Walk with Wingfoot?

[U-BOLT]

Wingfoot will be doing the AT again in 2005. Would you hike with him?

[Ramble~On]

Oh Man....There Goes the neighborhood.

Umm, Yeah I'd hike with him if he'd send me free copies of the Planning Guide

and the Handbook.....and of course he'd have to carry my pack:bse

[Jaybird]

Wingfoot will be doing the AT again in 2005. Would you hike with him?



yea...i'll be section-hiking in 2005....will he carry my pack too? ;)

[WalkinHome]

Please folks, a little sanity here. Love him or hate him, he is not the enemy. He does not deserve this unprovoked poll. IMHO Remember, he was THE source of information before Whiteblaze. Be Safe

[Blue Jay]

Please folks, a little sanity here. Love him or hate him, he is not the enemy. He does not deserve this unprovoked poll. IMHO Remember, he was THE source of information before Whiteblaze. Be Safe

Yes, leave the guy alone. Is he attacking you? No

[icemanat95]

I agree, Wingfoot was THE trail guy for most of the 90's. I personally enjoyed his company and advice tremendously during my 1995 thru-hike. Something happened to him between then and now, but maybe some time on the trail as a thru-hiker again will heal those wounds, whatever they are.

Cut the guy some slack. After all, you don't have to read his website or listen to his opinions, you can always walk away.

Personally I would like to spend some time on the trail with Wingfoot, just as I have spent time on the trail with Warren Doyle and even Ward Leonard. Trail people are cool, especially on the trail itself. Many of us come into the best of ourselves on the trail. (OK Ward is still, well, nutty on the trail or off, but he's got a legitimate excuse.)

[cryptobrian]

with Wingfoot than many of the recent posters here on WhiteBlaze. Quite frankly, as a mostly lurker on both WhiteBlaze and Trailplace I find the behavior here on WhiteBlaze towards Wingfoot to be much more offensive than anything I've seen frrom Wingfoot. He is operating his own place as he sees fit. We might not like the way he does it or agree with all of his notions, but it's his place and we'd do well to remember that when on his site you are a guest at his place. Here on WhiteBlaze you might not have the iron fist ruling over the forums but you do have a lot of very untoward obsession with calling Wingfoot out whenever possible. The recent rise in threads devoted specifically to criticizing Wingfoot, especially those started by the adminstration of this web site, is tarnishing WhiteBlaze and all those who participate. So yeah, given a choice I'd gladly hike with Wingfoot and probably come away enriched for having done so.

[flyfisher]

Well, I had to choose something... I guess each person is a master of what they think.

I'd be happy to walk with just about anyone as long as they did not pose a threat to my health or happiness.

I'd love to hear Wingfoot's view of the history of the trail. He has some very strongly held beliefs. It would be great to hear from him why this might be.

I'd love to debate some principles with him, without the risk of being banned from the discussion.

I'd love to spend some time to get to know the person instead of the web personna.

As a newbie to long distance hiking, I'd love to have a few moments to share who I am, what I believe, and where my perception of the trail is heading.

I'd continue to hope that our talking, and walking led to the potential for growth for both of us. Perhaps I would change my mind about some fundamental part of the way I view the trail. Perhaps he would. Perhaps not.

I'd love to spend time walking with any of the strong personalities on Whiteblaze as well, for much the same reasons. The list is long. Not to leave anyone out, but a number of miles with any of the following would be very worthwhile:

- Warren Doyle
- Lone Wolf
- Jaybird
- Blue Jay
- Amazing Grace
- attroll
- Sgt Rock

and that is just scratching the surface...

An evening or 10 sitting around the cowboy TV, learning from any fellow hiker, is a lifetime experience.

Walk well!

[Blue Jay]

I don't think I'm worthy to be on that list, but man, that would be one hell of a great time. :clap

[warren doyle]

I'm glad that Dan is planning a 2005 thru-hike. I hope it happens. He is a passionate educator who desires to help people rather than hurt them - just like the trail is for the pilgrims upon it.
Since I will be on the trail as well in 2005, I hope to be able to walk and talk a few miles with him along our respective journeys.
I enjoy conversing with other travelers on their way to becoming.

[flyfisher]

Since I will be on the trail as well in 2005, I hope to be able to walk and talk a few miles with him along our respective journeys.
I enjoy conversing with other travelers on their way to becoming.

Warren,

I will be starting at Mt. Rogers, northbound about mid March 2005. If you are doing a thruhike similar to others you have led, it will be interesting to see where y'all pass me. I look forward to meeting you somewhere on the trail.

[Lone Wolf]

I guess I'll come out of retirement too. :sun

[Blue Jay]

I guess I'll come out of retirement too. :sun

You just bought a Harley, Fat Boy chance of that. :banana

[Bankrobber]

I would love to hike with the guy, see what he is like outside of the internet. Since people don't feel like he has much legitimacy anymore since he has not hiked for a while, the hike will improve his reputation.

[TJ aka Teej]

Remember, he was THE source of information before Whiteblaze.

That's complete nonsense.

[funkyfreddy]

I'm sure I'll be doing part of the AT in 2005, not sure which sections yet, still working on 2004. I would love to meet up with Warren, Wingfoot, and anyone else who's passionate about the outdoors, hiking, and the AT. This year I'll be going from Monson to Baxter and will probably do section hikes in NJ and Vermont.

[SGT Rock]

I am amazed I made the list.

Anyway, I used to really like WF's TrailPlace, but now I just sort of stay out of his way. Maybe he needs to get out on the trail again and hike. Hell, I know I do.

[max patch]

That's complete nonsense.

That's complete nonsense.

[TJ aka Teej]

That's complete nonsense.

Max, I am willing to accept that you are/were completely unaware of all the other AT information sources other than Dan that were available before WB.

[A-Train]

I'd love to hike with Wingfoot and talk to him away from the computer and internet. I'm sure he'd add quite a lot to a conversation, he's very opionated. I'm glad he's getting back on the Trail

[Blue Jay]

Max, I am willing to accept that you are/were completely unaware of all the other AT information sources other than Dan that were available before WB. After all, it would've been impossible for you to know about them with your head so far up WF's ass.

Hey, I'm the mean one around here. It's bad enough I :banana have to compete with Lone Wolf.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm a big pussy. :cool:

[steve hiker]

I know this girl in Jersey who would like to meet wingfoot.:dance

[Jersey Bob]

at least 10 characters

[Jack Tarlin]

Hey Teej---

You sign off on your post by quoting Robert Frost......something pithy about educated men being able to hold their tempers. Very erudite and impressive, I must say. But in your post, you feel the need to use the sort of angry tone and raw speech that really has no place here. Even if some folks here agree with you on this matter, this sort of gutter language will not earn you much agreement or respect. If you dis-agree with something Max or anyone else has said, then present a rational and mature argument on why you feel they're wrong. But as much as I respect you and your opinions here, Teej, comments such as your latest one don't really add much to the discussion. It's no secret here (or on other forums) how you feel about Dan Bruce. Some folks think you're rather obsessive about it. You're entitled to your opinion; you're entitled to hold strong opinions. But posts such as your last one are unworthy of you.

[weary]

Max, I am willing to accept that you are/were completely unaware of all the other AT information sources other than Dan that were available before WB. After all, it would've been impossible for you to know about them with your head so far up WF's ass.

Ah. TJ. You're such a pleasant person to have around. It's such fun to watch you panting after the chance to be the first purveyor of new information, and your bitter, destructive response whenever anyone questions your wisdom.

Even more than Wingfoot, you truly need to take a long hike.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

Hey Teej---

You sign off on your post by quoting Robert Frost......something pithy about educated men being able to hold their tempers. Very erudite and impressive, I must say. But in your post, you feel the need to use the sort of angry tone and raw speech that really has no place here.

Sorry about that, everyone. The next time I find myself pointing out the location of Max's head, I'll hit delete instead of send.

Mea culpa.

[Lone Wolf]

Don't apologize. It's how you feel. Who cares how Jack feels. Don't candy coat anything.

[TJ aka Teej]

... bitter, destructive response whenever anyone questions your wisdom.
Typing in front of the mirror again, Weary?

[TJ aka Teej]

Don't apologize. It's how you feel. Who cares how Jack feels. Don't candy coat anything.

Yes, it's how I felt. But it was disrespectful of me to use that language on this board, where I am a guest. I knew I was doing wrong when I hit send, and I'm thankful Jack called me on it.

[smokymtnsteve]

"Most of what we call the classics of world literature suggest artifacts in a wax museum. We have to hire and pay professors to get them read and talked about."

The words of Edward Abbey

[free]

I would walk with wingfoot, who posted this poll anyway???? I spoke with wingfoot about 5 years ago over the phone about being a transcriber for online journals he spoke at length about the trail etc.... as busy as he was back than he had plenty of time to speak with a stranger and made me feel like a friend.

[Mountain Dew]

.... "He was THE source before WhiteBlaze.com" - BS

.... "The hike will improve his reputaion" - If I were a betting man I'd put everything I have against that. I'd be willing to bet that his hiking again would solidify his reputation as a bitter ex-hiker with absolutely no tolerance for others opinions.

What makes you think that this "PASSIONATE EDUCATOR" will be any more tolerant on the trail of others ideas and ways than he is online ? If you agree that it is his right to post his opinions and have no tolerance on trailplace.com then you must also admit that it is SO MANY other hikers right to dislike him for these actions and opinions. I agree that he can do with his website as he see's fit.

It is no coincidence that he list's uncle johnny's hostel information in "his" book while the A.T.C. chooses not to even mention uncle johnny.

[Ramble~On]

I stopped by Wingfoot's house in Hot Springs during my 96 hike.
He's a great guy. He's full of information. His "Planning Guide" was an incredible aid in my planning. Don't get me wrong about my above post.
I'd be happy.....honored rather...... to hike with him....but I wouldn't hike the entire trail with him or anyone else.......unless of course that anyone else was one beautiful female.
(of course if he wants to.....he can still Sherpa my pack) :banana .
After his 2005 hike I imagine there will be one hell of a 2006 Hiker's Handbook.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Hike w/WF?......No.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea............I hear that, Hudson. If he's as miserable on The Trail as he is on his web-site, what's his point in hiking again, sos he can tell everbody his political view point and everybody what he knows, etc.etc.etc......How shallow! KZ@:o

[Blue Jay]

Yea............

You take great photographs, but what the hell does that mean?

[smokymtnsteve]

do you really think wingfoot could complete a thru-hike?

[weary]

"PASSIONATE EDUCATOR"[/B] will be any more tolerant on the trail of others ideas and ways than he is online ?
.

Because everyone I've ever met in person has been more tolerant on the trail of others ideas and ways than they were on line -- even TJ.

Weary

[Pennsylvania Rose]

Back in 1990 I hiked with a group that included Wingfoot for a couple of weeks. He was funny, full of information, and opinionated. I'd hike with him again in a minute, even if I don't agree with him on some issues.

[weary]

do you really think wingfoot could complete a thru-hike?

I think most anyone in reasonable health with six or seven months available can complete a thru hike. I also think that very few actually have -- including me.

Of course it depends on what one means by a thru hike. My somewhat naive thought when I headed south 11 years ago was that a thru hike involved walking from Springer to Katahdin in one continuous walk.

About 400 miles into my walk it dawned on me (yes, I'm a bit slow) that some thought I was supposed to be passing every white blaze. I thought about that for awhile and concluded I wasn't thru hiking, just walking home from Georgia on a route that was on and around a white-blazed trail.

But then the next year I saw a lot of trail buddies listed as 2000-milers by ATC, some of whom had taken even more detours than me.

For a moment or two I thought I might also register. But Wingfoot set me straight. No I didn't ask his permission. I just signed up for his forum and was asked to say whether I was a thru hiker or not. I told him I thought of myself as one, but I needed a more precise definition.

Well, we exchanged a lot of conversations on the matter. I came to understand what he thought. I'm still puzzling over what I think. I think if we hiked together from Georgia to Katahdin that would be enough time to sort out all these complications.

From time to time I'm even tempted to try. But I'm afraid he would quickly outwalk me.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

DELETED ..in poor taste..but it was RATHER funny!

:D

I'll just wait for Lone Wolf to make the remark.

[attroll]

I would hike with him in a minute. But I would not tell him who I was. This way he would get to know me before before passing judgment on me. I am very offended that he has already done this to me just because I have another web site dealing with the Appalachian Trail. I am sure he is and awesome hiking partner.

[Needles]

I would hike with Wingfoot, but only for a short period of time, and I consider him a really good friend!

Wingfoot is an amazingly intelligent person, his brain is full of vast amounts of information, and not just about the trail. Want to talk about architecture? How about music (especially classical music)? Politics? Maybe you are into physics? How about history or classic movies? He could keep up with just about anyone on any of these subjects and hundreds more. Let me put it this way, if I were to get on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" Wingfoot's number would be on the top of my "phone a friend" list. The thing to understand is that he is just as opinionated on all the subjects mentioned above as he is the trail, and just like his opinions on the trail he didn't come to them by accepting the first thing he heard or read or by pulling his opinions out of thin air. Lots of people may disagree with much of what Wingfoot thinks, but if you get into a discussion with him do understand that his opinions are almost always backed up by lots of research and/or personal experience.

And he is more than happy to share his knowledge and opinions with others, believe it or not he, I think at least, hopes that you might disagree with him, but only if you can back up your opinions. If you can back them up then he looks on it as a chance to learn himself, if you can't back them up then he has no time for the discussion and will want to move onto something else. It is his willingness to share that would make him great to hike with, spending a night in a shelter with WF would be a fascinating experience, spending every night for 2 months in shelters with WF might, well you might want a little quiet sooner or later :-)

[weary]

Just a quick further thought. Wingfoot has written on several occasions that his efforts are confined to promoting and educating people to what he considers the traditional thru hike in accordance to the stated principles of Appalachian Trail Conference.

He says he confines this effort to his web site, and his writings. Wingfoot insists that he never criticizes people he meets who are actually hiking the trail. He recognizes the obvious -- that there are many enjoyable ways to get from Georgia to Maine.

He doesn't object to others making different hiking decisions. But rather he objects to others using his site to promote hiking practices that are in opposition to the stated goals of his site.

As others have pointed out, Wingfoot is a very wise person. I happen to think that his rigid site rules sometimes work against his goal of encouraging the trail to be used more in concert with his values.

Though in 1993 I did not hike the traditional way, I certainly have no objection to people doing so or Wingfoot promoting such hiking practices. Wingfoot and I both fervently believe the wildness values of the trail need to be nurtured and protected -- and expanded where possible.

Sadly, his decisions about who can and who cannot participate on his site have at times kept valuable allies in achieving his goals away. I am a member of Trailplace and post thoughts occasionally there. But some of Wingfoot's strongest defenders on this and other forums have been denied participation.

Weary

[Lone Wolf]

"Traditional" thru-hiking? What the hell is that? The AT was NEVER intended to be hiked end to end in one shot. Along comes Earl and makes it an endurance event. At least he blue-blazed and road walked a lot. "Traditional" is in Wingfoot's mind only. Friggin elitists.

[Jack Tarlin]

Interesting comments. First off, I have to agree with Wolf about the "traditionalist" argument---there's no one set way to hike the Trail, and anyone who insists on saying otherwise is arguing a pretty lonely proposition.

Note to Weary---while it's commendable that, as you say, WF refuses to criticize people he meets WHILE he's hiking, well he certainly doesn't seem to be troubled about criticizing folks when he isn't. One could also point out that his opportunity to talk to folks while he's hiking have been relatively few and far between over the past few years, but let's not even go there.

WF hasn't done much hiking over the past few years as he's been tied up, partly with his book and website, but even more so as the principal caretaker for several aging relatives. The folks that are making snide comments about his repeated announced plans to hike the Trail again are ignoring the fact that in recent years he's had other obligations and demands on his time.

I hope he does get to hike again, and I think he'd be a fascinating guy to hike and talk with. I think it'd be great for him to see first-hand how the Trail has changed over the years, as well as getting the chance to revisit favorite places, and discover new hiker services and businesses. It'd be great for him and it'd be great for the hiking community as well, as it'd certainly help him produce a better and more informed Handbook.

Anyway, I hope he does get out there next year. Dunno if I'd wanna go the distance with him or anything like that, but I'm sure he feels the same way about me.

[MOWGLI]

I met WF in 2000 when I went through Hot Springs. At the time, I was keeping a journal on his site. One of the things that I recall was that he was smoking a great deal in 2000. While Baltimore Jack and others have shown us that it is indeed possible to hike the entire AT while smoking, personally, I wouldn't want to do it. I remember that I was rather shocked to see him light up. I don't know why. I guess I just expected someone who had hiked that much to take better care of themself.

I'm sure WF is capable of hiking the AT from end to end once again. A 10 years (or so) layoff, and lots of cigarettes won't make the task any easier however.

And to answer the question, yes, I'd hike with him. I'd want to do it the same as I'd do with anyone else however. Not for more than a week or so. I don't like to hike with the same folks for too long. Anyway, I'm sure that I'd be tough to be around after a week or so myself.

Little Bear

[torch]

I think if you pay attention to what wingfoot says, he is not saying there is only one way to hike the AT. He only maintains that for official 2000-miler status, you must hike every blaze. If you don't hike every blaze, then you did not hike a "traditional" hike, and by the definition set by the ATC (Dan did not make this distinction, he simply obides by it...very strongly). Just as if you hike from Georgia to Maine via I-95 you didn't hike the entire AT (or any of it), if you don't hike all the white blazes, you did a hell of an accomplishment, but you didn't hike the entire AT.

Wingfoot repeatedly states the "hike your own hike" mantra, but he adds to be honest about what you did. If you didn't hike every white blaze, don't claim to have done so.

That being said, if someone enters a shelter via one blueblaze trail and exits via a different one, to me, that's good enough. But according to the ATC, that isn't hiking the entire AT, wingfoot seems to agree with them and not me.

What I find amazing is that so many people on this site give a rat's ass about what wingfoot does when they claim to have no respect for him. If you have zero respect, then why are you even looking at threads addressing him?

[weary]

Interesting comments. First off, I have to agree with Wolf about the "traditionalist" argument---there's no one set way to hike the Trail, and anyone who insists on saying otherwise is arguing a pretty lonely proposition.

Note to Weary---while it's commendable that, as you say, WF refuses to criticize people he meets WHILE he's hiking, well he certainly doesn't seem to be troubled about criticizing folks when he isn't. One could also point out that his opportunity to talk to folks while he's hiking have been relatively few and far between over the past few years, but let's not even go there....

.

Some clarifications are in order. Let's start with the more serious misunderstanding first. Wingfoot certainly "refuses to criticize people he meets WHILE he's hiking." But what I said was that he doesn't criticize hikers he meets in person. Since He lived for years in Hot Springs and the trail goes right through the town he met many hundreds of thru hikers in Hot Springs, drank beer with many of them, talked with even more, but did not lecture them on how to hike -- or so he says and I have no evidence to contradict his claim. Therefore whether he has hiked or not is irrelevant to my point.

Certainly, the promotion of one style of hiking implies criticsm of others. But I don't see much bandwidth on Trailplace devoted to criticism of others. Just constant reminders when the conversation strays that his site is for a specific purpose and that purpose doesn't include hiking practices Wingfoot chooses not to discuss.

Now for the second point BJ makes. Obviously, there is no one set way to hike the trail. There is a Wingfoot way, however, which he has labeled "traditional." Whether it is in fact "traditional" or not is beside the point. But Wingfoot's definition is essentially's ATC's requirement for a 2000-miler patch, namely that except for safety considerations those applying should have "walked every mile." To be sure, no one at ATC checks. But I didn't apply because I didn't walk every mile. A lot of people in my position do apply. I can understand why. The list in Trailway News is a convenient way to let the 100s of people met on the trail know that one finally reached Katahdin. I was sorely tempted, but didn't.

I happen to think ATC rules reflect a misunderstanding of the trail and trail users -- and indicate very little serious thought about the issue. But I do think the routine violation of the posted rules for a patch also doesn't reflect very favorably on the hiking community.

Weary

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, Weary, the ATC "rules" reflect a great deal of thought, but they simply don't want to beat the issue to death. They aren't interested in policing the trail, or having periodic "sign in" places on the Trail to register and document who hiked where and when. They lack the resources, manpower, and most of all, the interest in pursuing such matters. More to the point, they realize that anyone who wishes to claim thru-hiker status who hasn't actually thru-hiked will find a way to do so regardless of what measures are taken to prevent this. So contrary to what you say, they've given the matter a lot of thought, and like most intelligent folks, this isn't a matter they want to spend a lot of time on. They do indeed have a published definition of what they've come to belive constitutes a thru-hike and what doesn't, and the fact that it might seem out of touch or at variance with what a lot of today's hikers think is not really relevant. A lot of today's hikers have come up with all sorts of imaginative definitions of thru-hiking in order to justify their missing miles. Fact is, not too many people care. The ATC has given this a great deal of thought Weary. The point I think you're missing is that it simply isn't something they care to think about that much. They have more pressing concerns.

[Bankrobber]

Weary,
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. While I was not on Wingfoot's forums, I subscribed to ATML for quite a while. He was not just criticizing the way others hiked, but he was seeking to stop them from hiking like that. This especially applies to his push to end the use of cell phones. He wants no electronic devices on the trail, including GPS systems. I disagree with the cult of personality he promotes, but that is why I unsubscribed from the mailing list.
He believes that the trail is in danger, and that others need to be stopped from ruining it. Personally, I disagree with him. But if I had convictions as strongly as his, I would speak just as strongly.
Hopefully this hike will convince him that things are not in such dire straits. He will realize that while the trail may have changed, it is still a wonderful thing. Maybe I am being optimistic, but I hope that this is the case.

[TJ aka Teej]

To paraphrase a friend of ours:
We have dwelt on this subject of TrailPlace and Wingfoot long enough. We do not want WhiteBlaze to turn into a Wingfoot lovers/bashers site. We have so much other productive things to talk about than promoting/bashing WF and his site.
---
Let's start no more threads about him, OK?

[steve hiker]

A better question is can you forgive Wingfoot?

Or, to take it a step further, can God forgive Satan? :-? Why not? For, if all creation is of God, Lucifer is one of God's children too (though a very naughty one). Surely it pains God to no end to see Satan steadfastly rebelling and making mischief all these years. Just imagine the joy in heaven if Satan finally were to repent, accept God's infinate forgiveness, and returns to his Father's house.

So it should be, it could be, with Wingfoot, if only the hiking community would reach down in their stoney hearts and find the compassion to forgive.

[BiteBlaze]

I knew WF was the Devil incarnate. In numerology, Wingfoot=666.


A better question is can you forgive Wingfoot?

Or, to take it a step further, can God forgive Satan? :-? Why not? For, if all creation is of God, Lucifer is one of God's children too (though a very naughty one). Surely it pains God to no end to see Satan steadfastly rebelling and making mischief all these years. Just imagine the joy in heaven if Satan finally were to repent, accept God's infinate forgiveness, and returns to his Father's house.

So it should be, it could be, with Wingfoot, if only the hiking community would reach down in their stoney hearts and find the compassion to forgive.

[SGT Rock]

The 2000 miler debate has been split from this thread and moved to General Hiking forum.

[steve hiker]

Yeah I'd hike with Wingy. Like most testy internet personalities, I predict WF will mellow out once on the trail and fall in line with the hiking community.

In fact he'll probably learn quite a few things from us. His '05 gear list which he has posted on Tailplace has some rather dated items, probably from his past thru-hike. Other items are pretty good, though. Here it is.

GEAR FOR 2005 THRU-HIKE:

Wt(oz) - Item/description

79.40 - Backpack
-------------- JanSport Bryce (frame) - 26.70
-------------- JanSport Bryce (packbag, belt, backband, shoulder straps) - 49.30
-------------- 1" Straps (top for tent) - 1.00
-------------- 1" Straps (bottom for sleeping bag) - 1.20
-------------- Hanging cord (for use in shelters) - 0.20
09.40 - Pack raincover (made from pack cloth)
70.00 - Tent, 1-person (free-standing)
-------------- Eureka Backcountry 1 - 67.00
----------------- Tent - 28.00
----------------- Fly - 11.80
----------------- Poles w/stuff sack - 21.70
----------------- Stakes w/red stuff sack - 3.00
----------------- Stuff sack (for everything) - 2.50
-------------- Footprint, plastic (30"x90") - 3.00
30.00 - Sleeping Bag (winter)*
05.40 - Groundcloth, nylon (84"x46")
29.80 - Sleeping Pad
-------------- Therm-A-Rest, Ultralight (full-length) - 28.10
-------------- Stuff sack - 1.70
00.80 - Sitting pad (11"x15"x0.25", closed-cell)
15.60 - Stove & Cookset
-------------- Trangia burner w/lid and simmer ring - 4.00
-------------- Trangia Westwind stand - 2.30
-------------- Wind screen - 1.10
-------------- Cooking pot (0.8L) - 3.00
-------------- Cooking pot (0.4L) - 2.40 (serves as lid for large pot)
-------------- Pot handle/gripper - 1.20
-------------- Spoon, stainless steel - 0.75
-------------- Lighter - 0.50
-------------- Stuff sack - 0.35
03.00 - Fuel bottle, 0.4 L (for denatured alcohol)*
06.40 - (2) Water bottles, 0.4 L
04.00 - Water bag, 2.5 gals.*
11.00 - Water filter, Katadyn Hiker*
02.30 - Swiss Army Knife, Spartan
03.90 - Maglite w/2-AA batteries
00.40 - Photon light w/"no hands" clip
01.00 - Compass*
03.00 - Cord, parachute-type (50')*
05.30 - Grooming kit*
-------------- Nail clippers - 0.60
-------------- Mirror (3'x4" plastic) - 0.90
-------------- Toothbrush - 0.80
-------------- Toothpaste - 1.00
-------------- Dental floss - 1.00
-------------- Packtowel- 0.70
-------------- Stuff sack - 0.35
04.00 - Toilet kit*
-------------- Toilet paper (in ZipLoc) - 3.70
-------------- Stuff sack - 0.30
08.00 - First-aid kit*
-------------- Stuff sack
06.00 - Miscellaneous/Repair kit*
-------------- Sewing items - 1.00
-------------- Whistle - 0.30
-------------- Stuff sack - 0.30
14.20 - Data pouch*
-------------- Wallet - 2.00
-------------- Thru-hiker's Handbook (2005 edition) - 6.80
-------------- Maps (for section being hiked) - 2.40
-------------- Notebook - 2.35
-------------- Pencil - 0.45
-------------- Large ZipLoc - 0.20
17.70 - Camera & Accessories
-------------- Olympus Stylus 400 digital w/battery and memory card - 7.00
-------------- Remote control - 0.40
-------------- Carrying case (attaches to pack belt) - 1.75*
-------------- Recharger w/o cord - 2.60
-------------- Battery - 1.20
-------------- Recharger cord - 1.50*
-------------- Litepod w/velco strap - 1.80
-------------- Lens brush/blower - 0.25
-------------- Stuff sack - 1.20
94.00 - Clothing*
16.00 - Rainwear, Marmot Minima Jacket*
02.00 - Food bag, nylon (w/o food)*

TOTAL PACK WEIGHT (so far) - 442.6 oz. (27 lbs. 6 oz.)

[TJ aka Teej]

14.20 - Data pouch*
-------------- Wallet - 2.00
-------------- ALDHA Thruhikers Companion and ATC Databook - 6.80
-------------- Maps (for section being hiked) - 2.40
-------------- Cellphone - 2.35
-------------- Pencil...


Ah HA!!!!!
:D

[A-Train]

It might be comical to some, but it's obviously worked 7 different times.

It's not a copyright issue, but I don't think its neccessarily a good thing to cut and paste his gear lists. It is his, discuss it on his site. Just my 2 cents. This is all getting old

[steve hiker]

Surprised he's bringing a 4.5 lb. Eureka tent and a 5 lb. pack. Eureka tent? C'mon Wingfoot, you can do better than that.

And that cellphone, he could bring a palm-size model and shave off a couple ounces!

[Tater]

Wingfoot Smingfoot, he'll be so dirty after a week nobody will recogize him.

[johnny quest]

why he kicked me off his site. oh, nevermind. i think i know. i finally got tired of his sticking in his political opinions into conversations about stove fuel. i mean, jeez. so i wrote a thread and within an hour i was personna non grata. here is what i wrote that got me booted:

when it sticks to the AThis is a great website. i agree with most of the attitude put forth about maintaining the sanctity (my word) of the thruhike and aspire to that standard when i do mine in 2008. but why cant you keep your political opinions to yourself, or at least start a website for them? im sure that the same people who are interested in your support of clark, no kerry, and your disgusted ruminations on president reagan (not your president? how silly. i never said that about bill clinton. that is just juvenile.)would happily go there to read your rants. in my opinion what your doing here is akin to a fire and brimstone preacher who owns a movie theatre, folks come in to see the free movie but he stops the film every 10 minutes to stand on a chair and preach. grow up a little, take some civility pills, and just do HERE what you obviously do best...be a caretaker of the AT.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.......Guess you'll have to figure it out, Jay. I know it's a toughie for ya. KZ@

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.......Look, we all can agree that he is a smart person who possesses a lot of knowledge about a lot of things......but, there are lot of other folks out there, also who have the same qualities. Why is it that he thinks he can manipulate and coerce others into 'thinking about things' like he does? The world is too big and too round for that. Most of us are smart enough to identify and reject this kind of 'inter-social garbage'. Just because a person has a web-site concerning a topic that we all love, dosen't give that person the right to use it as a tool to denigrate others or besmirk other people's opinions and ideas. In fact, if anything, he should provide an open and equitable playing field (within reason, as WB does), being as unbiased as possible, because that's simply said, 'The Right Thing To Do'. In not doing that, he is like a child in kindergarten who won't let anyone else play with the toys.....see where I'm coming from?
Hiking with him would, and could only be, an extension of his personality that he exhibits on his site. I'm sure he would bore me to death with his 'intellectuallity trip'.
Or, I'm smarter than you are, or I disagree with what you said, or I think I know more about that than you do.....and on, and on and on.....No thank you.....I rather hike with the wind and the trees and the water and the bees.KZ@;)

[johnny quest]

about the guy and now i know who he is. met him before 20 or 40 times. full of himself and knows everything so he is uninterested in others opinions. like i said above i finally got tired of all the political stuff and said so. and i got booted. so i came here and did a search for his name. i suspected maybe i wasnt the only one. and lo and behold... there are alot of trailplace expatriates. what a badge of honor as president clinton would say! no, that cant be right cause i emailed him and he wrote back that i was without honor for critisizing him. seems i swore some loyalty oath when i signed up for his website. my only question now is....does he wear a brown shirt when he hikes?

[icemanat95]

I've had my differences with Wingfoot over the years, but I have also found his friendship enjoyable. His generosity when I was in Hot Springs was unquestionable and unquestioning.

That Wingfoot is back on the trail is a GOOD THING. His time off the trail has allowed him to lose his focus a bit. Some real concentrated trail time should help him get sorted out again.

I wish Wingfoot well on his hike. Does anyone know where he's at now?

[Jack Tarlin]

As far as I know he's living in or near Conyers, GA, where he spends a great deal of time serving as principal caretaker to his elderly parents.

I also hope that his present responsibilities and obligations permit him to hike next year.

Anyone wishing to contact him can do so thru Trailplace, or by calling 770-679-0633 weekdays befor 6PM.

[Pencil Pusher]

------------

[johnny quest]

this is what i found on his site. where does it say you have to vote for kerry and hate bush?


Thank you for visiting Trailplace.com! Registration is free. Before you proceed, you must agree to the rules stated below:

Stay on Topic

This website is for discussing issues that affect the Appalachian Trail, hiking on the A.T., and those topics that are directly related to those two main topics. As a website member, you will be expected to stay on topic at all times, no exceptions. In addition, the website is intended to discuss and promote only uses of the A.T. that are in accordance with the official definition of the A.T. experience as defined by the ATC (Appalachian Trail Conference) Board of Managers, so make sure you read and agree with that definition before continuing (see Official Definition ).

The idea of enjoying the A.T.'s many recreational opportunities while preserving its unique wilderness values is key to understanding our viewpoint about Trail use, and you will see that use-but-don't-abuse approach reflected throughout our website. That's why you will not find some things discussed. For example, you will not find information about hiking to set a speed record, or information that will encourage you to use a cell phone in public spaces, or information that will help you thru-hike if all you really want to do is party hard with drugs or alcohol from Georgia to Maine. In other words, enabling any counter-productive uses of the A.T., whether they be environmentally or socially destructive or both, is simply unacceptable on our website. So that there can be no misunderstanding, here is a list of activities and attitudes that we do not discuss in a way that promotes, glorifies, or condones them on the Trail ...

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10) dishonesty in claiming "2,000 Miler" status

If you are new to the A.T. scene, you may think our policy against discussion that promotes, glorifies, or condones the above activities and attitudes is unfair, since arguments supporting them are not given an equal chance for expression, but we make no apology. Our policy is based on experience hard-won by years of administering A.T. forums in which allowing such arguments (whether or not they were backed up by any experience on, perspective about, or responsibility for the Trail) meant that the traditional A.T. message espoused by the few who had the most Trail experience and best Trail perspective usually got lost in all the noise made by the many who didn't.

As responsible Trail citizens, we simply do not want to diminish the A.T. as an outdoor recreation venue by providing discussions here that lead to erosion of the Trail's traditional wilderness values, so we focus on traditional values and uses only. If in doubt about the appropriateness of introducing a particular topic for discussion to the forum, check with the webmaster by e-mail before posting it to the forum. And, if you don't agree with the constraints of this website, please do not join with the intent of arguing to change them. Just find another website elsewhere on the internet that better suits your views.

Keep the Language Clean

The website is used by a variety of people from a variety of backgrounds, including children. It is intended for a family audience. We don't mind members being a little "earthy" in their language from time to time, but profanity and vulgarity should be avoided. Try to keep things "G-rated" at all times.

Never Advertise Other A.T. or Outdoor Sites without Permission

This website is provided as a place of discussion for Trailplace visitors who share the traditional approach to A.T. hiking (the idea being to try to get A.T. hikers to share what they know from first-hand experience), not as a referral site or a free advertising bulletin board for other A.T. or outdoor sites which may not share the traditional aproach to hiking on the Trail. Forum members should avoid posting links to other A.T. or outdoor sites in the forum. If you feel a site is worth mentioning, check with the administrator beforehand for permission to mention it (or better yet, include the site in the links in the "Hiker Resources" section of this website so that all Trailplace visitors can have access to it). In like manner, forum members should not advertise this forum on other A.T. sites without permission from the webmaster. This is just common courtesy.

Be Respectful of Others

The Appalachian Trail works well because people are generally respectful of one another. Website members are expected to practice the same type of respect in the forums. This means that there will be no flames or personal attacks permitted, including personal attacks, derogatory statements, or last-minute "parting shots" about Wingfoot (who provides this website), and that prohibition is absolute. In general, members should avoid criticizing one another in the forums or personalizing comments about various topics. It's okay to disagree with someone's opinion about the A.T. or hiking or whatever, but disagreement with someone's opinion should NEVER take the form of calling that person's character into question. Always, always be respectful of others.

Let the Administrator Do the Administrating

In the event there is a forum member who crosses the etiquette line and initiates a flame or attack on another member, or who posts derogatory or inflamatory remarks about someone in the Trail community, the webmaster will exercise authority to stop the abuse. When that happens, the administrative decisions of the administrator should never be interferred with or questioned openly on the forum by other members (you are invited to e-mail the webmaster privately off forum with your comments pro or con, of course). Openly challenging administration of the forum on the list or violating website or forum rules will be cause for automatic removal from the website.

The administrators on this site cannot be held liable for any of the messages you see posted on this site. While the moderators try to review as many posts as they can, they cannot catch all questionable material. If you see a post that you believe is in violation of the rules of this board, please click the "Report post" link to report it to a moderator.

In addition, please do not make vulgar, obscene, hateful, or racist posts on this website, and try to maintain the "Spirit of the Appalachian Trail" by showing respect and consideration at all times for one's fellow website users. In other words, help this website work harmoniously ... just like the real Appalachian Trail does!

[Pencil Pusher]

------------

[johnny quest]

thats the point. to sign up for his website you just have to agree to be nice and not badmouth wingfoot then you get in and he says in a thread itself that the whole site is dedicated to hating bush and if you disagree you will be blacklisted. comone man, we all disagree with each other on things...but this guy has problems!!!! he aint about the hike. he wants to tell you how to hike and how to vote.

[Pencil Pusher]

I think I only agreed to be nice and not badmouth on his website.

[johnny quest]

yeah, i think most folks of any political persuasion are tired of talking about it. i think even his friends and admirers are embarrassed by his antics. im still hot about him kicking me out and calling me "without honor" but frankly im getting tired of it too. he is unimportant and although his site is good otherwise, this site rocks too. so lets talk about hiking.

[A-Train]

Yes Pencil, this argument has been re-hashed on this site and others to death. Mostly everyone here is sick of discussing Wingfoot. Look, i've had my problems with the guy and have gotten booted off countless times even after providing helpful info that Wingfoot himself couldn't time and time again. But the fact is, its his website. If he wants to spew political banter and have rigid rules, well then thats his right. Don't go there if you don't like it, but analyzing it on another website will do little good.

[TJ aka Teej]

Real lovely dude,
God bless America. If you support his views then you should contribute to his site with money and posts and buy his book. If you don't, then you shouldn't. At least he's being honest about his political viewpoint, and I find honesty from Wingy a welcome change.

To make this AT related: The ATC supports Wingy by giving him the Databook information at no charge. Wingy then sells the free information for a profit, and uses part of that profit to pay for his website. Should your ATC dues support a website like Dan Bruce's?

If you are an ATC member, and have an opinion on this, perhaps you might want to email the ATC at [email protected] or [email protected] Wingy's a big fan of emailing folks, so I'm sure he won't mind.

[johnny quest]

so does the atc only give it to wingfoot or to anyone who wants it?

[Pencil Pusher]

http://www.aldha.org/comp_pdf.htm

As free as the internet...

[White Oak]

Mostly everyone here is sick of discussing Wingfoot.
From looking through some of the threads here, nobody gets tired of talking about Wingfoot. They may get winded for awhile, but after a few weeks the fire roars back up again, hot coals never dying out under the brush. He's deleted my posts too, so don't feel picked on.

Wingy, he keeps going and going and going and going and

[Pencil Pusher]

------------

[weary]

If you support his views then you should contribute to his site with money and posts and buy his book. If you don't, then you shouldn't. At least he's being honest about his political viewpoint, and I find honesty from Wingy a welcome change.



Hmmm. Wingfoot certainly marches to a different drummer. But I've never noticed dishonesty. Among the pleasant things about Trailplace is the absence of such unsupported accusations.

As for use of the databook information by Wingfoot. I think we all do that from time to time when we discuss trail mileages. Using the words of others is certainly dishonest. But facts are facts and are pretty much in the public domain, though lawyers talk of "intellectual property rights." For what it's worth, I think only irrational wingfoot haters should complain to ATC.

The rest of us should just live and let live.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

The rest of us should just live and let live.

Weary


as should wingy

[weary]

as should wingy

But, of course, Wingfoot does live and let live. He has never mentioned Whiteblaze on his site. It is folks over here that seem obsessed with such petty differences of perspective. Personally, I think Wingfoot would be more effective in achieving his goals if he let up a bit.

But that is his decision to make, not ours. Wingfoot has set up rules for participation in his game. Those that don't like his game, should create their own and stop bitchin about his.

It's easy to throw around accusations as TJ did, prompting my re-entry into this debate. It's more difficult to support those accusations as I suspect TJ knows, which may be why we haven't heard from him since.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

But, of course, Wingfoot does live and let live.

Weary


Weary..of course he can run his site any way he chooses...but I'm speaking of the bigger picture ...and other aspects of his behaviors and attitudes...
course the boy lives in my homwetown.

[TJ aka Teej]

so does the atc only give it to wingfoot or to anyone who wants it?
Hi Johnny,
Apparently Wingy is the only person outside the organization who profits from the ATC's DataBook information.

[TJ aka Teej]

For what it's worth, I think only irrational wingfoot haters should complain to ATC.

The rest of us should just live and let live.

Weary
Too funny! Trailplace's Weary calls ATC members with serious concerns regarding the use of their donations "irrational" and then offers "live and let live" as his personal credo. Weary, and wasn't it you who sent me the quote from Trailplace where Wingy makes an unsupported accusation about me? You really need decide exactly which side of what story you're going to preach, and that goes for what you say in private as well as what you post publically.

[weary]

wasn't it you who sent me the quote from Trailplace where Wingy makes an unsupported accusation about me? .

No. I've never seen anything to suggest that Wingfoot even knows who you are.

[TJ aka Teej]

It's easy to throw around accusations as TJ did, prompting my re-entry into this debate. It's more difficult to support those accusations as I suspect TJ knows, which may be why we haven't heard from him since.

Weary
"those accusations"? Plural? There he goes again, getting all Wingy on us.
Please, Weary. Post for us ALL the many accusations in the post that I "threw around" before mysteriously (in your mind) disappearing for almost a whole day.

[TJ aka Teej]

No. I've never seen anything to suggest that Wingfoot even knows who you are.
You were in on the email propaganda campaign he waged after I exposed his falsehoods claiming he stopped the Putnam Mine with emails, Weary. You *do* know that your posts on other forums are archived, aren't you?

[weary]

You were in on the email propaganda campaign he waged after I exposed his falsehoods claiming he stopped the Putnam Mine with emails, Weary. You *do* know that your posts on other forums are archived, aren't you?

There's a difference between dishonesty and delusion. Some people think, for instance, that I was responsible for the recovery of 400,000 acres of long lost public lands in Maine. My reports were the first mention of these lands in the popular press as near as I can tell. I did in fact write about these lands for many years and eventually they returned to public ownership.

But I remind myself from time to time of the Indian rain dance syndrome. If Indians dance long enough it will surely rain. But there may not necessarily be a connection between the dancing and the rain.

Wingfoot certainly believes he helped stop the Putnam mine. He certainly spurred a lot of public comment. Neither he nor we will ever know for sure what impact if any these messages may have had. Wingfoot dances (speaks). Things happen.

I like to think words and messages from time to time have impact.

Weary

Weary

[Skeemer]

In another thread you were applauding Wingfoot's many accomplishments:

Originally posted by Weary
Wingfoot is a very complex individual who has devoted much of his adult life to the trail and to protecting the trail.

He has done tremendous good, attempted and failed at even greater good, and, sadly, often does dumb things that damage his efforts. I would rather see much of Wingfoot on this and other sites. Wisdom, however flawed its wrappings, remains important.

And I asked....

Would you care to elaborate? What makes this guy so complex...seems to me he's pretty straight forward and simple...it's my way or the highway.

And tremendous good? Geez, maybe some good... but tremendous is a little strong don't you think...tell me more why you love this guy. So what if he has a good guide book that is helpfull but he does make a buck off of it...what else has he done that's not been self-serving...I'd really like to know.

Help me out here Weary...list a few of his unselfish acts or even one or two great accomplishments.

[TJ aka Teej]

Neither he nor we will ever know for sure what impact if any these messages may have had.

The State Mining Commision ruled early on, just days after the first public meeting and several months before Wingy's entrance, that the Putnam Mine decision would be made in accordance to existing law without regard to public input. The Mining Commision stated that they intended to revoke the permit, that the permit was issued in error, and that any appeal would have no merit. Yes indeed, the ATC, the AHS, the at-l, the local Trail groups, and Trailplace were responsible for lots of emails, most sent during the appeal stage many months after the Mining Commision announced it's intent to revoke the permit. I'm pretty sure the Mining Commision knows what impact those messages had, Weary.

Weary typed: "There's a difference between dishonesty and delusion."
Well, O.K. Maybe he's just deluded.

[Pencil Pusher]

I can't imagine this is the first time you old-timers of Whiteblaze have argued these points about Wingfoot:rolleyes: Has any one of you changed your minds since?

[weary]

In another thread you were applauding Wingfoot's many accomplishments:

.... Help me out here Weary...list a few of his unselfish acts or even one or two great accomplishments.

Well, as noted above accomplishments are hard to catalog (remember those dancing Indians), but I think producing the major guide used by most thru hikers for the past decade is an accomplishment.

I think his championing the trail as a wild preserve and his resistance to the partying atmosphere is an accomplishment. I think his work in promoting protection of Saddlback is an accplishment. I think that probably his insistence on running a site with standards is an accomplishment. I think his championing of every attempt o protect the trail environment is an accomplishment.

I know. You think these were just selfish interests, and therefore don't count. But people still have to earn a living. I got paid for my stories about Maine's forgotten public lands in both money and pyschic satisfaction. But the 400,000 acres continue to be enjoyed by many thousands of hikers and campers.

I suspect I could have made more money doing other things. But as someone has said, "no one on their death beds regret the mountains they have climbed."

Wingfoot is a bit younger than I am, but I think when the end comes (I hear a rumor that the mortalities among humans is 100 percent) Wingfoot will have few regrets. My regrets will be that I lacked the rhetoric needed to really protect the trail in Maine during the few short years that the land was available.

Weary

[Needles]

God bless America. If you support his views then you should contribute to his site with money and posts and buy his book. If you don't, then you shouldn't. At least he's being honest about his political viewpoint, and I find honesty from Wingy a welcome change.

Wingfoot, if anything, is honest to a fault. He believes in speaking his mind and could care less who it offends, as far as society in general is concerned, I find this a welcome change.


To make this AT related: The ATC supports Wingy by giving him the Databook information at no charge. Wingy then sells the free information for a profit, and uses part of that profit to pay for his website. Should your ATC dues support a website like Dan Bruce's?

If you are an ATC member, and have an opinion on this, perhaps you might want to email the ATC at [email protected] or [email protected] Wingy's a big fan of emailing folks, so I'm sure he won't mind.

Over the past few years the ATC has given Wingfoot mileage information from the Databook for free, before that he got it from the clubs, this meant that sometimes his information and the Databook's info would be slightly at odds, it was never a large discrepency, and from year to year the book that was most acurate varied. Mainly because of when the books were published and who got the information from a particular area at the latest date. I think that the ATC might think that having the books agree was in everyone's, including the hiker's, best interest and so they decided to let Wingfoot have the info since such a large number of hiker's use his book. But let's not forget that his book is much more than just mileage figures. Wingfoot puts a ton of work into Handbook each year, I know, I have seen him work on it, and I see no reason why he shouldn't be compensated for his work. He certainly isn't getting rich off the Handbook, the market for it is so small that no one could ever make anything but the most meager of livings from an item like this.

However if you are so upset that the ATC is doing something that might benefit Wingfoot in some small way (sales of the handbook haven't suddenly jumped since the ATC started providing mileage info as far as I know) that you would think of ending your support for the ATC and encouraging others to do so (cause we both know if the ATC just gets a few emails without seeing any decline in membership they won't see it as an important enough issue to make any changes in their policy), then by all means, drop your membership. Personally I see this as a rather trivial matter and would hate to see the ATC loose some of the money it needs to do the things we all want it to do just because you dislike Wingfoot, but hey TJ do what you feel you have to do.

[johnny quest]

i dont know that anyone has suggested that wingfoot...on anyone...shouldnt profit on their work. im a hardcore capitalist and im jealous i didnt think of it. and if the info is available to everyone...and that is all i was asking...there is no reason someone else cant come along if they want and attempt to make a better product and compete with him. god bless america! in fact you could stretch and say that the new bandana maps are in a way a competition...and a choice for hikers...with the data book.

on another subject though, my momma taught me...and as i age i find this to be more and more true....that sometimes totally honesty is just an excuse for bad manners. like many of us, mr wingfoot has bad manners. in fact, for all his pluses he is an *******. and life is too short to hangout with ********. as someone on this thread put it, we dont have to go there (trailplace). i didnt know that the first time i wrote about wingfoot. i had just been booted from trailplace and was upset at what i had lost in info and hiking community. but as i explored this website and met its denizens i came to realize i didnt lose any thing. and with that i will leave mr wingfoot alone to live his life. who knows, maybe one day i will start my own databook and website and run him out of business. nah!

[TJ aka Teej]

Wingfoot, if anything, is honest to a fault. >snip< Personally I see this as a rather trivial matter and would hate to see the ATC loose some of the money it needs to do the things we all want it to do just because you dislike Wingfoot

Hi Needles, long time. We haven't talked since Wingy was sending emails around about me a few years back. That's quite a long post for something you see as "trivial". Where did you see anything about disliking Wingy? Pay attention - he's running a rabidly one-sided political website that is supported in part by ATC funds. That could be legally troublesome for the ATC. Where did you see anyone wanting the ATC to "loose" money? If they stop giving Wingy something to sell they'll "loose" money? How? You're reading with predjudice, Needles.

What I posted was:

Should your ATC dues support a website like Dan Bruce's?

If you are an ATC member, and have an opinion on this, perhaps you might want to email the ATC at [email protected] or [email protected]
Perhaps you might try responding to what posts actually say, and not what you've been told they say, Needles. And naught for nothing, I support the same candidate he does. But unlike him I respect the truly American need for all sides to be heard, and unlike him I'm not running a website that supports a certain candidate while accepting help from a non-profit organization that by law cannot support individual candidates.

hope this helps,
TJ

[Needles]

Hi Needles, long time. We haven't talked since Wingy was sending emails around about me a few years back. That's quite a long post for something you see as "trivial". Where did you see anything about disliking Wingy? Pay attention - he's running a rabidly one-sided political website that is supported in part by ATC funds. That could be legally troublesome for the ATC. Where did you see anyone wanting the ATC to "loose" money? If they stop giving Wingy something to sell they'll "loose" money? How? You're reading with predjudice, Needles.

Hi Tj,
Maybe you should read my post carefully, I never said that if the ATC stopped giving data to Wingfoot that the ATC would loose money, however you are the one who raised the question about should our dues be helping to support a site like Wingfoot's. The only thing I can take from that is that you support people dropping their memberships unless the ATC stops giving this data to Wingfoot, and people dropping their memberships would cost the ATC money. Please TJ, respond to what I say and not to the words you are attempting to put into my mouth.


What I posted was:

Perhaps you might try responding to what posts actually say, and not what you've been told they say, Needles. And naught for nothing, I support the same candidate he does. But unlike him I respect the truly American need for all sides to be heard, and unlike him I'm not running a website that supports a certain candidate while accepting help from a non-profit organization that by law cannot support individual candidates.

hope this helps,
TJ

TJ, this is a huge stretch, because an organization makes info available and someone then uses that info who ALSO runs a website that endorses a candidate could never be skewed into saying that the non-profit organization supports the same, or any candidate. You are fishing for issues and this simply isn't one. If the ATC put a Kerry or Bush banner up on their site they would be in trouble, what you are attempting to claim however is well beyond the realms of logic and reason.
By the way, the truly American need for all sides to be heard is being met, the Bush camp is getting their message out pretty strongly, and there are litteraly thousands of websites out there who are endorsing one candidate or the other without allowing opposing positions to be aired. Wingfoot has served in the military, fought to protect the national treasure which is the AT, and he makes full use of his first amendment rights and voices his opinion strongly. I hope you are not inferring that Wingfoot is un-American as to do so would make you completely wrong and would simply reinforce my beliefe that your attacks on Wingfoot have nothing to do with the trail and everything to do with your personal dislike of the man.

[smokymtnsteve]

wingfoot is a oppourtunist..

[Needles]

he's running a rabidly one-sided political website that is supported in part by ATC funds.

I forgot to mention this, the ATC produces the Databook and collects the information for publication in the Databook. They have been doing this for a long time, much longer than they have been providing this same information to Wingfoot. So, since the ATC isn't spending any money they wouldn't have spent any way how are they supporting anything Wingfoot does with ATC funds? :)

[weary]

wingfoot is a oppourtunist..

If so, he's not very skilled at it. Of all the hundreds (thousands?) of people who make make a living off the trail, I suspect Wingfoot is the poorest. But thanks for the thread anyway. It reminds me that It take time to open up Trailplace again. It's been a couple of months since I dropped in.

BTW, TJ, ATC has a perfect right to provide information to a book about the trail. Even Republicans couldn't make an issue of that, regardless of the politics of the author and publisher.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

...you are the one who raised the question about should our dues be helping to support a site like Wingfoot's. The only thing I can take from that is that you support people dropping their memberships unless the ATC stops giving this data to Wingfoot, and people dropping their memberships would cost the ATC money. Please TJ, respond to what I say...
What I typed was this:

Should your ATC dues support a website like Dan Bruce's?

If you are an ATC member, and have an opinion on this, perhaps you might want to email the ATC at [email protected] or [email protected]
Are you an ATC member, Needles? Do you have an opinon on this? If you are, and if you do, perhaps you might want to email the ATC.

[TJ aka Teej]

.. since the ATC isn't spending any money they wouldn't have spent any way how are they supporting anything Wingfoot does with ATC funds?
They give him something for free which he sells for a profit, Needles.

[Pencil Pusher]

TJ, how come you have such strong opinions on Dan? You're obviously the most vocal, I've browsed through similar threads as well. Are you simply a concerned citizen or is there another angle?

[TJ aka Teej]

BTW, TJ, ATC has a perfect right to provide information to a book about the trail.
That's super, Weary. You hear so little about 'perfect rights' anymore in this Ashcroftic world. Now, to the point about which we are posting: Is giving financial aid to a political website a violation of the conditions of the ATC's not-for-profit tax status? What about violating the trust of those ATC members who support the current president? Should the ATC be supporting his opponent, even if it is in a covert manner?

[TJ aka Teej]

TJ, how come you have such strong opinions on Dan? You're obviously the most vocal, I've browsed through similar threads as well. Are you simply a concerned citizen or is there another angle?
Good question, Pencil. Long ago, Wingy was just another hiker on the at-l email list. When he left, I supported his new website, his new email list, and contributed to his forum and guidebook. My son and I sent him rocks from the AT in New Hampshire for a memorial he was planning for Earl, and I even participated in his forums and email efforts. But he became too anti-ATC, anti-ALDHA, anti at-l, anti-anything that didn't feature Him. And then there was the year he didn't produce a guidebook, but kept taking checks while assuring folks his book was on the way. I cautioned him about not opposing the ATC's plan to save Saddleback, and advised him on an approach that wouldn't turn off the locals, but he didn't take my advice. Since then, it's become obvious he has placed the Trail beneath his own ego on his list of personal priorities. That became extremely obvious to many when he waged an email campaign to garner credit for something he didn't do. He's crafted a web-persona and book jacket personality that I think he wants others to believe, instead of just being honest about himself. That has Needles and Weary calling him "honest", but when I ask about the gear he claims to test for manufactures and the backpacking seminars he claims he puts on, I'm called a 'hater'. He's mentioned me to some of the service providers on the AT section I write about for the ALDHA Thru-Hikers Companion, bad-mouthed me on his website, and even started an email gossip loop targeting me that Weary participated in when he was demanding credit for doing something that he simply did not do. Wingy seems to think many odd things, for instance a while back on the ATML he told a poster "You won't hike a mile of the AT you can't thank me in some way for." That's a really bizarre thing to think about yourself, wouldn't you agree? I'm in another camp I guess - one articulated best by Myron Avery, the man from Maine who built the AT. He said: "... that the Trail might well have been called 'the Anonymous Trail.' Volunteers who have asked for no return nor recognition nor reward. They have contributed to the project simply by reason of the pleasure found in trail-making and in the realization that they were, perhaps, creating something which would be a distinct contribution to the American recreational system and the training of the American people." Good words to think on, and ones I certainly can't improve upon.

[Needles]

That's super, Weary. You hear so little about 'perfect rights' anymore in this Ashcroftic world. Now, to the point about which we are posting: Is giving financial aid to a political website a violation of the conditions of the ATC's not-for-profit tax status? What about violating the trust of those ATC members who support the current president? Should the ATC be supporting his opponent, even if it is in a covert manner?

That is a very good querstion TJ, but since the ATC has never given financial aid to Wingfoot's web site in any way shape or form I have to wonder how it relates to this discussion? Giving information, even if the party who receives it resells the information, is not the same as giving financial aid. For example, I give you permission to sell the text I have just typed to anyone you can find who would like to purchase it. Even if you find someone to buy it the IRS could care less, now if I had given you money they might care, but information and money are not the same thing.

Furthermore the ATC isn't supporting a candidate, they are giving Wingfoot the right to use information they have collected. If the ATC gave me a t-shirt (which would actually be closer to a financial donation than what they are giving Wingfoot) and I wrote on the back of the shirt "F*%#$ Bush!" or "F&*^% Kerry!" would this mean that the ATC was supporting a political candidate? Not by any stretch of the imagination. It would mean that the ATC gave me a t-shirt and that I support a political candidate, the two are not arguably connected in any way.

TJ, you are obviously an intelligent person, how come you keep beating this completely illogical dead horse?

[johnny quest]

blah blah

this is getting old guys. i think we all need to go get a drink and/or a woman.

[TJ aka Teej]

since the ATC has never given financial aid to Wingfoot's web site in any way shape or form
We disagree on that, Needles. How much did the ATC give him when he sued them? What worth would Wingy's book be without the Databook info?

[Needles]

Good question, Pencil. Long ago, Wingy was just another hiker on the at-l email list. When he left, I supported his new website, his new email list, and contributed to his forum and guidebook. My son and I sent him rocks from the AT in New Hampshire for a memorial he was planning for Earl, and I even participated in his forums and email efforts. But he became too anti-ATC, anti-ALDHA, anti at-l, anti-anything that didn't feature Him. And then there was the year he didn't produce a guidebook, but kept taking checks while assuring folks his book was on the way. I cautioned him about not opposing the ATC's plan to save Saddleback, and advised him on an approach that wouldn't turn off the locals, but he didn't take my advice. Since then, it's become obvious he has placed the Trail beneath his own ego on his list of personal priorities. That became extremely obvious to many when he waged an email campaign to garner credit for something he didn't do. He's crafted a web-persona and book jacket personality that I think he wants others to believe, instead of just being honest about himself. That has Needles and Weary calling him "honest", but when I ask about the gear he claims to test for manufactures and the backpacking seminars he claims he puts on, I'm called a 'hater'. He's mentioned me to some of the service providers on the AT section I write about for the ALDHA Thru-Hikers Companion, bad-mouthed me on his website, and even started an email gossip loop targeting me that Weary participated in when he was demanding credit for doing something that he simply did not do. Wingy seems to think many odd things, for instance a while back on the ATML he told a poster "You won't hike a mile of the AT you can't thank me in some way for." That's a really bizarre thing to think about yourself, wouldn't you agree? I'm in another camp I guess - one articulated best by Myron Avery, the man from Maine who built the AT. He said: "... that the Trail might well have been called 'the Anonymous Trail.' Volunteers who have asked for no return nor recognition nor reward. They have contributed to the project simply by reason of the pleasure found in trail-making and in the realization that they were, perhaps, creating something which would be a distinct contribution to the American recreational system and the training of the American people." Good words to think on, and ones I certainly can't improve upon.

First of all Wingfoot has had disagreements with both ALDHA and the ATC, you claim that myself and Weary have some sort of cult like devotion to Wingfoot, but if you think that ALDHA and the ATC are perfect maybe we should be questioning your reasoning abilities.

Yes, one year he didn't produce a guidebook, if you can find any proof that someone sent in a check to Wingfoot and never received either a refund or a book, please let me know. I will take this up with Dan personally. If you can't offer us any proof of this then please apologize publicly to Wingfoot for making this accusation.

On Saddleback Dan opposed the ATC because the ATC was willing to give it all away and was wrong on this issue. You do not go into negotiations like this asking for the bare minimum because you have to assume that durring the negotiations comprimises will be made and you could likely get less than what you need. I feel that if the ATC had handled this on their own without the campaign Wingfoot ran we might have found a shopping mall at the top of Saddleback.

As far as the persona you say he has created, do you know him well enough to say if the persona is true or not? How much time have you spent talking with Wingfoot face to face? Have you ever hiked with him? It seems to me you are happy to just look at everything he says as a lie and assume all of his actions are laced with alterior motives instead of ever giving the man the benifit of the doubt. You know what, I didn't respond to the post that called Dan an a**hole, cause he certainly can be, he also doesn't have a lot of trust in people any more, he can be abrasive, and he certainly thinks of himself as very important in the AT community. Nope he isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but he has done a LOT to help hikers and the trail, to claim otherwise just shows you aren't at all interested in the truth. Can you claim to have done half or even a tenth of what Wingfoot has done to help out hikers and prospective hikers? Have you spent years talking with hikers on the phone at all hours of the day, giving out advice even if they simply wrote down Dan's phone number in the bookstore instead of buying his book? Have you created and maintained a website for hikers (even if you don't agree with how Trailplace is run) which has been used by thousands of hikers and never charged for a single bit of the content on the site?

TJ, you are really good at complaining and throwing around hurtful accusations, but that's all I can see you are good at. I have enjoyed both Trailplace and Whiteblaze and feel they are both valuable resources, but I may stop visiting whiteblaze. No one ever talks about whiteblaze or TJ or anyone else who dislikes Wingfoot on Trailplace and because of this it really is turning into the more enjoyable site. Please TJ, don't let your personal animosity towards Wingfoot spoil whiteblaze.net for the rest of us.

[Needles]

We disagree on that, Needles. How much did the ATC give him when he sued them? What worth would Wingy's book be without the Databook info?

Maybe he should sue you for defamation, he never sued the ATC, yes, he mentioned that he might be able to, but he never did.

And he could still get the info from the clubs just like he did for years before the ATC gave him the Databook info, I think it is great that the ATC was generous with this info, but if they stoped giving it to Wingfoot it would not change the value of the Handbook, the Handbook existed before the ATC gave Dan the info and would continue to exist if they stopped providing the info.

[johnny quest]

i think the reason you dont read about whiteblaze or this or that person on his website is cause....its not allowed to mention them. it is censored for such things. neat thing about this thread...though it is getting old...like a car crash, i cant stop looking....is that all this neat debate and jabbering and arguing and pissing and moaning...wouldnt be allowed THERE.

[Needles]

i think the reason you dont read about whiteblaze or this or that person on his website is cause....its not allowed to mention them. it is censored for such things. neat thing about this thread...though it is getting old...like a car crash, i cant stop looking....is that all this neat debate and jabbering and arguing and pissing and moaning...wouldnt be allowed THERE.

Nope, it wouldn't be allowed there, but is that ALWAYS a bad thing?

[TJ aka Teej]

...you claim that myself and Weary have some sort of cult like devotion to Wingfoot
Is that what Wingy told you? I didn't say that. If I had, I would've used the word "toady", which seems much more accurate.

[steve hiker]

... all this neat debate and jabbering and arguing and pissing and moaning...
Remember this one? Pissing and moaning at its best. It don't hardly get better than this:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3531&highlight=regulations

[johnny quest]

your question caught me by surprise. so i stopped and really considered it. and yes, it is a bad thing. almost always. think about it guys. these are websites, clubs if you will, of like-interested people across the country and even the world, sharing thoughts, ideas experiences and opinions. and as cool as it is...that is all that it is. and if you are going to run or host or offer such a thing...then you can do it in the spirit of open forum and free flowin dialog. or you can take the childish attitude of "this is my yard and my ball and we are going to follow my rules or you can all go home."

my small amount of experience with wingfoot is that he has done just that. to me and many others. and those of you that are still there either like and agree with his rules or just havent pissed him off yet. im the guy that called him an ******* and if i ever had reason to talk to him again i wouldnt shirk from that statement. the guy has a problem.
but i have a problem too if after a certain amount of pissing and moaning i dont go to another yard and join a new game.

i cant speak to all that other stuff about saving this trail or suing this club or badmouthing this guy. wasnt there. dont know anything about that. not to say that some of you oldtimers dont and cant talk about it. go for it. and you friends of his...god bless you. i like to think my friends would defend me so strongly.

[TJ aka Teej]

Maybe he should sue you for defamation, he never sued the ATC, yes, he mentioned that he might be able to, but he never did.
Really? And your source of information was... Wingy?

[Jack Tarlin]

Needles---

1. It'd be shame if you stopped visiting here because you disagree with the postings of one person. There are thousands of other participants here. Your displeasure over the tone of Teej's posts is something you can get over; the easiest thing to do is to ignore them.

2. Your statement that nobody talks trash about Whiteblaze on Trailplace is true, but is also a bit disingenuous: The main reason nobody talks about Whiteblaze over there is becuse it's forbidden to mention the existence of this site or to even speak its name. It's the most popular interactive site on the Internet for planning and preparing a long-distance hike on the A.T., yet nobody who visits Trailplace will ever hear about it---you can't mention it, you can't cite it, you can't steer people to it, you can't find it in the "Links" to interesting sites. So for you to imply that TP is operating on some sort of higher moral plane than Whiteblaze because Whiteblaze never gets slammed over there is ridiculous: It's kinda hard to slam a resource that one is flatly forbidden to name. It is absolutely verboten on Trailplace to even mention the name or address of any other Trail resource without permission, and this is permission that one isn't likely to receive. So for you to suggest that Trailplace is somehow elevated because there's nothing negative said there about other resources is more than a little absurd: Of course nothing is siad over there about Whiteblaze, nothing bad, good, or indifferent. Nothing at all.

3. Likewise, in the same vein, no Needles, you'll see no criticism of Wingfoot on Trailplace. Nor will you see ANY strong disagreement with his commentary, pronouncements, suggestions, ideas. In fact, it explicitly states in the Introduction to Trailplace that such dialogue is simply not permitted there, and is grounds for immediate expulsion from the site. So Needles, for you to say that there's no criticism of Wingfoot there doesn't necessarily mean that it's a wonderful amicable place where everyone operates in perfect harmony and amity. All it means is that one is simply not permitted to question or challenge the viewpoint of the site's administrator, at least not without some risk.

4. You seem to think that this sort of atmosphere makes for a better, or more "enjoyable" site. To each their own. Personally, I prefer a site where things may get a bit heated at times, but at least different viewpoints are allowed to be heard, and one can comment freely and openly, without constantly operating under constraints from an overly sensitive site administration. Sorry, Needles, but a site where one has to spend so much time tailoring one's posts so they're acceptable to site management, and a site where vocal disagreement with site administration is not permitted and is grounds for immediate expulsion from the site----well this, to me, is not what I call enjoyable.

5. That being said, I agree with you that Teej's Wingfoot fixation, which has been going on now for years, is unfortunate and tiresome. Weary and Teej have been going on about this for eons now, all over the Internet, first on the at-l mailing list, and now, regrettably, over here. (It should be mentioned that this constant bickering was absolutely a factor in the decline of that list).

6. A King Solomon suggestion: Option One: Weary and Teej have to spend six months together as hiking partners until they agree to let this matter go.
Option Two: Teej and Wingfoot have to do likewise. Option Three: Put the three of them on a desert island and come back in a year and rescue whoever's still alive. Option Four: Same as Option Three, except don't return to the island at all. Best suggestion of all: Ignore writers, posts or threads you don't care for; the threads will eventually die on their own accord as more people tire of them. But Needles, to walk away from a site with thousands of members because you're upset at the writings of one guy----well this seems a bit excessive. Just remember, if you leave here, you're always welcome back....too bad that isn't true of every informational site, but then again, it's kinda hard to get kicked outta here, which right away says a lot about Whiteblaze, and distinguishes Whiteblaze from sites such as .......well, no. I'm ALLOWED to mention other places and can do so without fear of punishment, which is nice; I just don't feel like doing it.

And that distinction, Needles, is kinda what we're talking about here.

[Needles]

Needles---

2. Your statement that nobody talks trash about Whiteblaze on Trailplace is true, but is also a bit disingenuous: The main reason nobody talks about Whiteblaze over there is becuse it's forbidden to mention the existence of this site or to even speak its name.

Agreed, Wingfoot restricts what can be said on his site, no argument there. This doesn't mean people never disagree with him, if you read through the posts you will find people disagreeing with him all the time. But if you post certain things he will remove them and possibly you from his site. If you came tyo my house and started saying certain things I might kick you out as well. Would I like to see his site more open? Yes, no doubt about it. Think about what would happen if he let anything go on his site though, very shortly the few people out there like TJ would start using Trailplace to attack Wingfoot along with Whiteblaze, then Trailplace wouldn't just be of diminished value, it would be of no value. If these kind of discussions were allowed on Trailplace that's all trailplace would be because Dan is such a polarizing figure. For Trailplace to have any value to hikers he has to limit the comments, if for no other reason than Dan has other things to do than constantly defend himself against half truths, accusations, and out-right lies.


3. Likewise, in the same vein, no Needles, you'll see no criticism of Wingfoot on Trailplace. Nor will you see ANY strong disagreement with his commentary, pronouncements, suggestions, ideas. In fact, it explicitly states in the Introduction to Trailplace that such dialogue is simply not permitted there, and is grounds for immediate expulsion from the site. So Needles, for you to say that there's no criticism of Wingfoot there doesn't necessarily mean that it's a wonderful amicable place where everyone operates in perfect harmony and amity. All it means is that one is simply not permitted to question or challenge the viewpoint of the site's administrator, at least not without some risk.

I will disagree with you here, you do see disagreements with Wingfoot on Trailplace, Dan likes alcohol stoves, if you think they are a waste then feel free to say so, your post won't get deleted and you won't get kicked off the site. However, if you think Dan is a meglomanical fiend and an insane idiot and you post this on his site he will remove you, quickly. He will not allow anyone to attack him personally, but everyone is free to disagree with him on hiking issues or even political issues. I have read posts on trailplace from people saying that think it is wrong for Dan to trun the site into a political forum. That he allows, just don't say that you think Bush is a better choice than Kerry, he doesn't allow that and states this very plainly.


4. You seem to think that this sort of atmosphere makes for a better, or more "enjoyable" site. To each their own. Personally, I prefer a site where things may get a bit heated at times, but at least different viewpoints are allowed to be heard, and one can comment freely and openly, without constantly operating under constraints from an overly sensitive site administration. Sorry, Needles, but a site where one has to spend so much time tailoring one's posts so they're acceptable to site management, and a site where vocal disagreement with site administration is not permitted and is grounds for immediate expulsion from the site----well this, to me, is not what I call enjoyable.

I can see why you would feel this, although I have never felt that I had to be exceptionally careful not to offend Wingfoot, and have made posts that disagreed with him. Don't worry, he doesn't play favorites, he has kicked me off his mailing list in the past for something I said, but I had violated his rules. I chose to be on his list and so I chose to abide by his rules, it was my fault I got kicked off not Dan's. What if I don't feel he has the right to hold me to his rules? Simple, I shouldn't be on his list or his site. But I won't claim that his site is for everyone, if you don't like it or don't find it useful then fine, don't use it. But why should Whiteblaze users find the boards here filled with such vitriole against Wingfoot and the corresponding posts from people like me who feel they should stand up to attacks against a friend?



6. A King Solomon suggestion: Option One: Weary and Teej have to spend six months together as hiking partners until they agree to let this matter go.
Option Two: Teej and Wingfoot have to do likewise. Option Three: Put the three of them on a desert island and come back in a year and rescue whoever's still alive. Option Four: Same as Option Three, except don't return to the island at all. Best suggestion of all: Ignore writers, posts or threads you don't care for; the threads will eventually die on their own accord as more people tire of them. But Needles, to walk away from a site with thousands of members because you're upset at the writings of one guy----well this seems a bit excessive. Just remember, if you leave here, you're always welcome back....too bad that isn't true of every informational site, but then again, it's kinda hard to get kicked outta here, which right away says a lot about Whiteblaze, and distinguishes Whiteblaze from sites such as .......well, no. I'm ALLOWED to mention other places and can do so without fear of punishment, which is nice; I just don't feel like doing it.

And that distinction, Needles, is kinda what we're talking about here.

This site, luckily, doesn't have a group of people out to destroy it and so it has that luxury, I hope that never changes. But think of my perspective Jack, I have known Wingfoot for years, he is a friend of mine, I know him as an opinionated, intelligent, kind, generous, and often times frustraing person. And this is how I knew him before he ever got access to the internet. So I know him as a person and not just as an internet personality. I find it very offensive to see people attacking and telling lies about one of my friends, when I know that this sort of thing goes on at whiteblaze on a regular basis how can it not effect how much I enjoy the site?

[Needles]

Really? And your source of information was... Wingy?

You brought up a Dan suing the ATC first, what is your source of information?

[weary]

...Now, to the point about which we are posting: Is giving financial aid to a political website a violation of the conditions of the ATC's not-for-profit tax status? ?


ATC has not given financial aid to a political website. It has allowed information that it has collected to be used in a book devoted to publicizing that information.


...What about violating the trust of those ATC members who support the current president? Should the ATC be supporting his opponent, even if it is in a covert manner? ?

Probably, given the president's horrible environmental record. But allowing mileage information about the trail to be used in a book in no way either supports or condemns the president. Having dealt with copyright laws for most of my adult life, it's not particularly clear to me that Wingfoot even needs ATC's permission. Facts cannot be copyrighted. Only words and intellectual property rights.

But does ATC own the mileage figures? They certainly would if they had paid people to collect them. But I've collected mileage figures. I never gave anyone permission to use them, nor have I denied anyone that permission. I, and I suspect every other trail volunteer, runs measuring wheels on trails partly out of curiosity, partly out of a desire to be helpful to trail users, which the sales of Wingfoot's book suggest is in fact helpful.

But, regardless, tell us TJ, which passages do you find in Wingfoot's "Thru-hikers Handbook" that support or condemn Bush.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

Weary and Teej have been going on about this for eons now, all over the Internet, first on the at-l mailing list, and now, regrettably, over here. (It should be mentioned that this constant bickering was absolutely a factor in the decline of that list).
No doubt you were hiking at the time, but the "decline" of the at-l was directly related to two TrailPlace members who joined and began intentionally disrupting what was at the time the Internet's best AT resource. One that had a welcoming atmosphere we likened to a friendly campfire. I contend they were sent on purpose, fueled by jealousy. The at-l has lost some members, but has a legacy as the Web's original AT email list, with amazing accomplishments that include the expansion of ALDHA and the Gatherings, the creation of the Rucks, and many Trail projects - not the least being raising several thousand dollars to rebuild and save The Place in Damascus. Soon after the two TrailPlace posters joined our list and began disrupting it, Wingy was posting with delight on TrailPlace about the discord they created.

[smokymtnsteve]

as I have said before Wingy is an oppourtunist.

[TJ aka Teej]

ATC has not given financial aid to a political website.
Spin all you want to Weary, just don't get so dizzy you fall off your chair. The fact is the ATC is supporting TrailPlace/Wingy by giving it/him something of value to sell.

[Needles]

Spin all you want to Weary, just don't get so dizzy you fall off your chair. The fact is the ATC is supporting TrailPlace/Wingy by giving it/him something of value to sell.

Anyone else remember the old TV commercial where the boy asks the wise old owl "How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?"

Well TJ, here is my question for you, how many times do you have to repeat it before you start believing your own crap? Obviously you should know since you seem to believe your own crap.

[smokymtnsteve]

In this case it appears that TJ bit into the tootsie roll pop and went str8 for the good chewy stuff right off... :D

[TJ aka Teej]

Well TJ, here is my question for you, how many times do you have to repeat it before you start believing your own crap? Obviously you should know since you seem to believe your own crap.
Needles, can it be you don't know that the ATC supplies Wingy with the DataBook info? You are posting a great deal about something you seem to know very little about. Perhaps TrailPlace would be a better forum for you? www.trailplace.com (http://www.trailplace.com)

[TJ aka Teej]

In this case it appears that TJ bit into the tootsie roll pop and went str8 for the good chewy stuff right off... :D
Man, I'm getting nostalgic munchies! I nip those out of my kids Trick or Treat bags - how long is it til Halloween?:D

[Needles]

Needles, can it be you don't know that the ATC supplies Wingy with the DataBook info? You are posting a great deal about something you seem to know very little about. Perhaps TrailPlace would be a better forum for you? www.trailplace.com (http://www.trailplace.com)

Oh no, I am fully aware of that fact, I am also aware that your sad attempt to imply that the ATC giving this information to Wingfoot for use in the Handbook is somehow against the law is something that even you are too smart to believe. But yet you keep repeating it.

Fine, if you don't like the fact that the ATC is giving information to Wingfoot because you also wouldn't want the ATC to give Wingfoot a glass of water if her were dying of thirst, then just say so. I don't appreciate your implication, hell, it is much stronger than just an implication, that something illegal is going on here, that it could have legal ramifications for the ATC, or that anyone's ATC membership dues are being used to support Trailplace. All of this is BLATENTLY untrue and you know it.

By the way, you gonna site your source that says that Wingfoot sued the ATC or are you too busy coming up with yet another lie?

[TJ aka Teej]

I don't appreciate your implication, hell, it is much stronger than just an implication, that something illegal is going on here, that it could have legal ramifications for the ATC, or that anyone's ATC membership dues are being used to support Trailplace. All of this is BLATENTLY untrue and you know it.

By the way, you gonna site your source that says that Wingfoot sued the ATC or are you too busy coming up with yet another lie?
Tell Dan I said Hi while you're still in the IM with him, Needles. Tell him he's welcome to join WhiteBlaze if he wants to do his posting himself.

Your ATC dues and contributions go in part to produce the DataBook. The ATC gives that data to Trailplace.com. TrailPlace.com sells it for a profit. The ATC, to the best of my knowledge, is a not-for-profit institution which cannot support a particular political candidate. TrailPlace.com, to the best of my knowledge, supports a particular political candidate. It's apparent this is beyond your ability to grasp, but it seems to me what is going on. I have suggested that ATC members who have an opinion on this contact the ATC. Are you a member? Have you contacted them?

Like you, I first heard it from Wingfoot when he was having his HandBook spat with the ATC after they kicked him to the curb. Is he now denying suing the ATC? Am I disremembering it? Isn't the ATML archived?

[Needles]

Tell Dan I said Hi while you're still in the IM with him, Needles. Tell him he's welcome to join WhiteBlaze if he wants to do his posting himself.

I haven't spoke with Dan in about a week, and he has no knowledge that this thread even exists. He has been attacked so many times before that he is nearly numb to it now. So I suppose on that account you have had some small victory TJ, you and others who for reasons of jealousy or because they have nothing better to do, have taken a bit of the joy out of life for an old man. Congrats.


Your ATC dues and contributions go in part to produce the DataBook. The ATC gives that data to Trailplace.com. TrailPlace.com sells it for a profit. The ATC, to the best of my knowledge, is a not-for-profit institution which cannot support a particular political candidate. TrailPlace.com, to the best of my knowledge, supports a particular political candidate. It's apparent this is beyond your ability to grasp, but it seems to me what is going on. I have suggested that ATC members who have an opinion on this contact the ATC. Are you a member? Have you contacted them?

All of this is true, I have never argued that, but what you don't seem to understand is that Dan's support for a political candidate has no effect what so ever on the ATC and is completely unrelated to their allowing Wingfoot to use their data in his Handbook. Of course if you acknowledged that no harm could come to the ATC from their allowing WIngfoot to use this info it would become obvious even to you that you aren't interested in the ATC, in the trail, or in what's best for the people who hike the trail. This is your own personal vindetta and you are just trying to make yourself feel better about your actions by putting an altruistic veneer on them.

And why would I contact the ATC about this if I don't disagree with their actions?


Like you, I first heard it from Wingfoot when he was having his HandBook spat with the ATC after they kicked him to the curb. Is he now denying suing the ATC? Am I disremembering it? Isn't the ATML archived?

Wingfoot had a dispute with the ATC (by the way, after they "kicked him to the curb" he went out and published the Handbook on his own and saw sales increase. Of course the ATC continued selling the Handbook themselves until Wingfoot changed his publishing methods and the new distribution method made aquiring the Handbook more difficult for the ATC) and from what I understand he felt he would have had a case against the ATC if he had decided to sue them. But he didn't decide to sue them (he probably realized that suing the ATC would have had a negative effect on the Trail and since I have never seen him do anything that he thought might be bad for the trail I am sure that this was a major part of his decision), I have never heard him say that he sued the ATC and I doubt you ever heard him say that he did sue the ATC. As far as there being an ATML archive, I don't know if there is one or not, but I sure hope there is, I know it would force you to eat your words.

[Needles]

Ok, I am done with this, I am tired of dealing with a person who is so filled with hate for an individual that they feel they must try and drag others into their hate. Yep it worked on me too, I got sucked in pretty deep, I just hope that everyone realizes that I simply wanted to try and correct some of the lies being posted against a good, but far from perfect man. I apologize to everyone, Wingfoot included, for my part in making this thread last longer than it should have.

Wingfoot is planning on hiking next year, and I hope that some of you get the chance to meet one of the smartest, most interesting, and well intentioned people you will ever meet. If you do get this chance TJ's rants will become meaningless because you will have a better understanding of who Wingfoot really is, and will realize that while much of what TJ says about Wingfoot is tenuously based in fact, none of it falls into the realm of truth.

TJ, you obviously have a lot of passion in you and could do, and maybe already have done great things. But this grudge you are holding against Wingfoot is taking up time in your life that could be used for something better than jousting with Wingfoot shaped windmills. Anything you did with this time would be better than what you are doing with it now. Step back from your hatred and try to see the good that Wingfoot has done, if you open yourself up to that, just the tiniest crack, I think the good in the man you will see will quickly overcome the bad.

Let go TJ, there is more to life than verbally bashing Wingfoot.

[weary]

No doubt you were hiking at the time, but the "decline" of the at-l was directly related to two TrailPlace members who joined and began intentionally disrupting what was at the time the Internet's best AT resource. One that had a welcoming atmosphere we likened to a friendly campfire. I contend they were sent on purpose, fueled by jealousy. The at-l has lost some members, but has a legacy as the Web's original AT email list, with amazing accomplishments that include the expansion of ALDHA and the Gatherings, the creation of the Rucks, and many Trail projects - not the least being raising several thousand dollars to rebuild and save The Place in Damascus. Soon after the two TrailPlace posters joined our list and began disrupting it, Wingy was posting with delight on TrailPlace about the discord they created.

I'm not sure which two "Trailplace Members" TJ is refering to. But others on the AT-L site tended to blame me and RnR. But to my knowledge RnR never has joined this site. Nor is he a member of Trailplace -- at least he wasn't the last time I looked.

I was a critic of RnR when we both were on Trailplace. I joined AT-L because Wingfoot had kicked me off his site when I defended the founder of the IAT, who I had known and admired, and sometimes criticized, for 40 years.

All honest people know that Wingfoot has sufficient legitimate faults. It's not necessary to fabricate additional faults as some are wont to do. What hurt AT-L were the Wingfoot haters, who viewed anyone who recognized the value that Wingfoot, despite his problems, had done for the trail, as enemies.

I joined White Blaze out of curiosity, after someone told me that someone had posted a trail "poem" I had written here.

Wingfoot later allowed me back to Trailplace, but I rarely visit anymore. I'm too busy on other trail matters. When I changed my email program some weeks ago, it would not allow me to bring over links to Trailplace, and I Haven't had time or the interest as yet to do so. I will one of these days.

I mention these things because I truly believe in honesty. I have never intiated these discusions -- "bickerings" some call them. I reply mostly in the interest of truth and honesty.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

And why would I contact the ATC about this if I don't disagree with their actions?
As I have posted to you:


I respect the truly American need for all sides to be heard,
and


Should your ATC dues support a website like Dan Bruce's?

If you are an ATC member, and have an opinion on this, perhaps you might want to email the ATC at [email protected] ([email protected]) or [email protected] ([email protected])
That's why, Needles. Don't you read the posts you try to respond to?

[Kozmic Zian]

...............

[attroll]

Wow. That was some pretty heated postings. I don’t know if I dare say anything now. But Needles we could go to Trailplace and post over there and join discussions and even debate with Wingfoot on some things. It would be nice if some of us were even aloud to log on and have access. I am not aloud to have access over there because as I have been told by Wingfoot: “You have the whiteblaze.net domains to keep you busy, I will remove you if you do try to participate under another name”.

Tell me how is that being fair? I have never posted anything bad over there or been disrespectful. I can not even remember if I posted over there. This is a free country. Why should I not be able to have access to his web site if I can abide by the rules? I do not talk trash about Wingfoot, or promote talking trash about him. WhiteBlaze is a web site that supports freedom of speech within reason. So why does that make me any different than everyone else that he lets have access to his web site.

The name of the game is not to make a god out of one’s self because you own a web site as he seems to do. I can understand being strict to a certain extent. I could be strict here on WhiteBlaze too. But then I don’t think it would be as successful as it is. We don’t make users register to read the forums. The name of the game is to share information to help other hikers who are thinking or are going to hike the Appalachian Trail. You can not read post on his web site unless you register. That is not helping others. Some internet users do not like to register on web sites because they are afraid of getting junk mail sent to them. So I can relate to why some users don’t want to register. That is why we at Whiteblaze do not require you to register to read the post on the site even though all user data is kept private and there is not way to find out other users data unless they willingly share it. But on Trailplace you have to register to read post. This is not helping. What this looks to me is that he is forcing members to register so that he can get his user count high so that it looks like he has lots when in actuality he is nowhere close to the amount he has showing. I bet that out of the 7,814 members that he is showing as registered that 95% of them have registered just so they could read his forums and most of them never went back after they registered.

We have more post then Trailplace but I admit it is because we don’t always stay on subject and talk strictly about the Appalachian Trail. That is what makes WhiteBlaze so unique. We are an Appalachian Trail Community. When you go to and community events or clubs do you only talk about what you went there for? But I truly think that there is more information passed out here on WhiteBlaze then at Trailplace. You just have to read between the other conversations sometimes.

We at WhiteBlaze are striving to keep our web site free from popup advertising and trying to force our views on others. This can not be said about Trailplace. He has pop-ups that show up on his web site about Kerry and other advertisements. This is mild and is really not that much of a pain from what I can see. But if he is going to have a forum called “Bush/Cheney must go!” then he should have it as an open forum and a two way discussion and not one sided like I have heard that it is. I have heard that if you don’t agree with him and are pro Bush then he deletes your post. This is only hearsay. When you have a one way conversation on a web site and delete what you do not agree with then you are not truly letting other users see both sides. This is called brain washing I believe.

But with all this said I have nothing against Dan “Wingfoot” Bruce. I just don’t agree with how he runs his web site. But as mentioned before it is his choice how he runs it. It is a free country and he can do with it what he wants. I am just voicing my observations from what I have seen and heard. I would like to be able to log onto his web site and read post. I am also going the thru-hike the Appalachian Trail someday soon and maybe there is something over there that I could learn. But I will never know because he will not give me the chance or the opportunity. I could sign on as another user name and register. But that is not me.

I probably should not have even posted this but I have held these feelings in long enough.

[Percival]

Post under a pseudonym. Then after a few months when he has clearly accepted you as a Trailplace member, lower the boom by announcing ... Hey guess what Wingding, I'm Attrol from **********. He'll bust a nut.

[Pencil Pusher]

:) I couldn't even last a day over there with an account. I sucked it up and remained quiet as I read quite a few posts. Then I took a bunch of screen shots as I browsed around. Probably 80-90% of all threads are created by Wingfoot. There's one titled, "Good Riddance to Ronald Reagan" which really ruffled my feathers, but he locked it so nobody could respond. Well, I had read enough of that site, and taken enough screen shots, that I realized there was no point in trying to be a lurker. It's like a cult over there, with Wingfoot isolating himself and his followers through censorship. So I made my first (and last) post there. I think it's fine to encourage others to go there and not warn them. They'll see the light real quick. It sure made me appreciate this site more...

[TJ aka Teej]

I reply mostly in the interest of truth and honesty.

Weary

Me too. :D

[Lone Wolf]

I've known Wingfoot for 17 years. I know some truths. Needles and Weary wouldn't like hearing them. :cool:

[TJ aka Teej]

... filled with hate ... their hate ... lies being posted ... TJ's rants ... none of it falls into the realm of truth ... this grudge you are holding ... your hatred ... bashing Wingfoot ...

Well, gentle readers, there you have it. If you don't think like Wingy does it must be because of a "grudge" or "hatred". Disagree with what the Fans o' Dan post and you must telling "lies". Make a comment that they don't agree with and it's a "rant". Ask a question they don't want asked and it's "bashing".

[icemanat95]

Tell Dan I said Hi while you're still in the IM with him, Needles. Tell him he's welcome to join WhiteBlaze if he wants to do his posting himself.

Your ATC dues and contributions go in part to produce the DataBook. The ATC gives that data to Trailplace.com. TrailPlace.com sells it for a profit. The ATC, to the best of my knowledge, is a not-for-profit institution which cannot support a particular political candidate. TrailPlace.com, to the best of my knowledge, supports a particular political candidate. It's apparent this is beyond your ability to grasp, but it seems to me what is going on. I have suggested that ATC members who have an opinion on this contact the ATC. Are you a member? Have you contacted them?



Not-for-profits are in no way barred from supporting specific political candidates. Your average political action commitee is a not-for-profit. Virtually all political lobbying groups are not-for-profits. Now, the National Parks Service IS barred from supporting or defending a candidate as an agency of the government. but that is a seperate entity.

Also, you are spinning things pretty hard to say that the ATC supports Wingfoot's political opinions simply because they choose to provide, free of charge, mileage data to him for the publication of his handbook. The one thing does not need to relate to the other and does not.
The ATC is choosing to provide data that Wingfoot could acquire from other sources. They are shortcutting the work he would otherwise have to do, but they've done the work anyhow so what doe sit hurt to pass it along simply as a matter of professional courtesy?

And another issue is how much of an impact Wingfoot's pro-Kerry standpoint has on the wider world? How many people actually pay attention to Wingfoot's politics? How many of his site's readers are going to be persuaded by his advocacy? Like the posters here, most of his readership seems to have their minds pretty well made up on the point. Certainly his opinions offend those with opposing viewpoints, but frankly, most of us fled the coop a long time ago, sick of wasteing our time arguing against someone who wouldn't let our opinions be heard.

That said, I have had good experiences in discussion forums with some code of conduct standards and moderators who police them. A fairly liberal (meaning lenient) policy toward political discussions is fine, but allowing things to descend down ratholes of personal sniping is another. Some of us hot-heads (me included) sometimes need someone to tap us on the shoulder and tell us that we have stepped over a clearly identified line. It is not an all or nothing situation. Wingfoot goes too far in squelching dissent, this forum often allows itself to get bogged down in rat-holes. There is some potential for a compromise solution betwixt the two.

I find no issue with the ATC giving Wingfoot access to the mileage data. There are no broken laws there and no ethical violations. Wingfoot's politics are disturbing to me, but I also don't think that his supporting one candidate over another is going to have any net effect on the election, and may lose him readership at Trailplace. Oh well.

I voted my lack of support for the constant politicization on Trailplace by coming here.

[weary]

I've known Wingfoot for 17 years. I know some truths. Needles and Weary wouldn't like hearing them. :cool:

ATtroll and Iceman have provided us with excellent insights into Wingfoot. L. Wolf, with his unspoken claim of knowing some dark secret, and TJ in his multiple posts should read them and thus learn how to debate an issue responsibly.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

TJ in his multiple posts should read them and thus learn how to debate an issue responsibly.

"Th' reason hims gots so much advice t' give t'others is coz'n he ain't never used none on his own self" -Raz'mus

[Jeremy]

In life, I try to stay humble. I know that I am only smart enough to know how little I really know. I have heard bad things about Wingfoot, but to be honest, those are all opinions. I have never met Wingfoot, so how can I properly judge the type of person he is. It is not fair to judge people based on others opinions, which are usually slanted. I plan on doing a thru-hike in spring of 2005, which is when Wingfoot is doing his next thru-hike. If I meet him, I will treat him with respect and love, which is the way I would treat any hiker on the AT. I do know this; Wingfoot has thru-hiked the AT, and I have not, which means he probably has some good advice. I don't care whether or not I agree with him about everything, because most people you meet will have differing opinions than you. So I will still thru-hike the AT next spring, no matter who is hiking it during the same time. I love the AT, I love the people on the AT, and nothing will keep me from hiking it. Thank you.:-?

[Mountain Dew]

Jeremy... Your argument that you can't think bad of Wingfoot because you have never met him and that all you have heard about him are opinions is very very flawed. When and if you meet him you'll realize that he doesn't care about YOUR opinions or anybody elses unless they line up perfectly with his. If I go along with your logic about wingfoot, opinions, and never having met someone then I guess you don't think Hitler was a bad person either.

And NO, this isn't a comparison of Hitler and Wingfoot. If you think that read the above again and again untill you comprehend.

[MOWGLI]

Jeremy... Your argument that you can't think bad of Wingfoot because you have never met him and that all you have heard about him are opinions is very very flawed. When and if you meet him you'll realize that he doesn't care about YOUR opinions or anybody elses unless they line up perfectly with his....

Well, I have met him, talked to him at length on the phone, and sat with him on his front porch when he lived in Hot Springs. I can tell you that he did listen to me and my opinions, and we had some interesting discussions. We certainly didn't always agree on things, but our conversations were always civil. That is until the last one that we had 3 years ago. When it comes to his website, I think that is a different matter.

In other words, like I have said over & over again, internet forums do not come close to replicating the type of community and dialogue that takes place on the trail. To understand WF, I think you need to separate him from his website. I have met with WF and interacted with him on his website, so regardless of my feelings about him, I think I have a clearer and fairer view of WF than most on this website. Judging WF based upon his website would be akin to judging the AT based upon this forum.

If you want to judge someone harshly based on 2nd & 3rd person accounts, and based upon that persons beliefs & convictions about the AT, then I think that says more about the person doing the judging than it does about Wingfoot.

Go ahead now... eat me alive.

[smokymtnsteve]

Jeffery How many years you been knowing wingfoot?

[MOWGLI]

Jeffery How many years you been knowing wingfoot?

Steve:

I talked to him on the phone & corresponded on his website back in late '99. I kept a journal on his site in 2000. Met him in Hot Springs in April 2000 (looked at the slide transparency of the two of us this afternoon). I participated in his Kidsplace experiment in 2001, and it was over the demise of that web site that he & I had a falling out.

[Connie]

I wouldn't hike with him.

I didn't know anything about him. Then, I saw a thread here that mentioned his forum address.

I thought, okay, PG-rated "family style" forum. I can behave. I thought I'd check it out.

It was "on topic" ..I posted once, or twice. I liked it okay over there.

I go to several forums.

But I was being "logged out" while I was posting !

I was "logged out" just navigating the forum.

I had to log in over and over. I even had my password, not "work".

I got a new password. I'd get in the forum. Then, I would be "logged off" and my password would not "work" all over again. I went thru this "run around" over and over.

I didn't go back.

Hey, guys there, for any length of time, have "guru" .."guide" or .."Professional" after their names.

Those are meant to be "silly" names, right ? Maybe not.

I put on the form, I don't have a job. I don't have a job.

Maybe that makes me "unacceptable" ?

Maybe he followed my "referrer string" from whiteblaze.net/forum ?

All I know is ..I am "discriminated against" over nothing real.

I own everything I have. Hmm ..no job ..no debt. Have my own money. Have discretionary income. Travel. Not bad !

I look at whiteblaze.net and post. I also look at Backpacker Magazine's forum and post and also the TLB Forum and post. I look at Backpacking Light online magazine's forum. I expect to post there, as well.

I have my website on my signature. Maybe he finds my website "objectionable" ?

I take a long time to get around a forum: I'm slow. Maybe he objects to that ?

Hey, you know what ? I haven't gone back there.

I don't bother with a website, or a webmaster, that is "dysfunctional".

I don't think I am missing out !!


Connie

[MOWGLI]

I wouldn't hike with him.

I have my website on my signature.

Maybe he finds my website "objectionable" ?



I don't think there is any question that your website prompted his behavior towards you. You have links to other discusion sites, and he doesn't like that. I can't really blame him for that in some respects. Some fairly vile things have been said about him on this website, and others. Why should he want to post the URL of a website where he is regularly trashed?

Put it this way. I'll start a website with my opinions about why Connie is so narrow minded (mind you - I don't know her). I'll then try and post my website address on Connie's web page so others can see how I feel about her. Hmmm... I wonder what her reaction will be?

Connie, just trying to illustrate why he might behave the way he does. I'd bet you'd get along with him just fine if you shared a meal anonomously in a shelter. That is, until you found out who he really is.

[mongo]

I'd love to hike with Wingfoot and talk to him away from the computer and internet. I'm sure he'd add quite a lot to a conversation, he's very opionated. I'm glad he's getting back on the Trail

undefined

Man you guys are lucky....to hike the AT with Wingfoot...or without Wingfoot.
I would just to be able to hike the AT again. :datz

Mongo

[Mountain Dew]

Mow, This isn't carryover from the other thread where we got into it is it ? I hope you are bigger than that. I've had more than one argument with Lone Wolf on one thread and supoorted his post on another. Most people can't be this unbiased and thus follow me around from thread to thread with biased motives. Once again I hope you are not up to this...

Saying that .... I'll respond to you even though you answered for someone else when i'm sure they can respond for themselves.

Mow, you bring up an interesting point or two in your post. NICE. You claim that people shouldn't judge/form opinions of wingfoot based on his website. He created that site and controls it with the hand of hitler to ensure it contains only his opinions. Therefore it is ridiculous to claim that the website can't be an accurate measurement of his character etc. That website represents exactly who he is. I would say that if anything he tones it down in public. Many people run at the mouth online and don't in public , but that is simply because they don't have the backbone to say in public what they say behind a screen. As much as me and Lone Wolf get in to it I respect him in that he'd say to my face what he says on WB. I do however agree with you on Connies website and how it is up to wingfoot what sites he links. Excellent point. Now...I didn't "eat you alive did I" ? Hopefully no personal attacks will be thrown at me likewise.

[MOWGLI]

Mow, This isn't carryover from the other thread where we got into it is it ?

Of course not. Like Dave Mason sang "We just disagree..."


He created that site and controls it with the hand of hitler to ensure it contains only his opinions. Therefore it is ridiculous to claim that the website can't be an accurate measurement of his character etc.

OK, lets say that I have a non-profit group or club that I run. I start a website, and have certain wacky rules & regs about what you can & can't say about my organization, or about me. That doesn't sum me up as a person, does it? It may indicate that I have some issues with control or my ego, but I would hope that I am more complex than that. That is my point. Wingfoot for all his flaws is more complex than just being a democratic, anti-gun, anti-cellphone, anti-ALDHA, AT traditionalist. As Baltimore Jack has said here, he is a son that is taking care of his elderly parents. He is also a pretty intelligent guy and is knowledgeable about all kinds of things. When people stoop to taking shots at him because of his sexual orientation or other matters, that goes beyond that pale. If you factor that in, perhaps you can start to understand some of his rules & regs on Trailplace.



Now...I didn't "eat you alive did I" ? Hopefully no personal attacks will be thrown at me likewise.

They won't be.

[Mountain Dew]

Mow... I know that you aren't defending his actions accross the board or should I fraze it... " I hope that you aren't". That website he has sums him up perfectly in my opinion. Attempting to defend wingfoot is like trying to take the bottle away from uncle johnny. Not gonna work.

Mow, "As Baltimore Jack has said here, he is a son that is taking care of his elderly parents. "..."When people stoop to taking shots at him because of his sexual orientation or other matters, that goes beyond that pale." --- I have never taken those shots and would never so to put them on a post directed at me is a waste of time.

You choose to support wingfoot and all that he represents and I choose not to.

[MOWGLI]

....So I will still thru-hike the AT next spring, no matter who is hiking it during the same time. I love the AT, I love the people on the AT, and nothing will keep me from hiking it. Thank you.:-?

Well, I can tell you right off that if you meet WF you will have at least 2 things in common. He loves the AT, and he loves AT hikers. Anyone that has spent as many years as he has - with little or no financial gain to show for it.... That is the definition of a "labor of love" in my book.

I like your attitude Jeremy. You'll do great on the trail.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

[Connie]

I have said good things about whiteblaze.net/forum on my website, but if I had exposure to his website that was good, his forum would be listed and the strong points emphasized. I know I would emphasize it has "safe for children" content. I think I would actually say his forum is all "on topic" on providing help for getting on the trail, and there is no off-topic posting. But nicer.

If you haven't noticed, at my website I emphasize the "positive" and have very little to say about the stupid ideas I am challenging in a "positive" way, with constructive suggestions and information. I refrain from pointing out the junk sold as "10 essentials". I will not recommend some stuff I know doesn't make it to the first washday. I figure if people don't care about their spending, they can spend their "disposable income" on "disposable products" but I won't help them find the address to the store. I sometimes think I could "relax" that standard a bit, and mention some lightweight raingear people do like for example. One hike. Who cares ?

I have several forums links, on my website.

I don't take issue with "freedom of speech" and there is a lot of that here !

If someone thinks my website is "endorsing" absolutely "anything and everything" that goes on here, or at any link I offer, that is just wrong !

I like a little "freedom of speech" myself. I figure we are all "of age" here.

But I guess that is the "difference" between me, and "wingfoot". I don't see any "big deal" about that. I like "diversity". Different people keep the world in balance.

But to shut me out in such a sneaky and cowardly way. I don't know. I think he is a jerk. I don't endorse jerks.

How about a private message ? Please don't post your website address in your "signature" over here. You website has favorable links to whiteblaze and I get loads of "flack" from those guys over at "that other forum". It would just be a courtesy. Thank you.

Answer: Okay. I can be courteous. I wasn't thinking. Stupid. I just heard about your forum, and came over here. Nice place, not a lot of people, but nice. No problem.

I would probably "drift away" after a little time passed, but I would still find "positive" things to say about his website even tho' it is not my cup of tea.

I am out looking for links I can recommend !

If whiteblaze was way-wierd, or some things, so I would be embarrassed to mention whiteblaze, I would pull the link. That is just the facts.


Connie

[MOWGLI]

I have never taken those shots and would never so to put them on a post directed at me is a waste of time.

You choose to support wingfoot and all that he represents and I choose not to.

I'm going to bed in a few minutes, so this is my last post of the evening.

I was not suggesting you had commented on WF's sexual orientation. I am just trying to explain sime of his seemingly bizarre behavior.

You have me pegged incorrectly when you say that I "choose to support Wingfoot and all that he represents". I disagree with a fair amount of his opinions - just like I disagree with many of your opinions, and those of others here on Whiteblaze. I am just offering my opinions to try and put things in context - as I see it. Gosh, if everyone agreed with everyone else on every subject - it would be a really boring world.

[Flash Hand]

I'm glad that Dan is planning a 2005 thru-hike. I hope it happens. He is a passionate educator who desires to help people rather than hurt them - just like the trail is for the pilgrims upon it.
Since I will be on the trail as well in 2005, I hope to be able to walk and talk a few miles with him along our respective journeys.
I enjoy conversing with other travelers on their way to becoming.

Warren, are you planning thru or just some miles? Hope to meet you and some other trail legends in 2005. I met Baltimore Jack, hiked with One Leg, and took a picture with Flyin Brian Robinson. You are the most respected trail legend that I would love to meet also. :banana


Flash Hand :jump

[Jaybird]

Man! what is this obsession with WINGFOOT & his hiking????



Hey, i'm doing the Hampton,TN to Damascus,VA section for a few days in October (Oct 4-8 2004) w/ "TeePee"...if Wingfoot is out there...he can hike along with us!.....you too, Lone Wolf! hehehehehehe :D

[Jack Tarlin]

Flash Hand---

With absolutely no dis-respect intended, I think you're applying the term "Trail Legend" too loosely.

The only Trail Legend I know of died on 5 May 2002, and his name was
Earl Shaffer.

[weary]

Flash Hand---

With absolutely no dis-respect intended, I think you're applying the term "Trail Legend" too loosely.

The only Trail Legend I know of died on 5 May 2002, and his name was
Earl Shaffer.

Jack is just being modest. We all know Baltimore Jack is a trail legend.

Weary

[Pencil Pusher]

Jack is just being modest. We all know Baltimore Jack is a trail legend.

Weary
Just as the others are to Flash Hand.

[Flash Hand]

Balitmore Jack

No one can change my point of view, I have the freedom to say my opinion and I can say that you are trail legend, and I respect you for that. You gave a lot of good advice for a lot of other hikers and the community. Without trail legends like you or Warren Doyle, there won't be many good confidence in us.


Flash Hand :jump

PS Jack Tarlin for President '08!

[Mountain Dew]

Mow... Whether your words about wingfoots sexuality etc. were intended for me or not they were mentioned in a way that could lead people to think I said them or have in the past.

Mow, " Anyone that has spent as many years as he has - with little or no financial gain to show for it.... That is the definition of a "labor of love" in my book. " ---from what I have come to understand it has been more of a labor of terror and theft of information... in " my book".

[SargeAT]

I'm new to Wingfoot bashing. Why exactly are you all bitching and moaning about a guy who runs his own site that you dont have to visit, and then bans you from the forums because he can? If you know he is that type of man, then dont waste you time on him. Somewhat like the unspoken contract one makes when you enter a supermarket or place of commerce, the manager can remove you for any reason or none at all.

[SGT Rock]

I'm new to Wingfoot bashing. Why exactly are you all bitching and moaning about a guy who runs his own site that you dont have to visit, and then bans you from the forums because he can? If you know he is that type of man, then dont waste you time on him. Somewhat like the unspoken contract one makes when you enter a supermarket or place of commerce, the manager can remove you for any reason or none at all.

Well said.

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, Flash......."Jack Tarlin for President in '08"????

What a scary concept!!

And in any case, my vote that year is hopefully already decided; it'll be John McCain against Hillary Clinton and I look forward very much to working again for Senator McCain.

I'm only sorry he didn't run as an independent THIS year.

* * * *


To get back to the subject.......yeah, it really is amazing to see so much time and energy spent on Dan Bruce. You'd think folks would have more important things to talk about. My feelings on the subject:

1. I think Mr. Bruce has done an extraordinary amount of good over the years
as far as helping educate folks, especially prospective thru-hikers, about
what lies ahead of them. I think that many of his critics have forgotten
this because many of them are simply incapable of EVER saying anything
positive about this individual. This is kinda sad.

2. I think most of his really strident critics are peevish and sore cuz they
got kicked off his website. They REALLY need to get over this. Getting
tossed off a privately owned internet site where the rules are clearly
posted and it's known that the administrator/owner runs a tight ship......
well, for heaven's sake, get over it. It's not that big a deal.

3. That being said, some of Dan's behavior over the years, especially his
running of Trailplace, his feuds with such organizations as ALDHA and the
ATC, and his tendency to embellish or exaggerate some of his resume,
well this has in fact left him open to criticism. Some of this criticism is
fair and justified; some isn't. But in relentlessly promoting and presenting
himself as the individual who "is widely recognized as the expert on A.T.
thru-hiking" ------well, this sort of self-elevation inevitably leaves one
open to discussion and comment.

4. I think it's a pity Dan felt the need to comment about fake register entries
and other attempts to besmirch his name. This sort of behavior is pretty
low. However, as Dan stated in his magazine notice "I stopped signing
Trail registers about a dozen years ago, so if you see a "Wingfoot" sig-
nature nowadays, it's a fake." This is perfectly true; he did indeed stop
signing registers a dozen or so years ago, which of course coincides with
when he effectively stopped long-distance hiking. In that his physical
absence from the Trail is pretty well known in the hikig community, I'm not
entirely sure his magazine announcement was truly necessary. It was,
however, a really nifty way to publicize the address of his website.
Ingenious if you think about it.

5. I'm moving on to something else. Like a lotta folks, I think this subject has
been done to death and I'm bored with it. I hope people stop signing
Dan's name in registers. I hope people that have been holding festering
resentman towards Dan for years find better outlets for their unhappiness.
I hope Dan realizes the legitimacy of some of the criticism sent his way
and eventually comes to realize that not everyone who dares to publicly
disagree with him is making a personal attack or statement and that they
are merely offering another point of view. And lastly, I really hope that
Dan is able to get out and hike next year; it'd do him a great deal of
good.

[Lugnut]

[QUOTE=Jack Tarlin]

And in any case, my vote that year is hopefully already decided; it'll be John McCain against Hillary Clinton and I look forward very much to working again for Senator McCain.

I'm only sorry he didn't run as an independent THIS year.

__________________________________________________ __________

Jack, I'll also be doing all I can for Sen. McCain here in Ohio in '08 so it's good you aren't planning to run. ;)

Think I'll write him in this year anyway.

[Crash! Bang!]

whats the deal with warren doyle not getting a trailname? get a trailname, dude. youre not too cool. and dont sign the registers "trail legend". it makes you look like an ass. :jump

[Crash! Bang!]

"some of Dan's behavior over the years, especially his
running of Trailplace, his feuds with such organizations as ALDHA and the
ATC, and his tendency to embellish or exaggerate some of his resume,
well this has in fact left him open to criticism. Some of this criticism is
fair and justified; some isn't. But in relentlessly promoting and presenting
himself as the individual who "is widely recognized as the expert on A.T.
thru-hiking" ------well, this sort of self-elevation inevitably leaves one
open to discussion and comment.....

he did indeed stop signing registers a dozen or so years ago, which of course coincides with when he effectively stopped long-distance hiking"

you say all that, and then you wonder why peeps diss him? you just made their argument for them. wingfoot-bashing is a sport on the AT amongst thru-hikers, one born of occasional boredom, or frustration with inaccurate information. its how ppl let off steam. ppl need a target. this year had a handful of individual thru-hikers that everyone liked to vent about, which im sure is no different than any other year.

that said, i would just like to say "baltimore jack for president!"

[weary]

Mow... " Anyone that has spent as many years as he has - with little or no financial gain to show for it.... That is the definition of a "labor of love" in my book. " ---from what I have come to understand it has been more of a labor of terror and theft of information... in " my book".

Mountain Dew. Those are outrageously stupid and vicious claims. Wingfoot is a gentle person with strong ideas that I do not always agree with. But he is the most dedicated -- if not always the wisest -- trail supporter I have ever met.

To call his efforts "a labor of terror," is absurd and irresponsible. To call Wingfoot a thief is wrongheadedly malicious. Such comments about someone who has dedicated much of his life to the Appalachian Trail hurt not just Wingfoot but the entire trail effort.

Your comments don't reflect wisdom, but deliberate ignorance.

Weary

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Jay Leutze (sp?), the head local organizer against the mine, said Wingfoot's Putnam Mine campaign pushed the issue over the top with local officials and was the single-most factor in the overturning of the Mine. Somehow, some persons whose only qualification I can tell is internet naysaying seem to know otherwise. In the meantime Leutze, who was the main local AT representative against the mine, said that anyone who doubted his account could phone him and ask him about it.

Why Wingfoot's campaign was important was because the state needed an official indication of public concern before it could legally act to overturn the mine approval. Workers at the government office said Wingfoot's letters were the greatest grassroots effort they had ever witnessed. Somehow, a dedicated personal opponent to Wingfoot seems to doubt this. I hope people don't take him seriously - and I doubt he ever called Leutze to check his facts...

[Yooper_Trooper]

I'll go, as long as Wingfoot goes in 2006!

[Ridge]

...stays 100 yds behind. He must not try to sell me something or try to enlist me on any website. He must go into town for supplies. But still, just a maybe. I'm not bashing him, I just think he Bumped his Noggin on the way to Katahdin.

[Ridge]

Flash Hand---

With absolutely no dis-respect intended, I think you're applying the term "Trail Legend" too loosely.

The only Trail Legend I know of died on 5 May 2002, and his name was
Earl Shaffer.
I hiked with Earl for some time during his last anniversary hike. He was a gentleman and the biggest fan the AT will ever have. He truly is the ONLY person I would ever deem to be a "Trail Legend". He inspired me and I believe he will continue to inspire others through his books and from articles about him. RIP Earl.

[swamp dawg]

Wingfoot loves the trail and so do I ....nuff said.
Life is good.........Swamp Dawg

[Rocks 'n Roots]

I was once lucky enough to have Wingfoot read some passages from AT books to me in person on his front porch in Hot Springs. Material he deemed important to his Trail views. If you want to experience Wingfoot I suggest this is a better way to do it. Unfortunately circumstances drove him away from public interfacing. Too bad, the Trail needs more people who see it from a philosophical perspective rather than just hiking...

[deadair]

i know that i personally dont give a **** if wingfoot is full of himself or whatever, not going to change my hike one bit so i think this is a pointless topic. :bse

[hikerjohnd]

i know that i personally dont give a **** if wingfoot is full of himself or whatever, not going to change my hike one bit so i think this is a pointless topic. :bse
Yea, but Wingnut bashing is fun! :D

[saimyoji]

Uhhhhh...why did you respond, bring it back from the dead?