View Full Version : Cougars In The Appalachians
B Thrash
05-10-2004, 20:55
Has Cougars been introduced to the Appalachian Mountains yet?. This past weekend a north bound thru-hiker posted in register that he was sure he saw a cougar near Brown Fork Shelter last week, also some section hikers saw some large cat tracks nearby.
Brushy Sage
05-10-2004, 21:44
I haven't seen any reports of their being introduced; however, there have been some (alleged) sighting reports in recent years. The ranger station in a western Maryland state campground, about 30 miles west of the AT, has a poster with a picture of a cougar, and a note "Please tell us if you see one of these."
Tha Wookie
05-10-2004, 21:50
They won't be reintroduced. Their range is too broad to be accomodated by the very tiny amount of protected land in the East. Sad but true.
They tried to reintroduce the Red Wolf in the Smokeys years back and it failed for that reason.
But sooner or later, when our irresponsibly gluttunous society comes to a crashing halt, they'll be back (unless we exterminate them first).
Likely if cougars exist anywhere along the eastern corridor they are escaped pets kept by people who are obviously too irresposible to do so. In Michigan, several sightings over the years have occured, most speculated to be such escapes (or released without the authorization of the DNR). Now, however, there is thought by some to be a viable breeding population and the DNR in Michigan has even admitted that the cats do indeed roam free in much of the northern portion of the state. Of course, the wilderness expanse of northern Michigan is much greater than anywhere along the trail except Maine.
funkyfreddy
05-10-2004, 23:35
Here are some cougar links - I hope you have lots of spare time!
http://www.thelandmark.com/story.php3?story=6321
http://www.umich.edu/~esupdate/marapr2002/johnson.htm
http://www.interl.net/~starcave/News02.html
http://pets.surfwax.com/files/Eastern_Cougar.html
http://www.cqservices.com/MyCQ/News/Default.asp?V=2558
http://aginfo.psu.edu/News/January04/mountainlions.html
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/c_mlion.htm
http://www.seacoastonline.com/2000news/1_10_sb2.htm
http://millersriver.mossbrook.com/board/
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/carch01.htm
http://www.chattoogariver.org/Articles/2002S/Cougar.htm
http://www.lorencoleman.com/loren_coleman_1.html
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/news.htm
http://www.beastinthegarden.com/
I've lived here all my life but havn't seen one yet. The old timers have seen them and say they are still out there. I don't know what they sound like but I heard some crazy meowing that made froze us in our tracks. It wasn't a bobcat. The Park Service has been tracking reports for years but no confirmation, that is if you need one from the Park service. We call them painters or black cats etc. The wolf reintro program had 2 groups, 1 on the TN side, another on the Cherokee. The TN side program failed but I've heard the Cherokee side made it, but I'm not sure. TN wasn't a top notch reintro in my opinion.
loonyhiker
05-11-2004, 08:19
Go ahead and call me loony but...
2 years ago hubby and I were hiking near Tremont in the Smokies and got off the trail to eat lunch. We were just sitting there quietly, not talking, and enjoying nature when we saw this big beige cat-like animal bound past us on the trail. We both would swear it was a cougar but when I asked, I was told there were no cougars in the smokies. I believe for whatever reason (abandoned pet etc.), there is at least one cougar in the smokies!
smokymtnsteve
05-11-2004, 08:45
there have been reports some years back by park service personnel of a cougar sighting in catalooche
Has Cougars been introduced to the Appalachian Mountains yet?. This past weekend a north bound thru-hiker posted in register that he was sure he saw a cougar near Brown Fork Shelter last week, also some section hikers saw some large cat tracks nearby.
B Thrash
this is very possible...as a GEORGIA parks site (mentioned on this site earlier when this subject came up) talks about cougars (or mountain lions) in GA, NC, TN, & VA.
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/cougarse.htm (http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/cougarse.htm)
also, there are Wolves (grey & red) in the Appalachians (according to a GSMNP ranger)...even though some of them were removed after they left the GSMNP range...
dont forget, there are also coyotes, & bobcats along with the many bears in the Appalachian Mountain range.
smokymtnsteve
05-11-2004, 08:53
Lion and tigers and bears ..oh my
Kerosene
05-11-2004, 10:12
I surprised a large, fawn-colored, apparent feline on a bright sunny day in October 2001 about 5 miles south of Harpers Ferry. I came around a corner and saw an animal, about the size of a medium dog, 40 yards ahead by the side of the trail. Without thinking, I clapped my hands to startle the animal. Much to my surprise, it looked at me and rapidly loped out of sight, showing a long, thin tail and a feline grace that other animals lack. I couldn't believe it. As I passed by the spot, I suddenly got a little concerned that the damn thing might be tracking me and kept up a good pace while looking over my shoulder.
Jack Tarlin
05-11-2004, 11:35
If you do a Google search on "Cougar sightings Eastern U.S." you'll get around 3,000 hits.
While many of the "sightings" in recent years have been something else---coyote, bobcat, etc., and while some sightings undoubtedly are released or escaped pets (tho why anyone would want a pet cougar kinda escapes me), the evidence seems clear that in some of these sightings, we are actually talking about real mountain lions. I personally have talked to several folks in Northern Vermont who are VERY steady and reliable folks, and they're positive that the big cats are back.
I'm not saying that they're common. But they almost certainly ARE out there.
Spirit Walker
05-11-2004, 11:43
When we did a backpacking trip in the Shenandoahs in January we ran across cougar tracks in the snow. They were huge. We stopped at the ranger station on the way out and were told, "Yes, we've had several reports of a mountain lion in that area. We plan to put up a camera there to get proof." I wonder if they ever did?
Anybody know of a documented case of one being shot or road killed?
B Thrash
also, there are Wolves (grey & red) in the Appalachians (according to a GSMNP ranger)...even though some of them were removed after they left the GSMNP range...
The GSMNP ranger is mis-informed. While red wolves were introduced, there are currently no grey wolves anywhere along the appalachian trail. I worked for 2 years with USF&W on grey wolf re-introduction in the west, and most of the reason there are no re-introduction plans in the east is because they need ranges that are far larger than red wolves. In most of the area's large and wild enough to support grey wolves, such as found in Minnesota, Michigan, and Northern Maine, the wolves are starting to make a comeback on their own, and from a conservation point of view, that is much better, because if they do so on their own, they fall under the protection of the Endangered Species Act, something that populations re-introduced by the gov't don't always benefit from.
Eye-witness accounts of wolves need to be taken with a grain of salt. Many large coyotes and dog breeds look strikingly similar to wolves to an untrained eye, and many breeds of dog that breed with coyotes yield off-spring that are remarkably wolf-like in appearance. I've seen a malamute-coyote mix before, and it was incredible how closely it looked like a wolf. In a biological sense, wolves, dogs, and coyotes are really the same species in the only test that we can administer; they can breed with no detrimental effects in the off-spring (meaning their off-spring and decendents are not sterile).
Eye-witness accounts of mountain lions are a bit different. Even someone who doesn't know wildlife would easily discern a bobcat from a mountain lion, and no domesticated animal is even close! I mean, if you see a 6 foot long cat in North America, what else could it be?
Eye-witness accounts of mountain lions are a bit different. Even someone who doesn't know wildlife would easily discern a bobcat from a mountain lion, and no domesticated animal is even close! I mean, if you see a 6 foot long cat in North America, what else could it be?
I would have to disagree with you on this, notice in this very thread someone has posted that they thought they had seen a mountain lion and that it was the size of a medium sized dog. I have had the great honor of getting up close and personal with a few cougars and I can tell you, they are vastly larger than a medium sized dog, they make a really big dog look fairly inconsequential when it comes right down to it. I really don't trust sightings by your average joe, even if the average joe is an experienced hiker or has lived in the area for their entire life. I used to manage pet shops that specialized in reptiles and amphibians. Every Summer we would have insane amounts of people coming into the shop telling us they had just seen, or killed, a copperhead snake. The strange thing is that copperheads aren't known to live in the area the pet shops were located. We started asking people to bring in the body if they said they had killed a copperhead, and after 5 or 6 years of looking at dead snakes I saw a lot of banded water snakes and eastern milksnakes, even a few grey rat snakes, but not a single copperhead. Some of the people bringing them in would try and argue with us when we told them what kind of snake they had actually killed, commonly their arguments would ammount to "I know it's a copperhead cause I know snakes, I grew up on a farm!" Strangely none of them grew up on snake farms (we asked) and so I was unable to see how the two things related.
Anyway, if you do know what a copperhead looks like you know that they are exceptionally variable in color and pattern, but at the same time they are exceptionally distinctive snakes when it comes to the shape of their body's. If so many people can mistake a harmless eastern milksnake for a copperhead (and you would be amazed how many snakes are 6' long when described but only 2' long when actually measured) I have no doubt that people are mistaking house cats, dogs, and deer for mountain lions.
That being said I did come across a couple of enormous tracks with no visible claws on the trail just south of Hot Springs a few years ago.
Alligator
05-11-2004, 13:11
A related essay in the NY Times today. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/science/11ESSA.html
More humorous than scientific.
bobgessner57
05-11-2004, 13:20
Saw big cat tracks in very fresh snow this past Thanksgiving on the Low Gap Trail leading from Big Creek up to the AT. Snow was less than 2 hours old and kitty was loping up the trail toward the crest, stopping to snuff out mice or other small animals along the way. The tracks were about 2 1/4 inches across, (measured with a dollar bill and pencil, dollar is 2x6 and regular pencil is 1/4 inch). My tracking book says bobcat tracks are about 1 3/4 across, cougar 3. Don't know if it was a big bobcat or an immature cougar. Whatever it was had stirred up the wildlife because there were a number of sets of tracks from spooked deer, etc.
Torch- I know the wildlife professionals often take such reports with a heavy dose of skepticism. Would a plaster cast of odd tracks be considered credible documentation? I occasionally do castings for teaching purposes and might consider the luxury on short trips in places where one might encounter unique tracks, especially if it might help document the presence of rare or endangered species.
Torch- I know the wildlife professionals often take such reports with a heavy dose of skepticism. Would a plaster cast of odd tracks be considered credible documentation? I occasionally do castings for teaching purposes and might consider the luxury on short trips in places where one might encounter unique tracks, especially if it might help document the presence of rare or endangered species.One problem isn't necessarily that they are skeptical, though they may come off that way, but that they simply don't want to deal with the headache of having an returning endangered species on their plot of governance. Even if you make a cast, the likely response would be that it is the track of an escaped exotic pet or that of a large dog (even when it is obviously not a dog). Look at the recent case in Michigan, where people had been reporting seeing a wolverine in the Thumb to DNR, plus tracks being cast for years, but it wasn't until a few months ago when a couple hunters video taped it. That probably would have been met with skepticism as well except they treed it until a DNR officer arrived to see it with his own eyes.
Needles...yeah, I guess you're right. The identification skills of people lack. I think some people WANT to see bigfoot, so they see it in everything. I know what you are talking about with the snakes. Everyone wants the snake they saw to be dangerous, even when you can show them that the dead snake doesn't even have fangs they swear it is a poisonous snake. Still, some animals are more easily mistaken than others. I will not believe a wolf sighting unless it comes from Rolf Peterson himself, but I am a little more forgiving of a cougar sighting simply because they are so distinct, at least in my eyes. I've only seen two in the wild, and they were unmistakable. (They were also in areas where they were relatively common, so no ghost stories here.)
sherrill
05-11-2004, 15:53
Sadly, people do keep them as pets, as I have witnessed.
When I was at UNC-Chapel Hill, I lived across the street (McCauley) from a man who kept one locked in a rather small cage. A girlfriend at the time called animal control, but apparently there was nothing illegal about it, or they just didn't care.
After moving to Pittsboro, NC, I volunteered at the Carnivore Preservation Trust in the early 90's. One of CPT's missions is rescuing animals such as this that are abandoned. There was (at that time) a cougar they had rescued. Seeing one up close and personal, I can tell you that you won't mistake one for a bobcat or small dog!
I work with a woman whose mother lives near Franklin. She tells me that her mom claims a black panther comes around the house at times, but there is no hard evidence to prove it.
Eye-witness accounts of mountain lions are a bit different. Even someone who doesn't know wildlife would easily discern a bobcat from a mountain lion, and no domesticated animal is even close! I mean, if you see a 6 foot long cat in North America, what else could it be?
Cougars in the wild again would be great, but eyewitness accounts of any sort are notoriously unreliable. The accuracy of eyewitness identification depends on numerous variables. Without tangible corroborating evidence - like a carcass or DNA verified scat - cougars are rural legends.
Funkyfreddy - Thanks for posting the links.
Singletrack
05-11-2004, 16:58
In September 2004, I saw 2 Black Panthers about 2 miles North of Carter Gap in the Nantahalas. After my hike I contacted a local Forest Ranger. and told him about it. He also said he knew a family, that these Black Panthers come up into their back yard. Evidently they were turned loose in the Nantahalas. They were scary.
Mountain lions don't need a particularly wilderness environment to exist. They have been found in cornfields all over Iowa and one was found not too far from the Mall of America in Bloomington, MN---about 7 miles or so from downtown Minneapolis.
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/minnesota6-2-02.htm
They have also been confirmed in Illinois and Kentucky. I have no doubt that they will eventually make their way to the eastern seaboard--if not there already. Wherever you've got a lot of deer, which is virtually everywhere nowadays, you'll probably end up with mountain lions.
Ramble~On
05-19-2004, 03:58
I HAVE SEEN COUGAR ON TRAILS!!! unfortunately, when I lived in California.
Two years ago while hiking the "Fodderstack Trail" (about 10 miles SW of GSMNP) We followed "big" cat tracks in fresh snow, it was snowing pretty hard and those tracks were "fresh". As we never saw the cat I can't say for certain.
Yes, it could have been a big bobcat. I like to think that there are still a few around. I have heard of sightings. But I haven't seen any in TN, NC or GA.
There are some surviving red wolves... I have seen them.
I saw one near Indian Boundary Lake in TN and another in the Snowbird Wilderness Area in NC. I haven't seen any in the Park and it seems that those that were introduced to the Park have moved outside it's borders or died.
I am no expert on this but from what I understand Red Wolves continue to be introduced into Cherokee National Forest in TN...
steve hiker
06-20-2004, 19:52
I've never run into a cougar or big cat in the East. Out west there are tales, but they're rare.
I am no expert on this but from what I understand Red Wolves continue to be introduced into Cherokee National Forest in TN...
Likely what you saw was a coyote, not a red wolf. All the red wolves re-introduced into that area were recaptured and relocated due to the fact that they were not fairing very well. By nature, the primary habitat of a red wolf is coastal and near-coast foothills, not mountains, so it was a pretty crappy area to re-locate them in to begin with. I was involved with wolf re-introduction out west for several years, and I've met some pretty good wolf biologist who can't easily tell the difference between a large coyote and a red wolf. Reds simply are not as distinctive as a gray wolf and have a similar coat color, face shape, and profile of a coyote. Also, in areas of the central Appalachians where some people let their dogs run a bit more freely, there are many "coy-dogs" that are similar in look to a coyote but run in the 50-70 pound range. These could be easily mistaken for a red wolf.
johnny quest
06-28-2004, 15:39
i grew up in the florida panhandle the authorities always said that the florida panther was next too extinct. i personally saw three growing up in the 70s. my daddy saw them often. they said there were no bears in the swamp. i saw one. daddy saw three. now they admit that florida panthers do exist. surprise surprise. mountain lions are very adept at staying out of the way, believe it.
Ramble~On
06-28-2004, 15:48
Likely what you saw was a coyote, not a red wolf. All the red wolves re-introduced into that area were recaptured and relocated due to the fact that they were not fairing very well. By nature, the primary habitat of a red wolf is coastal and near-coast foothills, not mountains, so it was a pretty crappy area to re-locate them in to begin with. I was involved with wolf re-introduction out west for several years, and I've met some pretty good wolf biologist who can't easily tell the difference between a large coyote and a red wolf. Reds simply are not as distinctive as a gray wolf and have a similar coat color, face shape, and profile of a coyote. Also, in areas of the central Appalachians where some people let their dogs run a bit more freely, there are many "coy-dogs" that are similar in look to a coyote but run in the 50-70 pound range. These could be easily mistaken for a red wolf.
Perhaps. but I am pretty familiar with coyotes and coy dogs.
If what I saw was either...it was definately different.
Likely what you saw was a coyote, not a red wolf. All the red wolves re-introduced into that area were recaptured and relocated due to the fact that they were not fairing very well. By nature, the primary habitat of a red wolf is coastal and near-coast foothills, not mountains, ..................................etcetcetc....... ....................
You are incorrect my friend!
There are RED WOLVES in the SMOKIES...not as many as there were...but, they do continue to flourish in a somewhat smaller pocket areas than originally wished...but, none-the-less...they are there.
You dont have to take my word...i got this from a Ranger @ Clingmans Dome & Sugarlands visitors center.
Also, the Red Wolves were re-introduced to the area because they were a native species about 100 years ago & were trapped/hunted til none were left in this region. (just like the Elk!)
and on the original topic...Cougars, mountain lions, or panthers...are also in the SouthEast....always have been... always will be!
I have old articles concerning the early to mid 1800s when Robert Collins was helping cut paths/trails to the tops of summits in the Smokies & he noted in his journals, bears & cougars. They are elusive cats....& shy away from humans..most times....but cant hide always. Thats why you'll continue to get sightings in the Appalachian range.
SGT Rock
06-28-2004, 17:15
BTW, for nostalgia, according to some oral traditions, panthers were often reffered to as painters in some areas up in the mountains along the TN, NC borders.
johnny quest
06-28-2004, 17:35
ever heard them called catamounts?
Western Carolina University's teams are called the catamounts.
johnny quest
06-28-2004, 17:44
im a big history nut and i cant tell you how many stories ive read from the 1700-1800s telling about fighting or hunting catamounts. and painters. my grandma called them painters
im a big history nut and i cant tell you how many stories ive read from the 1700-1800s telling about fighting or hunting catamounts. and painters. my grandma called them painters
There is a painter branch on the AT between I-40 and Snowbird Mt. in NC. Have any references to the painter stories?
About 25 years ago I saw a painter in the Smokies; in fact, I'm the only one I know who almost ran over one.
johnny quest
06-28-2004, 18:19
when i was about 13 my mother and i were visiting neighbors. now, understand that down on jakes bayou, florida visiting neighbors means a 10 minute hike thru palmettos and oak trees and two fences. we stayed past dark and as we were coming back thru one of the barb wire fences one of those extinct florida painters cried out. this scream came just as i was holding the second and third rungs of the barb wire apart for momma to come thru the fence. well, our reactions were self defeating. momma froze crouched there between the wires and i let go of said wires. the relieving tension of those wires put some pretty good barb holes in her head and back. but she didnt feel a thing. we ran all the way back to the double wide
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 18:22
They call them catamounts up in Vermont. Lotsa sightings when I lived up there.
lostjohn
06-28-2004, 22:40
My Grandfather told of huge 'bobcats' that lived in W NC and E TN in the late 1800's early 1900's. He told of one so big that a six foot man held the front legs over his shoulder and the back feet touched the ground. I often wondered if it was a lynx and if they could still be around.
Here in coastal (lowcountry) SC there are cougar sightings reported every so often. Haven't seen one, would like to. I remember being on the Holston Mtns. in SW VA in the late 50"s (I was just a kid) and hearing the older men talk of hearing several cougars calling at the same time. That must have been interesting.
There is a painter branch on the AT between I-40 and Snowbird Mt. in NC. Have any references to the painter stories?
About 25 years ago I saw a painter in the Smokies; in fact, I'm the only one I know who almost ran over one.
YIKES!
we camped @ PAINTERS BRANCH this past May ("the Model T crew" section-hike=Clingmans to Hot Springs)...in fact, we heard a "critter" outside our tents during the nite....maybe a "painter"? h-m-m-m-m-m-m-m :D
There have been confirmed sightings of cougars in northern Vermont, near where I live. After one of the sightings, scat was found, sent to a lab, and it was verified that mtn lion hair was present (presumably from the cat licking itself). Whether they have been escaped pets or part of a migrating population is unclear. Your chances of ever seeing one, or being threatened by one, are remote in New England. On the CDT, it's a different matter. I have found and filmed fresh lion tracks just north of the Bob Marshall wilderness. That, and grizzly tracks. Out there you get the feeling that you're somewhere in the middle of the food chain.
Hikerhead
07-05-2004, 21:42
I met Grizzly Dave in SNP yesterday and he said he spotted a Mtn Lion down around Humpback Rock about a week ago. I read on Trail Journals where two different people had spotted one in about the same area and time.
My Grandfather told of huge 'bobcats' that lived in W NC and E TN in the late 1800's early 1900's. He told of one so big that a six foot man held the front legs over his shoulder and the back feet touched the ground. I often wondered if it was a lynx and if they could still be around.
Here in coastal (lowcountry) SC there are cougar sightings reported every so often. Haven't seen one, would like to. I remember being on the Holston Mtns. in SW VA in the late 50"s (I was just a kid) and hearing the older men talk of hearing several cougars calling at the same time. That must have been interesting.
Lynx have been confirmed breeders in northern Maine. They found a den with some kits a few years ago. The den was (in all places) in a clearcut! I don't say that to advocate for clearcutting. Just to point out an interesting factoid.
http://lynx.uio.no/lynx/nancy/news/mejy988u.htm