Staying warm...HELP!

[Live the Journey]

Alright, I know this time of year this is the topic of the hour, but it's got me a little concerned.
On my shakedown hike around Carvers Gap this past weekend I brought what I was planning on starting my thru hike with on March 23ed. The outcome was not what I had hoped. I was fine during the day and hiking but I was cold in the mornings and before bed and I was cold while I slept. My clothing list is:

Patagonia Cap 1's (top and bottom)
Cap 2's (top and Bottom)
Cap 3's (3/4 zip top and knicker bottoms)
a Tech t shirt
a very thin fleece pullover (thinner then a 100 weight)
REI Taku rain Jacket
Mountain hardwear Yuma convertible pants
Windstopper hat
Fellce Neck Gaitor
smartwool socks
OR Crocodile Gaitors

At camp I became a little worried when I had on EVERYTHING I'd brought and was still shivering. I switched out my socks for a dry pair after getting into camp, then put my boots and gaitors back on, cinched up the hood on my rain jacket, etc. and I was still cold. I ate well, I drank warm sugary liquids, etc. I felt like I did everything, and I was still cold. Here's the kicker is that it was just below freezing. I KNOW it's going to be colder then that, and I also know that being cold it part of doing a thru hike, but I'm worried that I was crossing over from "being cold" to being colder then I should be to be safe.
I slept cold in my 15* bag, but I think I'm going to add my 40* bag to it for the beginning of my hike, so I think I've covered my sleeping situation.

I guess I'm wondering what I'm missing to stay a little warmer?

P.S. I can't wear wool, except socks. Wool hats and long underwear make me break out in a rash!

[Tipi Walter]

Welcome to the world of the cold. It looks like you got the capilene layers figured out, just might need to work on the fleece and the outermost: goose down vest or jacket.

Also, I'd add a balaclava in combo with another watch style cap. And I'd go for a zero bag and dispense with carrying two bags although in the summer it's a bit much--you'll never zip up a zero bag in the summer, just use it like a blanket.

Sitting around in camp is the true test of clothing gear, hiking is not as heat is generated, etc. When it gets really cold I forego hanging out in camp and hit the pad and sleeping bag, if only just to sit up mostly covered in goose down and read or write and get warm. True winter warmth in camp while standing around comes only thru heavier goose down parkas and pants--too much for the normal backpacker.

[jlb2012]

make yourself a hot water bottle before hitting the sack - stick it between your legs (femoral artery) - if using boiling water for bottle put bottle in a sock to protect yourself

[bigcranky]

You have three base layers, effectively, and no insulation layer.

The key to warmth on the trail in winter and early spring is a puffy jacket, or at least a puffy vest. I would swap out the Cap 3 layers for a Micropuff pullover (or the hooded jacket), or a Montbell down parka with a hood. Neither of these weighs more than a pound, and they offer far more warmth than what you used. You can also wear them in your bag for added warmth.

You also might add a fleece balaclava for sleeping, and fleece mittens or gloves for around camp. I like the windstopper glove/mitts things that let me use my fingertips while cooking and eating.

You'll likely wear the Cap 1 for hiking, right? Then you should decide if you want the Cap 2 or the 3 for wear around camp. Under the puffy jacket, of course.

[garlic08]

It sounds like you need a "puffy" layer, as they say. When I started the AT in April last year, my last-minute gear addition was a down vest. I really flip-flopped on that decision, thinking how cold can it be in Georgia in April. It was a really good decision to bring it.

[Frick Frack]

I agree that an insulated vest is invaluable. That along with my rain jacket to hold in the warmth made me good down into the 20's.

[Cabin Fever]

Don't neglect the fact that you are not starting for a while. While still possible, the chances of cold weather start to diminish.

I second the notion of a hot water bottle. I was skeptical until I tried it. It works! If it's real cold, use 2.

[Hoop]

Those air-activated warmers helped me sleep when I woke up cold. They last at least 6 hrs. So what if it's cheating.

[sbennett]

If you go with one of the light puffy items you might even be able to lose the Cap 2 set (top at least) in order to even out the weight addition. I wholeheartedly endorse the idea of a balaclava as well.

You said you ate well, but what exactly did you eat? Certain foods burn a little longer than others....

[Blissful]

If you are cold, bring a down jacket. I did until May.

What 15 degree bag do you have as not all temp ratings are alike? You can bring a silk liner too to add some degrees rather than a 40 degree bag which I think is overkill leaving the end of March.

[Live the Journey]

Now that you all have added some great posts, I forgot to say that I also had a Montbell Thermawrap jacket too...important thing to forget!
For dinner I ate a protien (tuna/chicken/tried spam for the first time) and a starch (mashed potatos, scalloped potatos, etc) and when its cold I'll add on a dessert and something fatty (usually butter) to whatever I'm eating or drinking. I made sure to drink something really warm right before bed too.
As for my sleeping bag, I know that a 15 bag *for me* is good to about freezing, and I know that adding on my 40* bag is warm enough for me to about 10* perhaps lower, so I think I might stick with that.

I'm almost wondering if I should switch out my Thermawrap for a fluffier down vest or jacket that I already have?

[bigcranky]

The Thermawrap is a nice, light layer, but it's not really all that puffy for fall-winter-spring. You might want to add a thicker down vest over or under the Thermawrap, or get a thicker jacket for now, and swap out for the Thermawrap later.

[SGT Rock]

Alright, I know this time of year this is the topic of the hour, but it's got me a little concerned.
On my shakedown hike around Carvers Gap this past weekend I brought what I was planning on starting my thru hike with on March 23ed. The outcome was not what I had hoped. I was fine during the day and hiking but I was cold in the mornings and before bed and I was cold while I slept. My clothing list is:

Patagonia Cap 1's (top and bottom)
Cap 2's (top and Bottom)
Cap 3's (3/4 zip top and knicker bottoms)
a Tech t shirt
a very thin fleece pullover (thinner then a 100 weight)
REI Taku rain Jacket
Mountain hardwear Yuma convertible pants
Windstopper hat
Fellce Neck Gaitor
smartwool socks
OR Crocodile Gaitors

At camp I became a little worried when I had on EVERYTHING I'd brought and was still shivering. I switched out my socks for a dry pair after getting into camp, then put my boots and gaitors back on, cinched up the hood on my rain jacket, etc. and I was still cold. I ate well, I drank warm sugary liquids, etc. I felt like I did everything, and I was still cold. Here's the kicker is that it was just below freezing. I KNOW it's going to be colder then that, and I also know that being cold it part of doing a thru hike, but I'm worried that I was crossing over from "being cold" to being colder then I should be to be safe.
I slept cold in my 15* bag, but I think I'm going to add my 40* bag to it for the beginning of my hike, so I think I've covered my sleeping situation.

I guess I'm wondering what I'm missing to stay a little warmer?

P.S. I can't wear wool, except socks. Wool hats and long underwear make me break out in a rash!
FWIW you didn't describe your entire day. For all we know you were hiking in all that stuff too - so you got extra hot before even getting to camp. Hiking in too much clothing is also a bad thing.

So let me give you some suggestions.

Set a "base layer" that is what you would hike in, in any weather. For me it is microfiber underwear (prevents thigh chafe on me), shorts, underarmor t-shirt, and a baseball hat. Even this weekend in 40 degree weather, this is likely what you will see me in.

Now while you are hiking in that sort of weather (above 40s say) you may get cold, but this is normally from wind - not from the air temp because you are generating enough heat. The biggest mistake I see people do at this point is put their base insulation layer on. What you really need is a wind blocking layer. For this I use a windshirt, a Buff, and my rain pants. I can effectively use this sort of layer when walking even down into the 20s. Sometimes I will have to add my gloves if the hands are getting cold holding my poles. But if you don't use poles you can tuck your hands into pockets.

Now the next layer is your real base insulation layer. You seem to have a lot of those. This is what I keep in the top of my pack to grab when I stop for a break or as soon as I get to camp in cold weather. It is easier to STAY warm, than it is to WARM UP. Remember that! My base insulation layer is wool gloves, a wool cap, dry wool socks, and Powerstretch fleece top and bottom. This, with my wind bock put back on outside it will keep me prety warm in camp even into the high 20s and if I have to walk in cold I can do it with this layer even in single digits. But the important thing to remember when walking with this layer is when you start to get comfortable it is probably time to take it off. I even normally try to leave camp a little uncomfortably cold because I know when I walk I will get warm.

And finally you need a puffy layer as we call it in my family. Down jackets are good. I also really like Army surplus field jacket liners and field pants liners for this. This layer is invaluable in really cold weather and you will be glad you have it. A WM down jacket weighs about 12 ounces and is as thick as about 3 or 4 layers of fleece. But unless you are walking out of the mountains to civilization in a blizzard - you should avoid hiking in this layer at all costs. In my poffy layerr I have a a thick pair of wool socks, 300 wt fleece gloves, a fleece neck gaiter, a surplus pair of field pants liners, and a new WM down jacket (last year on the trail it was a field jacket liner).

And finally - staying dry is 50% of the fight (at least) so avoid ever getting sweaty in the first place by having the discipline to shed layers as soon as possible. Avoid any cotton in your clothing. And use rain gear to protect your fleece and down from moisture in camp.

[George]

My set up for 0 keep the cap2 top and bottom,rain gear to fit over insulated clothing, fleece hat, fleece gloves, insulated mitts and wind shirt with hood. add down jacket WITH HOOD and synthetic insulated pants with full zip legs no need for extra bag (sleeping in clothing slide the pants down over feet) less items, same weight and can be adjusted for full range of temp/wind with zippers and hoods - may not be 0 for you but should be good for 10F. If you start in the morning or break hiking in the down jacket wear it backwards to avoid the sweaty back it will not take long to shed it

[karoberts]

I am cold all the time, so I know a little bit about staying warm.

1. Get a good 800 fill down jacket and maybe even down bottoms (or at least synthetic insulated bottoms).
2. Get a fleece Balaclava.
3. Spring for a 0 degree bag. I would say REI Kilo Plus, but they stopped selling them.
4. Fill a Nalgene with boiling water and bring it to bed with you.
5. Consider down booties.
6. The very best solution is to co-sleep. This can work with a dog (as long as your sleeping bag is big enough) or a friend (zip two sleeping bags together).

Most of this will cost you a lot of bananas! However, co-sleeping is very cost-effective.

[Mongoose2]

LTJ; I am very warm while walking, but at night after dinner I get cold quick, especially after a high mileage day. Rock was right on the money with his advice, I would only add one thing. Since I am a VERY cold sleeper in cold weather I use a campmor 0 degree down bag, down booties, and add my mid weight thermals to sleep in. I sometimes throw on a hat...like I said I sleep cold

[shelterbuilder]

Lots of good advice here. Tipi Walter hit the nail on the head when he talked about climbing into his bag and sitting around. If you do any amount of cold weather camping, this is something that you do as a matter of course.

Sgt. Rock was right about hiking cool/cold and keeping your clothing as dry and sweat-free as possible.

Question: was the air DAMP that night? Damp air will make you feel colder than dry air. Was there snow/slush on the ground? Fog in the air? These things will have an effect on how cold you feel.

[Live the Journey]

You guys are awesome.....great posts, thanks!
Shelterbuilder, to answer your question, yes, the air was damp and the wind could suck the nutrition right off of your body!
I'm def. looking into a balaclava, and I'm thinking I'll probably bring my Marmot down jacket as well...I can always send it home when I don't need it, but I'd rather carry a bit more weight for a few weeks then not have a good time because I'm freezing!

[gonewalkabout]

Well if you expect to be toasty that won't happen however you should not be shivering. Your on your way to Hypothermia. Get a down jackect. By down I don't mean a light weight 7-12 oz jackect. I mean A real down swearter with an inch of loft. Size your rain jackect to wear off the down without compressing it. The rain shell will keep the down dry and provide another layer to trap heat. Eat as soon as you stop. Although you double your fuel consumption for dinners I like to have 2-3 cups of a hot bervage as I am stting up for the night. Cup a soups, teas whatever. It warm your core up quickly and also rehydrate you as in colder weather we sometimes don't drink as much as we should.

[bigcranky]

....I'd rather carry a bit more weight for a few weeks then not have a good time because I'm freezing!


This is exactly the right thing, in my opinion. There is only one thing worse than wearing all your clothes in camp and still being cold, and that is climbing in your sleeping bag at 5:00pm and still being cold.

It's a balancing act, of course -- it's possible to take this idea too far, and lug a 50 pound base weight up Springer -- but I see a lot of cold hikers out there in March who thought that "spring" in the mountains of Georgia is the same as spring back home.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Just wondering because you didn't mention it...

Where were you camped? An AT shelter may provide wind break but they're a big cold thermal mass, tent will shelter from wind and add 10 deg to your comfort, tarp doesn't do much if the wind is swirling. Also, the lee side of a ridge will often be less windy and warmer than the windward side for obvious reasons. And more applicable when it's not windy, low spots will often be much colder than those slightly uphill from the low spot in a valley, meadow, etc, as the colder air will sink and fill the valley floor-- even just 20 feet in elevation can sometimes make a big difference.

[sbennett]

Sgt. Rock nailed it.

[Wags]

also try doing a quick set of calistenics (sp?) before jumping into your sleeping bag. not enough to make you start sweating, but enough to get your heart rate up and get the blood flowing. this takes advantage of what rock said about easier to keep warm than warm up. the air in your bag will heat up fast b/c of your body heat and the bag will feel warmer, quicker

[Live the Journey]

Wow...your posts keep getting better and better!

I didn't mention, Buzzard, but my shelter is a 10X8 foot sil tarp and a bivy (which I use in colder weather, switch out for netting when it's warmer)

on this shakedown trip my pack in total (with water and food) weighed in at 27 lbs. I think switching my thermawrap for my Marmot down sweater and adding my 40* bag will make it just under 29...but I drop a lot of that when the weather warms up. Not exactly ul, but I think I'm happy with that for the time being.