PDA

View Full Version : Fire



ibigler5
02-08-2009, 02:12
OK so this may be a stupid question, but here it goes.
I understand that we, as trail hikers, we want to keep the trail the way we found it when we got there. So I was wondering about camp fires. If you build a fire in an area that fires are not supposed be built, is that bad or is there a penalty of some sort?

What if after you put out the fire, you dig a hole and bury the ashes, so the area is the same as when you got there, is that ok?

emerald
02-08-2009, 02:43
I understand that we want to keep the trail the way we found it when we got there. If you build a fire in an area that fires are not supposed be built, is that bad or is there a penalty of some sort?

Regulations and guidelines exist for a reason. Might be a steep penalty, especially if your campfire gets away from you. You could be billed for at least the costs of extinguishing it in some locations.

Costs accumulate into the 1000s of dollars rapidly and total costs some may never have imagined when air drops of water or other supressants are required.


What if after you put out the fire, you dig a hole and bury the ashes, so the area is the same as when you got there, is that ok?

It's good to see you are thinking and considering the consequences of your actions, but it wouldn't be the same, would it?

Campfires should be no larger than necessary, attended at all times and be completely extinguished with water until cool to the touch before moving on. In more pristine areas, coals should be burned as near as possible to ash and then scatterred. Fire rings should be broken up, the rocks scattered and the forest floor restored to the condition in which it was found as near as possible.

Campfires should not be extinguished by burying the fire with soil especially dry organic soil. They are best built on mineral soil. Many a campfire thought smothered with soil has remained warm underground only to later spread to the surrounding forest unbeknownst to the person who built it and left the area.

Read ATC's Plan a Hike (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.786985/k.26EF/Plan_a_Hike.htm) and Leave No Trace (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.788825/k.8CB0/Leave_No_Trace.htm) (LNT) pages. LNT is a set of 7 guidelines which will help you to make informed decisions.

ibigler5
02-08-2009, 03:51
thank you very much

emerald
02-08-2009, 04:20
Before building a campfire, it's important to look into what laws or regulations may apply and also to consider whether it's safe given the prevailing conditions.

Of course the best way to avoid impacts associated with campfires is to not build any at all. There may be designated places where they can be contructed with little impact and easily kept under control. Such places would be preferrable.

It's also better to use an existing campsite or fire ring rather than establish a new one. I'd prefer to encounter them just off the trail where they are easily discovered, but not in plain view of the trail.

emerald
02-08-2009, 04:35
I don't have any of the 3 handbooks which will be used by this year's through hikers. There should be information related to campfires in them. If not, watch for signage.

I've posted information here on a number of occasions related to Pennsylvania, where there are multiple land management agency partners and the regulations concerning campfires are somewhat complex and in some cases difficult to determine in the field.

At some point, I'd like to gather that information and would like to see it put where it will be accessible.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 08:47
be responsible and use common sense. Probably the answer to a lot of questions on here. At shelters use the designated fire pits. When elsewhere, 1) make sure it's permitted. 2) Leave no evidence of a fire when you're done and make sure the fire is completely extinguished before you leave. Also when at shelters collect the wood as far from the shelter as you can. The biggest anti-fire argument I hear is that shelter areas are picked clean of wood. Also use only dead wood and downed branches.

Lone Wolf
02-08-2009, 09:04
OK so this may be a stupid question, but here it goes.
I understand that we, as trail hikers, we want to keep the trail the way we found it when we got there. So I was wondering about camp fires. If you build a fire in an area that fires are not supposed be built, is that bad or is there a penalty of some sort?

What if after you put out the fire, you dig a hole and bury the ashes, so the area is the same as when you got there, is that ok?

it's all good in my book
YBMV

KG4FAM
02-08-2009, 09:58
Also when at shelters collect the wood as far from the shelter as you can. The biggest anti-fire argument I hear is that shelter areas are picked clean of wood.Why should everyone else get all the convenient fire wood? It would be easier to collect the wood far from the shelter since it is not picked over, but I wouldn't leave it for the next guy who is not going to burn it up anyway.

emerald
02-08-2009, 11:15
There was a time when it was considered proper etiquette to gather some firewood for others who follow, especially when having used firewood provided by others. A small quantity of dry wood can be a welcome sight when dry wood is difficult to obtain.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 11:15
Why should everyone else get all the convenient fire wood? It would be easier to collect the wood far from the shelter since it is not picked over, but I wouldn't leave it for the next guy who is not going to burn it up anyway.
How to respond? Even if wood was abundant near the shelter, that is often the case early in the season, Go the extra mile,(or 200 feet) Collect enough for you and maybe some for the next group. If enough people do this perhaps the areas around shelters wont be as bare. Yes there will always be those that pick the closest wood, and litter, and graffiti the shelters, and don't bury their crap/T.P. etc... Why should the actions of these people justify others doing the same?

MOWGLI
02-08-2009, 11:21
Regarding fires, here are a some good guidelines;

1. Don't build any new fire rings. There are already too many.
2. Use only dead & downed wood.
3. In windy & dry conditions.. think twice.
4. Don't build a bonfire, or lay a 15' long piece of wood across your fire.
5. Follow the regs
6. Enjoy yourself

KG4FAM
02-08-2009, 11:32
Yes there will always be those that pick the closest wood, and litter, and graffiti the shelters, and don't bury their crap/T.P. etc... Why should the actions of these people justify others doing the same?
So picking the close firewood falls in the same category as littering, graffiti and not burying your poop these days? So should we not collect water from the closest spring either? How about lets leave all the flat tent sites for the next person who comes in and sleep on a root covered piece of ground. Lets all stay in our tents on sunny days and only walk on rainy ones to protect the tranquility of the perfect days for others. Being a slob is bad, but trying to say that you should not take advantage of what is around you is not the same.

SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 11:36
Stealth camp. Most of the time fires are too much work anyway.

emerald
02-08-2009, 11:38
I'm not disappointed when firewood is hard to come by near shelters. Less fuel is available in the event someone is careless and a fire spreads into the woods. I look at it as fuel reduction which reduces what's available to fuel a fire that gets away.

emerald
02-08-2009, 11:42
So picking the close firewood falls in the same category as littering, graffiti and not burying your poop these days?

No, the incentive and reward for gathering the farwood is having some to burn and not needing to look as long. Firewood in the vicinity of shelters is a renewable resource, but one which increasingly cannot meet the demand in many locations.

SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 11:45
So let me get this straight...

Are you saying I should not get the firewood close to the shelter because that means it will still be there for someone else?

superman
02-08-2009, 11:49
I stealth camp when ever I can. I don't make a fire except with my alcohol stove to screw up yet another meal. :)

emerald
02-08-2009, 11:54
I'd rather see less fires, but if someone really desires a fire and they can do so legally and safely, they should kindle one and enjoy it. I enjoy a campfire myself on occasion although I probably wouldn't kindle one except at a site specifically designated for that purpose.

Someone who wants to build a fire should be prepared to take full responsibility for it meaning they should not leave an unsightly mess to greet others who follow them. I could care less where they obtain their firewood so long as they are using dead and downed wood and building fires no larger than they really require.

My biggest concerns involve the costs, risks assumed by fire fighters and resource damage which results from wildfires. Here in Pennsylvania, most of our firefighters are volunteers who must to take time off from their jobs to fight fires resulting in lost productivity to their employers and in some cases maybe even income to support their families. It's increasingly difficult to staff volunteer fire companies.

JF2CBR
02-08-2009, 12:03
I'm not sure I'd feel like I was camping without a fire. It keeps me warm and adds a feeling of safety, almost feels like a companion.

Fires are one of the most primal things on the earth, to me that's special.

With a realistic point of view, I feel having a fire and taking proper care of it afterwards will do NO significant damage to anything or anyone.

It seems today like people get erked about anything you want to do in the woods other than tip toe through them. Don't look at that tree for too long or it will get depressed and cause polar ice caps to melt, killing thousands of baby whales....you're not a baby whale killer are you?!

SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 12:05
I'm not sure I'd feel like I was camping without a fire. It keeps me warm and adds a feeling of safety, almost feels like a companion.

Fires are one of the most primal things on the earth, to me that's special.

With a realistic point of view, I feel having a fire and taking proper care of it afterwards will do NO significant damage to anything or anyone.

It seems today like people get erked about anything you want to do in the woods other than tip toe through them. Don't look at that tree for too long or it will get depressed and cause polar ice caps to melt, killing thousands of baby whales....you're not a baby whale killer are you?!
Don't let them sweat you. It's just that a lot of us get to the point that after a 17 mile day all we want to do is eat, read a book, and go to sleep to some tunes. Fires are work. When I go camping with the family we have very nice fires - but while hiking for distance I only make fires when I need them and it makes sense.

emerald
02-08-2009, 12:24
It seems today like people get irked about anything you want to do in the woods other than tip toe through them.

I hope you didn't see anything like what you're suggesting in my posts. What I'm attempting to communicate is respect the regulations which were put in place to protect the A.T. and those who live near it. Most through hikers pass through but once. People who live near the A.T. have a vested interest in what goes on there and in their communities.

Some places or sometimes when certain conditions exist campfires are not appropriate. Where they are permitted, exercise caution and be considerate of others who will follow in your footsteps and who live nearby. It's not asking much in exchange for the opportunity to use public lands which after all belong to everyone including generations who one day will want to enjoy the A.T. as we have.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 14:49
So picking the close firewood falls in the same category as littering, graffiti and not burying your poop these days? So should we not collect water from the closest spring either? How about lets leave all the flat tent sites for the next person who comes in and sleep on a root covered piece of ground. Lets all stay in our tents on sunny days and only walk on rainy ones to protect the tranquility of the perfect days for others. Being a slob is bad, but trying to say that you should not take advantage of what is around you is not the same.
Hike your own hike. I do and when I do I try to think of the people coming after me. You can do what you like it just seems you might have a bit of a selfish attitude.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 15:18
not collect water from the closest spring? that makes no sense. Tent sites? 1st come first serve but, if you wish to be considerate, don't take up two tent spaces with 1 tent. Only hike on rainy days to protect the tranquility? You can put that one back in your azz from whence it came. People spread out while hiking and there is plenty for all rain or shine. Lastly, "take advantage". Interesting choice of words.

KG4FAM
02-08-2009, 15:40
not collect water from the closest spring? that makes no sense. Tent sites? 1st come first serve but, if you wish to be considerate, don't take up two tent spaces with 1 tent. Only hike on rainy days to protect the tranquility? You can put that one back in your azz from whence it came. People spread out while hiking and there is plenty for all rain or shine. Lastly, "take advantage". Interesting choice of words.
Not collecting water from the closest spring is no different from not collecting wood from the closest source. Notice the only difference in words: water/wood, spring/source. If you can't the parallel you are an idiot.

How about while you are worrying about taking care of the next person's every need you just wait until they shows up and pamper their azz in person.

SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 15:47
Geez guys stop it. We are pole vaulting over mouse turds again.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 16:04
Not collecting water from the closest spring is no different from not collecting wood from the closest source. Notice the only difference in words: water/wood, spring/source. If you can't the parallel you are an idiot.

How about while you are worrying about taking care of the next person's every need you just wait until they shows up and pamper their azz in person.
I did well on my SATs. I see the "parallel". Can you see the point? A spring will keep flowing regardless of how many liters of water you take and it will be there for the next person where as firewood becomes more and more scarce as the season progresses. The accumulative effect over the years being shelter areas picked clean for 200 feet in all directions. Yes this trend will continue as there will always be people who will take the most convenient firewood. You are obviously one of them.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 16:12
Really it's not that big of a deal compared to a lot of other things as you so sarcastically implied but your "screw the hikers after me." attitude just struck me wrong.

JF2CBR
02-08-2009, 16:15
That's actually just one more reason I like to camp away from shelters; the availability of fire wood.

MOWGLI
02-08-2009, 16:24
I did well on my SATs. I see the "parallel". Can you see the point? A spring will keep flowing regardless of how many liters of water you take and it will be there for the next person where as firewood becomes more and more scarce as the season progresses. The accumulative effect over the years being shelter areas picked clean for 200 feet in all directions. Yes this trend will continue as there will always be people who will take the most convenient firewood. You are obviously one of them.


It's not that there is no firewood for 200' in every direction. It's that there's no vegetation for 200' in every direction because hikers have trampled it looking for firewood or a place to take a leak, or setup their tent.

Tinker
02-08-2009, 16:32
OK so this may be a stupid question, but here it goes.
I understand that we, as trail hikers, we want to keep the trail the way we found it when we got there. So I was wondering about camp fires. If you build a fire in an area that fires are not supposed be built, is that bad or is there a penalty of some sort?

What if after you put out the fire, you dig a hole and bury the ashes, so the area is the same as when you got there, is that ok?

The area is not the same while you are using the fire. Other folks can smell smoke, no? Someone who cares about (and has to power to enforce) the rules and regulations may just decide to close that area to camping for hikers after you. Don't ruin it for others, I've heard enough stories about "@#$%&*! hikers".
On the other hand, if you need a fire to survive, say you just fell into a stream on an extremely cold day, go ahead and build one wherever you happen to be. I doubt anyone will judge you harshly for it.

KG4FAM
02-08-2009, 16:39
Really it's not that big of a deal compared to a lot of other things as you so sarcastically implied but your "screw the hikers after me." attitude just struck me wrong.Leaving your trash around is screwing the other hikers, worrying about firewood is not. I ain't talking about screwing anybody. You are mistaking me not caring about a taking care of peoples happiness as screwing them. I don't mind helping people, but worrying about firewood don't put a roof over a head, food on a table, or shirt on a back.

SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 16:41
Pole vaulting over mouse turds. The WB way.

ibigler5
02-08-2009, 17:39
I just wanna know if it's ok for me to build a fire.... its really as simple as that

MOWGLI
02-08-2009, 17:40
I just wanna know if it's ok for me to build a fire.... its really as simple as that

The Regs are in the trail guides, and signage is usually pretty visible along the trail.

Enjoy.

Rockhound
02-08-2009, 18:01
It's not that there is no firewood for 200' in every direction. It's that there's no vegetation for 200' in every direction because hikers have trampled it looking for firewood or a place to take a leak, or setup their tent.
good point. Think anything can be done to change this or is it just a lost cause?

Tinker
02-08-2009, 18:02
I just wanna know if it's ok for me to build a fire.... its really as simple as that

Sorry, but it's much more complicated than that. In a civilized society, we have the right to question the law (or rules, as it may be considered by those intending to "bend" them), but we don't have the right, strictly speaking, to break them. Wherever it says "No fires" it means "No fires". We have to be content with having them wherever they're allowed, and be thankful that, unlike a few states along the trail, fires of any size are illegal everywhere, usually due to forest fires started by careless campers.

MOWGLI
02-08-2009, 18:05
good point. Think anything can be done to change this or is it just a lost cause?

Other than encouraging folks to hike other trails and promote LNT, I don't think so. The AT has a lot of use, so the best they can do is concentrate the impacts around shelters.

When I get close to a shelter, if I know I want a fire, I try and pick stuff up along the trail BEFORE I reach the shelter.

emerald
02-08-2009, 18:12
I just wanna know if it's ok for me to build a fire.... its really as simple as that


The Regs are in the trail guides, and signage is usually pretty visible along the trail.

Make your best effort to inform yourself about what's expected of you, try to be considerate of others and enjoy what time you have on the A.T.

Sometime soon I'll pull together the Pennsylvania information in a single post and link it for you once I get the time to do it right. I want to create a post which can be recycled as needed until for one reason or another I need to create a new one.

As soon as I can get my hands on a new Companion, I'd like to see what could be done to get the Pennsylvania information listed if it isn't already.

Gaiter
02-08-2009, 18:20
I just wanna know if it's ok for me to build a fire.... its really as simple as that

yes, but be smart, be aware of the area regulations, and use existing fire-pits, don't worry there are lots of them....

often thru and long distance hikers rarely build nightly fires... but the short section hikers that are just out for the week or weekend tend to build them

in an emergency situation, it is just that an emergency situation, and if you need to build a fire then build a fire, just be smart about it, so you don't set the whole forest and yourself on fire...

SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 18:22
I just wanna know if it's ok for me to build a fire.... its really as simple as that
For the most part the answer is yes. And where it isn't - they tend to go out of their way to let you know it isn't.