View Full Version : Should the ATC stop recognizing 2,000 Milers
This poll asks if a the 2,000 Miler recognition program has become an anachronism, and is best abandoned by the ATC. Perhaps to be continued by another group, or dispensed with all together.
buff_jeff
01-08-2009, 20:29
I'm kind of indifferent. I choose to ignore the patch. I'm not going to request one because it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't need to manifest anything in it. If it makes somebody else happy, though, why not?
Pedaling Fool
01-08-2009, 20:34
I want recognition for not wanting recognition.
Serial 07
01-08-2009, 20:54
great minds...
When I was a lad and went to Philmont with my scout troop, I got the patch. OK, I got the belt and buckle, too. I wore the patch on my uniform pocket until I went to Chas. L Sommers, then I got their patch. We traded patches with other scouts outside the Trading Post on both trips. Scouts like patches, for some reason. :-?
Long before I ever gave a 2,000 mile hike a thought, I saw the AT section patches at the visitor's center in GSMNP. My wife (then GF) got me one on her way to pick me up at Fontana, since I had just hiked the park SoBo.
The patches aren't the goal. I'm not even sure they constitute recognition, unless someone recognizes it (not all that common outside the hiker community). Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt? - well, I suppose the 2,000 miler patch is the t-shirt. I like shirts. Maybe they could give out 2,000 miler nalgene bottles, or commemorative hiking poles? :banana That'd be cool, and no one would contest their intrinsic value, would they?:rolleyes:
I don't see how it hurts anyone. If it makes some coin for the ATC, someone else wants to get it for me, and I can impress some hot old lady in the old folks' home when I'm 90, then I'm all for it. HYOH and wear your own patch, or not.
Ranc0r
.
Its not a problem of the ATC recognizing people. Its that people are trying to turn deflowering the trail by way of a thru hike into a competition. By recognizing 2000 milers on the honor system no matter what year the ATC has shown that they don't see it as a competition.
Its not a problem of the ATC recognizing people. Its that people are trying to turn deflowering the trail by way of a thru hike into a competition. By recognizing 2000 milers on the honor system no matter what year the ATC has shown that they don't see it as a competition.
Agreed, When i was still in the boyscouts our scoutleader had a certain hat she would take on "high adventure" trips and to philmont the jamboree and what not. it was a tan bucket hat that was COVERD in small metal enamel pins that was a record of where she had gone ,what she done, It wasnt a competition but those pins was always fasctinating to look at and ask her about the story with that particular pin.
The patch is much the same thing its just something to display for something you have done. Personaly i would like very much to have the patch and though i could just order it now on the honor system i want to earn it..that way when i have a son years from now and he asks me " dad what is this for? .. its a lore thing not a patting your self on the back " i beat you in hiking!" thing
Sorry Rick, at present it looks like most folks would rather keep the tradition. :p
Sorry Rick, at present it looks like most folks would rather keep the tradition. :p
Sly, I will fess up and let you know that I am the one who voted yes.
But rest assured, its not at all important that people agree with me. Not on this. Not on most things.
But regardless, I am all for the ATC or anyone else selling patches and stuff.
Keeping a sacred scroll seems beneath the ATC, however.
Sly, I will fess up and let you know that I am the one who voted yes.
Of course you did, I could tell by the way you phrased the question. ;)
I don't know much about the other long trails. Do their respective organizations have the certificate, patch, and list of names like the ATC does?
buckwheat
01-08-2009, 21:32
What are you? Nuts?
Should the Olympics do away with medals, since it's really all about the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat?
Um. No.
Dances with Mice
01-08-2009, 21:33
The problem seems to be that some hikers take the 2000 mile rocker more seriously than does the issuing authority.
It also seems to me that that's not the ATC's problem.
I don't know much about the other long trails. Do their respective organizations have the certificate, patch, and list of names like the ATC does?
The PCTA gives out patches if you ask. Their only criteria is that you kind of follow the crest. No problem with alternatives.
Q. Does the PCTA award me a certificate if I complete the entire PCT?
A. Yes, PCTA members will receive a certificate if they notify us of their completed thru-hike. Use the online Let Us Know form (http://www.pcta.org/planning/after_trip/know.asp) to do so. Completion certificates are free to PCTA members and $4.00 for non-members. You might also want to send in a picture and the highlights of your trip to be published in the member magazine, the Communicator or post your journal to our site. Trip commentaries contain a wealth of information and are eagerly awaited by following thru-hikers. To post your journal click here (http://www.pcta.org/planning/after_trip/journals/submit_hiker.asp) . For information about submitting writing or photographs to the Communicator, click here (http://www.pcta.org/help/join/magazine.asp#WorryMom).
And the LT does too.
ChinMusic
01-08-2009, 21:37
I want recognition for not wanting recognition.
beautiful.......:-?
in today's world, if there isn't an official patch, you can simply make your own ...or have it done - patches by google. ;)
Mrs Baggins
01-08-2009, 21:53
When the day ever comes, I'll have an AT tattoo added to my sunburst tattoo. A patch would be nice but it'll get lost or tossed someday. That tatt is mine forever more.
ChinMusic
01-08-2009, 21:56
When the day ever comes, I'll have an AT tattoo added to my sunburst tattoo. A patch would be nice but it'll get lost or tossed someday. That tatt is mine forever more.
Please tell us it won't be a Tramp Stamp.......:D
Mrs Baggins
01-08-2009, 22:05
Please tell us it won't be a Tramp Stamp.......:D
Definitely not. Way too painful there...........:eek:
i think there should be formed a new group of people to certify the rocker patch, we will call it the Peoples New Association for Conservancy of the Appalachian Trail or the PNACAT who will establish registration huts every 20 miles along the trail where you get your AT passport stamped and signed by one of our legal representative, also you have 27 hours to reach the next booth or your entire passport is deemed invalid and our friends from the CIA drag you back to the starting point and you have to try all over again....membership $60 a month to offset the slight operational costs
Definitely not. Way too painful there...........:eek:
that means she knows from experience, tramp stamps are cute...till your...30? then its endearing
TrippinBTM
01-08-2009, 22:25
Maybe they could give out 2,000 miler nalgene bottles, or commemorative hiking poles? :banana That'd be cool, and no one would contest their intrinsic value, would they?:rolleyes:
Only if it's ultralight :)
Its not a problem of the ATC recognizing people. Its that people are trying to turn deflowering the trail by way of a thru hike into a competition. By recognizing 2000 milers on the honor system no matter what year the ATC has shown that they don't see it as a competition.
I thought about this often on the trail. It seems this recognition is against the stated purpose for the AT. Instead of getting away from "society" and back into a natural setting for recreation and so forth, it brings all that competitiveness that is so entrenched in our society right out on the trail by making it a goal-oriented thing.
Obviously no one hikes only so they can get a stupid patch; but why is the ATC even involved in recognizing someone who does a thru? Their own stated goals for the AT are all internal reward sorts of things. Why this break from that?
Lone Wolf
01-08-2009, 22:38
This poll asks if a the 2,000 Miler recognition program has become an anachronism, and is best abandoned by the ATC. Perhaps to be continued by another group, or dispensed with all together.
get rid of it. no patches, no certificates
Blissful
01-08-2009, 22:41
I like having it...for me. And maybe for the grandkids so they might one day want to follow in Grandma's footsteps. :)
LOL.............................we seek to get away from the rat race, and yet we try to bring it with us.
Just LET IT GO.
I fail to see the problem, if you don't want one, don't apply. The only person that truly knows if they completed the trail, at one time or another, which are the qualifications, is those that apply.
I fail to see the problem, if you don't want one, don't apply. The only person that truly knows if they completed the trail, at one time or another, which are the qualifications, is those that apply.
yep, non issue
Pedaling Fool
01-09-2009, 10:01
...Instead of getting away from "society" and back into a natural setting for recreation and so forth, it brings all that competitiveness that is so entrenched in our society right out on the trail by making it a goal-oriented thing...
Dude, that ship has already sailed.
jersey joe
01-09-2009, 10:06
I say keep the 2,000 miler recognition...it doesn't hurt anyone!
Isn't it wonderful that we were all created so different and that we can argue about the stupidist things. If you don't want the patch and 2000 mile rocker, no body is going to make you wear it, but don't try to have it done away with because there are a lot of hikers, me included, that are rather fond of it. I have 1907 miles hiked and when I finish the other 268 this summer I am going to apply for my rocker. It's a personal goal that I will have achieved at 63 years old. I have 2 new grandchildren and they may want to follow in grandpa's footsteps along the A.T. some day. If so, I hope the patch and rocker will be around for them.
So, all you nay sayers, chill and go find something intelligent to spend your mental energy on!!!
Isn't it wonderful that we were all created so different and that we can argue about the stupidist things. If you don't want the patch and 2000 mile rocker, no body is going to make you wear it, but don't try to have it done away with because there are a lot of hikers, me included, that are rather fond of it. I have 1907 miles hiked and when I finish the other 268 this summer I am going to apply for my rocker. It's a personal goal that I will have achieved at 63 years old. I have 2 new grandchildren and they may want to follow in grandpa's footsteps along the A.T. some day. If so, I hope the patch and rocker will be around for them.
So, all you nay sayers, chill and go find something intelligent to spend your mental energy on!!!
No one should argue with that, but they probably will anyway. :rolleyes:
Congrats on finishing this summer. Which 268 miles are left?
i think there should be formed a new group of people to certify the rocker patch, we will call it the Peoples New Association for Conservancy of the Appalachian Trail or the PNACAT who will establish registration huts every 20 miles along the trail where you get your AT passport stamped and signed by one of our legal representative, also you have 27 hours to reach the next booth or your entire passport is deemed invalid and our friends from the CIA drag you back to the starting point and you have to try all over again....membership $60 a month to offset the slight operational costs
I thought this was worth seeing again. LOL.
I'm all for the rocker patch. Besides, if I send it into the IRS this year Obama has promised me a $1000 tax deduction. I also hear Toyota will recognize my accomplishment by offering a $500 rebate on a new hybrid vehicle. :banana
Hi Dogwood. I hiked from Springer to Grafton Notch, ME in 2008. I will probably start from Gorham, NH with another hiker, named Bad Hummus who left the trail at Pine Grove Furnace to begin Med-School.
Correction. I meant that reply for Tin-Man
Hi Dogwood. I hiked from Springer to Grafton Notch, ME in 2008. I will probably start from Gorham, NH with another hiker, named Bad Hummus who left the trail at Pine Grove Furnace to begin Med-School.
nice! i thought you maybe you were on the 40 year plan like me. :o
I fail to see the problem, if you don't want one, don't apply. The only person that truly knows if they completed the trail, at one time or another, which are the qualifications, is those that apply.
Not quite true, Sly. When people post on White Blaze announcing their yellow blaze and telling us they are going to apply for a patch and certificate anyway -- that they are just hiking their own hike, -- I kind of suspect they are going to ignore the qualifications.
Rather than encourage people to lie, I'd like to see an effort to encourage ATC to take a moment or two and try to define some sensible qualifications.
I don't claim to be an expert in these things. I was several hundred miles into my 1993 walk before I noticed that a handfull of hikers thought white blazes more important than the rest of us.
Until I figured it out, I thought only nuts walked backwards out of a shelter, when there was a perfectly nice blue blazed trail 100 yards further along back to the AT -- a trail maintained by the same volunteers, that maintained the official AT trail.
The same was true when people took a scenic side trail, and insisted on retracing their steps, rather than continuing on to the link with the AT.
AT should rewrite their certificate and patch guidelines to recognize all sections of the AT contructed by volunteers and endorsed by maintaining clubs are part of the official trail, regardless of the blazing. This simple change would eliminate 99 percent of the fraud that now characterizes the "honor" system.
Only deliberate short cuts designed to lessen the burden of a thru hike, and yellow blazing -- long distance automobile bypasses -- should be grounds for not qualifying for a patch and certificate, for those who make an honest effort to hike "all the trail."
Weary
i blue-blazed over the tops of many of the presidentials this past august and was happy to be section-hiking rather than racing to maine on the easy white blazes below the summits. when and if i finish, i ain't looking for no patch, so it won't be an issue. :)
Not quite true, Sly. When people post on White Blaze announcing their yellow blaze and telling us they are going to apply for a patch and certificate anyway -- that they are just hiking their own hike, -- I kind of suspect they are going to ignore the qualifications.
Rather than encourage people to lie....
I'm not encouraging anyone to lie. A couple points... I blue blazed a couple sections during my "thru-hike" and the people that knew that, but later saw where I applied for a rocker probably had no idea I went back and did the white blazes. So for them to assume, I'm a liar, is wrong.
Now, take the case of Tin Man above. If he ever completes the trail and went over a few mountains in the Whites, rather than around him, that does not disqualify him. Perhaps according to the rules, you like to follow and are posted, but I'm absolutely positive if he mentioned it to the ATC in the form, they'd laugh and mail him the certificate.
Taking white blazed out from a shelter as opposed to blue, is complete horse crap when it comes to whether you hiked the entire trail or not.
Another instance of absurdity would be to do the Gulf Hagas loop and then hiked south on the AT once you exit, to do the missing one mile of AT.
Regardless of the written rule, I believe in common sense.
I'm not encouraging anyone to lie. A couple points... I blue blazed a couple sections during my "thru-hike" and the people that knew that, but later saw where I applied for a rocker probably had no idea I went back and did the white blazes. So for them to assume, I'm a liar, is wrong.
Now, take the case of Tin Man above. If he ever completes the trail and went over a few mountains in the Whites, rather than around him, that does not disqualify him. Perhaps according to the rules, you like to follow and are posted, but I'm absolutely positive if he mention it to the ATC in the form, they'd laugh and mail him the certificate.
Taking white blazing out from a shelter as opposed to blue is complete horse crap when it comes to whether you hked the entire trail or not.
Another instance of absurdity would be to do the Gulf Hagas loop and retrace your steps once you exit, to do the missing one mile of AT.
Regardless of the written rule, I believe in common sense.
As do I. That's why I think ATC should spend a few moments sometime and write a common sense set of guidelines.
Weary
As do I. That's why I think ATC should spend a few moments sometime and write a common sense set of guidelines.
Weary
I think the main point they're trying to convey is yellow blazing doesn't count. It would be absurd for them to list all the what ifs.
I believe what's really needed if you don't follow every single white blaze, is to list any discrepancies. If you want the patch and they don't give it to you, go back.
I think the main point they're trying to convey is yellow blazing doesn't count. It would be absurd for them to list all the what ifs.
I believe what's really needed if you don't follow every single white blaze, is to list any discrepancies. If you want the patch and they don't give it to you, go back.
I've always argued that if you want a patch, just send AT an honest account of what you did and they will send it to you.
I'm not going to do it tonight. I have to get up early for the annual all day MATC planning meeting. But remind me sometime and I'll send you a 100 word paragraph that would eliminate 99.9 % of all the fudging hikers go through to qualify for a 2,000 miler patch.
Weary
Plodderman
01-09-2009, 23:40
Keep up the recogniton as it is quite an accomplishment.
I've always argued that if you want a patch, just send AT an honest account of what you did and they will send it to you.
I'm not going to do it tonight. I have to get up early for the annual all day MATC planning meeting. But remind me sometime and I'll send you a 100 word paragraph that would eliminate 99.9 % of all the fudging hikers go through to qualify for a 2,000 miler patch.
Weary
Don't send it to me, send it to the ATC. They may want to keep the wording like it is.
However, I do think it's old school and needs to be changed.
Pedaling Fool
01-10-2009, 09:34
...I'd like to see an effort to encourage ATC to take a moment or two and try to define some sensible qualifications....Weary
How much clearer can the ATC make the qualification guidelines? You must pass every white blaze, only time an alternate route is allowed is when the AT is impassable or would jepordize your safety.
I've always argued that if you want a patch, just send AT an honest account of what you did and they will send it to you.
I'm not going to do it tonight. I have to get up early for the annual all day MATC planning meeting. But remind me sometime and I'll send you a 100 word paragraph that would eliminate 99.9 % of all the fudging hikers go through to qualify for a 2,000 miler patch.
Weary
First off, in today's world it is so damn easy to produce a written document. Secondly, do you want your donated money spent on ATC employees going over these written documents trying to verify if someone is qualified to receive a DAMN patch.
if people hiked as much as they whined about nonsense like this, there would be 2,000-miler patches and rockers on every pack
ATC is not wedded to the current, exact wording of the 2,000-miler recognition guidelines. No one at ATC has any huge investment in keeping it as it is. In fact, it has been tweaked a few times even over the last decade--tightened and loosened in at attempt to find the right balance. Prior to that, I simply don't know whether there were actually clear, written guidelines, or just a verbal understanding, but as I stated before, attitudes and processes related to recognizing 2,000-milers have changed over the years.
ATC has several goals in the 2,000-miler recognition program:
- Capturing end-to-end usage of the A.T. (True, there may not be a lot of thru-hikers, but they can have significant impacts when bunched together).
- Capturing trends in those statistics and statistics about the hikers themselves. There is a tremendous appetite from the public, media, and researchers about thru-hikers. The 2,000-miler database allows us to answer inquiries about them.
- Strengthing our connection with this group of hikers who knows our physical trail from Georgia to Maine better than anyone and is among its most passionate supporters.
- Honoring A.T. traditions.
- Receiving ongoing feedback about trail issues and the trail experience. In the process, we sometimes get wonderful quotes about the A.T.
We want to recognize those who have hiked end to end, although it is not important to us that a hiker passes virtually every one of the 80,000-something blazes. What kind of experience would it be if a hiker was consumed with being "legit" with every step? That's never been part of ATC's view of what the A.T. is for, and it can (although doesn't necessarily) detract from a hiker's ability to really enjoy what's around them. Most at ATC don't view a hiker taking a blue-blazed trail as any great sin. In fact, we'd want someone to choose a blue-blaze if their safety were threatened and an alternate route provided greater safety. Taking a blue-blazed trail because it was more scenic or shorter? There hasn't been much discussion about that, but I know some long-time staff members who feel it's not a big deal. Of course, many blue-blazed and alternate routes were once the A.T.
The biggest question is outright skipping of sections. Skipping a mile or two here or there is not a big deal. On the other hand, if you tell us you did the "aqua blaze," or skipped the whole state of Maryland, we'll return or hold your application and ask you to go back and finish the section if you want to be recognized. It only seems fair to all the others who have come before. But if it's something in between, that's the hardest. There are some applications that end up being a judgment call, which does seem arbitrary. On the other hand, it seems counter to the whole tradition to put out some number and tell people it was okay to skip, say, 21.75 miles, but not 22.
If anyone can come up with a new definition that meets ATC's goals and better suits the long-distance hiker community, more power to them. We'd be delighted to consider it.
By the way, volunteers do more than 90% of the work involved in the recognition program.
Laurie Potteiger
ATC
Pedaling Fool
01-10-2009, 10:54
...in at attempt to find the right balance....Laurie Potteiger
ATC
Life is a tricky balancing act.
What kind of experience would it be if a hiker was consumed with being "legit" with every step? That's never been part of ATC's view of what the A.T. is for, and it can (although doesn't necessarily) detract from a hiker's ability to really enjoy what's around them. Most at ATC don't view a hiker taking a blue-blazed trail as any great sin. In fact, we'd want someone to choose a blue-blaze if their safety were threatened and an alternate route provided greater safety. Taking a blue-blazed trail because it was more scenic or shorter? There hasn't been much discussion about that, but I know some long-time staff members who feel it's not a big deal. Of course, many blue-blazed and alternate routes were once the A.T.This is very good to hear. On some shelters that have two access trails I have seen a number of people backtrack just so they do don't miss a few white blazes. I always thought that was very silly.
Well if anything, all this talk about the ATC reminded me once again, that I needed to re-up my membership, which is exactly what I did.
Laurie,
Thank you for participating here and expressing the ATC's views in another excellent post. I think it would be difficult to argue against these very reasonable points on the 2,000 miler designation. It is also very interesting to know the thoughts behind them. Thanks again.
Tin Man
ATC member
Pedaling Fool
01-10-2009, 11:32
Well if anything, all this talk about the ATC reminded me once again, that I needed to re-up my membership, which is exactly what I did.
Best way to get a patch;)
Best way to get a patch;)
I think he has a couple already. :)
Cookerhiker
01-10-2009, 11:44
in today's world, if there isn't an official patch, you can simply make your own ...or have it done - patches by google. ;)
or by Fishin' Fred;) Then he usually donates part of the proceeds to the ATC.
Cookerhiker
01-10-2009, 11:47
ATC is not wedded to the current, exact wording of the 2,000-miler recognition guidelines. No one at ATC has any huge investment in keeping it as it is. In fact, it has been tweaked a few times even over the last decade--tightened and loosened in at attempt to find the right balance. Prior to that, I simply don't know whether there were actually clear, written guidelines, or just a verbal understanding, but as I stated before, attitudes and processes related to recognizing 2,000-milers have changed over the years.
ATC has several goals in the 2,000-miler recognition program:
- Capturing end-to-end usage of the A.T. (True, there may not be a lot of thru-hikers, but they can have significant impacts when bunched together).
- Capturing trends in those statistics and statistics about the hikers themselves. There is a tremendous appetite from the public, media, and researchers about thru-hikers. The 2,000-miler database allows us to answer inquiries about them.
- Strengthing our connection with this group of hikers who knows our physical trail from Georgia to Maine better than anyone and is among its most passionate supporters.
- Honoring A.T. traditions.
- Receiving ongoing feedback about trail issues and the trail experience. In the process, we sometimes get wonderful quotes about the A.T.
We want to recognize those who have hiked end to end, although it is not important to us that a hiker passes virtually every one of the 80,000-something blazes. What kind of experience would it be if a hiker was consumed with being "legit" with every step? That's never been part of ATC's view of what the A.T. is for, and it can (although doesn't necessarily) detract from a hiker's ability to really enjoy what's around them. Most at ATC don't view a hiker taking a blue-blazed trail as any great sin. In fact, we'd want someone to choose a blue-blaze if their safety were threatened and an alternate route provided greater safety. Taking a blue-blazed trail because it was more scenic or shorter? There hasn't been much discussion about that, but I know some long-time staff members who feel it's not a big deal. Of course, many blue-blazed and alternate routes were once the A.T.
The biggest question is outright skipping of sections. Skipping a mile or two here or there is not a big deal. On the other hand, if you tell us you did the "aqua blaze," or skipped the whole state of Maryland, we'll return or hold your application and ask you to go back and finish the section if you want to be recognized. It only seems fair to all the others who have come before. But if it's something in between, that's the hardest. There are some applications that end up being a judgment call, which does seem arbitrary. On the other hand, it seems counter to the whole tradition to put out some number and tell people it was okay to skip, say, 21.75 miles, but not 22.
If anyone can come up with a new definition that meets ATC's goals and better suits the long-distance hiker community, more power to them. We'd be delighted to consider it.
By the way, volunteers do more than 90% of the work involved in the recognition program.
Laurie Potteiger
ATC
Laurie, thank you for a thorough and complete response articulating what I feel is a very reasonable position.
Best way to get a patch;)
Once a 2000-miler, always a 2000-miler. :banana