View Full Version : 1936 Boy Scout Thru Hike
There was mention of the 1936 Boy Scout Thru hike (or claim of a thru hike depending who you listen to) in another thread.
Here is a copy of the ATN Article wich gave rise to this wonderful story/tall tale.
_______________________________________
Appalachian Trailway News, November/December 1994
The Summer of 1936: A flickering memory recalls a thru-hike by Bronx Scouts
In 1936, a year before the Appalachian Trail was completed as one
continuos, unbroken footpath, six Boy Scouts from the New York City
area followed the route from Maine to Georgia. It was a 121-day
odyssey into manhood and its significance as perhaps the first
thru-hike of the A.T. wasn't realized until recently by one of the
participants. (Earl Shaffer is credited as the first person to
thru-hike the Trail as a completed footpath. His solo hike was in
1948.)
It was only in the last year that Max Gordon became aware that the
Appalachian Trail Conference still existed. An ATC membership
solicitation he received stirred fading memories. He responded by
joining ATC and then searching through boxes of old photos and
mementos. Slowly, he was able to weave together bits and pieces of
the summer of '36 when he and five other teen-aged Scouts made their
journey on the Appalachian Trail.
The boys were members of Scout Troop 257 in the Bronx at a time when
Harry T. (Pop) O'Grady, a leader in the area Scout council, suggested
that a local veterans group sponsor an A.T. hike from Maine to
Georgia.
Mr. O'Grady "may have been some kind of entrepreneur ... Whenever
there was a problem in Scouting, he was called in. He was a very
persuasive person. He even went to my school principal and talked him
into letting me out early enough in June to go on the hike. Pop
always seemed to be there for us," recalls Mr. Gordon, whose father
had died four months before he was born.
The veterans, led by a Mr. Grabow, used their World War I bonuses to
provide equipment and expenses for the trip, and they met the hikers
at various points along the Trail to replenish their supplies.
"One of the veterans had a truck, and it was our life-line," says Mr.
Gordon. Since the support vehicle couldn't reach many parts of the
Trail, the boys carried up to two weeks worth of provisions between
visits.
"We were poor kids. We couldn't have done it without them," he says.
"My mother made my sleeping bag, and it wasn't fancy at all, no
feathers, just a couple of blankets sewn together. I could pull part
of it over my head to keep the dew off..., and we used ponchos when
it rained. Most of the time we slept out in the open rather than in
shelters." The boys had boots from L.L. Bean, and Mr. Gordon recalls
that his soles finally wore out somewhere in North Carolina.
Most of the boys were 16 or 17 years old. At 15, Mr. Gordon was the
youngest and, because of his first-aid training, "was the doctor of
the hike." He doesn't recall any serious medical problems along the
way, and all six completed the hike together.
The older boys charted the course (from maps provided by the
veterans) and led the way. The fact that he walked fifth or sixth in
line was a real blessing in Maine, Mr. Gordon recalls. "There was
snow most of the way through Maine, and the older boys had a harder
time because they were breaking trail. I just followed on their
snow-packed tracks."
It took two weeks for the boys to reach New Hampshire, and, after
changing clothes and some gear, they started out again. They were a
day late meeting their support truck in Adams, Mass., "but the men
didn't seem to mind."
The next section, south through New York, "was very enjoyable because
we were in our own backyard." he says. The boys had often day-hiked
in Harriman State Park. Pop O'Grady and the veterans met the boys at
Bear Mountain Bridge and kept them there a day, to celebrate, rest
and provide a photo opportunity.
"I think Pop hoped to use our hike as some sort of promotion," Mr.
Gordon recalls.
The hike continued, but the memories are scant. Mr. Gordon remembers
the scenery in Virginia's Shenandoah National Park "being the most
impressive since Maine," but, other than that, the mid-Atlantic A.T.
is a blur.
All but three miles of the 2,054-mile Trail had been cleared and
blazed as of 1936: a one-mile stretch between Davenport Gap and the
Big Pigeon River in Tennessee and a two-mile link between Spaulding
and Sugarloaf mountains in Maine. The Maine section was the last to
be completed, and the Trail was opened as an unbroken footpath on
August 14, 1937.
"There were times we didn't know if we were on the Trail, and we had
to feel our way," Mr. Gordon recalls.
"It is difficult to remember many details so many years ago," he
says. He barely remembers the southern end of the hike. He fingers a
Scottish military pin, given to him by a man he met while hiking in
the Carolinas - "His name was Mr. James McQueen and his daughter,
Flora, was with him. Do you think I could ever find him?" The pin
remains his only keepsake of the hike.
Mr. Gordon recalls the easy climb without a backpack up Mt.
Oglethorpe, Ga. (the southern terminus until 1955). The truck was
waiting for the boys to complete the Trail and take them to Atlanta
before heading home.
Two of the boys "had been ready to quit at the start because of the
snow and drifts." but they stuck it our. Over all, it had been a
pleasant summer, and, except for minor arguments that occasionally
erupted among the boys, the most disagreeable time was "hiking in
really hot weather." Mr. Gordon recalls.
"At the time, we really didn't know what a feat this had been." Mr.
Gordon says. But, back in school and Scouting, he says the boys found
they had to live up to newly acquired reputations. His older brother,
Mandel, recently recalled that his sibling had lacked the
self-confidence needed to be a leader. But, "after the hike, that
fear seemed to have vanished," Max Gordon remembers. "Other boys and
girls turned to me for leadership. The hike had given me 'status',
and it was respected by the teachers. It was a very good feeling."
Slowly and one by one, as the boys graduated, they drifted apart.
Many, like Mr. Gordon, were active in different branches of the
service during World War II. Mr. Gordon recalls that one boy in the
group, Louis Zisk, was a Marine who was killed during the was.
Another in the group, Seymour Dorfman, who died only a couple of
years ago, "was my best friend for 42 years," he adds. Mr. Dorfman
served in the Army in North Africa and Italy during World War II.
Mr. Gordon can recall only a nickname or two about the other three
boys, and he suspects that he many be the only one left.
If Pop O'Grady planned to turn the hike into a publicity campaign in
behalf of Scouting, it never materialized, Mr. Gordon says. He had
heard, long ago, that Mr. O'Grady left Scouting during the was and
had become head of a Catholic youth organization of the West Coast.
As for Mr. Gordon, now 73 and in good health, he has so far served 60
years with the Boy Scouts and has received some of the organization's
highest honors, including the Wood Badge (Jan. 18, 1958) and the
Silver Beaver (June 5, 1961). He was personally cited by Presidents
Dwight D. Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy. In May 1960, he was the
first Scout in the nation to receive the Shofar Award from the Jewish
Committee on Scouting.
He worked at the Bronx Botanical Gardens and the Brooklyn Navy Yard
before joining the Navy and serving with the Seabees in the Pacific
during the war. Afterward, he settled back into life in the Bronx
neighborhood of his bride, Lilian. He recalls being home only two
weekends the first year he was a Scout leader. Most of the time, the
Scouts were out on day and weekend hikes.
Often he was back on the A.T. Later, when he was in his 30s, his
Explorer Troop challenged him to a 72-mile A.T. hike southward from
Kent, Conn. Fourteen started the marathon hike, and, 18 hours later,
Mr. Gordon and three Scouts completed the trek. He says he'll never
forget how much his muscles tightened up after sitting briefly in a
car following that hike.
When he first started dating his wife-to-be, he recalls "wanting to
make sure she could walk. So we took a five-mile hike on the A.T.,
and she did pretty well, considering she was wearing high heels."
A seasonal Christmas-time job with the post office turned into a
career. Mr. Gordon was a clerk for 18 years in New York City and the
vicinity, after which time he began earning bonuses for suggestions
that worked. As a result, he was promoted so much that, by the time
he retired at age 57, he was a postal operations analyst responsible
for all offices from Maine to northern New Jersey and including the
West Indies.
Mr. Gordon had built a chalet in Dingmans Ferry, Pa., and the couple
retired there briefly before moving to northcentral Florida. In the
15 years they've been in Beverly Hills, Fla., Mr. Gordon has been
involved with the volunteer fire department and several fraternal
organizations and spent nine year putting records together for the
local (Citrus County) historical society. And, he says, he has never
stopped hiking.
One of the most vivid memories he has taken with him for the past 58
years is the day the Scouts were at Franconia Notch in New Hampshire.
"We about froze to death. It was nine degrees that morning," Mr.
Gordon recalls. "In the city, you don't get the mist you get in the
woods. But, that morning, the woods felt like another world. Then,
the overpowering sensation of reaching up on those tall mountains,
reaching up as if a man could put his hand out and touch -- I don't
know, it's a real sense of religion you never forget as long as you
live."
The following American (Sioux) Indian prayer is a tribute to that
experience, Mr. Gordon feels. He learned it in Scouting, and for
years it's been part of his life. He handily pronounces the Lakota
words: "Wakonda They Thu Wapathin A To-Hey."
Drawing back on his A.T. experience as a 15-year-old boy who was
"just having a good time," he offers a literal translation --"Great
Spirit, a needy one stands before thee; I who speak am he." The
message, for Mr. Gordon, is not in the English interpretation, but
from the feeling of the Lakota words.
Judy Jenner
budforester
01-05-2009, 21:51
Wow, thanks for sharing that!
waywardfool
01-05-2009, 23:02
Back in the dark ages of the Internet, I remember getting an email (maybe it was on usenet) where somebody was trying to stir up a Boy Scout "thru-hike in a week". I don't think it ever got off the ground...but the idea was to get Scout troops signed up to section hike the AT during a specific week in the summer, with the goal being the entire AT being section-hiked in a weeks time by all the various Scout troops.
I'm just now getting back into scouting. I got my Eagle Scout in 1988 and just became the Asst. Cubmaster for my 7 y/o's pack and plan to move on as he does. I am chomping at the bit to take a scout troop back to Philmont. I'm sure to bring scouts on the AT, but trust me, they won't be of the loud misbehaving type.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 16:25
Unless I'm very much mistaken, this hike has never been adequately documented and there remains great skepticism over whether or not it actually took place or was, in fact, completed.
The BSA have never been able to document or verify it, despite the fact that it was a Scout enterprise, and one would think that they'd be the first people interested in recognizing and promoting this journey.
The ATC has also not acknowledged or recognized it.
The ATC has also not acknowledged or recognized it.
False. They are listed as 2000 milers.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 16:35
Listed where?
An examination of the ATC's own website reveals NO mention of the 1936 Boy Scout hike and credits Earl Shaffer as the first thru-hiker.
If the ATC recognizes the validity of 1936 Boy Scout hike, one certainly wouldn't know this from the "history" page of their own website.
Listed where?
An examination of the ATC's own website reveals NO mention of the 1936 Boy Scout hike and credits Earl Shaffer as the first thru-hiker.
If the ATC recognizes the validity of 1936 Boy Scout hike, one certainly wouldn't know this from the "history" page of their own website.
Earl is credited as the first "to report" a thru-hike. The scouts are part of the 8 hikers listed as 2000 milers in the 1930s.
Earl is credited as the first "to report" a thru-hike. The scouts are part of the 8 hikers listed as 2000 milers in the 1930s.
Yeah, but 2000-milers are necessarily thru-hikers. Myron Avery is the 1st to complete the trail if I'm not mistaken.
I find it hard to believe that these teenagers averaged 17 or 18 miles a day before there was light weight gear. The scout manuals of the day advised using heavy boots, bringing an axe, a shovel, steel pots and pans etc.
Also, the gentleman is claiming that these boys completed the trail 3 days quicker than Earl Shaffer. Earl was about 30 years old when he walked it and was in excellent shape from being a soldier in WWII. Doesn't seem likely that 15 to 17 year olds from the Bronx would have even a fraction of the conditioning needed to complete a thru hike in that amount of time.
Last, I haven't been able to find any press info on the hike. When Earl did it in 1948 it was big news. A couple of newspapers wrote about it. The completed trip would have been big news in 1936 as well.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 17:08
Actually, Mowgli, on its website, the ATC lists just 4 people as having completed the Trail in 1936, and one of them was Myron Avery. In that the Scouts who finished the Trail were allegedly hiking in a group of six, how do you surmise that they were reported as having finished?
Actually, Mowgli, on its website, the ATC lists just 4 people as having completed the Trail in 1936, and one of them was Myron Avery. In that the Scouts who finished the Trail were allegedly hiking in a group of six, how do you surmise that they were reported as having finished?
Call ATC if you don't wanna take my word for it. The names of some of the scouts were lost to the ages. That's why the numbers are off.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 17:13
Arizona: You raised some excellent points. I also find it astonishing that the Boy Scouts themselves have never attempted to capitalize on this "achievement". They have made no attempt to do so overt the years, even after all of the publicity surrounding Mr. Shaffer's death in May, 2002. If there was anything remotely resembling proof of this earlier hike, the national Scouts would have been all over it.
I also just re-read the post that started this thread. I find it astonishing that the subject of the article couldn't remember the names of three of his partners, despite their being together for months and months.
In short, until I see better documentation of this episode, I will side with the ATC and others, who, with good reason, credit Earl Shaffer for achieving the first thru-hike of the A.T.
OK..let's take a step back.
It was an elderly gentleman who may or may not have recalled corrrecly an adventure as a boyscout at a much earlier age.
I suspect the ATC, rather than interrogate this elderly man simply did what they do with any thru-hiker from about 1980 on: Take it at face value.
Did the scouts do this thru-hike? Doubtful.
Would I want to call an old man to the carpet, interrogate him and try to dig up material from 70 yrs ago? Heck no.
It is a compromise. One that allows what could be a divisive issue be handled a bit more easily.
In the end, it probably does not matter too much. :)
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 17:16
I'll certainly get in touch with ATC.
But if Mowgli is right, and the ATC acknowledges this hike as having actually taken place, then why is there absolutely no mention of it on their website, while there is plenty of ink on Mr. Shaffer?
The answer is simple: The ATC acknowledges that there is no proof that this ever took place. It is undocumented and un-verified. If the ATC had reasons to believe in the veracity of the 1936 claimants, then they'd have no problem saying so publicly.
The fact that they haven't done so speaks volumes.
Like I said elsewhere, I'm 47 and can remember the name of only one of my fellow scouts - Tim Metz. We met regularly for a couple of years, but I can't remember anyone elses name for the life of me. Scratch that. Ernie Gerke. I remember two scouts from perhaps a dozen. I also have a hard time remembering the names of people I hiked the AT with only 9 years ago.
When Max Gordon was interviewed by Judy Jenner, it had been almost 60 years since the hike. He was an old man with faded memories. He has since passed away.
Some may choose not to believe Max and the other scouts made the trek. I'm not one of them. Personally, I'm glad ATC recognized them. It's no slap at Earl. His achievement remains remarkable.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 17:29
If the ATC "recognized" them, then why is there absolutely no mention of their alleged achievement on the ATC's own website? If they actually believed in the veracity of this Trail, you'd think that the 1936 hikers would feature a bit more prominently.
But they not only don't feature prominently.
They're not featured or cited at all.
Some "recognition."
Seems to me that accepting a "report" at face value is one thing, but providing formal acknowledgment and recognition is another.
If the ATC "recognized" them, then why is there absolutely no mention of their alleged achievement on the ATC's own website? If they actually believed in the veracity of this Trail, you'd think that the 1936 hikers would feature a bit more prominently.
But they not only don't feature prominently.
They're not featured or cited at all.
Some "recognition."
Seems to me that accepting a "report" at face value is one thing, but providing formal acknowledgment and recognition is another.
I thought you were going to call ATC to see if in fact Max Gordon is listed as a 2000-miler?
Fact is, this is awkward for ATC. But history is history, even if it challenges long held beliefs. As someone interested in history, you should understand that more than most.
2000-miler list from 2000. Page 21 in the link below.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN00May.pdf
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 17:46
Mowgli:
I've written Laurie Potteiger at ATC and have no doubt that we'll be hearing from her shortly.
2000-miler list from 2000. Page 21 in the link below.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN00May.pdf
Can you get all the Trailway News/Journey's on the website?
I need to re-up specially since I got the ATC Visa now. ;)
I donno Sly. It's kinda cool looking at some of the old editions though.
I also just re-read the post that started this thread. I find it astonishing that the subject of the article couldn't remember the names of three of his partners, despite their being together for months and months.
To be fair, this doesn't surprise me at all... there are kids I went to high school with for 4 years who, not only do I not remember their names, I don't even recognize their faces when shown old photos. And I'm a young man, not a guy in his 80's with a lifetime of memories to sift through.
Not saying one way or the other about the hike, they could have easily done it or not done it... I have no way of knowing (again, to be fair, just like I have no way of knowing about *any* hiker the ATC recognizes as a 2000 miler). Just saying not remembering their names doesn't really surprise me.
Lone Wolf
01-07-2009, 18:08
so earl is like the 9th or 10th 2000 miler. hmmmm. ain't that sumthin' :-?
so earl is like the 9th or 10th 2000 miler. hmmmm. ain't that sumthin' :-?
Earl never claimed anything about being the first 2,000 miler. Just that he was the first to claim to have done the 2,000 miles in one hiking season. His accomplishment was greeted with great skepticism by ATC. The then AT "conference," later conservancy. interviewed him many times in an attempt to find evidence to the contrary.
Even after relenting and agreeing that Earl had done what he had said he had done, ATC refused to publish his book, detailing his "north with spring" walk. So Earl had his account of the trail typed on what looks to me like what was then a revolutionary IBM typewriter that allowed type that looks a bit like hand writing, and had the pages printed, typos and all.
Earl then assembled the pages in a volume he bound himself. It quickly became a collectors item, and ATC relented and did a commercial version, which many years later remains an AT trail best seller.
I have one of the few copies of Earl's home grown version. And like the alleged Boy Scout who claimed he had preceeded Earl by 12 years, some of the details have become fuzzy over the years. I had assumed for years that I had purchased my copy at the 1979 ATC conference held at Sugarloaf in Maine in 1979. But then I looked and saw that my copy was dated several years later. Where I got it remains, therefore, a mystery. But it remains one of my favorite acquisitions.
I think the skepticism about the Scouts, stems in part, from the intensive scrutiny that Earl had to undergo, and the lax investigation of the prior claim submitted to ATC 45 years later.
Weary, ATC honorary life member.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 19:04
Thanx for providing some of the details, Weary.
But I dunno if I'd call ATC's investigation of the Scouts "lax".
I'm not sure there was much investigation, period.
Hikerhead
01-07-2009, 19:13
I too think it's strange that with all the publicity that Earl recieved that they didn't speak up and say that they were the first to hike it. Surely, while they were still young and still had their facilities and probably still into hiking/being in the outdoors they would have heard about Earl. I smell a rat, or a bunch or rats.
I have one of the few copies of Earl's home grown version. And like the alleged Boy Scout who claimed he had preceeded Earl by 12 years, some of the details have become fuzzy over the years. I had assumed for years that I had purchased my copy at the 1979 ATC conference held at Sugarloaf in Maine in 1979. But then I looked and saw that my copy was dated several years later. Where I got it remains, therefore, a mystery. But it remains one of my favorite acquisitions.
Weary, ATC honorary life member.[/QUOTE]
I know where you got it, I loaned it to ya. When you gonna send it back?:D:D:D
Clyde
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 19:26
I also find it remarkable that no mention of this was made in the Spring of 2002.
Earl's death made national news; one can read his obituary on-line at dozens of addresses. There was a lengthy obit in the New York Times which presumably was widely seen and read in New Jersey.
Surely, if anyone read about Earl's passing in '02 and saw how he was universally described (i.e. as the first A.T. thru-hiker), well one would think that if anyone knew or could prove that the truth was otherwise, well one would think they'd have immediately come forward. I also find it astounding that the BSA, either on a state or national level, never chose to publicize this hike or made any attempt to get the 1936 Scouts formally "recognized" or acknowledged.
It seems to me the reasons for this are obvious:
Like the ATC, they didn't feel that the '36 hike had been properly documented or remotely verified.
And it hasn't been as of this writing, either.
Like the ATC, they didn't feel that the '36 hike had been properly documented or remotely verified.
And it hasn't been as of this writing, either.
Allow me to post the list of 2000 milers again from the May - June 2000 edition of Appalachian Trailway News. See page 21 in the link below.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN00May.pdf
Three of the scouts (Max Gorden, Seymour Dorfman and Louis Zisk) all remain on ATC's 2000-miler list to this day. So in the interest of accuracy, let me point out that Jack's statement above is not factually correct.
Cookerhiker
01-07-2009, 19:53
One of the most non-credible aspects is starting in Maine and reaching NH in 2 weeks. I've heard that the Trail was easier in those days i.e. not up as many mountains but Gordon's accounts speaks of Maine's ardousness because of pushing through snow. I'll leave it to New Englanders to comment on how realistic it is for heavy snow in June to slow down hikers; assuming it was so, and considering the trail was easier, still how could they have possibly finished Maine in 2 weeks?
OK, it sounds liked they backpacked and covered a lot of AT miles over several months but so do blue and yellow blazers. It's an accomplishment and an interesting if not heartwarming story. But I doubt this troop really hiked the entirety of the AT. Others have referred to the inquisition that Earl underwent (I believed he called a "charming but thorough cross-examination") from Jean Stephenson and Myron Avery. It seems to me that these ATC folks were on top of all Trail-related things during those times - I can't imagine that this alleged hike didn't come to their attention.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 19:56
Hey, Mowgli.
Why bother to quote me if you don't bother to read what I actually said?
No, I don't think the ATC feels that the '36 hike has been documented or verified, which is the main reason they make no mention of it on their website.
The fact that someone's name might appear on the 2,000 miler's list means only that someone reported a hike to Harpers Ferry.
It certainly does not mean that the journey took place.
By including those three names on their list, that does not mean that the ATC has been properly documented or remotely verified.
So "Jack's statement" that you quoted is NOT factually incorrect. The 1936 hike is indeed undocumented, unproven, and has not been proven or verified.
I have no doubt that when we hear from someone at the ATC, my comments will be vindicated. Plain and simply, if the ATC had indeed seen and examined sufficient documentation to prove that this hike actually took place and was completed, then I suspect that they'd have shared this fascinating information with us.
Which they decidedly haven't done.
Interesting thread. Couldn't find a reference on the BSA national site, but found this on wikipedia... anyone from ALDHA following this?
1948, Earl Shaffer of York, Pennsylvania, brought a great deal of attention to the project by completing the first documented thru-hike. (In 1994, a story appeared in the Appalachian Trailway News describing a 121-day Maine to Georgia thru-hike in 1936 by six Boy Scouts from the Bronx.[6] The story has been accepted by some individual members of ALDHA,[7] though a great deal of doubt has also been expressed;[8] this earlier thru-hike has never been verified or accepted by any responsible hiking organization or group; therefore, Shaffer's 1948 journey is still universally recognized as the first A.T. thru-hike.) Later, Shaffer also completed the first north-to-south thru-hike (all documented thru-hikes before that had been south-to-north).[9] In 1998 Mr. Shaffer, nearly 80 years old, again hiked the entirety of the trail, making him the oldest person ever to complete a thru-hike.[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_National_Scenic_Trail
[6] http://www.backcountry.net/arch/at/0206/msg00818.html
[7] http://www.aldha.org/newsletr/sum00.pdf
[8] http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN00Nov.pdf
Did Earl hike the entirety of the Trail in 1998?
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 20:05
Beats me. If you know differently, say so.
One of the most non-credible aspects is starting in Maine and reaching NH in 2 weeks.
The guy was working from memory, not his notes.
Beats me. If you know differently, say so.
Its a question. I think L. Wolf has had some comments on this, but I am not sure.
So "Jack's statement" that you quoted is NOT factually incorrect. The 1936 hike is indeed undocumented, unproven, and has not been proven or verified.
It is not possible to prove or verify that someone actually hiked the entire trail, so this whole conversation is kinda silly. But ATC did make a conscious effort to interview one of the scouts, write about it in their magazine, and then list them as 2000-milers.
If that doesn't constitute an acknowledgment of their accomplishment, then I don't know what does.
I have one of the few copies of Earl's home grown version. And like the alleged Boy Scout who claimed he had preceeded Earl by 12 years, some of the details have become fuzzy over the years. I had assumed for years that I had purchased my copy at the 1979 ATC conference held at Sugarloaf in Maine in 1979. But then I looked and saw that my copy was dated several years later. Where I got it remains, therefore, a mystery. But it remains one of my favorite acquisitions.
Weary, ATC honorary life member.
I know where you got it, I loaned it to ya. When you gonna send it back?:D:D:D
Clyde[/QUOTE]
Ah Clyde. You are 25 years younger than me, but I still have a better memory.
Weary www.matlt.org
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 20:19
ATC lists hundreds of folks as 2000 milers simply based on someone's say so.
Being "listed" means very little.
If the '36 trip is indeed acknowledged by ATC as having occured, then why is there absolutely NO mention of this on their website, while there is a prominent mention of Earl's 1948 journey?
I've asked this question several times. Mowgli evidently has a problem with the answer. According to Mowgli, ATC has taken actions that "constitute" recognition and acknowledgment.
Except on their official website where they talk about notable 2,000 milers.
Seems to me that these lads would qualify as "noteable" and newsworthy hikers if ATC actually believed in the veracityof their tale.
But ATC somehow doesn't find them noteable or newsworthy enough to mention.
Why is that I wonder?
It is not possible to prove or verify that someone actually hiked the entire trail, so this whole conversation is kinda silly. But ATC did make a conscious effort to interview one of the scouts, write about it in their magazine, and then list them as 2000-milers.
If that doesn't constitute an acknowledgment of their accomplishment, then I don't know what does.
The ALDHA seemed to have accepted the Boy Scout Reports too, at least when they published this:
http://www.aldha.org/newsletr/sum00.pdf
The take away quote was from Eugene Espy who was quoted to say:
“It is really a good thing that they are being recognized. I sure am glad that it was Boy Scouts that did it.”
Did Earl hike the entirety of the Trail in 1998?
The evidence suggests that Earl tried to. His maps from ATC were delayed, so he used road maps. Part of the trail had never been reopened from many years of war. But as the present rules require for a 2,000 miler certificates, Earl as near as I can determine, made, a "conscientious" effort to hike the entire trail.
Weary
Cookerhiker
01-07-2009, 20:25
Interesting - this excerpt is from the ATN July-August 2002 edition in which editor Robert Rubin wrote Earl's obituary:
"...Friends and relatives were also upset when an unverified 1994 report of a 1936 end-to-end A.T.hike by a troop of Boy Scouts from New York was added in 2000 to the ATC's 2,000-miler registry, which they felt took away from Shaffer's historical status as the 'first' thru-hiker. At the urging of friends, who were pressing the Conference Board of Managers to take an official position on the question of who was first, he (Shaffer) addressed the Board at a meeting in late 2000. But, characteristically, Shaffer undercut the budding controversy, saying that the only thing he wanted to be remembered for was his service in World War II."
I wondered what prompted the ATC to add the Scout names 6 years after the article and I wonder who made the decision. Rubin's article uses the passive voice ".was added..". Back when I worked, we had an expression that bureaucratic power resided in whoever did the typing and controlled the computer file.
Did Earl hike the entirety of the Trail in 1998?
The evidence suggests that Earl tried to. His maps from ATC were delayed, so he used road maps. Part of the trail had never been reopened from many years of war. But as the present rules require for a 2,000 miler certificates, Earl as near as I can determine, made, a "conscientious" effort to hike the entire trail.
Weary
Weary, Rick was asking about 1998. Hopefully, no wars delayed him then.
Cookerhiker
01-07-2009, 20:26
The evidence suggests that Earl tried to. His maps from ATC were delayed, so he used road maps. Part of the trail had never been reopened from many years of war. But as the present rules require for a 2,000 miler certificates, Earl as near as I can determine, made, a "conscientious" effort to hike the entire trail.
Weary
Weary, Rick's question concerns Earl's 50 year anniversary hike in 1998, not the original thruhike.
Jack, you keep saying the same thing over and over. Who are you trying to convince? Me or you?
Clyde
The evidence suggests that Earl tried to. His maps from ATC were delayed, so he used road maps. Part of the trail had never been reopened from many years of war. But as the present rules require for a 2,000 miler certificates, Earl as near as I can determine, made, a "conscientious" effort to hike the entire trail.
Weary
Clearly that was the case on his first thru hike. I am wondering if he was a purist in 1998.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 20:29
Curious.
ALDHA lists seven finishers for 1936.
But the ATC's own website, which has presumably been updated since the ALDHA newsletter Rick cited was printed, lists only four.
Now I'm REALLY looking forward to hearing something in an official capacity from Harpers Ferry. Simple question to Laurie or anyone else who addresses this:
*What documentation, if any, has the ATC relied on in order to verify the
1936 claim?
*Or has the ATC merely added the names of the Scouts to the 2000 miler list
without relying on verification, i.e. do they simply add anyone to the list
who "reports" in or what?
And real simple last question to the ATC: Do they actually believe this journey took place as reported, or is their "official" line still that Earl Shaffer was the first thru-hiker? If they actually believe the 1936 story, why is there no mention of this on their official website? If the hike were genuine and the ATC had reason to believe in its veracity, then this lack of notice on the history section of their own website would appear to be a serious omission. And if this omission is deliberate, then what's the reasoning?
And now I'll wait to see what we hear from Harpers Ferry.
Isn't the the May - June 2000 edition of Appalachian Trailway News the first time and place where the names of the people from 1936 appear? Somebody waited 64 years to claim they thru hiked the trail?
But ATC somehow doesn't find them noteable or newsworthy enough to mention.
Why is that I wonder?shakes things up, people put him on a pedestal.
Interesting - this excerpt is from the ATN July-August 2002 edition in which editor Robert Rubin wrote Earl's obituary:
"...Friends and relatives were also upset when an unverified 1994 report of a 1936 end-to-end A.T.hike by a troop of Boy Scouts from New York was added in 2000 to the ATC's 2,000-miler registry, which they felt took away from Shaffer's historical status as the 'first' thru-hiker.
The difference between 7 vs. 4 in 1936, is the 3 unkown names reported by the last living scout.
shakes things up, people put him on a pedestal.
shakes things up? maybe here. no else cares.
shakes things up? maybe here. no else cares.nope, you don't see a ticker on the bottom of CNN with thru hiker names on it. its like dirty church politics.
nope, you don't see a ticker on the bottom of CNN with thru hiker names on it. its like dirty church politics.
w-t*f that mean?
Curious.
ALDHA lists seven finishers for 1936.
But the ATC's own website, which has presumably been updated since the ALDHA newsletter Rick cited was printed, lists only four.
Simple.
The ATC list is of named hikers.
There are only 4 names.
The ATC does not list hikers whos names have been lost to history.
There were 3 of these.
Seven total.
BTW, what documentation is there that Avery and that Supreme Court Justice actually hiked all of the blazes. I would be very interested in reading their journals.
Isn't the the May - June 2000 edition of Appalachian Trailway News the first time and place where the names of the people from 1936 appear? Somebody waited 64 years to claim they thru hiked the trail?
ATC first wrote about it in 1994.
Believe it or not, a walk in the woods isn't some earth shattering news event. It's a personal achievement - and little more. The fact that Max didn't think he'd done something spectacular is kind of refreshing to me.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 20:41
Actually, Rick, Avery and Douglas were meticulous diarists, in addition to writing tons of letters that document where they were and when.
The veracity of their hikes has never been questioned.
The veracity of the 1936 hike has never NOT been questioned.
w-t*f that mean?dirty church politics goes on in the south when people get pissed off about things such as style of the choir robes or how many songs to sing before the offering. its enough to split a church in two.
God Almighty! who cares? lots of people claim to be 2000 milers who are not. lots of people are 2000 milers who don't care anything about the recognition and never apply for the patch. if the boy scouts did what the man says, maybe they were content in knowing that they had done it themselves. maybe that was what was important to them. who knows? who gives a crap? no-one can ever prove it either way.
why is there no record on the ATC's website? because there was no freakin' internet in the 30's. how many people involved with the appalachian trail in the 30's are still around today? maybe it was never written down. maybe there is a lost document in the archives. why can't the document (if it exists) be found today? because the person that put it where it may or may not be is probably freakin' dead. were the boy scouts even aware that there was an organization to recognize their hike? who knows? were talking about the 30's here. not like they could call someone and ask where the hell their patch was.
maybe since jack knows everything AT related we should just take his word for it.
Actually, Rick, Avery and Douglas were meticulous diarists, in addition to writing tons of letters that document where they were and when.
I am no Dorris Kearns Goodwin, so I am not going to do any primary research in East Nowhere, but has anyone seen a good and accessible sample of these in publication?
I've asked this question several times. Mowgli evidently has a problem with the answer. According to Mowgli, ATC has taken actions that "constitute" recognition and acknowledgment.
I actually answered it. This is awkward for ATC. If you look at the ATC website, the mention of Earl is parsed.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851151/k.4C05/Noteworthy_2000Milers.htm
First reported thru-hiker. In 1948, Earl V. Shaffer became the first to report a thru-hike, walking the entire Trail from Georgia to Maine.
"First to report." Not "first thru-hiker." Why is that?
ATC list 8 2000-milers in the 1930s. They have listed 3 of the 6 scouts as 2000-milers. The other scouts names are lost to history.
If ATC didn't think that these scouts had done what they claim they did, why in the world would they have written about them in their magazine and subsequently listed them as 2000-milers? That's a question I'd like answered.
Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 20:49
In that the person you're talking about is actually named "Doris Kearns Goodwin" maybe it's best that you leave accurate research in this matter to others. :D
The veracity of the 1936 hike has never NOT been questioned.Well I am NOT questioning the boy scouts since trying to figure out whoever was the first is about as silly as who has hiked the trail the fastest.
In that the person you're talking about is actually named "Doris Kearns Goodwin" maybe it's best that you leave accurate research in this matter to others. :D
Doris will be in Chattanooga on January 13 talking about "Team of Rivals." I'll be in the audience. Can't wait.
Cookerhiker
01-07-2009, 20:57
Doris will be in Chattanooga on January 13 talking about "Team of Rivals." I'll be in the audience. Can't wait.
Make sure you tell her you're an avid Yankees fan and get her to autograph Wait 'Till Next Year, her splendid account of growing up a Brooklyn Dodgers fan in the 40s and early 50s.
Make sure you tell her you're an avid Yankees fan and get her to autograph Wait 'Till Next Year, her splendid account of growing up a Brooklyn Dodgers fan in the 40s and early 50s.
I will do that! Thanks for the tip.
In that the person you're talking about is actually named "Doris Kearns Goodwin" maybe it's best that you leave accurate research in this matter to others. :D
In the old WB corrections had a time stamp. Yes, I did leave off the S. I would not have corrected if I had seen you beat me to the punch.
As I recall Ms. Goodwin was taken to task for some rather trivial editting errors once. too. I am glad to be held to the same high standard.
Geesh, enough of this donnybrook.
Geesh, enough of this donnybrook.
Let me remind you that it could be argued that you started it. :D
max patch
01-07-2009, 21:47
I thru hiked the entire trail in 1932. With my father. And my son. And President Bush. Both of em!
Never mind that 1932 is 20 years before I was born. The ATC apparently does not let facts get in the way of a good article.
The ATC apparently does not let facts get in the way of a good article.
So you know the "facts"? Enlighten us. Please leave the feelings and assumptions out.
I thru hiked the entire trail in 1932. With my father. And my son. And President Bush. Both of em!
Never mind that 1932 is 20 years before I was born. The ATC apparently does not let facts get in the way of a good article.Awesome, I did a three week hike with my dad this summer and we had a blast. Whats up with 1932?
I thru hiked the entire trail in 1932. With my father. And my son. And President Bush. Both of em!
Never mind that 1932 is 20 years before I was born. The ATC apparently does not let facts get in the way of a good article.
I saw you guys! I was about a quarter mile ahead of you the whole way, so I was actually the first person to complete the trail. I was just going to wait until 2025 to report my thru hike
OK, Earl was the 1st to report a thru-hike. 3 boy scouts are listed as 2000-milers. Those two facts do not make the boy scouts the 1st to thru-hike.
Weary, Rick was asking about 1998. Hopefully, no wars delayed him then.
Sorry about that. I was concentrating on 1948 and misread Rick's enquiry. I don't really know. But I know of no evidence that he didn't. I met him that May at Hot Springs (?) NC., where Wingfoot was praising Earl and Earl was praising WingFoot. It wasn't clear to me at the time that Earl had already started at Springer, but I assume he had.
I do know that by the time he reached Maine, Earl was ready to quit. Earl and Marge of The Cabin, in Andover encouraged Earl to continue and encouraged another hiker to stick with him to Katahdin.
I know my first real talk with Earl was months later when he came back to Maine to thank the Cabin for helping him complete his hike. He wore a jacket that hikers had given him during his hike, complaining that "it makes me feel like a high school cheerleader."
Weary
To the best of my knowledge, there is no documentation of the 1936 Scout hikes beyond the reminiscences of an aged hiker interviewed by the editor of the Appalachian Trailway News. The “interview” was for the purpose of a human interest article, not to make a determination on whether he and members of his group were legitimate thru-hikers. After the article appeared, this gentleman's hike and that of his fellow hikers were added to our 2,000-miler database. When the controversy erupted after the names were later published in the magazine's 2,000-miler listing, the relevant committee of the ATC board discussed the matter and voted to keep the names in the database. My recollection is the group decided that since the current policy was to accept hike reports on the honor system, there was no reason to treat these hikes any differently. It's still not too unusual to receive hike reports from the '70s; we received a '59 thru-hike report just a few years ago.
It's true, Earl's 1948 hike was greeted with skepticism by ATC and he was questioned at length. And, at one point (in the late '60s or early '70s), those reporting hike completions had to sit in front of a panel and answer questions to prove they had hiked the entire Trail. At other times, both before and since the panel interview period, a postcard or possibly even a verbal report was enough to be included in the roster.
The two people most responsible for the creation of the A.T., MacKaye and Avery, never envisioned building the Trail for thru-hikers, although Avery did believe it was critical to have a continuously connected trail (MacKaye did not). The A.T. was meant to be enjoyed at a slower, more contemplative pace that allowed one to appreciate the natural world. Thru-hiking was viewed as just a "stunt." I suppose the folks around in 1948 not only didn't believe Earl had managed to hike the entire Trail in four months, they weren't eager to have the phenomenon we call "thru-hiking" today validated or popularized because it might change the way the Trail was viewed and experienced.
Well, thru-hiking has changed (or expanded) what the A.T. experience is all about, but that's a whole different topic.
Our current guidelines for recognizing hike completions are explained at http://www.appalachiantrail.org/thruhiking/after.
Laurie Potteiger
ATC
The Old Fhart
01-07-2009, 22:59
Weary-"I know my first real talk with Earl was months later when he came back to Maine to thank the Cabin for helping him complete his hike. He wore a jacket that hikers had given him during his hike, complaining that "it makes me feel like a high school cheerleader."That isn't quite correct. When I was doing trail magic at Grafton Notch (RT-26) a few years ago I had a talk with one of the friendly rangers who told me the story of his giving Earl a ride. Earl was beat and didn't have enough warm gear so the ranger gave Earl an old parka with a broken zipper that he had behind the seat of his truck. The snaps still kept the jacket closed so Earl used it the rest of the way and that is the bright colored jacket you see in the photos of Earl in Maine. I have talked to Earl's brother about this and he has verified the story.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no documentation of the 1936 Scout hikes beyond the reminiscences of an aged hiker interviewed by the editor of the Appalachian Trailway News. The “interview” was for the purpose of a human interest article, not to make a determination on whether he and members of his group were legitimate thru-hikers. After the article appeared, this gentleman's hike and that of his fellow hikers were added to our 2,000-miler database. When the controversy erupted after the names were later published in the magazine's 2,000-miler listing, the relevant committee of the ATC board discussed the matter and voted to keep the names in the database. My recollection is the group decided that since the current policy was to accept hike reports on the honor system, there was no reason to treat these hikes any differently. It's still not too unusual to receive hike reports from the '70s; we received a '59 thru-hike report just a few years ago.
It's true, Earl's 1948 hike was greeted with skepticism by ATC and he was questioned at length. And, at one point (in the late '60s or early '70s), those reporting hike completions had to sit in front of a panel and answer questions to prove they had hiked the entire Trail. At other times, both before and since the panel interview period, a postcard or possibly even a verbal report was enough to be included in the roster.
The two people most responsible for the creation of the A.T., MacKaye and Avery, never envisioned building the Trail for thru-hikers, although Avery did believe it was critical to have a continuously connected trail (MacKaye did not). The A.T. was meant to be enjoyed at a slower, more contemplative pace that allowed one to appreciate the natural world. Thru-hiking was viewed as just a "stunt." I suppose the folks around in 1948 not only didn't believe Earl had managed to hike the entire Trail in four months, they weren't eager to have the phenomenon we call "thru-hiking" today validated or popularized because it might change the way the Trail was viewed and experienced.
Well, thru-hiking has changed (or expanded) what the A.T. experience is all about, but that's a whole different topic.
Our current guidelines for recognizing hike completions are explained at http://www.appalachiantrail.org/thruhiking/after.
Laurie Potteiger
ATC
Thanks for your continual thoughtful answers and all the hard work.
Lone Wolf
01-07-2009, 23:15
Its a question. I think L. Wolf has had some comments on this, but I am not sure.
yeah. i know stuff :)
I actually answered it. This is awkward for ATC. If you look at the ATC website, the mention of Earl is parsed.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851151/k.4C05/Noteworthy_2000Milers.htm
First reported thru-hiker. In 1948, Earl V. Shaffer became the first to report a thru-hike, walking the entire Trail from Georgia to Maine.
"First to report." Not "first thru-hiker." Why is that?
ATC list 8 2000-milers in the 1930s. They have listed 3 of the 6 scouts as 2000-milers. The other scouts names are lost to history.
If ATC didn't think that these scouts had done what they claim they did, why in the world would they have written about them in their magazine and subsequently listed them as 2000-milers? That's a question I'd like answered.
I had hoped to avoid making this comment. But you are forcing me. Perhaps, the answer to your question is that the editor who did the interview and who wrote the story about the 1936 scouts was also the wife of an ATC official.
She has since been replaced with a more experienced editor and I don't think she is any longer employed. She was also a very pleasant, hardworking, and very dedicated person. I have met her several times, and dealt with her on a couple of occasions. I just never sensed from our occasional brief talks, or from the magazine she produced, that she was either a skilled reporter or a skilled editor.
Keep in mind also, that by the time the alleged thru hike by the six boy scouts came to light, the listings in the magazine and the issuance of certificates had changed to strictly an honor system. Everyone who applies and claims to have hiked the trail is now automatically given a patch and a certificate -- and a couple of inches of small type in the magazine.
The dispute really is whether the questioning that applied to Earl Shaffer should also apply to those who claimed to have achieved thru hiker status 12 years earlier than Earl's walk. Or should the new rules apply.
Weary
Our current guidelines for recognizing hike completions are explained at http://www.appalachiantrail.org/thruhiking/after.
Clear to me.
The ATC has recognized Max Gordon, Louis Zisk and Seymour as having completed the entire Trail hiked in 1936.
The ATC now refuses to recognize Earl Shaffer as the first Thru Hiker on its web site. Just the the first person to report a thu hike.
You know, the ATC should simply do away with the 2,000 Miler business all together. Its become meaningless.
Lone Wolf
01-08-2009, 08:02
You know, the ATC should simply do away with the 2,000 Miler business all together. Its become meaningless.
ya think? kinda like WGAF
Claudette Colvin was the first black woman to not give up her seat on a bus, not Rosa Parks. But some stories are just better than others. Whether Earl was first or not is secondary to the fact that his story has been the inspiration for the "thru-hike". For that, he deserves all the recognition he has received.
You know, the ATC should simply do away with the 2,000 Miler business all together. Its become meaningless.
Wow, that's really sad. Maybe you should take a stroll down memory lane and open up to your pictures or go call a trailfriend. I thought the whole point was for the individual to value the accomplishment, not others.
IMO, The ATC should spend more of the efforts worrying about protecting and helping the trail, not quibbeling over who hiked how many miles. People should police themselves. Yes, It's a flawed system of recognition, and it most likely reflects ATC's (although a nice gesture) little interest or patience for deciding these trivial aspects when I suspect they are more concerned with more substantial matters.
But who am I (or them) to discount history.
I find it hard to believe that these teenagers averaged 17 or 18 miles a day before there was light weight gear. The scout manuals of the day advised using heavy boots, bringing an axe, a shovel, steel pots and pans etc.
I don't. In 1822, Jim Bridger at age 18 helped push a boat all the way up the Missouri River and then walked countless miles trapping beaver and hunting in the snow-covered and then uncharted Rocky Mountains. We've become a nation of ninnies over the last 150 years, true, but it doesn't mean it wasn't completely possible for teenagers to do this hike.
Bigben
IMO, The ATC should spend more of the efforts worrying about protecting and helping the trail....
The system in place helps connect trail users to the organization responsible for protecting our beloved trail. It's not like they have a large staff that deals with this. Very limited resources are put towards this program.
Like the way they handle most everything, they do it right. With class. Thanks to LaurieP and all the other dedicated ATC staffers & volunteers.
That isn't quite correct. When I was doing trail magic at Grafton Notch (RT-26) a few years ago I had a talk with one of the friendly rangers who told me the story of his giving Earl a ride. Earl was beat and didn't have enough warm gear so the ranger gave Earl an old parka with a broken zipper that he had behind the seat of his truck. The snaps still kept the jacket closed so Earl used it the rest of the way and that is the bright colored jacket you see in the photos of Earl in Maine. I have talked to Earl's brother about this and he has verified the story.
We may be talking about two jackets. The one Earl was wearing at the Cabin months after his thru hike didn't strike me as an "old Parka." He mentioned it during our conversation. But frankly I was interested in things other than a jacket, and didn't pay that much attention.
I sort of got the impression it had been a gift while he spent a few days at The Cabin recuperating and slacking. I think he also wore the same jacket at the Pennyslvania Ruck, shortly before he died.
Weary
.....You know, the ATC should simply do away with the 2,000 Miler business all together. Its become meaningless.
Not quite it is still a list of names of people who tend to be more knowledgeable and interested in the trail than most hikers. I asume they all get fund raising letters annually. If not they should.
Weary www.matlt.org
Jack Tarlin
01-08-2009, 12:27
Thank you LaurieP for a very informative letter, which among other things, confirmed what I have long suspected:
*There is no documentation of the 1936 hike extant.
*Completion reports are based on the "honor" system and nothing more.
And Rick, you couldn't be more wrong. ATC recognizes that those three individuals allegedly completed the Trail, based on an undocumented report from one of the three gentlemen several decades after the fact.
To say that the ATC recognizes or believes the story is simply not true. There are any number of senior folks at the ATC who DON'T believe it.
The ATC lacks the time and the interest in verifying completion reports. Listing the 1936 hikers does not come close to proving or validating their trip, or "recognizing" that it actually took place; all it does is say that the ATC receieved a report of a completed hike.
Listing someone's name because they've submitted a report or a claim declaring that what they've told you is true is very, very different from actually believing what they've told you.
The ATC lacks the time and the interest in verifying completion reports. Listing the 1936 hikers does not come close to proving or validating their trip, or "recognizing" that it actually took place; all it does is say that the ATC receieved a report of a completed hike.So if you did not get grilled by a panel of questioners then you are not recognized as having hiked the trail? I guess all the people that just reported in once the honor system started are all fakers too.
IMO, Jack's suggestion that Max Gordon was a liar says far more about him than it does about Mr. Gordon. There is no indication that Mr. Gordon was anything other than an honorable person.
Jack Tarlin
01-08-2009, 12:45
No they're not.
But are many of them?
Absolutely.
Most folks these days don't hike the entire trail, and in many cases, they skip massive chunks of it. So yes indeed, hundreds of folks on the ATC's list probably don't belong there. The "honor" system reports are just that......they are reports, period.
Jack Tarlin
01-08-2009, 12:48
Speaking of dishonorable people and dishonorable comments, Mowgli, please show me anywhere I used the phrase "liar."
His report was based on his recollections, which evidently include the recollection that he and his friends hiked all of Maine in winter conditions in two weeks.
That's a tall order.
I'm suggesting that after a lapse of several decades, there might have been something wrong with his recollections.
But Mowgli's comment says a lot about him, too. :rolleyes:
Lone Wolf
01-08-2009, 12:53
it's soundin' more and more like earl ain't the first to hike it, just the first to report it and capatalize on it. let's hear from someone at the ATC
Mowgli, please show me anywhere I used the phrase "liar."
I'll just let your words and mine stand on their own.
Jack Tarlin
01-08-2009, 12:57
My words DO indeed stand on their own, Mowgli.
That's why I always put my real name on them.
What I object to, as anyone would, is when you try and put words in my mouth.
It's shabby and low.
I never called the guy a "liar"; I merely doubt aspects of his story.
If anyone is calling people names here or impugning their characters, it's YOU.
Give it a rest.
Alligator
01-08-2009, 13:01
It's my opinion that given Laurie's input, there isn't a whole lot left here to discuss. Believe it or not.