View Full Version : White Gas Stove VS. Alcohol Stove Which is the best?
Hello I have been wondering which stove would fit my needs.
White Gas Stove or Alcohol Stove
the two brands that i am looking at are
For the white gas a msr whisperlight stove
and for the alcohol mini trangia 28
I need something that has easily about to get fuel, dependable, cheap, efficient, and uses less fuel for cooking( for long hikes)
Which do you think?
Also can you help me understand alcohol a bit more. The alcohol that is used for burning is it the same you use to keep a wound? Were would you buy it in the first aid section, camping, or car?
Thanks for everything!
Welcome to Whiteblaze!
Before people can weigh in on what sort of stove will suit your needs, it would be good for you to describe in more detail what your needs are.
Cooking? Or just boiling water?
One person? Or four?
Three season? Or winter?
In general, for a solo hiker in normal weather conditions, an alcohol stove is lighter and has fewer working parts than white gas stoves.
Medical alcohol is not at all good for burning. The best stuff is ethanol (Everclear), but it's expensive because it's taxed as drinking liquor. Next best, and most widely used, is methanol. You can buy it in big cans at hardware stores, usually in the paint department. Somewhere on the can it usually mentions that it's marine fuel. Another way to get it is at gas stations and auto parts stores, as Heet, in the yellow bottles. The red bottles are some sort of petroleum product, and won't work.
Alcohol packs a lot fewer BTUs per ounce than gasoline. In general, long-distance hikers don't do all that much actual cooking, so an alcohol stove sytem works well enough, and is much lighter. If you either do a lot of cooking, are going to a very cold place (melting snow for water), or are cooking for several people, a gasoline stove is a better choice.
One option you didn't mention is a canister stove. They are definitely the least fiddly option. Have you looked at them?
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 08:58
Marta makes an excellent point: there is no "best" stove in the general sense.
Each stove is designed to offer a certain set of features ... but often come with drawbacks. Fuel is also a variable, as certain fuels are easier to find and cheaper.
Alcohol stoves are very lightweight, but boil water very slowly owing to the low BTU output, and aren't very effective in high wind and usually are suited to cooking (or boiling) small quantities. If you are cooking for yourself, have a heavy pack, and plenty of time, and don't expect windy weather ... this might suit you.
Canister stoves (such as the JetBoil) are much better in windy conditions, heat water faster, can heat larger quantities of water more quickly and start easily. Drawback: Extra weight usually, and highly expensive fuel ... up to $150.00 per gallon.
White gas stoves, because they use a different type of fuel, are suited best to "living large" style cooking. White gas is Naptha and is similar to unleaded gasoline. Very cheap fuel (relatively) and easy to procure. White gas stoves are usually heavier though.
So, there really isn't a "best" type of stove. There are many types of stoves that do many different types of things well, with various drawbacks to each design. To pick an appropriate stove, you first really have to ask yourself what your intended use is and whether you'll be able to find fuel for it in the intended area where you'll be.
You may find you need more than one type of stove/fuel combination.
To add to Marta's and Buckwheats excellent posts...
Between pure ethanol and methanol is Denatured alcohol. Usually 95% ethanol with 5% methanol as a denaturing agent. I believe this is even more popularly used than methanol. Ethanol has more BTU than methanol 13k btu/lb vs 10k btu/lb so it is a considerable difference but as BW said, white gas and butane (mixes) have much higher btu.
All that said, I use alcohol stoves in all weather conditions for up to 4 people. My stoves of choice are the Starlyte (for solo) and the Fancee Feest (for groups).
Marta makes an excellent point: there is no "best" stove in the general sense.
Each stove is designed to offer a certain set of features ... but often come with drawbacks. Fuel is also a variable, as certain fuels are easier to find and cheaper.
Alcohol stoves are very lightweight, but boil water very slowly owing to the low BTU output, and aren't very effective in high wind and usually are suited to cooking (or boiling) small quantities. If you are cooking for yourself, have a heavy pack, and plenty of time, and don't expect windy weather ... this might suit you.
Canister stoves (such as the JetBoil) are much better in windy conditions, heat water faster, can heat larger quantities of water more quickly and start easily. Drawback: Extra weight usually, and highly expensive fuel ... up to $150.00 per gallon.
White gas stoves, because they use a different type of fuel, are suited best to "living large" style cooking. White gas is Naptha and is similar to unleaded gasoline. Very cheap fuel (relatively) and easy to procure. White gas stoves are usually heavier though.
So, there really isn't a "best" type of stove. There are many types of stoves that do many different types of things well, with various drawbacks to each design. To pick an appropriate stove, you first really have to ask yourself what your intended use is and whether you'll be able to find fuel for it in the intended area where you'll be.
You may find you need more than one type of stove/fuel combination.
I generally agree with Marta and the above, with a few comments. I think the quoted post over-states the boiling time factor a bit. While it is slower than a white gas or canister, it isn't at all discouraging or even annoying. Especially for the volume of water needed for one person, the alcohol works plenty fast. Most folks don't have that much to do in the evenings so five or six minutes to boil your water vs three or four isn't that big of deal.
Also, I find the wind problem is fairly easily handled with a good wind screen, and, in exceptional conditions, you can set your food bag, water bottles, stones, whatever around the perimeter of your stove to aid even further. Not really a huge deal unless there is a full-on hurricane or a major storm. :)
I know folks love their canister stoves. I've never owned one (other than propane - talk about HEAVY) so take my opinion for what it is - opinion. I've generally rejected them because:
- partial canisters are difficult to judge come the next trip. Will I have enough fuel in this canister, must I carry another full one also?
- must carry the empty canisters back out - much heavier than an empty Gaterade bottle.
- while replacement canisters ARE available, you are more limited in re-supply options, so must put more fuel planning into the equation.
Sounds like I'm pushing alcohol, I am currently prejudiced. I've used white gas for decades, LOVE my SEVA stove, and depend on it for winter or group cooking. That said, over the past few years I have been won over to pepsi can alcohol stoves as the absolute lightest and perfectly effective stove - especially on the AT, where fuel is in such ready supply.
You'll have to evaluate your own needs and make your own decision. Any of the options discussed will work well for a thru.
Any other specific questions, fill us in about your intended use as Marta suggested and ask away! Also, WELCOME to Whiteblaze.
Alligator
01-14-2009, 09:47
I have the mini 28. It's a nice package deal, especially for the price. It's small overall but workable, particularly if you like to fry something once in a while. I eventually got a slighter larger pot with frypan lid and a more efficient stove (Brasslite).
I liked Buckwheat's "living large" comment, it's a good way to sum it up for a white gas stove. They are heavier, but I can cook whenever the hell I want really:D. I use mine in the winter and also use it when hiking with my buddy or with the family. I don't worry about rationing fuel to any extent, the way one tends to do with an alky stove.
I'd suggest a simmerlite over a whisperlite if you go with white gas.
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 10:05
Sounds like I'm pushing alcohol, I am currently prejudiced.
Like I said, alcohol stoves have a lot of excellent features ... but some minuses. They are appropriate for certain times of the year, certain areas of the country, but perform very poorly in other times of the year and, for example, at altitude.
That's why there's no one stove design that will fit all possible needs. So, the best thing to do is to first define your need ... then go for the stove that best meets that need.
For hiking below ridgeline in summer, an alcohol stove is well-suited.
For hiking above ridgeline in Colorado in February, an alcohol stove would not be a suitable choice.
More information to sift through;
http://zenstoves.net/StoveChoices.htm#Cold
It has been said many times here and on other sites that alcohol stoves do not work in very cold temps. This is NOT a true generalization. Unlike the other types of stoves the construction/design of homemade (and commercial) alcohol stoves differ greatly in the way they operate. Because of this, some are excellent in the cold. Any pressurized or semi-pressurized stove will have some difficulties in the cold. The Starlyte and Fancee Feest I use in temps nearing 0*F with no problem at all, not even a difficulty to light... no priming... nothing. Alcohol works very well in the cold IF one uses the right stove. Cannisters are horrible in the cold.
The Mini Trangia's pot support is too short. If you raise the pot up an inch above the pot support your water will boil faster. If you make a pot support out of an old coffee can (1lb.) an inch taller than the included one, you'll be amazed at how much more efficient the stove is.............
Then make a Supercat, and wonder why you bought the Trangia. (Except that you can simmer with the Trangia and won't crush it if you step on it by mistake).
It has been said many times here and on other sites that alcohol stoves do not work in very cold temps. This is NOT a true generalization. Unlike the other types of stoves the construction/design of homemade (and commercial) alcohol stoves differ greatly in the way they operate. Because of this, some are excellent in the cold. Any pressurized or semi-pressurized stove will have some difficulties in the cold. The Starlyte and Fancee Feest I use in temps nearing 0*F with no problem at all, not even a difficulty to light... no priming... nothing. Alcohol works very well in the cold IF one uses the right stove. Cannisters are horrible in the cold.
The above is true, but neglects to note that a SIGNIFICANTLY higher amount of alcohol (and more time) will be needed to accomplish the same tasks at low temps. when compared with either white gas or cannister stoves.
Alcohol at cold temps:
Lower stove weight.
Higher fuel weight.
More.............WAIT:D!
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 12:47
It has been said many times here and on other sites that alcohol stoves do not work in very cold temps.
An alcohol stove will emit a set BTU, depending on its design and fuel. So, at sea level 68-degrees, one will heat 2 cups of water in a certain time period (usually 6-8 minutes for most of the familiar designs).
At altitude, in much colder weather, the stove does not emit any more BTUs, but must now heat colder water (or evevn frozen water) in colder containers. This, naturally, takes longer. Boil times can reach 30 minutes or longer, depending on air temperature and air pressure and the temperature of what you are trying to heat (water in this case at close to freezing). Typically, at high altitudes, winds are such that these stoves are unsuitable.
They work in theory, but not in practice. And anyone who tries to tell you these stoves work well at altitude are invariably trying to sell you one. You will find them useless once you get atop a mountain (not a 4,000-foot hill ... a real mountain.)
Cookerhiker
01-14-2009, 12:48
In addition to the responses on this thread, you'll find scads of other threads dealing with stove questions. Just do a search in the "Gear" section. Here's a recent example (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42810&highlight=stoves).
Lyle's response touched on canister stoves. I've very content with my Coleman Fi Exponent Ultralight (http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=9741AA00C&categoryid=2005) and all I'm saying is to broaden your field of consideration to include canisters.
As others have said, it all boils down (pun intended) to what you're cooking. My Coleman is fuel-efficient in that in simmers low when necessary and it did fine both at high elevations (John Muir Trail (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=4830)) and in 20 degree temps last year on the Laurel Highlands Trail (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=221960).
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 13:05
My Coleman is fuel-efficient in that in simmers low when necessary and it did fine both at high elevations (John Muir Trail (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=4830)) and in 20 degree temps last year on the Laurel Highlands Trail (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=221960).
Cookerhiker,
Would you rely on a denatured alcohol Pepsi can stove/aluminum foil windscreen at altitude on the John Muir Trail?
Cookerhiker
01-14-2009, 13:21
Cookerhiker,
Would you rely on a denatured alcohol Pepsi can stove/aluminum foil windscreen at altitude on the John Muir Trail?
I tried an alcohol stove for about a month and decided it didn't meet my cooking needs under any conditions. That's personal preference. Have others used alcohol on the JMT? Not sure, but I think so. It seems to me that if all you want is to boil water, you're still limited at the high elevations with a Pepsi can - will the water get hot enough to use for your meal before running out? I don't know.
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 13:58
I tried an alcohol stove for about a month and decided it didn't meet my cooking needs under any conditions. That's personal preference. Have others used alcohol on the JMT? Not sure, but I think so. It seems to me that if all you want is to boil water, you're still limited at the high elevations with a Pepsi can - will the water get hot enough to use for your meal before running out? I don't know.
Thanks for the benefit of your experience.
Can you tell us more about why the alcohol stove didn't meet your needs. I'm not trying to bash the alcohol stove users ... as I think there is a stove for all seasons, so to speak. The OP is asking "which is the best stove" and I'm trying to figure out, even for myself, when an alcohol stove is appropriate and when it's not going to work for me.
Thanks,
Buckwheat
ARambler
01-14-2009, 14:04
Cookerhiker,
Would you rely on a denatured alcohol Pepsi can stove/aluminum foil windscreen at altitude on the John Muir Trail?
Virtually all of JMT is the same as the pct. Most pct hikers use alcohol with canisters a close second.
I agree that alcohol users struggle more than canister users.
Make sure you practice with either stove ahead of time. There are way too many burns on picnic tables with alcohol. My alcohol stove was one of the worst, and I got a small tin catch pan. This also helped prime the stove by spilling a little on purpose. However a pan is not necessary and almost never used.
Rambler
Have others used alcohol on the JMT? Not sure, but I think so.
I did in 2006. I used a canister stove in 2008. It had to do with cooking for 2 in 2008 versus 1 in 2006.
For the newbies out there, there is no such thing as the best (fill in the blank). It doesn't exist. It's all about your individual needs, your budget, and your preferences.
An alcohol stove will emit a set BTU, depending on its design and fuel. So, at sea level 68-degrees, one will heat 2 cups of water in a certain time period (usually 6-8 minutes for most of the familiar designs).
At altitude, in much colder weather, the stove does not emit any more BTUs, but must now heat colder water (or evevn frozen water) in colder containers. This, naturally, takes longer. Boil times can reach 30 minutes or longer, depending on air temperature and air pressure and the temperature of what you are trying to heat (water in this case at close to freezing). Typically, at high altitudes, winds are such that these stoves are unsuitable.
They work in theory, but not in practice. And anyone who tries to tell you these stoves work well at altitude are invariably trying to sell you one. You will find them useless once you get atop a mountain (not a 4,000-foot hill ... a real mountain.)
Note: my response specifically referred to temperature not altitude. (yes I know they are related)
They work in theory, but not in practice. And anyone who tries to tell you these stoves work well at altitude are invariably trying to sell you one. You will find them useless once you get atop a mountain (not a 4,000-foot hill ... a real mountain.)
That "theory" has worked just fine for me (repeatedly) at 11,000'+ on the Colorado Trail and the John Muir Trail. ;)
And anyone who tries to tell you these stoves work well at altitude are invariably trying to sell you one. You will find them useless once you get atop a mountain (not a 4,000-foot hill ... a real mountain.)
While I would not use an alcohol stove for extensive winter hiking (use too much fuel to melt snow), altitude is NOT a problem. Seeing as I have boiled water at 13k ft in October on the divide (and quicker than the the white gas stove users due to the futz factor. :) ), I'm gonna say the statement of altitude is wrong. :)
As I always say THERE IS NO BEST OF ANY GEAR.
Here is my stove comparison article. I think it is an even-handed and realistic overview:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-Hiking-documents/stove_comparison.html
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 16:20
While I would not use an alcohol stove for extensive winter hiking (use too much fuel to melt snow), altitude is NOT a problem.
Mags,
As always, your insights would serve any hiker well. I mentioned altitude primarily due to the winds prevalent above treeline. Frequently, I see alcohol stove designs that are doomed without windscreens, and frequently, those are very flimsy.
Should the liklihood of the higher winds at higher altitudes effect stove choice?
Should the liklihood of the higher winds at higher altitudes effect stove choice?
More temps than wind IMO. Use a wind screen. Simple folded foil works well..at least it did for me. :)
More temps than wind IMO. Use a wind screen. Simple folded foil works well..at least it did for me. :)
I concur. There are also some nice systems and screens available for those not interested in DIY. Tinman's Antigravity Gear website has some good stuff;
http://www.antigravitygear.com/
Cookerhiker
01-14-2009, 17:22
I tried an alcohol stove for about a month and decided it didn't meet my cooking needs under any conditions. That's personal preference. Have others used alcohol on the JMT? Not sure, but I think so. It seems to me that if all you want is to boil water, you're still limited at the high elevations with a Pepsi can - will the water get hot enough to use for your meal before running out? I don't know.
Thanks for the benefit of your experience.
Can you tell us more about why the alcohol stove didn't meet your needs. I'm not trying to bash the alcohol stove users ... as I think there is a stove for all seasons, so to speak. The OP is asking "which is the best stove" and I'm trying to figure out, even for myself, when an alcohol stove is appropriate and when it's not going to work for me.
Thanks,
Buckwheat
Mostly, it's the way I do dinner. I like to cook whole wheat pasta e.g. elbow macaroni or bulgur wheat or brown rice with dried vegetables and then add sauce mixes. After bringing the water to a boil (with the pasta or wheat in it), I'll use the simmer feature for most of the cooking. Then while eating, I'm boiling a second pot for hot chocolate or tea and for washing dishes.
I find that with experience, I get better at using the stove to minimize cook time and judging the fuel left.
Again it's a matter of personal preference - not only for which stove & fuel you feel most comfortable with but also what kind of food you cook.
Again it's a matter of personal preference - not only for which stove & fuel you feel most comfortable with but also what kind of food you cook.
If you don't feel like reading my ramblings in its entirety (who would??? ? ;))
Here is my personal summary:
OVERALL SUMMARY
There are many stoves to choose from. Which one is the best depends upon your intended use.
If you are resupplying for less than ten meals, solo and three-season backpacking: Alcohol Stove
If you are a couple and/or going long time between resupplies or need to do real cooking: Canister Stove other than Jet Boil
If you are solo and want a convenient all in one solution: Jetboil or MSR Reactor
If you are winter camping/high altitude mountaineering OR doing 3+ person meals: White Gas Stove
Doing lots of "real cooking" in a forest environment and not hiking far: Zip Stove
Want the absolute lightest stove and price/resupply (and don't mind slower boil times) is not an issue: Esbit
There are other stoves as well that can be best called "specialty" stoves. These stoves are less used, but can prove a viable option for some people. Zen Stoves has a great summary of these different types of stoves.
buckwheat
01-14-2009, 19:37
If you don't feel like reading my ramblings in its entirety (who would??? ? ;))
On the contrary Mags ... I've read practically everything you've ever written in the last 6 months. It's taken quite some time and I hope you'll keep it up on the net for others to soak in. A lot of experience there.
Cheers,
Buckwheat
Re: using an alcohol stove in high winds and on the JMT
My preferred alcohol stove is the Caldera Cone system. Nothing else I have beats it in high wind. I also carried it on the JMT.
If you scroll down the gallery, you'll see a couple of my photos of it:
http://www.traildesigns.com/gallery03.html
Welcome to Whiteblaze!
Before people can weigh in on what sort of stove will suit your needs, it would be good for you to describe in more detail what your needs are.
Cooking? Or just boiling water?
One person? Or four?
Three season? Or winter?
In general, for a solo hiker in normal weather conditions, an alcohol stove is lighter and has fewer working parts than white gas stoves.
Medical alcohol is not at all good for burning. The best stuff is ethanol (Everclear), but it's expensive because it's taxed as drinking liquor. Next best, and most widely used, is methanol. You can buy it in big cans at hardware stores, usually in the paint department. Somewhere on the can it usually mentions that it's marine fuel. Another way to get it is at gas stations and auto parts stores, as Heet, in the yellow bottles. The red bottles are some sort of petroleum product, and won't work.
Alcohol packs a lot fewer BTUs per ounce than gasoline. In general, long-distance hikers don't do all that much actual cooking, so an alcohol stove sytem works well enough, and is much lighter. If you either do a lot of cooking, are going to a very cold place (melting snow for water), or are cooking for several people, a gasoline stove is a better choice.
One option you didn't mention is a canister stove. They are definitely the least fiddly option. Have you looked at them?
It will be used for cooking, 3 seasons, and 1 person. I will be in Alaska this summer for 3 months. I have a canister stove it great and everything I would just like something without the canister.
Thanks!
While I would not use an alcohol stove for extensive winter hiking (use too much fuel to melt snow), altitude is NOT a problem. Seeing as I have boiled water at 13k ft in October on the divide (and quicker than the the white gas stove users due to the futz factor. :) ), I'm gonna say the statement of altitude is wrong. :)
As I always say THERE IS NO BEST OF ANY GEAR.
Here is my stove comparison article. I think it is an even-handed and realistic overview:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-Hiking-documents/stove_comparison.html
Thanks for that website !
I am choosing to carry my msr.
Should I go with the 11oz container or bump up to the 22oz? I am hiking solo but there are always those 5-7 days between reups.
eh?
I am choosing to carry my msr.
Should I go with the 11oz container or bump up to the 22oz? I am hiking solo but there are always those 5-7 days between reups.
eh?
The 22. The weight of the fuel bottle isn't that much more. You just need to decide how much fuel you will need for each section. You can buy a can in town and split it up with other hikers, or, some places, you can buy fuel by the oz. Early in your hike you'll use more fuel because of the cold. Later on you might want to switch to the 11oz. bottle. Last weekend, just on an overnighter, I used about 6 oz. just cooking dinner and breakfast and melting ice which had fallen from trees for water. Temperature was around 15 degrees for dinner and breakfast. I used an Evernew 1.3liter ti pot and a MSR windscreen cut down to the size of the pot.