View Full Version : Will I really need a "Synthetic or Down Jacket" ?
Madd Foxx
01-23-2009, 00:49
As I begin to assemble and purchase gear for my up-coming thru hike of the AT, I have read on a few recommended gear lists that I should have a “down jacket”. Being from Florida and never having a reason to purchase one, I am unsure of its advantages and quite frankly its proper usage.
With midweight long underwear, a shirt, a soft shell jacket , and a rain jacket – wouldn’t that be adequate? If not, when would I be utilizing the down jacket?
Thanks to anyone who suffers this poor Floridian and answers!
garlic08
01-23-2009, 01:15
I was in the same conundrum last year as I packed for my AT hike, which I didn't start until April. I probably could have survived without the 10 oz down vest I packed at the last minute, but I was glad I had it several times. I hiked through two mean winter storms in April, temps below 20F, high winds, substantial snow. The extra down garment gave me a better sleep on several nights, too. The weather is a crapshoot; '09 might be mild and you won't need a jacket. I was really glad I had mine. I also saw it as a backup in case my sleeping bag got compromised.
Lone Wolf
01-23-2009, 01:15
i've never owned a down jacket. no. you don't need one
Madd Foxx
01-23-2009, 01:21
Garlic 08, Lone Wolf
Thanks for the timely and informative reply.
As I begin to assemble and purchase gear for my up-coming thru hike of the AT, I have read on a few recommended gear lists that I should have a “down jacket”. Being from Florida and never having a reason to purchase one, I am unsure of its advantages and quite frankly its proper usage.
With midweight long underwear, a shirt, a soft shell jacket , and a rain jacket – wouldn’t that be adequate? If not, when would I be utilizing the down jacket?
Thanks to anyone who suffers this poor Floridian and answers!
The advantage of a down jacket is that it keeps you warm during winter-like storms that occur during the winter months December through March. There are other ways to keep warm, heavy fleece jackets, multiple layers of fleece, wind break jacket....
I carried a down jacket because it felt so nice in the chill that sets in after long hours of heavy exercise. And because it made it possible to carry a much lighter sleeping bag.
Some avoid a down jacket because they don't mind crawling into their sleeping bags as soon as reaching camp. I liked to look around a bit and relax before crawling in my tent or shelter. Cooking supper laying on your stomack is also a bit of a pain.
Weary
knicksin2010
01-23-2009, 02:12
When hiking in extremely cold temperatures it’s important to maintain a consistent temperature. While you wouldn’t be hiking in the down jacket, you could pull it out and use it if you wanted to take a break on a peak or ridge to eat some snacks and take some pictures. It could also provide some mobility in camp and packs well.
Do you really need it? No, but I’m not used to Florida weather. I thought it was dead weight on Mt. Rainier, even during a crazy storm.
your question is best answered by what time of year/weather you are hiking in???
w/ my midweight layer, a t-shirt, fleece, rain/windjacket and down vest i'm comfy till about 15*
w/o the vest i'm comfy to the mid/low 20's
They make very little sense above 0F. They are strictly fashion. Wool and fleece layers provide as much warmth and more flexibility for the same weight. If you need more volume, get a light pack with more volume, or keep your wool sweater on.
daddytwosticks
01-23-2009, 08:49
A 200wt fleece sweater/jacket or something like the Thermawrap jacket would probably be good insurance.
They make very little sense above 0F. They are strictly fashion. Wool and fleece layers provide as much warmth and more flexibility for the same weight. If you need more volume, get a light pack with more volume, or keep your wool sweater on.
I agree with the more flexability part, but have to disagree with the "as much warmth for same weight. Is there anything as warm as quality down for the same weight? Just a quick comare i've got the 300 weight north face fleece jacket that weighs in at around 28 ounces and my down jacket is around 20 ounces. Now i havn't really been in too many situations where i would rather have the fleece over the down. The down packs up smaller, is half a pound lighter and a bunch warmer. I was out two weeks ago, temps in the low 20s. I wore a midweight longsleeve, a mid layer of patagonia fleece and my marmot softshell. When moving i was very comfy, when i stopped for lunch and snacks it was nice to pull the down jacket out and burrow down into it. Now if i was planning a through hike i think i'd switch the down for primaloft of something that would keep me warm even if it got wet. but ounce for ounce nothing beats down.
mister krabs
01-23-2009, 09:51
I also like to hang around in the evening and don't like to jump right into my bag.
Where's Mags to boilerplate the M-65 field jacket liner for us?
I like my field jacket liner, it's cheap ~14$, light (10oz) warm insurance and packs into the smallest walmart dry sack 122 c.i.
It pack it along with a packable shell pretty much every time I plan on being outside for any length of time.
check on the down sweater. It's a perfect solution to wear under an outer layer. Its less than 7 oz. You can sleep in it to extend the range of your sleeping bag.
For insurance, I don't know how you could go wrong by carrying it. Its versatile, its incredibly warm and its fashionable... best wishes
If you use a down jacket at all, it would be at end of day when you are in camp.
My rec. would be to not use a down jacket at all. Go with fleece instead! Fleece keeps you warm, dries quick, and still keeps you warm if it gets damp.
Of course, question is when will you be starting from springer Mountain? If going Mid March or earlier, a light down jacket might be nice for camp. Late March or later just bring fleece and a good wind breaker/rain jacket. It might get cold at night (teens) but it warms up during the day usually to 60's or better. Besides the very act of walking over the mountains will keep you warm.
David
I started 3/1 last year and saw the full gammot of weather by 4/15. For warmth on very cold days in the teens and 20's I carried a polyester filled insulated underwear top which I have used for years hunting. It can't weighs about 4-5 ounces. On cold days I wore this over my long sleeve capilene pull over shirt. On top of this I wore my most important piece of warm gear, a very thin, light weight camo wind/rain top which I purchased from Cabelas. It cut out all wind chill which you have to do if you want to stay warm.
Fleece is a great under layer but doesn't cut the wind. It feels to me that it actually accelerates it. Just joking.
Happy hiking. :sun
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 10:10
Here is the best kept secret in the gear world because it would ruin a good deal of gear manufacturers if everyone knew how well it worked:
The field jacket liner.
http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?engine=froogle&productID=944
At a local surplus store you can get one for about $10-$20. They weigh about 12oz for a medium/Large size. I used one on the AT/BMT starting in January as my camp layer. You are probably going to hike in a t-shirt or at most a light fleece. But when you get to camp you can throw this on and then cover it with your rain jacket you will probably already be carrying and now you have a wind breaking jacket with lots of loft. I have used one for years and find it to be warmer than the same weight in fleece.
check on the down sweater. It's a perfect solution to wear under an outer layer. Its less than 7 oz. You can sleep in it to extend the range of your sleeping bag.
For insurance, I don't know how you could go wrong by carrying it. Its versatile, its incredibly warm and its fashionable... best wishesI'm just being difficult, but...
IF YOU CAN"T SWEAT IN IT IT AINT A SWEATER.
lol
To compare fleece and wool to something like a down jacket you have to compare all the clothing you are carrying, not just what you might be wearing in one situation. You can hike in a wool sweater, and when you stop you only need to add a wind layer. On a particularly cold windy stretch you can get away with wearing the wind layer over the sweater, as it has a great capacity for absorbing and recovering heat from body moisture, and it will dry out simply by remove the wind layer now and then. On warm days you can not wear your base layer underneath, or hiking in short. The wool sweater takes up no room in the pack because its never there. For camp you through on fleece pants and a wind jacket, and maybe wind pants or rain pants if needed. When you look at your total system you are most often further ahead with a simple layering system of skin layers, wool sweater, fleece pants, and light shells, hats, and mitts. Depends on how cold it might get, but if you also want to be able to hike in cold rain, you should have plenty of layers for extreme cold. The down jacket become superfluous, unless you get down below 0F. Then things get interesting, but I don't think this thread is about that.
Merchandizers like puffy down jackets, just like they like Far West type jackets.
You can make them cheap and sell them for lots. But you are better off with cheap light shells and maybe getting a nice old lady to knit a really good wool sweater. One set of classic fleece is a good investment. If you can find cheap light shells, expensive light shells will do. Skin layers can be silk or poly or wool. It's nice to try them all. I don't like shiny spandexy body armour type skin layers. They are pointless. I would like to try something like that field jacket liner, but as a long overcoat, for wearing over all my other layers on a long slow trudge or in camp at 0F. For $20 I will get one at our Army Surplus when I see one and try it out, and then imagine what it might be like as a long overcoat. Might work as an overquilt also. If there is no risk of temperatures below 0F I can leave it home.
Here is the best kept secret in the gear world because it would ruin a good deal of gear manufacturers if everyone knew how well it worked:
The field jacket liner.
http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?engine=froogle&productID=944
At a local surplus store you can get one for about $10-$20. They weigh about 12oz for a medium/Large size. I used one on the AT/BMT starting in January as my camp layer. You are probably going to hike in a t-shirt or at most a light fleece. But when you get to camp you can throw this on and then cover it with your rain jacket you will probably already be carrying and now you have a wind breaking jacket with lots of loft. I have used one for years and find it to be warmer than the same weight in fleece.
I just checked the website and the price including shipping is $28. Would you happen to know if the army surplus store located west of Knoxville on I-40 carries them? Thanks.
P.S. Did you every see the field jacket liner like we used in the 1960's? It was heavy and didn't help much. I always stayed cold in mine. The parka with liner worked well.
Here is the best kept secret in the gear world because it would ruin a good deal of gear manufacturers if everyone knew how well it worked:
The field jacket liner.
http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?engine=froogle&productID=944
At a local surplus store you can get one for about $10-$20. They weigh about 12oz for a medium/Large size. I used one on the AT/BMT starting in January as my camp layer. You are probably going to hike in a t-shirt or at most a light fleece. But when you get to camp you can throw this on and then cover it with your rain jacket you will probably already be carrying and now you have a wind breaking jacket with lots of loft. I have used one for years and find it to be warmer than the same weight in fleece.
Forgot to mention, I enjoyed reading your journal entries and your photos from you January hike last winter.
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 12:14
There is a surplus store on US129 Alcoa, TN that has them. I'm not sure of anything west of the interstate. They are sort of a dump, but you can generally find these here for not too much. It's south on 129 about 8 miles from I40. Do you plan on going through Knoxville?
I have seen the old liners, some sort of heavy thing that din't look warm at all.
There is a surplus store on US129 Alcoa, TN that has them. I'm not sure of anything west of the interstate. They are sort of a dump, but you can generally find these here for not too much. It's south on 129 about 8 miles from I40. Do you plan on going through Knoxville?
I have seen the old liners, some sort of heavy thing that din't look warm at all.
My wife and I will be in the Alcoa area, (we like eating at Up The Creek) within the next 2-3 weeks. We always stop in at LR Trading in Maryville to pick up something even though I may not "need" it. Thanks for directions to the AS store in your area. Hope to catch up with you some time.
Happy hiking. :sun
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 12:44
I tell you what brother man. Tomorrow if I ain't got nothing planned I'll go check at the surplus store and see if I can talk them out of one cheap, let me know what your size is. Then I think we could hook up when you get through here. I live about 5 miles from Little River.
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 12:45
Oh, and Up the Creek in Alcoa closed
Are they the same nylon shell on the inside as on the outside? My guess is about 3.5oz outer shell + 5oz fill + 3.5oz inner shell, or is the inner shell of something lighter? The thing I like about these, besides the price, is that you wouldn't need a wind shell, so your really only adding 1 extra shell not 2. Also there is some function to the inner shell, because the whole thing is rigid enough that I can see how it might create some extra loft underneath it, say over a knit wool sweater, rather than relying on the wool to create its own loft and puff out the wind shell. Also, a light 3-4oz wind shell is usually enough, but doesn't keep all the wind out when its really wicked windy. I would still like to try something of this construction as a light long overcoat,
but I will try the army surplus jacket first to get an idea of how it performs. I would imagine it performs ok when wet, and dries out reasonably well.
This would be an interesting comparison, for 0F to 30F conditions, with some wet days, some windy days, and some wet followed by really cold days.
4oz skin layer of choice
12-20-32oz wool sweater (depending on climate)
10oz 100wt classic fleece
4oz nylon wind layer
rain shell of choice
vs
4oz skin layer
12-20-32oz wool sweater (depending on climate)
14oz field jacket liner (in bigger size to fit over other layers)
rain shell of choice
I think both systems might perform more or less equally, in terms of performance and versatility. On warmer days you could hike in just sweater and shorts without anything under the sweater. With the first system, when it gets cold or windy or you stop you could use either the fleece or the wind layer or both, but the second system might be warmer when you really need it, and versatile enough.
It would be neat though, to take the 14oz field jacket liners construction, and extend it down to a knee length 20oz overcoat, for cold trudging, cold camping, and perhaps as a overquilt over a 10F sleeping bag for 0F. You might have to DIY it from scratch, or you could mock something up out of two field jacket liners first, to see how it worked. If DIY from scratch you could try something like nylon on the outside, synthetic fill, and maybe silk on the inside. If the field jacket liner got damp and frozen, you might be able to thaw and dry it out by hiking with it on under the wool sweater. If it was silk liner on one side and nylon shell on the other you might wear it reversed when you wanted to dry it out.
A nice feature sometimes for your outermost insulating layer and shell is if they are big enough to stretch over you knees when squatting down. This works better with pullovers because its tough on zippers. This worked much better when I was younger and didn't have so much in the way, but it is still possible, at least in theory. The other thing I like about pullovers is they can have a pouch, which is better for warming up you hands and carrying stuff like lighters and overmitts and even a hot beverage. They sag down when full but the waist strap can help keep them up.
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 13:03
It would be neat though, to take the 14oz field jacket liners construction, and extend it down to a knee length 20oz overcoat, for cold trudging, cold camping, and perhaps as a overquilt over a 10F sleeping bag for 0F.
Not as long as you are talking about, but a little longer.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Military-Surplus-Army-Night-Parka-Liner-Size-Med_W0QQitemZ310090586859QQcmdZViewItem
Basically the parker liner and the field jacket liner are the same thing with a couple of modifications:
Field jacket liner - slightle shorter liner. It extends to about groin level. The sleeves do not go all the way to your wrist, and there are vent holes in the pits. Basically it is ment to be used in cold conditions where you don't want to overheat while doing stuff.
Parka Liner - a couple of inches more length. No pit holes, and the sleves go down further. This one also had pocket holes so you can reach through the parka shell into the pockets of your uniform. I've got one of these somewhere too.
The size to weight is a little more for the parka liner and it would tend to stick out from under many hiker style rain jackets. I have a field jacket liner I don't wear anymore because I outgrew it - but on that one I extended the arms a little and sewed the pit holes shut.
$9.65 shipped. He has 5 available. If you scroll down he's updated it saying he does have size large. You're welcome :) http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Army-Issue-M-65-Winter-Jacket-Liner-Used_W0QQitemZ380083914787QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item380083914787&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1240%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Thanks Rock. Good to know. I'll see if these ever come in to our local army surplus.
Check out this thread here on WB. A thermwrap clone for $20 (and some elbow grease):
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41034
You can get the liners cheap here $10 (and liner pants, too):
http://www.rddusa.com/U-S-G-I-M-65-Jacket-Liner-Military-Army-Liners-Army-Clothing-Military-Gear-Camouflage-Clothing-Military-Surplus-Army-Navy-Surplus-Vintage-Urban-Wear-Out-Wear-Us-Gi.html
I tell you what brother man. Tomorrow if I ain't got nothing planned I'll go check at the surplus store and see if I can talk them out of one cheap, let me know what your size is. Then I think we could hook up when you get through here. I live about 5 miles from Little River.
I can't thank you enough! I wear a large. I will definitely try to hook up with you. I'll send you a PM when we have it scheduled. Great.
Too bad about Up The Creek. My wife will be heart broken.
Blissful
01-23-2009, 16:26
My son had a synthetic jacket and did good with it. Used it all the time. I had down because I am cold blooded and had it 'til May.
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 19:52
I can't thank you enough! I wear a large. I will definitely try to hook up with you. I'll send you a PM when we have it scheduled. Great.
Too bad about Up The Creek. My wife will be heart broken.I'll try and get over there tomorrow.
SGT ROCK,
Does the liner you wear have the modifications (sewn closed pits and a zipper) or is it stock?
Thanks
Grinder
SGT Rock
01-23-2009, 20:51
The one I used on the trail last year was stock. I tried a thinsulate one to save some weight - they SUCK. Do not get a thinsulate version.
Check out this thread here on WB. A thermwrap clone for $20 (and some elbow grease):
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41034
You can get the liners cheap here $10 (and liner pants, too):
http://www.rddusa.com/U-S-G-I-M-65-Jacket-Liner-Military-Army-Liners-Army-Clothing-Military-Gear-Camouflage-Clothing-Military-Surplus-Army-Navy-Surplus-Vintage-Urban-Wear-Out-Wear-Us-Gi.html
I think I'd miss having a full zip and a collar to keep drafts out. Since I already have a synth. jacket (Golite something or other with Polarguard insulation, 1#4oz.), with those features, as well as a lightweight fleece jacket (14 oz.) which I can wear to bed and around camp with or without a nylon shell (6oz w/hood), it isn't a consideration.
Rock, have you had days when you wished for those features in the jacket liner? When I was a kid (1960's) my folks bought us quilted poly filled sleepwear which could be zipped up and had collars. I wonder if such stuff is still made. I haven't checked around lately.
Any way you look at it, though, you can't beat the price for the jacket liner (unless you do some Goodwill hunting).
SGT Rock
01-24-2009, 11:42
I think I'd miss having a full zip and a collar to keep drafts out. Since I already have a synth. jacket (Golite something or other with Polarguard insulation, 1#4oz.), with those features, as well as a lightweight fleece jacket which I can wear to bed and around camp with or without a nylon shell (6oz w/hood), it isn't a consideration.
Rock, have you had days when you wished for those features in the jacket liner? When I was a kid (1960's) my folks bought us quilted poly filled sleepwear which could be zipped up and had collars. I wonder if such stuff is still made. I haven't checked around lately.
Any way you look at it, though, you can't beat the price for the jacket liner (unless you do some Goodwill hunting).
Well not really. My clothing is a system. I've got a polartec powerstretch top I wear like long underwear when sleeping and in camp, it has a neck. I have a fleece polypro neck gaiter or to keep my neck warm when I need it. And I have my rain jacket I am already carrying. All that works together when you add that liner as a middle layer between the light fleece and the rain jacket.
And here is the kicker to all that... I had a pullover like you are talking about. A homemade Kennebec pullover. I think I may have put it on about 3 times in 3 months. It was the planned insulation layer for that purpose, and the field jacket liner was an afterthought throw in on day 1 because it was 18F when I left the house (and still was when I got on Springer). After all that planning and getting "just the right gear" I still ended up with a field jacket liner.
All that said I now have a WM down jacket I am going to try using instead, but I have this feeling I may end up back in my field jacket liner again.
My clothing is a system.
Like my brain, my system is better. Hardly been used. ;)
They make very little sense above 0F. They are strictly fashion. Wool and fleece layers provide as much warmth and more flexibility for the same weight. If you need more volume, get a light pack with more volume, or keep your wool sweater on.
My two down jackets aren't very fashionable. One is 40 years old, the second is 25 or 30. Both are so tattered that I don't dare to wash them for fear of losing the remaining down, and clogging my drains. One was purchased tattered at an LL Bean warehouse sale. Some clerk had sliced the rip stop nylon with a razor while opening a box. I have to keep duct tape over the hole.
But they sure do feel nice when it gets cold on the trail or at home on the Maine coast.
Weary
LL Bean down jackets on sale, web site, $49. $25 at the outlet. Who knows what they might be at the employee store.
Don't know how I'll get along with down, I have a quilted jacket, $9, that I can't kill, and don't mind sliming it.
SGT Rock
01-24-2009, 15:09
I can't thank you enough! I wear a large. I will definitely try to hook up with you. I'll send you a PM when we have it scheduled. Great.
Too bad about Up The Creek. My wife will be heart broken.
The best price I can get is $20 for a large, brand new, never been used liner. Let me know if you want it.
Any way you look at it, though, you can't beat the price for the jacket liner (unless you do some Goodwill hunting).
You bring up some good points. But, you can remedy all of that with a light wt. polypro balaclava. I have one that is just over an ounce. It is my head gear of choice due to its versatility. Couple the dirtbag thermawrap with the balaclava, and you have a nice system for all kinds of conditions.
(BTW..love your "Goodwill hunting" pun! :) )
Thanks. I'm always starved for positive affirmation!
Thanks. I'm always starved for positive affirmation!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvgMIerTXl4
Well not really. My clothing is a system. I've got a polartec powerstretch top I wear like long underwear when sleeping and in camp, it has a neck. I have a fleece polypro neck gaiter or to keep my neck warm when I need it. And I have my rain jacket I am already carrying. All that works together when you add that liner as a middle layer between the light fleece and the rain jacket.
And here is the kicker to all that... I had a pullover like you are talking about. A homemade Kennebec pullover. I think I may have put it on about 3 times in 3 months. It was the planned insulation layer for that purpose, and the field jacket liner was an afterthought throw in on day 1 because it was 18F when I left the house (and still was when I got on Springer). After all that planning and getting "just the right gear" I still ended up with a field jacket liner.
All that said I now have a WM down jacket I am going to try using instead, but I have this feeling I may end up back in my field jacket liner again.
Rock, I didn't mention anything about a pullover. Imo, an insulating layer is severely limited in its flexibility if it has a partial zipper. Even my windbreaker (Marmot Ion) has a full zip to instantly deal with increases and decreases in body and environmental temperatures. My question, reworded, basically, is, "Do you get drafts through the button down front?" My opinion hasn't changed, though, I think the liner is a great "bang for the buck" item.
New users to Down clothing and sleeping gear should be aware that down items have synthetic shells and, should they get damp or wet, care should be taken drying them near a fire. If the shell melts, the down will find its way out the smallest hole. Synthetic garments are much more forgiving in this respect. That's why, except in the dead of winter, when liquid water is a rarity except in my cookpot or under the ice, I use synthetic or wool insulation in clothing rather than down. I wrap my sleeping bag so well that getting it wet while in the pack is nearly an impossibility.
SGT Rock
01-24-2009, 17:25
Rock, I didn't mention anything about a pullover. Imo, an insulating layer is severely limited in its flexibility if it has a partial zipper. Even my windbreaker (Marmot Ion) has a full zip to instantly deal with increases and decreases in body and environmental temperatures. My question, reworded, basically, is, "Do you get drafts through the button down front?" My opinion hasn't changed, though, I think the liner is a great "bang for the buck" item.
No - I tuck the tails into my pants.
I think I mentioned a pullover as being prefered.
It allows for a pouch, which is better than pockets especially in winter.
It also makes it easier to stretch over the knees without risk of breaking the zipper.
Regarding other variations...
I have a silk layer thats a turtleneck, which I like for it, but don't otherwise like turtlenecks.
I have long wool underwear trap door type which is good in winter to have one layer not tight at the waist.
My sweaters are always pullovers, though some light ones a zip neck which is handy.
I like my fleece 1/4 zip and fit over my sweater, and 200wt with a pouch for winter.
My wind layer is also a 1/4 zip pullover.
I have a heavy oversized Helly Hansen full-zipped fleece jacket with hood I have found very useful this winter. It doesn't fit over my knees, as I would like it to, but it has a bit of that windstopper finish which saves me from using the windjacket, which helps keep all my layers dry. The windshell is very light but does seem to ice up when its really cold. I am not a convert to the cotton anorack crowd for below 0F, though I see it has merit. I just get too much wet 20F to 35F to go with the 0F.
I do have a very heavy down parka, with a full zip, and the pockets work fine with that. It is definitely not what I would call packable, but it would be useable with a toboggan.
I rediscovered blousing this year. :)
If you blouse up 200wt pant legs you can keep them on longer, which can give you a chance to dry them out also, and if you have long wool socks it might help expose the socks to dry them out also, with some wicking action up from the foot. I'm not sure if the wicking action would actually work up from the foot. Might depend on how tight the shoes or boots or mukluks were. You can blouse sleeves also. An elastic cuff works best, but if you want to blouse a ankle all the way up to above the knee it needs to be pretty stretch and a wide elastic so as to be comfortable. You pull it up inside and then let it all flap outside and you get some good airflow to the extremities while keeping heat at the core. Its just another think to try that might work sometimes.
I've gotten to like my 200wt fleece pants more and more my wool sweater and have stopped looking for wool hiking pants. Maybe now I will find a pair I like. :)
Jak: I imagine it must be so cold up in New Brunswick that you don't need to ventilate to control body temperature? In the dead of winter on a dog sled or snowmobile, maybe, but hiking starting March from Georgia is a different story. Getting too hot and sweaty while hiking is asking for trouble.
I've never broken a zipper on a garment. Worn them out on garments and tents, but can't imagine breaking one (without trying).
Pulling your knees up into your garment - when, why? If I get that cold I pull out my sleeping bag.
Are you talking about a survival situation? An upper body garment that you can pull your knees up into would require extra fabric and weight while allowing unwanted airflow up under it in blowing conditions, wouldn't it? I imagine you'd at least like to have a draw cord around the waist to cinch whenever your knees were down below your waist, wouldn't you?
I'd never considered blousing. I'll have to look more closely at that.
We still ventilate in winter, but not by unzippering. It isn't just sweat, but even when your just standing around the vapour from your skin can build up in your clothes, especially when it is cold enough that the freezing point is somewhere within your layers. By and large however, if you where some wool, you should have a great capacity to absorb moisture without it doing harm, and sufficient opportunity for your clothes to dry out. The relative humidity is high in the woods, but when the sun is out it goes down during the day. To dry clothes out without resorting to fire I find its simply a matter of removing your skin layers out from underneath, as these dry out fine on their own, and to remove you wind layers, and then hike while letting the wind blow through your clothing. The fleece I can also remove, as even 200wt fleece can dry well enough on its own if its any good, and you can beat the ice out of it if frozen. The only thing that really needs to be left on is your wool sweater, and if its the right weight of sweater it is never to thick to be worn if you just wear it and shorts if you need to. I do wear my windshell while hiking sometimes, but it comes off as soon as it can.
I would be surprised you've never pulled your sweater or pullover over your knees as a kid, listening to campfire stories, looking out on the ocean, watching fireworks. What kid hasn't. I think we just forget such things as we grown old.
The only times I've gotten soaking we has been falling into water, or in heavy rain. I've gotten my back wet from sweat while hiking, but nothing I couldn't deal with. You can get soaked in winter though, and rain or a fall through ice can be followed by subzero, so its best to be prepared for that sort of thing. For that I think a combination of wool and fleece is best, and only light shells, not heavy shells. Zippers are handy, but with a light shell its easier to just take it off and stuff it in your pocket. If I had a really decent rain coat though, instead of a poncho, I think it would be zippered. Zipper on my heavy down parka also, but I don't take that on long winter trips because its not packable, and not as good if it got soaked, which can happen.