.

Well, as a chemist I tested that theory. My doc took an MRI of my back after my car accident. 3 squashed discs in my neck, 5 squashed dics in my lower back with one disc having a pinhole tear in it. I did the normal thing for 2 months...PT, chiropractor, demerol...slight healing, still numbness in one leg. Then I added 1500 mg of Glucosamine twice a day and my regular routine for 2 months and was amazed when they took new scans and the pain in my back and legs was gone. Stopped taking the glucosamine and my neck and back got very stiff again as the drug came out of my system. Glucosamine does work, but it is not a cure all. And yes, I chose a chiropractor over having surgery and getting my spine fused and discs replaced.

I also am giving my 18 year old cat glucosomine. When she decides to munch the tablet she can jump and walk around easier. When she decides she is not going to eat the tablet she has to have a hand up to get into chairs. Try and explain placebo to her. :D

As for this topic. I had my right knee scoped when I was 11. I had a severe form of Asgood-schlaters disease and excessive calcification under my knee cap that was scraped off. I also had a piece of muscle repaired so my knee would track (bend). I have arthritis in both knees and it is slowly spreading to other joints as I get older.
It took 3 months of PT to be able to walk after the surgery and to this day I still can't do squats. I also took up volksmarching as part of my theraphy....I walked a lot in Germany.

Now my trekking poles are a GODSEND!!!! But my doctors over the years all say the same thing. The recovery is up to you and how you want to recover. At 11, I was just happy to be able to walk and ride a bike without my knee going bonkers. NOw, if I had to do it over again....I would be happier if I could bend down to pick things off the floor at the knees without getting "stuck".

SawnieRobertson
12-10-2008, 18:52
I had arthroscopic surgery on a shredded miniscus in my left knee when I was 57. I decided not to take any pain medication except for Motrin and was walking (limping around) the day after the surgery with no crutches. I had the surgery on a Friday afternoon and was back at work on Monday. The pain before the surgery was so intense that the little I had briefly afterward felt like nothing. Now, almost 12 years later, the knee remains completely OK. Having said all that, I know people who had problems afterward. I really believe that slight differences in the basic problem as well as the skill of the surgeon have a lot to do with the outcome. I had a top notch sports medicine orthopedic surgeon, hand picked by my wife who worked many, many years in a large medical center.

Don't give up on your plans. You may be stronger than ever.

Ditto about the doc. Look for a board certified orthopaedic physician who specializes in sports medicine and who has served as an olympics doc in that field. Nothing less.

My arthroscopic surgery is scheduled for late January, 2009, much later than I would prefer but that's what fell into place. In the meantime I am working out in the pool at our Wellness Center, doing all the leg therapy exercises that I can with the aid of my flippers, a lapboard, and those long wiggly things. I had to give up land workouts because they just made it worse. The water resistance is probably doing a better job of making sure that the knee (which has taken on a personality of its own and is now dubbed Ariel) has well-developed circulation as though it were out there running and doesn't lose muscle strength while having to sit and wait.

I'm also using arnica gel and ketoprophin 75 mg (prescribed by my primary care physician) and chron-glu-msm 3 X daily.

I'm also trying to lose weight, figuring that every ound removed will make for a better result.

This summer I will do shorter AT backpacks, in some cases, making up skipped miles in 1999.

And I'm a-thinking that 2010 is going to be a banner year for those of us who
are older.

Robbie
12-10-2008, 19:33
Thanks. Interesting: I also had Osgood-Schlatters in HS. I can't squat to this day but I could walk and run. Thanks again...

Rockhound
12-10-2008, 19:56
I had total knee reconstruction after a motorcycle wreck. That was over 20 years ago. Sure it may act up a little from time to time and is always sure to start aching at about the 10 or 12 mile mark each day. The important thing is to listen to your body. Knee surgery does not mean your hiking days are gone.

mudhead
12-11-2008, 07:41
Ditto about the doc. Look for a board certified orthopaedic physician who specializes in sports medicine and who has served as an olympics doc in that field. Nothing less.





Olympics doc as in worked on olympic team members?

Blue Jay
12-11-2008, 11:24
My advice is to forget about a "thru hike." Just go to Springer, start hiking north, at whatever pace seems comfortable. Forget about Katahdin. Just enjoy each day. After six months or so, you may find yourself on Katahdin. I did. And I was a year or so older than you.
www.matlt.org

There is a bunch of good advise on this thread, but I believe this is the best. Get your pack as light as you can. Walk only a few miles, then rest for a few hours, then walk another few miles. DO NOT take pain killers or poles or anything else that will mask pain. If there is a problem you need to feel it and stop. As Weary said just enjoy the day. We evolved to walk, there is no better way to heal.

Grampie
12-11-2008, 11:59
Started my first thru attempt in 2000 at the age of 65. Got to Fontana Dam and could go no further because of knee problems. I went home and saw a doc. Had me go for an MRI. He said my pain was from overuse along with some arthiritis. I have a daughter who is a physical therapest and she prescribed an excercise program to strenthen the muscles that support the knees. I also started to take glucosomine and condroitian. The following spring I started again. I wore a neoprene knee brace on the worse knee and used trecking poles. This time I made it to Katahdin with no knee problems.:)

weary
12-11-2008, 12:32
A riddle.

Question: What do you call the guy who finished last in medical school.

Answer: Doctor.

A year ago about now I had agonizing pain in my right shoulder. The surgeon who had operated on my wife's knees (one successfully, the second not) offered to look at my shoulder. His conclusion, I had a torn rotator cuff and needed surgery.

I procastinated until I had a chance to talk to my primary doctor, and because recovery from the surgery typically takes six months. My primary doctor suggested I swing a gallon milk jug filled with water a few minutes a day. By spring the pain disappeared completely. It came back a few months ago as an occasional slight twinge. I plan to again swing a milk jug full of water as soon as I get around to it.

Weary

coss
12-11-2008, 23:58
I'm an MD, a hiker, and I've had an ACL reconstruction. The best advice given so far is to go to a Sports Medicine Orthopedic Surgeon. If you know some doctors, ask them to identify the doc to whom they would send a family member. At present, you do not have a diagnosis. An MRI would be a good start. Once you have a diagnosis, you'll be given a list of options. Tell the doc what your AT plans are. Ask for honest advice about whether or not a hike is realistic. Comply with all rehab directives faithfully.

As for hiking with a gimpy knee, hiking poles are often helpful, as is a light pack, a low body weight, and low expectations for daily mileage, at least in the beginning. Some of the flip-flop schedules begin on flatter ground than GA and the Carolinas, and might work for a rehab start.

If you can't start in March or April, it is no crime to start a couple of months later and to hike half the trail this year and the rest in 2010.

Robbie
12-17-2008, 21:30
Thanks all for your thoughts, ideas, and inspiration. I had an MRI and it was inconclusive. I have decided to RICE (rest, ice, compression, and elevation) It is getting better and arthoscopy is not on the horizon. I am still hopeful for an attempt in the spring. I appreciate all the emails and input, and I hope to see you on the trail beginning March 10, 2009. Robbie (aka "longpants...")

skinewmexico
12-17-2008, 21:53
Don't have to have surgery to rehab. Keep up the rice, and find a good physical therapist.

weary
12-18-2008, 01:14
Thanks all for your thoughts, ideas, and inspiration. I had an MRI and it was inconclusive. I have decided to RICE (rest, ice, compression, and elevation) It is getting better and arthoscopy is not on the horizon. I am still hopeful for an attempt in the spring. I appreciate all the emails and input, and I hope to see you on the trail beginning March 10, 2009. Robbie (aka "longpants...")
Start slow. Don't try to keep up with the kids. My doctor said my knees would get stronger as I walked, if I listened to what my knees were telling me. It was among the best medical advice I've ever had.

Walk as long as it is comfortable, even if it's only 4 or 5 miles a day at first. I don'r believe in heavy doses of painkillers, at least not in the beginning. No training equals day after day, walking up hill and down, week in and week out. Train all you can, but the primary training is the trail itself. Let your body set the pace -- at least until you are well north of Springer. I didn't push hard until I reached Harpers Ferry. By then I was determined to reach Katahdin, the hell with my knees.

But by then they were well strengthened and didn't cause any significant problem all the way to Katahdin, or in the 17 years since.

Weary

mudhead
12-18-2008, 08:35
Thanks all for your thoughts, ideas, and inspiration. I had an MRI and it was inconclusive. I have decided to RICE (rest, ice, compression, and elevation) It is getting better and arthoscopy is not on the horizon. I am still hopeful for an attempt in the spring. I appreciate all the emails and input, and I hope to see you on the trail beginning March 10, 2009. Robbie (aka "longpants...")

Good on you. Heal well.

Marta
12-18-2008, 08:45
My knees are crap, too. Ditto to what several other people have said:

Lose as much pack weight and body weight as you can.

Do PT beforehand.

Use trekking poles.

Keep your mileage BELOW your comfort threshold for a couple of months.

Glucosamine might help, so give it a try.

Don't worry about reaching Katahdin; focus on having a good day today.

Good luck!

Blissful
12-18-2008, 14:55
If you can't start in March or April, it is no crime to start a couple of months later and to hike half the trail this year and the rest in 2010.

Good advice. You must let yourself heal competely.

Doing sections is a great way to do the AT and even better as you can take your time and enjoy it more.