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wikea1
01-27-2009, 15:41
I have heard that a water filter is not neccessary to bring by some and neccessary by others. Should I bring a pump on the trail, stick with the tablets, solution droplets, or nothing? Thanks guys!

tenbeer
01-27-2009, 15:46
I use a msr mini works, It works great as long as you continually clean the filter. Most thru hikers prefer chemicals, such as pure bleach or aqua mira. therefore reducing your pack base weight. I prefer to carry the extra weight instead of putting bleach or chlorine dioxide in my body.

Serial 07
01-27-2009, 16:00
you are gonna get 50 responses to this...i'm glad mines is #3...

you don't need a filter for the AT...get your water from a spring...get your water from a stream higher in elevation...avoid water along a road or near obvious farms...stagnant water is bad...if it doesn't feel right to your intuition, move on...but you don't need a filter...spring water is the most amazing thing you can feed your body!

Manwich
01-27-2009, 16:04
i bring a filter only to pump water out of the spit of a trickle coming off the side of a rock during the dry season. otherwise, grow some hair on your ass and start drinking some particulate!

Arizona
01-27-2009, 16:09
Definitely bring either a filter, chemicals or Steripen. Picking up a parasite can make your life on the trail miserable for quite a few days.

ChinMusic
01-27-2009, 16:14
I use a Steripen for areas with water like the AT (it is mostly clear). I do think that MOST of the water on the AT is safe to drink without treatment.

That said, I treat. eg: I do think my drive home tonight will be safe, but I will wear my seatbelt anyway.

beakerman
01-27-2009, 16:19
Ok having dealt with the backwoods death crap before I can tell you right now you want to treat your water somehow. I grew up in Appalacia and back in the day as a scout we were on a hike. the water was literally squirting up out of the ground a few inches and we were near the top of the mountain so I filled my canteen--what could be more pure than that fresh cool sandstone filtered spring water right? WRONG I was laid up for about a week and a half with the absolute worst case of creeping crap I've ever had. That was 20 years ago and I'm still not right. What's worse is from my understanding the old stand by, Iodine tablets, don't even touch crypto so I boil all of my stuff now or fill up and pack it as far as it will go.

garlic08
01-27-2009, 16:20
you are gonna get 50 responses to this...i'm glad mines is #3...

you don't need a filter for the AT...get your water from a spring...get your water from a stream higher in elevation...avoid water along a road or near obvious farms...stagnant water is bad...if it doesn't feel right to your intuition, move on...but you don't need a filter...spring water is the most amazing thing you can feed your body!

Ditto for me. And in those 50 responses, you'll get at least 51 opinions.

In town, people buy bottled spring water. On the trail, when faced with the actual spring, people will treat or filter it like town water. Funny/sad.

Mags
01-27-2009, 16:35
And now for some humor....

My good buddy d-low (the man who coined EMBRACE THE BRUTALITY for the CDT) is a short, sarcastic, northeast transplant with an Italian last name.

For some odd reason, we seem to get along well. :)

On the many trips we've spent together, we tend to bust each others...er beans, all day. One memorable trip, there were about 8 of us at a campfire the night before a big day hike. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,36/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=17141&g2_page=1) Those who were of the more gentle Boulder mindset were not quite sure what to make of the continuous stream of sarcasm, insults and good natured ribbing.

Anyway, d-low (on a trip with our other CDT buddy Disco) had this to say about my water treatment methods:



http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/5529/tj5529%5F053007%5F003837%5F222956.jpg

You can read all about it here. (http://trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=184215) ;)

beakerman
01-27-2009, 16:35
Ditto for me. And in those 50 responses, you'll get at least 51 opinions.

In town, people buy bottled spring water. On the trail, when faced with the actual spring, people will treat or filter it like town water. Funny/sad.

Actually that spring water you get in the store is either A) not spring water--just bottled water from a tap--that's what is sad or B) real spring water that has been filtered.

so it's not that bad to filter the water--it does not say anything about us that do other than we are a little cautious--some of us with good reason.

beakerman
01-27-2009, 16:39
And now for some humor....

My good buddy d-low (the man who coined EMBRACE THE BRUTALITY for the CDT) is a short, sarcastic, northeast transplant with an Italian last name.

For some odd reason, we seem to get along well. :)

On the many trips we've spent together, we tend to bust each others...er beans, all day. One memorable trip, there were about 8 of us at a campfire the night before a big day hike. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,36/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=17141&g2_page=1) Those who were of the more gentle Boulder mindset were not quite sure what to make of the continuous stream of sarcasm, insults and good natured ribbing.

Anyway, d-low (on a trip with our other CDT buddy Disco) had this to say about my water treatment methods:



http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/5529/tj5529%5F053007%5F003837%5F222956.jpg

You can read all about it here. (http://trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=184215) ;)


Well that explains why he does not get sick--top it all off with a good heathly dose of alcohol and nothing grows in you. Now that's water treatmetn I can live with...

Smile
01-27-2009, 16:41
You can be sick for more than a few days, even months depending on what bug you might pick up. You might want to take a look upstream - this past spring someone had kindly shat upon the creekside above Stover Creek shelter, and left a hefty pile of TP to add to the ambiance of the area, you just don't know what is upstream or who has decided to crap where. Be safe, treat your water, or take a gamble, your choice.

May the gastrointestinal gods smile upon you if you choose to drink water raw! :)

Mags
01-27-2009, 16:42
Well that explains why he does not get sick--top it all off with a good heathly dose of alcohol and nothing grows in you. Now that's water treatmetn I can live with...

:)

Yep. One Tecate beer and a snort of some white tequila did not hurt.

I wonder why REI does not advertise this method????

On a serious note, I wrote this little blurb on water treatment. Think it looks at the issue even handedly:


*************************


On a topic related to hydration, is the topic of water treatment. Most of the time, it is almost impossible to carry enough water for an entire trip. Luckily, except in desert hiking, water is obtainable fairly frequently. But, you may have to treat your water. There can be nasties in the backcountry that can ruin a trip in the long term if bad water is drunk. Some people will drink out of every cow-pattie infested, smelly water puddle without even using a drop of iodine. Others will filter, treat chemically and boil water three times before drinking from the clearest Sierra spring 12000 feet above anything. Most people are somewhere in between. This document will not go into the various arguments about water (or lack of) treatment, but sufficient to say most people do use some form of water treatment.

Four common ways to treat water are:

1) Boiling Boiling water to a rolling boil will kill nasties in the water. But, it takes very long, makes the water tastes flat, and uses lots of fuel. Most use boiling as a last resort only

2) Chemically Using iodine is the old standby for water treatment up until recently. Typically known as “Portable Aqua” these tabs will treat one liter of water each. They take longer to treat water than a filter/purifier but are lighter and less complex than the filters. Iodine does have an aftertaste that some people do not like. You can also use iodine crystals (i.e. Polar Pure) and a newer chemical treatment known as Aqua Mira. Aqua Mira takes less time to treat water than iodine and is a two stage chemical process.

3) Filters/Purifiers Filters and purifiers are for most people the standard tool in the backpacker’s water treatment arsenal. Though they are heavier, bulkier and can break down/clog, they will treat water quickly and without a chemical after taste. If using a filter, be sure to keep the intake (dirty water) and output (clean water) hoses separate.

4) Steripen The equipment of choice for geeks! :) This pen-like device uses UV radiation to sterilize water. Besides being a bit expensive (~$80 online), it also depends upon batteries. They are also somewhat fragile and need more care than other methods of water treatment. Its main attraction is that it is quicker than other methods of treating water.
Filters, Steripens and, to a lesser extent, chemical treatment can be shared among multiple people on this trip.

Finally, be sure to wash your hands after “doing #2” and before eating. A simple bottle of Purrell (alcohol based hand sanitizer) can do wonders to prevent GI illnesses (tummy ache and the runs to non-medical types like me!). No point in treating water if you are sticking a dirty hand in your food..or worse yet, you may stick YOUR dirty hand in someone else's GORP. Yeeech!


There is increasing consensus that sanitation is more important than water treatment for preventing GI illnesses in the backcountry.
From http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/hygiene+sanitation.html (http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/hygiene+sanitation.html)

"A bigger concern, Backer says, is what medical types such as him call "fecal-oral transmission." Ew, gross. But it happens. Happens a lot, in fact—and research indicates it causes many more cases of intestinal distress than does ingesting Giardia."
Waterborne pathogens such as Giardia are not as widespread in backcountry water sources as once believed. A number of researchers and medical experts believe that much water in the wilderness (particularly in remote, high alpine settings) is drinkable without treatment.

Additionally:

Careful attention to personal hygiene can help prevent the spread of infection. Thomas R. Welch in a 2004 editorial in the journal Wilderness Medicine expressed the view that "stopping hand-to-mounth spread is the key to preventing gastrointestinal infection" and that routine universal treatment of water should be de-emphasized.



Treat water when in doubt, but more importantly listen to Mom and wash those hands!

beakerman
01-27-2009, 16:49
:)

Yep. One Tecate beer and a snort of some white tequila did not hurt.

I wonder why REI does not advertise this method????

REI tends to cater to the gramwiennies (ultra-ultra light this and that--they would sell special UL-water if they could get the deutiruim and tritium out of it first to shave the few nanograms from it--sad part is someone would buy it) so humping a half a gallon of jose gold into the wilds does not fit into that groups mantra:rolleyes:

garlic08
01-27-2009, 17:41
REI tends to cater to the gramwiennies (ultra-ultra light this and that...

Huh? You must go to a different REI than I do!

ChinMusic
01-27-2009, 17:43
Huh? You must go to a different REI than I do!
That's what I was thinking as well. REI, doesn't carry a lot of the SWEET stuff.

Peaks
01-27-2009, 17:46
I have heard that a water filter is not neccessary to bring by some and neccessary by others. Should I bring a pump on the trail, stick with the tablets, solution droplets, or nothing? Thanks guys!

This question pops up periodically.

There are really two questions here: First, do I need to treat my water? Some do, Some don't, and most of us probably treat some of our water some of the time. So, the answer depends on how much you trust the water source. I'll certainly trust the water that comes out of a faucet, and I certainly will not trust a stagnant pool. In between, well, that's depends.

When you do treat the water, there are several methods available. Some fileter, some use chemicals, some use Steri-pen. Do what ever works for you.

flemdawg1
01-27-2009, 17:50
REI tends to cater to the gramwiennies (ultra-ultra light this and that...:rolleyes:

Wha?

Mags
01-27-2009, 17:53
re: REI ultralite

I was wondering about that, too. :sun

beakerman
01-27-2009, 18:02
hey come on I put the little sarcasm doohicky thingy there....it was meant as a joke

beakerman
01-27-2009, 18:07
dang it meant o go advanced not post....why can't I edit my posts?

Anyway....

alcohol as a beverage probably really does not offer much protection against any waterborn beasites--that was a joke too--but even if it did there are much lighter ways to go however they probably would not be as enjoyable along the way...

Smile
01-27-2009, 18:09
Perhaps just skip the water part :):rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
01-27-2009, 18:11
I have heard that a water filter is not neccessary to bring by some and neccessary by others. Should I bring a pump on the trail, stick with the tablets, solution droplets, or nothing? Thanks guys!

i personally don't treat or filter. i don't see a reason to. i've never gotten sick from untreated/unfiltered water that i know of. to each their own

StubbleJumper
01-27-2009, 18:35
Well, here's the 51st opinion:

Beaver Fever can be nasty business. For that reason, I use Aqua Mira whenever I refill at a water source that appears that it may have meaningful potential for animal contamination - be it cattle, humans or beavers. At springs or mountain creeks, I drink the water as it is. So maybe 50/50 for me.

I chose Aqua Mira because of its effectiveness, reliability and light weight. It is relatively costly per liter compared to a filter or UV(but even that is pretty cheap). However, short of losing or spilling one of the bottles, it's pretty much bomb proof which cannot be said of filters or UV. It should be noted that stopping to mix the liquids from magical bottle A and magical bottle B is a bit of a PITA, particularly during a heavy rain (probably shouldn't dilute the chemicals until they've done their thing). On the other hand, pumping a filter isn't really a joy either.

You may hear a number of stories about people becoming sick for not having treated their water. I would caution you to take these stories with several grains of salt. Unless the water in question was tested, it is really difficult to say whether it was the water that caused an illness or some other vector. It could easily have been caused by poor hygiene (not washing well after visiting the thunderbox), hand-to-hand contamination from another hiker, food bacterial contamination, or a simple virus. Water is always a prime suspect, but is often not guilty.

FWIW, I carry Immodium tablets with me when I hike. They come in blisterpack that weighs about 2 grams. So far, it's been a wasted 2 grams that I've carried. Having the runs probably won't kill you, but it might make for a long, uncomfortable walk back to the trailhead!

ChinMusic
01-27-2009, 18:56
hey come on I put the little sarcasm doohicky thingy there....it was meant as a joke
You only have 9 posts up until now. Until you get to triple digits you will be taken literally......:p

Arizona
01-27-2009, 19:10
I have seen human waste and TP within a couple feet of a stream that otherwise looked good. I always treat my water unless it is coming right out of a rock.

beakerman
01-27-2009, 19:13
well stubble I can tell you for certain mine was not a case of potty hand to mouth disease, nor was it food poisoning. It was day one on the trail (in the morning in fact-20 years later I can still see that crystal clear water sparkling in the dappled sun...)that I filled that canteen and we all ate the same food for that day and the next--the only thing different between me and my compatriots was that I chose to fill the canteen and not hit it with iodine tablets--while everyone else (we were a partol of 8) did. By the end of the second day on the trail I was suffering bady adn we hiked back out the next morning--well they hiked I was sort of carried most of the way. My laziness cost me dearly in not only the uncomfortable trip back to the trail head after only two days on the trial but nearly a week in the hospital with an IV stuck in my arm.

Again that was my experience YMMV. This is not a case of I knew someone that got sick it was me so it's personal.

beakerman
01-27-2009, 19:18
You only have 9 posts up until now. Until you get to triple digits you will be taken literally......:p

Ok then I'kk put in my sig to take nothing I say seriously--if it seems odd it's meant as a joke. Do you think that would help?

The only thing I am serious about is treating the water--boil it, filter it, stick it in a nuclear reactor for all I care--just do something to it to try and protect yourself a little. I've gotten sick from water before (not far from the AT) and it ain't no fun. I would never joke about that nor would I like to see anyone get sick.

Ok I'm done preaching now back to the joking around....

TrippinBTM
01-27-2009, 20:40
I didn't filter more than five times, always using someone else's. I depended on iodine, which I used maybe 8 times. The water's fine, just drink it. The floaties add nutrition, and unless you only use filtered water to wash, brush teeth, cool off, swim in, you're putting yourself at risk anyways and might as well ditch the filter.

I personally think there's WAY more hype to the germ-danger than really exists. Heck, just to find a single spore in testing, they have to test 50 gallons of water. It's not like the water is saturated with germs.

Just be a little extra choosy about the quality level of where you get your water. Go uphill, look for smaller streams (less of a catchment area/drainage basin means less likelihood of contamination), and especially springs. Don't drink stagnant water. Don't drink where you see sign (hoof prints, cow pies, etc) of cattle, or moose for that matter. Don't drink from ponds and lakes if possible.

That said, I took chances a few times when I had no other options, and came out of it ok every time.

froggy055
01-27-2009, 22:25
Has anyone ever used bleach to purify their water versus iodine? American Red Cross states on their website that approx. 2 drops of bleach should purify a quart of water. It is listed as an emergency method but thought I would pose the question to other hikers out there.

Blissful
01-27-2009, 23:05
Aqua mira worked for me just fine all the way.

Tilly
01-27-2009, 23:21
YOU will find what works best for you.

Personally, I like to carry a filter. I don't use it at every source, at a nice spring I will drink untreated, but otherwise I do treat. I carry back up Aqua Mira but I hate using it. Takes too long, I just like to filter & be done with it.

That being said, many like just using iodine, bleach, or aqua mira and that work well for them.

My SO got Giardia a few years ago and it was horrible. Wouldn't want to risk getting something like that!

Strategic
01-27-2009, 23:32
Okay, usually I'm a "do what you like for yourself" kind of guy, but this is one area where it's just silly, all the stories of those who've been lucky not withstanding. Contamination of water is possible at any watersource, regardless of location or apparent clarity and cleanliness, from multiple possible organisms and vectors (for its arrival in the water.) We're lucky in the U.S. that we don't have any serious problems with viral water-borne diseases, but that's our only real advantage. Both Giardia and Cryptosporidium are nasty stuff and still all too common. Remember that Giardia can be carried by any animal (including us, naturally) and can spread very easily into a watersource. These are also cyst organisms, so they're pretty tough and hard to kill with chemicals. Even more fun (for those of you who consider bleach) the CDC now reports that there is an increase in chlorine-resistant Cryptosporidium, which was first seen around 1980. We still have several thousand cases of these and other water-borne diseases in the U.S. every year.

So, do you take you chances like many of the previous posters and hope you're as lucky as they were? Up to you, and the odds are on your side just as they are that you won't be hit by a train if you cross the tracks without looking. But the results if your luck fails are ugly and can be hike-ending. Most people take weeks to recover from Giardia or Cryptosporidium infection, for instance. So why take a chance?

I always filter, period. And for those of you who wonder, I make sure that untreated water does not enter my body (I don't swim on the trail in any case, so that's a bit easier than it sounds.) So I brush, etc. only with filtered. I've considered a SteriPen and may well switch to one, but either way the point is the same: use a method that will work against everything you might encounter, which rules out chemical treatment.

You may very well be fine without water treatment, but it's a bad risk to save a few ounces. Besides, that cold spring water will be just as cold and nice out of the filter or SteriPen treatment as it is straight out of the spring (and no taste change either, unless there's something wrong with your filter) so it's not like you're going to miss anything by treating you water.

BTW Mags, I doubt that what those experts define as a "remote, high alpine setting" applies to anywhere on the AT.

Mags
01-27-2009, 23:44
BTW Mags, I doubt that what those experts define as a "remote, high alpine setting" applies to anywhere on the AT.



Gawd..you guys take yourselves way too seriously.

Do you guys just collect gear and rhapsodize about your widgets?

BTW..there are enough springs on ridgelines, even on the AT, where I'd take a chance.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. It's just gear. Do what works for you and quit posting like we are at church.

I still stand by my original posting. A bit more balanced opinion that most. :)


Some people will drink out of every cow-pattie infested, smelly water puddle without even using a drop of iodine. Others will filter, treat chemically and boil water three times before drinking from the clearest Sierra spring 12000 feet above anything. Most people are somewhere in between. .... but sufficient to say most people do use some form of water treatment.

AND


Treat water when in doubt, but more importantly listen to Mom and wash those hands!


(remember what I said about knives and water filters???? Egads).




Finally, some more humor:

http://stamper.uvm.edu/images/mlw/Cryptyisback_8351/crypty_tshirt5.gif

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38753

Cheers!

Tinker
01-28-2009, 00:00
I use this http://www.thebackpacker.com/gear/water_filters/first_need_water_filter.php
More to remove human chemical contaminants than biological bugs. In more developed areas that the trail passes through water may be somewhat scarce or very polluted. Blue food dye is included with the filter. If it doesn't filter out the dye, it isn't working. I dropped one on the kitchen floor and broke the inner matrix, so they're not bombproof, but they're the only filter certified to remove viruses.

Strategic
01-28-2009, 00:13
I don't know Mags, when someone asks for advice on a serious subject I take that seriously enough not to give them flip answers or shoot from the hip with what may well be irrelevant or misapplied information. And I also don't advise newbies to take risks without making those risks plain. That's why I sought to correct you about the alpine thing; that really does apply to places like 12,000' in the Sierras rather than the average elevations and locations on the AT.

As for the rest, I'm an information person, it's what I do anyway so I naturally bring that here and apply it. If you find that tedious, then why read it and bother to comment? Skip it and let those who appreciate a little planning and thought share what they know and give others what they need to make their own choices fully informed.

beakerman
01-28-2009, 01:17
well like I said--been there, done that, got sick--I ain't going back and doing it again...not being preachy just trying to keep someone else from making the same mistake I made. Obviously not every body is as unlucky as I am though so take it with a grain of salt so to speak...

ozarkman
01-28-2009, 03:07
I always treat all water as contaminated, tablets have a shelf life so remember to keep them up to date, for best results use a filter pump such as this one:

http://jbhgear.com/MSR-MiniWorks-EX-Microfilter-Water-Filter/A/B0013K6ALE.htm

Lone Wolf
01-28-2009, 04:51
Okay, usually I'm a "do what you like for yourself" kind of guy, but this is one area where it's just silly, all the stories of those who've been lucky not withstanding. Contamination of water is possible at any watersource, regardless of location or apparent clarity and cleanliness, from multiple possible organisms and vectors (for its arrival in the water.) We're lucky in the U.S. that we don't have any serious problems with viral water-borne diseases, but that's our only real advantage. Both Giardia and Cryptosporidium are nasty stuff and still all too common. Remember that Giardia can be carried by any animal (including us, naturally) and can spread very easily into a watersource. These are also cyst organisms, so they're pretty tough and hard to kill with chemicals. Even more fun (for those of you who consider bleach) the CDC now reports that there is an increase in chlorine-resistant Cryptosporidium, which was first seen around 1980. We still have several thousand cases of these and other water-borne diseases in the U.S. every year.

So, do you take you chances like many of the previous posters and hope you're as lucky as they were? Up to you, and the odds are on your side just as they are that you won't be hit by a train if you cross the tracks without looking. But the results if your luck fails are ugly and can be hike-ending. Most people take weeks to recover from Giardia or Cryptosporidium infection, for instance. So why take a chance?

I always filter, period. And for those of you who wonder, I make sure that untreated water does not enter my body (I don't swim on the trail in any case, so that's a bit easier than it sounds.) So I brush, etc. only with filtered. I've considered a SteriPen and may well switch to one, but either way the point is the same: use a method that will work against everything you might encounter, which rules out chemical treatment.

You may very well be fine without water treatment, but it's a bad risk to save a few ounces. Besides, that cold spring water will be just as cold and nice out of the filter or SteriPen treatment as it is straight out of the spring (and no taste change either, unless there's something wrong with your filter) so it's not like you're going to miss anything by treating you water.

BTW Mags, I doubt that what those experts define as a "remote, high alpine setting" applies to anywhere on the AT.

ahhh. paranoia. 5 thru-hikes and 6000 others AT miles and i never got no geeardea or other BS from unfltered/untreated water. wasn't no luck either. the water is safe

mudhead
01-28-2009, 06:58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphnia

Lots of these in Maine water. Fun to watch them in a clear bag. Bet they gob up a filter.

Did one of those pushup drink your fill things once. Stood up very pleased while everyone pointed at a half rotted muskrat? about three feet out. Bout blew chunks. But I lived. (No kisses that night.)

Toolshed
01-28-2009, 08:50
Ditto for me. And in those 50 responses, you'll get at least 51 opinions.

In town, people buy bottled spring water. On the trail, when faced with the actual spring, people will treat or filter it like town water. Funny/sad.
If it's Nestle sa Pure Waters, it probably is the Delaware River. They have been trying to increase their rights to the Delaware for quite some time to keep up with consumption.

Toolshed
01-28-2009, 08:53
My water filter is like my concealed weapon. I almost always carry, but use depends on the circumstances I encounter.

TrippinBTM
01-28-2009, 10:45
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphnia

Lots of these in Maine water. Fun to watch them in a clear bag. Bet they gob up a filter.

haha, they get the little guys drunk in experiments, then give them coffee to sober 'em up! That's great!

Mags
01-28-2009, 14:59
If you find that tedious, then why read it and bother to comment? Skip it and let those who appreciate a little planning and thought share what they know and give others what they need to make their own choices fully informed.

But I did give correct info based on my experience and that of others. You just disagree with it. You think there are cooties everywhere. I say be a bit moderate about it. Anyway, something about teaching a pig to sing comes to mind. Finito. Cheers! :)

mudhead
01-28-2009, 15:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIQKjhW6Ti4

Sucked down a monster load of crystal clear Idaho water once. Next day I saw a reservoir with a three strand running down into it. Little further up was a cow, knee deep, with it's tail up. Yummy.

I wish I had treated.

I worry more about beaver ponds in Maine.

Johnny Swank
01-28-2009, 15:49
Just for giggles, I plugged some data in from my AT Thru-hiker study.

Quick/dirty results:

-Less than 8% (32 out of 412) of hikers believed "bad water caused you illness"
-No strong correlations whatsoever between type of treatment and/or frequency of treatment and illness.
-Respondents to this question represent about 828,000 trail-miles of experience.

Do what you want, but I'd say concentrating on keeping your hands and pots clean is far more important than anything you do regarding water.

I'll put up more in-depth stuff later, but the results of what I've written up so far are located at http://sourcetosea.net/category/at-thru-hiker-study/

CaptChaos
01-28-2009, 23:19
Like someone said before you will get a lot of answers to your question.

I have always filtered and I am one to tell you to make sure you filter is clean and that you remember to clean it out after your trip.

About 2 years ago I was on my way to Spence field via Bote Mtn Trail and I pumped some water from the stream. Just like I had done many times in the past. No issues until I got home 2 days later and lets just say that it was not pretty.

Then I remembered that I had just thrown the filter into my pack and I had not even cleaned it up since my last trip a year before. It was my own fault but I still got sick.

Now when I come back home I pump clean water and then pump clean water with a lot of bleach to shock the system and kill everything.

While what I had did not last that long I know that it was my filter that caused the issue.

I can tell you from experience that I was on a business trip in Mexico and I remember the meal that I was having when I ate raw salad that was on my plate. I did not even think about it at the time and then next day I flew back to the States. I left at 8am in the morning and was back in Nashville, TN by 2 pm. At 5pm that evening we had dinner but I did not eat as I was not feeling good. That night it started and by the next morning I was asking my wife to take me to the doctor.

After the test the Dr. told me that I had brought some little friends back from Mexico with me. While the Dr. had a good laugh I found a real easy way to lose weight.

The problem with some of the bugs is that they last for a long time and that is after a lot of drugs get pumped into your system. My little trip keep me feeling bad for about 2 months before all of the issues went away.

My vote is to filter. Been there and got the shirt but had to use it when I ran out of TP.

John

slow
01-29-2009, 00:08
FL. has swamp water and i never used a filter.:-?

amac
01-29-2009, 21:26
I guess I must be overly cautious. I carry a 4-liter platy tank. REGARDLESS of the water source (crystal clear fast moving stream or standing puddle) I fill the tank and drop 4 MicroPur tablets in. Then after a while, I use a filter to pump it into my Camelbak or pot. I get so little opportunity to get out and hike that there's no way in H___ I'm going to let a little bugger shorten my trips.

TrippinBTM
01-30-2009, 17:01
I guess I must be overly cautious. I carry a 4-liter platy tank. REGARDLESS of the water source (crystal clear fast moving stream or standing puddle) I fill the tank and drop 4 MicroPur tablets in. Then after a while, I use a filter to pump it into my Camelbak or pot. I get so little opportunity to get out and hike that there's no way in H___ I'm going to let a little bugger shorten my trips.

See for me it's almost a philosophical point. Why shouldn't I trust the water? I'm out there to be part of nature, right? Why put all our machines and technology between me and it? The point is to break out of the cultural cocoon.

That in addition to my other post is my reasoning; plus that there doesn't seem to be any variation in the percentage of sickness between those who filter, those who treat with chemicals, and those who do nothing.

take-a-knee
01-30-2009, 17:16
But I did give correct info based on my experience and that of others. You just disagree with it. You think there are cooties everywhere. I say be a bit moderate about it. Anyway, something about teaching a pig to sing comes to mind. Finito. Cheers! :)

There are "cooties" nearly everywhere, this is a biological fact, not an opinion, unless you are prepared to state that all those grad-schooled lab coat types are making all this up This brings to mind statements like "Pro wrestling is for real" and "They never landed on the moon".

What enables all this chicanery is the fact that, with a little prudence in selecting water sources, the number of "cooties" most often doesn't exceed the capacity of the average hiker's IGA antibodies contained the Peyer's patches in their alimentary canals to deal with them. This enables you "Lone Wolf" types to brag about hiking sans filter.

I've made about 200 parachute jumps, haven't need a reserve parachute yet, I know several guys with well over a thousand, none have had a reserve ride yet. They all still jump with one though.

If you've ever had or treated someone for coccidiosis or giardiasis like I have, you'd likely change your opinion on water treatment.

take-a-knee
01-30-2009, 18:17
check out the aquamira frontier pro. that is what i am taking.

That filter is designed to back up Aqua Mira drops, not as a stand alone filter. The drops won't touch protozoans, the micropore size of the filter will catch the larger protozoans but will not adequately filter bacteria.

MileMonster
01-30-2009, 19:08
My $.02:

Lots of hikers on the AT means increased risk bugs that infect humans are in the water, even in springs. Every time is a roll of the dice. Might be fine, might get something. You can take your chances or filter/treat; up to you. I filtered long ago, treat with Polar Pur the last 8 yrs or so. One bottle of Polar Pur will last the whole AT and then some. I wouldn't carry a filter on a thru hike - too heavy.

- MM.

Mags
02-02-2009, 19:49
What enables all this chicanery is the fact that, with a little prudence in selecting water sources, the number of "cooties" most often doesn't exceed the capacity of the average hiker's IGA antibodies



We agree!!!!

...be sure to pay attention to basic hygiene as well. Consensus is that lack of basic hygiene causes more GI illnesses than bad water.

Here's what I wrote. I don't know why you guys are so uptight. Maybe you should all actually do outdoor stuff? ;)

Treat water when in doubt, but more importantly listen to Mom and wash those hands!

We basically all agree..no?


Cheers!

ps. "Cooties" is a generic term. I'm just not taking this exchange as serious as you all. :)

ChinMusic
02-02-2009, 20:13
I've made about 200 parachute jumps, haven't need a reserve parachute yet, I know several guys with well over a thousand, none have had a reserve ride yet. They all still jump with one though.
I think this analogy hits it dead on.

You don't need to treat water on the AT until you need to.

garlic08
02-02-2009, 20:18
I just noticed that this thread is in the "Thru-hiker Specific Topics" section. With that in mind, I've only heard of one successful thru-hiker on any trail who started hiking with a pump-type filter finish with a pump-type filter. Most thru-hikers I've met use non-mechanical means of purifying, if at all. It's a reliability issue, mainly. Same reason alcohol stoves are so nice--nothing to break.

Has anyone else had a pump last over 2000 miles?

By the way, the OP predicted 50 replies to his question. 55 and counting!

TrippinBTM
02-02-2009, 22:16
I know of several people who's pump filter lasted the whole AT. Admittedly, they didn't filter all the time, I even convinced one of them to almost abandon it except for really questionable water (much as I used my iodine only when I absolutely had to).

Yeah, that's right, I'm all about converting people away from treating/filtering. Just call me Moccasin the Missionary. :D

ozarkman
02-02-2009, 23:40
I personally treat all water on the trail as contaminated. Better to be safe than sorry in my opinion. Why risk the chance to ruin your trip due to some illness that could have been prevented? Tablets are ok but they do have a shelf life and you need to watch the dates, also...some tablets leave a taste in the water that may not be desireable, for best results use a pump. such as a Katadyn micro pump,

http://jbhgear.com/Katadyn-Pocket-Water-Microfilter/A/B0007U00YE.htm

Many others work well and cost less but this is a good one.

take-a-knee
02-03-2009, 00:02
We agree!!!!

...be sure to pay attention to basic hygiene as well. Consensus is that lack of basic hygiene causes more GI illnesses than bad water.

Here's what I wrote. I don't know why you guys are so uptight. Maybe you should all actually do outdoor stuff? ;)

Treat water when in doubt, but more importantly listen to Mom and wash those hands!

We basically all agree..no?


Cheers!

ps. "Cooties" is a generic term. I'm just not taking this exchange as serious as you all. :)

Mags, we don't agree on workout programs but I wholeheartedly agree with you about poor hygiene likely giving more people the trots than bad water. I'll still tote and use my nine ounce ULA clone gravity filter though. I always have katadyn micropur tabs for backup also.

Sly
02-03-2009, 00:39
I think this analogy hits it dead on.

You don't need to treat water on the AT until you need to.

I don't suppose Giardia is a pleasant experience but it will run it course or drugs will take care of the problem. On the other hand, failure when you jump out of a plane is instant death.

There's lots of thing you don't need until you could possibly need on the trail. I don't carry many of them.

Lone Scout
02-03-2009, 02:15
Good hygiene and heads up water sourcing is all you need.

Rockhound
02-03-2009, 12:10
You are much more likely to catch something from other hikers than a contaminated water source. I don't filter and have never gotten sick. Just be selective in your water sources and boil your water when necessary.

jersey joe
02-03-2009, 13:50
Start out with a water filter and if you aren't using it, send it home.

SonrisaJo
02-03-2009, 14:24
I used my Steripen for a total of 2 weeks on one set of batteries, no problems. Also, as long as you don't throw it around and step on it, it should be fine. It comes in a case. My father got giardia once on a family trip, and you know, it's worth a few extra ounces and a few minutes here and there to guarantee it won't happen to me. Good luck in your decision!

take-a-knee
02-03-2009, 15:35
I don't suppose Giardia is a pleasant experience but it will run it course or drugs will take care of the problem. On the other hand, failure when you jump out of a plane is instant death.

There's lots of thing you don't need until you could possibly need on the trail. I don't carry many of them.

There are parasites out there that there is no cure for, cryptosporidium comes to mind, but that usually doesn't do a lot of damage to healthy people but once you get it, you've likely got it for life, just something else to make you s#hit you diaper in the nursing home one day. There are others that are MUCH worse, like filariasis, the chances of infection of something like that are small, sort of like a properly trained parachutist having a properly packed parachute malfunction. The analogy is perfect, but this one certainly applies, do you feel lucky.....?

phillycheze
02-03-2009, 21:07
well.

i read that more cases of giarida are caused by dirt under fingernails than bad water. so, the wash ur hands thing is looking pretty sweet. so what about hand sanitizer when u can't use water to wash?

also, what aquamira product are yall talking about? they have a few drops...

garlic08
02-03-2009, 22:14
well.

i read that more cases of giarida are caused by dirt under fingernails than bad water. so, the wash ur hands thing is looking pretty sweet. so what about hand sanitizer when u can't use water to wash?

also, what aquamira product are yall talking about? they have a few drops...

Most hikers who carry Aquamira use this: http://www.mcnett.com/Aquamira-Water-Treatment-Drops-P208.aspx (http://www.mcnett.com/Aquamira-Water-Treatment-Drops-P208.aspx)

I also believe in the hand washing idea, also keeping people's hands out of your food. Share by pouring into their hands. And don't shake hands with sick people!

I've seen people use alcohol-based hand sanitizer, but I don't use it. I've heard hand washing as much mechanical as chemical, so I'll use pine needles, leaves, sage, sand, etc if water's not available. I know it sounds hokey, but is has always worked for me.

MileMonster
02-04-2009, 11:22
Re: hand sanitizer -

Hand gel and/or baby wipes are a fair idea. I've used both in the past. Not sure which is lighter but wipes allow me to scrub my hands better. One caveat to wipes - when packed for a while the smell in wipes can permeate into other things, even through a ziplock. Ex. - when I preped for my thru I bought a big supply of baby wipes, put some in zip locks and then put them in my maildrops. When I got the maildrop months later I could actually smell the handwipe in some of my meals that were also in ziplocks. Oh well, at least my hands were clean, lol.

Anyway, sometimes the cleanest and most cautious get sick. It is a hike, after all, and you will be dirty, grimy, muddy and cruddy. Take the precautions you feel appropriate and comfortable with but don't be a walking petri dish that other hikers have to deal with. Have a good hike.

StubbleJumper
02-04-2009, 13:17
I agree about the hand sanitizer. When I visit the thunderbox, I bring baby butt-wipes, paper and Purell to be used to clean the various parts of the body that require cleaning. When used at the end of the process, Purell gives me some degree of comfort that the amount of bacteria remaining on my hands will be very small.

The hand sanitizer is somewhat heavy, but you can buy small bottles (one or two ounces?) to help manage the weight. It is somewhat costly (a couple of bucks per week) compared to washing your hands in a lake, but it might be more effective. It also can be used to disinfect cuts and scrapes, and I have used it to start fires instead of scrounging around for dry tinder.

chrishowe11
02-05-2009, 15:17
I never drink strait water from a river,stream, or anything geardia or how ever u spell it will ruin your life... is it worth the risk? up to you

Hermes
02-05-2009, 19:18
Has anyone used the Platypus Cleanstream filtering system yet? I broke the ceramic element part inside my msr miniworks filter and need a replacement, which costs $40. So I am concidering the cleanstream as another option.

It seems like a very effective product and compared to my miniworks purifier which weighs 18.1oz, the 12.7oz weight is a bonus. Having my filter also serve the purpose of storing water is good as well. Not to mention the whole idea of not having to pump for water.

One of the only downsides in comparing this filter to a purifier, is that it is only a filter and does not remove virus' (which isn't to big of a deal in most places, but a bonus for actually carrying a purifier).

I would be interested in hearing if any one has tried the cleanstream out yet.

amac
02-05-2009, 20:38
These are some quotes from this thread that jump out at me:
be selective
except for really questionable water
treat when in doubt
depends on the circumstances
I am by no means criticizing or chastising those who made them. I openly admit that I am in the bottom 3rd of this audience in terms of experience and knowledge. Heck, that's what I doing here in the first place, trying to fix that. But on the same hand, I consider myself reasonably intelligent. So, I honestly don't know how to make a judgement call as to whether or not to filter/purify. As I stated in an earlier post, I filter AND purify ALWAYS. I would love to be able to stop along a trail, and drink without all the effort. But I simply don't have the knowledge or skill to "know" when the water is ok. For all those folks who selectively decide that some water is ok, some is not, what criteria are you using? How do you look at water and decide, "yup, that's not going to get me sick"?

YoungMoose
02-05-2009, 21:36
solution tablets. i think they are more reliable then filters.

TrippinBTM
02-05-2009, 22:41
But on the same hand, I consider myself reasonably intelligent. So, I honestly don't know how to make a judgement call as to whether or not to filter/purify.

Well then you DO know how to make the judgement call. Give yourself some credit man. It's not rocket science. But hey, if you're not comfortable with the risk, which I contend is small, do what makes you happy. Peace of mind is the main thing.

But I think you're wasting money doing both. Leave the chemicals at home if you're going to carry a pump filter.

Basic criteria for water selection:
*spring water is usually good. Especially in higher elevations. Especially if it has a pipe.
*streams are better at higher elevations than lower.
*small streams are better than big streams (because they drain less area and are thus less likely to collect contaminants)
*if you see sign of cattle or other livestock, don't drink it.
*running water good, still/stagnant water bad.
*if it smells bad, don't drink it.
*stay away from beaver ponds, and the streams that drain them (I've heard mixed things there, but consider them stagnant water and take no chances)
*be leary of anything close to high concentrations of humans.
*if it's been raining a lot, the water is basically just rain, so it should be good. Unless perhaps if it's been dry for a long time (mind you, this is speculation), as it might be like a sudden flush-out of things that have been living in the soil that you won't want to drink.

garlic08
02-05-2009, 22:57
My criterion (only one) is simple. If I see it coming out of the ground, I drink it with absolute confidence. Sometimes when I see water crossing the trail I'll take the time to walk upstream a few yards to find a spring, and I'm always looking for springs along the trail for a good drink. It's amazing how many there are if you look.

With that one criterion, I only used my Aquamira for maybe 10 gallons of water on my AT thru last year.

ChinMusic
02-05-2009, 23:21
It takes me a whole 90 seconds to zap a liter of water with a Steripen. I don't even have to take off my pack. I ain't in a bigger hurry than that.

booger
02-05-2009, 23:28
Hi All,
After carefully reading all the previous posts (wow, this debate is almost as good as the map/no map debate) I would like to humbly, as a newbie to this Forum, to offer my two cents.
First, most of the posts gave good reasons why the treat/don't treat the water they drink along the trail. For the last 30 years most of the hiking I've done has been busting brush mainly looking for new caves (since I am mainly a cave mapper, but want to hike the AT). One thing I have learned through study and experience is that shallow ground water (caves streams and springs) can travel many miles underground before exiting onto the ground or stream. The southern 2/3 of the AT winds through cave rich areas, when you drink from these streams, the recharge areas from these springs may be miles away and you can't see the conditions from which these springs begin or areas that feeds the springs along they way. Water that looks perfectly clean and is really tasty may be full of unseen critters or high amounts of ammonia, etc. For the past 10 years I have participated in testing cave and spring water for bacteria and pollutants. In every case, the water I tested was polluted in some manner, and in most cases, this water contained salmonella to some degree. Because of what I have found, I always filter my water or use a chemical treatment. I am not a doctor, but it is evident that many of you are non- treaters, and may never get sick because you may of built a tolerance to certain bugs or have never gotten a big enough dose to make you sick. I do think that keeping your hands clean goes along way in fighting the spread of disease.

garlic08
02-05-2009, 23:46
One thing I have learned through study and experience is that shallow ground water (caves streams and springs) can travel many miles underground before exiting onto the ground or stream. The southern 2/3 of the AT winds through cave rich areas, when you drink from these streams, the recharge areas from these springs may be miles away and you can't see the conditions from which these springs begin or areas that feeds the springs along they way. Water that looks perfectly clean and is really tasty may be full of unseen critters or high amounts of ammonia, etc...

One more bloody thing to worry about!

TrippinBTM
02-07-2009, 10:47
Hi All,
After carefully reading all the previous posts (wow, this debate is almost as good as the map/no map debate) I would like to humbly, as a newbie to this Forum, to offer my two cents.
First, most of the posts gave good reasons why the treat/don't treat the water they drink along the trail. For the last 30 years most of the hiking I've done has been busting brush mainly looking for new caves (since I am mainly a cave mapper, but want to hike the AT). One thing I have learned through study and experience is that shallow ground water (caves streams and springs) can travel many miles underground before exiting onto the ground or stream. The southern 2/3 of the AT winds through cave rich areas, when you drink from these streams, the recharge areas from these springs may be miles away and you can't see the conditions from which these springs begin or areas that feeds the springs along they way. Water that looks perfectly clean and is really tasty may be full of unseen critters or high amounts of ammonia, etc. For the past 10 years I have participated in testing cave and spring water for bacteria and pollutants. In every case, the water I tested was polluted in some manner, and in most cases, this water contained salmonella to some degree. Because of what I have found, I always filter my water or use a chemical treatment. I am not a doctor, but it is evident that many of you are non- treaters, and may never get sick because you may of built a tolerance to certain bugs or have never gotten a big enough dose to make you sick. I do think that keeping your hands clean goes along way in fighting the spread of disease.

The trick is to remember that germs don't cause disease, they only take advantage of it. That is, if your immune system (your "resistance") is healthy and good, you're not likely to get sick, even if you ingest "germs" which are everywhere, in every breath you take. There's no reason to sterilize your entire environment (as we seem bent on doing here in our cities) but rather to stay healthy and strong.

So, in most of the water out there, there's not enough bugs to overwhelm a healthy immune response. Obviously any wall can be breached with enough soldiers, but most of the time there aren't enough... unless the wall is weak, at which point you need less, maybe even just one. And choosing "good" water sources is about finding water with a likelihood of having fewer germs. Kind of like only choosing your battles to be those against the weak armies.

As for chemical contaminants (like your mention of ammonia), well, that's what a healthy liver is for. Most of your water out in the mountains probably won't have such high levels of the stuff to cause any harm. And your liver is already being given a break by being out in the woods and away from the chemical warzones of our modern cities, and homes full of chemicals.