PDA

View Full Version : Cold Weather Hiking Tips needed ?



snowman2
01-12-2009, 19:50
Need some tips on cold winter hiking. I'm going on a three day near the NOC. They are calling single digits temps for the two nights that we are out there.

Any inside scoop or tips would be great. This is my first trip with temps below 20.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Snowman

LIhikers
01-12-2009, 20:03
I just came back from a camping trip in northern Minnesota, where the daytime highs were around zero degrees F and the night time went to 25 BELOW zero. The thing I learned is that it's easier to stay warm than try to get warm.

Lone Wolf
01-12-2009, 20:09
sleep in a tent

KG4FAM
01-12-2009, 20:12
don't get wet

Egads
01-12-2009, 20:17
keep your water liquid. ya can't drink ice.

run a search for winter hiking. There are plenty of prior threads on the subject.

Mocs123
01-12-2009, 20:17
I am assuming that you already have all the appropriate gear:

Make sure your pad is warm enough. Most people don't think much about thier pad, but it can make as big of difference as a sleeping bag. You may want to add a CC Foam pad underneath your normal pad.

Always keep a dry pair of clothes to change into. I have a Capaline 1 top and bottom for camp as well as dry wool socks, fleece gloves and hat. Take extra gloves and socks.

Turn your sleeping bag stuff sack inside out and put your shoes in it and put in the bottom of your sleeping bag. That way you wont have to put on frozen shoes the next morning.

Keep your water in the tent with you or if it cold enough, inside your bag (make sure your bottle doesn't leak) Also, water freezes where it has contact with air first, so if you store your water bottles upside down, you will be able to drink out of them for longer.

Canister stoves don't work well below 17* so if you plan on using one, sleep with the canister.

Around camp wear your raingear over your fleece or puffy insulating clothing for extra warmth. I am always surprised how much of a difference it makes.

Eat somthing warm and high calorie before you go to bed, Also make sure you drink enough (you will be cold if dehydrated)

During the day, make sure you don't wear too much clothing. You will be surprised how little you need while hiking and if you wear more you will just sweat and get cold.

Dont let your filter (if you use one) freeze. This is another item you might have to sleep with.

snowman2
01-12-2009, 20:19
Got a good one man tent, but only a 20 degree bag. Was thinking of either sleeping with my fleece on or buy a 0 degree bag for the night. Input ?

Got all the needed clothes and rain gear for the wind/snow/sleet.

I have heard two different thoughts on sleeping.

1. Sleep in longjohns/polypro and have the correct rated bag.

or

2. Sleep with your fleece on and make yourself warm for the conditions.

snowhoe
01-12-2009, 20:21
Pour water into your pot before you go to bed that way if it freezes you can just fire up you stove and your good to go. If you dont its hard to get frozen water out of your water bottle.

Egads
01-12-2009, 20:22
Thursday's forecast low is for 2* at Newfound Gap. Think a 20* & clothing will keep you warm? I'd want a 0* bag but hard to justify one for just 2 nights.

Gray Blazer
01-12-2009, 20:27
I am assuming that you already have all the appropriate gear:

Make sure your pad is warm enough. Most people don't think much about thier pad, but it can make as big of difference as a sleeping bag. You may want to add a CC Foam pad underneath your normal pad.

Always keep a dry pair of clothes to change into. I have a Capaline 1 top and bottom for camp as well as dry wool socks, fleece gloves and hat. Take extra gloves and socks.

Turn your sleeping bag stuff sack inside out and put your shoes in it and put in the bottom of your sleeping bag. That way you wont have to put on frozen shoes the next morning.

Keep your water in the tent with you or if it cold enough, inside your bag (make sure your bottle doesn't leak) Also, water freezes where it has contact with air first, so if you store your water bottles upside down, you will be able to drink out of them for longer.

Canister stoves don't work well below 17* so if you plan on using one, sleep with the canister.

Around camp wear your raingear over your fleece or puffy insulating clothing for extra warmth. I am always surprised how much of a difference it makes.

Eat somthing warm and high calorie before you go to bed, Also make sure you drink enough (you will be cold if dehydrated)

During the day, make sure you don't wear too much clothing. You will be surprised how little you need while hiking and if you wear more you will just sweat and get cold.

Dont let your filter (if you use one) freeze. This is another item you might have to sleep with.

Take Mocs advice to heart. You are living in FL now and it will be a huge difference when you are in the Nantahalas. As you have seen from my pics it was cold when I was there. The night time temps were around 7 degrees and it around 20 during the days. Be prepared so you don't freeze to death as I almost did.

bigmac_in
01-12-2009, 20:34
Heat up some water and pour it in a platypus bottle before you hit the sack at night. Put the bottle in your sleeping bag with you. You'll stay toasty warm, and you won't have to worry about frozen water in the morning. Best advice I ever got about cold weather camping.

Del Q
01-12-2009, 20:53
Great tips. I also sleep with cell phone and batteries, they seemed to die quickly in 10 degree weather. ABSOLUTELY on the sleeping pad, the ground is what gets you super cold, I have piled up lots of leaves underneath tent which helped a ton.

snowman2
01-12-2009, 20:56
Thanks for all the advice. Im thinking of buying a fleece liner for my bag and keep the hot water bottle in the bottom of the sack.

I use my cousin's sleeping pad and he has most of the gear. Not sure what brand it is, but I will check it.

I guess I'm a little nervous about being properly prepared in cold weather. I like to stay ahead of the game and be comfortable.

Thanks for all the tips and if there is anymore advice would love to hear it.

Thanks again,

Snowman

Feral Bill
01-12-2009, 21:01
Got a good one man tent, but only a 20 degree bag. Was thinking of either sleeping with my fleece on or buy a 0 degree bag for the night. Input ?


Got all the needed clothes and rain gear for the wind/snow/sleet.

I have heard two different thoughts on sleeping.

1. Sleep in longjohns/polypro and have the correct rated bag.

or

2. Sleep with your fleece on and make yourself warm for the conditions.

Your sleeping bag alone should be adequate for expected conditions. Add clothing if the temps really drop.

A lighter sleeping bag inside or outside the 20* bag is a good solution, and handy for summer later.

Gray Blazer
01-12-2009, 21:06
Mocs mentioned to not get dehydrated. As for me I try not to drink a lot before I go to bed cuz I don't want to be using a water bottle in my sleeping bag (not for drinking.... for micturating) in the middle of the night or having to get up to pee and losing the warmth.

daibutsu
01-12-2009, 21:25
It's a delicate balance between hydration, night peeing, food energy, and processing food. I'm a fan of the 'last minute, big piece of meat before sleeping' school. Drink some water, eat a big piece of protein, drink some more water, brush/floss your teeth, and climb in. Maybe you'll not have the urge to micturate, (that's a big word!) won't feel bloated, will be sufficiently hydrated, and will sleep like a baby. It works for me.

snowman2
01-12-2009, 21:29
I was thinking the same thing about adding clothes if the temps drops. I think poly pro and 2 fleece tops with fleece bottoms should do the trick in a 20 degree bag. Just wanting to bounce some ideas off the people who have the experience.

For getting up in the middle of the night when nature calls. Just depends on the night for me, cross that bridge when I get there. Ha

A little whisky always gives a little warmth before getting in the sack also.

Thanks again

Snowman

shelterbuilder
01-12-2009, 21:51
I was thinking the same thing about adding clothes if the temps drops. I think poly pro and 2 fleece tops with fleece bottoms should do the trick in a 20 degree bag. Just wanting to bounce some ideas off the people who have the experience....A little whisky always gives a little warmth before getting in the sack also.

Thanks again

Snowman

If you have the money, I would suggest getting a bag (or bag system - a bag-inside-a-bag) that's rated to your coldest expected temperature. That way, if you get cold, you have your fleece to fall back on.

DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL OF ANY KIND IF YOU REALLY PLAN TO STAY WARM - alcohol is a vaso-dialator (sp?), and will open up all of your surface blood vessels. This does 2 things: first, it allows all of the really warm blood from your body's core to rise to the surface of your skin, thus allowing it to cool faster; second, it allows all of the cool blood that would normally be "trapped" near the skin's surface to pour into your body's core, thus cooling you faster than normal.

Kanati
01-12-2009, 22:03
Use a tent but pile leaves about 10 inches deep X 24 inches wide under your tent on the side where you'll be sleeping. This will have a great insulating effect from the cold ground. I've been doing this for many years and it also lays much more comfortable that a pad on boards. :)

Joey
01-12-2009, 22:06
I am going to comment on the sleeping bag ordeal. I have both 0 and 20 degree bags. The twenty stays at home pretty much after October and the 0 degree comes out. I have the Mountain Hardwear Phantom and I was out on Grandfather last year with Patrick in temps double digit below zero in a tent. The zero bag worked very good in those conditions. If you are planning to do a lot of winter hike, buy a zero degree bag. They are pricey but well worth the money. Western Mountaineering has some of the best bags on the market, but you better have the cash too! MountainHardwear or North Face bags are good too. be ready to spend 350-500 dollars for a good one.

snowman2
01-12-2009, 23:34
My problem is that I only go once a year. Would like to go more, but have a lot going on in FL.

I will prob watch the weather and see. I will either buy a zero bag or bag within a bag.

I do a lot of offshore fishing in FL and always pride myself with being prepared in weather conditions. This single digit temps are new to me and just trying to be ready for it, since its all over the news about the cold air blast coming.

Im kinda stuck on the trip since I already bought a plane ticket and have the shuttle booked. Just wasnt wanting it to be this cold. Im sure it will be fun and a new experience.

Thanks for all the information about the trip and planning. It will help greatly.

Snowman

theinfamousj
01-13-2009, 00:35
Two thoughts:

1. You can rent a 0* bag from REI, Great Outdoor Provision Company, and TownsendBirtchram (just to name a few). Depending on how you feel, it may be worth it to rent the bag as a trial to decide if it is something you want to invest in.

2. An alternative to a piece of meat before bed (I'm a vegetarian, but not a vegan) is to eat 1/4 cup of butter or drink 1/4 cup of olive oil before bed. It kicks up your metabolism and makes you produce more body heat which warms your bag which retains the warmth, and in turn warms you. And it doesn't make you have to pee.

Of course, the flavor is its own issue ... but you'll be surprised what you'll eat when you wake up cold.

snaplok
01-13-2009, 05:32
Heat up some water and pour it in a platypus bottle before you hit the sack at night. Put the bottle in your sleeping bag with you. You'll stay toasty warm, and you won't have to worry about frozen water in the morning. Best advice I ever got about cold weather camping.

The Platypus works well plus if it does freeze you can boil it in a pot with water with no damage to the Platy. Nalgenes work too.

If you use a canister stove, put it in a pan of water when you cook, as long as the water doesn't freeze it will work fine, it keeps the canister above freezing.

Take firestarters with you like vasaline soaked cotton balls or drier lint. It might be hard to start a fire with wet wood and these can help take the chill off.

Carry an emergency blanket. Even if they say the temp is going to be 10 below it could dip lower and its better to be safe than sorry.

I like mittens. A thin pair of liners and mittens will keep your hands warmer than just gloves alone. Bring extra liners.

Wool socks are a mans best friend. Never keep wet socks on ýour feet long. Bring extra socks. Most of your body heat escapes from your feet and your head. Cover the head too, even when sleeping.

I find a diet rich in fat and protein better for winter. Keep candy bars near the outside of your pack, they're pretty good hard.

Layer, layer, layer. It's easier to take something off than it is to put some on to stay warm.

Keep your food wrapped well to avoid freezing, though its a good time to bring perishable food, you have natures refrigerator working for you.

And don't forget a pee bottle, last thing you want to do at night is get out a warm sleeping bag to go outside and pee.

Egads
01-13-2009, 07:24
Several of you guys have said to pour hot water into a Platy and take it to bed. I had a catastrophic failure of a platy that I think was caused by hot water. So I take hot Gatorade bottles to bed with me.

Gray Blazer
01-13-2009, 09:05
My problem is that I only go once a year. Would like to go more, but have a lot going on in FL.

I will prob watch the weather and see. I will either buy a zero bag or bag within a bag.



Snowman

Splurge on the bag if you can. You will become hooked on this floridian staying warm in the cold beautiful mountains thing.

sixhusbands
01-13-2009, 09:30
I agree with getting the best sleeping bag that you can and wear less clothes in the bag. The bag is designed to hold heat in , so let your own body heat radiate and you will be toasty. I have a -15 bag and I have slept out in temps much lower than that in just my underwear and a slik cap. make sure that you are off of the ground (very imporatant as others have stated). I use a Zrest under my bag and I put my thermarest in the bag with me. All of the tips mentioned will make your trip very enjoyable and you will be amazed at how comfortable you can be!

JAK
01-13-2009, 10:18
Many good suggestions here.

First gather a little more information.
Sounds like you need to be prepared for 0degF.
Find out if there is also any chance of freezing rain.
Find out how much snow and ice there might be, which will slow you down.
Find out if there are multiple exit points, or if you have to be prepared for 5 days vs 3 days.

Tips for 0degF:
1. Don't worry too much about the 20deg bag. Be more concerned about clothing.
2. Have enough clothing to be able to move slowly in 0degF with wind.
3. Bring an extra set of fleece or wool for sleeping in when it is 0degF.
(This extra set should also fit in with all you other clothing, in case you need to wear it in addition to all you other layers, sitting around for example, or instead of one of your other layers, should it get very wet, or you need to hand it to a friend, or whatever.)
4. Sleep clothing that fits over your skin layer, and under your main layer, works well.
5. You may find it either damp in the tent when closed in, and very cold when opened up. Don't let this surprise you, and don't worry too much either way which is best. It's a compromise. A tent is still a good idea for having a place to get organized before bed and in the morning. It doesn't have to be a winter tent for 3 days without alot of snow, but don't expect it to be too comfortable. It is mostly useful as a place to get organized.
6. Dress evenly for the extreme, and then delayer for comfort. For 0degF the total thickness depends on what level of activity you can sustain for long periods. Bring enough to be warm at 0degF when just sitting around and trudging slowly, then delayer when more active and when its warmer. Shell layers should come off first. If you keep you main insulation layers on they will dry out. Fleece layers and skin layers can come off next, leaving thicker wool layers on. Normally you delayer bottom half more than top half, but in snow with a pack it often works to hike in sweater and pack, and add enough on the bottom half to be comfortable, even a shell layer. Whatever keeps your clothes dry or helps them dry out. Don't be afraid if they get a little damp in places sometimes, as they are capturing body heat, as long you can dry them out later by delayering.
7. When its 0degF, or getting there, conserve your energy by sustaining activity at a slow and steady pace, but some higher level of activity for 30 minutes to an hour a couple of times a day while delayered is a good way to warm up the extremities and dry out some damp clothing. Wear enough to warm up the extremities, and no shell layers, and try to dry out some damp clothing but not too much at once.
8. Stuff left out of the sleeping bag will likely be frozen solid in the morning. Dry clothing is safe also. Damp skin layers are manageable when left out in the cold, as are light shell layers. Damp 200wt fleece is manageable also. A thick wool sweaters you should try to keep on all the time so if you do take it off at night it won't freeze solid. It makes a good pillow, as is or in a stuff sack. It can also be worn at night if it is very cold.
9. Boots and socks and mitts are the usually things to be still damp by the time you go to bed. If you can make a small fire outside these are good things to dry, while wearing your wool sweater, but you can't always do this, if its too windy and snowy, or if you are too tired. Eat and rest is more important. Dry the socks and mitts and boots as best you can, perhaps with a skin layer that can be left out to sublimate dry, and then take them to bed with you.
10. Its ok to bring extra, but try not to let frozen wet socks and mitts build up.

11. 0degF is very cold, but its possible, though not practical, or comfortable, or wise, to wear enough clothing for 3 days to not even enter a sleeping bag. It would be very heavy, but its possible. I only say this to underline the idea that a 20degF bag is more than sufficient, as long as you bring enough clothing. Your total system might be a little heavier than 0degF bag and 20degF clothing, but I would rather go with a 20degF bag and 0degF clothing. Clothing is key.

12. Try not to have too much shell weight. Insulation and Food is most important. Shelter and rain shells and wind shells need to be adequate to keep you reasonably dry and make the insulation work, but it doesn't need to be heavy. Its the food and insulation that keeps you warm and dry and able to move. The shell weight needs to be just enough, it doesn't need to be bulletproof. My winter shells are a 4oz cheap light nylon wind shell top, 8oz cheap nylon wind/rain/snow pants, an 8oz rain poncho, and a 2 pound gortex bivy sac. Most of my weight is insulation layers and food.

13. Its ok to go extra heavy, as long as you don't plan on going far. Don't underestimate how much 6" of snow will slow you down with a 40 pound pack. If your not sure, but want to find out, plan your trip with multiple exit points. An in and out route is good for 3 days, where you go in one day, play the second day, and trudge out the third day, but you might have snow on the way out. A triangular route is also good, but again, snow can slow you down. If there are all sorts of exits along the way, you can go as far and fast as you like, as long as you keep your energy levels from running too low, and you clothing reasonably dry. Winter clothing doesn't need to be bone dry. It's meant to gain and lose moisture, but within limits.

saimyoji
01-13-2009, 10:28
Pour water into your pot before you go to bed that way if it freezes you can just fire up you stove and your good to go. If you dont its hard to get frozen water out of your water bottle.


turns out this is bad advice, unless you have lots of fuel handy. if the water turns to ice, it will require more energy (fuel) to convert the solid water to liquid before you can heat it up. something called heat of fusion, blah blah blah...anyways, best not to let the water freeze to begin with.



DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL OF ANY KIND IF YOU REALLY PLAN TO STAY WARM - alcohol is a vaso-dialator (sp?), and will open up all of your surface blood vessels. This does 2 things: first, it allows all of the really warm blood from your body's core to rise to the surface of your skin, thus allowing it to cool faster; second, it allows all of the cool blood that would normally be "trapped" near the skin's surface to pour into your body's core, thus cooling you faster than normal.

tee-totaller :p

JAK
01-13-2009, 10:33
14. Head and neck and hand and foot gear needs to be just as thick as your other layers in the extreme, and should include a light shell also as part of the system, but you also need to delayer these areas just like everywhere else. Hands can often go into pockets for at final extra layer for warming back up, but need to hold their own outside also. Head gear and hand gear is often the most convenient to layer and delayer as you are hiking for quick adjustment, but beware of frostbite.

15. Feet often need a range from one thin pair of socks, to thick socks and a felt liner. Make sure your footwear can accomodate the range of temperatures and activity levels. Actually footwear for 0degF is a whole other discussion in itself. There are different solutions. If the trails are mostly bare, then winter boots or mukluks are somewhat clumsy if you want to cover distance. Trail runners normally aren't adequate for 0degF in snow, but can be made to work if its only a fraction of the 3 days, and you can stay on top, and there is enough room for thick socks and some sort of liner, or they absorb very little. I wouldn't try and experiment in that area. If you want trail runners for open trails, bring something else for snow if snow is possible. Perhaps you have hiking boots which are a good compromise for both, as long as they have room for thick socks and you can keep them reasonably dry.

JAK
01-13-2009, 10:41
16. Its good to be able to make a campfire for 0degF even if you bring a stove. Lighting a fire is a little harder in 0degF as lighter are harder to work with hands, and even good fuel will have its 20% or 30% moisture frozen, which will need to melt and heat up before evaporating. Big bic lighters are easier. Use a candle to help light the fire. Stuff with oil in it helps, like cotton balls and vaseline, or potato chips, or birch bark. Wiping greasy areas under you arms and crotch with toilet paper might also work in a pinch, but don't delayer if your cold. The cans of hobbo stoves need to be a little bigger for 0degF. Campfires are more work because you have to clear snow. It's good to be able to make a campfire, or use a hobbo stove, but don't underestimate the extra work involved. Make the time though, if its legal, because its worth it, and be prepared to do it in an emergency even if it isn't legal. Its always legal in an emergency.

snowman2
01-13-2009, 14:26
Thanks to all for the information. Its a lot to look at and take in, but is seems the best way is to stay warm by layering and bring extra clothing. Going to use the bag within a bag system, just have to see if I will need to put on the extra clothing while sleeping. I will have it in the reserve column. Also seems like there is a lot to put in the bag to keep it from freezing during the night. Guess it makes a interesting night.

Thanks again,

Snowman

Kerosene
01-13-2009, 18:19
One other suggestion that I didn't see mentioned, and that I learned the hard way as a boy scout camping in -20F temps: Wear sufficiently insulating socks, but don't then try to stuff them in under-sized boots or lace up your boots too tightly.

Cookerhiker
01-13-2009, 18:35
JAK already said this: bring your boots into the sleeping bag. Pack an extra plastic bag for the boots. I've done this but failed to on one night of last year's Laurel Highlands Trail (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=221960)hike thus necessitating 20 minutes in the morning twisting and bending my boots to make them flexible.

BR360
01-13-2009, 18:36
Carry a stainless steel water bottle, like a Klean Kanteen...with the lid off, you can just heat it on directly your stove to make a ready-made hot water bottle. Place inside a sock so you don't burn yourself. The metal does get very hot.

BR360
01-13-2009, 18:38
also, it may not have been mentioned, but carry a quart-sized wide-mouth gatorade like bottle so you don't have to go outside the tent to pee in the middle of the night.

Tinker
01-13-2009, 19:38
Last weekend in New York it got down to somewhere around 5 degrees (12 was forecast low for valleys) with a wind and I was in a hammock. We melted ice which had fallen from the trees onto the snow for water (always start with a touch of water or you could damage your cookpot).
I used a 40 degree (Golite feather-lite, no longer made) and 50 degree (Montbell UALP down thermal sheets) bag combination. I pulled the Golite over the hammock and used the Montbell as a top quilt inside the Golite. I also wore a North Face Nuptse down jacket with a synth. hood from an old REI jacket over wool long johns.
I set up my 10x12 Equinox like a tent over my hammock (closing off the ends). I slept well.
If you're sleeping in a tent, especially with another person, unless the tent has mesh which cannot be closed off, you can probably use a bag with a rating 10-15 degrees warmer than the outside temp. Otherwise, at least bring a warm down jacket to wear to bed, and remember that most body heat is lost through the head. As the saying goes "If your feet are cold, put on a hat". It works.
Lastly, If you can afford it, I highly recommend using a stainless single walled waterbottle. You can keep your water warm by putting it next to a fire (if you have one), it won't leak in your sleeping bag, and if it's very hot, you can stretch your socks over it to keep it from burning you in your bag (drying your socks at the same time). I used an old SLR padded lens bag as an insulator for the bottle. It kept me warm all night and I had WARM water to start my breakfast with the next morning.

Egads
01-13-2009, 19:59
Pour water into your pot before you go to bed that way if it freezes you can just fire up you stove and your good to go. If you dont its hard to get frozen water out of your water bottle.


turns out this is bad advice, unless you have lots of fuel handy. if the water turns to ice, it will require more energy (fuel) to convert the solid water to liquid before you can heat it up. something called heat of fusion, blah blah blah...anyways, best not to let the water freeze to begin with.:p

Saimyoji is correct. It's too easy to keep your water liquid or to get some fresh water in the morning.

tom_alan
01-13-2009, 20:37
Jak had some really good points there.

One thing I have not seen mentioned is taking a good pair of sunglasses. :sun:cool::sun If you’re hiking in snow, you don’t want to burn your eyes! Can’t stress enough to dress in layers. You should have an outer layer that you can put on that is water and wind proof. This can be a very thin layer such as a shell a lot of skiers wear. It’s just enough to keep the cold off you. Make sure that you have the proper gear to keep your head, hands, and feet warm, if not this could ruin your trip. :-?

Have fun!:banana:banana

snowman2
01-14-2009, 00:07
Thanks to all. This info really helps and it will be a great trip. I have gotten some great new ideas and will put them to use.

Thanks again,

Snowman

Cool AT Breeze
01-14-2009, 00:36
Two thoughts:

1. You can rent a 0* bag from REI, Great Outdoor Provision Company, and TownsendBirtchram (just to name a few). Depending on how you feel, it may be worth it to rent the bag as a trial to decide if it is something you want to invest in.

2. An alternative to a piece of meat before bed (I'm a vegetarian, but not a vegan) is to eat 1/4 cup of butter or drink 1/4 cup of olive oil before bed. It kicks up your metabolism and makes you produce more body heat which warms your bag which retains the warmth, and in turn warms you. And it doesn't make you have to pee.

Of course, the flavor is its own issue ... but you'll be surprised what you'll eat when you wake up cold.
Hot coco with buter in it tastes pretty good.

JAK
01-14-2009, 09:29
Water can be surprisingly tricky in winter.

You can be slowed down, and need more water per mile.
Some watering holes are frozen under or dried up.
Bottles can freeze if your caught off guard.
Sometimes snow has to be melted.

Lots of good advice in above posts to mitigate these water issues. Just keep in mind water issues tend to pop up at the worst times, like when it gets extra cold, or you get snowed in or slowed down, or run out of fuel, or lost. Always good to be prepared to make a small fire and melt snow or ice in a can or aluminum or stainless steel flask.

MOWGLI
01-14-2009, 09:38
It can be much easier to find water in the winter. Particularly in the SE where you don't get a lot of snow. With the trees bare of leaves, sunlight reaches the forest floor and illuminates springs, streams and seeps down below the trail. You can see the sparkling water in the sunlight. Once the canopy fills in, you lose that for the most part.

buckwheat
01-14-2009, 10:50
Keep your water in the tent with you or if it cold enough, inside your bag (make sure your bottle doesn't leak) Also, water freezes where it has contact with air first, so if you store your water bottles upside down, you will be able to drink out of them for longer.

Canister stoves don't work well below 17* so if you plan on using one, sleep with the canister.

Around camp wear your raingear over your fleece or puffy insulating clothing for extra warmth. I am always surprised how much of a difference it makes.

Dont let your filter (if you use one) freeze. This is another item you might have to sleep with.

Here are some things you might consider with fluids freezing.

Keeping water in your bag works great, but I've also found that it's really easy to make insulating cozies, if you cut down your blue foam sleeping pad to make it lighter. I took the 1/4 remnant piece and made several items:


A sit pad 8"x8" (great for putting on cold rocks you're gonna want to sit on to keep your core from freezing without having to unpack your entire sleeping pad).
A wrap cozy for a water bottle secured with a piece of duct tape. Cut a measured circle and duct that to the bottom of the bottle. Excellent insulator. I've not had any water freezing problems at all with this although the extra weight is noticeable.
For your pack hydration unit, I sandwich this between my warm back (natually) and the sit pad I mentioned above. Keeps my 3L Camelback from freezing during the day. To keep the hose from freezing, always blow the water back into the hydration unit first. Then, turn your hose so that the bitepiece is facing skyward (this will keep the small water droplets from collecting and freezing there). Another great solution for the hose is a couple of small pieces of pipe insulation. This is the stuff you get at your hardware store that you wrap around your hot water pipes in the basement. Get 1/4" size ... good for most hydration unit tubes. Very cheap, lightweight solution for keeping your line from freezing in high wind-chill scenarios.
I made a separate cozy out of the blue foam insulation for a fuel canister. With this, you might try sticky-backed velcro to hold it on.
Raingear provides excellent protection in high wind chill scenarios ... that's why you seem warmer with it on in camp.

As others have said, keeping things unfrozen is much easier than unfreezing them. This takes planning. Same goes for yourself. Plan how you're going to not get cold in the first place. Once you are already cold, you've lost most of the battle and now you're in a war against hypothermia that unfortunately, a lot of people lose.

IceAge
01-14-2009, 13:04
I haven't seen anyone address this point yet. When you are hiking, stay CHILLY! Not cold, but just a little chilled. When you are beginning to feel even a little warm, remove a layer because the last thing you want is damp, sweaty clothes.

I often work outside here in WI in very cold winter conditions and this is the best advice I can offer.

mudhead
01-14-2009, 13:07
Good advice. The first mile or so is really questionable. Even painful.

JAK
01-14-2009, 13:55
I haven't seen anyone address this point yet. When you are hiking, stay CHILLY! Not cold, but just a little chilled. When you are beginning to feel even a little warm, remove a layer because the last thing you want is damp, sweaty clothes.

I often work outside here in WI in very cold winter conditions and this is the best advice I can offer.That's sort of what I do, except I think its also import now and then to let yourself get heated to rewarm the skin and extremities even if means a little dampness, as long as its temporary. Wool especially has a good capacity for absorbing and releasing moisture, so can let it work for you, just as long as you don't let it get out of hand. The important thing is not to bonk with damp clothing, or end up at camp for the night in damp clothing, or have to remove heavy damp clothing while hiking, but its ok to work the clothing a bit, that's what's great about wool and fleece and skin layers is that it can be worked a bit. As a rule when delayering take the wind shells off first, and leave the wool sweater on, always, removing all the other layers first. If your wool sweater is still to warm, once down to sweater and shorts, you took the wrong sweater. But that's what I do, I take the heaviest wool sweater I won't have to take off. On most nights I use it as a pillow, but I wear it when sitting up reading. Dampness needs to be managed, but isn't unmanageable.

shelterbuilder
01-15-2009, 11:21
Here's a water-trick that's a modification of something that the native northern tribes will sometimes do in order to stay hydrated in winter:

If there's snow on the ground (or ice on the trees that can be easily scraped loose), make a SMALL snowball - about the size of an ice cube - and pop it into your mouth. DO NOT SWALLOW IT, but let the heat from your mouth melt the snow into water. Every so often, swallow a bit of the water, until the snowball is gone. Repeat as needed to keep hydrated while you're walking.

(If you try to swallow the snowball, it tends to cool off your core temperature a lot, but if melted in your mouth, the water has only the same cooling effect as a swig from your bottle or platypus.)

bruchko
01-15-2009, 11:37
Tried this trick last weekend and it helped immensely. Bring several kitchen sized trash bags with you and fill them up with leaves. Put them in the tent with you to help extend the insulation of your sleeping bag. In the morning, you just dump the leaves and go. The leaves will make a big difference in your sleeping.

JAK
01-15-2009, 12:30
Here's a water-trick that's a modification of something that the native northern tribes will sometimes do in order to stay hydrated in winter:

If there's snow on the ground (or ice on the trees that can be easily scraped loose), make a SMALL snowball - about the size of an ice cube - and pop it into your mouth. DO NOT SWALLOW IT, but let the heat from your mouth melt the snow into water. Every so often, swallow a bit of the water, until the snowball is gone. Repeat as needed to keep hydrated while you're walking.

(If you try to swallow the snowball, it tends to cool off your core temperature a lot, but if melted in your mouth, the water has only the same cooling effect as a swig from your bottle or platypus.)I heard about that also and tried it last winter. I came to the conclusion that eating snow is ok while you are moving, and has the benefit of keeping you from stopping. If you are moving slow to conserve energy, or stopped but can't make fire, and its very cold, like 0F or colder, then the snowball trick is a good one. If you are moving quick and its not that cold you don't have to be as fussy. Something else to do is to squirt honey on the snow as you eat it, so you are replenshing both water and carbs together, moving or stopped without fire.

A 500ml or 1kg tub of honey is an excellent thing to bring in winter.

jesse
01-15-2009, 12:37
Got a good one man tent, but only a 20 degree bag. Was thinking of either sleeping with my fleece on or buy a 0 degree bag for the night. Input ?

Got all the needed clothes and rain gear for the wind/snow/sleet.

I have heard two different thoughts on sleeping.

1. Sleep in longjohns/polypro and have the correct rated bag.

or

2. Sleep with your fleece on and make yourself warm for the conditions.

I go with option #2. I have a 28* quilt, and use clothes to make up the difference.

Tinker
01-15-2009, 12:59
Re: Water.

When you get into camp, put your waterbottle (or hydration bladder) under your jacket to keep it from freezing. I think we forgot to mention this in addition to sleeping with your water container.

JAK
01-15-2009, 13:26
Got a good one man tent, but only a 20 degree bag. Was thinking of either sleeping with my fleece on or buy a 0 degree bag for the night. Input ?

Got all the needed clothes and rain gear for the wind/snow/sleet.

I have heard two different thoughts on sleeping.

1. Sleep in longjohns/polypro and have the correct rated bag.
or
2. Sleep with your fleece on and make yourself warm for the conditions.I would sleep in just my boxers when I could, like 20F
on colder nights step up to my long wool underwear, like 10F
on the extreme nights step up to long wool underwear and my fleece pants, like 0F.

Socks and hats and even mitts are good for quick thermal regulation.
There are other issues at 10F and below, like breathing. Wool scarves are good.

As it gets colder and you start wearing clothing to bed it should start to get dry enough that you can dry out the clothing before you go to be and after you get up by strutting around a bit. Getting up to pee in the middle of the night is a good way to dry out also. Don't be afraid to drink hot tea before bedtime, as it is nice to get up and see the stars, and you want to keep the night shift tissue repair and food digestion and warehouse crew well hydrated.

0F in a 20F bag isn't so bad, as long as your not skimping on clothing also.

The serious risk of a 20F rated bag is if you get a long night of -20F, which can happen. Its easy to get a false sense of security with several successful nights of 0F. Even for -10F, you can often get way with the clothes, and a hot water bottle, and by going to bed warm and only gradually letting you skin get colder through the night, and then get warm again after you wake up and get active. The surprise may come when its -20F, and you have to go to bed early and tired and cold because of inadequate clothing, and maybe you don't have the logistics to get the hot water bottle thing working, that's when a 0F or -10F rated bag would really be nice, and don't weigh much more than a 20F bag, though they can be pricey and aren't so useful the rest of the year. Until I get a proper winter bag I stick close to home, and go a bit overboard on clothing, and maybe make it a toboggan trudge and bring some wool blankets.

nufsaid
01-15-2009, 15:33
I agree with getting the best sleeping bag that you can and wear less clothes in the bag. The bag is designed to hold heat in , so let your own body heat radiate and you will be toasty. I have a -15 bag and I have slept out in temps much lower than that in just my underwear and a slik cap. make sure that you are off of the ground (very imporatant as others have stated). I use a Zrest under my bag and I put my thermarest in the bag with me. All of the tips mentioned will make your trip very enjoyable and you will be amazed at how comfortable you can be!

I don't have any problem with your post. Just intrigued with your user name. I bet you have an interesting story to tell.

Tinker
01-15-2009, 15:43
I don't have any problem with your post. Just intrigued with your user name. I bet you have an interesting story to tell.
It's the name of a trail in the White Mountains. http://www.maxtrails.com/trails/1004971_Six_Husbands_Trail_New_Hampshire.html

nufsaid
01-15-2009, 15:47
It's the name of a trail in the White Mountains. http://www.maxtrails.com/trails/1004971_Six_Husbands_Trail_New_Hampshire.html


I would still be interested in the story behind the name. Thanks in advance.

ASUGrad
01-15-2009, 16:35
I sleep on top of my clothes. That way I don't have to put on cold clothes in the AM.

Cold comes from the bottom, not the top. The more stuff between you and the ground, the better.

Wind is dangerous when it is really cold. It's a showstopper for me.

JAK
01-15-2009, 16:40
I would still be interested in the story behind the name. Thanks in advance.I believe the trail might have been named in reference to an Indian Tale, from the Subcontinent of Indian, not North America.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/ift/ift23.htm

There are other theories out there on the net, like it as about an insatiable Indian Princess. That description also suits this Indian Tale, but not in the sense that most people might first imagine or guess.

Slosteppin
01-15-2009, 21:39
I don't backpack when it is around 0 F and, not intentionally with snow on the ground. OTOH, I do a lot of snowshoeing and skiing with the temperature around 0 F.

I've seen a few suggestions I would like to add to. First keeping hands warm. Someone suggested mittens and liners. I would add to this with emphasis. You can't do much with mittens on your hands, but with liners you can pull off the mittens and do what you need to and then put the mittens back on before you get very cold. Wool mittens work best for me when it gets down to 0 F. Also, using hiking poles will help keep your hands warmer. I generally wear waterproof breathable mittens over light work gloves and carry heavy wool mittens in my pack.

Someone else suggested if you are using a hydration bladder and hose while hiking to blow the water back after you drink. When the temperature is below 15 F I go another step and push the bite valve and as much hose as I can down inside my shirt. I've had the bite valve freeze twice recently shortly after starting a hike even after blowing back all I could. I just put it inside my shirt and it was thawed and I could drink in less than 10 minutes.

Someone also suggested using a Platy with hot water to warm your sleeping bag. Neat idea but I would suggest taking off the hose and putting a cap on the bladder. I leaned on my pack one night (bladder still inside pack with hose attached) while getting my sleeping bag ready. I soon had a big puddle of water beside my pack on the tent floor. Not a big deal at 30 F.

Slosteppin

Doctari
01-15-2009, 23:25
Didn't see this one:

If you feel the need to pee, DO SO! It takes alot of energy to keep a bladder full of water warm. I know it sucks to get out of your (mostly) warm sleeping bag (or quilt, etc) to do so, but it is well worth the effort in the long run. To warm up a bit before getting back in your bed, do a few jumping jacks or run in place a few seconds to warm up a bit. Remember, your insulation is just that: INSULATION, it dosn't actually provide heat, it just keeps what heat you have in. So, generate some heat & be warm, at least till you need to pee again. :p

Also, if you are slightly chilled laying on your back or stomach, roll to your side, as heat rises, you will present less surface area on top, by laying on your side. At least it works for me.

snowhoe
01-16-2009, 18:12
saimyoji, It turns out that is the only way to get water when you are camping when there is nothing elese but snow. The creeks are frozen and there is s no way to get fresh moving water. You just cant bring your little alcohol stove its time for the big boy. White gas. My MSR simmerlite makes short work of this problem.

saimyoji
01-16-2009, 18:21
saimyoji, It turns out that is the only way to get water when you are camping when there is nothing elese but snow. The creeks are frozen and there is s no way to get fresh moving water. You just cant bring your little alcohol stove its time for the big boy. White gas. My MSR simmerlite makes short work of this problem.

melting snow for water is different from (and preferable to) melting a solid block of ice in your pot....but whatever. do what suits you.

FWIW... I too use the simmerlite in winter and love it. never got into the alcohol stove thing.

snowhoe
01-17-2009, 13:58
Hey Saimyoji, Do you use a titanium pot with the simmerlite? If you do has your pot warped when you melt snow or ice in it? It has warped mine thats why I have a pot for winter and warmer months. If yours hasnt warped maybe its just the pot I have I dont know. I know the pot is a snowpeak and was pretty expensive so I dont think that its a cheap pot.

WalksInDark
01-17-2009, 15:39
Being fairly cold blooded http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/images/smilies/cursing.gif, I have gone through multiple sleeping bags trying to get one warm enough for me.

Finally bit the bullet and recently bought a Montbell Ultra Light Super Stretchy 0 degree down bag http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/images/smilies/thumbup1.gif.

Having looked at some of the temps on Mt. Rogers earlier in the week http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/images/smilies/scared.gif, I decided to test my new bag in my tent in the back yard. During two nights of 4-6 degree temps (I was in Roanoke, VA, but our night time temps here were colder than the place I moved from-----Milwaukee, WI), I figured out the "Cold Weather Sleep System For Me:" put open down jacket over foot area of sleeping bag, lightweight fleece socks, regular backpacking thermal undies, wool Himalaya Sherpa's hat, neoprene face and mouth guard (I have asthma and need to pre-warm frigid air), put 300 weight fleece jacket and sweat pants at end of sleeping bag. Go to sleep until A) Nature Calls or B) feel cold; then put on pre-warmed fleece outer garments.

Verdict? Warm as toast http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

BTW, what happened to me when I did not keep my fleece items pre-warmed http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif.......it took the fleeces about an hour to warm up and, during the warm up period, I had to put on my cloth gloves to keep from shivering.

Actually, it was pretty funny to be doing all this testing in my backyard....but WHICH WOULD YOU PREFER: doing the tests within 150 feet of your house.....or in the middle of the cold, windy, dark forest some where?

BTW, by using the down coat over the sleeping bag trick, I never had to resort to thick fleece socks or my down booties. SWEET!

P.S. One lightweight thing you can add to your pack is a 1 person Heatsheets Emergency Bivvy (http://www.rei.com/product/750944?cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-na&mr:trackingCode=77AC6A5E-21E4-DD11-9B0F-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA) these little suckers weigh 3.8 ozs. are wind and waterproof...plus you can resuse them.

Dogwood
01-17-2009, 22:35
[quote=shelterbuilder;759024]Here's a water-trick that's a modification of something that the native northern tribes will sometimes do in order to stay hydrated in winter:

If there's snow on the ground (or ice on the trees that can be easily scraped loose), make a SMALL snowball - about the size of an ice cube - and pop it into your mouth. DO NOT SWALLOW IT, but let the heat from your mouth melt the snow into water. Every so often, swallow a bit of the water, until the snowball is gone. Repeat as needed to keep hydrated while you're walking.

Now, if I could only get my girlfriend.... never mind, wrong forum, wrong website!

Great quote: LIFE isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning how to dance in the rain.

Tinker
01-17-2009, 23:23
Hey Saimyoji, Do you use a titanium pot with the simmerlite? If you do has your pot warped when you melt snow or ice in it? It has warped mine thats why I have a pot for winter and warmer months. If yours hasnt warped maybe its just the pot I have I dont know. I know the pot is a snowpeak and was pretty expensive so I dont think that its a cheap pot.
You need to "prime" your ti pot with a little water when melting snow or ice chunks. Otherwise the metal will overheat and could warp.

snowhoe
01-18-2009, 00:00
Tinker too late I have a warped pot.

mkmangold
01-18-2009, 02:54
Have a non-leak pee bottle with you. Saves you from venturing out into the cold and if you hold it within the sleeping bag, releases (your body) heat.
Get hand/foot warmers. Place them on the dorsal side of your feet and hands (tops) since the blood flow is towards the extremities from there and will carry the heat where it is needed.
Wind is key. Try to hide behind a wind-stop while lighting fires and cooking. As I get older, I am beginning to realize how powerful wind is and how to minimize it's damages.