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MEANT 2B
01-31-2009, 20:34
It's that time of the year. Yeah, you can stay indoors and complain about the weather or you can go outside and do something about it. After years of not having been out doing any backpacking I have finally struck a nerve within myself to get me to think about hitting the trail once again. Only this time instead of heading out for summer hiking I'm looking at winter hiking. Back around 02-03 winters I did several dayhikes in the Whites, pretty much on Lafayette or Moosilaukee, and if the weather forecast hasn't been calling for snow overnight...the past several weeks now I've been sleeping in my hammock outdoors. Yeah, I hit -8 last week as the coldest I've slept out in thus far. Not bad for a piece of junk sleeping bag I bought at Wal-Mart for under $40(hence why I would only use it outdoors during the winter months and have no desire for summer time hiking with it). Anotherwords I can handle both situations without even thinking a thing about it.

It's what lies in between that creates the problems. Not the overnight... not the daytime...rather the morning and evening hours. During this time of the year we don't even have 10 hours of daylight, at least not for a couple more days. I checked and February 3rd we hit the big '10' mark.

Currently I have 1-2 feet of snow in my backyard. I have a big brush pile I created when I cleaned up the property I own several years back. It's roughly 30 feet long, 10-12 feet wide and 5-6 feet tall. If you didn't know it was there you wouldn't miss a thing. It's all covered with snow. None of the pile sticks out. All you see is this big mound of snow??? I can see this being a minor problem when out hiking and trying to kill time in the evenings by starting a campfire. Where you going to get any kindling or the good stuff at when you can't see it???

I keep trying to come up with a way to kill time in the evening hours and the only decent way I can come up with is a campfire. I just don't see how it's feasible under the circumstances. I figure the campfire could easily be used for a warmup spot while setting up the hammock and getting ready for bed and afterwards it could be used to kill time until I'm sleepy. The problem is if you are away from a shelter that may have wood stored underneath or nearby(a few do) where do you find any kindling yet alone firewood when everything is covered with snow?

Also, if camping without a campfire what do you guys do to stay warm while setting up and tearing down...especially tearing down in the morning when you haven't been generating all that body heat from hiking during the day? Do most of you pack up, hike for a while and then stop and eat breakfast or again how do you handle the staying warm part while fixing breakfast? I do realize from having been out overnight in subzero temps several times now over the past few weeks that zero degrees, with no wind, isn't that bad. You just have to get and stay moving rather quickly to be able to get the body generating heat again.

Heck mid to upper 20's on a nice temperature inversion, wall to wall sunshiny, dead calm wind day on top of Moosilaukee will teach you...it's not that bad. When you can tell the instant that a small bit of a breeze has started to blow across the peak(1 mph breeze) then you know it's dead calm wind.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

Toolshed
01-31-2009, 20:56
Read your post an I think you are asking about starting a fire in the winter???

Standing down timber for starters. Unless a place is scraped clean, as is 200 yards around most shelters, there is usually always drier down timber that is off the ground. It isn't easy, but you start small and keep feeding and slowly build up a base. I use bark, twigs, broken branches, pine needles - anything that is fairly dry and will burn. Everything else goes next to the fire to dry out (batter up).

It is better to dig through the snow for a solid base on the ground than to have the fire keep melting into the snow and going out. This is easier said than done when there is 5' of snow on the ground. having tried both ways, it is easier to start it from the ground first. The fire hole has to also be big enough to allow for draft to comedown and be sucked up into the fire from the bottom, as the hot air rises.

MEANT 2B
01-31-2009, 21:20
Do you usually carry an initial starter(lint, paper, etc) with you or do you find that you can find material dry enough that it will reasonably start on it's own.

I guess you can easily say I remember my nightmare attempt at building a campfire my second or third night on the thru-hike. The fire was nice, for someone else. I was too busy chasing material for the fire since I didn't bother to collect enough ahead of time. It was the first time and the only time I've tried to build a campfire.

I do have to say...it never did go out on me until I gave up on it and went to bed. Once I saw I was in a losing battle it didn't take long for me to give up.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

tuswm
01-31-2009, 21:48
its so easy to sleep a good 12-14 hours in the winter if you are warm enough.

tuswm
01-31-2009, 21:50
it the darkness, sometimes a little alchol helps but not to the point of getting up seven times in the middle of the night to pee.

Feral Bill
01-31-2009, 22:12
its so easy to sleep a good 12-14 hours in the winter if you are warm enough.

Best thing about winter camping:)

Wheeler
01-31-2009, 22:30
look for standing deadwoods.Like the man said, if it's picked clean there is usually plenty 100-200yds. from a campsite or shelter.I usually cook breakfast and coffee while still in my bag;either using my tent's vest.,or in a shelter.I use an Espit stove,and somtimes use part of a fuel cube to start stubborn fire's.I found a tube of firestarting goo in a shelter that worked great,but would'nt want to carry or spend on it.If it's really cold, you have to be pretty close to the fire for any significant warmth.I get set up,jump in my bag and stay in it. It's less hassle. That being said-nothing beats a fire for reflecting, talking, or morale in general.

MEANT 2B
01-31-2009, 22:52
That's one glitch in the system. Anymore I won't sleeping on the ground. After seeing Ed at the ALDHA Gathering, I think the first time he did a workshop at the Gathering I sat/laid in the hammock he had setup and fell in love instantly. I rigger one up in my house and pretty much, as long as I'm home, haven't slept on anything else since then. This is going back 4 maybe 5 years now. I have been sleeping outside, as recently as last night, as soon in the next hour or so, in my hammock. I have slept in it at -8 without any trouble(no artifical warmth in the sleeping bag anywhere, no hand/foot warmers, no hot water bottles). At 10 above I was cold within two hours sleeping on the ground with the same sleeping bag, and clothing.

Yeah, it's 1 degree outside right now so I'll probably see another subzero night out in the hammock tonight, AWESOME(do some more testing, want to test moving the pad to a different location and see how that goes, hope it works the same as in the past so I don't have to fight with it after I get in the sleeping bag like I have had to in the past).

When it comes to eating breakfast from a hammock what do any of you guys do. Granted this would be directed at hammockers/hangers and not everyone else.

I guess you can easily say the sleeping part I'm not worried about and the hiking part I'm not worried about. I know under both of those situation I can keep myself warm. It's the moment of arriving at camp until you are in the bag and then again when you get out of the hammock in the morning until you leave camp/have breakfast eaten that I'm still trying to figure out how to do it. It seems like their is big, cold hole left wide open that needs filled somehow.

So far all my sleeping out has been under mostly calm conditions. Add wind and that makes getting to bed and getting up even more of a tricky situation...

Maybe I'm being a little paranoid, LOL!!!

Toolshed
01-31-2009, 23:26
I now hang down to about 45, Lower than that and I feel claustrophobic. I don't have a good winter setup, but then again, I love tent camping in the winter, along with my jack and jello.

shelterbuilder
02-01-2009, 00:25
Like Wheeler said, breakfast and coffee while IN THE BAG. Over the years, I've found that if I bring my shirt (wool) into the bag for the overnight, I can put my shirt on inside of the bag as well (this assumes that my shirt isn't super-sweaty, but that's a different post).

I can't speak to hammock-hanging in the winter - it's tent camping all the way during the winter months.

I rarely build a fire anymore - in winter, I just get the tent up ASAP and climb into the bag and stay there except to answer nature's call. Yes, I do what they tell you NOT to do: I cook inside my tent's vestibule, but I ALWAYS allow adequate ventilation to get rid of the carbon monoxide that the stove generates (and the water vapor generated by cooking). By cooking/eating breakfast while I'm still inside of my sleeping bag, I can "stoke the internal fire" and start generating heat for breaking camp.

If you do build a campfire, make sure that you have a generous supply of wood before the sun goes down. A small fire with a reflector-wall on one side will keep you warmer for a longer time (and use less wood) than a roaring bonfire. Get close to the fire - fire is your friend - hold your coat open to catch some extra heat! And don't forget to rig up a windbreak for yourself and your fire (an old, small, lightweight tarp works well).

MEANT 2B
02-01-2009, 08:04
Who gets out of the bag to answer nature's call. I don't. Come on I thought hikers knew what PB was for, it isn't for calories it for the jar, dummies. From the time I get into the bag/hammock until I'm ready to head back into the house in the morning I don't unzip more than maybe, at the most, the first foot of the sleeping bag. Just enough so I reach my arm out of the sleeping bag to empty the jar over the side of the hammock. On the real nice cold nights, subzero(unlike last night, was zero when I went to bed at 10:30 and 10 above by 6:30 this morning), I don't have to let cold air into my sleeping bag, I just do my thing right into the PB jar and then dump it over the side of the hammock. Life is grand.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

Rambler
02-01-2009, 09:43
Before you are in camp, slow down the pace of your hike to avoid overheating and sweating. If you have overheated, change into dry clothes. When you stop walking that sweat will freeze on your back. Wear liner gloves and never remove them, well, almost never. Take extra fuel, so you can boil snow to get water. Stay hydrated Dehydration contributes to hypothermia. You do not need a campfire, but fire starting skills in winter are good to have or be confident about. Remember that large logs or dead trees do not have to be broken into small sections. Lay the ends over your fire and just keep pushing them in as they burn. Read that Jack London story. (Someone else might remember the title) To keep your water from freezing during the night you can put water bottle at the bottom of your bag or in your bag. Not sure how it will rest in a hammock. Or bury it in the snow, near ground level the temp under snow should be right around 32 degrees F. Remember to mark the burial spot somehow, so you can find it in the morning. (While hiking, carry your water bottle upside down. Water freezes from the top down, so when you flip it back around to drink, you will still find open water.) If the snow is deep enough, at least up to your knees, stomp out a trench, pack the surrounding snow and you have a nice bench to sit on as you cook and eat. Every thing just takes a bit longer to do in the winter cold. Packs are heavier, clothes more bulky, work has to be done with gloves or mittens on. So, do not plan to hike as far as you might in the summer and stop around 3 or so to leave plenty of time to set up camp in the daylight. Don't forget your pee bottle. A key to winter camping is staying warm enough in your bag, so that you get a good night's sleep, and, having at least a layer of clothes to put on when you get up, ie. do not sleep wearing all you have.
Read up on building a snow cave. Experiment in your back yard. Just pile up a bunch of snow larger than your body. It will take the shape of a modified igloo. Pat it down. Wait an hour add more snow pat it down. Stick in a couple of ski poles about a foot into the roof near the head end. When you dig out the tunnel or cave until you see the pole ends, you will know how thick the ceiling is. Remove the poles and you have air holes. The cave will add about 10 degrees of warmth, if you sleep in it. There are lightweight shovels made for winter backpacking. Enjoy the cold. Have fun.

MEANT 2B
02-01-2009, 10:27
Thanks for the reminder on water freezing top down. Even though I have known that for ages I have never really thought much about it or paid any kind of attention to. You got my attention.

As for keeping water bottles warm. Try this idea, I've did it each of the past two nights and I'm amazed at how well it works. Take BOTH hot water bottles and put them down inside of your boots, put your boots in a plastic trash bag and stick it down at the foot of the sleeping bag. You can feel the warmth all night long and come morning you still have warm water.

Panzer1
02-01-2009, 16:31
Most people don't bother to build a camp fire at night because its too much trouble. Its usually picked clean in the area around the shelter so you have to go about 100 yard or so to find firewood. Part of the problem with doing that is that you are leaving your gear unattended while you are away.

But if you really want a decent camp fire bring a folding camp saw. With that you will find firewood right next to the shelter that others hikers could not use because they didn't have a folding camp saw to cut it. With a saw you can quickly and easily generate a lot of firewood in a reasonable short time. And with 2 people, you can take turns cutting and turn out firewood like you were on an assembly line.

You can get a decent folding camp saw that will weigh about a pound or less. And yea, its extra weight, one more thing to carry. But if you want a quick, easy and decently large campfire, a proper saw is what you need.

This is the one that I have, a timber ridge folding camp saw: (weight 14 ounces)
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/316,73428_Columbia-Sportswear-Timber-Ridge-Folding-Camp-Saw.html?&cm_mmc=Affiliate-_-LinkShare-_-www.shopwiki.com-_-WUqD6wTpSTg&siteID=WUqD6wTpSTg-PUTd9WF.Kd0.EN49FzQE.A&codesProcessed=true

I've read on some other threads about guys who claim they can use their K-BAR knives to cut firewood. I laugh at that. Just get a saw if you want a camp fire in an established camp site in the winter.

Of course another option is to not stay in an established camp site where things are picked clean. Just set up your own camp well away from a shelter and you will probable find enough firewood to build a decent fire without a saw.


Panzer

wrongway_08
02-01-2009, 21:58
its so easy to sleep a good 12-14 hours in the winter if you are warm enough.

Dont forget to bring the pee bottle in the bag with you .... or you'll be stepping into the cold and up for another hour getting rewarmed! :sun

SteveJ
02-02-2009, 02:22
<clip>...the past several weeks now I've been sleeping in my hammock outdoors. Yeah, I hit -8 last week as the coldest I've slept out in thus far. <clip>

Hi, MEANT 2B. What kind of pad are you using? I assume you're using a 0 deg bag - what else to keep warm?

Toolshed
02-02-2009, 10:36
Most people don't bother to build a camp fire at night because its too much trouble. Its usually picked clean in the area around the shelter so you have to go about 100 yard or so to find firewood. Part of the problem with doing that is that you are leaving your gear unattended while you are away.

But if you really want a decent camp fire bring a folding camp saw. With that you will find firewood right next to the shelter that others hikers could not use because they didn't have a folding camp saw to cut it. With a saw you can quickly and easily generate a lot of firewood in a reasonable short time. And with 2 people, you can take turns cutting and turn out firewood like you were on an assembly line.

You can get a decent folding camp saw that will weigh about a pound or less. And yea, its extra weight, one more thing to carry. But if you want a quick, easy and decently large campfire, a proper saw is what you need.

This is the one that I have, a timber ridge folding camp saw: (weight 14 ounces)
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/316,73428_Columbia-Sportswear-Timber-Ridge-Folding-Camp-Saw.html?&cm_mmc=Affiliate-_-LinkShare-_-www.shopwiki.com-_-WUqD6wTpSTg&siteID=WUqD6wTpSTg-PUTd9WF.Kd0.EN49FzQE.A&codesProcessed=true

I've read on some other threads about guys who claim they can use their K-BAR knives to cut firewood. I laugh at that. Just get a saw if you want a camp fire in an established camp site in the winter.

Of course another option is to not stay in an established camp site where things are picked clean. Just set up your own camp well away from a shelter and you will probable find enough firewood to build a decent fire without a saw.


Panzer
Yeah - The Sawzall with a double battery pack!!!! :D
Seriously, great thought Panzer. I had forgotten about it - a saw works wonders in winter. I carry a 14" collapsible Sven Saw in the winter. I have had it for at least 18 years and still on the same blade - It gets used regularly in winter as well as impromptu trail maintenance.

sasquatch2014
02-02-2009, 11:08
I think in some ways it's easier in the winter for wood as this is the time of year with the added weight of the snow that a lot of wood comes down. I have been working on trail manner with my pup and we have a camp set up back on some of my grandmothers property back by a waterfall. Yep I'm blessed over 300 acres to roam and play on. We go back and make a fire and hang out. Almost cowboyed it a few nights back but the pup was getting really cold low teens by the time I got back to the house at midnight. Got to the camp by 4:30 gathered some wood and then built the fire.

For starting it I use sawdust and diesel mixed so the saw dust soaks it up and put it in a small tight container. A small pile of it, say about 3/4 cup is plenty to get sticks a bit bigger than my finger to get going with no problem. This saves having to gather tons of the small stuff. Lots of time you will see a stick poking up out of the snow if you check it out a lot of times there is more of it buried. A bit of ice is no issue when the fire has a good hot bed of coals.

ASUGrad
02-02-2009, 15:39
There is always a lot of good firewood attached to trees. A limb dies and just stays there. They are off the ground so they are not as wet. Fire starter is found by reaching into pine trees and collecting small dead limbs.

Slo-go'en
02-02-2009, 16:16
Using one of your snowshoes as a shovel, dig down as far as you can to the ground and remove as much snow as possable from around where your going to build the fire. Then make a platform (say 3 X 3 feet) out of the thickest pieces of wood as you can manage to build the fire on. Besides a saw, having a 6 foot piece of nylon strap is handy to bundle up a bunch of wood and to drag back to your site with.

Mags
02-02-2009, 19:20
I used to do a fair amount of winter camping. Even to the point where I've made and slept in an igloo.
(http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,36/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=17917)
Then I discovered backcountry huts. :)

This past weekend, I skied in the backcountry for three days. I also drank a bit of vino, and made garlic and rosemary infused pork loin for my friend's 40th b-day.

Anyway...

You are in New Hampshire. Have you thought of building and sleeping in a snow cave? They get pretty warm (for winter) and are much more comfortable to sleep in than in a tent for winter camping IMO. Takes some work..but it can be fun! (And truth be told, a simple snow cave for one is relatively quick to build)

Tinker
02-02-2009, 19:33
YOU (the hiker) need to be warm, not the SNOW. Don't waste your fuel heating water to stick into a snow bank. Use your stove to heat water and put the water bottle into a sock and put the sock and bottle into your jacket. When you go to bed, put it into your sleeping bag. You'll sleep warmer and your water won't only be not frozen but it will be warm in the morning and get you to your hot cereal or drink faster with less waste of fuel. Granted, the snow will keep your water from freezing, but it won't appreciate the warmth your water is giving off as much as you will.

MEANT 2B
02-02-2009, 22:10
At 10 degrees I got cold sleeping on the ground with my 0 degree mummy bag in about two hours. At -8 I didn't get cold at all sleeping in my mummy bag in a hammock. Yeah, there were a few differences but even with a fair comparison I have found the hammock to be much more comfortable and warmer than sleeping on the ground. No ground sleeping for me anymore. Actually I've been sleeping in my house in a hammock now for several years(don't own a regular bed). Outdoor has been something new added to the hammock lifestyle in the past month or two.

As for water bottles. First two hot water bottles go in the boots to keep them from freezing over during the night. The boots go in a plastic bag and the plastic bag goes down to the bottom of the sleeping bag to help keep your feet warm over night as the boots slowly release the heat out of the water bottles. Like was said before you wake up to warm water from the get go. The only problem with this is the fact it does get a little crowded down at the bottom of the sleeping bag.

Next if you have a cold water bottle, I did last night when I went winter backpacking for the first time(trip report "The widest path of greatest resistance"), stick the water bottle in the sleeping bag with you and when you pee in your 40 oz peanut butter jar cap it off and sit/lay it right next to the cold water bottle. You'll be amazed how much it will absorb the heat from your urine and warm the cold water bottle up overnight. Anytime you have to empty the PB jar just refill it and put it right back beside you until the next time you have to use it. That's the way I'm doing it from now on. It serves to keep both you and extra water bottle warm without any need for any outside fuel other than the fuel from your bladder.

I bought two bottles of Gatorade before getting to the trail. I mostly wanted a couple of extra spare bottles handy, safety. I put both of the new bottles in the bottle holders on the outside of the pack for the hike in. The older bottles that I filled with water before leaving home were down inside the pack. I got to camp and nothing was frozen, granted air temperature was 32-34 degrees so it realy couldn't have frozen. I drank the one bottle during supper and the other bottle I took to bed with me, still unopened to see if I could keep it from MAYBE freezing up over night. It was cold laying beside so I thought about doing the urine trick and by the time I woke up this morning the unopened bottle of Gatorade was nice and warm. Definitely a trick I will use from now on. Actually the water in the unopened bottle was warmer than the water in boots that I had heated up on the stove before going to bed.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

OldStormcrow
02-03-2009, 09:19
A trick that I have learned while having to sit perfectly still for hours up in a tree in deer season......pee in your bottle, then stick it back inside your jacket.....intant hot water bottle. If you've been drinking enough coffee (or beer) you can keep "warming" up your bottle all night long.

JAK
02-03-2009, 09:33
I'm looking at winter hiking. I have a big brush pile 30 feet long, 10-12 feet wide and 5-6 feet tall all covered with snow. Where you going to get any kindling or the good stuff at when you can't see it??? I keep trying to come up with a way to kill time in the evening hours and the only decent way I can come up with is a campfire. I just don't see how it's feasible under the circumstances. I figure the campfire could easily be used for a warmup spot while setting up the hammock and getting ready for bed and afterwards it could be used to kill time until I'm sleepy. The problem is if you are away from a shelter that may have wood stored underneath or nearby(a few do) where do you find any kindling yet alone firewood when everything is covered with snow?

Also, if camping without a campfire what do you guys do to stay warm while setting up and tearing down...especially tearing down in the morning when you haven't been generating all that body heat from hiking during the day? Do most of you pack up, hike for a while and then stop and eat breakfast or again how do you handle the staying warm part while fixing breakfast?
Some ways to kill time...
1. Make a shelter.
2. Make a candle lantern or vegetable oil lamp for reading.
3. Make tea or soup, using a a small vegetable oil stove.
4. Make a hobostove, or a small campfire, and dry your socks etc.
5. Make a pair of mukluks, or some other hand sewing project.
6. Knit a wool neck tube, or some other knitting project.

Some ways to get wood buried under snow...
1. Bring clothing suitable for playing in snow (wool,fleece,light nylon)
2. Bring something to useful that can also be a shovel, like a shovel.
3. Bring something to cut the wood out in short sections if needed, like a saw, or hatchet.
4. Keep the fire small and you won't need as much, but use it for shelter also.

Some ways to get warm in the morning.
1. Just getting up and making breakfast should be enough with the right clothing.
2. If its really cold, or clothing is wet, then yeah you might need to hike a mile first.
3. If its really cold or your clothing is wet and you need to hike a mile in the morning in order to get warm then you need to bring more clothing, and you should have the means of making a small fire also, and should practice doing so even on the mornings that are not quite that cold. Small fires are good practice because they are very fussy.

Have fun. Don't skimp on clothing.
Using a toboggan or sled can add to the fun also.

JAK
02-03-2009, 09:40
I find winter camping never boring because it's way cool just survivin'.
Don't make it too exciting though. It's way cool even when its done safely.

MEANT 2B
02-03-2009, 10:35
Using a toboggan or sled can add to the fun also.

I would love to see you try to use a toboggan or sled on the AT. Talk about fun that puts a whole new meaning to the word fun. Actually, it would be interesting to go without a pack and hauling it behind but around here I want to see it done. I truly don't think you could get away with it without saying more than enough slang phrase along the way.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

JAK
02-03-2009, 11:05
So don't use it on the AT then.

JAK
02-03-2009, 11:09
dickhead

shelterbuilder
02-03-2009, 13:24
... Using a toboggan or sled can add to the fun also.

There actually ARE sections of the AT where a "sled" can be used, even here in Pa. with all of the rocks. But the sections are usually short (3 to 5 miles or less), and since we don't get that much snow anymore (more ice/ freezing rain than snow), both the rocks and the elevations changes would make it really, really tough. Sleds need lots of snow to cover the rocks and other obstacles, and wider trails with gentler elevation changes. THAT'S when they really perform.