Insulated pants or just longjohns+trailpants+wind pants?

[crazypete]

Good day fellow hikers.

I'm trying to figure out if it is a good idea to take my montbell insulated pants (puffy style ski pants but very light= 13 ounces and very packable) on a thru. I'd be leaving early march or even late feb.

Does anyone else thru with insulated pants or do you find them unnecessary?

Thanks for your input and keep up the good fight.

[Johnny Thunder]

Unless you're leaving before March 1st (and need a warm layer for use in camp) then these pants aren't going to be right for you. You'd still need to bring long underwear so that you have something to wear while hiking in cool weather.

[rdsoxfan]

I just came from GA and its in the mid to upper 60's with an occasional colder day. Hiker pants with a mid layer thermal base will be fine until you get into April. Especially with you hiking and working up a sweat.

[JAK]

I think its always better to keep your shell separate from your insulation.
The exception to this rule is sleeping bags, and arctic/alpine gear for below 0degF.

I would suggest the following bottom half for an early start:
0. short underwear of your choice - just one set
1. skin layer of your choice (silk or poly or wool), not too tight
2. a wool or fleece layer that you reserve primarily for sleep wear in cold conditions, but which are sized to fit over your skin layer and under your 200wt fleece pants.
3. loose 200wt fleece pants, which you can blouse up when warm.
4. hiking shorts, plus light wind pants.

This should give you lots of flexibility and not take up much pack space or require insulated pants.
Similar deal up top; layers plus a light wind shell, plus a rain shell as well.

[sticks&stones]

ohh, pluffy pants, sounds wonderful, but unnecessary for a thru. Fluffy jacket yes, keep your core toasty, and that warm blood will flow to your extremities.

[sasquatch2014]

I don't think that Ga will be cooler at that time of year than New York was this past weekend. I have a expedition weight long underwear that I put on under my convertible hiking pants and was more than warm enough. I had a pair of fleece pants that I had for use at camp but didn't bother putting them on as I was warm enough even in camp. I got mine from Campmor.

[JAK]

ohh, pluffy pants, sounds wonderful, but unnecessary for a thru. Fluffy jacket yes, keep your core toasty, and that warm blood will flow to your extremities. I think its better to dress evenly for the extreme, and to use some activity now and then to reheat the extremities. I have a big hooded helly hansen fleece jacket though, which is big enough to fit over my wool sweater, and over my knees when I hunker down. I am finding it very useful in the cold weather this winter. I'm still not a fan of big puffy jackets though. If you have the layers for the extremes you might encounter, it should be enough to add some of those and a light wind shell when in camp.

[crazypete]

I think its always better to keep your shell separate from your insulation.
The exception to this rule is sleeping bags, and arctic/alpine gear for below 0degF.

I would suggest the following bottom half for an early start:
0. short underwear of your choice - just one set
1. skin layer of your choice (silk or poly or wool), not too tight
2. a wool or fleece layer that you reserve primarily for sleep wear in cold conditions, but which are sized to fit over your skin layer and under your 200wt fleece pants.
3. loose 200wt fleece pants, which you can blouse up when warm.
4. hiking shorts, plus light wind pants.

This should give you lots of flexibility and not take up much pack space or require insulated pants.
Similar deal up top; layers plus a light wind shell, plus a rain shell as well.

That seems to be 4 sets of pants you have there: underwear+skin +fleece +200wt fleece+shorts+ wind/rain pants.

Does one usually need this much? The only reason I bring this up is my legs got cold on a few occasions camping in the whites so I got myself a "medium weight" smartwool top+bottom to wear with my light convertible pants and rain pants and I've worn this combo skiing and its held up fine under conditions where I'm basically just standing around or sitting on a ski lift.

I went and picked up the montbell pants as lightweight insurance/campwear but found that they dont pack down enough and my bag is bulging at the seams when I finally wedge it all in there.

I know mountain temps can be quite extreme, including wind chill. Just trying to get a feel for the appropriateness of this gear.

Sounds like the general concensus is "no" for the south.

But how about the whites during a through hike?

[Slo-go'en]

If I had nice fluffy pants, I'd bring them that time of year until I got to VA. Will be quite nice in camp. You should still have a pair of long johns, but can be light weight ones.

[JAK]

That seems to be 4 sets of pants you have there: underwear+skin +fleece +200wt fleece+shorts+ wind/rain pants.

Does one usually need this much? The only reason I bring this up is my legs got cold on a few occasions camping in the whites so I got myself a "medium weight" smartwool top+bottom to wear with my light convertible pants and rain pants and I've worn this combo skiing and its held up fine under conditions where I'm basically just standing around or sitting on a ski lift.

I went and picked up the montbell pants as lightweight insurance/campwear but found that they dont pack down enough and my bag is bulging at the seams when I finally wedge it all in there.

I know mountain temps can be quite extreme, including wind chill. Just trying to get a feel for the appropriateness of this gear.

Sounds like the general concensus is "no" for the south.

But how about the whites during a through hike?Well that is all my bottom layers, with no spares, but yeah I can wear all that at once in extreme conditions if I had to, or mix and match without worrying about fit. The actual weight depends on the extreme I am prepared for, but the lightest system with these layers would be as follows...

0. short underwear - flannel boxers - I one set of these for comfort and a little extra warmth in that area on most days when just wearing a light skin layer and hiking shorts and they are also good for sleeping in on most days but nit the coldest. They are hygenic, as one pair is easy to wash and dry, as you aren't totally dependant on them everyday as there are the other layers. Not sure about the weight, 2oz maybe.
1. skin layer - silk or polyester 3-4oz.
2. extra looser skin layer, normally for sleeping - wool or polyester 6-8oz
3. loose 200wt fleece pants - 13oz, could be 8oz 100wt.
4. Hiking shorts and light nylon wind pants or rain pants - 5oz? + 4-8oz

So 2+3+6+8+5+4 to 2+4+8+13+5+8 = 28oz to 40oz
So I think there is some flexibility there depending on how low the hiking temperature might get, and how much rain you might have to deal with. Once the warm weather comes you could ditch a layer. The top layers would be similar. I find the top layers a little heavier for the same total thickness...

0. no short sleeved cotton undershirt, but maybe in summer
1. skin layer - silk or polyester 4-5oz.
2. extra looser skin layer, normally for sleeping - wool or polyester 8-10oz
3. loose knit wool sweater, light or medium or heavy - 12-24oz
4. Light wind shell plus a rain shell - 4-5oz + 8-12oz

So 4+8+12+4+8 to 5+10+24+5+12 = 36oz to 56oz
So again, quite a range depending on minimum hiking temperature, and you would ditch a layer in summer.

[Deadeye]

Even in sub-zero temps, the most I hike in is long johns and shell pants, anything more is too hot for activity. Puffy pants are needed camp in mid-winter New England, but I wouldn't carry them starting the AT in late winter. YMMV

[JAK]

We were talking about a late February early March start right? Hiking temperatures down as low as 10F? Plus some extra wieght on the clothing side can make up for a sleeping bag rated only down to 20F, or even 30F, unless you wanted to trade up bags later.

[bruchko]

As an option, I'd reccommend shorts with Marmot dri clime pants. The dri clime pants are extremely warm and have zippers up the side so you can vent your legs to match the elements. Very nice and much easier to layer than shorts over long underwear. Long underwear just gets too warm for me unless you are in the coldest of situations.

[JAK]

Even in sub-zero temps, the most I hike in is long johns and shell pants, anything more is too hot for activity. Puffy pants are needed camp in mid-winter New England, but I wouldn't carry them starting the AT in late winter. YMMVI hike in short, bare legs, down to 20F, but we aren't just talking about hiking right?

[JAK]

I don't think puffy pants are at all needed at all above -20F,
as long as you have a decent mix of layers, and a light wind shell or rain shell.

[JAK]

I don't think dedicated camp gear makes any sense, for saving weight or volume.
What you carry for slow hiking in the extremes, should be good enough for camp.

[crazypete]

So I guess the moral of the story is:

add some fleece pants and forget the puffy pants.

But it begs the question weather fleece pants pack down any more than the montbells do?

My main problem right now is bulk.

[Jaybird]

...........I'm trying to figure out if it is a good idea to take my montbell insulated pants (puffy style ski pants ..............................


WOW, CP...
Unless you are just downright COLD-natured...
LEAVE 'em @ home...regular hiking pants (or convertibles) with a base-layer is good for MARCH winds & some SNOW encounters.

GOOD LUCK with your hike.
Maybe I'll see you out there in MAY as "Jigsaw" & i head NOBO from Harpers Ferry up into PA. (May1-15)

[ChinMusic]

Winter OR summer: REI Sahara Convertable pants. Nothing additional for hiking.

For rain: summer prob nothing, just get wet (Saharas dry fast), for cold: rain pants like Marmot Precip or Frogg Toggs.

For winter camp: I add Montbell down inner pants (~7 oz).

No wool, no longjohns, no fleece.

[JAK]

200wt fleece is bulky, but I get by in winter with a Jam2. Depends on the rest of gear and clothing. You can also keep alot of clothing on while hiking and not overheat by taking off all your wind shells, and hat and mitts, and skin layers and hiking in shorts. You might have to pack your 200wt fleece pants on warm days, but you should be able to keep the wool sweater on. I'm not sure how much room he has, and what other gear he has. In generally, I think you can use just as little pack volume by using a wool sweater and light shell for camp as with a down jacket for camp, because a wool sweater isn't too warm when worn alone, but it is plenty warm for camp by adding just a shell. Layering systems work best when they don't include down layers, just wool and fleece and skin layers and light shells.

[crazypete]

We were talking about a late February early March start right? Hiking temperatures down as low as 10F? Plus some extra wieght on the clothing side can make up for a sleeping bag rated only down to 20F, or even 30F, unless you wanted to trade up bags later.

Isnt that windblown 10 degrees, though?

I always hike with a zero degree bag. It's the ultimate insurance. I have spent too many nights shivering in a 25 degree bag so now I always carry my rei kilo zero. Best bag I ever owned.

[JAK]

In many ways, down jackets and pants are contrary to layering systems. They aren't as flexible. They are taking the idea of using an insulated jacket and trying to make it light and packable, but its still contrary to the idea of layering. You still need some other layers, to the insulated jackets and pants don't add as much as they limit the flexibility of other layers and get in the way. You have to look at total system weight and volume, and flexibility, and puffy clothing doesn't add up until you get into extreme arctic and alpine conditions, where it does start to make a valuable contribution. There are applications above 0F, but generally, puffy layers are more of a fashion item, like heavy far-west type jackets.

Layering = skin layers + wool layers + fleece layers + light shells.

[JAK]

Isnt that windblown 10 degrees, though?

I always hike with a zero degree bag. It's the ultimate insurance. I have spent too many nights shivering in a 25 degree bag so now I always carry my rei kilo zero. Best bag I ever owned.Some use thicker sleeping bag rather than thicker clothing for insurance. I use thicker clothing for insurance and just enough sleeping bag for the extremes with some of the clothing. Clothing is cheaper, and heavier, but you end up with alot more options. I am warm in my bag when I get the extreme I'm prepared for, and I'm also not afraid to get out of my bag and shelter in such conditions. Think about it.

I think extreme mountaineering calls for more bag and shelter,
but I think most hiking below the treeline should depend more on clothing.

[ChinMusic]

In many ways, down jackets and pants are contrary to layering systems. They aren't as flexible. They are taking the idea of using an insulated jacket and trying to make it light and packable, but its still contrary to the idea of layering. You still need some other layers, to the insulated jackets and pants don't add as much as they limit the flexibility of other layers and get in the way. You have to look at total system weight and volume, and flexibility, and puffy clothing doesn't add up until you get into extreme arctic and alpine conditions, where it does start to make a valuable contribution. There are applications above 0F, but generally, puffy layers are more of a fashion item, like heavy far-west type jackets.

Layering = skin layers + wool layers + fleece layers + light shells.
For legs I totally disagree. For upper body I agree.

I have no need for wool or fleece for my legs.

[Grumpy5280]

For legs I totally disagree. For upper body I agree.

I have no need for wool or fleece for my legs.

...and thus we have Exhibit "A" on how people adapt different styles based upon their personal experiences, preferences, and beliefs.

HYOH.

[River Runner]

I like my insulated pants for late winter/early spring backpacking trips. They are actually lighter than fleece or mid-weight base layers. I can also wear them to sleep in and use a lighter sleeping bag. It's really nice to get up in the morning and still wear part of my warmth.

Everyone is a little different and needs to make their choice based on their own needs. I know for myself if my legs are cold, I am cold all over. For some reason I am better off going lighter on my upper body layers than skimping on the lower layers.

My lower body system for when I anticipate temps around 20 F is a light wool base layer that can be used hiking or for sleeping, convertible pants for hiking, insulated pants for sleeping.

The best way to figure it out for yourself is to spend some time camping out in the type of weather you anticipate having on the early part of your thru and use what works best for you. Bulk wise the insulated pants may have a slight edge over fleece of equivalent warmth.

[hopefulhiker]

I hiked with just silk weight long johns and the full zip rain pants in 05. The full zip allowed a lot of ventilation..

[crazypete]

I hiked with just silk weight long johns and the full zip rain pants in 05. The full zip allowed a lot of ventilation..

You had shorts or convertibles too, right?

[mudhead]

I hike in short, bare legs, down to 20F, but we aren't just talking about hiking right?
Fine if it works for you... Won't work for me.
You trying to get someone's nads frozen?

[crazypete]

A buddy of mine hiked in shorts and long johns into the most BITTER cold of winter. He felt fine. Some people just have the internal furnace.

[nitewalker]

In many ways, down jackets and pants are contrary to layering systems. They aren't as flexible. They are taking the idea of using an insulated jacket and trying to make it light and packable, but its still contrary to the idea of layering. You still need some other layers, to the insulated jackets and pants don't add as much as they limit the flexibility of other layers and get in the way. You have to look at total system weight and volume, and flexibility, and puffy clothing doesn't add up until you get into extreme arctic and alpine conditions, where it does start to make a valuable contribution. There are applications above 0F, but generally, puffy layers are more of a fashion item, like heavy far-west type jackets.

Layering = skin layers + wool layers + fleece layers + light shells.


jak, you are totally correct about needing more optoins for hiking in weather during february. the weather at that time of year changes so much that the need for normal layering is essential. it is harder to prepare during this time because of the weather changes. the puffy pants are not needed if you already have a base layer underwear, lite pant outer and a rain pant. these 3 items alone will keep you warm at all times. now if you pack a camp fleece it can be added to the other layers for the occasional super cold nites that may be encountered.

IMHO it is easier to prepare for hiking in extreme cold than it is to prepare for temps that can vary from 70* during the day to possible lows at nite of10* or lower. thats tough hiking when the temps change like that... most people hike with minimal amounts of leggings due to extreme body heat generated by the energy output. i prefer zipoffs during most hikes that i take in feburary with an occasional under layer if morning starts are really cold then i adjust as the day moves on..

no need for the puffy pants unless you are going to be on mt washington during feburary. if so i really suggest the puffy pants.:D

[JAK]

Fine if it works for you... Won't work for me.
You trying to get someone's nads frozen?You still have to have all the other layers with you, and put them on if you get cold.

Its amazing though how sometimes all else being equal you legs are warm, with just a skin layer or even naked, and other time you might have fleece pants on in about the same conditions and you start growing an icicle. I find flannel boxers useful, as they are good for absorbing post urination drips, and you can always go to another layer if the flannel boxers do get wet for whatever reason. Another good trick sometimes is to put them on backwards so as to get less ventilation in front. If I'm just out for a run I will wear wind/rain pants over a skin layer on cold windy days, but if I'm hiking I will put on my fleece pants over a skin layer or flannel boxers, and save the wind/rain shell for stopping. Same with my sweater. If your carrying it all anyway, its better to wear the heavy sweater and leave the skin layer and wind shell and rain shell in your pack until you need it. The wind husts blow through the sweater now and then and take moisture away and cool the skin, but other times you skin warms back up and your moisture and heat gets captured in the sweater and given back. If you stop, you just put your wind shell on and you sweater is already warm and dry.

[JAK]

A buddy of mine hiked in shorts and long johns into the most BITTER cold of winter. He felt fine. Some people just have the internal furnace.I think most of it is only temporary. Eventually you have to put layers on like everyone else. Just for a period of time, while the long johns are absorbing a little vapour and recapturing that heat, and your skin is cooling, you can be in a deficite situation, but still be warm, long enough to wait for a bus, or even to stop in the middle of a hike and make tea, but eventually you will have to put layers on like everyone else, or get moving. Some people do get by with up to 1/2" less layers though for the same level of activity, without being hypothermic, but I think it has more to do with them tolerating lower skin temperatures for a time, and having their skin in that vasoconstricted state, which acts like a layer on clothing, maybe the equivalent of 100wt fleece. On the other extreme some people like to overdress, so their skin never vasoconstricts, and they perspire a little more, so they need thicker layers. I think its best to bring more layers than you need, but wear less sometimes to get your skin in shape, but not to the point of frostbite, and not when you need to be conserving energy, like before a storm, or if you might fall in water. Also you need to warm the skin up now and then with more layers or more activity. I think its ok to sweat a little sometimes also, contrary to popular opinion, to get the blood flowing really well to the skin and extremities, just as long as you delayer to dry the layers out again.

[crazypete]

no need for the puffy pants unless you are going to be on mt washington during feburary. if so i really suggest the puffy pants.:D


This is what I wanted to hear! I'll still want to test my triple layer again in the upcoming bitter cold but I'm always happy to drop a piece of equiptment and reduce the pack size.

The ultimate test for me is to go outside and just stand there for half an hour in the bitter cold to simulate camp conditions. We got some yummy bitter cold coming through so wish me luck!

[crazypete]

My new apartment is giving me a lot of cold acclimation! :)

Im also walking 3 miles to work in whatever nature decides to throw at me that day and today, I got some extra acclimation.

I'd rather improve myself than carry extra gear.

[JAK]

This is what I wanted to hear! I'll still want to test my triple layer again in the upcoming bitter cold but I'm always happy to drop a piece of equiptment and reduce the pack size.

The ultimate test for me is to go outside and just stand there for half an hour in the bitter cold to simulate camp conditions. We got some yummy bitter cold coming through so wish me luck!I like to do that also, but I think it takes more than a half hour to really know. Your skin can play tricks on you. A better test is to go for about an hour walk, in your camp clothes your testing just to get a little damp in them, maybe to the convenience store and back, and then stop for an hour when you get back, like go out on the back patio with a cup of coffee. Best to do this at night without sun. Sun plays tricks on you also. I don't actually do this. Its usually day hikes or walks to work. For the clothing test I did last year I got up before sunrise and walked down to this little island about 500m across some frozen ice, about 2km from home, then stop and stand around and make breakfast, then walked the other 2km to work. The cold and damp does needs time to set in. Not even sure that was enough. My hobo stove didn't work. Needs to be bigger in cold weather. My layers were ok I think, but I think over 3-5 days it wouldn't have been enough for those same conditions. Not sure. Can't even remember what my layers were now. lol

[Grinder]

Layers Rock!!!

No one garment can have the versatility of three or four layers.

Grinder

[ChinMusic]

no need for the puffy pants unless you are going to be on mt washington during feburary. if so i really suggest the puffy pants.:D
I'm good in winter with simple convertable hiking pants and "puffy pants" (Montbell down inner pants ~ 7oz). I get all the camp warmth I need for a mere 7 oz. Can't beat it.