Cheap SOBs? [Archive]

TJ aka Teej

04-09-2004, 09:41

clyde

04-09-2004, 09:44

Sing it, Grimace!! I concur.

weary

04-09-2004, 09:54

I certianly don't think it is appropriate to tell other people that they need to support a charity. I just think that many people who spend a lot of time on the AT feel they should give something back. The ATC is a great organization, and supporting it is one way of giving back.

I have no qualms about urging those who use a facility created by volunteers to support the organization that organized and recruited and supports those volunteers.

Those who don't join, and thus contribute their support, either are extremely poor, have not bothered to understand how the trail they profess to love came to be and continues to be, or probably are just cheap SOBs.

Weary

Blue Jay

04-09-2004, 10:01

In my experience this isn't the general feeling of the hiking community.

All thru hikers are NOT ATC members...I thru hiked and am not a member.

Blue Jay is entitled to his opinion. I may be cheap, but my mother is a very nice person.

If you remember, we did the Notch together on your thru. Actually I was trying to be restrained. I'm a cheap SOB (it takes one to know one) and I have been a member since '98' so the term might be just plain User. But you may be correct, the general hiking community might just be a bunch of Users.

Jaybird

04-09-2004, 10:16

If you remember, we did the Notch together on your thru. Actually I was trying to be restrained. I'm a cheap SOB (it takes one to know one) and I have been a member since '98' so the term might be just plain User. But you may be correct, the general hiking community might just be a bunch of Users.

i'm a fairly new member of ATC (member since 2000)...
i believe you have to be a bit "frugal" when it comes to money (unless your last name is FORBES, or Vanderbilt or you just won POWERBALL)

i also believe that you support charities & organizations that you beleive in, their cause & their actions.

thats why i am an ATC member.

i dont think you HAVE TO be a member, nor do i think an ATC member HAS TO BE A THRU-HIKER. (or section hiker, or day hiker or ......) :D

BlueJay...am I gonna have to seperate you from the other hikers again?
hehehehehehehe :D

Lone Wolf

04-09-2004, 10:16

I have never been an ATC member. I was a GMC member once. I am currently a NRA member.

The Old Fhart

04-09-2004, 10:21

I had met this person on his thru hike and have seen his posts here on Whiteblaze. The rather harsh criticism he received from some others was totally uncalled for. If you read his posts he gives useful and well thought out advice to anyone needing help. He is giving back to the trail community in a manner of his choosing that he is comfortable with right now and we should thank him for that. Not everyone is going to join ATC, AMC, LT, MATC, etc., or do trail work when they finish the trail. Check his post and you will see his posts are all positive and constructive. Check the post from the others and draw your own conclusion.

Blue Jay

04-09-2004, 10:22

In another thread, "ATTN Newsletter Update," in post #13, Blue Jay stated that any "thru hiker who is not a member of the ATC is a cheap SOB."

I'm wondering...

Is this the general feeling of the hiking community?

Are all thru hikers members of the ATC?

Is Blue Jay correct in calling thru hikers who are not members "cheap SOBs?"

I hereby apologize to all cheap thruhikers for the SOB statement. It was a very poor and incorrect use of the English language and in no way expressed my opinion. Please replace the phrase "SOB" with the word "User" I have always supported Dirt Baggers and others of us who eat out of dumpsters, but even most of those support the ATC. For a college boy to refuse made me angry, I am sorry.

Lugnut

04-09-2004, 10:32

There are numerous ways to "give back" to the trail besides being a member of the ATC. I've met several maintainers who look at the trail near them as a personal responsibility and go way beyond the minimum to provide something they and their local club can be proud of. I think this may be at least as important, if not moreso, than what the ATC offers as an overseer organization.
According to the new ATN the Board of Managers, which was a group made up of represenatives all along the length of the trail is now going to be abandoned in favor of a "professional" group. It seems to me that this action, along with many others, shows that the ATC is losing touch with the mission and becoming just another bureaucracy; creating animosity with trail neighbors, endless fundraising, etc.
So, to me, not being a member of the ATC doesn't make you an SOB or User. There are many ways to contribute.
P S... I am a life member of the ATC so I'm allowed to complain. :D

jersey joe

04-09-2004, 10:35

Blue Jay,
I certainly remember you from the Notch in 02'. Thanks again for helping me through what I consider the toughest/most dangerous mile on the AT. The notch was one section of the trail I'm happy I didn't have to hike alone. I also recall that evening, you talked the ranger at Speck Pond Shelter out of charging us the 8 dollar AMC fee since the shelter was dirty and soaking wet inside, which I find slightly ironic considering the topic of this post. But thanks for that as well! :)

My post to Chappy was not to put down ATC membership but rather to point out that the hiking community in general isn't judgmental of people who aren't members. I am all for giving back, and while I do volunteer to do trail work in NJ already, I think I will now also join the ATC...TJ, thanks for the info.

Bill Harris

04-09-2004, 11:22

In my own opinion, Blue Jay is right.Forget about the SOB part, because he has apologized for what he said.I feel if I'm out hiking any trail,I should be willing to give back to that trail.I'm not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination,but I'm a member in both the ATC and PCT organizations.Why??
Because I use the trails and love hiking,like the rest of us.I would hate to see the day come,when these groups no longer existed.Membership fees are a way for us to support all aspects of these groups and the work they do.
No,I'm not saying you have to become a member to hike the AT,but where else can you USE something for one day to six months and, not pay a cent. :-?

Blue Jay

04-09-2004, 13:48

Blue Jay,
I certainly remember you from the Notch in 02'. Thanks again for helping me through what I consider the toughest/most dangerous mile on the AT. The notch was one section of the trail I'm happy I didn't have to hike alone. I also recall that evening, you talked the ranger at Speck Pond Shelter out of charging us the 8 dollar AMC fee since the shelter was dirty and soaking wet inside, which I find slightly ironic considering the topic of this post. But thanks for that as well! :)

Sure I helped you, you're half my age and made it up the arm in minutes while it took me hours. It wasn't a ranger but the summer help and as you said it was the AMC not the ATC. One very bad, one very good. I need to give more money to Whiteblaze, myself to avoid hypocrite status. Maybe, just maybe this thread will cause something good to happen, now that would be ironic.

foodbag

04-09-2004, 13:50

I'm glad that this discussion got started. I have been meaning to get my membership in so thanks for the extra push; it's a done deal. You know how it is, good intentions....
;)

Blue Jay

04-09-2004, 13:55

Speaking of ironic, remember all the grief certain Old Gass Passers gave to Warren for sneaking around a single corporate barrier. Now someone hikes the whole trail for free and not only do they think it's OK, they attack those who object. I can hardly wait for the convoluted logic to justify that.

jersey joe

04-09-2004, 14:34

Sure I helped you, you're half my age and made it up the arm in minutes while it took me hours. It wasn't a ranger but the summer help and as you said it was the AMC not the ATC. One very bad, one very good.
I was referring to psychological help. It was nice knowing that if I fell in one of those cracks, someone would be able to pull me out!

Besides the fact that the AMC charges thru hikers for shelter use what makes the organization so bad? Not arguing, just uneducated on the matter.

Streamweaver

04-09-2004, 15:00

You know you might have better luck convincing people to "give something back to the trail" if you would dispense with the petty name calling and the Im better than you because I belong to such and such club and do such and such for the trail attitude ,and maybe just explain to the about the trail and why its important that people continue to volunteer and preserve it! Streamweaver

Blue Jay

04-09-2004, 15:05

Joe, you are opening a huge can of Worms on that topic. Search under AMC for long arguments. Many between my good friend Weary (as he cringes) and myself. In my humble opinion the only difference between the AMC and GE or Monsanto is a matter of degree. All they both care about is money, all their environmental talk is a scam. Much like Democrats and Republicans.

Streamweaver, I do not kid myself into thinking anything I say could open someone's wallet. However, a few opened because of what we all said.

weary

04-09-2004, 15:09

. It seems to me that this action, along with many others, shows that the ATC is losing touch with the mission and becoming just another bureaucracy; creating animosity with trail neighbors, endless fundraising, etc.

As in all human affairs, we'll have to try it for awhile to learn whether the ATC changes help or hurt. But the impetus for the changes is the suspicion that the old system had lost touch with the mission.

As I understand it from having played a very minor part in the planning process, the worry was that with 5 million people using the AT each year and only 30,000 or so joining to support the effort, something had to be done to reconnect with the trail public.

As for constant fund-raising most human activities take a bit of money. Managing a 2,170 mile trail through 14 states and multiple ownerships cannot be done entirely on the cheap.

Just the trail itself takes quite a bit of money. Providing buffers to what in many places is just a 200-foot wide corridor for the footpath takes enormous amounts of money.

The Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust is currently looking to raise $500,000 to complete the purchase of Mount Abraham that was begun by ATC several years ago. That effort is just phase one of what figures to be maybe a $10 million effort to purchase trail buffers from Saddleback to Bigelow.

Most of the needed land is on the market. It will be sold. The only question is for what purpose -- new condo colonies, expanded ski trails, and vacation developments, or buffers to keep a semblance of a wild Maine available to AT users. Our address is MAT Land Trust, PO Box 325, Yarmouth, Maine 04096.

I don't apologize for asking for money. Asking and giving helps us achieve that wonderful sense of having done something important that will long outlast our tenure on this earth.

Weary

smokymtnsteve

04-09-2004, 15:48

"The plow of mortality drives through the stubble, turns over rocks and sod and weeds to cover the old, the worn-out, the husks, shells, empty seedpods and sapless roots, clearing the field for the next crop. A ruthless, brutal process - but clean and beautiful."

THANKS BE TO ED ABBEY!

gravityman

04-09-2004, 16:51

And I thought this thread was going to be about cheap SOBO's... Teachs me to read more carefully! :)

Gravity man

Chappy

04-09-2004, 17:34

Not all people who hike on the AT are members of the hiking community. Most just use the Trail, and never go back or give back.
I'd venture a guess that most AT hikers who can afford the membership fee, and who support what the ATC represents, are already members.
You can join for as little as 25-30 dollars. You get a decal, patch, magazine subscription, and discounts on ATC merchandise like maps, trail guides, tee shirts and other goods.
If you'd like to know more about the ATC, visit the website at http://www.appalachiantrail.org
while you're there, you can read for free the latest ATC magazine called the Appalachian Trailways News (or just "ATN"). The ATC is moving in a new and very postitive direction, read all about in the latest ATN!
You can also meet ATC reps at Traildays, the Gatherings, at the HQ in Harpers Ferry, and today and tomorrow at the Cabalas store in Port Clinton, PA., where they're setting up a traveling version of the ATC "Ultimate AT Store." details:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/trailnews/index.html

"Cheap SOB"? Nah.. I'll reserve that term for my brother-in-law :D

Thanks, TJ. Very informative response. This is what I was looking for when I came to WB for information. Unfortunately, not all are so helpful and choose the pen to vent their anger with the world. Had this kind of response been given in another thread I think I would have heard more clearly. For someone to try to tell me about service, what I owe, and how I should give back I find very distasteful. After all, I've spent the last 25 years of my life serving around the world defending our constitution and the freedoms we love...oh yeah, which gives people the right to be idiots when they open their mouths!

Glad to see this thread and your response has paved the way for us to learn about the ATC.

Jack Tarlin

04-09-2004, 18:26

As several folks have mentioned, there are several ways of "giving back" to the Trail, but considering how vast their responsibilities, their financial constraints, and the difficulty of their job, I personally think that the ATC is an extraordinary organization which does remarkable work.

Without their efforts (the vast majority of which is done by volunteers), the Trail would never have existed, nor would it have lasted this long. Also, without their efforts, the Trail would very quickly deteriorate and disappear.

There are many ways to give back to the Trail, but I can think of no finer one than joining and/or contributing financial support or volunteer work to the Appalachian Trail Conference.

To support the ATC is to help ensure the maintenance, condition, and very existence of the A.T.; if you wish to give something meaningful back to the A.T., and I think most of us do, there are fewer better ways to do it than to join or assist the ATC.

The Old Fhart

04-09-2004, 18:42

Ah, Blue Jay, someone asks for help and gets a lecture from the likes of you. Your response to the question asked by another poster was rude, inconsiderate, and what we’ve come to expect from you. Unless there is a law, rule, requirement, whatever that if you hike the trail you have to join the ATC then your pompous attitude toward the poster was totally uncalled for. Not everyone is going to give back to the trail according to you rules. So much for HYOH.

And as usual you try to drag the thread off track but I will answer your question.

Blue Jay-Speaking of ironic, remember all the grief certain Old Gass Passers gave to Warren for sneaking around a single corporate barrier. Now someone hikes the whole trail for free and not only do they think it's OK, they attack those who object. I can hardly wait for the convoluted logic to justify that.
Please try to follow this analogy: air is free however if you get an air tank from a medical supply store it will cost you for the service and using their tank. Simple enough so you should be able to understand. Now hiking the A.T. is free however if you use someone else’s services or land to access the A.T. you have to pay for their services or using their property. I know this is a hard concept for you to comprehend because of your obvious problems with anything to do with corporate America but the world will not change to meet your distorted view of it.

Check your post #301 under Rules and Regulations where you say:
For the last time, you cannot avoid paying a fee, WHEN THERE IS NO FEE. When you walk in you sign the register like every other park, hike your hike and leave, just as Warren did. Also the fact that you and the other Warren Witch Hunters are demading he pay a nonexistant fee is clear indication you have other axes to grind.
First, Warren was kind enough to answer my post by saying to me:
I believe you have not 'accused' (your word, not mine) me of 'sneaking' into Baxter to avoid paying. Neither have I specifically pointed you out as 'accusing' me. So, Blue Jay, you must be reading a different post than everyone else or you just like to distort what everyone says. Warren and others didn’t find that in my post, only you. Maybe you should just try to read what people say and not inject your distorted perception of the words

Second, please explain this: why would you insist that someone pay a nonexistent fee, i.e., an ATC membership or they’re an SOB, but out of the other side of your mouth say
For the last time, you cannot avoid paying a fee, WHEN THERE IS NO FEE. I’m sure everyone will get a chuckle out of your reply.

Percival

04-09-2004, 19:18

What gets me is trollish SOBs who jump on someone who says something as innocent as SOB on the internet. These SOBs who fill their minds with booze and all the trash you can imagine on the television are just itching for a fight, so when someone comes along and says something like "those cheap SOBs," instead of engaging in a debate they pounce on the poster for his choice of words (or acromyns), just like any of the other zillions of SOBs out there who use any excuse to stir up crap.

smokymtnsteve

04-09-2004, 19:18

"The sneakiest form of literary subtlety, in a corrupt society, is to speak the plain truth. The critics will not understand you; the public will not believe you; your fellow writers will shake their heads. Laughter, praise, honors, money, and the love of beautiful girls will be your only reward."

Thanks be to Abbey

and Peace to the Blue Jay!

smokymtnsteve

04-09-2004, 19:50

weary

04-09-2004, 20:11

"A journey into the wilderness is the freest, cheapest, most nonprivileged of pleasures. Anyone with two legs and the price of a pair of army surplus combat boots may enter."

The words of ABBEY!

Even SOBs can enter!

Well, yes. At least as long as wilderness exists. For those who haven't noticed let me announce that wilderness is an increasingly rare phenonenon. And even rarer are those who give a sh-t.

Weary

SavageLlama

04-09-2004, 20:34

All thru hikers are NOT ATC members...I thru hiked and am not a member.

I may be cheap
You thru-hiked and didn't join?

Well, at least you acknowledge you're cheap.. at just 30 beans to join the ATC, the cost to you is only slightly more than one cent per mile.

A-Train

04-09-2004, 20:40

I guess i'll post because all of this spurred from my simple, innocent (or so I thought) question a couple days ago. I thought I'd add how ironic it was when I got home to NY today, to find a piece of mail from the ATC asking me to become a member.

Blue Jay, you are entitled to your opinion. Honestly I somewhat agree with you. Yeah I got A LOT out of my Trail experience last year as I have gotten in previous section hikes and will continue to get by spending time on the AT. I get upset that many hikers and people I consider to be friends have shut the Trail almost completely out of their life and returned to their old life sans AT. But at the same time everyone has different degrees of connection and how they allow the AT to stay a part of their life. Some hardly think about it and others, like myself are on here everyday staying involved in the "community".
But BJ, I have a choice, as Old Fhart has showed and proven well. You're entitled to your opinion, and you know that, as you excercise it often here. Sure I probably will join the ATC in the near future and I have plans of doing a lot of trail work. But I don't need to prove myself or run down a resume of what I have and will do, there is no need for that on this site. I have my way of staying involved and that is fine with me for now. Think what you want. I don't understand what me being in college has to do with anything, so that comment seems irrelevant.
I'm sorry this turned into such a big debate, but it seems some good conversation has come out of it so that's a positive. I must say I'm gettin sick of tired of the bickering and the fighting on this site, and all the cheap shots by people (mostly alumni thru-hikers) against one another. I think all too often a lot of us (myself included) get too worked up and forget why we are here. I can only speak for myself, but my main purpose is to help others who are interested in hiking the Trail, not in bickering with people who hiked the Trail 5 or 10 years ago. I'm not sensitive but in the past 3 days or so 3 different posters on here have taken direct shots at innocent comments i've made and I'm simply tired of it. This site is wonderful because there is no restriction on what you can say, but I certainly think people have taken it too far at times and as a result we've strayed from the main purpose of the site.

steve hiker

04-09-2004, 20:40

weary

04-09-2004, 21:00

....but my main purpose is to help others who are interested in hiking the Trail, not in bickering with people who hiked the Trail 5 or 10 years ago.

For what it may be worth, my main purpose is to help protect the special wild places along the trail for our children, grandchildren and future generations -- in short for all who now and in the future may need this special remnant of a once great wilderness.

Weary

Chappy

04-09-2004, 21:03

"A journey into the wilderness is the freest, cheapest, most nonprivileged of pleasures. Anyone with two legs and the price of a pair of army surplus combat boots may enter."

The words of ABBEY!

Even SOBs can enter!

Hey Smoky, Sounds like that dude had an answer for everything! As for me...I really dig army surplus combat boots. :D

jersey joe

04-09-2004, 21:13

You thru-hiked and didn't join?

Well, at least you acknowledge you're cheap.. at just 30 beans to join the ATC, the cost to you is only slightly more than one cent per mile.
The reason I'm not a member of the ATC isn't because I'm cheap. It's because i've never been presented with the opportunity or a reason to become a member. It is a matter of awareness.

Happy

04-09-2004, 22:51

The reason I'm not a member of the ATC isn't because I'm cheap. It's because i've never been presented with the opportunity or a reason to become a member. It is a matter of awareness.

I agree 100 percent...where does the money go...in this thread there is already debate on the purpose of the funds...is it for a GREAT committee to decide how and who participates?

When you join a local trail maintaince organization and go out and help maintain you know WHAT is being accomplished...PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND?

If explained better and more universal, maybe more people including myself would participate?

smokymtnsteve

04-09-2004, 22:56

Abbey Hoffman?

Edward ABBEY

Kozmic Zian

04-09-2004, 22:58

:-? ....................................

Lugnut

04-10-2004, 00:40

Weary wrote:
As in all human affairs, we'll have to try it for awhile to learn whether the ATC changes help or hurt. But the impetus for the changes is the suspicion that the old system had lost touch with the mission.

Sort of my point. The old system had lost touch. I'm just not too confidant the "new" one is the answer. Other than programs such as the Konnarock Crew, which is great, the local clubs are the ones doing the heavy lifting. Any hiker could get involved with one of the local clubs and sleep with a clear conscience. If one wants to join the ATC then that's wonderful; it's just not the Gold Standard. We're all on the same team.

weary

04-10-2004, 09:44

Weary wrote:
Sort of my point. The old system had lost touch. I'm just not too confidant the "new" one is the answer. Other than programs such as the Konnarock Crew, which is great, the local clubs are the ones doing the heavy lifting. Any hiker could get involved with one of the local clubs and sleep with a clear conscience. If one wants to join the ATC then that's wonderful; it's just not the Gold Standard. We're all on the same team.

One should not expect perfection in human affairs. One can always find an excuse not to support something. But the simple fact is that the Appalachian Trail would not exist were it not for the admittedly flawed Appalachian Trail Conference.

And neither will it continue to exist without an Appalachian Trail Conference. Without ATC, for awhile we would have 35 or so separate trails. Gradually, without an organizing conference we would have a broken trail.

The maintaining clubs are a mixed lot. Most are essentially social outdoor groups -- made up of folks who love to hike together, but of which only a tiny minority of members do any trail maintenance. Their priorities are not trail protection, but trail use.

Maine is one of the exceptions. MATC is strictly a maintaining group, but even in this state, trail work is a distinctly minority effort. Here the social group is the Maine Chapter, AMC. It has 3,500 members and is growing. MATC has fewer than 600 members and is shrinking. And of the 600 only about 100 do the actual work.

MATC does an excellent job of maintaining the trail, but even this would deteriorate without the Appalachian Trail Conference. We raise about $9,000 a year in dues. Our annual budget is $160,000. Probably two thirds of the difference is money that is funneled through ATC.

Some comes from ATC dues. Most is from the National Park Service. How long do you suppose Park Service funds would continue without a national group doing the fighting and working with park bureaucrats and congressional committees? How many of the maintaining clubs have the knowledge or desire to send folks to Washington periodically to fight for the money needed? How likely is it that Congress would respond positively to 35 separate clubs, all arguing for different needs and goals?

Within just the past decade we voted for a Congress with a collective goal of creating a "park closing commission." We have a national administration today that has that as a goal, though it is less blunt in telling the world what it wants, and therefore is far more dangerous.

In the real world the trail will not continue without the Appalachian Trail Conference. Those who find fault should especially join and fight for a better conference. We trail advocates are a tiny minority. We have a far better chance of reforming a central organization that shares our goals, than fighting the national budget battles with splintered voices.

Weary

WalkinHome

04-10-2004, 12:55

Originally Posted by Lugnut
Weary wrote:
Sort of my point. The old system had lost touch. I'm just not too confidant the "new" one is the answer. Other than programs such as the Konnarock Crew, which is great, the local clubs are the ones doing the heavy lifting. Any hiker could get involved with one of the local clubs and sleep with a clear conscience. If one wants to join the ATC then that's wonderful; it's just not the Gold Standard. We're all on the same team.

Hi All,

I think the above quote is right on point. By joining one of the maintaining clubs, you will have a real hands on, see everything that is happening experience. You will probably be in a very good position to influence the events/direction of that club also. None of that is a bad thing. I will share with you the thought that it will not take you very long to realize what a tremendous resource and ally the ATC is. They are, after all, a bit of a benevolent parent that oversee the "entire" trail. And there in lies the crux of the ATC. Their ONLY agenda is the protection of the wonderful AT. Protecting it from ALL percieved or real, for you, me, your kids, your grandkids on and on....not to promote "eco- or nature based" tourism, not to see how much money it can make or how much money it can spend. This cannot be construed as a bad thing. The are a fine organization and have been a great help to me in my "giving back" process. My opinion.

SavageLlama

04-10-2004, 16:35

I've been a member for a few years and the newsletters alone have been worth the membership fee. Not to mention that the trail would not be nearly as serene as it is today without the ATC.. they do a helluva lot to protect and enhance the trail.

Here's an invitation to join for anyone that needs one:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/support/index.html

Jack Tarlin

04-10-2004, 16:54

"The traill wound not be nearly as serene without the ATC......"

This understates things considerably.

Forget serenity. The trail would NO LONGER EXIST without the ATC, and it would be well if more people remembered this.

weary

04-10-2004, 18:43

Forget serenity. The trail would NO LONGER EXIST without the ATC, and it would be well if more people remembered this.

Jack has spoken the truth and in far fewer words than I had managed. But I suspect the problem is not what people my have remembered, but what they have never bothered to take the time to learn.

The fundamental truth is that this trail is one of the true miracles of the modern world. Benton MacKaye had a remarkable insight, expressed it at precisely the right time in history for people to notice, and probably by pure happenstance someone as wise and hardheaded as Myron Avery was around to carry at least a portion of McKaye's vision to reality.

Other trails have their champions, Pacific Crest, Continental Divide, but were it not for McKaye's Vision and Avery's realism, probably neither would exist. The AT set the pattern for all long distance hiking trails

And without the Appalachian Trail Conference, not even the AT will continue to exist. The ATC continues the miracle.

I know. I can hear you thinking, "what's this to do with me." "Sure, ATC did good things, but I don't like what they do today, so I'm not going to support them." "Others could do better." "Let the government take over." "I just like the challenge of the trail, to hell with all this political stuff."....

Being a pessimist, I suspect all these negative expressions eventually will prevail. The trail will disappear. But being a stubborn SOB as opposed to being a cheap one, I just keep plugging away at creating buffers, warning of the fragile nature of trail, keeping my three miles free of blowdowns and brush, and dreaming of finding a few months so I can explore the trail once again on a long distance hike.

Weary, who has gotten so caught up in his rhetoric that he sent in his ATC membership renewal today. (It was due in February)

Peaks

04-10-2004, 19:05

Most trails, including the AT, exist because of the efforts of many volunteers. So, when we use them, we have an obligation to give back.

This give back can take several forms. Foremost, I think that most organizations would like your labor and talents.

If it isn't convienent to give your time, then at least help support those organizations with a financial contribution.

As Jack pointed out, the AT would not exist without the ATC. Likewise, the trail in Maine probably wouldn't exist with the efforts of the Maine ATC club, and so forth. And the Florida Trail wouldn't exist with the efforts of the FTC.

So, if you hike, and enjoy the outdoors, then give-back in some form. It's selfish to be a user and never a giver. And anyone who benefits from upwards of 6 months on the trail has a tremendous obligation.

Lugnut

04-10-2004, 19:42

Chappy

04-10-2004, 23:50

I don't have any argument with anything Weary or Jack say about this. I too think it would be terrific if everyone that set foot on the AT would immediately join the ATC. My original point (that seems to have been lost) was that there are many other ways to help out and just because someone doesn't join the ATC, for whatever reason, is not grounds for ridicule.

Since I have learned more about the ATC , I would also agree with their statements. However, I would have to say that I think Blue Jay's characterization of someone who uses the AT and is not an ATC member is more than ridicule...to call someone an SOB is a poor way to make your point. I'm glad he apologized, but it's unfortunate he continued with sarcasm in his message. I think that usually indicates a lack of sincerity, but since I don't know Blue Jay I will not question the sincerity of his apology. Personally, I learn more from thoughtful, organized content as presented by BJ and Weary than from inflammatory statements. Probably, if you're really interested in helping others learn that's how you will present your case.

Blue Jay

04-11-2004, 17:46

Since I have learned more about the ATC , I would also agree with their statements. However, I would have to say that I think Blue Jay's characterization of someone who uses the AT and is not an ATC member is more than ridicule...to call someone an SOB is a poor way to make your point. I'm glad he apologized, but it's unfortunate he continued with sarcasm in his message. I think that usually indicates a lack of sincerity, but since I don't know Blue Jay I will not question the sincerity of his apology.

I just came back from a great overnighter on my sacred AT, so I'll be extra nice. Since you are not a thru the apology was clearly not to you therefore who cares if you accept it or not. I also do not care if you think I'm sincere. "Since you learned about the ATC...." like they are a secret organization, give me a break. Your santimony knows no bounds.

screwysquirrel

04-17-2004, 19:38

[QUOTE=Blue Jay]I just came back from a great overnighter on my sacred AT, so I'll be extra nice. Since you are not a thru the apology was clearly not to you therefore who cares if you accept it or not. I also do not care if you think I'm sincere. "Since you learned about the ATC...." like they are a secret organization, give me a break. Your santimony knows no bounds.[QUOTE]
You're an ass, Blue Jay.

Blue Jay

04-18-2004, 15:41

You're an ass, Blue Jay.

Coming from you I am honored. At least you spelled it right. :clap

Percival

04-18-2004, 16:25

You're an ass, Blue Jay.

Coming from you I am honored. At least you spelled it right.
Not only did he spell it right, he used it properly in context:

Main Entry: 1ass
Pronunciation: <TT>'as</TT>
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English assa, probably from Old Irish asan, from Latin asinus
1 : any of several hardy gregarious African or Asian perissodactyl mammals (genus Equus) smaller than the horse and having long ears; especially : an African mammal (E. asinus) that is the ancestor of the donkey
2 often vulgar : a stupid, obstinate, or perverse person -- often compounded with a preceding adjective <don't be a smart-ass>

ted holdridge

04-20-2004, 12:31

Tha Wookie

04-20-2004, 13:40

We all hike for different reasons. Some need it at times, some have time to give back. It doesn't matter which you choose. Don't make everyone feel guilty for using the trail. Following no trace rules is enough. Doing more is great.
Maybe switch that around: LNT is great, but doing more is enough.

I say this because it if weren't for "more", there would be nothing to LNT on. It's not just the past - it's the future.

This is not meant to be argumentative, and I haven't read every post here, but have skimmed, and I think there needs to be a little more said about the ATC: They are not just a trail maintenance club. They serve as an important centralized body that has the resources through membership and government funding to protect AT interests like land aquisition, viewshed protection, and trail research (just to name a few). It is a unique community-based club that gives members a highly influential voice, despite the Park Service designation of the AT.

Many other trail organizations model themselves after the ATC. I think it is important that we all take the time to search out the organizations that protect other trails we might enjoy, like the PCTA or Colorado Trail Foundation, and make a donation or join a volunteer work team.

And for those thru-hike addicts like myself, I encourage you to try the newer developing trails and support their organizations, or even help found new ones. Together, we will make a national trails system that will cover the country for all Americans to enjoy like the east enjoys the AT. The AHS is taking the lead. Let's all do our part.