View Full Version : Any thermarest testers here?
randyg45
02-08-2009, 03:09
Seems they have a new product, the NeoAir. http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=134&cID=1
I have sleep/back issues:(, so unless there's some awfully bad buzz I want to be the first kid on the block with ione of these puppies:)
Seems they have a new product, the NeoAir. http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=134&cID=1
I have sleep/back issues:(, so unless there's some awfully bad buzz I want to be the first kid on the block with ione of these puppies:)
$150 for an air mattress? Go for it.
Jayboflavin04
02-08-2009, 03:29
Look at the MSR hyperflow......It gets awesome reviews on here. MSR and thermarest are both owned by cascade design
randyg45
02-08-2009, 04:33
Look at the MSR hyperflow......It gets awesome reviews on here. MSR and thermarest are both owned by cascade design
Which one of us is headed north on the southbound trail? I can't find an msr sleeping pad.
randyg45
02-08-2009, 04:38
$150 for an air mattress? Go for it.
Well, yeah, true enough. But if I put a thru together comparing lost income to expenses is sorta like comparing Oprah on the treadmill to Nimblewill on the ECT/AMT :banana
"Look at the MSR hyperflow......It gets awesome reviews on here. MSR and thermarest are both owned by cascade design"
Apart from belonging to the same group of companies , what do they have in common ?
So I suppose if you ever have a bad experience with a Rexona. Dove or Lux product you will also stop buying Bertolli Olive Oil or Lipton branded food ?
Come to think of it, I am not sure I really like Omo, better stop buying Knorr products, you never know that guy that made the soap powder could be working in the kitchen as well.
BTW, the brands I mentioned are all part of Unilever.
( I stopped using Nikon when I found out it was connected with Mitsubishi. Don't like those cars much)
Franco
I stopped using Nikon when I found out it was connected with Mitsubishi. Don't like those cars much[/B])
Franco
Isn't this a contradiction, in your own terms?
I like Nikon optics, but, don't necessarily have to buy a Mitsubishi auto.:-?
saimyoji
02-08-2009, 08:47
Isn't this a contradiction, in your own terms?
I like Nikon optics, but, don't necessarily have to buy a Mitsubishi auto.:-?
sarcasm, maybe? Not quite sure though. :rolleyes:
WritinginCT
02-08-2009, 11:19
That pad looks interesting. Packs down to the size of a 1ltr bottle supposedly. That's cool.
And hey, if a $150 pad keeps you out there longer -go for it.
Jayboflavin04
02-08-2009, 11:31
Generallly not a good idea to buy something the first year it comes out. Example being the hyperflow, i love thermarests, and own a msr sweetwater. Sometimes large companys are so anxious to get the new product out there. They really dont get the bugs worked out!
GeneralLee10
02-08-2009, 11:46
Generallly not a good idea to buy something the first year it comes out. Example being the hyperflow, i love thermarests, and own a msr sweetwater. Sometimes large companys are so anxious to get the new product out there. They really dont get the bugs worked out!
Once I met a wise old man called my Grandfather he would say the same it all applies to new products. All though it does sound good the small one is what I would go for, but I will not do to the price and the 1st year out on the market. Get one tell use and the company how nice it is and how crappy it maybe it would help them out.
randyg45
02-08-2009, 12:44
That's pretty good advice. I bought a Vega the first year they were out.
I guess some of us don't even learn the hard way.
Jayboflavin04
02-08-2009, 13:00
I think I am going with a womens prolite 3. 10 dollars cheaper, two oz heavier than the neo air, and about 70 dollars cheaper and about 10 dollars cheaper than the mens. who cares if it is purple or pink......
rusty075
02-08-2009, 13:13
You should check the archives of the Backpacking Light Yahoo Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackingLight/). Jerry Goller (of http://www.backpackgeartest.org/ ) has been testing prototypes of it for several years now.
So, Ok did anyone get the Neo air yet. I would like to hear any reviews! What I got so far is the cost and compactabilty. Anything else, about the gear, please?
Jayboflavin04
02-08-2009, 13:32
wont be able to purchase retail until april.......this is from the therma-rest website
randyg45
02-08-2009, 13:37
I think I am going with a womens prolite 3. 10 dollars cheaper, two oz heavier than the neo air, and about 70 dollars cheaper and about 10 dollars cheaper than the mens. who cares if it is purple or pink......
A big reason for my interest is that I need the large, primarily for the width but also because of the thickness.
randyg45
02-08-2009, 13:49
You should check the archives of the Backpacking Light Yahoo Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackingLight/). Jerry Goller (of http://www.backpackgeartest.org/ ) has been testing prototypes of it for several years now.
Rusty, that was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thank you.
Yes that was me indulging with what I thought was an obvious bit of sarcasm, the point being that the Neo -Hyperflow connection is not much closer than a Nikon is to a Mitsubishi car.
Franco
Powder River
02-19-2009, 21:36
http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/News-Landing/Search-Results/Gear-news/Therm-a-Rest-launches-ultra-light-airbed/
http://www.feedthehabit.com/outdoors/new-air-core-sleeping-pads-from-therm-a-rest-and-exped/
Nice pictures there of the pad and the packing size...
4eyedbuzzard
02-19-2009, 21:59
$150 for a "NeoAir" huh? :-?
Guess I'll be sleeping on my BA "retroair" for a while yet.
Sucker is light though, I'll give them that.
skinewmexico
02-19-2009, 22:42
It amazes me that BA, Exped, and POE have had a product essentially like this for years, but suddenly when Thermarest comes out with it at an outrageous price, everyone wants one. I guess it's the "Great Big Bertha" theory of marketing.
Really ? a full size 2" thick , * 2.5 mat for around 13 oz ?
Which one ?
Franco
that was meant to be * 2.5
Oh dear, it does not like the letter *
I am a sucker who likes cool new products... also looking for a lightweight sleeping pad. I'll come out and say that I'll probably buy it when it hits the shelves.
Tipi Walter
02-20-2009, 07:22
The Neoair would never work for me since its Rvalue is so low. And yet Thermarest says "Unrivaled Warmth! Three times warmer than uninsulated air mattresses." Three times warmer? At a 2.5 Rvalue?? The Prolite 4 is 3.8 and it barely works by itself on snow and ice. I question their wisdom.
The simple answer is that if you find it too expensive or ...whatever, don't buy it, but the Thermarest blurb is factual.
What they state is that it is 3x warmer than a non insulated mat, in other words what is available from other manufacturers in a comparable stored size and similar weight, not 3x warmer than your mat ....
Keep in mind that the Neo is 14 oz (not 13 as I quoted from the top of my head..) , the Prolite 4 is 24 oz
My question was : what mat do you know of that is 2" thick, 14 oz and rated 2.5 ? and should have added stores to that kind of size (9"x4") ?
You can get a similar rating from a close cell foam mat but it doesn't fold to a Nalgene 1 L size, neither is 2" thick...
Franco
randyg45
02-20-2009, 11:28
My question was : what mat do you know of that is 2" thick, 14 oz and rated 2.5 ? and should have added stores to that kind of size (9"x4") ?
You can get a similar rating from a close cell foam mat but it doesn't fold to a Nalgene 1 L size, neither is 2" thick...
Franco
I don't know of anything like it. I've had two back surgeries, and may someday need to see another sawbones for my neck. I need "thick and wide". For 19 ounces for 2.5" x 25" x 77", ANY Rfactor is a bonus imo. I can always put a blue pad under it.
I can put up with a lot during the day... wet feet, bad food, a blister or two, sore shoulders, smelly..... whatever (did I mention smelly:)), but please let me SLEEP in comfort!
Gray Blazer
02-20-2009, 11:30
That's pretty good advice. I bought a Vega the first year they were out.
I guess some of us don't even learn the hard way.
Aluminum block. Cracked before 60,000 miles.
Tipi Walter
02-20-2009, 11:45
The simple answer is that if you find it too expensive or ...whatever, don't buy it, but the Thermarest blurb is factual.
What they state is that it is 3x warmer than a non insulated mat, in other words what is available from other manufacturers in a comparable stored size and similar weight, not 3x warmer than your mat ....
Keep in mind that the Neo is 14 oz (not 13 as I quoted from the top of my head..) , the Prolite 4 is 24 oz
My question was : what mat do you know of that is 2" thick, 14 oz and rated 2.5 ? and should have added stores to that kind of size (9"x4") ?
You can get a similar rating from a close cell foam mat but it doesn't fold to a Nalgene 1 L size, neither is 2" thick...
Franco
Who uses a non-insulated mat? Those old air mattresses of the 1950s?? They're used now in swimming pools. A two inch pad might be comfy but similar 2 inch pads are at least closer to 4.5 Rvalue. I use an Expedition 1.75 inch at 4.4 Rvalue at around 3 pounds. Works great on snow. On my next trip I'm taking out a real 2 inch pad at 6.1 Rvalue and around 3.11 pounds. ULers read it and weep.
randyg45
02-20-2009, 12:31
Who uses a non-insulated mat? Those old air mattresses of the 1950s?? They're used now in swimming pools. A two inch pad might be comfy but similar 2 inch pads are at least closer to 4.5 Rvalue. I use an Expedition 1.75 inch at 4.4 Rvalue at around 3 pounds. Works great on snow. On my next trip I'm taking out a real 2 inch pad at 6.1 Rvalue and around 3.11 pounds. ULers read it and weep.
If I camped on snow I would likely want one.
What do you use for comfort in July?
Powder River
02-20-2009, 15:32
Who uses a non-insulated mat? Those old air mattresses of the 1950s?? They're used now in swimming pools. A two inch pad might be comfy but similar 2 inch pads are at least closer to 4.5 Rvalue. I use an Expedition 1.75 inch at 4.4 Rvalue at around 3 pounds. Works great on snow. On my next trip I'm taking out a real 2 inch pad at 6.1 Rvalue and around 3.11 pounds. ULers read it and weep.
So.... 3.11 pounds > 14 ounces?
I take my 4 lb parka backpacking too. It's WAY warmer than that silly 12 ounce rain jacket...
Skinewmexico, I'm w/ Franco on this one. I would really like to know what you know. Show me a BA, Exped, or POE inflatable pad w/ the same or similar specs as the Neo Thermarest specs at 9 ozs for a Shortie length.
Tipi Walter and friends
Thermarest are not pitching the Neo at would-be polar explorers nor Everest climbers, it is a 3 season mat for folk that like ( or need) some comfort but don't particularly enjoy walking with a 50 lbs pack . Call them weird , sissies or whatever but I am one of them.
As for "air mattresses of the 50's" well, no you are the one out of date here. In the last decade or so there is been a concentrated effort in designing lighter weight mats, fo example recently Big Agnes have released the Air Core series (5 sizes) 22oz for the 72', and the Clear View (7 sizes) 15 oz for the 72" version. I am pretty sure that they would not put 12 uninsulated mats out if there was no market for them.
But yes you are correct, your mats are warmer, just totally irrelevant to this thread.
Franco
The other point of reference, comparing like for like, is Pacific Outdoor.
It offers 6 mats, 3 different types (Ether Compact6/9 and Tropics) all uninsulated and all heavier than the Neo.
Exped also have the Air Mat series, 5 sizes, 28oz for the 72" size.
And here in 2009 not 1952.
Franco
riceNbeans
02-21-2009, 00:11
Generallly not a good idea to buy something the first year it comes out. Example being the hyperflow, i love thermarests, and own a msr sweetwater. Sometimes large companys are so anxious to get the new product out there. They really dont get the bugs worked out!
I have heard from one of the testers of the NeoAior and he absolutely loves it. Apparently, they have gone through a pretty rigorous testing period of 3-4 years.
Whiskyjo
02-21-2009, 00:48
I'd put my Exped Downmat 9 against any Thermarest for cold winter comfort. Weight is not an issue for me in the winter, safety is.
Baltimore Andy
02-21-2009, 01:15
im getting one from REI when it comes out, and if it sucks ill return it.
randyg45
02-21-2009, 01:17
Weight is not an issue for me in the winter, safety is.
I know someone will, ahem, correct me if I'm wrong :o, but I think we're all pretty much agreed on that.
I further think most of us are agreed we're not talking about winter camping.
To help a little here, a 2.5resistance rating is what you can expect from a self inflating 1" mat, IE Pro LIte 3(now Pro Lite 2.2 rated) .
Note that for some weird reason, as I already quoted, Exped as well as the Downmat 9 ( thermal resistance 8, 40 oz ,$180) , they also make the Air Mat 7.5, (28 oz, rated 0.7, $90).
I know that maybe there is a hidden clue in those figures of why they bother , but I can't work it out.
Franco
Tipi Walter
03-02-2009, 08:04
If I camped on snow I would likely want one.
What do you use for comfort in July?
In the summer I use a Prolite 4 large--now discontinued(of course)and replaced with the Prolite Plus. BTW, my earlier blurb about the Prolite 4's Rvalue being at 3.8 is wrong, it's 3.2.
Tipi Walter and friends
Thermarest are not pitching the Neo at would-be polar explorers nor Everest climbers, it is a 3 season mat for folk that like ( or need) some comfort but don't particularly enjoy walking with a 50 lbs pack . Call them weird , sissies or whatever but I am one of them.
As for "air mattresses of the 50's" well, no you are the one out of date here. In the last decade or so there is been a concentrated effort in designing lighter weight mats, fo example recently Big Agnes have released the Air Core series (5 sizes) 22oz for the 72', and the Clear View (7 sizes) 15 oz for the 72" version. I am pretty sure that they would not put 12 uninsulated mats out if there was no market for them.
But yes you are correct, your mats are warmer, just totally irrelevant to this thread.
Franco
When you say 12 uninsulated mats, are you talking about mats with an Rvalue of 0? I gotta see that.
I'd put my Exped Downmat 9 against any Thermarest for cold winter comfort. Weight is not an issue for me in the winter, safety is.
I used an Exped Downmat 9 last winter for a few trips and gotta say, Never Again! The two main problems I had with it were pump inflation time(about 10 minutes versus 20 seconds for my thermy), and the worst was touching the cold ground WHEN SITTING UP. I spend most of my time during winter camping sitting on my pad, and there shouldn't be any ground felt between your butt and the ground. No matter how full I bellowed the Exped, when sitting up I always hit the ground. Uncomfy, cold and disappointing. Laying down's a different story of course, but that's just a part of a pad's usefulness.
I know someone will, ahem, correct me if I'm wrong :o, but I think we're all pretty much agreed on that.
I further think most of us are agreed we're not talking about winter camping.
Why not? You guys don't go out in the winter? We're right in the middle of winter now. Let's talk about Rvalues and winter pads.
A SAD THERMAREST PLIGHT
The company must have a sad case of identity crisis as they can't seem to keep a model name longer than about 2 years. Here's some proof and a list of some inflatable pad names off the top of my head. Read it and stay confused:
Prolite 3/4: 2 lbs 1 oz large 3.2R Discontinued
Prolite Plus: replaced the prolite 4
Backpacker: a cheaper model sold by Campmor: 1 inch thick, around 2 lbs
Trail: 1 inch, 1 lb 8 oz, R3.4
Trail Comfort: R6.2 large 3 lbs 3 oz 2 inch thick,
Trail Lite: 2 lbs 11 oz, 1.5 inch thick, 3.8R
Trail Pro: 2 obs 11 oz 2 inch thick, 3.8R
Toughskin: 5.1R
BaseCamp: 6.2R and 3 lbs 10 oz
CampRest: Remeber this one? 4 lbs 2 oz large
Camp Lite: 2 inch thick, 2 lbs 12 oz
Expedition: 1.75 inch thick, 2 lbs 15 oz 4.4R
Ultralite: 1 inch thick, pretty light, 2.6R
Luxury Camp: The Performance Series
Dreamtime:
Standard: 2 lbs 7 oz, 1.75 thick, the old standby.
Explorer: cheaper model sold by Campmor.
LE Megarest
Luxury LE: 20x70x2, 2 lbs 5 oz
Guide Lite: 2 lbs, 1.5 thick, 3.8R
Fusiion: 2lbs 6 oz, 1.25 thick, 3.5R with foam insert.
Classic: 2 lbs 14 oz, 1.5 thick Rvalue?
skinewmexico
03-02-2009, 12:16
Skinewmexico, I'm w/ Franco on this one. I would really like to know what you know. Show me a BA, Exped, or POE inflatable pad w/ the same or similar specs as the Neo Thermarest specs at 9 ozs for a Shortie length.
My Thermarest point exactly. Someone jumps up here to defend the honor of a product they've never used, or held in their hands, and isn't for sale yet. What will be really interesting is the actual weight of a production NeoAir, when it actually hits the sales shelf. I'm not saying that the NeoAir won't be a good product, but the POE Ether Thermo short weights 16 oz. So you're theoretically paying an extra $80-100 to save 7 oz. Thermarest is just one of those products that when mentioned on internet forums makes the term "koolaid drinker" jump unbidden into my mind.
Tipi Walter
The original post was about the Thermarest Neo Air, not about the ideal mat for Tipi Walter.
"When you say 12 uninsulated mats, are you talking about mats with an Rvalue of 0? I gotta see that."
I have listed the mats, all you have to do is go and look for yourself at the respective web sites
But I make it easier for you
http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/ProductFinder/Pad/filters/34 (http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/ProductFinder/Pad/filters/34)
http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/b43HomePageE?openframeset (http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/b43HomePageE?openframeset)
http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2008/index.cfm?action=insulmat_season&familyID=1&season=1 (http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2008/index.cfm?action=insulmat_season&familyID=1&season=1)
You may think that everybody does exactly what you do, but that is not the case.
1) a lot of people only hike a few times a year and only in the warmest months ( or coolest for desert dwellers...)
2) most keen, all year round , walkers have more than one mat
3) a lot of lightweight walkers would prefer to die with soiled underwear than be discovered in the middle of summer with a mat heavier than 1 pound.
Keep in mind that the 12 versions I listed are from the major manufacturers, there are many more "generic" versions on the market .
Franco
MDhiker1967
03-02-2009, 19:25
Aluminum block. Cracked before 60,000 miles.
Thus the steel cylinder sleeves :)
McKeever
03-02-2009, 19:53
Think of pouring boiling hot water (212 degrees) into a Styrofoam coffee cup and immediately picking it up and holding it until it's completely cold. Would your hand ever feel the heat at all? Of course not.
A thermo rest is for pure comfort and if you want to hike with one go for it but a cheapo closed cell mat is much lighter and cheaper and will never cause you to loose you body heat to the ground. I have several closed cell mats and a thermo rest and would will only carry the thermo rest on short sections.
Good point. I have sent an E Mail to Barry Paxman the product manager at Cascade Design ,( I go right to the top) , to inform him about this. He was not aware of the problem but says he is very, very sorry and will make sure that the Thermarest division will cease manufacturing and selling of all but their closed foam pads as soon as possible. Thank you for the tip.
Franco
McKeever
03-02-2009, 20:18
Don't worry, the economy will take care of them first. The sad part is that it will be from the bottom up.
Tipi Walter
03-02-2009, 22:23
Tipi Walter
The original post was about the Thermarest Neo Air, not about the ideal mat for Tipi Walter.
"When you say 12 uninsulated mats, are you talking about mats with an Rvalue of 0? I gotta see that."
I have listed the mats, all you have to do is go and look for yourself at the respective web sites
But I make it easier for you
http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/ProductFinder/Pad/filters/34 (http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/ProductFinder/Pad/filters/34)
http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/b43HomePageE?openframeset (http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/b43HomePageE?openframeset)
http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2008/index.cfm?action=insulmat_season&familyID=1&season=1 (http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2008/index.cfm?action=insulmat_season&familyID=1&season=1)
You may think that everybody does exactly what you do, but that is not the case.
1) a lot of people only hike a few times a year and only in the warmest months ( or coolest for desert dwellers...)
2) most keen, all year round , walkers have more than one mat
3) a lot of lightweight walkers would prefer to die with soiled underwear than be discovered in the middle of summer with a mat heavier than 1 pound.
Keep in mind that the 12 versions I listed are from the major manufacturers, there are many more "generic" versions on the market .
Franco
Maybe you missed my point. Here's the original Thermarest NeoAir quote on their website: "Three times warmer than any other UNINSULATED air mattress available." Can you show me anyone who makes an uninsulated air mattress? I checked out all your examples and here's the scoop:
Big Agnes: Air Core and Clearview, all have a 1 Rvalue.
Exped: Airmat 7.5s all have .7 Rvalue.
Pacific Outdoor don't even list their Rvalues.
So, what the heck is an "uninsulated air mattress" and what do they look like? Your examples all have some bit of insulation. Does the quote mean 3 times warmer than nothing?
Think of pouring boiling hot water (212 degrees) into a Styrofoam coffee cup and immediately picking it up and holding it until it's completely cold. Would your hand ever feel the heat at all? Of course not.
A thermo rest is for pure comfort and if you want to hike with one go for it but a cheapo closed cell mat is much lighter and cheaper and will never cause you to loose you body heat to the ground. I have several closed cell mats and a thermo rest and would will only carry the thermo rest on short sections.
I don't know anyone who does serious winter backpacking using just a cheapo closed cell mat. Usually it's several foam pads or a combo of, say, a Prolite with a closed cell. When you say a closed cell mat won't ever cause you to loose body heat to the ground, I question this. I never could get warm with a Ridgerest on the snow at 10 degrees.
McKeever
03-02-2009, 23:11
Thge thread topic was "Any Thermorest Testers?". If you really want to shift the thread into winter camping I can tell of my successful experiences using only closed cell.
Tipi Walter
Maybe you don't read what you write, but if my calculator is correct 0.7 x 3 is 2.1, the Neo Air is rated 2.5 so if you really want to be that pedantic it could be called 3,71 times warmer than the Exped, but that does not work your way does it ?
And yes compared to the Big Agnes it is only 2.5x , so sue them...
Franco
Tipi Walter
And BTW if it is still not that clear to you, the "uninsulated" refers to mats that just have air inside, like the 12 that I posted, insulated inflatable are the ones with some synthetic foam or down inside. The R value Exped/Big Agnes quote and the one you may get fro the PO versions is from the shell of the mat because...they are empty inside (unlike the very complex structure of the Neo Air)
Thermarest is comparing the Neo with mats of similar size and weight.
Franco
No doubt, skinewmexico, the Neo is going to require shelling out some bucks. You are paying for the interest in a new highly anticipated product. And, yes one of the benefits is saving 7 oz when compared to the POE Thermo short, but you also get less bulk which could be a factor for some folks. I hear you w/ regard to folks defending products they have yet to experience in the real world, but even before the acclaimed Backpacker gear reviews came out several testers praised these pads. Again, I don't see an inflatable pad w/ those specs in the shortie version for 3 season use.
My Thermarest point exactly. Someone jumps up here to defend the honor of a product they've never used, or held in their hands, and isn't for sale yet. What will be really interesting is the actual weight of a production NeoAir, when it actually hits the sales shelf. I'm not saying that the NeoAir won't be a good product, but the POE Ether Thermo short weights 16 oz. So you're theoretically paying an extra $80-100 to save 7 oz. Thermarest is just one of those products that when mentioned on internet forums makes the term "koolaid drinker" jump unbidden into my mind.
skinewmexico
03-12-2009, 15:44
I hear you w/ regard to folks defending products they have yet to experience in the real world, but even before the acclaimed Backpacker gear reviews came out several testers praised these pads.
So there are people that read Backpacker gear reviews and believe them? I always wonder how much they paid in advertising for a good review of a (normally) heavy piece of gear.
"Someone jumps up here to defend the honor of a product they've never used, or held in their hands, and isn't for sale yet."
The same applies to the ones that criticise a product they've never used, or held in their hands, and isn't for sale yet.
My comments so far have been based from my experience with 3 Thermarest mats, their specs compared with my measurements and usage (pretty accurate) , and the fact that the mat has had more than three years of tests so far, so not exactly a lets get to the market quick type product.
What bothers me is the negativity shown by some towards innovation.
The commonest fallacy here, apart from building straw man arguments, is the "I can't afford it, therefore is too expensive, therefore no good" type of reasoning.
Franco