View Full Version : Seriously cold weather and Alcohol stoves!
I have heard some on this forum and others say that an alcohol stove is not good for cold weather. So I decided to try it out.
I checked the temperature on weather.com. Here in Glidden, IA,(1/15/09) it was -9 F (real temperature! windchill in the -20's) with a 5-10mph wind. Very cold! Perfect for finding out what my supercat can really do!
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/7/6/9/4/dscn6935.jpg
Jim Falk's version of the supercat only has 8 holes around the middle of the can, so it burns slower than your typical supercat. This turned out to be a problem.
My first test wasn't much of a test. I took water from the cold tap (probably 65F) and my room temperature Heet and the rest of my cooking gear outside. I used about an ounce of heet (one full film container's worth. I know, it's alot, but I didn't know how much the stove would use in these extra cold temps), and lit the stove with my bic lighter. I let the stove prime for 30 seconds, placed two cups of water on top, and had boiling water in maybe 6 minutes. Not bad! But not a realistic test, either!
By the way, did you know that when you throw a pan of boiling water into the air in -9F, it freezes before it hits the ground!?!
My next test revealed alot about my cooking setup! (Failure does that quite well) I let my gear sit outside for 15 minutes as well as the water and Heet before trying it again. The water quickly formed a layer of ice over it, which I broke and poured two more cups of the now 32F water into my freezing cold pot. I measured out another ounce of now freezing cold heat and try to start the stove with my freezing cold bic lighter.
My fingers and toes were beginning to numb at this point. I couldn't work the lighter with my gloves on, so I took them off to flick the bic a half-dozen times. Nothing. Must have frozen up! So I try the box of matches that I also keep in my cooking gear. It took me three matches to get the alcohol to vaporize and light. But I finally got it! (good thing, too, I can no longer feel my finger tips!) I let the stove prime for longer than the first time until it is burning good, put the windscreen on, put the pot on, and then run back inside. I desperately try to warm my fingers by wrapping them around an incandescent light bulb. Then I watched. After a couple minutes, I get curious and venture back out to see if the water is boiling. It's not. The stove went out. Sigh...most of my fuel is left, so I give it another go. Same thing happens.
The third time, I pull my windscreen apart to see exactly what is going on. When the flames start to go out, I pulled the pot off of the stove and it jumps back to life. I did that twice, and then my fuel went out.
I learned a couple of things about stoves in cold weather. The first is that you absolutely have to have a reliable fire source that is easy to ignite with cold fingers! And preferably, more than one! Bic lighters don't work in -9F unless you keep them warm in your pocket. They are also very difficult for me to use when my fingers don't want to cooperate. Regular matches were much easier to use, but even they were difficult to light in just a slight wind.
Second thing I learned is that you should keep all of your kitchen gear in one place and be completely comfortable using it before you attempt to use it in that cold of weather. I need more practice so that I can get things going quickly and efficiently.
Thirdly, my stove is not designed for that cold of weather. My supercat has only eight holes punched in it. It works great in the other three seasons! Last summer, I was able to boil four cups of water with one ounce of fuel! But it couldn't burn hot enough to keep the Heet boiling like it is supposed to in -9F weather. The cold pot absorbed the heat too quickly for the stove to keep itself primed. But I think that regular supercat with two rows of holes would burn hot enough to keep the stove primed and would boil the water. I will have to try it again another time. A simple, open-flame stove would burn just fine, I bet, but I am really curious to know how a pressurized stove like the Bios 2 or Zelph's Cobalt stove would work...
Anyway, please share your experiences with alcohol stoves at extreme temps. Any tips for me? I know someone mentioned that pretty much everyone in the Iditarod(sp?) dog-sled races uses alcohol stoves, does anyone know what kind of alcohol stove they use?
Also, can anyone recommend a good titanium pot that is roughly the same size and capacity as my Kmart grease pot? It is the perfect size and holds all my kitchen gear.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/7/6/9/4/dscn6932.jpg
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/7/6/9/4/dscn6936.jpg
Your test parallels my tests a few years ago, but mine were in the 0-+5 range.
Punching more holes in your stove will, indeed, make it burn more efficiently in cold weather. My pressurized stoves tended to go out without a lot of exterior priming just as your Supercat did. Keeping the alcohol bottle inside your coat will help a lot as will placing the stove on a piece of thin plywood covered with aluminum foil. Open top stoves are the easiest to use in extremely cold weather, but the heat output sometimes can't keep up with the amount of heat drawn away by the cold.
Now I'm going to have to get out my alch.stove and play tonight, supposed to be -1 here, we'll see how it goes :)
Gumbi - Do yourself a favor. If you're trying to go ultra light, ditch the pot gripper (use a bandanna) or, at least, cut the handles in half. Also, buy one of these:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/titanium-foil-windscreen.html . They roll up to the size of a pencil stub and fit in your cookpot. I use small paper clips to hold the ends together.
I think the Evernew .9 liter pot is about the same size as the K-mart unit (which, by the way, has WAY more lid than it needs - and you can't use it as a frypan, either).
Have fun and stay warm.
Gumbi - Do yourself a favor. If you're trying to go ultra light, ditch the pot gripper (use a bandanna) or, at least, cut the handles in half. Also, buy one of these:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/titanium-foil-windscreen.html . They roll up to the size of a pencil stub and fit in your cookpot. I use small paper clips to hold the ends together.
I think the Evernew .9 liter pot is about the same size as the K-mart unit (which, by the way, has WAY more lid than it needs - and you can't use it as a frypan, either).
Have fun and stay warm.
Thanks for the advise, Tinker! My wife thinks that I am crazy, but I sure had a lot of fun testing it out.
I try to go lightweight, I don't have a lot of money either. I don't think that $20 for some TI foil for a windscreen is worth it to me right now. I can't justify that expense (yet). Maybe someday when I win the lottery... (though my chances would be better if I actually played!)
But, no, I won't get rid of my pot gripper!!!:) I would feel uncomfortable trying to pick up a pot of boiling water with just a bandana. Accidentally melting a glove at -9F could be pretty devastating! Of course, if I do buy an evernew Ti pot, I won't have to worry about it! (I would be willing to splurge and buy something quality that will last me probably forever.)
Zelph, do you have any input here?
Now I'm going to have to get out my alch.stove and play tonight, supposed to be -1 here, we'll see how it goes :)
I would love to hear how it goes!!!
The Solemates
01-16-2009, 15:44
This is a great, well written scientifically conducted post that the engineer in me really appreciates. thanks!
This is precisely why I do not use an alcohol stove, cold weather. People always say they can use an alky stove on the trail just fine, but I have always questioned their true winter experience since I have yet to a) get one to work in the cold, and b) have never seen anyone use on in the cold.
By the way, "cold" to me is below 15F. (It was -1 here this morning with the windchill, and 11 without).
Slo-go'en
01-16-2009, 15:53
See my recent thread in the homemade gear forum called "cold weather alcohol stove system". Using a semi-presurized stove, I found putting it inside a tin can (which doubles as the pot stand), insulating the stove with fiberglass insulation and supporting the stove above the ground, I was able to make it work at sub zero temps. I was able to get about a cup of 45 degree water to boil in about 10 minutes at -6 degress.
I show using a tea light candle to preheat the stove and fuel, but it turns out you can put some alcohol on the fiberglass insulation around the stove and light that to heat up the stove. Now knowing that, I could make the can shorter, as it doesn't have to be high enough to put a candle under it.
The important thing is to insulate the stove, keep it from touching the ground and support the pot above the stove. And yeah, matches work better than bic lighters in the cold!
This is a great, well written scientifically conducted post that the engineer in me really appreciates. thanks!
This is precisely why I do not use an alcohol stove, cold weather. People always say they can use an alky stove on the trail just fine, but I have always questioned their true winter experience since I have yet to a) get one to work in the cold, and b) have never seen anyone use on in the cold.
By the way, "cold" to me is below 15F. (It was -1 here this morning with the windchill, and 11 without).
I am not opposed to using an alchy stove in cold weather. I believe my failure to produce boiling water was due to a stove design that was not made for this kind of weather.
I think, with a few modifications, I can have a stove that will reliably work in cold weather. Time will tell.
For sure, you will use alot more fuel to get the water boiling, but I would still rather trust an alcohol stove than a liquid fuel stove at these temps. Just think, the smallest bit of water in a gas stove could cause the fuel line to freeze up, rendering it inoperable... Maybe there are tricks to get around this problem, but the simplicity and lack of parts to break in the alcohol stove is definitely a plus when you HAVE to get your stove running.
But this is all just my perspective. Until I can reliably get an alcohol stove to work in sub zero F temps, I really can't argue with you:)
You guys need to come out here.CO. Its about almost 60 degrees and its going to be in the lower 60s by tuesday.
The Solemates
01-16-2009, 18:41
I was able to get about a cup of 45 degree water to boil in about 10 minutes at -6 degress.
thats nice and all, but i would rather use my stove and get water in 5 minutes and use less fuel. even if my stove does weigh 6 ounces more :eek::rolleyes:
thats nice and all, but i would rather use my stove and get water in 5 minutes and use less fuel. even if my stove does weigh 6 ounces more :eek::rolleyes:
What kind of a stove do you like to use in extreme temps?
Beer bottle stoves(bios, wbs,cobalt) are warmer weather stoves. It takes too much fuel to prime them and the cold pot sucks the heat right out of them and the flame goes out more times than what it's worth. They need to be insulated from cold ground/snow/ice.
The StarLyte and Fancee Feest are cold weather friendly because of the wicking of fuel up and into oxygen.
A cotton ball saturated with alcohol is good for cold weather. It'll get consumed after it runs out of fuel, but it works. Easy to light:)
Shallow stoves lite easier than deep stoves. Ion is shallow, FeaterFire is deep. Shallow stoves with large openings lite easier than small openings. A wedding tin without a cover will lite faster than one that has a 1" inch opening like the Ion. Stoves like oxygen. A weeding favor tin(without a top) will light if a match or twig is held into the fuel to get it to heat up enough to stay lit on it's own in frigid temps.
My demo was just for the fun of it. You would'nt catch me trying to camp/hike, anything, in such cold weather. We are having some xtreme temps and it was good to show thar alcohol does burn in cold weather. The type of stove you chose does make a difference.
There is another video that I did last year up in MN with temps down to
-13 degrees with wind blowing fierce and the StarLyte was used to thaw the door latches on my car en route to the doctors office in Mineapolis. (Long Story) I think the video is posted in the StarLyte thread.
Great info!
I use the Trangia burner exclusively, so my results are somewhat different. The Trangia is hard to light when extremely cold, but it lights. It is easier to light a 90% full burner than a 90% empty one. And I have to touch the fuel with the match. The Trangia takes a long time to get to full-output in the extreme cold - maybe 5 minutes or so. So boil times are about 50% longer.
I hate Bic lighters when it is cold and I'm not fond of them when it is warm.
buckwheat
01-16-2009, 19:32
What kind of a stove do you like to use in extreme temps?
A pressurized canister stove works well down to about 0, if you keep the fuel relatively warm (using a can cozy, or other insulation).
White gas stoves are preferred by mountaineers for their ability to work well and melt snow efficiently in very extreme temperatures.
It's not the alcohol that is the problem, it is the stove. I find it interesting that everyone who seems to believe alcohol does not work well in the cold always use a pressurized or semi-pressurized stove to "prove their point". A wick stove has no problem at all. Zelph mentions the Starlyte and Fancee Feest. I use both with great success in 0*F temp, that is well below the 15*F that was stated to be "cold".
Now I do not know what stove these guys use but they use alcohol: http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/sledcargo.htm
For those who cannot get their alcohol stove to work well in the cold it isn't an alcohol problem it is the choice of alcohol stove.
Slo-go'en
01-16-2009, 20:23
thats nice and all, but i would rather use my stove and get water in 5 minutes and use less fuel. even if my stove does weigh 6 ounces more :eek::rolleyes:
Ture, but now that I know I can make my alki stove work in extream cold, I know it will work even better in early spring or late fall when it would have otherwise been marginal or not work at all. I also know now that I can take it along on a cold winter day hike just to have something warm to drink at lunch.
But for real camping in serious cold and you want something hot !NOW!, white gas stoves win hands down.
I looked it up... The iditarod mushers use homemade alcohol cookers which are ... you guessed it... wick based! They can melt 3 gallons of water to a boil in 20-30 minutes.
edit: that is "melt 3 gallons of water to a boil from snow"
Nearly Normal
01-16-2009, 21:33
With my trangia westwind model I sometimes put a tea candle beneath it for a few minutes to speed up the bloom. Once its working well, I remove it. Not needed for long and only when very cold.
OK, first test was just lighting the fuel and getting it started, just out of the house at 18 degrees, no problem. What I did learn is that wooden matches are a bad idea in the cold!
Next I left the gear out till well after dark, it's now 11 degrees. I used one ounce of denat alcohol, and one cup of water. It took two minutes almost exactly for the stove to prime and then "catch" to all the holes. I agree about the lighter ( which I used) definitely needs to be in a pocket. It took several tries to light, but then was AOK.
I did not use a wind screen, nor a lid for the ti mug. It took 4.25 minutes to boil one cup of water, there were breezy gusts of wind. I wanted to create a scenario without all the extras to see how it would go. The flame burned for a little while more before it went out.
video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg5QfRKZAmk)
I guess it really depends on how much water you are boiling as well :)
OK, first test was just lighting the fuel and getting it started, just out of the house at 18 degrees, no problem. What I did learn is that wooden matches are a bad idea in the cold!
Next I left the gear out till well after dark, it's now 11 degrees. I used one ounce of denat alcohol, and one cup of water. It took two minutes almost exactly for the stove to prime and then "catch" to all the holes. I agree about the lighter ( which I used) definitely needs to be in a pocket. It took several tries to light, but then was AOK.
I did not use a wind screen, nor a lid for the ti mug. It took 4.25 minutes to boil one cup of water, there were breezy gusts of wind. I wanted to create a scenario without all the extras to see how it would go. The flame burned for a little while more before it went out.
video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg5QfRKZAmk)
I guess it really depends on how much water you are boiling as well :)
Out of curiousity, what kind of stove were you using?
A little pepsi can stove I got from AntiGravityGear (http://antigravitygear.com/proddetail.php?prod=AGALBC). Tin Man does these I believe, I also use the caldera cone, but I dont have it with me right now.
What I should do, is replicate the two cup model you were going with, and try that with one ounce of denat. and see how it goes. I got rid of my wind screen thing when I bought the cone, it in itself is a screen, and works really well. I wonder if altitude effects alcohol along with the cold, I would think that it would.
I had on gloves, and the lighter was super hard to use! Keep warm :)
I had on gloves, and the lighter was super hard to use! Keep warm :)
There has to be an easier way!
My lighter, in addition to being hard to use with cold fingers, froze up and refused to light. I wondered if it had just run out of butane, so I brought it inside. As soon as it warmed up, it lit right up, just like it is supposed to.
Matches were easier to manipulate with the fingers, but they didn't want to stay lit in the cold weather, and it took several tries to keep one lit long enough to vaporize and light the alcohol. I can't even imagine trying matches in any kind of wind at that temp.
I doubt that a firesteel would do the trick by itself. Anyone have experience with it?:o
Any other good ideas to try?
Here is video on lighters the last one i like to use works great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlMYIffeNo&feature=channel_page
Here is video on lighters the last one i like to use works great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlMYIffeNo&feature=channel_page
That might do the trick!
mkmangold
01-17-2009, 02:59
"By the way, did you know that when you throw a pan of boiling water into the air in -9F, it freezes before it hits the ground!?!
I almost went outside to try this out and film it but it is (fortunately) only 1 degree F here in SE Wisconsin.
buckwheat
01-17-2009, 09:21
It's not the alcohol that is the problem ...
Bingo! You get a dancing banana!
:banana
Denatured alcohol is flammable as long as there's oxygen available. Being able to have a flame is not really the point, though, is it? What can you do with that flame ... how many BTUs per hour can that flame emit? These are the considerations that someone not selling alcohol stoves cares about.
The fuel has nothing at all to do with whether an alcohol stove is appropriate for your winter hiking needs.
Winter hiking needs are vastly different than summer needs. A stove that takes 8 minutes to boil a litre of water in summer at sea level really isn't a problem, since you can stand around for 8 minutes waiting on it without even noticing the time passing.
When it is 4 degrees and the wind is blowing 25 miles per hour steadily, gusting to 50 ... 22 minutes waiting for a litre of water to boil will be problematic to say the least. Additionally, you cannot use most of these stove designs to melt snow ... not because it isn't possible, but because it's not practical. You usually are not carrying enough fuel and you'll freeze to death long before you ever die of dehydration waiting on the thing to melt snow.
If you are venturing into winter conditions, then packing and relying on stoves of this design is foolhardy. I would not recommend to a friend that they attempt it any more than I'd recommend that they venture out without a coat ... even though it's technically possible for them to do so.
Homer&Marje
01-17-2009, 09:39
This is a great, well written scientifically conducted post that the engineer in me really appreciates. thanks!
This is precisely why I do not use an alcohol stove, cold weather. People always say they can use an alky stove on the trail just fine, but I have always questioned their true winter experience since I have yet to a) get one to work in the cold, and b) have never seen anyone use on in the cold.
By the way, "cold" to me is below 15F. (It was -1 here this morning with the windchill, and 11 without).
They use alcohol stoves and heet on the Iditorod Trail every year in Alaska. and 15* to them is summer time:D
I plan on doing a little testing of my stoves as well. I feel a lot of preparation will lead to very little effort. If your going on an overnight or two, first keep your cook set somewhere insulated in the middle of your pack. Take things out prior to cooking and put them inside your jacket to warm them up if necessary.
You could get crazy and go as far as taking a set of hand warmers, use one at a time and put it inside your cookset as your hiking. They stay warm for 6 hours, and would give you a warm start. If you leave most things in sub zero temperatures it's not gonna work well. Not just Alky stoves.
Off the ground, don't rush the process, and always carry matches and a lighter.
Bingo! You get a dancing banana!
:banana
Denatured alcohol is flammable as long as there's oxygen available. Being able to have a flame is not really the point, though, is it? What can you do with that flame ... how many BTUs per hour can that flame emit? These are the considerations that someone not selling alcohol stoves cares about.
The fuel has nothing at all to do with whether an alcohol stove is appropriate for your winter hiking needs.
Winter hiking needs are vastly different than summer needs. A stove that takes 8 minutes to boil a litre of water in summer at sea level really isn't a problem, since you can stand around for 8 minutes waiting on it without even noticing the time passing.
When it is 4 degrees and the wind is blowing 25 miles per hour steadily, gusting to 50 ... 22 minutes waiting for a litre of water to boil will be problematic to say the least. Additionally, you cannot use most of these stove designs to melt snow ... not because it isn't possible, but because it's not practical. You usually are not carrying enough fuel and you'll freeze to death long before you ever die of dehydration waiting on the thing to melt snow.
If you are venturing into winter conditions, then packing and relying on stoves of this design is foolhardy. I would not recommend to a friend that they attempt it any more than I'd recommend that they venture out without a coat ... even though it's technically possible for them to do so.
You keep lumping all alcohol stoves into a single category, "stoves of this design". I have said many times there are alcohol stoves that do work very well in the cold and the conditions you describe. The pepsi can side burning etc... stoves are NOT it.
The iditarod mushers use alcohol stoves to melt snow as do I. It isn't a matter of being "technically possible", it is very practical WITH THE RIGHT ALCOHOL STOVE.
I suppose we can agree to disagree.
Does anyone know someone who lives in the northern latitudes, dog sleds and uses an alcohol stove? I am sure someone on the forum knows someone...
What stove design is it?
Its always good to consult with someone who has been there.
Yaduck, I do not know any dog sledders but their published stories are fascinating. A good read is "No End in Sight. MY Life as a Blind Iditarod Racer".
Here is some info on dog sledders and their alcohol cookers:
Another story: http://www.rnorthbounddogs.com/WhiteMtToNome.html
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html
A company that sells cookers: http://www.shopworks.com/adanac/
Yaduck, I do not know any dog sledders but their published stories are fascinating. A good read is "No End in Sight. MY Life as a Blind Iditarod Racer".
Here is some info on dog sledders and their alcohol cookers:
Another story: http://www.rnorthbounddogs.com/WhiteMtToNome.html
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html
A company that sells cookers: http://www.shopworks.com/adanac (http://www.shopworks.com/adanac/)
/ (http://www.shopworks.com/adanac/)
Thanks for the post. It almost sounds like a non pressurized or low pressure stove.
At least we know that alcohol can be used in the cold. We just need to know the design of the stove.:-?
buckwheat
01-17-2009, 14:49
They use alcohol stoves and heet on the Iditorod Trail every year in Alaska. and 15* to them is summer time:D
No, they don't use the typical type of alcohol stove you'll find in a hiker's pack - or the "Pepsi-can" stove, as they are known.
Sledders in the Iditarod use huge amounts of alcohol fuel in very large stoves that are packed on dog sleds. Such stoves are not practical to hike with, and are in no way comparable to a typical alcohol stove carried by a hiker.
Sledders carry these large alcohol stoves because alcohol fuel is not as explosive as alternatives; they do it for the safety reasons, at the sacrifice of the much, much better BTU potential of white gas stoves.
They do not do it because alcohol stoves are better at melting snow, for example.
A five gallon alcohol stove isn't practical for backpackers.
MDhiker1967
01-17-2009, 23:32
I used a Mini Bull design Mini Atomic stove this morning in 0* temp.. to boil just under 2 cups of water and this was while out on a shortened hike.. I used a windscreen. and had a mini bic lighter that was cold as well... It took me 2 times to get stove lit but once it did I had no problems....The Mini Atomic stove is a good little stove...
MDhiker1967
01-17-2009, 23:50
5456
JumpInTheLake
01-19-2009, 21:54
Tinny at MiniBullDesign has videos of his wick type stoves boiling water at very cold temps. He's on YouTube.
Dances with Mice
01-19-2009, 22:46
Sledders carry these large alcohol stoves because alcohol fuel is not as explosive as alternatives; they do it for the safety reasons, at the sacrifice of the much, much better BTU potential of white gas stoves. They do not do it because alcohol stoves are better at melting snow, for example.
That's not exactly what Jeff King is reported to have said:
Ten years have passed since Jeff King last poured white gas over his two-burner stove and set it on fire to make it functional. Like other mushers competing in the Iditarod Trail sled dog race, King has taken advantage of the new technology that has emerged in the three decades since the first Iditarod.
King, a three-time Iditarod champion and 1989 Yukon Quest winner, remembers using a two-burner Coleman stove to heat water for his dogs in the early days of his racing career. During extreme cold weather, he sometimes needed to preheat the stove's components by setting the stove ablaze, then moving back in to light the burners after the inferno died down.
" It was heavy and cumbersome and tremendous trouble," King said recently from his home in Denali Park. "Once the alcohol cooker came on the scene in the early 90s, the white gas stove was obsolete in 12 months," King said.Since the article was written, Jeff won again making him a 4X Iditarod champ.
Dances with Mice
01-19-2009, 22:47
That's not exactly what Jeff King is reported to have said:Oops. Source. (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html)
Hiya Gumbi. Nice to see another Iowan on the site. We are pretty rare. I use a Heinekin beer can for my pot surrounded by Kevlar tape. No pot gripper. Check out http://www.freewebs.com/jasonklass/heinekenpotwick.htm
An addendum. This past weekend I used my fancee feest alcohol stove to melt snow and cook my food. The nightime temp was -5*F, warmed up to about zero when I made breakfast. Alcohol was sitting out all night as was the stove, and cookpot (AGG 3-cupper). I melted enough snow (and boiled) to make a large cup of coffee as well as 2 servings of oatmeal. Used just under 2oz (volume) of DA. In my experience the starlyte stove is better in this temp than the fancee feest, as the frozen cookpot doesn't touch the stove; well it doesn't on mine ;)
An addendum. This past weekend I used my fancee feest alcohol stove to melt snow and cook my food. The nightime temp was -5*F, warmed up to about zero when I made breakfast. Alcohol was sitting out all night as was the stove, and cookpot (AGG 3-cupper). I melted enough snow (and boiled) to make a large cup of coffee as well as 2 servings of oatmeal. Used just under 2oz (volume) of DA. In my experience the starlyte stove is better in this temp than the fancee feest, as the frozen cookpot doesn't touch the stove; well it doesn't on mine ;)
That is excellent information to have! Just to know, "Hey, I need twice as much Alcohol as I do in the summer" is very helpful!
I am a little surprised because I thought it would take a lot more than that to melt snow! How many cups would you say you boiled? Two or three?
Thanks once again for this report!:) I have been too lazy to conduct any more experiments of my own.
That is excellent information to have! Just to know, "Hey, I need twice as much Alcohol as I do in the summer" is very helpful!
I am a little surprised because I thought it would take a lot more than that to melt snow! How many cups would you say you boiled? Two or three?
Thanks once again for this report!:) I have been too lazy to conduct any more experiments of my own.
I would say about 3 cups total. It was done in 2 stages. The first was for coffee, which was about 2 cups, then about a cup for the oatmeal.
White gas stoves are preferred by mountaineers for their ability to work well and melt snow efficiently in very extreme temperatures.
That's the main reason why WG is usually preferred for true winter use.
An alcohol stove (or canister stove for that matter) for a simple boil even in winter..but it will still use more fuel.
*IF* if you are melting lots of snow and/or making meals for multiple people, a WG stove is going to be more efficient and less painless to use in winter overall.
re: Idiatrod
How much fuel do they carry vs. a mountaineer/backpacker?
That's the main reason why WG is usually preferred for true winter use.
An alcohol stove (or canister stove for that matter) for a simple boil even in winter..but it will still use more fuel.
*IF* if you are melting lots of snow and/or making meals for multiple people, a WG stove is going to be more efficient and less painless to use in winter overall.
re: Idiatrod
How much fuel do they carry vs. a mountaineer/backpacker?
I read recently on an iditerod blurb that one of the reasons they switched to alcohol was for safety reasons. WG being much more flammable. The wickatized stoves will burn WG in a pinch, a little on the dirty side but in a pinch they can be used. The StarLyte would be the best choice for that because it won't spill out of the stove.
What you say is true: a white gas stove has roughly twice as much energy than alcohol stoves, but as long as you are only three or four days between resupply and choose an alcohol stove that works in cold weather, I would prefer it to the sometimes cantankerous nature of white gas stoves because of its fool-proof simplicity. Also, I much prefer the smell of alcohol over the smell of gas when I accidentally spill it while wearing my clumsy gloves.
I don't think that it is fair to compare the Iditarod stoves and the quantity of fuel the racers carry, because they have a sled to carry it all on, they have to boil several gallons of water at a time, and they have to go quite a ways between resupply.
The AT hiker goes maybe 4-5 days without resupply? He/she boils maybe two cups at a time, two meals a day. So maybe that is four fluid ounces of alcohol a day, 16 ounces for four days. 16 fluid ounces (which probably only weighs maybe 10 ounces?) plus another 3-4 ounces for the stove and windscreen, and you are still in the ballpark of the weight of most White gas stoves, right? (the whisperlight international is 11.5 ounces without gas and primer paste and the simmerlight is 8.5 ounces)
Well, since people are bringing up the Idiatrod example, I think asking much fuel they carry and the logistic support they have is a pertinent question. :)
MREs work great too..if you have the logistic support of the US military. :)
In both cases, winter backpacking/mountaineering is a different ball of wax. If I had huskies pulling my sled and a team of support, I'd take everything up to and including the kitchen sink.
Finally, as mentioned, if you have to melt a lot of snow and/or do so for many people a WG stove is gonna be great..esp for true winter conditions.
While the southern Appalachians can certainly get darn cold, it is much more mild than howling above treeline conditions you may face for mountaineering. Or even melting snow for four people at a snow cave above treeline in Colorado.
In the end? It is just a stove. Take what works. There is no best answer...
MagicCityMatt
01-26-2009, 20:06
The Penny alcohol stove performs pretty well in extreme cold because it uses its top cap as an insulating base so your heat is not all sucked away by whatever you are setting it on. Also The flame comes into direct contact with the exterior flange which is extremely efficient at transferring heat back into the fuel cup to keep it vaporizing well. I haven't tried it yet in temps like the ones mentioned in the original post of this thread but I do put a lot of faith in these things. I have not had one fail me yet.
I agree with mags though. Whatever works, you know. Experimenting is half the fun of this stuff anyways.
Homer&Marje
01-27-2009, 08:43
I will be making a large capacity stove coming up shortly. The idea came to me when we started buying this crazy imported coffee at my restaurant recently.
The canisters that the coffee come in are durable aluminum and about 9" in diameter. My idea is to make a fairly thin, but very wide stove that will hopefully run on 2 oz of fuel. Maybe 3 oz. Again "High Capacity Stove".
I plan on using the design of the pressurized pepsi can stove that I have now. I have to wait until a day that I use my car instead of bicycle to get to work, (can't fit them in my backpack, well not two of them).
I expect the finished product to look about like 2 small frizbees put together and all in all will weigh only 3-5 oz. Lets see how it goes. I will picture or video the whole process. Then we will see if it works.
And buckwheat. I know there is a difference between my pepsi can stove and an Iditarod Trail stove. Just because theres is bigger doesn't mean that's why it works in the cold. It's because they are doing something right to make it work in the cold.
I used my alchy stove 3 times at the Mt Rogers hangout last weekend:
Alchol stove (fancy feast can with about 20 holes in the sides), Jet Boil pot & lid, MSR windscreen, Water to the Jet boil fill line.
Friday 30 degrees, dinner fixed in about 7 minutes. (Tuna, couscous, soup mix)
Sat 27 degrees, Breakfast in 5 minutes (3 packs of instant grits with Peperoni bits sliced into it.)
Sun 20 degrees, Breakfast in 6 minutes (some kind of chinese soup mix)
Each time I used 1 OZ of fuel AND still had flame after I had boiling water in my food. Sat AM, enough leftover flame to heat water for a cup of hot chocolate.
Yea, alchy stoves work when it's cold!
sclittlefield
01-27-2009, 11:27
Did you have your Supercat set on anything as an insulator or was it right on the ground? Thanks for the update.
Did you have your Supercat set on anything as an insulator or was it right on the ground? Thanks for the update.
Well, I didn't set it right on the ground, but it was on a piece of aluminum. Aluminum would conduct the heat from the stove away pretty quickly. It might have been part of my problem.
Check out the second page of the thread. It has a photo of what one might expect to see inside of an Iditerod Musher Stove. Just for the heck of it.;)
http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1470
.
irt having supercat right on the ground...
i built a little docking station to sit my supercat on to keep it off the ground. kinda simple, easy to make. i found the info either here on on bpl. it serves the purpose of keeping the stove from sitting on the cold ground and also adds stability as i have a little hole drilled into the side of the dock that i drive a tent stake through... it's nice
thanks for whoever's idea it was...
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x151/wagz_pics/supercatV2010-1.jpg?t=1233093808
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x151/wagz_pics/supercatV2008.jpg?t=1233093829
MagicCityMatt
01-27-2009, 18:52
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/1/2/7/5/p1271234.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=30938&c=newimages&cutoffdate=1)
With the penny the top becomes the bottom and seals pretty well so you have a pretty nice cushion of warm air underneath.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/1/2/7/5/p1271237.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=30939&c=newimages&cutoffdate=1)
BTW: My stove was sitting directly on the picnic table at the Wise shelter, the wind was blowing across the frint of the shelter (out of the west I think) I'm guessing about 20 mph with gusts,, most of the time I stood between the wind & the stove, but not always.
I used my alchy stove 3 times at the Mt Rogers hangout last weekend:
Alchol stove (fancy feast can with about 20 holes in the sides), Jet Boil pot & lid, MSR windscreen, Water to the Jet boil fill line.
Friday 30 degrees, dinner fixed in about 7 minutes. (Tuna, couscous, soup mix)
Sat 27 degrees, Breakfast in 5 minutes (3 packs of instant grits with Peperoni bits sliced into it.)
Sun 20 degrees, Breakfast in 6 minutes (some kind of chinese soup mix)
Each time I used 1 OZ of fuel AND still had flame after I had boiling water in my food. Sat AM, enough leftover flame to heat water for a cup of hot chocolate.
Yea, alchy stoves work when it's cold!