Demise of another Outfitter!!!!!! [Archive]

View Full Version : Demise of another Outfitter!!!!!!

Toolshed

01-17-2009, 22:46

Just found out the OutdoorOutlet.com went by the wayside. This is painful because they were a great resource and a Kelty Gear Outlet.
If anyone knows of another kelty Gear Outle, please pass it along....
Thanks
'shed

woodsy

01-17-2009, 22:50

We lost a EMS store in the capital (city?) of Augusta on Jan 1st.
One left in Portland.
Pickins are gettin slim here if you want to touch/feel/try on the merchandise.

RedneckRye

01-18-2009, 11:09

Support your local independent shop.

TOW

01-18-2009, 11:35

Support your local independent shop.
don't do it, it's a conspiracy......

Wise Old Owl

01-18-2009, 11:40

While some chains are going out of business, some chains stores will have a few unprofitable stores and will never come back. It's easier to close a few stores so the rest survive. Its amazing as the high costs of leases drive the prices up on goods and they struggle to compete with the internet. Other reasons are the lease is up and they want a better location. Over the years we have seen outfitters come and go. Dicks Sporting Goods & Sport Authority is on the list of "gee I wish they would go"
These mass market chains drive low quality goods to the masses, sparking new chains, and aquisions Ace, Golf Galaxy, etc and showed their investors profits of 11 million over the holiday season by staying open all night. Just like Walmart drives all the little stores out of business - These mega stores and Walmart are death to the outfitter.

jersey joe

01-18-2009, 11:41

survival of the fittest...

coldspring

01-18-2009, 12:02

KG4FAM

01-18-2009, 12:21

uphillklimber

01-18-2009, 12:30

What is really unfortunate here is that stoes such as Sports Authority and Dick's are able to sell enough things to supply school sports and golf to keep themselves viable. How many hockey teams need to be outfitted every year? Foot ball teams? Baseball teams? Even track teams? That is a whole lot of business to cover the overhead and provide a profit (the only reason anyone stays in business, remove the profit, and the business is gone).

Now let's talk about outfitting a hiker or backpacker. The typical backpacker will have maybe 2 grand tied to his back as he hikes. How many are there spread throughout the woods in your area? And most of that gear is years old, only being replaced when it stops functioning. It never has to look good or be the latest and greatest.

This is similar to most gas stations. Few of them could survive on the gasoline sales. They need to sell snacks, beer, cigarettes and lottery tickets to keep themselves viable.

I'm not excusing what is happening, this is just the reality of it all. If you can find a store that will supply your needs, overlook the fact that they may be selling gear for other people and needs, and be thankful you have an outlet of any type near you.

gaga

01-18-2009, 12:52

survival of the fittest...

survival of the Cheapest :D

buckwheat

01-18-2009, 16:14

Its amazing as the high costs of leases drive the prices up on goods and they struggle to compete with the internet.

The cost of leases is about to go through the floor as major electronics retailers close up entire chains and lay off tens of thousands of workers. This should translate into lower costs for the outfitters located in strip malls and such.

It will be interesting to see which outfitters realize they must compete on price and pass the lease savings onto the consumer, and which outfitters go out of business because they think they can pocket the lease savings.

RedneckRye

01-19-2009, 01:19

I don't know how so many of them make it. I suppose it is mostly through the sale of expensive outdoor branded clothing, so people can publicly portray an outdoor lifestyle.

As far as gear buying goes. I'm poor, and look for the lowest price. If I want something, I can go to one of those local retailers, pay $200 retail plus sales tax, and put up with a salesman that is pushy or exaggerates the product, or I can go online and find that same item for $119, no tax, and free shipping. I don't see a lot of future for local retailers.

As a guy that has worked at a couple of small local retailers for the last decade I LOVE this attitude. Everyday I get internetted. Someone comes in, tries on a bunch of jackets for fit and asks me questions about this one versus that one versus the other one. Or tries on several boots or a bunch of packs and uses the inventory at my shop and training that my staff has to figure out what fits. Then they go home and order the same product online for a cheaper price. It gets even better when they have to come back to the shop get the pack adjusted so that it will fit right. I guess service and the ability to touch, feel and try and compare products isn't worth a few extra $$$.

You are correct about clothing keeping actual brick and mortar shops (and probably all of the internet discount sites) in business. The profit margin is better on softgoods than it is on hardgoods. Also, just about everyone needs/ wants a new fleece, set of long johns, pair of socks, ski jacket, etc every year. God bless the pink North Face Denali fleece jacket that every highs school or college girl must own. If a shop sells enough of those, then maybe they can afford to have half a dozen Western Mountaineering bags, a selection of Osprey packs, and a full set of Black Diamond cams sitting there in inventory that someone might buy. If there isn't a snow covered mountain right outside the front door of the shop in your town, it is absolutely the "selling of the outdoor lifestyle" that keeps them in business. If there is a snow covered mountain right outside the front door of the shop in your town, then it is doubly the "selling of the outdoor lifestyle" that keeps them in business. If gear shops only sold "gear" to actual backpackers or kayakers or climbers then the vast majority of them would close within a few months.

Also, as far as a lease goes, unless you are about to sign a new one they don't get cheaper. Moving to a new location for a cheaper lease if you are already an established business is a nightmare and a good way to loose the customers that may only stop in once or twice a year. They come back to the old location, it is empty, they assume that the shop has closed because of the high rent, the economy, loosing business to the internet.

Just my $.02, but since it is here in internet-land, it is only worth $.01.

Serial 07

01-19-2009, 01:28

such is the way of capitalism...

OldStormcrow

01-19-2009, 10:06

survival of the Cheapest :D

To me, shopping at an EMS or REI rather than your local outfitter is comparable to shopping at Lowes or Home Depot instead of your local hardware store. It's almost always cheaper, it's sometimes easier, and it's depressing as hell to have to.

KG4FAM

01-19-2009, 10:15

To me, shopping at an EMS or REI rather than your local outfitter is comparable to shopping at Lowes or Home Depot instead of your local hardware store. It's almost always cheaper, it's sometimes easier, and it's depressing as hell to have to.
Not really. I pay less for nuts and bolts at my local place than Lowe's. Also at REI and the local place they both sell stuff for MSRP unless they have a specific sale going on and then the sales are about the same as well. I don't mind shopping at REI because of their 100% garuntee.

snowhoe

01-19-2009, 10:30

I just dont see how any of the big store or the small shops can charge what they do for stuff. I think charging $130.00 for a fleece sweater that cost maybe $30.00 to make is not cool but what you going to do? A lot of the local fly fishing shops are going out of business here too. Ever since they put in a bass pro shop and sportsman warehouse. I go to a local fly shop and they to said its hard to compete with the big chains. They say they will buy a new fly rod from bass pro shop and then come into the small fly shop and want them to show them how to use it. Most of the time they dont charge but if you bought the equipment from someone elese they had to start charging.

mfshop

01-19-2009, 12:24

flemdawg1

01-19-2009, 13:36

I liked outdoor Outlet as well. Great deals on refurb Kelty stuff (got a $250 tent there for $99).

The Scribe

01-19-2009, 13:45

survival of the fittest...

Or in this case, "Survival of the (out)fitt(er).:D:D:D

Wise Old Owl

01-19-2009, 13:49

As a guy that has worked at a couple of small local retailers for the last decade I LOVE this attitude. Everyday I get internetted. Someone comes in, tries on a bunch of jackets for fit and asks me questions about this one versus that one versus the other one. Or tries on several boots or a bunch of packs and uses the inventory at my shop and training that my staff has to figure out what fits. Then they go home and order the same product online for a cheaper price. It gets even better when they have to come back to the shop get the pack adjusted so that it will fit right. I guess service and the ability to touch, feel and try and compare products isn't worth a few extra $$$.

You are correct about clothing keeping actual brick and mortar shops (and probably all of the internet discount sites) in business. The profit margin is better on softgoods than it is on hardgoods. Also, just about everyone needs/ wants a new fleece, set of long johns, pair of socks, ski jacket, etc every year. God bless the pink North Face Denali fleece jacket that every highs school or college girl must own. If a shop sells enough of those, then maybe they can afford to have half a dozen Western Mountaineering bags, a selection of Osprey packs, and a full set of Black Diamond cams sitting there in inventory that someone might buy. If there isn't a snow covered mountain right outside the front door of the shop in your town, it is absolutely the "selling of the outdoor lifestyle" that keeps them in business. If there is a snow covered mountain right outside the front door of the shop in your town, then it is doubly the "selling of the outdoor lifestyle" that keeps them in business. If gear shops only sold "gear" to actual backpackers or kayakers or climbers then the vast majority of them would close within a few months.

Just my $.02, but since it is here in internet-land, it is only worth $.01.

When I posted before I didn't think this would be the direction the thread would take. But you hit the lottery of observation in retail. I would spot that attitude of the internet and ask nicely, did you purchase it here (if it looked new) and follow with "Our company prides itself on supporting folk who purchase here, what else can I support you with?" They just don't get it, IF they purchase on the internet and consistently pick your brain, enthusiasm, and knowledge, you just don't need that kind of customer. :rolleyes:

UPHILLKLIMBER
Dick's sport goods is not supported by sport or school teams, although they do reach out once a year with coupons for the coaches, and scoutmasters of the team with sales packets. Dick's is supported by the Golf section #1 and Treadmills #2 and lots of Clothing, The clothing (a small portion) is marked up 40%. and covers the overhead. Mostly mom's with kids!

COLDSPRING
There are no salespeople working at REI, EMS, or your local outfitter (PERIOD) They are like you and me, they work for an hourly wage, they have enthusiasm for the sport, knowledge of their products. They do not earn commission. They are order takers, and not once in walking into hundreds of different retail stores has anyone been pushy except at a shisty diamond store where I walked out. I am more likely to walk out if I haven't been at least greeted. At EMS they used to get an "award" for selling a kayak or something, but I can guess that is gone too. Salespeople earn commission and are hit over the head with classes on product and closing the deal. Negotiation as part of the sale is frequently involved. If you ever get to sit though a Time Share experience, a five star car dealership, buying a home, Mens Wearhouse those are salespeople.

Wise Old Owl

01-19-2009, 14:14

Staying on topic - I have never heard of American Outfitter but found this page... look at the comments from the employees further down.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/altoona-pa/TII7SUMJ00OE97RNU

mtnkngxt

01-19-2009, 14:24

Thats funny I know the local outfitter I go to isn't at all like whats been depicted in this thread. The 1st few times I went in I'd ask some questions and buy something little like platypus bladders or some long underwear and parachute cord, then when I had big purchases I'd go in and they recognized me from hanging around. This kind of relationship is what has kept my family business in business for over 100 years. When you connect with people and establish a relationship when running a small business, sku numbers don't dictate price, loyalty does. When you go to a small outfitter and treat them like people and show them respect, not treat them like they are there to serve you or outfit you, you would be suprised how much you can gain from conversations. I wouldn't buy anything I can get from my local outfitter anywhere else. I'm not ashamed to say that I dropped 1000 dollars this month on gear, and only 125 of that was spent outside the shop, and that was on a jacket I found in another shop that they don't carry and some JRB hammock stuff, but once again these are small businesses. What does a few extra dollars mean, it means that when I call up and need something ordered or want to talk about an item I won't get the run around, they take the time to shoot the breeze and even suggest less expensive or other stores that might have something that would suit me better.

Your right most of us don't need someone to fit our packs for us, or suggest the best stove, or sell us on a water filter. However, I hate dealing with online stores. The little help guy on backcountry half the time is suggesting stuff that is a fortune or completely wrong when I asked if they had an item or something close to it, and steepandcheap wears on my nerves. HYOH but give some credit to the small outfitters there may be a few bad apples, but most of them are great people who you can learn alot from.

Wise Old Owl

01-19-2009, 14:45

I couldn't agree more thanks for that Mtnkngxt!

Toolshed

01-19-2009, 21:04

I worked at Dicks Almost 20 years ago before it was a large homogenized chain. It started as a True Hunting a Fishing Store (Mostly Fishing) and was built by Dick Stack and later by his son Ed (IIRC).
The true markup on Clothing was actually about 100%. It had the highest markup in the store, followed by footwear and then sporting goods. IIRC, Backwall (hunting and fishing) and camping had the lower markups.

It was after Ed sold it to a group of private investors that it became a Superstore Chainstore. I left for EMS.

ki0eh

01-19-2009, 21:33

I worked at Dicks Almost 20 years ago

Really? You must know what a spiedie is then...

LIhikers

01-19-2009, 22:37

To me, shopping at an EMS or REI rather than your local outfitter is comparable to shopping at Lowes or Home Depot instead of your local hardware store. It's almost always cheaper, it's sometimes easier, and it's depressing as hell to have to.

An EMS is the closest thing to an outfitter here on Long Island :(
When I really want to compare gear in person I have to make the trip to Campmor.

Toolshed

01-19-2009, 23:35

Really? You must know what a spiedie is then...
Of course, But we call them "Shpiedies". have an old bottle of State Fair Spiedie Sauce in the Fridge that my wife won't lt me throw out - It too, is from the home of Eureka!

ki0eh

01-20-2009, 08:49

It too, is from the home of Eureka!

... which honestly is where I would go for gear http://www.eurekacampingctr.com/eureka/text_1.asp?s_id=0 - though I migrated out of NY I still sometimes stop there on my way through.

The outfitter in Cortland closed last year and the non-chain one in Ithaca closed too. A good choice now is to take the US 15 corridor that's almost all interstate now, and to stop at Paintbrush and Blue Heron class of '02's place http://www.wildasaphoutfitters.com/

Toolshed

01-20-2009, 18:33

... which honestly is where I would go for gear http://www.eurekacampingctr.com/eureka/text_1.asp?s_id=0 - though I migrated out of NY I still sometimes stop there on my way through.

The outfitter in Cortland closed last year and the non-chain one in Ithaca closed too. A good choice now is to take the US 15 corridor that's almost all interstate now, and to stop at Paintbrush and Blue Heron class of '02's place http://www.wildasaphoutfitters.com/
I used to wander into Eureka a lot - I get in there maybe 2x per year now, but also try to place phone orders as well as talk them up here and other sites.
As for 15, we ritually take 15 now on our monthly monthly trips between Lehigh Valley and our other place near Corning. I am so grateful now that it is almost completed - the views are specatcular. A decade on 81 and 17 is just too much for anyone!!! :(

ki0eh

01-20-2009, 21:15

Well, heck you ought to stop at WAO sometime on your way through - just like Eureka, not on Sundays.

US 15's parallel trail is just about done now too: http://www.greateasterntrail.net/PA.htm

Toolshed

01-20-2009, 21:37

When I used to lead Backpack trips on the WRT/PGC, we used to camp at Asaph Wild Area campsite back in the 90's. Not too far from Chuck Dillions Pine Creek outfitters.
I will have to check out the GET at some point.

ki0eh

01-20-2009, 21:49

Chuck's still there too. There's a picture of me in his latest edition Pine Creek Gorge coffee table book!

Wise Old Owl

01-20-2009, 21:52

Thanks Toolshed, my 6 month stint a Dicks was 4-5 years ago and it was misarable, the investors are doing their worst.