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TJ aka Teej
04-13-2004, 12:13
Steve 'The Ferryman' Longley will return to the Kennebec for this season,
schedule and announcement coming soon from the ATC.
EDIT 4/15/04-----
May 21st through July 16th 9am to 11am
July 17th through September 30th 9am to 11am and 2pm to 4pm
October 1st through October 11th 10am to 12 noon
------------------
In 2003 the New England Outdoor Center ferried 1238 hikers across.
Their totals, in part, were;
Month - GAME - MEGA
May - 2 -2
June - 72 - 67
July - 153 - 69
Aug. - 162 - 41
Sept. - 294 - 29
Oct. - 38 - 1

Footslogger
04-13-2004, 12:32
Thanks Teej ...just thinking that (if they're not already used) the Kennebec crossing stats might be a good metric in validating yearly thru-hikers totals ...since "A", you've got to cross the river to get to Katahdin and "B" I would imagine that the majority of hikers who cross the Kennebec do make it to Katahdin.

Anyhow ....just a thought.

'Slogger

attroll
04-13-2004, 12:36
Way Kool. I am glad to see Steve back. I will have to give him a buz and say congrats.

Moose2001
04-13-2004, 12:37
Slogger...I don't know how accurate that would be. If you add up those numbers, you get 721 Northbounders. If you had a starting number at Springer of 1800, the 721 would give you a completion rate of around 40%. Seems a "bit" high to me.

Footslogger
04-13-2004, 12:41
I hear ya Moose ...guess there are a lot of folks who section hike that area and use the ferry. Maybe Steve could "filter" his numbers. I think I remember indicating that I was a thru-hiker when I filled out the ferry paperwork last year.

Anyway ...it's not the focus of this thread so ....NUFF SAID !!

Jack Tarlin
04-13-2004, 12:47
Teej, thanx for passing this along. It's great news; Steve is one of the finest people I've met in all my travels, and it's great that so many of this year's hikers will have the opportunity to meet him.

TJ aka Teej
04-13-2004, 12:55
...just thinking that (if they're not already used) the Kennebec crossing stats might be a good metric in validating yearly thru-hikers totals ...

The ATC start figures are from Neels Gap and Harpers Ferry, and their finish figures are from people who report in after their hikes.
The Ferry figures are pretty detailed, I only posted nobo and sobo, not sectioneers or flippers. (that's why they don't add up to 1238)
The Baxter Park figures are very detailed too, since just about every finishing hiker checks in with the Ranger at KSC. Baxter totals are always higher than ATC totals, and seem to jive with the Kennebec numbers. None of the numbers are 100% accurate. Not everyone reports to the ATC, not everyone who reports really thruhiked. No one counts all the people who ford the Kennebec. Not everyone who gets to Katahdin even sees the Ranger, and only about 2/3s of those who are offered the ATC form take it.
The engineer in me wants to dig into those numbers, but the hiker in me is too lazy to!

TankHiker
04-13-2004, 13:07
Too bad I missed Steve last year. I heard so much about him!

Last year's ferry operator was pretty funny. I was all excited about crossing the Kennebec (the river I grew up on!). When the ferrywoman finally arrived, immediately told us how much she hated shuttling us hikers across, and how she couldn't wait until hiker season was finally over. It wasn't exactly the warm welcome I was hoping for. :)

On a hiker-counting side note, last year I waited for the ferry with 4 section hikers.

-Tank

Lone Wolf
04-13-2004, 13:10
Why can't a footbridge be built like the one over the James river?

hungryhowie
04-13-2004, 14:19
There is a footbridge, LW.

It's upstream a little ways. It appears in places as gravel bars. You can only see it when the flow is down, and it is quite flaky at times. It can also disappear under water in the span of 2-3 minutes and whisk any unsuspecting hikers down stream.

I didn't think it was a very good bridge, but it did the trick for me :o

An important aside, crossing the Kenny is potentially a very dangerous venture and I don't recommend anyone try it without fully assessing and accepting the inherent risks. At least one hiker has died from the river's force dragging him under. As said above, the water can rise from managable to impossible in a span of only 2-3 minutes. It is also worth noting that the ferry is the official trail. So aqua blazing really is blueblazing after all!

-Howie

Jack Tarlin
04-13-2004, 14:40
Wolf--

A permanent bridge would be too expensive to build; it'd also have to be extremely high over the water or it'd be destroyed in quick order by an ice jam or floating trees; this is one of the main reasons there are so few bridges on the Trail in Maine.

For the time being, the ferry is the best and most economical way to handle the problem. Fording should only be considered by people who know the river and terrain, and even then, there is potential risk.

hikerltwt
04-13-2004, 16:37
I have to agree with Howie.........the gravel bridge worked fine for me as well. You have to asess the risks( minimal) and make your decision. I walked every inch of the trail to reach the Kennebec. I just couldn't see using the ferry and miss walking all the way to Katahdin on my feet. I expect to encounter many areas of considerably greater risk along the PCT next year. It is an individual choice, but I feel the gravity of the situation is over-rated by the ATC. One unfortunate death, and suddenly it is a terrifying, major river crossing? I found the river to be swift and was glad I had my trekking poles, but I would ford again when I re- hike the trail in the future. I found the water leval low in the early morning and scooted across just as the ferry operator was arriving. Make your own choice, just don't let the hype sway you. If you want to walk all the way from Ga-ME it is possible. Please no discussion on the purist vs. the yellow, blue or what ever colorblaze some one is following. HYOH, I only cared about my hike and it was going to be pure. Others are free to chose their path. :-)

hikerltwt
04-13-2004, 16:40
Though the Official trail is the ferry, a boat ride is not a trail and my goal was to walk the entire trail. I am not advocating anyone follow my foot steps because I feel it is safe. I am reccomending that it be a personal decision and only sharing the conditions/result I found!

A-Train
04-13-2004, 18:04
As far as what Footslogger said, it does seem like a good opportunity to gauge how many thru-hikers are coming thru and finishing, but unfortunately its difficult to differentiate between section and thru-hikers, tho I do believe we signed a form before being ferried about which direction we were going and if we were thru-hiking. Those stats tho have got to be for all hikers, not just thru-hikers, as Moose states, since there are way too many of them. Plus there weren't 2 NOBO thru-hikers who were ferried across in May. The first Nobo went thru there the first week in June and crossed by foot, not by canoe. And you also run into the problem of counting the many folks who decide to ford each year before or after the times of operation of the ferry. The world will never know exactly how many people hike the Trail....

warren doyle
04-13-2004, 19:08
I hope to feel the current of the Kennebec caressing my calves and thighs for many more years to come - and so it is a river of hope for me rather than a river of fear.

grizzlyadam
04-13-2004, 20:45
it is pretty interesting to see those stats about the Kennebec. it is kind of fun to know that i was the sobo that was ferried across in october.

Moon Monster
04-13-2004, 22:35
Those stats tho have got to be for all hikers, not just thru-hikers, as Moose states, since there are way too many of them. Plus there weren't 2 NOBO thru-hikers who were ferried across in May.

Yes, I agree.
I have some perspective on the July 2003 number. I crossed in the ferry on the morning of July 18. I was the 38th NOBO thru-hiker to sign in at the Katahdin Stream register eight days later and the ranger on duty corroborated that by saying "about 30 or 40" had finished prior to me. I know for a fact that five of those 37 ahead of me forded and did not use the ferry. The next NOBO thru-hiker behind me was two days back, and only about 4 or 5 that I am sure of were within five days behind me (I have talked to some of those since and they were my source for this).

If this July stat of 153 is only thru-hikers, then all of a sudden, in late July, well over 100 NOBOs came through in ten days. That's possible I guess, but I doubt it. On the other hand, I only saw one other NOBO thru-hiker in the entire state of Maine last July, but I met probably 40 sectioners in that part of Maine who would have crossed in the ferry.

Bottom line, though, I wish I could have met Steve last year. I've heard great stories.

attroll
04-14-2004, 01:00
I hear ya Moose ...guess there are a lot of folks who section hike that area and use the ferry. Maybe Steve could "filter" his numbers. I think I remember indicating that I was a thru-hiker when I filled out the ferry paperwork last year.

Anyway ...it's not the focus of this thread so ....NUFF SAID !!
Steve’s count is very accurate. When you cross the river with him he ask everyone that he ferry’s across what they are doing whether it is day hike, overnighter or weekend or thru-hiking. Then he rights it in his log book immediately. He does not mess around he takes his job as the ferryman very serious. If any of you know Steve you know what I mean.

chris
04-14-2004, 08:53
In the early AM, in August, during a period of normal precip, how high/fast is the Kennedbec? Waist? Knee? Of course, everything depends, but in a normal state, is the Kennebec really that bad of a ford to require a boat to get across?

Lone Wolf
04-14-2004, 09:04
Waist deep on the north side. The ford is overrated as far as danger. Go for it.

TJ aka Teej
04-14-2004, 10:15
- Steve Longley is a fine gent, a conscientious and skilled paddler, and solid proof you don't need to be a thruhiker to be a valued member of the AT community. He's not doing this for the pay, he's a successful real estate agent, guide, and store owner.
- A bridge has been advocated for a long time, but $$ is the main thought blocker. A cable bridge once spanned the West Branch at the North end of the 100 Mile. A similar rig could be done upstream from the ford, using a midstream island for a pier. The ATC spent over a million in New Jersey for a boardwalk and bridge to avoid a suburban road walk, but won't even consider bridging the Kennebec to save lives. As far as cost is concerned, you'd save 10k a year on the ferry contract, so the bridge would pay for its own construction. Other positives are it would be open 24/7 all year round, and would end excuses for fording.
- Last year's first nobo was Walkin' Man, who almost drowned swimming the Kennebec. I met him at Abol Bridge after he did a 40+ mile day from Cooper Brook.
- Fording should only be done by hikers who have forded rivers before. Few AT hikers have ever forded rivers. The rafting and electricity generating releases are not scheduled like clockwork anymore, and the river level can rise 8 feet in 10 minutes. One hiker was rescued from a midstream boulder one mile down stream from the crossing last July. Could you ford? Probably. Should you? No.
- The AT was originally routed here in Caratunk to take advantage of the existing ferry services serving sportsmen going across to camps. Myron, Earl, and the other old timers used boats to cross several bodies of water in Maine. Right up through the 70s fellows would take you across the river in power boats. If you seek a traditional experience, take the ferry.
- Her name was Alice Ferrence. The next year's Philosopher's Guide was dedicated to her memory, and the ATC and MATC established the free canoe service in 1987. That's when Steve Longley started his career as the Ferryman, carrying over 14,000 hikers across in a canoe with a white blaze painted on the bottom. The ATC's official, and "pure", route is to take the canoe.
- The one person who knows more about this crossing than anyone else *by far* is Steve Longley. He's watched that river for many years through every season. If you want an informed opinion about fording, I suggest you ask him.

Moon Monster
04-14-2004, 12:55
Excellent post TJ.
I talked at length last month with the July 2003 hiker who got in trouble at the crossing. He was just a few dozen yards behind 2 others who forded with little difficulty, but that distance was the difference in 5 or 6 feet of water rise in just a couple minutes. The big thing to note is that he had no experience with the Kennebec. Most of those here who advocate fording (or downplay its difficulty) have experience with that river or with fording in general, but I think it is irresponsible of them to suggest that newbies should try it without first giving detailed instructions on that river, locations, times, fording techniques, the dam's release, emergency instructions, etc. Sorry if I've missed it, but I've never seen a whiteblaze.net post that had detailed instructions; and such detail is certainly not conventional wisdom among each season's new crop of thru-hikers.

Jack Tarlin
04-14-2004, 16:12
I agree with Teej and Moon Monster 100% on this.

Bottom line is that Steve Longley, who knows this part of the river better than anyone alive, has gone on the record to state that he thinks that fording here, unless you are intimately familiar with the crossing and the physical features of the terrain, is at best, inadvisable, and at worst, extremely dangerous. Advising folks who DON'T have this information to ford anyway does not seem to me to be particularly sage advice.

Refusing to ford here does not mean you're surrendering to fears. It merely means you've decided to embrace common sense. Unless you are one of the comparatively few people who knows the river well enough, fording the Kennebec here is not a particularly wise thing to do. The man who knows the river as well as anyone alive feels this way.....that's good enough for me.

warren doyle
04-14-2004, 16:34
There have been some very good posts on this thread recently. Good to see informed opinions given without much negativity attached.
Enjoy the ford Chris. Drink it all in! (figuratively speaking that is!)

Peaks
04-14-2004, 18:40
In the early AM, in August, during a period of normal precip, how high/fast is the Kennedbec? Waist? Knee? Of course, everything depends, but in a normal state, is the Kennebec really that bad of a ford to require a boat to get across?

The problem comes from a hydroelectric station upstream that releases water when ever it want to. I'm told the water comes up so fast that you can't beat it across.

Carratunk and Forks upstream are the whitewater capital of New England. There is a daily release usually 10,000 to 12,000 cfs I believe.

nero
04-14-2004, 20:56
I'm kind of green when it comes to hiking. I wasn't in boy scouts or anything and have only seen the southern AT up to the NOC. I also don't have any experience fording rivers. What's the easiest way to get out of your pack should you fall while trying to ford the river?

-nero

Footslogger
04-14-2004, 21:30
Nero ...since you asked, the accepted (but not often followed) practice when crossing any flowing water is to undo your hip belt and loosen your shoulder straps. Should you fall while trying to cross the stream/river just spin and pull your arms out ...like taking off a jacket. The last thing you want to do is find yourself shooting down a rapidly flowing river with a heavy pack secured to your back.

But since you mentioned being somewhat new to the whole hiking scene I suggest that you NOT even attempt this technique on the Kennebec, should your travels ever take you to Maine.

'Slogger

A-Train
04-14-2004, 21:38
I'd like to reiterate and elaborate on what Slogger said. Not only should a newbie not attempt to ford the Kenebec, but no one, including a hiker who has just hiked 2020 miles. Sure you have a personal choice and people are gonna keep doing it every yr, but the more people that come on to site's like this and say "no problem, go for it" the more likely it is that someone will drown again. I don't believe the family of the woman who drowned would say the ford is overated. And this is the same issue as far as carrying maps. No number of thru-hikers who say that they did it and lived without, be it maps or a canoe, will make what they are doing safe or OK in my book. Just my 2 cents

attroll
04-19-2004, 10:04
I just got some information straight from the horses mouth. Steve has a three year contract with the ATC for the Kennebec ferry. He told me that he does not have a schedule yet. So it sounds like the ATC has put one out with out telling the Ferryman.

TJ aka Teej
04-19-2004, 21:43
So it sounds like the ATC has put one out with out telling the Ferryman.

Steve sent me an email today with his unofficial schedule, almost the same as the one I was sent by the MATC, but not quite. He'll let us know which hours and dates become official soon.
A three year contract is a great deal, after all he did the job for 16 years! He'll ferry AT hiker #15,000 safely across the Kennebec soon after the 2004 season starts - an amazing record!

weary
04-19-2004, 23:17
In the early AM, in August, during a period of normal precip, how high/fast is the Kennedbec? Waist? Knee? Of course, everything depends, but in a normal state, is the Kennebec really that bad of a ford to require a boat to get across?

Except for early spring floods, seasons and time of year really have very little to do with it. This is an almost totally controlled river. When the dam that is located miles upstream is closed, the water level is low. When it opens -- and it has absolutely no schedule -- it quickly becomes high. Walk it if you insist, but for most people that is a very unwise choice.

As for constructing a bridge. Bridges in Maine work best between two high bluffs. Those don't exist on the Kennebec near Carotunk. There's a major highway a few hundred yards from the northerly side of the river that is just a few yards above the typical spring flood level.

I guarantee that TJ's $10,000 a year in ferry costs wouldn't even pay the interest costs on an adequate permanent bridge. I haven't seen the new contract figures, but I suspect that not even the nearer to $20,000 in actual annual cost would pay for a bridge.

I urged that FERC (Federal Energy REgulatory Commission) require a bridge as a condition for relicencing the dam. For some reason, it didn't take my advice. But I'm not terribly disappointed. I kind of like the idea of a canoe ferry as compared with a million dollar steel bridge in a very precious and kind of wild section of the trail.

Weary

attroll
04-21-2004, 02:17
I got a phone call from Steve the Ferryman today. He is relinquishing his real estate license. He gave me his schedule. It is the same as the one posted on the Maine Appalachian Trail Club homepage. For those that don't have it this is what he told me.

May 21 through July 16, 9 a.m. to 11 a.m.

July 17 through September 30 , 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. & 2 p.m. to 4 p.m.

October 1 through October 11, 10 a.m. to 12 noon only

warren doyle
04-21-2004, 10:03
This thread continues to be constructive.

A-Train (post #28) - I respect your opinions. However, I will have to disagree with your logic concerning if more people ford the Kennebec there will be more drownings. As far as I know, there has been only one drowning of a thru-hiker in the past thirty-five years. However, there has been at least four thru-hikers murdered on the trail during that time - would you suggest that we don't encourage people to walk the AT since it has had the most murders of any of the long distance trails? There have been many incidents of broken bones in the 215-mile section of the AT between Glencliff, NH and Flagstaff Lake in the past 35 years, do you suggest that people be discouraged from walking this section?

Although the AT is a 'wilderness footpath', it is still a footpath only through small sections of wilderness, and some would say no wilderness at all. The Kennebec is no longer a wild river but I have faith that 'educated' hikers can ford the river safely under their own power if they know when and where it is the safest, or with the least amount of risk. If we cannot have environmental wilderness 'without' we can discover and celebrate our personal wilderness 'within'. Fording the Kennebec is one of the celebrations.

"If the human species has lost its animal strength, at least its individual members can have the satisfaction of finding it again."

"Learn wildness and you don't fear anything, except people afraid."

I'm glad to see Steve Longley back as the Ferryman. He is a valuable human resource to the trail experience.

A-Train
04-21-2004, 13:18
Warren, your analogy doesn't make sense to me. Yes I'd agree that we shouldn't stop walking the AT or stop sleeping at shelters because of a few murders. However murders aren't something we can really control, especially if someone wants to come into a shelter and shoot a sleeping hiker. We can however control drowning in the Kenebec and ensure safety by taking the canoe across.

I'm not advocating you or anyone else stop fording the river. If you ford it you should hopefully know the possible consequences. If one person could drown, so could another. At least a couple thu-hikers that were ahead of me almost drowned this year including one hiker who needed to be aided by a river guide downstream.

TJ aka Teej
04-21-2004, 13:32
Using Warren's logic:
100% of drownings and murders on the AT happened to hikers who did not take the ferry across the Kennebec.
100% of the hikers who took the ferry did not drown, and were not murdered on the AT.
Taking the canoe is the best way to not be murdered or drown on the AT.

warren doyle
04-22-2004, 20:05
A-train:
I will maintain that some, if not all, of the aforementioned murders might have been avoided if the victims were more cautious in their relating to their murderers before the deed was done. There is a parallel to the caution that needs to be exercised in safely fording the Kennebec. People should not cross the river when the water level is too high (the upstream rock bars are not visible) and every hiker, regardless of the water level, should always undo their waistbelt, loosen their shoulder straps, and wear their hiking shoes while crossing. This was common knowledge among most of the hundreds of thru-hikers who safely forded the Kennebec in the ten-15 year period before the Ferrence drowning.
Happy trails and fording to all!

warren doyle
04-22-2004, 20:11
TJ:

More accurately, you should instead say "using my interpretation of Warren's logic".
That would be more honest unless you can say exactly how I think or know me as well as I do.
It is obvious that we perceive and interpret the world/trail differently. I don't feel threatened by you and the tone of my posts, by and large, reflect that.

smokymtnsteve
04-22-2004, 20:14
"If the human species has lost its animal strength, at least its individual members can have the satisfaction of finding it again."

.


From the WIZARD of OZ..

If I only had a Brain.

The Human species has not Thrived on earth because of thier animal Strength...but because of the size and function of thier gray matter.
but there are individual differences.

TJ aka Teej
04-22-2004, 22:49
I don't feel threatened by you and the tone of my posts, by and large, reflect that.

What a thing to say, Warren. You thought I was trying to sound threatening? I was just having fun with the odd logic you use to shore up your opinion about fording. Perhaps you should face your fear of small watercraft and take the canoe the next time to get to the Kennebec. Or perhaps it's a fear of bright orange lifejackets you need to overcome?

Enough kidding. You will agree won't you, that it's your personal experience in fording that fuels your bravdo? And you will agree that few AT hikers have ever forded a river? As an educator, do you think a student should be graded pass/fail on the first lesson? Failing the lesson at the Kennebec can be deadly, don't you agree?

smokymtnsteve
04-22-2004, 23:06
Exactly teej...

I used to work as a BIG TRUCK driver trainer...there are places I can go and maneveuers that I can do with a big rig that you "shouldn't" do and it would have been incompetent and unprofessional of me to encourage, suggest or even show "how to" to do these "unorthodox" moves to the new and inexperienced drivers. as a professional driver educator I was responsible to teach these students the legal, safe, correct way of operating ...not show them my "tricks"

warren doyle
04-29-2004, 09:19
TJ,
I don't feel you sound threatening but I am trying to find what motivates you to have such a 'attacking tone' to your posts. Usually people have a need to strike out at what they are afraid of, or don't understand.
"Learn wildness and you don't fear anything, except people afraid." Perhaps your posts would have more credibility if they focused on criticizing/disagreeing with the message rather than the messenger. It is obvious that you feel that hikers, especially new ones, should take the ferry across the Kennebec. I am not telling hikers to disregard your advice. I am just providing another viewpoint which you disagree with.
As an educator/human being, I feel that a person has a much greater chance of becoming more alive, rather than dead, by fording the Kennebec under their own foot/leg/mind/spirit power. I base this on my observations of several dozen hikers I have seen, heard and talked with shortly after they completed the ford - almost all of them first-timers.
Happy trails and fording!

SGT Rock
04-29-2004, 09:44
Waist deep on the north side. The ford is overrated as far as danger. Go for it.

If the water is only waste deep, then it shouldn't be too bad. It sounds like fun to walk across.

Something I did notice about the film "2000 miles to Maine" was that the ferryman seemed to know when the water releases upstream were and how long it took the flow to get to the site. So, if someone wanted to walk it, it seems they could in fact find out what the realistic chance of a flow hitting in the time it would get to cross the river by simply asking him. I assume this since I haven't hiked that section.

Comments?

Blue Jay
04-29-2004, 10:11
So, if someone wanted to walk it, it seems they could in fact find out what the realistic chance of a flow hitting in the time it would get to cross the river by simply asking him. I assume this since I haven't hiked that section.

Comments?

Comments, damn it's good to have you back. You cut through all the BS and offer a sensible solution to countless posts about this issue. I've always taken the canoe since it's there when I get there.

weary
04-29-2004, 10:14
If the water is only waste deep, then it shouldn't be too bad. It sounds like fun to walk across.

Something I did notice about the film "2000 miles to Maine" was that the ferryman seemed to know when the water releases upstream were and how long it took the flow to get to the site. So, if someone wanted to walk it, it seems they could in fact find out what the realistic chance of a flow hitting in the time it would get to cross the river by simply asking him. I assume this since I haven't hiked that section.

Comments?

Think waist deep in fast moving water with slippery and uneven-sized stones for a footpath. Even before the ferry service was created 15 or 20 years ago, all the official MATC guide books urged hikers to arrange a private contractor to ferry them across the Kennebec. Several private people in Caratunk provided ferry service for a fee.

The advice has been not to try to wade the Kennebec since the trail was begun in Maine in the early 1930s.

Hydroelectric power is used mostly for peaking power. The dams are opened when demand for electricity peaks. Since electricity use follows patterns anyone who works the river daily gets a feel for when the river is likely to rise.

The key word is likely. Wise ferry persons will keep this information to themselves so as not to encourage hikers to make dangerous choices. An exception might be when a hiker seems determined to ford. Then a ferry person probably has an obligation to warn that there's a good chance the water will be three feet higher before the hiker reaches the other side.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
04-29-2004, 10:21
First off, the water releases from upstream are not necessarily on a set and definite schedule; they don't always occur at the same time of day, so therefore, one can't be totally sure of when it is "safe" to ford.

Secondly, while Steve could provide some information of this sort, he'd rather not, as he doesn't want to be in the position of encouraging people to ford, a practice which he believes is an individual's right, but not a right that it's particularly bright to exercise.

Thirdly, Steve doesn't wish to encourage folks how to do this "safely" and then see a tragedy occur regardless of his advice and instructions.

Plain and simply, Steve, who knows this crossing better than anyone alive, and certainly better than anyone posting here, doesn't think fording the Kennebec is an intelligent thing to do, nor does he feel that informing others on how to ford, or encouraging others to do so is something he wants to be involved in. Friends of the Trail generally refrain from encouraging fellow hikers to do foolish or reckless things; if other "educators" wish to encourage this behavior, that's fine, but don't expect Steve to. If he didn't believe in the Kennebec Ferry, I'm sure he'd have spent a great part of the last 15 years doing something other than helping hikers safely across the river.

TJ aka Teej
04-29-2004, 11:57
I agree that Steve knows this river better than anyone.
He says to take the ferry.

I've said "Could you ford? Probably. Should you ford? Probably not."

I think one of us is right.

TJ aka Teej
04-29-2004, 12:02
TJ,
I don't feel you sound threatening but I am trying to find what motivates you to have such a 'attacking tone' to your posts. Usually people have a need to strike out at what they are afraid of, or don't understand.
"Learn wildness and you don't fear anything, except people afraid." Perhaps your posts would have more credibility if they focused on criticizing/disagreeing with the message rather than the messenger.
Warren, didn't you post this today?

TJ,
Boats available at the Caratunk crossing for many pre-1986 AT hikers? I guess this is yet another example of an interpretation (statement of a fact) of one who was not there during this period of time (YOU) as opposed to someone who was (ME).

"Th' reason hims gots so much advice t' give t'others is coz'n he ain't never used none on his own self" -Raz'mus

bulldog
04-29-2004, 13:49
I personally forded the river with no difficulties in 2000. I was curious as to how often does the river rise while Steve is in the middle of it ferrying one or more persons accross. Personally, i feel a canoe with only one paddler carrying 2 or 3 grown people and 35-80 lbs of gear, while much safer than swimming, is still a dangerous prospect. Anyone ever have the river rise on them while they were being ferried accross? Does steve ever take more than one person at a time?

bulldog

gravityman
04-29-2004, 13:55
Just for reference - White water safety dictates that you should not stand up in any water that is above the knee. The reason for this is that there is something called foot entrapment (Guess what that is) and if the force of the water is strong enough to push you over, and your foot is entraped, then you need to be able to do a "push-up" to get your face out of the water.

People die every few years from this on the Nantahala (Nanny was we called it) because even though the water seems shallow, once your foot is stuck and you get pushed down, you are screwed...

Gravity Man

chris
04-29-2004, 15:18
Does anyone have a photo of a hiker in mid ford? I've seen pictures of the Kennebec with the canoe in it, looking nice and placid (yes, I understand why this isn't representative of the river), but with a hiker actually in it.

Here is a photo from last summer of a semi-difficult ford in the Sierra. Will (the dude fording) is about 6'4", and the river is about 30 yards wide. The photo is from the late afternoon, when the water level is highest.

http://mypage.iu.edu/~chwillet/travel/PCT/pics/bear_creek_will.jpg

The Old Fhart
04-29-2004, 16:09
Warren seems to be under the illusion that THE way that the Kennebac was crossed in the past was to ford it. He also seems to feel that taking the ferry is stealing part of our collective "wilderness" soul and to be truly alive you have to ford the river and face death. He is trying to spread this on two threads at the same time. To correct some of the misinformation, here is my post to Warren on the "2000 Miler/split......." thread

Warren-For my first six AT traverses, there was no 'official route' ferry ford for the Kennebec due to the fact there had not been A drowning yet.
The 'official route' terminology for the canoe ferry came to be used sometime in the 90's probably more for 'liability' reasons. I'll stick with the much older 'footpath' designation.

Boats available at the Caratunk crossing for many pre-1986 AT hikers? I guess this is yet another example of an interpretation (statement of a fact) of one who was not there during this period of time (YOU) as opposed to someone who was (ME).

The older “footpath” designation was to ford the Kennebec river. My 1936 Maine A.T. guide book describes using a ferry services to the cross the Kennebec. My 1969 guide book still describes using the ferry. Check the journals of Gene espy, Dorothy Laker, Earl Shaffer, and others, and you will find the traditional way to cross the Kennebec was a boat, canoe, or raft. In 1990 I met Ed Garvey as he stepped out of the canoe on the west side of the river. The idea of fording the river is new and somehow makes some hikers feel they are more righteous than others that take the official route. I hope that you aren’t implying that these pioneers of the trail cheated by using the ferry service and you are somehow better than them for fording.

Even if fording used to be the tradition (which it wasn’t), the official route is now to take the canoe. Why would this be any different than any other relo? You don’t follow an older non-white blazed section that was used as a part of the trail years ago. If it is important to you to be a “purist” and follow every blaze, the canoe is the way to go. If you want to try and ford the Kennebec, fine, that is your choice, just don’t try to convince others it is THE WAY and they are less than worthy if they take the official route.

eyahiker
04-30-2004, 09:16
Gravity Man has it right. Knee deep is safest. As a river guide for 10 years, I can tell you that I have worked on many rivers that have dam releases, and cfs levels have to rise for many rivers in the East to even HAVE whitewater to run - another side to this is that there is almost never a huge wave/swell that precedes the water.......many of these dams were built/run by the C.A.E. and release water gradually to protect towns down stream during times when flood control is necessary.

Never been there yet, but from all the footage I've seen of this crossing, at knee high water you could safely cross, even if while you were in the middle if water would start to rise, the cfs would not be such a significant gain in that short of a time to put you in chest high water in the time it takes to cross.

So I suppose it's a matter of personal preference and fear tolerance - if indeed rising water while you are in it is fearful to you.

Keep your straps unhooked.;)

People have died/drowned in less, and those who did lose their lives in the past may not have been using the best judgement, you never know. Good thing this is brought to light here so everyone can listen to each other's input and advice, and make their own judgement based on others' experience. I know this thread is very interesting to me, and I have no experience with that crossing - but have been tossed around in plenty of rivers to understand:jump

Sgt. Rock - Good advice as well!

Tramper Al
05-17-2004, 09:41
Fording the Kennebec, aware of the risk, out of personal choice: Hiking your own hike.

Stating publicly that the risk is small and everyone should do it, despite past drownings: Incredibly irresponsible and just plain mean.

If you have something to prove, prove it to yourself. Don't put others at risk, just because you are insecure.

Canoes have been around for a few thousand years before the AT existed. This canoe has a white blaze on it. Tradition, safety, purism, take your pick. Me, I'm looking forward to meeting the ferryman.

walkin' wally
05-17-2004, 10:45
A "normal" release at Harris Dam above the forks would be between 4000 and 6000 cfs. Once in a while the dam is opened to about 8000 cfs to check the operation of the turbines. It has to be done every so often to check for vibration etc. Rafters call this the Kennebec river flush. Rafters take advantage of the releases to go down the gorge when the water is high but water can be released at other times. Harris dam is somewhat of a high head dam. The water goes through it quite fast because of the drop through the turbines from the head pressure. The water is colder than normal because it comes from the deeper part of Indian Pond. The dam can be opened remotely ( from another location ) as needed to generate power into the grid. While hiking on the AT I heard (anecdotal) of a hiker that was swept downstream last year and managed to snag a point of land on the north side. If he had missed that point, by his own admission, that would have been it as he said he was quite tired. I don't know if he recovered his pack. The ford that people use upstream is not the same depth all the way acoss at low water. From what I have seen while fishing in the area there is no wall of water that comes down the river it just rises quickly and steadily. There are occaisional releases from the Flagstaff dam that can affect the level somewhat too from the dead river.
I used the ferry when I crossed ( just my choice ) and I am glad Steve is back on the job he is a great guy. He help me spot my vehicle so I could do a section hike from the Crockers.

Twofiddy
06-20-2004, 17:41
In the early AM, in August, during a period of normal precip, how high/fast is the Kennedbec? Waist? Knee? Of course, everything depends, but in a normal state, is the Kennebec really that bad of a ford to require a boat to get across?

If you know anything at all about river current, say you paddle white water, or swim, or float fish in a canoe on a river, then you probably have the smarts to FORD.

The number creeps to close to double digits now of the number of people that I have known that have drown in rivers. It is a scary thought. A few of those people drown because they were swimming after gear that the river was washing away from them.

If you decide to Ford the river, make sure that you are wearing appropriate clothing and shoes to swim. In my opinion that means wearing only swimming trunks and the only kind of shoes that I would wear would be Chaco or Teva Sandals, or slides like Crocs. That way if you get washed away you can swim at your best. It is hard to swim with boots on. Further more make sure that you are shoulder slinging your pack on one shoulder so that you can quickly toss it if get in trouble. Dont worry about a few hundred dollars worth of gear. It can all be replaced you can not.

Happy Fording!!!


PS...
I rode the Ferry!!
I Forded the Cascade Brook leaving Lonesome Lake Hut in the Whites!! I did not know that just a few hundred yards down stream there was a 50 foot water fall. That thing was like a torrent. It was literally a verticle wall of water many feet above the shore line where I crossed. I knew how to swim and how to Ford properly but DAMN was that a dangerous challenge.

Folks who crossed the next day and caught me in Gorham said that it was running not harder than a trickle just 12 hours after I crossed.

FLASH FLOODING IS AMAZING!!

weary
06-21-2004, 10:22
A few years ago I was working on the trail in the rain just south of the East Branch of the Piscataquis River, a few miles south of Monson, when a south bound girl came walking by barefoot, and without a pack.

The East Branch usually is no more than knee high, sometimes it takes just a couple of rock hops to cross the 50 feet. But it was waist deep that day. Her question: "Do you know where might my pack might have come ashore?" I had no useful answer.

A few seconds later three more hikers showed up, dripping water.

Streams in Maine can be quite difficult, especially in the spring and after heavy rains. They rise quickly. But just as quickly subside. When things look too difficult, I usually wander upstream in hopes of finding a wider and more tranquil crossing.

If none are apparent I've found that often just waiting a few hours or setting up camp for a night results in better crossing conditions.

My practice for difficult crossings is to remove my socks, but put my boots back on. I need solid boots to maneuver over rocks and sunken logs. Once across, I pour the water out of boots and put my boots and socks back on. If it's a dry day my boots usually dry out within a few miles.

Weary

Pencil Pusher
06-29-2004, 19:18
Are the trees high enough, or on elevated ground close enough to the river? Maybe set up a zip line and have fun on the river crossing:D

Alligator
06-29-2004, 20:03
It's pretty wide there, I don't think there is enough height available. Would be cool.

Pencil Pusher
07-20-2004, 22:35
So what could hikers bring as a token of appreciation for the ferry man? Hypothetically typing, of course. Like maybe ferry man smells smelly hiker from a mile away and knows he's a thru. Thru hiker offers up backpack as security if ferry dude will let him paddle the hikers back and forth for the day.

attroll
07-21-2004, 00:07
The Ferryman will not let you paddle hikers back and forth for the day to help him out. I am sure he would love to have you do that. But you have to be a registered guide to do this. It would alos not be covered under his insurance if something went wrong. He in the process of training a couple others do do this now so that he has help.

Pencil Pusher
07-21-2004, 01:00
It's probably all for the better. No point in offering to paddle if you've never done it before.

ferryman
10-23-2004, 14:58
The River Ferry Service carried 1,295 people with their packs across the Kennebec River between Carrying Place Township and the town of Caratunk from May 7 until Oct 18, 2004. The month of September placed 205 of the 488 northbound thru-hikers crossing the river, while the month of June placed 75 southbound thru-hikers of the approximately 163 hikers headed to Georgia. Among the general hiking public, 823 hikers went south to north and only 472 hikers went from north to south. The hiking summary will get some closer looks as we pour over the individual forms and ferry person's data entries for all hikers who took the ferry across the Kennebec River in 2004. But for now, we are thankful for all the help we received during the course of the year from our hiking friends, trail magic friends and those who maintain this wonderful place we call the Appalachian Trail. Yours, Steve 'ferryman' Longley

Jack Tarlin
10-23-2004, 16:06
Steve---

Thanx for the update, and also for your service on the river. Hope to see you back out there next year!

Tramper Al
10-23-2004, 16:23
So, (488+163)/1295 = 50.2% of ferry users were self-declared thru hikers? Then the remainder of the general hiking public comprised 49.8% of passengers? Would everyone consider this half as section hikers? Interesting.
Steve, are you happy taking an AT dayhiker southbound in the morning, then back northbound in the afternoon, or is this considered an abuse of the service? Just curious.
Thanks to the Ferryman.

weary
10-23-2004, 22:05
So, (488+163)/1295 = 50.2% of ferry users were self-declared thru hikers? Then the remainder of the general hiking public comprised 49.8% of passengers? Would everyone consider this half as section hikers? Interesting.
Steve, are you happy taking an AT dayhiker southbound in the morning, then back northbound in the afternoon, or is this considered an abuse of the service? Just curious.
Thanks to the Ferryman.

I'll let Ferryman's statistics speak for themselves when they are available. But I doubt if many day hikers cross the Kennebec twice in one day. There's nothing on either side of the river that is particularly interesting -- aside from the Pierce Pond Camp pancakes. Most of us come in from the Long Falls Dam Road north of Bigelow, or are heading south from Monson, heading to Bigelow.

Aside from these speculations, ATC sets specific hours for the ferry to operate. In terms of the operator it shouldn't really matter how many people cross per day, providing everyone manages to get across within the designated hours.

The legitimate complaints, if any, should probably be from thru hikers who may be delayed by any crush of frivolous day hikers -- if that is indeed a problem.

Weary

The Old Fhart
10-24-2004, 00:29
When I was finishing my section hike in 1990 I hiked north to the Kennebec one weekend trip then the next weekend hiked from Monson south to the Kennebec. To officially complete that section of the A.T. I had to take the canoe south then wait while Ed Garvey crossed before I recrossed the river north to complete that section. There was no reason to take my pack across and back so I probably am one of the few people who has slackpacked the Kennebec. Having previously waded the river I can tell you the canoe is much safer and easier.

Tramper Al
10-24-2004, 00:53
I'll let Ferryman's statistics speak for themselves when they are available. But I doubt if many day hikers cross the Kennebec twice in one day. There's nothing on either side of the river that is particularly interesting -- aside from the Pierce Pond Camp pancakes. Most of us come in from the Long Falls Dam Road north of Bigelow, or are heading south from Monson, heading to Bigelow.

Aside from these speculations, ATC sets specific hours for the ferry to operate. In terms of the operator it shouldn't really matter how many people cross per day, providing everyone manages to get across within the designated hours.
Weary
Yes, yes, I know all that. I wasn't really asking it it was interesting or common. I was actually asking Steve if he minded.



The legitimate complaints, if any, should probably be from thru hikers who may be delayed by any crush of frivolous day hikers -- if that is indeed a problem.
Weary
Yes, yes. Thru hikers are entitled, day hikers are an annoyance. I'm glad 'most of us' don't feel this way.

Tramper Al
10-24-2004, 00:54
To officially complete that section of the A.T. I had to take the canoe south then wait while Ed Garvey crossed before I recrossed the river north to complete that section.
Thanks, O.F., that's helpful.

TJ aka Teej
10-24-2004, 09:02
The River Ferry Service carried 1,295 people with their packs across the Kennebec River between Carrying Place Township and the town of Caratunk from May 7 until Oct 18, 2004.
Many thanks, Steve! Have a safe and restful winter!

Teej

Askus3
10-24-2004, 09:59
I totally disagree with Weary as far as what is just south of the Kennebec River along the AT. The three spur trails to waterfalls and cascades of all sizes and that whole stretch of the AT parallel to the north bank of Pierce Pond Stream I thought was of exceptional beauty. Then after 5 miles of this extraordinary trail you come to the tranquil Pierce Pond. There is much more to the AT experience than mountains and food! I think a dayhike from 201 to Pierce pond and back and a walk along the spur trails in that area is a great way to spend a day. And nobody should belittled for taking a hike in the woods be it 5 miles to 2000+ miles. See photo (http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5304/password/0/sort/3/cat/500/page/5) to see a sample of what is within a couple of miles of the ferry.

Magic City
10-24-2004, 15:43
I find it strange to find such strong feelings about an individual's decision to ford the river or take the ferry. We make decisions every day, some of them more dificult or dangerous than others. While it may be reasonable to tell me that I've made a foolish decision, it seems rather strange for anyone to get angry about it.

To someone who has never done any hiking, thru-hiking from Georgia to Maine might seem to be a foolish, even a dangerous idea, but it's nothing for anyone else to be angry about.

Warn them of the dangers, if you must, but let people make their own decisions about how they want to cross the Kennebec.

I have never thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail, but I've crossed rivers wider and deeper and more rapid than the Kennebec when I was ten; and yes, some of them had hydroelectric dams on them, too. I was washed downstream about seven miles once, but I survived.

My parents would have been upset with me had they known, but newbie thru-hikers are not children and you haven't become their parents just because you've made the hike once before.

Taken to the extreme, this attitude will result in an Appalachian Trail where every potential danger has been taken care of, clearly marked, or restricted.

"Better put fences around them rocks! What if someone stepped off of one of them?"

weary
10-24-2004, 15:45
I totally disagree with Weary as far as what is just south of the Kennebec River along the AT. The three spur trails to waterfalls and cascades of all sizes and that whole stretch of the AT parallel to the north bank of Pierce Pond Stream I thought was of exceptional beauty. Then after 5 miles of this extraordinary trail you come to the tranquil Pierce Pond. There is much more to the AT experience than mountains and food! I think a dayhike from 201 to Pierce pond and back and a walk along the spur trails in that area is a great way to spend a day. And nobody should belittled for taking a hike in the woods be it 5 miles to 2000+ miles. See photo (http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5304/password/0/sort/3/cat/500/page/5) to see a sample of what is within a couple of miles of the ferry.

You don't disagree with me. I agree totally. I just think that it is not the kind of thing that many day hikers will take a ferry across the river to see, especially since there is a gravel road leading to near the trail without the hassle of a ferry.

I've been preaching for years that there is much more to the AT experience than "mountains and food." Askus, thanks for joining the fight.

Weary

TJ aka Teej
01-20-2005, 08:57
Steve the Ferryman has posted the final hiker summeries from the 2004 Kennebec Ferry on his website: http://www.riversandtrails.com/


Month -Hikers -N-S --S-N --Day -Wkd Long D ME-GA GA-ME
May ----19 ---11 ----8 -----0 ---6 ---13 -----0 ------0
June ---121 ---91 ---30 ----4 ---7 ---110 ---75 -----14
July ----324 --168 ---156 --13 --16---295 ---63 -----64
Aug ----432 --125 ---307 --24 --24 --384 ---18 ----160
Sept ---341 --65 ----276 --14 --12---315 ----7 ----205
Oct ----58 ---12 ----46 ----2 ---0 ---56 -----0 -----45
Total -1,295 -472 ---823 ---57 --65 -1,173 --163 ---488

The figures are easier to read in frames on Steve's webpage.

The Solemates
01-21-2005, 11:25
We were 2 of the 14 in June. :)

Footslogger
01-21-2005, 11:30
Allowing for the few daredevils each year who ford/swim accross (and the few hikers who drop off between the Kennebec and Katahdin), it should be possible to correlate these number with that of the ATC in determining how many people made it all the way ....Yes, No ??

'Slogger
AT 2003

weary
01-21-2005, 13:02
Allowing for the few daredevils each year who ford/swim accross (and the few hikers who drop off between the Kennebec and Katahdin), it should be possible to correlate these number with that of the ATC in determining how many people made it all the way ....Yes, No ??
'Slogger AT 2003
Probably no. One rarely goes into minute details when being asked a question on the banks of a river, nor do the questions even have categories for the way many hike. But many people who walk most of the way between Springer and Katahdin don't register as 2,000 milers because, like me, they didn't hike the whole distance in accordance with the 2,000 miler patch rules.

I don't recall being asked when I crossed the river in '93. But I certainly would have been in the Ga-Me, northbound category. Having spent more than five months on the trail when I reached the Kennebec, I certainly didn't think of myself as a "section" hiker. And I was unsure at that point whether I would go back that fall and complete Massachusetts and Connecticut (something I finally did two years later).

Weary

Lone Wolf
01-21-2005, 13:04
There's nothing daredevilish about fording the Kennebec. It's easy actually.

Footslogger
01-21-2005, 13:07
There's nothing daredevilish about fording the Kennebec. It's easy actually.==========================
Maybe ...but haven't some died trying ?? ...or at least got washed downstream and had to be plucked out by rescuers ??

'Slogger

Lone Wolf
01-21-2005, 13:12
20 years or so ago an older lady drowned I guess. You just gotta do it bright and early.

weary
01-21-2005, 13:22
There's nothing daredevilish about fording the Kennebec. It's easy actually.
Does anyone know how come a thru hiker drowned 20 years ago crossing an easy river? The upstream hydroelectric turbines provide peaking power, i.e. the dams are opened only when the demand for energy exceeds the ability of base load generating plants to provide electricity.

In the summer that occurs most often when air conditioners are turned on during the heat of a day. When did the dead hiker make her attempt?

Having forded many streams, I am quite sure that fording the Kennebec would not be "easy" for me. I've never had a great sense of balance and it somehow hasn't gotten better even with three-quarters century of practice.

Weary

Lone Wolf
01-21-2005, 13:27
Couldn't swim? Inhaling water would do it.

The Solemates
01-21-2005, 13:28
Does anyone know how come a thru hiker drowned 20 years ago crossing an easy river?

Obviously because she was doing something over her skill level/experience. Dont bash someone if they have no problem crossing some river. Let em do it.

I wanted to swim because we got there around 3PM, but my wife didnt. So I did the kind thing and waited...and waited...and waited. But Wolf's right, its not that formidable of a river. Easy to cross when the water is low. Ive crossed rivers swifter and deeper than that before.

TJ aka Teej
01-21-2005, 17:13
20 years or so ago an older lady drowned I guess.
Alice Ference was in her late 40s when she lost her life fording the Kennebec. The '86 Philosopher's Guide was dedicated to her memory, and an ATC/MATC ferry service was established to replace the traditional but unreliable ferry services between Caratunk and the Carrying Place. Her family had something to do with building the Churchill Scott shelter in Vermont a few years ago.

weary
01-21-2005, 17:30
Dont bash someone if they have no problem crossing some river. Let em do it. .
I didn't bash anyone for fording the Kennebec. I did sort of hint that to claim it's easy in a forum advising new long distance hikers may not be wise.

Every guide to the trail for the past 70 years has warned of the danger involved in fording the Kennebec. MATC and ATC have used scarce funds for the past 20 years to provide a ferry service because the people who know the river best think it dangerous.

I think that those who think otherwise have a perfect right to do whatever they want. They even have a right to say, "I found the crossing easy." But I think it irresponsible for some one living 1,000 miles from the river to tell hikers that the crossing is "easy," thus implying that MATC, ATC and a score of Maine guide book editors are all wrong, and that most anyone can ford the river without a second thought.

Weary

Lone Wolf
01-21-2005, 17:33
Well it is easy given the right conditions.

Footslogger
01-21-2005, 17:39
I took the ferry in 2003 and I'm darn glad I did. A young fella named Jeremy was doing the shuttling that year. I got to the river bank around 4:30 (I had called in advance for a pick-up that late in the afternoon). The river was swollen and running fast. It took both of us paddling to crab accross the river and make it to the take out point.

I don't have the experience of seeing the Kennebec when it is low and slow so who knows ...maybe I'd try and ford it too, under those conditions.

'Slogger
AT 2003