View Full Version : Health Insurance
greenmanner
02-07-2009, 22:26
I have a plan to thru-hike the AT but I'm wondering about health insurance. This would be when I was unemployed (between jobs) and I am considering the cost of buying health insurance. Did anyone do this? Or did those of you without a plan already simply go without? Did anyone have trouble with either acquiring insurance (if you were honest and explained you were hiking for months on end) or after you required treatment?
Thanks for your help. I would like to be able to hike without thinking a bad injury would completely erase all my savings.
It is expensive to have health insurance. However, if in this country you have no choice. One accident could wipe you out.
Look into cobra. If not that look into a temp insurance. Otherwise take your chances.
David
fiddlehead
02-08-2009, 01:21
There's been a few threads on this in the past 2 weeks alone. (and lots before that)
You should use the search feature to find out pros and cons.
It's been debated almost (i said almost) as much as water filters lately.
I say: go without both of them.
Such a decision should take the individual's medical history into consideration.
crazyjames
02-08-2009, 05:32
It's really important to take care of your Healthy (http://www.10facts.com/cat/Health.html)
wcgornto
02-08-2009, 08:27
Did anyone have trouble with either acquiring insurance (if you were honest and explained you were hiking for months on end) or after you required treatment?
The online temporary health insurance offerings do not ask if you are hiking. They generally ask about smoking, extreme obesity and a few pre-existing conditions. The offerings by Assurant Health generally have instant online approval, while other offerings might take a day or two. Those that take a day or two generally do not ask for any followup information in addition to that which was provided online.
For foreign temporary health insurance, there is generally a "hazardous sports" exclusion, which among other things, would exclude hiking above 4500 meters (i.e. approx. 15,000 feet). Generally, this exclusion can be removed for a small additional premium. I have not seen this exclusion on US coverage, since outside of Alaska, there is nothing above this altitude.
I have purchased temporary insurance from ehealthinsurance.com (US) and sevencorners.com (Foreign) without incident or delay, and I do a lot of hiking.
For hiking the AT, the only relevant concerns about coverage exclusions are pre-existing conditions, which would be a concern with individual health insurance coverage whether you are hiking or not.
Rockhound
02-08-2009, 08:54
If you tell you potential provider that you plan to hike in the woods for 6 months he might mark you down as having a preexisting mental condition.
Did anyone have trouble with either acquiring insurance (if you were honest and explained you were hiking for months on end) or after you required treatment?I don't know why they wouldn't insure you for walking every day. Seem like it would be in their interest for you to get regular exercise.
People in the insurance business are in it to generate revenue last I heard.
I'd like to challenge those who suggest searching here for information about health insurance to do as they suggest. Tell us what you find that's helpful and how long takes. I'd really like to know.
Could you provide a link to an especially good thread, a post comparing policy types or costs and their respective risks and benefits? How about a list of providers? I contend it's not the straight-forward exercise some seem to be suggesting and it's why I've proposed an article.
I'd rather see the discussion in the comments section of the article, but I'll take it any way it comes. Next year, I hope to be able to provide a single link which will answer most questions. With the help of those here who have a personal interest and knowledge about this topic, we may be able to do just that.
Toolshed
02-08-2009, 11:00
People in the insurance business are in it to generate revenue last I heard.
With exception of a very small percentage of the population that sacrafice to live in poverty while helping others, isn't that what we are all in this game to do? At some varying level??:sun
People in the insurance business are in it to generate revenue last I heard.and the people they insure are their investments. A healthy person to them is just like a person with a high FICO score to a mortgage company.
fiddlehead
02-08-2009, 11:09
Well I'll post something based on my history.
I stopped my health insurance in 1987 because they refused to pay for an injury where i needed about 7 stitches in my hand. (said i waited more than 24 hours so they wouldn't cover )
I had been paying around $290 or 300 a month.
Since that time, i have done 6 1/2 thru hikes as well as some long distance overseas hikes. (and many shorter hikes) I don't know the total cost of all that hiking but would guess that it was aprox. $4,000 per year that i thru'd and maybe half to 2/3 of that price for the other stuff.
In other words, my savings on my insurance premiums pretty much covered my 20,000 miles of hiking.
On the other hand, i went to hospitals twice in the US. One time it was $300 and the other it was closer to $500 (both times it was spider bites) I paid out of pocket. (i always had the feeling that they wouldn't have paid anyway as again, i waited more than 24 hours before going to a hospital)
I did have to go to a hospital in Australia as i had contacted TB in Nepal and since they have national health care in that country, they wouldn't take my money.
Now if you're unhealthy and prone to disaster, you might not want to try it, but if you like to hike and can't afford it because you are paying insurance...............well
greenmanner
02-08-2009, 11:23
Thanks for all your replies. I justed checked into Assurant temporary insurance. I noticed among the list of things not covered are:
Treatment or services required due to an injury received while engaging in any hazardous occupation or other hazardous activity
I'll bet that if you called up and asked whether breaking an ankle thru-hiking the AT is covered, they would say no way. Maybe someone out there actually looked into this?
The reason I bring this up is that I've heard of people who've gotten injured while hiking (one fellow I knew hiking the CDT) and when they injured themselves the insurance company basically told them to shove it--you shouldn't have been out there in the first place, even if you've been paying us thousands of dollars for years and you've never even gotten sick until now.
Hell of a system we got going here in the states. Everyone I know from other prosperous countries just shakes their head. Me, I'm thinking of getting into the health care biz--doesn't look like the government's going to change anything very quickly, so I figure we all might as well try to make a buck off other people's misery. ;)
I appreciate your response. You approach worked for you. You took risks and you benefitted. I'm not sure everyone could be expected to experience the same outcome you did.
Given what I've read about your accomplishments, it's clear you are an exceptionally healthy person. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd be in the top 5% of the U.S. population or at least once were, but it is true we all get older and as we age the risks involved with going uninsured increase.
Those who have accumulated assets and hope to be secure in their retirement should be especially concerned about protecting their assets they have worked hard to accumulate.
I don't have insurance either.. I haven't in years. Knock on wood. Our lifestyle up here is fairly ruff and the hiking is a ' wreck waiting to happen " so to speak but we can't afford it. and, honestly, don't worry too much. I worry more for Brad as he has had cancer and an ulcer and they cost him in many more ways then $ . I seem to be healthy as a horse for NOW. We both know that our lifestyle choices are our responsiblility but we wouldn't change a thing.
Keep thinking, asking questions and posting your thoughts. I'm interested in learning what through hikers in your position are thinking and want to know how we can help provide the kind of information desired in a form that is easily accessible.
fiddlehead
02-08-2009, 21:51
Gotta say something here.
I just got back from my morning jog.
Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it feels like work.
Today was one of the latter.
When i have these kind of days, and start to wonder why i do this to myself, it reminds me that it is keeping me healthy. I believe that 3 days a week ( or more) of a good cardio vascular workout is my alternative to paying health insurance.
I rarely get sick but i know a guy who jogs everyday and has been sick 2 days out of the last 18 years!
I have another friend who jogs because every male in his family has died before his 55th birthday (my friend jogs everyday and is now 56 years old)
Usually i jog because I love it, but today, i jogged for my health.
greenmanner
02-09-2009, 08:21
Well, fiddlehead I generally agree with you that exercise is the way to stay healthy--head and shoulders above going to the doctor all the time. But accidents do happen and that's what I'm concerned about. Couple weeks ago I was walking on the sidewalk going to work (after a winter storm), was dodging some ice, and slipped, falling on and twisting my knee very badly. I managed to walk back to my home due to adrenaline, but I know if I'd been carrying a pack or walking on hills, I wouldn't have been able to make it. It was just a little reminder that you can hurt yourself when you least suspect it. The knee took a week to get better, and now is pretty much fine--but if I had 50 pounds on my back when I slipped, it could have torn a ligament instead of just spraining it.
A friend of mine was thru-hiking the CDT, made it all the way from the Mexican border to Montana, slipped on some loose rocks, and tore tendons in his ankle. Couldn't put any way weight on it and had to lay there for four days until somebody came along. Luckily that guy had good (New Zealand) health insurance.
I just wish we call could live our lives without this whole health insurance problem hanging over our heads. I'd be somewhat happy if a US insurance company just created a "temporary thru-hiker plan" that was reasonable in cost--I'm sure the statistics show we're one of the safest, healthiest groups to "invest" in. Any insurance people on this board? :)
Gotta say something here.
I just got back from my morning jog.
Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it feels like work.
Today was one of the latter.
When i have these kind of days, and start to wonder why i do this to myself, it reminds me that it is keeping me healthy. I believe that 3 days a week ( or more) of a good cardio vascular workout is my alternative to paying health insurance.
I rarely get sick but i know a guy who jogs everyday and has been sick 2 days out of the last 18 years!
I have another friend who jogs because every male in his family has died before his 55th birthday (my friend jogs everyday and is now 56 years old)
Usually i jog because I love it, but today, i jogged for my health.
I have a plan to thru-hike the AT but I'm wondering about health insurance. This would be when I was unemployed (between jobs) and I am considering the cost of buying health insurance. Did anyone do this? Or did those of you without a plan already simply go without? Did anyone have trouble with either acquiring insurance (if you were honest and explained you were hiking for months on end) or after you required treatment?
Thanks for your help. I would like to be able to hike without thinking a bad injury would completely erase all my savings.
Personally I think its irresponsible to thru-hike without some sort of health ins. unless you've got nothing to protect.
Red Beard
12-01-2009, 15:17
Since I'll be quitting my job to do my thru, I'll need some "affordable" insurance during my hike. Did any of you use any type of "traveler's health insurance" during your thru? If so, do you remember the insurance carrier, and the approximate cost?
If you've read or read the threads linked to the aforementioned article and found or find something useful, post indicating what was useful in its comments.
DrRichardCranium
12-01-2009, 17:36
Personally I think its irresponsible to thru-hike without some sort of health ins. unless you've got nothing to protect.
I'm not so sure. Purchasing health insurance independently can be expensive. I am 45 years old & am fit & healthy. I almost never get sick & have no history of long term health problems. Health insurance companies make a lot of money off people like me, because I almost never need a doctor.
I am planning to thru-hike next year, but I'm thinking that purchasing health insurance would cost me more in premiums than it would be worth, even if I have to pay out-of-pocket for something.
I don't know what the probability of an A.T. through hiker picking up Lyme disease might be or how much one could expect to spend, but I'd think even a healthy through hiker who isn't accident prone is at a higher risk to get it than someone in the general population.
Going without health insurance is not a wise idea. Even if you think you are a healthy individual - think of what else can result in a debt you may be trying to pay back for the rest of your life (or having to file bankruptcy). Injury as a result of someone else's carelessness, who has no (car) insurance and no money to speak of, may cost you thousands.
I especially wouldn't go without it while you are doing something (like hiking) that could result in injury.
It's not too difficult to aquire insurance. My husband and I must get our own insurance since we are both students. We don't have student insurance - we have a plan with Humana. We pay less than $100/month for both of us. We have a plan with high coverage (catastrophic) but also a high deductible. So at least we won't be SOL if something really bad happens.
It took about a month for it to be effective and insurance companies like to hook you with a low price and then increase it at the start of the new year (we have switched companies 3 times because of this).
Kudos to those of you who've gone without it and have yet to need it. Kind of like playing Russian roulette with your bank account!
malowitz
12-01-2009, 19:47
have very good health insurance now, but the Cobra premiums ($600/mo) will be a crimp in hopeful thru-hiking plans.
I've taken a gander at some 6-month policies through esurance.com. I think premiums were around $200-$500 for 6 months. Various deductibles/maximum out of pocket amounts available.
I haven't advanced the investigation beyond this phase yet. I recommend you give it a shot to see what is out there. It does relate to your home zip code. How this affects the idea of injury while hiking elsewhere and will they pay out - I have no idea.
I donated an organ. This can now be considered a Pre-Existing Condition. As a result, I've discontinued my health insurance and the price I was paying monthly now goes into a savings account. I see +$30/mo added in there from interest, plus it's money I won't be denied when I need it most.
Doooglas
12-01-2009, 21:42
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Nevermind
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:mad::mad::mad:
MikenSalem
12-02-2009, 00:27
Those who have accumulated assets and hope to be secure in their retirement should be especially concerned about protecting their assets they have worked hard to accumulate.
You will spend all you have, then sell all you have to pay for your own eldercare. You will likely leave no inheritance unless you die suddenly. When you get your bank account below 2k they (Medicare/caid) will pay your old folks home bill and allow you $50 a month for yourself. If you are fortunate and live long enough you will become uninsurable as far as long term care. If you are like many, someone will visit your home and confuse you with legaleese and insurance talk, and get you to swap your insurance for their product. After they do you this favor it leaves you underinsured all in the name of protecting your fixed income.
This sounds morbid but...Die in debt to your ears and give away everything to those you wish to "gift" long before you suspect you might get sick. Enjoy the look on your loved ones faces while you're alive. It's just stuff and junk you think way more of it than it's really worth anyway...
MikenSalem
12-02-2009, 00:38
Going without health insurance is not a wise idea. Even if you think you are a healthy individual - think of what else can result in a debt you may be trying to pay back for the rest of your life (or having to file bankruptcy). Injury as a result of someone else's carelessness, who has no (car) insurance and no money to speak of, may cost you thousands.
Insurance will cost you thousands upon thousands in your life. You cannot go to jail in the USA for not paying your debts, you can only be harassed. Send them a decent payment till it's paid off even catastrophic at $350 a month is a fortune. Bankruptcy.. why? the debt dissolves faster than the bankruptcy clears.
The risk is you will get too sick to afford the treatment you need to live, thats the russian roulette. Of course you're hoping the insurance pays for the treatment too aren't you. Really dying ain't as bad as living in fear you might loose some trinket or not have cable TV. The trick is enough insurance to protect the ones you love and accept that we are all going to die it's a matter of time.
The Weasel
12-02-2009, 10:35
It is fascinating to consider that those who would attack a potential thru-hiker who begs for "contributions" to do her/his hike aren't here saying the same thing about those who say, "Don't buy insurance, they'll treat you anyway and you can just duck the debt one way or another." Not sure I see the difference.
Insurance isn't a lottery that you "win" if you lose by getting sick. It is a way to spread out over a long period the cost of what is statistically likely to happen to you by the end of that period, i.e. your projected life, and averaged out by being part of a statistically significant group, i.e. other policy holders. If you don't need to do that because you have enough to pay your bills, fine; if you earn enough to "spread" the cost by saving the same amount as a premium, that's better (although you're betting against the "house" that you'll "perform as expected" at the average need level). But if you just say, "I'm healthy, I'll take my chances" or "I'll die in debt on purpose" when you CAN afford to either save or insure, well, that's sponging off the rest of us just as much as begging for a few bucks to take a hike.
TW
warraghiyagey
12-02-2009, 10:37
It is fascinating to consider that those who would attack a potential thru-hiker who begs for "contributions" to do her/his hike aren't here saying the same thing about those who say, "Don't buy insurance, they'll treat you anyway and you can just duck the debt one way or another." Not sure I see the difference.
Insurance isn't a lottery that you "win" if you lose by getting sick. It is a way to spread out over a long period the cost of what is statistically likely to happen to you by the end of that period, i.e. your projected life, and averaged out by being part of a statistically significant group, i.e. other policy holders. If you don't need to do that because you have enough to pay your bills, fine; if you earn enough to "spread" the cost by saving the same amount as a premium, that's better (although you're betting against the "house" that you'll "perform as expected" at the average need level). But if you just say, "I'm healthy, I'll take my chances" or "I'll die in debt on purpose" when you CAN afford to either save or insure, well, that's sponging off the rest of us just as much as begging for a few bucks to take a hike.
TW
If you don't see the difference you're not nearly as smart as you seem to think you are. . . pretty much. . .
The Weasel
12-02-2009, 11:18
Hospitals (including ERs) are required to treat all comers, regardless of whether they have insurance or not or can afford to pay the bills. That means that hospital care, for the uninsured who can't pay the bill, is charity. For those who can't afford either insurance or the hospital, that's a good thing: I believe we, as a society, have an obligation to those who need that help. But it remains charity.
For those who can afford insurance, but who say, "Well, if I buy it I can't afford to take a hike, so I'll take the chance," that's sponging off of society when, after a fall, or Lyme Disease, or tendinitis, or whatever else, they go to the hospital. And they are, then, taking charity when they could have either not hiked, and been insured, or found a way to obtain insurance.
So no, I don't see the difference, and I don't think I have to be very smart - maybe I'm not - to call it for what it is.
TW
MikenSalem
12-02-2009, 15:49
those who say, "Don't buy insurance, they'll treat you anyway and you can just duck the debt one way or another."
TW
How does makeing a decent payment equate to ducking or taking charity?
Also it's okay to bet the other policy holders do better than you in the long run so you can have money to pay your bills if you do worse? Oh and as long the Insurance company gets to make a profit... and Hospitals give huge (20%>) discounts for people like me who pay cash within 14 days. Lets not forget the insurance company may reject your claim or stipulate a Dr. 60 miles away in their "plan'.
Who ARE you labeling a sponge again?
MBA If all you're worried about is minor injury skip the MI policy there not winners, just put a few hundred a month away in savings. IF you'd like major coverage get a catastrophic policy and then put a few hundred away for the copay monthly in a HSA not a MSA. Credit cards are not a substitute for saving money don't use them for copays. If you can't afford insurance at all just send them a DECENT payment monthly, it'll not ruin your credit and it's an honorable thing to do.
Charity; is for people who find themselves in a situation where they didn't plan to be or couldn't avoid because sometimes life happens to us. I'm not the judge for who did or did not make good life choices. I do hope and pray you will find yourselves fortunate enough to pay your own way and have a little left over for those who cannot. I pray even harder you'll let it loose and give it to them. You can't take it with you.
Any insurance people on this board?
Yes, I teach insurance at New Mexico State University and have been in the business for 35+ years. So let me know if you have questions and I will try and answer them.
Yes, the health insurance system we have is a mess and in need of changes. The proposed federal legislation will make it even worse and more expensive.
In the meantime we have to deal with what we have.
A couple of notes.
Taking a hike is not considered a hazardous sport.
Temporary health policies are widely available and fairly inexpensive. If you can afford a thru hike you can afford health insurance.
Temporary policies will exclude pre-existing conditions. For most thru hikers this is not a problem.
I agree with other posts that it is irresponsible to do a thru hike without health insurance. There are too many potential problems outside or your control. One of the many problems with our current system is that there are too many people who can afford health insurance but don't. They run up the costs for the rest of us.
If you do require medical attention, offer to pay no more than 150% of medicare rates. Most health care providers overcharge people without insurance, frequently 2-4 times as much as a health insurance company would pay.
Why not agree to help write an article, rather than create another thread? We have enough of them already.
MikenSalem
12-02-2009, 16:58
Nice to hear from a professional, I'll go back to remodeling questions...... Oh they weren't any... Really though thanks. I wasn't aware of temporary other than like when going on missions trips etc. in case you got some exotic bug or entered a country where insurance is iff'y like Colombia SA which is on the USSD don't go list.
Any insurance people on this board?
Yes, I teach insurance at New Mexico State University and have been in the business for 35+ years. So let me know if you have questions and I will try and answer them.
Here is my question regarding temporary short term policies:
If you buy such a policy as a person in good health, then contract a chronic condition while you hold such a policy (like heart disease), what kind of access will you have to other insurance in the years to come?
I assume you are screwed if you live in most states.
Am I right about that?
RIck
Here is my question regarding temporary short term policies:
If you buy such a policy as a person in good health, then contract a chronic condition while you hold such a policy (like heart disease), what kind of access will you have to other insurance in the years to come?
I assume you are screwed if you live in most states.
Am I right about that?
RIck
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/report.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/report.php?p=927814) http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=927814) http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/multiquote_off.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=927814)
Here is my question regarding temporary short term policies:
If you buy such a policy as a person in good health, then contract a chronic condition while you hold such a policy (like heart disease), what kind of access will you have to other insurance in the years to come?
I assume you are screwed if you live in most states.
Am I right about that?
RIck
Sorry I copied your message above this. I should not be doing three things at once. (grading papers, advising students etc.)
The short answer is that an employer sponsored plan cannot exclude or limit coverage for a pre-existing condition for more than a 12 month period. After that 12 month period no new preexisting period can be imposed on workers who maintain continuous coverage. ( you can have a 62 day gap). So if you go to work for an employer after your hike, the worst case would be a 12 month pre-existing condition.
It seems that there is enough interest for an article on this. After this semester is over I will have some time to write something. The Department of Labor has some complicated rules I will have to look up.
Sleepy the Arab
12-02-2009, 20:20
One may also want to bear in mind Cobra law, which allows 60 days to make the actual election, and an additional 45 days to make the first payment. Now that first payment would have to include all back payments, but the coverage is retroactive. In other words, you would have around three months of coverage available - should you need it - without paying a dime. Cheesy? Yes. Making the system work for you instead of against? Absolutely.
Just check with your administrator on payment methods. If they offer an electronic debit, set it up in anticipation of making the payment. If you plan on sending a check, verify what they use to determine if the payment is late or on time (do they go by the postmark or something else?).
Pickleodeon
12-02-2009, 20:28
In response to the original post, I felt it was in my best interests to get health insurance before I thruhiked. It also helps with the gyno/birth control issue of being a 20-something female. So I sucked it up, looked into ehealthinsurance.com and compared some prices. I didn't have insurance through my job at the time anyway, so I started paying for my own health insurance back in... August maybe? of last year, then hiked with insurance, and still have it now since being back, and not having a "real" job yet- substituting doesn't count for insurance. So I started paying $100/month with Aetna, they upped it to $110 after about a year. I haven't really needed to use it for anything emergency-like. Just basic doctor's visit that I've had in the past year, which I think was only one. Fortunately, I didn't have any issues while hiking, but it was there in case I did.
Insurance will cost you thousands upon thousands in your life. You cannot go to jail in the USA for not paying your debts, you can only be harassed. Send them a decent payment till it's paid off even catastrophic at $350 a month is a fortune. Bankruptcy.. why? the debt dissolves faster than the bankruptcy clears.
The risk is you will get too sick to afford the treatment you need to live, thats the russian roulette. Of course you're hoping the insurance pays for the treatment too aren't you. Really dying ain't as bad as living in fear you might loose some trinket or not have cable TV. The trick is enough insurance to protect the ones you love and accept that we are all going to die it's a matter of time.
Health insurance doesn't have to cost a fortune - My husband and I pay $75 per month for both of us.
I have been sick, hospitalized, and have had to go to the ER probably more times than average for a 30-year-old. Not once have I ever been denied by my health insurance company. I do have to pay for office visits and of course anything below my deductible which is a pain. I don't think the system is right but it has yet to do me wrong.
Health insurance has benefited me and has already saved me thousands upon thousands. That's proably why I have the money to afford my hike in 2010. :banana Let's just hope I don't have any illnesses or relapses that prevent me from going!