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Slo-go'en
01-26-2009, 12:18
I was poking around trailjournals last night and found journals for four people who started Jan 1st at Springer. Of those 4, 3 have gotten off the trail. Two of them plan to come back in March once it warms up!

Good luck to those of you who plan to head out in a week or two, looks like its going to stay seriously cold for awhile!

Cabin Fever
01-26-2009, 12:50
Is Kayak Karl the one still out?

I saw two male middle aged hikers that could have been thru hikers close to Kincora yesterday in Laurel Fork Gorge. Their gear and such could have passed for thru hiking or long section hiking.

No Belay
01-26-2009, 12:53
Slo, Thanks for the good wishes. I hope to be starting Sunday or Monday and my base is up almost 7lbs but I plan on being comfortable. I got one of Henry Shires new 4 season design tarptents and from the shakedowns I've done around here it looks like it's going to be the berries. I've gotten almost totally away from down and gone to the newest synthetics and I'll never look back. The few ounces I picked up far out weigh the fickleness of down and gives me alot less to worry about on soaker days. The cold weather is expected and the solitude helps you appreciate the company once the "wave" hits the trail.

TaTonka

Slo-go'en
01-26-2009, 13:17
Cabin Fever - Kayak Karl's journal didn't come up, but his photos did and the latest one was of Fontana dam shelter. He's the one I assume is still out there. Looked like a lot of snow up in the hills though.

No Belay - I agree on you with the synthetics, less worries. Its dropped down to -20 up here in the north country again the last few nights. Coldest winter in recent memory. Stay dry and keep warm!

max patch
01-26-2009, 13:22
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=260689

Blissful
01-26-2009, 14:28
He'll get snow for sure in the Smokies... Hope he can get off and go to Gatlinburg.

Hikerwannabe
01-26-2009, 16:41
Karl just called me to let me know he has already passed the Gatinburg Rangers Station and is doing fine. He is Looking for his next Stop to be Indian Bear Stand?? Does anyone know where thats located? But He is doing well...with no problems :)

Slo-go'en
01-26-2009, 17:26
You mean Standing Bear hostel, which is just a stones throw north of the GSNP. Good to hear he's still going strong.

Hikerwannabe
01-26-2009, 18:32
Thank You so much for what it's really called when he calls I get really broken up talk so where is that located from the rangers office? Do you know?

Chaco Taco
01-26-2009, 18:36
WOW he is movin right along

emerald
01-26-2009, 18:37
Early-starters, hang tough, for when red-eyed vireos (http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Red-eyed_Vireo.html) return from South America to their Appalachian haunts, they will rally northbound A.T. hikers by repeating in a loud, clear, encouraging voice "You can do it. Go for it!" Through these efforts, they have converted some of the most timid doubters into the strongest, most capable believers.;)

Hikerwannabe
01-26-2009, 18:41
Yeah He is a real go getter...I will give him that!!!

Kanati
01-26-2009, 19:02
Thank You so much for what it's really called when he calls I get really broken up talk so where is that located from the rangers office? Do you know?

The Rangers station would be Sugarlands Visitor Center near Gatlinburg, TN, which is about 10 miles west of the A.T. at Newfound Gap on hwy 441. NF Gap is about 1/2 thru the GSMNP. NF Gap is also about 3 days form Standing Bear hostel for average hikers. Two days for faster ones.

Jack Tarlin
01-26-2009, 19:36
Interesting thread.

Every year is different.

Some years, you get mild weather in early March or even February, and the early folks sail right along and do just fine.

Other years, it's a different story, and the weather is so severe that it drives some folks home, many of who might have gutted it out if they'd started just a few weeks later.

Don't forget, also, that if you start early, you'll have more bad weather days; more late starts due to cold or bad weather; more abbreviated hiking days (like you'll get to a shelter at 1:30 and you'll stop for the day cuz you don't wanna hike anymore!!). You'll have more town days; you'll have unplanned town stops; you'll wake up in town when the weather is bad and you'll decide to stay and take an unplanned zero day because you don't want to hike, etc.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but the folks who start early because they think it'll help them "beat the crowds" are often in for a really big surprise. I've never left Springer before 15 March but I've frequently caught up with folks who started many days, if not weeks before me, and I'm not that fast a hiker. Thes people didn't beat any crowds. The crowds caught up with them. All they got for their trouble was a lot of slow days, a lot of short days, a lot of days hiking in miserable weather, a lot of unplanned town days, and a lot of town time that resulted in a $500.00 hit to their trip budget that could've been avoided if they started in better weather.

Something to think about, maybe, for those of you determined to "beat the crowds" ..............

No Belay
01-26-2009, 23:09
Hey Jack that was sure an encouraging major pile of BS.

I guess Karl didn't read that before he left. Some folks thrive on the rawness and challenge of the winter experience, the power of nature and the pureness of a fresh fallen snow blown by a clean clear wind. The almost deafening swish of the wind that in a second can fall to the quietest moment where you can hear the snow fall and the noise of your own breath almost seems to be an unwelcome intruder. I'd rather spend 3 days on a trail making 10 miles in the snow with unlimited vistas then I would three days in the green tunnel making 20 miles a day with 50 other hikers comparing mileage stats and elevation changes.

Winter hikers are a different breed than the norm and a lot of the negatives you projected are actually the reason we do it. If I want to take an extra day in town because of bad weather, awesome. I'll know more of the culture and the inhabitants. Short hiking days? The weather didn't decide that, I did. A $500 dollar hit on my budget? Have you spent a week in the Bahamas lately. etc. etc.

The folks that winter hike are normally very mature, self sufficient, experienced hikers with varied multi trail histories. They hike to absorb the nature aspect of the trail without much concern for the social experience that most fair weather hikers are motivated by. Most have more wander lust and spirit of adventure than they do inflated egos. What motivates a hiker to spend their whole life thru hiking the AT over and over again is as mysterious to me as it appears a winter hikers motivation is to you. But that's why God coined the expression "HYOH". It should be the 11th commandment.

TaTonka

mudcap
01-26-2009, 23:37
Wow,That is superb! I can not add a thing,you hit the nail on the head !


Hey Jack that was sure an encouraging major pile of BS.

I guess Karl didn't read that before he left. Some folks thrive on the rawness and challenge of the winter experience, the power of nature and the pureness of a fresh fallen snow blown by a clean clear wind. The almost deafening swish of the wind that in a second can fall to the quietest moment where you can hear the snow fall and the noise of your own breath almost seems to be an unwelcome intruder. I'd rather spend 3 days on a trail making 10 miles in the snow with unlimited vistas then I would three days in the green tunnel making 20 miles a day with 50 other hikers comparing mileage stats and elevation changes.

Winter hikers are a different breed than the norm and a lot of the negatives you projected are actually the reason we do it. If I want to take an extra day in town because of bad weather, awesome. I'll know more of the culture and the inhabitants. Short hiking days? The weather didn't decide that, I did. A $500 dollar hit on my budget? Have you spent a week in the Bahamas lately. etc. etc.

The folks that winter hike are normally very mature, self sufficient, experienced hikers with varied multi trail histories. They hike to absorb the nature aspect of the trail without much concern for the social experience that most fair weather hikers are motivated by. Most have more wander lust and spirit of adventure than they do inflated egos. What motivates a hiker to spend their whole life thru hiking the AT over and over again is as mysterious to me as it appears a winter hikers motivation is to you. But that's why God coined the expression "HYOH". It should be the 11th commandment.

TaTonka

Hikerwannabe
01-26-2009, 23:59
Thank-You So Much!!!! You just Kinda Summed it all up in a Nutshell....

Hikerwannabe
01-27-2009, 00:22
A totally different Breed ....I will atest to that...LOL

Panzer1
01-27-2009, 01:28
Winter hikers are a different breed than the norm and a lot of the negatives you projected are actually the reason we do it.

If winter hikers are a different breed than why did 3 of the 4 who started Jan 1st get off the trail.. 2 of them reportly are coming back when "it warms up"..


Panzer

Hikerwannabe
01-27-2009, 01:34
OK Panzer ...You got me there.. BUT Kayak Karl is deffinately A DiFFERENT Breed... He Can do this Winter Thing...I hopeeeee...because he so wants to do the trail...from start to finish..please just wish him luck....

The Solemates
01-27-2009, 10:10
winter is no biggie if you know what you're doing.

while i agree jack's post is overly negative and discouraging, he brings up some good points and he sees himself as an educator for the trail. many people dont realize what they are getting into when doing a winter hike, and jack just wants to make them aware of that.

bigcranky
01-27-2009, 11:45
Jack's post has to be somewhat negative and discouraging -- there appear to be a lot of hikers out there who think that February in the Georgia mountains is just like February in, say, Florida. You know, kind of cold sometimes, but not too bad...

Well, No Belay is right, winter hikers are a different breed, but what Jack is doing is giving a reality check to those hikers who don't have any winter hiking experience, and don't understand what they are getting into. So far, the 75% drop out rate among the four hikers mentioned sort of bears that out, eh?

Frosty
01-27-2009, 12:11
If winter hikers are a different breed than why did 3 of the 4 who started Jan 1st get off the trail.. 2 of them reportly are coming back when "it warms up"..


PanzerJust because they didn't make it doesn't mean they were wrong to have tried.

If you or Jack use that logic, no one should attempt the AT because three of four fail, even March April starters.

Jack's advice is perfect for Jack. If he would present it that way, "here's what works for me," rather than the "here's why you are doing it wrong" attitude, it would likely be better accepted as advice. He does an excellent job with his re-supply article, but you will notice it has a "here is the data, do with it what you will" tone.

Winter hikers/campers are a bit different than "normal" hikers, and very different from the hike from town bar to to town bar hikers.

They enjoy the challenge and don't see it as a failure if they must take shelter for a day or a month. Learning when to bail is part of being a cold weather backpacker.

It's just a different attitude than the "what is the easiest possible way to do this" hiker.

My opinion only. I've done a lot of winter camping but not so much lately. But I can see why people like it, and more power to them.

More power to ANYONE who enjoys being outdoors.

Panzer1
01-27-2009, 12:11
I didn't think Jack meant his statement to be negative or discouraging. I think he was just saying the facts so that hikers would know exactly why it is harder and more expensive to start in cold weather. This way they can better plan when to start their thru.

Panzer

max patch
01-27-2009, 12:41
Hey Jack that was sure an encouraging major pile of BS.



No, what Jack said is totally correct.

Starting your hike early sounds romantic when you are sitting in your lazyboy chair, sucking down a brew, and the furnace is keeping the house at 72 degrees.

Its different to actually experience snow, ice, and single digit temps (actually below zero a couple days this year in ga) once you are out there.

People who have winter hiked before -- and know that they like it -- will do fine. Its the winter hiking newbee that starts too early who has to face the consequences that Jack mentions.

Red Hat
01-27-2009, 12:43
Rocky and Swamp Fox are the two who are coming back. They live in New Hampshire and are used to winter hiking. Swamp Fox got sick so they decided it would be better to take some time off. They knew what they were getting into when they stated. Having hiked with them, I know they WIILL be back. Bluevist is the other one who got off. A mature female hiker who has hiked in January before, she also knew what to expect. Kayak Karl is in the GSMP and doing fine. Not mentioned is another hiker, Trek, who was in Hot Springs last week. I salute all five of them!

Slo-go'en
01-27-2009, 14:10
Winter hiking/camping for a few days is one thing, to do it every day for a couple of months is quite another. It takes a lot of energy and stamina. Something most people don't have or run out of pretty quickly.

I can see why some people want to try it though. The woods are beutiful after a freash snow fall or to come across a frozen waterfall. There are few or no else around, so your turely on your own. If you can pull it off, its a great personal achivement.

ofthearth
01-27-2009, 14:37
Interesting thread.

Every year is different.

Some years, you get mild weather in early March or even February, and the early folks sail right along and do just fine.

Other years, it's a different story, and the weather is so severe that it drives some folks home, many of who might have gutted it out if they'd started just a few weeks later.

Don't forget, also, that if you start early, you'll have more bad weather days; more late starts due to cold or bad weather; more abbreviated hiking days (like you'll get to a shelter at 1:30 and you'll stop for the day cuz you don't wanna hike anymore!!). You'll have more town days; you'll have unplanned town stops; you'll wake up in town when the weather is bad and you'll decide to stay and take an unplanned zero day because you don't want to hike, etc.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but the folks who start early because they think it'll help them "beat the crowds" are often in for a really big surprise. I've never left Springer before 15 March but I've frequently caught up with folks who started many days, if not weeks before me, and I'm not that fast a hiker. Thes people didn't beat any crowds. The crowds caught up with them. All they got for their trouble was a lot of slow days, a lot of short days, a lot of days hiking in miserable weather, a lot of unplanned town days, and a lot of town time that resulted in a $500.00 hit to their trip budget that could've been avoided if they started in better weather.

Something to think about, maybe, for those of you determined to "beat the crowds" ..............

I think Jacks post should have had the part "I'm not trying to discourage anyone" and "Something to think about, maybe, for those of you determined to "beat the crowds" in bold or caps. The post does sound some what negitive in the context of KK but lets keep in mind that an early start to beat the crowds may not have been his reason for starting in Jan. As far as the unplanned town time/days he seems to have enjoyed and made the most of unplanned stops or lay overs.

HYOY So far KK seems to be doing just.

RWK
01-27-2009, 14:42
Interesting thread.

Every year is different.

Some years, you get mild weather in early March or even February, and the early folks sail right along and do just fine.



I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but the folks who start early because they think it'll help them "beat the crowds" are often in for a really big surprise.

Something to think about, maybe, for those of you determined to "beat the crowds" ..............

It seems people are being a little defensive about winter hiking. I reread this post I don't really think it is all that negative, just merely points out some of the possible consequences of an early start. In fact if you read it carefully Jack says he is not trying to discourage anyone and this was really directed to those hikers who are starting very early just to avoid the crowds, not experienced winter hikers who like the experience. I have read a lot of posts from people who obviously have no idea what extended winter camping is like and the only reson they give for an early start is beating the crowds. For these people Jack's post would provide some good food for thought.

HnH
01-27-2009, 14:44
Slogoen!!! I hope you remember Hawk and Hummingbird. If you are hiking down south anytime PM me.

As far as weather goes...It has been a lot colder than usual. Been down to 6-10 degrees (at my house at 1685ft and 15 miles from springer mtn) 4-5 nights this winter. We have received snow 4 times, wintry mix 2 times. It was nothing huge. Only about 1 inch being the max and usually a dusting. I can easily imagine higher elevations receiving 1-4 inches during those nights.

Catalyst
01-27-2009, 17:22
....i love to winter hike. no bugs. no people. no green tunnel. just the lovely quiet and broad vistas- and the frozen boots, and the frozen food, and the frozen water....hurray! makes you *really* appreciate a sunwarmed leeward rock face when it's gettin to be the time for a snack, and if you're lucky, there will be a squirrel race to watch. i'm going out in mid feb- for all of the reasons TaTonka mentions, so i suppose i'm of that "different" breed myself. HYOH is an excellent precept to keep in mind. met lots of folks who adore the warm-weather stuff; i'm not one of those.

Panzer1
01-27-2009, 17:27
.
..and if you're lucky, there will be a squirrel race to watch.

And I thought I was the only one crazy enough to watch squirrels chasing each other around. :D

Panzer

ChinMusic
01-27-2009, 17:33
I enjoy winter hiking, within reason. Anything above 10 is fine. Under that, I'm bailing. I just did Damascus to Dennis Cove(Kincora) over New Years. The rain/sleet/snow/fog was GREAT. I love a touch of nastiness......a touch.

I would prob start my future thru in late Feb (maybe earlier). I would be retired and could pick and choose when to hike. If the weather/conditions turn crappy I'm not too proud to sit it out in a hotel. I could see knocking out a few miles in January if conditions are right.

At my pace I would meet TONS of folks as they pass me on their thrus.......

ofthearth
01-28-2009, 22:35
Has anybody heard any more about Kayak Karl? Where he might be? The weather?

Red Hat
01-28-2009, 22:48
He says he'll be at Standing Bear Farm tomorrow on his journal entry today. It is cold!

kayak karl
01-29-2009, 19:07
Has anybody heard any more about Kayak Karl? Where he might be? The weather?
am STILL HERE:). i'm at standing bear farms. it rained till 3 pm yesterday at 40 degrees. then it dropped to 25 in 15 min. and did a snow/ice thing. the walk here this morn was amazing. trees frozen, frost everywhere. mountians sticking up through the clouds. you need to see the mountians in the winter. you cant explain it. for people that have never done it it seems stupid. maybe i am, but i will never forget this trip to date even if i quit today, but i plan on hanging my hammock a lot more days. im having way to much fun:banana

Mags
01-29-2009, 19:12
Keep on truckin' Sounds like you are having a blast!

Cool AT Breeze
01-29-2009, 20:53
It sounds like you're having a blast Karl.

Kanati
01-29-2009, 21:03
Hey Jack that was sure an encouraging major pile of BS.

I guess Karl didn't read that before he left. Some folks thrive on the rawness and challenge of the winter experience, the power of nature and the pureness of a fresh fallen snow blown by a clean clear wind. The almost deafening swish of the wind that in a second can fall to the quietest moment where you can hear the snow fall and the noise of your own breath almost seems to be an unwelcome intruder. I'd rather spend 3 days on a trail making 10 miles in the snow with unlimited vistas then I would three days in the green tunnel making 20 miles a day with 50 other hikers comparing mileage stats and elevation changes.

Winter hikers are a different breed than the norm and a lot of the negatives you projected are actually the reason we do it. If I want to
take an extra day in town because of bad weather, awesome. I'll know
more of the culture and the inhabitants. Short hiking days? The weather didn't decide that, I did. A $500 dollar hit on my budget? Have you spent a week in the Bahamas lately. etc. etc.

The folks that winter hike are normally very mature, self sufficient, experienced hikers with varied multi trail histories. They hike to absorb the nature aspect of the trail without much concern for the social experience that most fair weather hikers are motivated by. Most have more wander lust and spirit of adventure than they do inflated egos. What motivates a hiker to spend their whole life thru hiking the AT over and over again is as mysterious to me as it appears a winter hikers motivation is to you. But that's why God coined the expression "HYOH". It should be the 11th commandment.

TaTonka

"Ditto" and an added advantage is the beauty of the mountains in winter. The absence of leaves exposes the character of the mountains. We really enjoyed our March 1st start last year. I actually got bored when the woods greened up

mudcap
01-29-2009, 21:03
Great news Karl,glad you are enjoying the journey.Keep up the positive outlook. I have been following you through your journal,very cool !

Tin Man
01-29-2009, 21:14
It seems people are being a little defensive about winter hiking. I reread this post I don't really think it is all that negative, just merely points out some of the possible consequences of an early start. In fact if you read it carefully Jack says he is not trying to discourage anyone and this was really directed to those hikers who are starting very early just to avoid the crowds, not experienced winter hikers who like the experience. I have read a lot of posts from people who obviously have no idea what extended winter camping is like and the only reson they give for an early start is beating the crowds. For these people Jack's post would provide some good food for thought.

folks whine about any posts that differs from their beliefs.

winter hiking is cool if you are prepared, dang cold if you ain't