Lyme disease

[Coyote918]

I recently attended a thru hike clinic at REI. The man who gave the class said that one of his biggest fears on the trail was lyme disease because he said that towards the end of his hike that people were "dropping like flies" with the disease. This terrifies me because I knew someone who got the disease and took four years to recover, and it was agonizing. Can anyone give there opinion on this subject? Tips on how to avoid it? Anything?

[mudhead]

While you are waiting for solid replies, try the search function, "lyme" should get you some reading. Pretty easy to pick out the medical pro opinions in among the chaff. I dislike ticks. Even big ones that I can see.

[emerald]

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/Lyme/

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/lymedisease.html

[ChinMusic]

I recently attended a thru hike clinic at REI. The man who gave the class said that one of his biggest fears on the trail was lyme disease because he said that towards the end of his hike that people were "dropping like flies" with the disease. This terrifies me because I knew someone who got the disease and took four years to recover, and it was agonizing. Can anyone give there opinion on this subject? Tips on how to avoid it? Anything?
I hope this class discussed the benefits of treating your clothing with permethrin.

[cowboy nichols]

He isn't kidding. I got lyme disease a year ago and I'm still not 100% I was careless because I was walking in the city and didn't realise that lyme is very prevalent in Florida. Take all of the above advice and never think there aren't ticks around.

[mountain squid]

Tips on how to avoid it? Anything?If you spend time in the woods you will see ticks. Check yourself frequently to minimize the risk. If you do see the 'red bullseye' get checked out as soon as possible.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

[Jorel]

Ex Officio has a Buzz Off line of clothing. Claims to work after lots of washings. Anyone use these?

[nufsaid]

Ex Officio has a Buzz Off line of clothing. Claims to work after lots of washings. Anyone use these?

You get the same benefit with permethrin, just look at the label on the Buzz Off clothes. Same thing. Permethrin really is some good stuff.

[ChinMusic]

Ex Officio has a Buzz Off line of clothing. Claims to work after lots of washings. Anyone use these?
Don't buy Ex Officio for the bug protection. Only buy that brand if you like the product for other reasons.

Buy what you want and THEN treat those clothes with permethrin during bug season.

[Desert Reprobate]

How much permethrin do you add to the wash to make the clothing tick resistant? Does it help with the skeeters?

[Tinker]

I've never had a tick on me (to my knowledge) since I started using Permethrin (can't use it on bare skin, only clothing - once it's dry, clothing can be put on with no ill effects). When hiking in shorts, Permethrin on socks and deet on bare skin (or bug clothing, which I wear, and get ribbed for :D) should be all you need. It never hurts to have a fellow hiker check you over for ticks after passing through high grass, brushing through shrubbery, etc. (another thing I sometimes get ribbed for) - better safe than sorry. I don't use shelters for sleeping, normally, and I personally believe that ticks are just as likely to crawl off of a white-footed mouse (major carrier of ixodes scapularis, or deer tick) and onto a sleeping hiker's head (since it's right at floor level) as to ambush you from a plant along the trail. I wonder if anyone's done a survey of AT hikers to determine what percentage of Lyme victims sleep in shelters vs. sleep in tents, hammocks, etc. Remember, I'm OVERLY concerned about this topic (so some say). ;)

[take-a-knee]

How much permethrin do you add to the wash to make the clothing tick resistant? Does it help with the skeeters?

Just spray it with the can until it is wet/soaked, hang dry, wash once and wear. The army says it is good for five washings on a cotton uniform, I suspect fewer on nylon/synthetics (I have no data to prove this). I works great against skeeters, I treat my hammock with it and I've never been bitter through it, even on a canoe trip in the Okefenokee Swamp.

You can also buy the permethrin concentrate (you'll have to look up the dilution factor),mix it in a 2-gallon sprayer, fold your clothing and place it into a 2 gallon ziploc, and pour the permethrin solution into the bag and let it "cook" over night. You'll get a longer lasting residual that way.

[Tinker]

How much permethrin do you add to the wash to make the clothing tick resistant? Does it help with the skeeters?

You spray it on after washing and drying. It definitely helps with skeeters, and permethrin lasts for two weeks or more - in fact, the manufacturers recommend that you don't reapply it to clothing before washing it again.

[ChinMusic]

How much permethrin do you add to the wash to make the clothing tick resistant? Does it help with the skeeters?
You spray/soak your clothes (NOT on you, keep the liquid off your skin as well), let them dry, and wear them. The stuff does not go in the wash for treatment.

The clothes will retain the protection for a month or so with weekly washings. I would prob retreat 3-4 weeks on a thru just to be on the safe side (LOTS of sweating).

Most def helps with skeeters. Spray it on your tent before the trip, especially the opening. Regarding ticks, I have never had a tick LIVE on me when wearing permethrin-treated clothing.....YMMV.

[take-a-knee]

I've never had a tick on me (to my knowledge) since I started using Permethrin (can't use it on bare skin, only clothing - once it's dry, clothing can be put on with no ill effects). When hiking in shorts, Permethrin on socks and deet on bare skin (or bug clothing, which I wear, and get ribbed for :D) should be all you need. It never hurts to have a fellow hiker check you over for ticks after passing through high grass, brushing through shrubbery, etc. (another thing I sometimes get ribbed for) - better safe than sorry. I don't use shelters for sleeping, normally, and I personally believe that ticks are just as likely to crawl off of a white-footed mouse (major carrier of ixodes scapularis, or deer tick) and onto a sleeping hiker's head (since it's right at floor level) as to ambush you from a plant along the trail. I wonder if anyone's done a survey of AT hikers to determine what percentage of Lyme victims sleep in shelters vs. sleep in tents, hammocks, etc. Remember, I'm OVERLY concerned about this topic (so some say). ;)

I treated my daughter's nylon pants with the spray last year and she still got a tick (on the approach trail) as we finished up GA last June. Nothing is foolproof. In the army we used to tuck our pants inside our boots for this reason.

[mudhead]

and I personally believe that ticks are just as likely to crawl off of a white-footed mouse (major carrier of ixodes scapularis, or deer tick) and onto a sleeping hiker's head (since it's right at floor level) as to ambush you from a plant along the trail. I wonder if anyone's done a survey of AT hikers to determine what percentage of Lyme victims sleep in shelters vs. sleep in tents, hammocks, etc. Remember, I'm OVERLY concerned about this topic (so some say). ;)

That would be really interesting if someone stumbles across a study.

[Wise Old Owl]

It is sad to say this story "looks" to be true. Unfortunatly I have a overworked, underpaid, lack of empathy, jerk of a doctor I have to stick with.

If this happens to you make sure you take pictures with your camera phone and be able to replay for your doctor so you arn't dismissed.

[Blissful]

This is a good reminder, thanks. I need to do this with my convertible pants and my socks, the ticks in SNP are very bad. Can we get this stuff anywhere, I guess (the concentrate is what I'm interested in)?

[garlic08]

I wore long trousers treated with Permethrin on the AT last year and never pulled off a single tick. I also used Permethrin as mosquito repellent on the PCT and it worked well there, too. I haven't used DEET since I started using Permethrin. I get it from Campmor in spray bottles good for two sets of clothing. I ship it to myself in one-month intervals during hiking season.

[Blissful]

I'd assume this kind of treatment is also good for black fly season - like in Maine, etc?

[karoberts]

I had Lyme Disease, not on the trail, just at home. It wasn't a big deal. I took antibiotics for six weeks and was fine.

Many people who have it never experience any symptoms or get any treatment. For the overwhelming majority of cases, Lyme disease is self-limiting with no treatment. That means that most people completely recover on their own, with no medication.

Another fact is that Lyme disease is difficult to diagnose. There isn't one blood test that gives a definite diagnosis. For most, it is diagnosed based on a collection of symptoms in addition to the rash. So it is possible (probable) that those hikers "dropping like flies" were just tired, worn-out, trail-weary, malnourished, etc. All things that can look like Lyme disease.

I wouldn't stress about it. It sounds like fear-mongering to me. Just be aware and take care of your body.

[ChinMusic]

I wouldn't stress about it. It sounds like fear-mongering to me. Just be aware and take care of your body.
Stress? Nah, just prepare as best you can. Just be as vigilant as you can.

Fear-mongering? Disregard Lyme at your own risk, I won't. Lyme is serious stuff.

[skinewmexico]

I used to disregard Lyme. Girl I went to high school with didn't know she had it, until her heart attack. Now several discs have gone bad in her back, and 4 in her neck.

[Quoddy]

Many people think that once the Lyme's is knocked down by antibiotics all will be OK. The Lyme's stays dormant in the body most of the time, but can flair back up without any further bites. Since my original bite/breakout in 2005 I've had two subsequent bouts, the last of which lasted the entire summer of 2008, even though I was on Doxicilin for 10 weeks. Each bout has left it's mark with an additional physical problem of some sort. Yes, Lyme's is serious stuff.

[emerald]

Click on Lab Tests Online (http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/conditions/lyme.html) for information provided by American Association for Clinical Chemistry.

The LTO Lyme pages are linked from the MedlinePlus page mentioned in post #3. I'm linking it again directly for those for those who may have missed it or may be looking for this specific information.

[Kanati]

I had Lyme Disease, not on the trail, just at home. It wasn't a big deal. I took antibiotics for six weeks and was fine.

Many people who have it never experience any symptoms or get any treatment. For the overwhelming majority of cases, Lyme disease is self-limiting with no treatment. That means that most people completely recover on their own, with no medication.

Another fact is that Lyme disease is difficult to diagnose. There isn't one blood test that gives a definite diagnosis. For most, it is diagnosed based on a collection of symptoms in addition to the rash. So it is possible (probable) that those hikers "dropping like flies" were just tired, worn-out, trail-weary, malnourished, etc. All things that can look like Lyme disease.

I wouldn't stress about it. It sounds like fear-mongering to me. Just be aware and take care of your body.

I took a fever and achiness in VT last year so I took vitamin for a couple of days and it went away. A week later it was back. I phoned my wife and she did a search on it. Then she told me to see dr. in the next town. I stopped at Manchester Center, VT. The Dr. told me that I probably had Lyme Disease but that blood test would not reveal it for at least a month. She said that the CDC had instructed them to put anyone with my symptoms on the antibiotic Docicyclin for 21 days. I did not have the bullseye around the tick bite, but the Dr. said in half the cases the bullseye doesn't occur. The good news was that I never had to stop hiking as the symptoms subside in about 48 hours after beginning the medicine.

Here's the catch. Lyme Disease doesn't leave your body easily and the long term health implications are serious. They include permanent joint damage and pain. They also include the possibility of Rheumatoid (cripling) arthritis. I know one person in Nashville who has to take medicines for his joints because he ignored his Lyme disease.

I finished my antibiotics about August 10th. In September after finally listening to my wife, I went to my local doctor who did a blood test. The test revealed that I still had the disease, with no apparent symptoms. But, it wasn't Lyme, it was Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever which is also caused from a tick bite and has some of the same symptoms.

Take precautions to avoid catching it, and if you contact it, you need to make sure you get rid of it. Do not trust that it will go away on it's own.

[Pickleodeon]

What's the difference between Permethrin and Deet? I've heard deet is really bad for you. What are the pros/cons of each. Also, I've heard catnip oil works well too, at least for mosquitos, anyone try this?

[wcgornto]

Permethrin is to treat your clothes. Spray it or soak it, then wear your clothes when dry. It is not to be applied directly to yourself. DEET is to spray on your skin. Permethrin kills bugs. DEET masks carbon dioxide so that the bugs don't know you're a tasty morsel and are not attracted to you.

You can use one or the other or both.

I know nothing about how bad for you either or both might be. I do know, however, that Lyme disease and West Nile virus are not good for you.

[ChinMusic]

What's the difference between Permethrin and Deet? I've heard deet is really bad for you. What are the pros/cons of each. Also, I've heard catnip oil works well too, at least for mosquitos, anyone try this?

If a tick walks for a couple inches on clothing (it may be enough to just touch it) treated with permethrin it is a "dead bug walking". Deet does not kill.

[AZJ_Jerky]

From Wiki:

Toxicity
Permethrin is extremely toxic to fish. Extreme care must be taken when using products containing permethrin near water sources. Permethrin is also highly toxic to cats.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-4) Flea and tick repellent formulas intended (and labeled) for dogs may contain permethrin (like k-9 Advantix and Advantage Multi for Dogs) and cause feline permethrin toxicosis in cats: specific flea and tick control formulas intended for feline use, such as those containing fipronil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipronil), should therefore be used for cats instead.
Permethrin is classified by the US EPA a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-5) Carcinogenic action in nasal mucosal cells for inhalation exposure is suspected due to observed genotoxicity in human tissue samples, and in rat livers the evidence of increased preneoplastic lesions lends concern over oral exposure.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-7)

[emerald]

Okay, how about a MSDS for the particular formulation most people are applying to their clothing?

[take-a-knee]

From Wiki:

Toxicity
Permethrin is extremely toxic to fish. Extreme care must be taken when using products containing permethrin near water sources. Permethrin is also highly toxic to cats.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-4) Flea and tick repellent formulas intended (and labeled) for dogs may contain permethrin (like k-9 Advantix and Advantage Multi for Dogs) and cause feline permethrin toxicosis in cats: specific flea and tick control formulas intended for feline use, such as those containing fipronil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipronil), should therefore be used for cats instead.
Permethrin is classified by the US EPA a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-5) Carcinogenic action in nasal mucosal cells for inhalation exposure is suspected due to observed genotoxicity in human tissue samples, and in rat livers the evidence of increased preneoplastic lesions lends concern over oral exposure.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-7)

Then stay in your basement the rest of your life. I 'll take my chances with the permethrin and enjoy the outdoors every time I get a chance. As for cancer, I have news for you, cancer is genetic, either you have the genes for it or you don't. If you get it, SUGAR is what feeds it. My point is, healthy people who eat a healthy diet, typically don't have to worry about cancer. Oh, also WORRY is a risk factor for cancer.

[garlic08]

I'd assume this kind of treatment is also good for black fly season - like in Maine, etc?

I don't think so. All the permethrin does is kill bugs that have a relatively long exposure to it, like a tick crawling on your clothing. It also repels mosquitoes to some degree. I don't think it will repel flies, which can't bite through clothing anyway. I thankfully haven't had much experience with black flies, just a week or so last year at the end of the fly season (early July). Long trousers and shirt sleeves, a hat and headnet worked fine. I was with a partner who used no chemicals, DEET or permethrin, and there was no difference with the black flies.

[HnH]

Yes, Lyme disease sucks. My wife and I attempted a thru hike last year before a tick bit her outside of North Adams, Mass. I first knew something was wrong when she drank all of our water during the middle of the night. She had fierce cold/hot sweats everynight. Every step was tough. Four days and 30 miles later, we made it to bennington, Vt. As I watched the bite transform from a checker sized red inflamed spot on day 1 to nothing on day 4, she was running a 103.5 fever so we decided it was time for the ER(it was our only option). The nurse asked for the symptons, thought it was lyme disease, and asked to looked at the "spider" bite. He looks up and says, "thats one of the best bullseye I have ever seen."

We used 100% deet, until day after day we watched ticks race up our legs. We constantly checked ourself throughout the day trying to stop any bites. You will get bit. All you can hope for is luck. We watched many of our friends experience the same bouts with ticks, especially further north. Some finished and some did not.

The best advice is to learn something from every hiker, be courteous, and enjoy the opportunity that you have. And take lots of pictures!!! They are priceless.

[AZJ_Jerky]

Then stay in your basement the rest of your life. I 'll take my chances with the permethrin and enjoy the outdoors every time I get a chance. As for cancer, I have news for you, cancer is genetic, either you have the genes for it or you don't. If you get it, SUGAR is what feeds it. My point is, healthy people who eat a healthy diet, typically don't have to worry about cancer. Oh, also WORRY is a risk factor for cancer.

You're contradicting yourself here. If, as you say, cancer is purely genetic then what does it matter if you live a healthy life or not? (As you suggest as a way to avoid cancer) What would sugar and "Worry" matter? You will either get it or you won't according to your opinion right? So since it's (As you state) purely genetic we should all have no worry over the things we consume, the things we do...The things we expose ourselves to. I guess that the Surgeon General, the EPA, and science itself are all wrong....Things like tobacco, radiation, asbestos....Not a factor for cancer, right? Either "You have the genes for it or you don't" as you state.

That's interesting.

Sure, genetics play a part. I can agree with that, but they aren't the whole story in the least.

I'm glad that you've decided to use permethrin and enjoy the outdoors if you feel more comfortable doing so, that's awesome. But the simple fact is that permethrin is a pesticide and is classified as a carcinogen. It will do a great job of keeping you protected from Lyme disease from what I understand though, that is quite true. It's just a matter of evaluating the risk for each, evaluating all the outcomes and rewards, and making your own personal decision. It's like this with anything you do in your life, or anything you put in or on your body....Look at permethrin, DEET (Which apparently may assist in the dermal absorbtion of permethrin if used together), chlorine dioxide....Long distance hiking in itself. All have their individual risks and rewards. All can do great things for you, all can hurt you.

To me, common sense states that a chemical so powerful it can kill a tick after it simply touches fabric that's been impregnated with it...Well...If it does that to a tick...What could it do to you? At the very least, it looks like permethrin does its job as advertised, it should mostly protect you from being in a position to acquire Lyme Disease. But I would hesitate at calling it a miracle with no drawbacks. It's a poison (And more) and should be handled as such.

"Then stay in your basement the rest of your life. I'll take my chances with the permethrin and enjoy the outdoors every time I get a chance. "

I'm pretty sure it's quite possible to enjoy the outdoors without permethrin, and I'm pretty sure you don't have to hide in your basement the rest of your life if you don't use it...Have fun outside...With or without. :)

[Pickleodeon]

so, DEET or Permethrin?
This is the info for Permethrin, not neccessarily the kind for human clothes spraying.

Permethrin G-Pro
Termiticide/Insecticide:

EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

Harmful if swallowed, inhaled, or absorbed through the
skin. Causes moderate eye irritation. Avoid breathing
vapor or spray mist. Avoid contact with skin, eyes or
clothing. Wash thoroughly with soap and water after
handling and before eating, drinking, chewing gum or
using tobacco. Remove contaminated clothing and
wash before reuse.

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS: Effects from overexposure
result from ingestion or contact with the skin or eyes.
Symptoms of overexposure include increased hypersensitivity
to touch and sound, tremors and convulsions.
Contact with permethrin may produce skin sensations
such as numbing, burning or tingling. These skin sensations
are reversible and usually subside within 12 hours.

Deet info from WIKI:

As a precaution, manufacturers advise that DEET products should not be used under clothing or on damaged skin, and that preparations be washed off after they are no longer needed or between applications.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-CDC-6) DEET can act as an irritant;[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-petherick-0) in rare cases, it may cause skin reactions.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-CDC-6)
In the DEET Reregistration Eligibility Decision (RED), the United States Environmental Protection Agency‎ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency) (EPA) reported 14 to 46 cases of potential DEET-associated seizures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure), including 4 deaths. The EPA states: "... it does appear that some cases are likely related to DEET toxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicity)," but observed that with 30% of the US population using DEET, the likely seizure rate is only about one per 100 million users.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-7)
The Pesticide Information Project of Cooperative Extension Offices of Cornell University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_University) states that "Everglades National Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everglades_National_Park) employees having extensive Deet exposure were more likely to have insomnia, mood disturbances and impaired cognitive function than were lesser exposed co-workers". [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#cite_note-EXTOXNET-8)

[Tinker]

Head-to-toe bugsuit?

[take-a-knee]

You're contradicting yourself here. If, as you say, cancer is purely genetic then what does it matter if you live a healthy life or not? (As you suggest as a way to avoid cancer) What would sugar and "Worry" matter? You will either get it or you won't according to your opinion right? So since it's (As you state) purely genetic we should all have no worry over the things we consume, the things we do...The things we expose ourselves to. I guess that the Surgeon General, the EPA, and science itself are all wrong....Things like tobacco, radiation, asbestos....Not a factor for cancer, right? Either "You have the genes for it or you don't" as you state.

That's interesting.

Sure, genetics play a part. I can agree with that, but they aren't the whole story in the least.

I'm glad that you've decided to use permethrin and enjoy the outdoors if you feel more comfortable doing so, that's awesome. But the simple fact is that permethrin is a pesticide and is classified as a carcinogen. It will do a great job of keeping you protected from Lyme disease from what I understand though, that is quite true. It's just a matter of evaluating the risk for each, evaluating all the outcomes and rewards, and making your own personal decision. It's like this with anything you do in your life, or anything you put in or on your body....Look at permethrin, DEET (Which apparently may assist in the dermal absorbtion of permethrin if used together), chlorine dioxide....Long distance hiking in itself. All have their individual risks and rewards. All can do great things for you, all can hurt you.

To me, common sense states that a chemical so powerful it can kill a tick after it simply touches fabric that's been impregnated with it...Well...If it does that to a tick...What could it do to you? At the very least, it looks like permethrin does its job as advertised, it should mostly protect you from being in a position to acquire Lyme Disease. But I would hesitate at calling it a miracle with no drawbacks. It's a poison (And more) and should be handled as such.

"Then stay in your basement the rest of your life. I'll take my chances with the permethrin and enjoy the outdoors every time I get a chance. "

I'm pretty sure it's quite possible to enjoy the outdoors without permethrin, and I'm pretty sure you don't have to hide in your basement the rest of your life if you don't use it...Have fun outside...With or without. :)

Sure you can enjoy the outdoors sans permethrin...right up until you get Lyme, you won't be enjoying much after that, you might consider suck-starting a pistol.

I have a basic understanding of gene expression, I doubt if you do. The correlation between all untoward effects of tobacco has been calculated at around 0.4, it is there, certainly not a smart move but not a sure bet either. The asbestos/implanted foreign object comparison is wholly unapplicable. Radiation doesn't alter gene espression per se, it is a mutagen, another completely different comparison.

Like smoking, using permethrin might be of concern if you used it 12mo/yr for the rest of your life, no one does that I'm aware of, unless you live in a tropical clime and I'd still take my chances with permethrin over Malaria (seen it, don't want it), or Dengue ( had that one thank you).

Going into Lyme infested areas sans chemical barriers is like hanging out in whorehouses sans protection, the question is when, not if.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I spray both the outside and inside of my hiking shoes as well as all my clothing and sleeping bag(outside and around zipper and collar especially). The sooner they die if they get on you the better. And preferably before they actually get on you. The only good tick is a dead tick.

[emerald]

Information provided by National Pesticide Information Center (NIPC) including many links may be found here (http://pi.ace.orst.edu/search/showPDF.s?docNum=5#xml=http://pi.ace.orst.edu/search/pdfHL.s?docNum=5).

[Pickleodeon]

alright. So which one is going to be more effective?

[AZJ_Jerky]

Sure you can enjoy the outdoors sans permethrin...right up until you get Lyme, you won't be enjoying much after that, you might consider suck-starting a pistol.

I have a basic understanding of gene expression, I doubt if you do. The correlation between all untoward effects of tobacco has been calculated at around 0.4, it is there, certainly not a smart move but not a sure bet either. The asbestos/implanted foreign object comparison is wholly unapplicable. Radiation doesn't alter gene espression per se, it is a mutagen, another completely different comparison.

Like smoking, using permethrin might be of concern if you used it 12mo/yr for the rest of your life, no one does that I'm aware of, unless you live in a tropical clime and I'd still take my chances with permethrin over Malaria (seen it, don't want it), or Dengue ( had that one thank you).

Going into Lyme infested areas sans chemical barriers is like hanging out in whorehouses sans protection, the question is when, not if.


Lol, you might get it, you might not. You might get it with with your
-hasn't been treated so lately permethrin clothes-, too. I'm sure there are many, many people who do not use permethrin, do not have Lyme Disease, and who will never get Lyme Disease. It's not "Playing with fire", or "Guaranteed". You don't NEED permethrin. If that was the case, many, many more people would have the disease. If you're really that worried about it, it should work though and is nice insurance, but it's still not without potential (And not completely researched) side effects. Is it ok when used as intended? Probably...Is it ok when used as intended, along with DEET, the chlorine drops in your water, while chowing down on your partially-hydrogenated oil filled snacks? Don't know about you, but I would start to consider it part of the chain in a "Not so healthy" lifestyle...Which you suggested as a way of avoiding cancer. It all adds up.

Gene expression....Know a little...Not an expert...I know more about oncology and the role genetics and other factors play in its acquisition...Regardless, it's obvious that both genetics and outside factors play a role...Whether those outside factors are chemicals, radiation...Doesn't matter....The differences between the outside factors is beside the point.

Going into the woods without permethrin isn't like jumping out an airplane without a parachute, neither is it "Rolling the dice". Could you get it? Of course. Will you? Probably not.

They used to think DDT, was a miracle. In the end, using permethrin could be a wonderful decision, not matter, or be a bad decision. I think all 3 are possible. That's up for each person to decide, after they see the facts and weigh all the risk/reward relationships.

[4eyedbuzzard]

alright. So which one is going to be more effective?

Both used properly together. DEET for skin contact. Permethrin for clothing.

[AZJ_Jerky]

Both used properly together. DEET for skin contact. Permethrin for clothing.

If you choose to use both, you should be cogniscent of the following:


Wearing permethrin-impregnated BDUs and applying DEET to exposed skin provide nearly 100% protection against bites of insects and other arthropods. DEET's enhancement of the dermal penetration of a variety of chemicals suggests that the use of DEET in conjunction with permethrin might facilitate the dermal absorption of permethrin. Research specifically on the interaction of DEET and permethrin has not been conducted and represents an area of uncertainty regarding the dermal absorption of permethrin. Facilitated absorption of permethrin by DEET is a possible concern for military personnel who apply DEET to the exposed skin and wear permethrin-treated BDUs. Although the area of skin with potentially overlapping coverage is small and is assumed to be of minor importance, the magnitude of the effect is not known with certainty.

[emerald]

That's up to each person to decide, after they see the facts and weigh all the risk/reward relationships.

How might we do more to help hikers reach such a conclusion? Your arguments against use of permethrin seem to not be as strong as those in favor of it. Can you provide more support for them?

[AZJ_Jerky]

How might we do more to help to help hikers reach such a conclusion? Your arguments against use of permethrin seem to not be as strong as those in favor of it. Can you provide more support for them?


Actually, I'm not against it. Or for it. :)

Early in the thread, someone asked what the potential toxicity / side effects were. I simply copied and pasted that entire section from Wikipedia in as a post without change, opinion, or comment in an attempt to answer their question, so I guess in a way I was just elaborating on what was written in that paragrasp when its validity was questioned.

If you're that worried about getting Lyme Disease, and you can't have a good time outdoors without it, by all means use it.

But you should know all the facts before you do use it, or anything else for that matter. It's a toxic pesticide classified as a likely human carcinogen. I think that's important information...And I think it's also important to note that not using it is by no means a guarantee you'll acquire the disease.

[AZJ_Jerky]

Wow...Wish we could edit our posts here...Not sure what a "Paragrasp" is but it sounds pretty cool... :)

[emerald]

Donate and your wish will come true!:)

[AZJ_Jerky]

Aha! I knew there was a way. I didn't know that...Thanks!

[Kanati]

Wow...Wish we could edit our posts here...Not sure what a "Paragrasp" is but it sounds pretty cool... :)


That's WBer's vanacular. It's like....incrypted or something, you know?

[Tinker]

Full bug suit. Top is from Outdoor Research, discontinued. Pants are from Campmor.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=25280&catid=member&imageuser=13750

I still can't get used to a headnet while walking. In camp it's ok, on the trail I spray deet (usually Ben's 100) on the underside of the brim of my hat and on the sun cape in back. Occasionally I need to use it in my ears.
Make EXTRA sure you wash your hands after applying Deet. Getting it in your eyes (usually rubbing them with the backs of your hands) is no fun!