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tucker0104
01-15-2009, 14:58
Does everyone keep their dogs on a leash at all times when hiking and camping?

snowhoe
01-15-2009, 15:07
AND it begins

mister krabs
01-15-2009, 15:29
Yes when hiking, sometimes in camp, always at night. I've seen too many lost dogs on the trail and my family would never forgive me if I lost one of ours.

ChinMusic
01-15-2009, 15:38
Rarely while hiking, usu at camp, never at night (sleeps in my tent). My dog never leaves me by more than 50 feet, and is usually at my feet. I can verbal him to me easily when encountering others. He has a training collar and "knows" to stay close. I will leash him at camp while others are eating, I have never broken his begging. Once supper is over he's not an issue. I will leash him at camp if he is wet/muddy too.

That said, I would NOT bring him on the AT for more than a weekend hike.....too much trouble.

Gaiter
01-15-2009, 15:43
thats a question for you and your dog: which will be effected by how well trained you and your dog are, where you are hiking, etc...

me and my dog: no on low traffic trails, yes when there are other people around, yes near roads, always in town, depends on the campsite/situation, always at night


and now for everyone who thinks dogs should never be on any trails in the first place:

Funkmeister
01-15-2009, 15:45
Nearly never. Didn't have to--listens perfectly, didn't beg, heeled for extended periods of time, sit/stays until released. Loved to hike, and when the dog backpack came out of the closet, there was the happy dog face until we left for the trailhead.

Sure do miss her.

ChinMusic
01-15-2009, 15:46
and now for everyone who thinks dogs should never be on any trails in the first place:
I am respectful of others, but I don't fret about those "who think dogs should never be on the trail".

Gaiter
01-15-2009, 15:52
i don't fret either, its just that whenever there is a question about dogs, the replies are 80% anti dog on trail

Slo-go'en
01-15-2009, 16:12
I once had a dog decide he would rather hike with me than his owner. I was moving much faster than the owner and after an hour or so I had enough of this dog and tied him to a tree! Yes, the story ends happly, the owner caught up and next time I saw them, the dog was on a leash. He even thanked me for doing what I did, as he had no idea if he'd ever see the dog again.

So please, if you take your dog hiking, make sure you can keep him by your side at all times!

Mags
01-15-2009, 16:33
From the ATC:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795337/k.9784/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/fido.pdf

My own quick and dirty take on dogs on the trail:

1) Leash laws aren't optional. If the signs say DOGS MUST BE ON LEASH the signs really do mean dogs must be on leash. :)
(According to the ATC leashes ARE REQUIRED on more than 40 percent of the Trail)

2) Ditto for NO DOGS ALLOWED

3) If dogs are allowed off leash, make sure your dog is in your control. If your dog growls, runs up and jumps on people, chases animals, etc..then it is not in your control. Keep the dog on leash. ;)

4) Consider tenting instead of using a shelter. No conflict that way. Sure, you can ask if anyone minds if you bring Fluffy in a shelter, but most people won't speak up even if asked directly (No one wants to be the bad guy..esp if you put them on the spot). Tenting means your wet dog won't get over everyone, beg for food and general be a nuisance. AND, not everyone likes dogs. Plus it gives you some privacy. Again, the main advantage is NO CONFLICT. Yay!

Yeah..just some etiquette. Bringing a dog on the trail is your decision. Thinking of the above helps make sure your decision does not effect other people's trail experience.

Cheers!

SteveJ
01-15-2009, 17:14
My position is that all dogs on the Appalachian Trail should be leashed. My dog is always leashed if not in my house or in my fenced backyard (Siberian Husky - bred to run, and will run at any time. I have unreliable voice control, and simply don't trust her not to take off after the next bird or squirrel she sees). Every time I've ever been on the AT my dog and I have, at least once, been approached by an off-leash, aggressive dog. Invariably, the dog is followed by an owner that says something like, "It's OK - he won't bite!"

If your dog is 100% under voice control, and you're on a less travelled trail than the AT, then sure, going off-lead is apropriate. The AT, in my personal opinion, because of the number of people on the trail, is a different matter.

Steve

Phreak
01-15-2009, 17:15
Does everyone keep their dogs on a leash at all times when hiking and camping?
Very rarely. Only on the more populated sections of trail.

WritinginCT
01-15-2009, 17:16
Yes. But don't think that means she's on a little 6ft lead. I have a great 20ft lead that is great for letting her frolic but still leashed.

I'm engineering some lighter weight options and will share once I've tested them.

Peanut is drawn to water like a moth to a flame leaving any sense of safety behind. One of the few times we had ever let her off lead was when she was about 8-9months old and it was winter. She zipped down an embankment and out onto the dangerously thin ice of the river where she broke through. She almost got pulled under the ice by the current and could have drowned if my husband hadn't acted quickly to sprawl on the ice and grab her scruff. Needless to say - unless it's at the fenced dog park - she doesn't go off lead.

Frosty
01-15-2009, 17:45
i don't fret either, its just that whenever there is a question about dogs, the replies are 80% anti dog on trailDogs are fine. They're just being dogs. It's the owners that are the problem. The owners know their dog won't bite, the other hikers don't. And some people are terrified of dogs.

If you can imagine how you'd feel if someone was waving a gun in your direction, saying, don't worry, it ain't loaded, you'd understand how some feel feel when faced with strange pooches.

Being respectful isn't letting your dog loose because you know he is under voice control. That is not respectful of anyone at all. It is basically ignoring their wants, desires and fears. Being respectful if ensuring THEIR feelings and needs are met, not yours.

I like dogs, I hiked with mine many times and she loved it. I did not keep her on a leash at all times, but I'll not pretend that was being responsible, courteous and respectful, because it isn't.

Another reason it is so heated is that it only takes one dog walking on your sleeping bag with muddy feet to make most people not like dogs in camp.

Look at your post, claiming that 80% of responses are anti-dog. Just not true, but you had some bad experiences with anti-dog people and now you assume that everyone is that way.

The shoe is on the other foot and people who have had bad experiences will act the same way you did.

Not much tolerance anywhere, when you start dividing people into US and THEM.

I love dogs. I like guns. I like ATVs. I like loud music. Whether they belong on the trail depends on which finger is used to point to "THEM" folks.

Kanati
01-15-2009, 18:05
While on the A.T. last year I was bitten on the foot by a hikers small dog on a leash. It didn't hurt but I spoke to its master about it anyway. He just said...."yeah, he's got a thing about boots".

A second time, last year also, a day hiker had a midsize, strong built mixed breed dog on a 'too long' leash and he was acting very agressive toward me. I had to stick my hand down his throat to convince him to not bite me. After that he settled down. The dogs name was Voodoo. The girl holding the leash acted indifferent about it, but a nasty bite could have taken me off the trail.

Point is, if you are in absolute control of your dog then it's ok to have him/her on the trail where there are other hikers. If not, you need to leave it at home. Remember that not everyone is as fond of our dogs as we are, and we should be respectful of that. My dog Max, ( a black lab), only hikes with me on our trails thru the woods near home where there are no other people. He is a perfect gentleman but has a bad habit of staring at anyone eating. It doesn't bother me but some people gets upset by it, my wife included.

Happy hiking. :sun

clicker
01-15-2009, 18:14
Almost always leashed unless she is in my tent with me. I have unleashed her when hiking only occasionally. She stays right by my side or right in front/behind me close enough that I am only an inch or two away from hitting her with my boots as I walk. Off leash she does the same thing, so the leash does not interfere and in case of need(stray dog or stranger showing up) I can reel her in pretty quick. Her leash gets looped to my hip belt, keeps my hands free for my hiking staff and anything else.

ChinMusic
01-15-2009, 18:22
Being respectful isn't letting your dog loose because you know he is under voice control. That is not respectful of anyone at all. It is basically ignoring their wants, desires and fears. Being respectful if ensuring THEIR feelings and needs are met, not yours.

Some folks are afraid of creepy dudes with beards. Should Lone Wolf stay home? :D

I'm not buying.

CrumbSnatcher
01-15-2009, 18:26
does Everyone Keep Their Dogs On A Leash At All Times When Hiking And Camping? Roads Can Pop Up Out Of Nowhere, Always Keep The Dog Close By. I LEASHED MY DOG WHEN WE GOT NEAR ROADS. alot of times you'll hear the traffic on the roads plenty time before you reach the road,but not always!!!

buckwheat
01-15-2009, 19:13
I don't hike the AT, but I can say that in the area that I hike, the dog owners:

1) Never (ever) have their dogs on a leash when I run across them
2) Are completely unable to control their dogs
3) Uniformly underestimate both their dogs' obedience and their own authority.

I've had 3 dogs rush me barking furiously, because I hike with a pack and poles, and they're not familiar with that. I'm sure I look like a bear to them ... but I don't blame the dogs, I blame their owners.

I had one owner hiking down the trail with 2 dogs, totally unable to control them, talking to someone on his cell phone as his dogs rushed me. I had to fend them off with my hiking poles they were so aggressive and had no idea if I was about to be bitten. About 30 minutes later, heading back to my car, ran into the same guy, still on his phone, still unable to control his dogs. Still unleashed.

If your dog rushes me angrily barking, I will hurt it if it gets close enough, especially if it is a larger breed. As an owner, you've left me with no choice at that point.

So, leash your dog, please.

Kanati
01-15-2009, 19:33
Buckwheat, that was very well put.

CrumbSnatcher
01-15-2009, 19:39
I don't hike the AT, but I can say that in the area that I hike, the dog owners:

1) Never (ever) have their dogs on a leash when I run across them
2) Are completely unable to control their dogs
3) Uniformly underestimate both their dogs' obedience and their own authority.

I've had 3 dogs rush me barking furiously, because I hike with a pack and poles, and they're not familiar with that. I'm sure I look like a bear to them ... but I don't blame the dogs, I blame their owners.

I had one owner hiking down the trail with 2 dogs, totally unable to control them, talking to someone on his cell phone as his dogs rushed me. I had to fend them off with my hiking poles they were so aggressive and had no idea if I was about to be bitten. About 30 minutes later, heading back to my car, ran into the same guy, still on his phone, still unable to control his dogs. Still unleashed.

If your dog rushes me angrily barking, I will hurt it if it gets close enough, especially if it is a larger breed. As an owner, you've left me with no choice at that point.

So, leash your dog, please.
sorry that happened to you. i can't believe he had a cell phone:D just joking. glad your ok

sir White Wolf
01-15-2009, 20:03
I like hiking with my dog (always on leash)
He is well trained and loved, But I have no delusion that he might not like the feel / look of some one else on a trail. (heck I sometimes dont)
I feel the same as Buckwheat.
I have been bitten to many times by dogs who wouldnt hurt a fly.
(hmmm it couldnt be me could it?)

Serial 07
01-15-2009, 20:05
no, but they should be leashed...don't be that guy (or girl) who thinks their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread and would never do anything to anyone and then BAM!...your dog is doing a number of things an animal does that can disturb another person...i hiked with a guy who was allergic to dogs and there were way, way to many times when he had to struggle with "being a nice guy" and putting up with crap that he shouldn't have...

bottom line, leash your dog...morning, day, night, early evening, in towns, by SPRINGS!!! dogs that run to water like a moth towards a flame are the worst...

buckwheat
01-15-2009, 20:22
sorry that happened to you. i can't believe he had a cell phone:D just joking. glad your ok

It has been the most surprising thing to me as I've taken up hiking ... how aggressive dogs can be when you look different and are approaching their owner unexpectedly. (Keep in mind, I am a total dog lover and animal lover in general).

Where I live, it's mostly city dogs ... their owners take them out into the woods to let them experience what life was like for their wolvian forebears it seems, so they're rarely leashed.

It is the reason that I have to hike with poles and the reason I hike with poles that have very sharp tips on them.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the dog owner today must also be cognizant of the fact that if their dog does bite, you will be sued and you will lose. The pit bull owners have seen to that. Count on it.

So, unless you want both a hurt animal and a scummy lawyer digging through your garbage looking for information about your assets and personal life, it's probably best to keep the dog leashed on the trail.

This is probably the best retractable leash I've seen:

http://pet.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPETS-3758041t400.jpg

$30.00 at Petsmart. (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2751445&utm_source=cse&utm_campaign=2751445&utm_medium=googleproduct&mr:trackingCode=6B2AE53D-15E3-DD11-80C2-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA)

Wise Old Owl
01-16-2009, 10:00
AND it begins


AND it Continues.....

I will share this, I am a good observer of peoples faces and when I had a 30 pound "puppy ish" dog, she could do no wrong. She was a polite well behaved and would walk up to introduce herself in a nice manner. Even the most skittish "I am so not into pets person" would crumble, reguardless of a leash or not. I always wanted a "GUY's" dog and got Rugby from the pound. He's a bundled with incredible energy about 65 pounds of vertical bounding energy, no manners at all, and a real coward! Yep the type that runs up to you circles three times and wants to know why you don't have a dog. I see fear in almost everyone's face. I broke him of the habit, and leash most of the time or he wears a hunting sound and shock collar. Rugby has grown up over the year and still has the energy - but the rest is a lost cause as now its the next person coming down the trail.

So use a leash, not for the dog, but for the other hikers.


Oh and Buckweat - Scummy Lawyers don't dig though your trash, When they want to know your assets, They use the internet!

Wise Old Owl
01-16-2009, 10:28
I like hiking with my dog (always on leash)
He is well trained and loved, But I have no delusion that he might not like the feel / look of some one else on a trail. (heck I sometimes dont)
I feel the same as Buckwheat.
I have been bitten to many times by dogs who wouldnt hurt a fly.
(hmmm it couldnt be me could it?)

Maybe you are tasty!:D

Nearly Normal
01-16-2009, 22:06
Under control at all times. If that takes a leash, do it......or leave the dog at home.

sir White Wolf
01-17-2009, 12:51
Maybe you are tasty!:D

I'm starting to think so :-?


I am all about having a great time hiking and enjoying the outdoors.
if you want your pet with you that's great but you will save a lot of grief keeping it on a leash.

Desert Reprobate
01-17-2009, 13:09
I like a pocket full of Snausages. Trail Magic for pups

Wise Old Owl
01-17-2009, 13:11
SWW I have been bitten as a paper boy by a retired police dog and a few other small incidents, the snake bites were worse. How did you fair?

sir White Wolf
01-18-2009, 02:47
After the first time I learned Not to jerk arms or legs outta the mouth , It just makes it worse :eek:
The worst was a chow 6 stitches near the poo shoot. (I almost out run em)

D'Artagnan
01-19-2009, 17:11
I love dogs. Especially the ones I meet who are with their caregivers and on a leash. It normally makes for a less anxious encounter.

Smile
01-19-2009, 18:07
I have to agree with D'Artagnan on this one
:)

TofuKat
01-20-2009, 15:02
Every time I've hiked with dogs I've kept them leashed just because you never know what could come up. It's not always my dogs I don't trust, but other people. I wouldn't ever want someone to get bit, but if a toddler pats my dog too hard in the face, you never know if he'll bite a finger. I'm just picky that way...but I've also hiked with Jack Russell Terriers and they're just plain crazy. Ready to run off after a squirrel or dart in the road. Safer for all involved if they're leashed.

I also give way to other hikers when I'm with my dogs. I reel them in and give other people space to pass without worrying that I don't have control over the animal.

cowboy nichols
01-20-2009, 16:09
I've hiked for many many years, always with a dog, ALWAYS on leash. Never had a bad experience and never had a complaint that I know of. Always tent and stay away from groups. Happy hiking with your friend.

Rockhound
01-20-2009, 21:52
I tend to like dogs more than people. That being said, I think there are more hikers that should be kept on leashes than dogs.

Wise Old Owl
01-20-2009, 22:01
I tend to like dogs more than people. That being said, I think there are more hikers that should be kept on leashes than dogs.

Save that for the general gear forum.....:cool:

Desert Reprobate
01-20-2009, 23:45
I tend to like dogs more than people. That being said, I think there are more hikers that should be kept on leashes than dogs.
What he said

pizzaguy
02-21-2009, 22:18
I hike with my dog a LOT (a 15 pound jack russel mix) and she's always on a leash - if she wasn't and she saw a squirrel, I'd never see her again! :D

I hike a lot in FDR near Columbus, GA and people rarely leash their dogs unless they think a Ranger might be around. Never been bitten. But I am tired of seeing the "Lost Dog, Please Help" signs.

Idiots - leash your dog! It's for your dog's good as much as yours!

OutdoorsMan
02-22-2009, 00:04
I love seeing dogs on the trail.

Feral Bill
02-22-2009, 02:24
I have met numerous well behaved dogs off leash here in the west. My fool hound stays leashed at all times, except on my own property.

rickb
02-22-2009, 09:18
Yes. But don't think that means she's on a little 6ft lead.

On NPS land, the leash can't be more than 6 feet, I think.

That's the rule, anyway.

http://www.nps.gov/pub_aff/e-mail/pets.htm

Highpointbound
02-25-2009, 18:43
To me, once your dog steps off your property, he should be leashed. I dont care how big, how small, what breed, etc. Not everyone likes dogs, and will have a fit even if a chihuahua comes up to them. folks have the right to enjoy themselves on an outing without your dog bouncing up to them either wanting to eat them, or greet them. Some folks just dont want to be bothered.

Plus its ANNOYING when i'm walking my dog LEASHED and someone ELSE'S dog comes running up to us because he sees my dog. The owners can NEVER control their dog. Now, i have to worry about a fight breaking out.
I have had to pick up one of my dogs in my arms when he was younger because some dog wanted to eat him. Now he is bigger, and is of a breed that people are scared of.:rolleyes: So guess what? If a dog runs up to us now, and my dog gets the best of him, guess who is gonna get all the crap? Me. Just because i have a "scary" breed. Seen it happen.

Keep your dogs on a leash. Because i have no problem hurting it either if need be. It wont have to worry about my dog..it needs to worry about ME.

pizzaguy
02-25-2009, 23:08
Totally agree, Highpoint. TOTALLY![/*] :cool:

The Weasel
02-25-2009, 23:33
The best reason to leash is so your dog doesn't chase a squirrel/rabbit/raccoon off down a cove/canyon and not return because it's lost. Don't tell me your dog wouldn't do that. You only need to be wrong once to basically have killed your dog by not leashing it. Leashes are 100%.

Chase The Incredible Rocket Dog never hikes with me without a leash. We both like it. (It's a head leash, by the way, so he doesn't get jerked at the neck by accident.)

TW

booger
02-26-2009, 23:49
I'm am curious. I am planning a thru hike next year, and have been looking at a lot of photo galleries on different sections of the AT. If hiking with a dog, how do you get them up some more difficult climbs, some that look almost straight up?

beakerman
02-27-2009, 04:21
I've got three large dogs: a shepherd and two pyrs. when i hit the trails down here in TX they are leashed except when in the tent with me. They only get in the tent when I car camp because even with minions to help carry the load there aint no way I can lug a tent big enough for the family and three meatheads. Even if I only take one that pup is going to be on a leash. I know with absolute certainty that unless you actually touch me or one of my family these dogs won't even raise an eyebrow to you but I still keep them leashed because I know how intimidating a strange dog can be. It's not fair to other hikers...if I want them to not mess my hike up then it's only fair for me not to give them PTSD right?

Turtlehiker
02-27-2009, 11:31
I also leash my Black Lab when hiking and have had to lift her big ass up many ledges in the Catskills. I use treking poles so I don't hold the leash, I either clip it to a carabiner on my hip belt or just tuck it into my hipbelt. She won't pull it out.
On one trip we stopped for a break and I took her pack off(she carries her own food/water and gear) which meant that the leash clipped to her pack was not clipped to her. She realized this and must have though I AM FREE and took off like a shot down the trail and out of sight. I though ***? Couple minutes later she comes tearing a$$ back with a stupid grin and sits down next to me. I guess she just needed to run.

The Weasel
02-27-2009, 12:10
Turtle, you're very lucky, and I'm very happy for you that your friend came back. I have a screed (I won't redo it here, you can imagine it, perhaps) about losing your dog on the trail by unleashing it. What would you have done if she hadn't returned? This happens more than people realize, and it rarely comes out good for the dog (or the owner).

TW

wrongway_08
02-27-2009, 15:55
I keep my off leash untill someones around, going into towns or heading to a shelter.

emerald
02-27-2009, 16:11
I keep my [dog] off leash untill someones around, going into towns or heading to a shelter.

That doesn't keep your dog from running off and violates laws in some locations created to protect wildlife.

If what rickb posted earlier is correct and I haven't made the effort to verify it, a 6-foot lead employed at all times out of self respect, respect for your canine companion and others should be a standard of behavior adopted trailwide voluntarily.

wrongway_08
02-27-2009, 16:17
Erwin wont run off, doesnt cahse anything and stays by my side.

Hudson on the other hand is always on the leash, he will chase stuff.

I think the 6 foot rule is correct.

emerald
02-27-2009, 16:23
I would think Erwin a rare dog indeed, but I will take you at your word. Still, you may be setting a bad example for other dog owners whose dogs are not as well behaved or think them incapable of doing what dogs are more likely than not to do.

wrongway_08
02-27-2009, 16:47
Ask anyone who has hiked with Erwin, he is well behaved, Not all dogs are as good as him, like my other dog Hudson - thats why Hudson stays on a leash.

I dont have that "my dog is perfect" attitude, that is what causes problems.

Each dog is different, dog owners have to be responsible and just because Erwin might be seen off leash is no reason for another dog owner to think his dog can be off leash also.... each dog owner has to know his dogs "trust worthyness" as far as leashes go.

Bad thing is, its the dog that gets kicked when he does wrong off leash.......... it should be the owner getting a broke jaw for not knowing/protecting and training his dog properly.

boarstone
02-27-2009, 17:04
Had a boyfriend once that insisted he pick his own out..........

wrongway_08
02-27-2009, 20:12
Had a boyfriend once that insisted he pick his own out..........

Haha, now thats funny!

The Weasel
02-28-2009, 00:20
Ask anyone who has hiked with Erwin, he is well behaved, Not all dogs are as good as him, like my other dog Hudson - thats why Hudson stays on a leash.

I dont have that "my dog is perfect" attitude, that is what causes problems.

Each dog is different, dog owners have to be responsible and just because Erwin might be seen off leash is no reason for another dog owner to think his dog can be off leash also.... each dog owner has to know his dogs "trust worthyness" as far as leashes go.

Bad thing is, its the dog that gets kicked when he does wrong off leash.......... it should be the owner getting a broke jaw for not knowing/protecting and training his dog properly.

Good luck. I've known three dog owners who said, "He never did that before." Only one of them got their dog back. I hope you don't let your little guy down someday when something draws his attention. Best wishes.

TW

WritinginCT
02-28-2009, 18:18
As far as the 6ft rule goes- On my 15ft lead I have a loop knotted just above where it clips onto her harness and another hand loop at the 6ft mark. I've never had any rangers/dog wardens/police officers (and I've encountered many in my day hiking) cite me or even comment on the lead at all. YMMV

mtnkngxt
03-01-2009, 09:16
I keep my lab leashed in the deep woods merely because I hate dealing with holier than thou people. If people weren't so dramatic about things, I wouldn't keep him leashed while away from shelters or road crossings. Of course you need to keep your dog leashed when around camps, shelters, in town...I had a guy at a shelter in VA lecture me on how I was damaging the experience of hiking the AT by bringing my mangey mutt. Granted my camp was setup 100 yards down trail, and I just came up to cook dinner and use the shelter picnic table. My lab was leashed and well away from him and others at the shelter sound asleep. This guy then proceeded to pull out a generous sum of marijuana field strip a grape cigar and then roll a very large blunt. So the guy that just complained about my dog sleeping by my pack next to a tree on a leash atleast 50 feet from him, has a right to tell me whats right and wrong in the woods while he commits an actual crime?

My lab takes a daily walk with the mail man around the neighborhood. Somehow when the mailman used to show up he would jump our fence. He would then walk with Tony around the neighborhood delivering mail. Lately he's gotten to fat to jump the fence, so Tony just lets him out. Stays on the sidewalk never goes up to houses just waits at the sidewalks for him. When he's done with the route he puts him back in the fence and he stays fine until the next day.

Wise Old Owl
03-01-2009, 17:56
mntkngxt, - I suspect you listened to the guy and said nothing, I can't type what I would have replied, and I have been on the short end of another hiker's outspoken views of dogs, on the AT (I said nothing then because it didn't deserve a reply) Today I am far more outspoken and don't care about others drama, even if it costs me a freind or two, the dog stays.

And I am burned out with keeping a dog on a leash at all times posts, If I see horses approch or another hiker I call him back and clip him on, until they pass. The lab has been getting much better and I still use the wireless pet leash. So things are improving. What boggles my mind is the fear I sometimes see in approching hikers, and it isn't the dog! Got to make a bigger t-shirt "Harmless Hiker!"

cowboy nichols
03-01-2009, 18:18
There have been more people killed on or near the A T by other people than by dogs. I' m far more alert of other humans.

LBJ
03-01-2009, 19:02
Mark Twain said: "Most people live too long and most dogs don't live long enough."

Cowgirl
03-01-2009, 20:45
I don't like when a loose dog comes running up to me & my dog. Usually the owner is hollering "Bobo....come back" and the dog continues to head strait for me and my leashed dog. (my dog is not dog friendly)

I've gotten to the point that I have a few stratigies to keep these loose dogs away from mine:

I carry a walking stick to hold the loose dog away from me & my dog.

I have taught my dog to "get behind" so that I am between him & the other dog.

I carry "bear spray" so that if a fight breaks out, can break it up before much furr & blood flies.

I muzzle my dog in heavily populated doggie areas.


Growing up in the town of Key West with plenty of dogs and no leash law. My dog was never on a leash but a few times in his whole life, even when I peddled my bike from Key West to Alaska and he rode along in a bicycle trailer (he got out and ran up hills)

Now I have a dog aggressive dog and have to keep him under control at all times. My problem is with other peoples loose dogs that they can't control.

I was in Jackson Hole WY all spring, summer & fall. That town has no leash law that is enforced & the Forest Service has no leash law after 1/4 mile from the trailhead and all dogs are loose at the trailhead because they have zero enforcement of that rule anyway. Everyone has 2-3 dogs with them and the trails are full of dogs.

At first I was mad at people and demanded that they keep their dogs away from mine. Then it slowly dawned on me that with an attitude adjustment, I could "protect" their dog from mine. My dog is the problem after all!

Now when a loose dog runs up the trail at me I go into my stratigies until the owner shows up and drags their dog away apologising profusly and saying "gosh, he's never done that before" :D

Now I have a happier,cheerier attitudes because I have learned prevention with a positive outlook. My time on the trail has gotten stress free because now I am prepared and not looking to blame anyone and take responsibility for things I can control and not trying to control and get mad over things that will not change.

mtnkngxt
03-02-2009, 08:53
So you knowingly hike with a dog aggressive dog? Ok let me wrap my head around this, your dogs lack of socialization and an apparent attitude problem means that my dog should have to remain on leash because your dog may or may not play nicely if encoutering other dogs. What happens if your dog somehow gets off leash? If your dog run up on me and my dog should I be able to immediately bear spray your dog for fear of the unknown? I'd say if you have to muzzle your dog, then he or she probably shouldn't be on close proximaty trails where your passing literally within feet of each other. If I tell my lab to sit he sits, when told to stay he stays, same with heel, down, and no. I have had dogs run up to us on the trail unleashed. Most times they're rocking ruffwear packs and dog booties. I've seen pitbulls, golden retrievers, and my personal favorite was people who saw my greatdane and I hiking. Your occasionally going to run across a deer hound or a stray that may cause a problem, but most of the time its just a dog out with its owner. Over dramaticizing dogs off leash is what leads to fear.

Rouen
03-02-2009, 12:39
honestly all the dogs I've ever encountered off leash were well mannered, even though they were excited. nothing but tail wags and running in circles. one yellow lab did lift his lip but he was unsure, not agression.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/rouenduck/Picture126-2.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/rouenduck/Picture131-2.jpg

SteveJ
03-02-2009, 13:04
I hike with a dog on-leash, and have had an encounter with an off-lead dog(s) on every AT trip I've taken my dog on. It invariably plays out like this: we're hiking down the trail with my dog attached to my son. The dog usually leads, then my son, then me. One way or another, I become aware of an off-lead dog (if it's coming from behind us, usually when it bounds by me to get to Phoebe). I yell at Scott to be careful, he does his best to bring Phoebe in, and I try to get there before the dog does. Who knows at this point whether the dog is friendly or not? All I know is that my 13 yr old son is in the middle of two dogs....

Fortunately, most encounters are friendly. It's those that aren't that cause the heart to pound every time this happens. PLEASE leash your dog if it isn't 100% of the time in voice command and 100% of the time within your view.

High Life
03-02-2009, 18:02
i dont mind seeing dogs on the trail , but sometimes i was annoyed by a dog that i didn't want to deal with , jumping on me . When I was in the 100 mile wilderness at the Carl A Newhall lean-to in 2007 there was a man that said his dog didn't bite and then it bit me in the calf making a fairly decent puncture wound . I was pissed to say the least ..

Wise Old Owl
03-02-2009, 18:34
CowGirl Mtnkgxt, I had to read both your posts 2x to figure out where this was going,

Cowgirl - Petsafe makes a "invisible leash" by radio. I mentioned it in my post and previous threads here in this forum. Rugby is on a 500 foot radio leash when hiking with me to stop running up to people, horses,etc. I am training him for trails in general.

Workin with dogs doesn't require a "whisperer" But a firm owner.

Mtnkgxt - If we were sitting around a campfire and just talking we would all be having a good time, because we are reading here on a thread, we have a human nature to rip what is typed apart. I appreciate what you said, but lighten up a little please.

Jack Tarlin
03-02-2009, 18:41
Will try and keep this short.

There's no excuse, ever, for hiking with an "agressive" dog, whether it's kept on a leash or not.

I've been charged and snapped at plenty of times by dogs that were on leashes, and it's not a lot of fun. The fact that it was ostensibly restrained and on a rope or that the owner was right there and "on top of things" didn't make me feel any better, nor did I feel any better disposed towards the jerk owner.

If your dog hasn't been well-trained enough to be around people (or other animals) without making an unpleasant scene or threatening them, then it belongs at home until it is.

Repeat that last sentence as often as necessary.

The Trail is a social place......lots of people, lots of other animals. If your dog can't deal with this, and if you're too lazy or more likely too cheap to have adequately trained your pet, then he doesn't belong on the Trail.

Sorry, but I calls 'em as I see 'em.

sasquatch2014
03-02-2009, 19:26
Jack there is one thing in your post that I will disagree with and that is the dog training taking money.

"and if you're too lazy or more likely too cheap to have adequately trained your pet, then he doesn't belong on the Trail."

I think you hit it the first time with the too lazy. There is so much out there on how to train your dog and at least three TV show that seem to run almost 24/7 about dogs that all it takes is the desire to have a well trained dog to get the job done. Take the time and do it. Everyone the dog you and everyone around you will all come out the better for it.

I had the privilege of hiking with Wrongway and Erwin last week and it was a joy to have them there. Hank my pup, all of 8 mo old at this point, learned a lot on the trip. I had put a lot of time in teaching him some trail manner before we went out. First day out he was off leash and was up with the front of our hiking group. He would get put on leash at roads. The second day someone pointed out how he was trying to be the dominate one by being up front and not with me. From that time through lunch he was on leash being trained as to where i expected him to be which was behind me and I made it a point that we were not n the front of the group. After lunch on the second day he was off leash and staying with a few reminders where he should be right at my heels. By the third day he was behind me and less reminders as to where he needed to be. I think that all of the folks who hiked with me on that trip would agree that for 8 mo old and this being his first group hiking trip he did great.

It takes an owner who is willing to listen to what others say and also willing to put the time in. This is not hard to do unless you let your ego get in the way. Hank is not perfect he still has a lot to learn and he will learn it. If not he doesn't get to go it is just that simple.

As far as leash law or 6 ft lead etc well the laws are there. I was not consulted when they were made but I do have the choice to follow them or not. If I choose not to then I also have to be willing to pay the consequences for that decision just like I do when I speed. I follow the laws when it is in my best interest to do so for safety. If I run into someone who doesn't like this will there are at least 2100 other miles of the trail that they can be on where they will not have to deal with me.

LBJ
03-02-2009, 19:29
Is there anything that polarizes people more than a dog thread?

sasquatch2014
03-02-2009, 19:30
The gun thread. I am looking into getting a conceal carry permit for my dog.

LBJ
03-02-2009, 19:34
High Life, the experts say that it's better to be bitten by a dog than by a human!

Jack Tarlin
03-02-2009, 19:35
I should add something to the above post.

Lots of folks think I'm really anti-dog, and I'm not.

Once upon a time, like around the end of the 16th century, I had actually hoped to be a veterinarian.

Didn't work out.

In any case, I love animals, and have no problem with dogs.

That being said, most of them on the A.T. are a real pain in the ass to other people, for two main reasons, which are lack of training, and inattentiveness on the part of the owners as to what their dogs are up to.

And this is REALLY easy to let happen. I've taken friends' dogs out on the Trail many times, and in truth, in so doing, I was a lousy and inattentive dog owner. I let the dog run free too often, and get too far away. I didn't keep it tied up in camp and didn't realize how often the dog was interacting with other people. I figured that since the dog was a well-known and popular one on the Trail (it belonged to a really popular hostel owner), then everything was peachy.

And I was wrong.

The big problem with dogs on the Trail isn't from malice or bad intent. It's that dog owners are simply oblivious to how their pet interacts with other folks and other animals, and they are totally blind to the times when this impact is potentially negative.

So owners, here's a word to the wise: Train your pet, one way or another. Spend time on the trail hiking with it long before you start a thru-hike. And don't assume everyone is as crazy about Fido as you are, cuz they're not.

Oh, and keep it tied up in camp. Everyone thinks their dog is this perfect, voice-commanded angel.

No. When other people are around, and so is a lot of interesting food, your dog is anything but an angel. Keep him tied, and keep him in a tent.

I expect the next time I'm out there with a dog I'll do better, cuz it's REALLY easy to do the wrong thing without ever realizing it.

And I appreciate the guy who pointed this out to me.

Many Walks
03-02-2009, 20:30
We have a sweetheart rescue dog, Jessie, that we take on approved trails, but always on a 6 ft leash. She is very well behaved, doesn't bark or jump on people. She's trained to heel and sit when we stop along the path to let hikers pass. We probably wouldn't need the leash, but it's just easier for everyone, including Jessie because we're consistent. When we camp she is leashed until she goes in our tent, except for the most remote areas where no one is around.

We've seen dogs running on the trail and doing all sorts of obnoxious stuff like being aggressive to hikers and other dogs, walking all over people's gear, and splashing through water sources. I can't blame the dogs for doing what they do, it is the owners fault for not keeping them in check.

I'd say, if the dog is well behaved and the owner keeps it under control with respect for other hikers and campers, then they are welcome. If the dog and/or owner is aggressive to others and disrespectful of their gear and space, they should stay off the high use trails.

Final thought to dog owners contemplating a thru with their dog. There are places I wouldn't take most dogs simply because the terrain is just too nasty or the weather is too hot for them to hike all day. Please consider their safety before taking them into danger.

CrumbSnatcher
03-02-2009, 20:54
didn't spend a single dime training my dog! would love to hear from anyone who has ever had a problem with bear(dog). jack you know you loved my dog:)

Ekul
03-02-2009, 21:05
One show will fix your problems. "dog whisperer" common sense. err time will fix your problems let me say. If you have a problem dog, the only way to fix the problem is put you and your mut in that situation as much as possible with corrections from you only in a calm strong manner. If you are excitable and anxious so is your dog.

The Weasel
03-02-2009, 21:48
Is there anything that polarizes people more than a dog thread?


The gun thread. I am looking into getting a conceal carry permit for my dog.

Dogs with guns are usually naked. Totally naked. That's a good thing. For dogs. With guns. Naked dogs with guns. If you don't like that go back to Omaha. Or somewhere.

TW

Cowgirl
03-03-2009, 01:36
oh, so my leashed dog is not allowed on the trail with dogs that are loose, out of control & don't come back when called?

Cowgirl
03-03-2009, 01:49
I had 2 unlashed dogs on a trail in Maryland attack my very social, friendly & leashed dog and maul him and rip his guts open front of me.

If those dogs were leashed, there never would have been a problem.

But I don't want to see all dogs leashed. That's why I spoke of prevention on my end.


But no matter how good your dog is, there are 10 out there that are ill behaved and poorly managed and btw.................they are dogs and they will do what dogs do.

:)

Nearly Normal
03-03-2009, 06:43
The trail was designed for people.

Two Speed
03-03-2009, 07:24
Just a quick reminder: according to the sticky (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259) at the top of this forum this is not a debate forum. Please try to keep your posts somewhat focused on the OP's theme.

Thanks

Gray Blazer
03-03-2009, 09:10
I keep my FEMALE dog on a PINK leash. I get irritated when people come up and want to know HIS name. Don't they see the PINK leash?

wrongway_08
03-03-2009, 09:47
I keep my FEMALE dog on a PINK leash. I get irritated when people come up and want to know HIS name. Don't they see the PINK leash?

maybe they assume hes a gay doggy?

warraghiyagey
03-03-2009, 09:50
Just a quick reminder: according to the sticky (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259) at the top of this forum this is not a debate forum. Please try to keep your posts somewhat focused on the OP's theme.

Thanks


maybe they assume hes a gay doggy?
Somebody's spoilin for a time out.. . .

Gray Blazer
03-03-2009, 09:54
maybe they assume hes a gay doggy?
I didn't want to bring that up. I guess it's the gray blazer moniker.

Two Speed
03-03-2009, 09:55
Somebody's spoilin for a time out.. . .Eh, maybe. As long as the humor doesn't get nasty I'm good.

wrongway_08
03-03-2009, 09:56
Sorry, assumed since it had to do with the color of the leash, the post would be alright. :).


I still say it just depends on the dog, one of mine is allowed off leash and the other one is stuck on a leash while on the trail.

Two Speed
03-03-2009, 09:57
No worries.

superman
03-03-2009, 09:58
I keep my FEMALE dog on a PINK leash. I get irritated when people come up and want to know HIS name. Don't they see the PINK leash?

People simply assume dogs are male for no reason that I know of. Winter is a 70lb female white German Shepherd. Many folks have asked what "his" name is but I don't think anyone has asked what her name is. She wears a red collar and red leash.

WritinginCT
03-03-2009, 11:30
My big brindle boxer is almost 90lbs - even with a flowered collar people still think she's a he.

Apparently that and the obvious lack of a penis isn't a big enough clue bus to hit most folks.

Kathfishes
03-03-2009, 12:17
LOL.. I'm not in the habit of looking under the dog to see.. I have 3 F YLW Labs.. Heck except for one, you can't tell by their names either..Java, Snow, and Baby

Wise Old Owl
03-03-2009, 22:58
real men can't see pink..... they are color blind.:-?

Ekul
03-04-2009, 00:08
possibly the best lead for calm at your side dogs. my boxer is only comfortable at my side and I love this lead
http://www.ruffwear.com/Quick-Draw-Leash_2;jsessionid=0a010c471f43ff3dd55e08f14f6e937 f8327c33ec307.e3eSch4MaN4Re34Pa38Ta38Nb3f0

AZJ_Jerky
03-06-2009, 10:50
I like the "Flat Out" from Ruff Wear. Easy to clip on and off of hipbelt, trees, fences, etc...

Highpointbound
03-11-2009, 19:08
I think we can all share the woods. Dogs and all. Just be responsible about it. And ANY dog has the ability to be dog aggressive, ESPESCIALLY if a loose dog comes running up in their face. A fight can happen even among two poodles. Folks won't have to worry so much about who may have a dog aggressive dog if ALL dogs are kept on leash and under control. You want to let your dog run free; let him run free in your enclosed yard. But, if you are going some place where you have to share the space with other people/animals, keep the dog LEASHED.

Tin Man
07-19-2009, 22:13
On my white mtns hike last week, I saw plenty of dogs. Only one was leashed. I thanked the owner.

Wise Old Owl
07-19-2009, 22:36
Once again a few have to beat the drum of leashes on the trail to posting death. Please read the sticky if you are illiterate or you have a fear of cute cuddly dogs. Please stop posting, in future all non dog owners will have to pass a Rorschach test before posting before embarrassing themselves.:rolleyes:

Tin Man
07-19-2009, 22:43
Dude, get a grip. The title of the thread is 'leashes on trail'.

CrumbSnatcher
07-19-2009, 22:56
they allow dogs on the trail?

saimyoji
07-19-2009, 23:11
Once again a few have to beat the drum of leashes on the trail to posting death. Please read the sticky if you are illiterate or you have a fear of cute cuddly dogs. Please stop posting, in future all non dog owners will have to pass a Rorschach test before posting before embarrassing themselves.:rolleyes:

you should go back and read the sticky, before you embarass yourself....oops, too late....:rolleyes:

High Life
07-20-2009, 00:21
i was bit by some jerks dog during my thru hike while in the 100 mile wilderness .. i wasnt doing anything to the dog and had my back turned to it ..
the guy didnt even say sorry ..had a nice puncture would in my calf

Gaiter
07-20-2009, 01:12
I keep my FEMALE dog on a PINK leash. I get irritated when people come up and want to know HIS name. Don't they see the PINK leash?

thats because people tend to call a animals sex baised on what their animal's sex is, i've got a girl dog and cat, i tend to refer dogs and cats as shes, i try to just say 'it' (hopefully the animal is an 'it' anyways)

Lemni Skate
07-20-2009, 01:25
My 73 year old father had some guy's pit bull attack him on a hiking trail near Petersburg last year. My Dad was walking as part of his rehabilitation after triple bypass surgery.

I do 90% of my hiking in Shenandoah where dogs are required to be on a leash at all times or even banned on some trails. The percent of dogs that are actually on a leash is under 50%.

My nine-year old son was bitten by some guys dog only two months ago (we were hiking near Old Rag) and it was on a leash. Luckily it didn't draw blood.

In April a dog came running up to my son who eating some Ramen Noodles at a shelter(in Georgia) and knocked the scalding noodles all over my son and himself. The dog yelped and his owner (master definitely wouldn't describe the relationship) came up to the shelter about three minutes later all angry like somebody had done something to his dog. Never apologized, but he tied the dog up and we got to listen to the Beagle howl and bark half the night.

I've got more about dogs, but I thought I stick to the worst three of the past year.

There may be reasons some people don't like dogs on the trail.

Rouen
07-20-2009, 01:49
My nine-year old son was bitten by some guys dog only two months ago (we were hiking near Old Rag) and it was on a leash. Luckily it didn't draw blood...


Maybe you should keep your son on a leash then...

Pak-Man
07-20-2009, 07:30
I know this thread started in Jan... but I would just like to say a few things... I have never been attacked or bitten on the trail by a stray dog. My wife and I do however hike with our dog on a leash at all times, and when we are in camp he is on a leash as well. We do this for our protection and our dogs. I cannot count the number of times that we have been approached by a dog not on a leash and the dog is aggressive to ours. Then the owner comes plodding down the path completely oblivious to the events that his dog instigated. When we hike I make our dog get off the trail and sit whenever anyone comes down the trail.. I feel like it is courteous because not everyone like dogs, and some are downright afraid of big dogs.. And ours is a 90 lbs Lab-Dobermnan mix..

Thanks everyone...

We don't need less dogs, just more responsible and courteous dog owners... Period

DBD

snowhoe
07-20-2009, 07:47
Maybe you should keep your son on a leash then...

I can tell you if my kid gets bitten by some ones dog I will do every thing I can to hurt that dog. A dog that bites a person or kids should NOT be out in public.

HIKERJEN
07-20-2009, 14:07
I agree w/ snowhoe - NO dog should bite a person, unless it is being hit, provoked,or abused in some way by another person! There are way too many irresponsibe dog owners who know nothing about dog training or behavior, and have no business owning a dog. Last summer I was walking on a park trail w/ my leashed dog, when a German Shepard came around a corner, unleashed, and started growling and charged at me & my dog. I calmly held my dogs collar in one hand, and sprayed the Shepard w/ pepper spray when it got close enough! The dog stopped in it's tracks, turned around and walked back to it's owners who were coming around the corner at that time. I chewed out the owners for not having their "unfriendly " dog on a leash. I never take my dog on a walk anywhere w/o that pepper spray!! I also carry it when I'm by myself, too.

Rouen
07-21-2009, 11:04
I can tell you if my kid gets bitten by some ones dog I will do every thing I can to hurt that dog. A dog that bites a person or kids should NOT be out in public.

if your kid is stupid enough to walk up to someone elses dog and get close enough to get bitten then your kid should not be in public either, there are social rules that apply when approaching a dog and it's not the dog owners responsibility to make sure your kid knows them. if the dog is on a leash it's restrained and has no option to flee. leashes can also provoke an attack by making the dog feel it has no choice but to defend its self, this is especially true when the leashed dog is being approached by another dog. and just because the leashed dog isn't making noise doesn't mean it's not giving signals that it's going to attack or bite.

Blue Jay
07-21-2009, 19:46
if your kid is stupid enough to walk up to someone elses dog and get close enough to get bitten then your kid should not be in public either, there are social rules that apply when approaching a dog and it's not the dog owners responsibility to make sure your kid knows them. if the dog is on a leash it's restrained and has no option to flee. leashes can also provoke an attack by making the dog feel it has no choice but to defend its self, this is especially true when the leashed dog is being approached by another dog. and just because the leashed dog isn't making noise doesn't mean it's not giving signals that it's going to attack or bite.

Also, leashed or not, not every dog gives any signals at all that it's going to attack. Highly trained dog handlers sometimes get bitten, sometimes due to misreading but sometimes not. Yes there are social rules and a big one is keep your leashed dog from biting children even if it means holding the dog by the collar and getting between the dog and the child. I believe you know this in your heart but like most dog people claim to be heartless. Believe me I like most children less than most dogs, but it is clearly your responsibility to keep your dogs teeth out of them. You are correct about leashes, they clearly make a dog more likely to bite. Hell, they'd make me want to bite. A leashed dog is at the complete mercy of all the dog people who do not leash, how horrible. A dog on the trail is wrong for both the dog and the people and other dogs who are attacked by them. Dog people want them because they cannot be alone and I can understand that. Also believe me I am well aware dog people will not go away, laws or not.

Rouen
07-21-2009, 22:34
Also, leashed or not, not every dog gives any signals at all that it's going to attack. Highly trained dog handlers sometimes get bitten, sometimes due to misreading but sometimes not. Yes there are social rules and a big one is keep your leashed dog from biting children even if it means holding the dog by the collar and getting between the dog and the child. I believe you know this in your heart but like most dog people claim to be heartless. Believe me I like most children less than most dogs, but it is clearly your responsibility to keep your dogs teeth out of them. You are correct about leashes, they clearly make a dog more likely to bite. Hell, they'd make me want to bite. A leashed dog is at the complete mercy of all the dog people who do not leash, how horrible.

I make my dogs sit just off the trail while people pass, if someones kid is going to walk up to them and they get bit it's their own fault, if someone touches my dog without asking, as far as I am concerned my dogs and myself have the right to defend our pack. I'd like to see one of those kids walk up to a trained police dog on duty, ever walk by a parked k-9 unit?

HIKERJEN
07-21-2009, 22:58
A trained police dog isn't going to bite a child- it's only going to bite someone who is threatening it's handler, or if the handler gives it a command to attack someone. Lots of police dogs live in their handler's home, many times w/ children. It's the dog owners who haven't done any obedience trainingw/ their dogs that you have to watch out for- those dogs think they they are in charge, and will do whatever they feel like!

Rouen
07-22-2009, 00:19
A trained police dog isn't going to bite a child- it's only going to bite someone who is threatening it's handler, or if the handler gives it a command to attack someone. Lots of police dogs live in their handler's home, many times w/ children. It's the dog owners who haven't done any obedience trainingw/ their dogs that you have to watch out for- those dogs think they they are in charge, and will do whatever they feel like!

really, k-9 units wont bite kids.. really? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHJ-Wq4PuY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkiMQ7josXg

if they couldn't use k-9's on juveniles the police would have a major set back in apprehending minors.
unlike most house dogs, police k-9's are trained to think that biting humans is fun and part of a game, their handlers have to be taught for at leats a week on how to handle the dog. and a good number of those dogs that do live in home with their handler are either sent to sanctuaries or put down once retired, if the handler does not want to take it, because they are not predictable in a normal house hold.

The Mechanical Man
07-22-2009, 03:22
Does everyone keep their dogs on a leash at all times when hiking and camping?

Thanks for your question about leashes, .................

NO, everyone does not keep their dog on a leash while camping and hiking, AT ALL TIMES.

There is a very good chance you may see unleashed dogs along the AT, unless you are in the Great Smoky Mountains, or Baxter State Park.

HIKERJEN
07-23-2009, 09:19
really, k-9 units wont bite kids.. really? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHJ-Wq4PuY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkiMQ7josXg

if they couldn't use k-9's on juveniles the police would have a major set back in apprehending minors.
unlike most house dogs, police k-9's are trained to think that biting humans is fun and part of a game, their handlers have to be taught for at leats a week on how to handle the dog. and a good number of those dogs that do live in home with their handler are either sent to sanctuaries or put down once retired, if the handler does not want to take it, because they are not predictable in a normal house hold.

Sure, a handler could command a dog to attack a juvenile- but a k-9 isn't going to attack a kid just for the heck of it, w/o a command. The dogs are also taught how to attack a person- usually going for the arm, not the neck, for instance! There are many retired k-9's that continue living in the handler's home after retirement- they're way less unpredictable than an untrained dog! Why would a k-9 that has been living in it's handlers house for years all of a sudden become unpredictable, just because it is now retired? That doesn't make sense. All I was getting at, is that your 1st post about police dogs sounded like you thought police k-9's will indiscriminately attack people, including children, for no reason, which is untrue. Many k-9 handlers take their dogs to schools for career day, etc., and let the kids pet the dog. I don't remember ever hearing a news story about a k-9 that attacked someone w/o provocation, or w/o being commanded to. It may have happened, but I hear ALOT of news stories about regular citizens who own dogs that attack people for no reason!

HIKERJEN
07-23-2009, 09:23
By the way, I watched the 1st youtube you posted- The kid was 12 yrs. old, and PUNCHED the cop-reason enough for the dog to go after him- it wasn't some harmless little 6 yr. old that walked up to the k-9 because he wanted to pet the doggie !

Wise Old Owl
07-28-2009, 23:56
Sure, a handler could command a dog to attack a juvenile- but a k-9 isn't going to attack a kid just for the heck of it, w/o a command. The dogs are also taught how to attack a person- usually going for the arm, not the neck, for instance! There are many retired k-9's that continue living in the handler's home after retirement- they're way less unpredictable than an untrained dog! Why would a k-9 that has been living in it's handlers house for years all of a sudden become unpredictable, just because it is now retired? That doesn't make sense. All I was getting at, is that your 1st post about police dogs sounded like you thought police k-9's will indiscriminately attack people, including children, for no reason, which is untrue. Many k-9 handlers take their dogs to schools for career day, etc., and let the kids pet the dog. I don't remember ever hearing a news story about a k-9 that attacked someone w/o provocation, or w/o being commanded to. It may have happened, but I hear ALOT of news stories about regular citizens who own dogs that attack people for no reason!

Sorry - from personal experience as a newspaper delivery boy at 15 - I was mauled/bitten repeatedly on the hip by an unprovoked retired police dog. / the folks were not home and he burst through a metal fly screen door to get to me as I was delivering. He stopped when I got off the property.




Here is a clear vote to let the thread be locked and dumped to the bottom. Leashes have been done to death folks get a grip and find some other bandwagon - OMG

saimyoji
07-29-2009, 00:22
no, don't dump the thread. People who are going to take their dogs on the trail need to know that it is important to KEEP THEIR DOGS ON A LEASH. Especially in places where the posted law is to.....KEEP YOUR DOG ON A LEASH.

Plodderman
07-29-2009, 06:42
None that I have seen.

Rouen
07-31-2009, 10:47
Sure, a handler could command a dog to attack a juvenile- but a k-9 isn't going to attack a kid just for the heck of it, w/o a command. The dogs are also taught how to attack a person- usually going for the arm, not the neck, for instance! There are many retired k-9's that continue living in the handler's home after retirement- they're way less unpredictable than an untrained dog! Why would a k-9 that has been living in it's handlers house for years all of a sudden become unpredictable, just because it is now retired?
It's called frustration caused by boredom from not having a job to do.


That doesn't make sense. All I was getting at, is that your 1st post about police dogs sounded like you thought police k-9's will indiscriminately attack people, including children, for no reason, which is untrue. Many k-9 handlers take their dogs to schools for career day, etc., and let the kids pet the dog. I don't remember ever hearing a news story about a k-9 that attacked someone w/o provocation, or w/o being commanded to. It may have happened, but I hear ALOT of news stories about regular citizens who own dogs that attack people for no reason!
Ever think that perhaps most these stories are kept quiet, much like the friendly lab vs pit or wolf hybrid. you will hear of a pit or wolf dog attack, but a lab attack? virtually unheard of in the mainstream news, mainly because lab attacks happen so frequently in comparison, why would reporters waste time on an everyday occurence.


By the way, I watched the 1st youtube you posted- The kid was 12 yrs. old, and PUNCHED the cop-reason enough for the dog to go after him- it wasn't some harmless little 6 yr. old that walked up to the k-9 because he wanted to pet the doggie !
but the officer that the kid hit was not the dogs handler so, to the dog, it was not overly important until given the command. yes most dogs are initially trained to go for the arm, but advanced bite work is usually done with a full suit and depending on the breed the take down varies.

again, I assume you've never walked by a parked police cruiser with a k-9 inside. I dont understand how anyone could possibly think that a dog trained to think that biting, taking down or otherwise using their mouth on a human is fun, is a safe dog.

http://wbztv.com/local/boston.police.dog.2.1096523.html
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/articles/dogs.htm

saimyoji
07-31-2009, 11:56
http://wbztv.com/local/boston.police.dog.2.1096523.html
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/articles/dogs.htm


the first link refers to a shepard that was trained to sniff...are sniffing dogs also trained to attack?

the second one is interesting too....blame the humans not the dogs. sounds reasonable.

Rouen
07-31-2009, 12:22
the first link refers to a shepard that was trained to sniff...are sniffing dogs also trained to attack?

the second one is interesting too....blame the humans not the dogs. sounds reasonable.


Depends on what is ordered from the PD, some sniffer dogs are also trained personal protection dogs and not all PPD's are trained as sniffer dogs. as for blame the human not the dog, I agree, it's not the dogs fault humans trained them to think that biting is a game. I was just responging to HIKERJEN who seems to think that police dogs are harmless and only bite when told, which is simply not true and the way they are trained makes them unpredictable, even more so than a house pet or hiking companion.

SteveJ
07-31-2009, 14:23
Can we get back to topic? I moderate - loosely - this forum. I'll start:

I ALWAYS keep Phoebe on lead, for several reasons:
* She's a Siberian Husky. they are notably unreliable when it comes to being off-lead and obeying voice command.
* I'm tired of being harassed on every trip by someone's off lead dog. I love dogs, and can only imagine how someone who doesn't love dogs would feel about being approached by an aggressive, large dog, with no owner in sight.

I would consider taking a dog on trail off-lead IF:
* I had been through several obediance classes with the dog and was 100% confident of my ability to control the dog vocally.
* it was a breed that had the reputation of being controllable.
* I had hiked with the dog on-lead many times, and it had given me/others no problems.....

mister krabs
07-31-2009, 14:29
I always keep Trixie the wonder-feist restrained for all the reasons Steve gave, and one more. She's my kid's dog as much as mine, and I don't want to be the one who loses her. They would remember that for the rest of their lives. I have been using a leash, but she's small, I may just switch to a 20 foot piece of braided mason line. I'll probably save a quarter lb.

LockJaww
07-31-2009, 15:32
My wife and I were out yesterday at Granite Mountain here in Arizona. She was on horseback and I was afoot , but leading a " greenie " ( a young horse ). We encountered three different people with dogs. One was with a couple on horseback, one with some mountain bikers and the third with a hiker.It is CLEARLY POSTED at all the trailheads that dogs must be leashed. ALL THREE WERE OFF LEASH...ALL THREE DOGS MADE A BEELINE FOR THE YOUNG HORSE I WAS LEADING...She just missed kicking one which could have been fatal for ol fido.....KEEP YER DOGS ON A LEASH.!!!

Feral Bill
08-02-2009, 19:24
There have been two recent lost dog threads. Neither was leashed. One was found.

Phreak
08-02-2009, 21:19
KEEP YER DOGS ON A LEASH.!!!
Here is a pic of Suzi, off-leash and harassing a pony at Grayson Highlands. :rolleyes:

elmotoots
08-02-2009, 21:37
Poor dogs they were just tired of all the horse crap they were having to walk in :eek:


but they should have been on a leash, mine is always on leash and i never allow her to aproach anyone who does not ask to pet her. She is still young and loves people.

emerald
08-02-2009, 21:42
What generalizations can be drawn the post and attached image? Maybe we shouldn't draw any conclusions and simply dismiss it as a trolling post.

Rouen
08-03-2009, 01:53
What generalizations can be reasonably drawn from the post and attached image? Maybe we shouldn't draw any conclusions and simply dismiss it as a trolling post.


Perhaps we should do the same with yours then as well. Your post falls into the troll catagory more so than Phreaks, at least his is on topic.

emerald
08-03-2009, 15:26
Does everyone keep their dogs on a leash at all times when hiking and camping?

The answer to the question for those who have not yet sorted it out is no.

Rain Man
08-03-2009, 15:36
* ... had been through several obediance classes with the dog and was 100% confident of ... ability to control the dog vocally....

There is no such thing as 100% vocal control. Even thoroughly trained police and search-and-rescue dogs are kept on leashes. Some lax, lazy dog owners might be fooling themselves, but they aren't fooling others with that imaginary 100% vocal control claim.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Rain:sunMan

.

Egads
08-03-2009, 19:16
Here is a pic of Suzi, off-leash and harassing a pony at Grayson Highlands. :rolleyes:


What generalizations can be reasonably drawn from the post and attached image? Maybe we shouldn't draw any conclusions and simply dismiss it as a trolling post.

Why don't you ask about Suzi's encounter with the pony if you have any doubts. She calmly inched forward to the pony who did the same to Suzi. It was a magical moment and I'm glad Phreak had his camera ready to catch it.

Wise Old Owl
08-03-2009, 19:34
KEEP YER DOGS ON A LEASH.!!!

Feel free to beat the drum LockJaww, now go back and read the sticky and the rules of the forum. Your post is way out of place. If you don't speak up to the dog owners who were in front of you, don't be yelling here, we have all heard it before. Most of us are on board with leashes and gentle leaders,

Your post suggest you are not a leader of men, horses, dogs, or your behaviors.

Phreak
08-03-2009, 20:43
Some lax, lazy dog owners might be fooling themselves, but they aren't fooling others with that imaginary 100% vocal control claim.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

You are more than welcome to do a hike with me and Suzi. I'd like to see if you are singing the same song afterward.

Wise Old Owl
08-07-2009, 10:22
Well folks this has to be said about this thread once again... Leashes have been done to death and we aren't going to solve it here at WB most of us are on board and some arn't -

Unless you are willing to walk up to dog owners and ask them to leash their dog - it just isn't going to happen.

I frequent a local park and it is rare to see an unleashed dog....

We need to move on now.


http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm248/livano85/DOG/puppy_tail.gif

LockJaww
08-07-2009, 15:57
I have been a dog and horse owner for years. One of my dogs accompanies me on hikes quite often...LEASHED..even when we are way out in the boonies where I seldom see anyone else...Why ?....because you just dont know whats around the next corner or over the next hill.
In my thirty plus years around horses , horse farms ,barns etc Ive had the misfortune of seeing two dogs killed by a horse. One was a single kick which broke the dogs neck. The other dog was trampled and had to be put down upon reaching the vets office. The little girl who owned the one that was trampled watched the whole thing. Its been years but Im sure she hasnt forgotten.
Yes I spoke to all three dog owners ...One said that they were sorry...but went off without leashing their dog..the other two were indifferent at best..
Dont let poor ownership put your dog in danger and perhaps put its life at risk....That certainly isnt what I go out into the woods for.

leeki pole
08-07-2009, 16:45
I too care about my dogs. I have four rescues, two Labs, a fiest and a mini dachshund. I walked my Labs off lead for a year on the farm and thought they were under voice control as we never had a problem. But then my neighbor's pit bull got loose and we had an incident and I spent two hours at lunch cleaning up the mess. Luckily, no one was hurt but since then I learned my lesson and they're always on lead. Only the weinie dog is allowed off lead, but he's so low and slow that it doesn't really matter.

sasquatch2014
08-07-2009, 20:56
On my last hike i had the dog on leash at night in camp and for e first few days of the hike he was on leash the last few days he was not. I ran into one person and I know who it was, that rudely asked if the dog was on a leash, he was at this point tucked into my hip belt. the way that this person approached the situation just got my dander up and so I said yes he was on a leash but that wouldn't keep me from releasing him and sicking him on his ass. When I am wet and muddy I can be a bit ornery. I heard the Pub up ahead calling my name and was in no mood t be dealing with a closed and narrow minded individual who has nothing better t do than bitch about things. A simple thank you for having him on a leash would have been fine but not from this jerk and hence my response.

You know the only dog problem I ran into on my 10 plus days was from Day Hikers. My approach to dogs on the trail and issues of the like on this Forum is "Whatever and FTW!"

superman
08-07-2009, 21:02
I'm not going to put my dog on a leash again for any reason, any place.

sheepdog
08-08-2009, 12:33
There is no such thing as 100% vocal control. Even thoroughly trained police and search-and-rescue dogs are kept on leashes. Some lax, lazy dog owners might be fooling themselves, but they aren't fooling others with that imaginary 100% vocal control claim.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Rain:sunMan

.
There is no such thing as 100 percent leash control either. They get dropped, they break, they lunge and still get at people or other dogs. I've seen and owned some dogs that are very well trained. I was bird hunting with my springer spaniel in the Pigeon River State Forrest in Michigan. There are horse trails so occasionally I would run into a group. I would hit the Hup Whistle (Hup means sit and stay untill I tell you to move) and my dog would sit calmly and watch the horses walk by. More than one person said, "that is the best trained dog I've ever seen." You want a guantee? Buy a toaster.

Wise Old Owl
08-08-2009, 13:00
best stuff on earth... great result in one to two walks. And they remember even when its not in use after a month.

http://www.buygentleleader.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/gentleleader/video

CrumbSnatcher
08-08-2009, 13:03
I'm not going to put my dog on a leash again for any reason, any place.
i pretty much have given up on dog threads,no matter what you say you will be wrong. to be straight forward my dog bear had well over 6,000 miles on the A.T. SHE MIGHT OF BEEN LEASHED FOR 50 of those miles.(towns,road walks,etc...)she walked right ahead of me probably 30-50 feet ahead of me usually. a few times maybe a few hundred feet. she would not cross roads without me,she would sit down well off the road,or come back to me.thats usually how i knew a road crossing was just up ahead because she came back! i have challenged anyone on a few different sites to come forward and tell me if they had any issues with my dog. nobody yet! miss janet,bob peoples,rob of the birdcage and many others will tell you that my dog was special.she always had a reserved couch at kincora,she was allowed in the church in vernon,N.J. 3 TIMES.she was the only dog ever allowed in the bird cage, because rob had a big 150pd. dog( i want to say his name was tinker. that had killed a dog or two in the past.bear was so mellow and robs dog was sweet on her! she would twitch and he would jump sky high,it was funny. packrat in glencliff loved her. on our last thruhike bear was 10 and i didn't want to push her. so to keep her on the journey without all the miles! bear hikes avg. days with me,and when we came close to friends houses like blister or night stalker she would get a few days off quit a bit,10-15 mile days with her 20-45 mile days without her. i used to joke about my last thruhike "i called it the restraunt tour'' i'd cover big days like crawford notch to pinkham notch in a day so i could get back to bear that night. most of my dinner meals were in town. just the way i wanted it HMOH she would not beg,she did not ruin anybodys gear or go near the gear. she was a gental soul. very quiet,we set up shop in a few shelters but did not wait to ask if she was ok in there if it started to fill up,we would gather our stuff and go and set up the tent. the tents is a better place any way! i was just being lazy to set up. 1 time only i was bitched at for her drinking upstream from a guy at the road before max patch. i apoligized and it took me one time to show her to drink down stream if others were around. sorry for rambling,say what you want, bears gone and your not going to hurt my feelings anymore! for the most part i think leashes are a good idea! and i would not be happy either, if a dog threated me on the trail.most dogs are great! the trail can stress them out and change them. things happen always command you dog and HTDH
i know every dog owner says their dog is special,but maybe just maybe some of them are telling the truth!

CrumbSnatcher
08-08-2009, 13:28
There are horse trails so occasionally I would run into a group. I would hit the Hup Whistle (Hup means sit and stay untill I tell you to move) and my dog would sit calmly and watch the horsed walk by. More than one person said, "that is the best trained dog I've ever seen." You want a guantee? Buy a toaster.
i did this at many places. the first time was at goose pond cabins or whatever their called(north of neel gap)in 98' the owner seen that bear was laid back and well behaved. ask if she would bother the baby ducks walking around. i said no,she was sniffing around. just then a mother duck was walking towards us with alot of chicks following her. i told bear down. she layed down and sniffed them on the way by just inches away. later in the night she was actually playing with them.

CrumbSnatcher
08-08-2009, 13:52
Sorry For Rambling, Not Trying To Stir The S***. Just Missing The Pooch Today And Rambled On. Hope Everyone Has A Great Weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SteveJ
08-08-2009, 15:10
I"m sure Bear was special CS....I think there's another dog out there that needs you as a master.....

CrumbSnatcher
08-08-2009, 15:30
I"m sure Bear was special CS....I think there's another dog out there that needs you as a master.....
theres alot of special dogs out there. i actually didn't teach her that much. she taught me alot more. thanks for the kind words!

Wise Old Owl
08-08-2009, 17:13
I'm with you CS if we can't have a different thread without someone mentioning a 5 letter word starting with L what is the point? I am just as burned out here and I love taking my dogs.

Rain Man
08-09-2009, 00:02
I had one owner hiking down the trail with 2 dogs, totally unable to control them, talking to someone on his cell phone as his dogs rushed me. I had to fend them off with my hiking poles they were so aggressive and had no idea if I was about to be bitten. About 30 minutes later, heading back to my car, ran into the same guy, still on his phone, still unable to control his dogs. Still unleashed.

Finally, a cogent reason for "packing" a weapon on the AT.

Rain Man

.

sheepdog
08-09-2009, 09:47
Finally, a cogent reason for "packing" a weapon on the AT.

Rain Man

.
Yeah, that guy needs to be shot. ;):D:sun

LockJaww
08-09-2009, 09:57
Rain Man is on to something ...I am going to begin hiking with a canister of bear spray. Im sure that will have an effect on uncontrolled dogs.

superman
08-09-2009, 10:20
I propose a new dog sport. What you do is take a pack of dogs to a trail head and send all the dogs up the trail. Then you get back in your prios and drive to the next trail head. You and your buds can bet on which dog comes out of the woods first and you can bet on how many dogs of the pack will show up by a certain time. You could even cover the event using you cell phone and have on line betting on the event.
This is just another million dollar idea for everyones fun and quality time with there dogs. Yet, another great way to exercise your dogs.:)

Rouen
08-09-2009, 11:48
I propose a new dog sport. What you do is take a pack of dogs to a trail head and send all the dogs up the trail. Then you get back in your prios and drive to the next trail head. You and your buds can bet on which dog comes out of the woods first and you can bet on how many dogs of the pack will show up by a certain time. You could even cover the event using you cell phone and have on line betting on the event.
This is just another million dollar idea for everyones fun and quality time with there dogs. Yet, another great way to exercise your dogs.:)


and you can call it hunting. :rolleyes:

superman
08-09-2009, 11:53
and you can call it hunting. :rolleyes:

The gambling revenues could pay for all the trail systems and kick in some for bringing electricity, hot water and wi fi to all the shelters. How great would that be?:D

Rouen
08-09-2009, 11:58
The gambling revenues could pay for all the trail systems and kick in some for bringing electricity, hot water and wi fi to all the shelters. How great would that be?:D

this is a superfantastic idea superman. then more people would be on the trail and toll booths could be installed.

superman
08-09-2009, 13:19
this is a superfantastic idea superman. then more people would be on the trail and toll booths could be installed.

Shizam! They could have McDonalds at the shelter and they wouldn't have to carry any heavy food. Hikers could sell burgers for their food and it wouldn't cost them anything to hike the AT. They could have those super duper antennas for cell phones...maybe coin operated. Then it wouldn't cost taxpayers anything to pave the trail. The possibilities abound.

Wise Old Owl
08-09-2009, 14:57
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/entry.jpg

superman
08-09-2009, 18:09
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/entry.jpg
Are you saying that "change" isn't always for the better?:D

Wise Old Owl
08-09-2009, 18:26
You would be 100% correct....

Do you like the solar powered night light on the sign? .... what a green touch....

superman
08-09-2009, 22:17
You would be 100% correct....

Do you like the solar powered night light on the sign? .... what a green touch....

My green touch was to rent condos near the shelters and power the whole thing with big honkin windmills like they have on the PCT. Incidently this is the dog bite that I got on my evening walk tonight.

superman
08-09-2009, 22:25
Can someone fix that attachment. I'm not very good with the computer.:(

SteveJ
08-09-2009, 23:30
Can someone fix that attachment. I'm not very good with the computer.:(

Done...ouch!

superman
08-10-2009, 04:23
Done...ouch!

About 7:00 PM I was walking on the loacal rail trail. I usually do this twice a day. The rail trail goes passed my house on the opposite side of the road. I was about half a mile from my house when I saw someone walking toward me in the distance. Then I realized two small dogs were running like hell at me. I stepped off the trail to let them go by but I was what they were running to. They were barking and circling me. When the woman finally got up to me I looked at her and one of her dogs scooted behind me and bit the back of my leg. The woman had that dazed and confused look on her face. I told her to control her dogs and she said that she was doing the best she could. I told her that there is no excuse for not having her dogs under control. The dogs absolutely did not listen to anything she said. I asked her if it ever occurred to her to train her dogs and/or keep them on a leash. She had the leashes for both dogs around her neck but she couldn't get the dogs to come to her to put them on the leashes.
So when I got home I called our one man police department. He had been bitten by the same dog. He had already determined that the dogs had already had all their shots. He went over and gave her a ticket. I called the VA and was told to come into the VA for medical treatment this morning. There are just a lot of people who shouldn't be allowed to own a dog or have children. I didn't get a chance to tell the dogs that I'm pro-dog.:)

sheepdog
08-10-2009, 08:33
My green touch was to rent condos near the shelters and power the whole thing with big honkin windmills like they have on the PCT. Incidently this is the dog bite that I got on my evening walk tonight.
Little buggers must have had kryptonite teeth :eek:. I hate dogs that are not under control. Doesn't matter what size (although if I had to be biten I would rather it was a small dog).

sasquatch2014
08-10-2009, 08:34
Like in the book and movie The World According to Garp Garp bit Bonnkie. I am a firm believer in biting back. grrrrrr.

sheepdog
08-10-2009, 08:34
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/entry.jpg
I'd rather see a toll booth. Someone could have a job that way. Nice photo shop WOO!!!:D

superman
08-10-2009, 09:31
I'd rather see a toll booth. Someone could have a job that way. Nice photo shop WOO!!!:D

How about just converting the existing cow styles.:D

Rain Man
08-10-2009, 10:24
How about just converting the existing cow styles.:D

What style of cow do you want along the AT?! :D

Rain:sunMan

P.S. Or did you mean stile? ;)

.

Rouen
08-10-2009, 11:28
How about just converting the existing cow styles.:D

what kind of style do cows have along the trail? where do they shop?

Blue Jay
08-10-2009, 11:32
what kind of style do cows have along the trail? where do they shop?

Cows are not very stylish, most wear Ben and Jerry's T shirts.

superman
08-10-2009, 11:35
What style of cow do you want along the AT?! :D

Rain:sunMan

P.S. Or did you mean stile? ;)

.
I thought about which way was the correct spelling but then I figured that no one on WB would notice anyway.:D

superman
08-10-2009, 11:46
When I was a kid, a German shepherd bit me a bunch of times on my back. I was always cautious of being around German Shepherds. Then I found one in the middle of the rode when she was 5 weeks old and she turned out to be the best dog I'd ever had. The current leg biter is of a breed that is usually friendly. The owner is so clueless that she shouldn’t be aloud to have any kind of dog. What it boils down to for me is that it very much depends on the individual dog and the individual owner. I've had many different dogs in my lifetime but Winter was the only one that I would have taken on a thru hike. It is very possible to have a great thru hike with a dog but it's not something that should be done without a lot of thought and preparation... prepare, prepare, prepare.:-?

Rain Man
08-10-2009, 12:40
I thought about which way was the correct spelling but then I figured that no one on WB would notice anyway.:D

Foolish boy! But thanks,... it gave us the opportunity for a little humor at your expense. Hope we weren't too hard on you.
:D
Rain:sunMan

.

Jonnycat
08-17-2009, 14:21
I believe in mandatory child leash laws.

http://i28.tinypic.com/a466he.jpg

Phreak
08-17-2009, 15:57
I believe in mandatory child leash laws.

http://i28.tinypic.com/a466he.jpg
--- Amen! ---

Wise Old Owl
08-22-2009, 12:15
Too Funny Superman & Rain Man here Have a cow man!

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/Methanecow.jpg


Make sure it's got a Leash.....Shhhheezzz.