Ideas for Dealing with Odd/Suspicious People & Scenarios

[BR360]

Reading a post in another thread about someone "hiking" with suitcases on the AT got me thinking about dealing with odd and suspicious people.

(Weird people are a different matter, because most hikers are weird :D.)

Because I'm male, I'm guessing I've probably run into fewer problems than I might if I were female, and that the general threat scenario is less. But I've still run into a few loose screws and budding psychopaths out there. And I'm betting that with all the layoffs, there will be more odd and perhaps unsavory people on the trails this year with time on their hands.

Since the murders of the Bryans and Meredith Emerson, and also getting to my intended campsite in Pisgah Forest late one Friday night last September only to find a bunch of drunk and aggressive young males with BB guns shooting up the place---I have come to the conclusion that prudence calls for adaptation. [Like say, carrying a special hidden "friend." That I'd rather not have to use.]

For instance, now when I go solo I do not hike to the point where I have to quit due to fatigue. I leave some capacity so that if I get to a place that doesn't feel "right" I can continue on down the trail and away from the potential trouble. I have to say that having a hammock gives me MUCH greater flexibility, since i don't have to have a flat place to sleep...I can just string it up between trees on the side of a hill if need be; this provides much greater "stealth" in that on the side of a hill is NOT where trouble is likely to find me.

I know that perps always "interview" their victims to ascertain their vulnerability. They're looking for signs of weakness, and the psychopaths are often damn good at reading body language.

So, I've developed the following scripts to answer when "chatting" with people until I get a better feel for them. I follow my gut, and I consider their general bearing, eye contact, do they "push the boundaries," seem to personal/inquisitive, etc.

Q: [Them] "Where ya going to?"
A: I'm out hiking around these hills. How about you?

Q: [Them] "What do you like about being out here?"
A: All of it. Exercise, nature, the way you can hear all the sounds from far away.

Q: [Them] "Where you coming from?"
A. South [or North/East/West] of here a ways.

Q: [Them] "Got any friends coming?"
A. Yeah, we're spread out along the trail. How about you?

Q: [Them] "Planning on staying/camping here tonight?"
A: Just resting for now. I'll figure it out in a little while. How about you?

Q: [Them] "How many nights you out for?"
A: I take it one day at a time. You?

Q: [Them] "Mind if I come with you?"
A: I don't think that would be a good idea.

Q: [Them] "What are you, some sort of loner?"
A: Let's just say I like my space and leave it at that. [change subject].

I thought this might help some folks about to hit the trail this year, especially newbies who have less epxerience and need more thoughtful preparation.

Any other ideas for handling difficult & touchy situations?

[Scrapes]

On the way to Springer last year my friend and i stopped at Fontana Dam and walked around a bit, ended up at the "hilton" where there was a solo woman hiker there. Just talked with her a bit when she hit me with, "yea, I'm waiting for my friends that are hiking up behind me".

Pretty clear she was there a while and I had the realization, I made her nervous.

Geez, she used the I got friends coming line on me. Oh well, I smiled and moved on you can't alleviate the fear.

[Slimer]

Start a casual conversation about the CCW class you just finished, and be sure to mention that great deal you got on that HK .45

[Pedaling Fool]

Any one ever talk to the Deposed queen of England? I think here real name is Peggy and she usually hangs around the Fullhardt Knob shelter and surrounding area.

[Lone Wolf]

i met her a couple of times

[buff_jeff]

I don't really think about it. I try not to live my life in fear. Just use your intuition. If your Spidey-sense is tingling, get out, if not, stay.

[Nicksaari]

is she some type pf vagrant? Hey LW- im taking the last week of may off for a trek through the highlands southbound for Damascus, ride the creeper trail w my brother. im beside myself with anticipation.

seeing someone on trail, one of the first things i notice is gear/clothes. i believe that even a hiker thats not the quickest of cats/the best of times would be able to discern a sketchy person from brethren. as crappy as it sounds, just about everyone judges books by their covers...first impressions tainted or enthusiastic. i guess what im trying to say is never to keep your guard down, always be aware of your environment, keep and ear upwind at all times, etc

[snowhoe]

In 2006 I remember being in GA. and we met a guy in cowboy boots and a leather trench coat and he had a huge backpack on. Semi weird but he was carring a pick ax. I asked what he was doing and he kinda gave me the run around and then he finally told me he was looking for gold and a couple days later I heard from some people that were behind me at the time say that he was digging a big hole in the ground right off the trail. So I guess he was looking for gold. Still weird.

[Gumbi]

I just kick them in the nuts.

[snowhoe]

Hey what if they dont have any. They just dont have to be guys to be weird.

[Nicksaari]

yeah thats the thing, most ppl hope that someone sketchy doesnt come into camp. on the contrary, i wish some person comes in my camp. ive always wondered how easy/fun it would be to incapacitate a harmful person with a nice, long, heavy piece of firewood.
bury them right there, deliverance style, mark the grave with some rocks. haha. hopefully i will never have take the road to cross that bridge, and wish all the peace and serenity to everyone's adventure.

[Lilred]

yeah thats the thing, most ppl hope that someone sketchy doesnt come into camp. on the contrary, i wish some person comes in my camp. ive always wondered how easy/fun it would be to incapacitate a harmful person with a nice, long, heavy piece of firewood.
bury them right there, deliverance style, mark the grave with some rocks. haha. hopefully i will never have take the road to cross that bridge, and wish all the peace and serenity to everyone's adventure.

Ok Nick, just crossed you off of 'people I want to hike with' list......;):p

[snowhoe]

I second that lilred:)

[WritinginCT]

I tend to have some pretty strong feelings when it comes to personal safety- and I pretty much have a set spiel that I share - here 'tis:

Having been the victim of a violent crime (raped at gunpoint when I was 21) my views on personal safety tend to be a little different than most. (and probably a little skewed quite frankly)

I tend to have a very loose and carefree demeanor and I refuse to let "what could happen" stop me from doing anything, because honestly, short of being murdered the worst has already happened to me and I survived. I trust my gut when it comes to my own safety. I've hung out in places that most wouldn't and with people that the average person would shy away from.

The one thing I would advise is not to immediately judge a person by first glance. I've known bikers that are leather-wearing, loudmouthed, and scruffy, yet wouldn't hurt a soul. And I've known ivy-league college graduates with with their hair gel and Dockers and polo shirts that I wouldn't be caught alone with in a room.

Just be aware, and be friendly, but don't necessarily take everyone at face value. And remember that any weapon you carry, whether a gun or pepper spray, can be turned against you. And if you don't think you could actually fire either of them on another person, don't carry them.

[wrongway_08]

Dont second guess yourself/gut feeling. Easy enough.

[Plodderman]

Past few times hiking I have had some pretty difficult people at the camp site. I am careful to not say where I am going or where I am camping at next. I think at times the peole that worry me the most are those who seem to be lieing and want to know to much information.

[Rockhound]

"Reading a post in another thread about someone "hiking" with suitcases on the AT got me thinking about dealing with odd and suspicious people......" That my makes my decision easier. I was trying to decide between a Gregory or a Sampsonite for my next hike.

[daddytwosticks]

I'm going with old-fashioned steamer trunks...two in fact. The empty one I'll use as my shelter. Anybody know how to seam-seal a steamer trunk? :)

[George]

to avoid seeing scary people on the trail is easy for me since there are so few mirrors

[sheepdog]

Having worked in prisons for nearly 30 years, really scary people look pretty much like everyone. Can be big and nasty, or look like an acountant. You never can tell.

[Mongoose2]

BR360; as a retired LEO I can attest that you are correct. When someone is looking to harm you they will size you up (either visually or verbally). Always listen to your instinct, if it does not feel right; it's not.

[gaga]

i will just carry my knife so everybody can see it...that will surely take care of all the bla bla blaing :D LMAO

[Wise Old Owl]

Having worked in prisons for nearly 30 years, really scary people look pretty much like everyone. Can be big and nasty, or look like an acountant. You never can tell.

Ouch, I had no idea this was a small world, I provided rooftop microwave protection repair to prisons for two years,


Ok back to scary folk on the trail. I have met folk on the trail that scare me, I have seen folk on the streets of PHL that would scare anyone. I have been the source of "Gee that guy collapsed at the shelter is scary." I have gone from a teenager to Walter Mathau (Grumpy Old Men) in a heartbeat of my life. I always think of terms of gentle ben, and sometimes get treated otherwise. When it happens, it really hurts and takes a long time to get over it. First impressions are everything, some people can be very harsh and rude without trying.

[Desert Reprobate]

yeah thats the thing, most ppl hope that someone sketchy doesnt come into camp. on the contrary, i wish some person comes in my camp. ive always wondered how easy/fun it would be to incapacitate a harmful person with a nice, long, heavy piece of firewood.
bury them right there, deliverance style, mark the grave with some rocks. haha. hopefully i will never have take the road to cross that bridge, and wish all the peace and serenity to everyone's adventure.
Never mark the spot. And make sure you plant them deep enough that the critters can't get to them.

[buckwheat]

Here's what works for me ... be weirder than they are.

Q: [Them] "Where ya going to?"
A: Headin' north. Huntin's easier there?

Q: [Them] "What do you like about being out here?"
A: The scent of dead animals rotting. I love that in the morning.

Q: [Them] "Where you coming from?"
A. Well, I just buried a guy, and I'm running from the cops. You haven't seen any around here have you?

Q: [Them] "Got any friends coming?"
A. Yeah, my buddy is washing the blood off our shovels. He shoulda been here by now. I wonder where he got to?

Q: [Them] "Planning on staying/camping here tonight?"
A: That depends on whether we can find a new food source. Say ... how much do you weigh?

Q: [Them] "How many nights you out for?"
A: All of 'em, until they catch up to us.

Q: [Them] "Mind if I come with you?"
A: As long as you don't mind bein' a decoy every now and then.

Q: [Them] "What are you, some sort of loner?"
A: Let's just say I like to hunt and leave it at that. [Give him yur best crazy-eye look].

[BR360]

Here's what works for me ... be weirder than they are. ...

All of these are Excellent!!! LMAO & spit cookies with these (Girl Scout thin mints, not to change the subject).

:D:D:D:D:D

[SGT Rock]

Most hikers are already nuts - so trying to figure out which one is the dangerous nut is like trying to guess the flavors in a box of chocolates. Chances are you will never guess right.

Honestly I would worry more about staying dry and warm than I would about which hiker out there is a nut.

[grizzlyadam]

All of these are Excellent!!! LMAO & spit cookies with these (Girl Scout thin mints, not to change the subject).

:D:D:D:D:D

mmmm....thin mints....

[Skyline]

Any one ever talk to the Deposed queen of England? I think here real name is Peggy and she usually hangs around the Fullhardt Knob shelter and surrounding area.


Peggy Childers is delusional, but a super nice person. I haven't seen her in several years, but used to see her at Fullhardt Knob or Cornelius Creek Shelters in Central VA at least a couple times per year.

If you can get past the Bill Bryson-style whoppers, she knows a lot about real life too. And, BTW—she could teach a lot of y'all about yogiing, and living for long stints in the woods. She is the personification of Hiker Trash, tho I'm thinking she doesn't actually hike that much anymore. Um, either do many of the HT I know come to think of it. :D

Anyone seen her in the past year or so? How's she doing? Where might one find her these days if one wanted to visit?

[Hikerhead]

Peggy Childers is delusional, but a super nice person. I haven't seen her in several years, but used to see her at Fullhardt Knob or Cornelius Creek Shelters in Central VA at least a couple times per year.

If you can get past the Bill Bryson-style whoppers, she knows a lot about real life too. And, BTW—she could teach a lot of y'all about yogiing, and living for long stints in the woods. She is the personification of Hiker Trash, tho I'm thinking she doesn't actually hike that much anymore. Um, either do many of the HT I know come to think of it. :D

Anyone seen her in the past year or so? How's she doing? Where might one find her these days if one wanted to visit?

I haven't heard any mention of her around here in the last 3 or 4 years.

[Skyline]

I haven't heard any mention of her around here in the last 3 or 4 years.


I went looking for her at both shelters and in Troutville and Peaks of Otter in 2006. No one knew anything. I hope she's okay.

[superman]

Oops, sorry...I thought this thread was about my family.

[thruhiker1992]

is it illegal to carry a handgun for protection on the hike?

[HikerRanky]

is it illegal to carry a handgun for protection on the hike?

In many areas of the AT, it is illegal to carry a handgun on the trail...

[Wags]

i just tell shady people i'm ex-military during the course of convo, even though i'm not. no offense to military men and women

[4eyedbuzzard]

Here's what works for me ... be weirder than they are.

Q: [Them] "Where ya going to?"
A: Headin' north. Huntin's easier there?

Q: [Them] "What do you like about being out here?"
A: The scent of dead animals rotting. I love that in the morning.

Q: [Them] "Where you coming from?"
A. Well, I just buried a guy, and I'm running from the cops. You haven't seen any around here have you?

Q: [Them] "Got any friends coming?"
A. Yeah, my buddy is washing the blood off our shovels. He shoulda been here by now. I wonder where he got to?

Q: [Them] "Planning on staying/camping here tonight?"
A: That depends on whether we can find a new food source. Say ... how much do you weigh?

Q: [Them] "How many nights you out for?"
A: All of 'em, until they catch up to us.

Q: [Them] "Mind if I come with you?"
A: As long as you don't mind bein' a decoy every now and then.

Q: [Them] "What are you, some sort of loner?"
A: Let's just say I like to hunt and leave it at that. [Give him yur best crazy-eye look].

Or you could just reply with a few of Dr. Lecter's favorite lines:

"A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti."

"I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

[ATAlbatross]

With a few topics relating to sketchy people, I was curious to know if shady encounters are frequent? As a victim of two gun point robberies, I tend to over analyze my gut feelings and sketchy people are really my only main concern. Hitting the trail I actually hope to regain my hope in humanity.

[SGT Rock]

I've only ever had one or two on the AT. Nothing that turned into anything serious.

[YoungMoose]

I would confimr that fact that they are strange. then if they were hiking fast or slowly i would go fast if they were going slow and slow if they were going fast. Also i would act as if im taking a break

[Hooch]

Or you could just reply with a few of Dr. Lecter's favorite lines:

"A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti."

"I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

Or paraphrase Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb, "It hikes up the trail and leaves me the hell alone or it gets the hose again." :banana

[Wise Old Owl]

I know that perps always "interview" their victims to ascertain their vulnerability. They're looking for signs of weakness, and the psychopaths are often damn good at reading body language.

So, I've developed the following scripts to answer when "chatting" with people until I get a better feel for them. I follow my gut, and I consider their general bearing, eye contact, do they "push the boundaries," seem to personal/inquisitive, etc.

Q: [Them] "Where ya going to?"
A: I'm out hiking around these hills. How about you?

Q: [Them] "What do you like about being out here?"
A: All of it. Exercise, nature, the way you can hear all the sounds from far away.

Q: [Them] "Where you coming from?"
A. South [or North/East/West] of here a ways.

Q: [Them] "Got any friends coming?"
A. Yeah, we're spread out along the trail. How about you?

Q: [Them] "Planning on staying/camping here tonight?"
A: Just resting for now. I'll figure it out in a little while. How about you?

Q: [Them] "How many nights you out for?"
A: I take it one day at a time. You?

Q: [Them] "Mind if I come with you?"
A: I don't think that would be a good idea.

Q: [Them] "What are you, some sort of loner?"
A: Let's just say I like my space and leave it at that. [change subject].

I thought this might help some folks about to hit the trail this year, especially newbies who have less epxerience and need more thoughtful preparation.

Any other ideas for handling difficult & touchy situations?

BR360 So that's why you were asking all those questions last week!:D

I can't anything to argue with the above post, I too have run into this.

[Wise Old Owl]

mmmm....thin mints....



I am so glad you didn't say

mmmmm ....Thin ....

[randyg45]

I wish I thought killers came with warning labels, but I don't.
Seems like every factual story I ever read about one included multiple people- neighbors, whoever- talking about how normal he seemed, what a nice man he was. This of course includes Gacy and BTK.
Most goofballs and schizos are harmless. Sociopaths are charming.
Everyone should pack their gaydar and "spidey-sense". I also pack.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I wish I thought killers came with warning labels, but I don't.
Seems like every factual story I ever read about one included multiple people- neighbors, whoever- talking about how normal he seemed, what a nice man he was. This of course includes Gacy and BTK.
Most goofballs and schizos are harmless. Sociopaths are charming.
Everyone should pack their gaydar and "spidey-sense". I also pack.

Yeah, when my "gaydar" goes off the first thing I'm thinkin' is serial killer. I think Barney Frank may be one. Sucker has a great cover. :rolleyes:

[mister krabs]

I think Barney Frank may be one. Sucker has a great cover. :rolleyes:

I see what you did there. :-?:banana

[vamelungeon]

Bad people don't have warning labels. It would be so much easier for us all if they did, we'd know who to avoid and who to lock up and for how long. I've spent almost two decades as a police officer and in the court system, and I know that you can't really tell what a person is capable of with only a brief meeting.

Take Randall Smith, the guy that murdered the two hikers here in Va. in '81. He was released and shot two other guys that lived. They were fishing, Smith came along, they fed him and shot the breeze with him, he ate their trout then said he had to leave, and with no warning pulled a .22 and opened fire. They had no clue about what he was about to do.

I realize that's not helpful to people who are looking for comfort thinking they can spot creeps, but you can't. If someone is out to get you, unless they are incredibly stupid you won't know until they are carrying out their plan. About all you can do is try to be aware of your surroundings at all times, and fight like hell if you need to. Try to not be alone, though two of the murders on the trail were double murders. Or do like I do and try not to worry, because the AT is still a very safe place as far as crime goes. When you are far from roads and towns you are very safe because generally bad guys are lazy bums. They usually look for targets of opportunity.

[saimyoji]

i just tell shady people i'm ex-military during the course of convo, even though i'm not. no offense to military men and women

what do you say when they tell you their military background and ask you about yours? lie some more? they can surely spot that. i knew a guy that would do this to impress people in bars, claimed to have served in iraq. one night a special forces type called his BS and really put him in his place. was a site to watch.

[briarpatch]

Oops, sorry...I thought this thread was about my family.

I have a minister friend who says they don't watch Jerry Springer or Cops in their house because they have relatives that might show up on either show!

[Desert Reprobate]

I had an inmate claim to be a Vietnam Vet. He was ten year younger than me and I got out the last month they paid combat pay for Vietnam. Had to wait at Clark for a flight. POWs were coming home and had first dibs on the seats.

[Frau]

Nessmuk said that while he was working at a regional mental health facility (which is convenient to the AT), Peggy was brought in several times, following her extractions from the shelters.

[SGT Rock]

what do you say when they tell you their military background and ask you about yours? lie some more? they can surely spot that. i knew a guy that would do this to impress people in bars, claimed to have served in iraq. one night a special forces type called his BS and really put him in his place. was a site to watch.
Yep...

[SGT Rock]

Bad people don't have warning labels. It would be so much easier for us all if they did, we'd know who to avoid and who to lock up and for how long. I've spent almost two decades as a police officer and in the court system, and I know that you can't really tell what a person is capable of with only a brief meeting.

Take Randall Smith, the guy that murdered the two hikers here in Va. in '81. He was released and shot two other guys that lived. They were fishing, Smith came along, they fed him and shot the breeze with him, he ate their trout then said he had to leave, and with no warning pulled a .22 and opened fire. They had no clue about what he was about to do.

I realize that's not helpful to people who are looking for comfort thinking they can spot creeps, but you can't. If someone is out to get you, unless they are incredibly stupid you won't know until they are carrying out their plan. About all you can do is try to be aware of your surroundings at all times, and fight like hell if you need to. Try to not be alone, though two of the murders on the trail were double murders. Or do like I do and try not to worry, because the AT is still a very safe place as far as crime goes. When you are far from roads and towns you are very safe because generally bad guys are lazy bums. They usually look for targets of opportunity.
Exactly. Everyone said Ted Bundy was a really nice fellow.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Bad people don't have warning labels
You rarely see the "label" until it's too late to completely avoid them.


generally bad guys are lazy bums. They usually look for targets of opportunity.
Yep. But unfortunately, some bad guys are crafty enough to know that most hikers are away from home, unarmed, in an unfamiliar place, likely don't have a phone and/or reception, that there isn't a police presence nearby, etc. Perfect target of opportunity. That said, most of 'em won't hike uphill any distance to commit a crime. Like you said--lazy.

[sheepdog]

Josey Wales (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000142/): Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.

[Dogwood]

If you are seeking to avoid odd/suspicious people - don't hike. We're all a bit crazy or a bit sane - depends on how you look at it. Stay at home. Settle down into the Laz-y-boy and let the airwaves of the TV or the internet wash over you causing you to become comfortably numb/brainwashed. Now, order some Dominos or the latest McDonalds marketing gimmick, at home delivery on orders of $20 or more(only kidding about the McDonalds, I know the prospect of McDonalds home delivery had some of you all gaga). Next, determine if the little yellow, purple, or red pill is the one you will ask your doctor about prescribing for you. No need to venture off into those frightening woods!

[Maddog]

i like to carry my suitcases in a wheelbarrow when i hike! :/

[Blue Jay]

Having worked in prisons for nearly 30 years, really scary people look pretty much like everyone. Can be big and nasty, or look like an acountant. You never can tell.

You certainly have that right.

[Blue Jay]

Yep. But unfortunately, some bad guys are crafty enough to know that most hikers are away from home, unarmed, in an unfamiliar place, likely don't have a phone and/or reception, that there isn't a police presence nearby, etc. Perfect target of opportunity. That said, most of 'em won't hike uphill any distance to commit a crime. Like you said--lazy.

They also know most hikers are in reasonable good physical health, often have a "fight back" mentality, and most important that there are far better and profitable victims in cities. I also must disagree about your belief they think we are unarmed or have phones.

[Homer&Marje]

Just call in everyone you see on the trail to the police and tell them that it's another crazy homeless man.:D

End up being me or Tipi Walter....

And most true sociopaths will be much more inclined to come up with a plan to "attack" you, vs. doing it in the spur of the moment.

And most sociopaths are white males in between the ages of 30-40 like Bundy, Kazcinsky, Manson, Mcveigh, and so many more staples of our society:D:D

[sheepdog]

And most sociopaths are white males in between the ages of 30-40 like Bundy, Kazcinsky, Manson, Mcveigh, and so many more staples of our society:D:D
Painting with a pretty broad brush there. Lots of sociopaths of every race, age, color and sex. If you think a 16 year old gangster that will shoot you over a $20 drug deal is not a sociopath you need to think again.

[Homer&Marje]

Painting with a pretty broad brush there. Lots of sociopaths of every race, age, color and sex. If you think a 16 year old gangster that will shoot you over a $20 drug deal is not a sociopath you need to think again.


Your painting with a broad brush if you think that kid is a sociopath versus a product of an ill environment with a lack of education and generations now worth of mistakes.

Normally a sociopath is someone that has grown up in a moderately well raised environment and a controverted view of society is manifested usually by a traumatic event in that persons life.

[warraghiyagey]

Your painting with a broad brush if you think that kid is a sociopath versus a product of an ill environment with a lack of education and generations now worth of mistakes.

Normally a sociopath is someone that has grown up in a moderately well raised environment and a controverted view of society is manifested usually by a traumatic event in that persons life.

Sociopathy is not relegated to any subset of society. It is a condition of one's mind regardless of a single traumatic event or a life of repeated trauma. There is no 'normally' in the realm that sociopathy manifests itself.

[SGT Rock]

Sociopath is a loosely defined thing. It can include antisocial personality behavior and dissocial personality disorder.

These are not limited to white guys raised in middle class environment that suffered a traumatic event. That is a movie construction used to explain why the murderer is doing things in a simple way for audiences to understand. Real sociopaths are more complicated.

[Wags]

what do you say when they tell you their military background and ask you about yours? lie some more? they can surely spot that. i knew a guy that would do this to impress people in bars, claimed to have served in iraq. one night a special forces type called his BS and really put him in his place. was a site to watch.

i'm just telling you what i do if i bump into people i think may have bad intentions for me - i did not claim to sit around the campfire pretending to be some sort of war hero. i'm certainly not interested in impressing anyone, b/c i'm beyond that stage of my life. it's a safety thing, plain and simple. i believe 99% of criminals will often choose the easiest target - a method of their survival (much like a predator choosing to attack a young, sick, or old prey instead of a big strong healthy one), and if they have the choice b/t me, a quiet "ex-military" guy and some putz who announces he works on computers and only gets to exersize once a month by hiking, well, the choice is pretty clear to me

much like the 1st date with a chick, i keep it light an polite. is there a right way to lie?

[sheepdog]

Your painting with a broad brush if you think that kid is a sociopath versus a product of an ill environment with a lack of education and generations now worth of mistakes.

Normally a sociopath is someone that has grown up in a moderately well raised environment and a controverted view of society is manifested usually by a traumatic event in that persons life.
Worked in prisons for nearly 30 years. There are a lot of young ethnic sociopaths. A lot more sociopaths in general.

[bulldog49]

Your painting with a broad brush if you think that kid is a sociopath versus a product of an ill environment with a lack of education and generations now worth of mistakes.

Normally a sociopath is someone that has grown up in a moderately well raised environment and a controverted view of society is manifested usually by a traumatic event in that persons life.

That post proves your listed location of alternate reality is accurate. The definition of sociopath has nothing to do with one's envirionment. It is defined by one's behavior.

[Homer&Marje]

That post proves your listed location of alternate reality is accurate. The definition of sociopath has nothing to do with one's envirionment. It is defined by one's behavior.

Cause and effect scenario. Again. Everyone here is painting with a broad brush....for exactly the stated reason's given


Worked in prisons for nearly 30 years. There are a lot of young ethnic sociopaths. A lot more sociopaths in general.

Many more people are sociopaths than we think

When did I say the aforementioned "gangbanger" was ethnic?:-?


Sociopath is a loosely defined thing. It can include antisocial personality behavior and dissocial personality disorder.

These are not limited to white guys raised in middle class environment that suffered a traumatic event. That is a movie construction used to explain why the murderer is doing things in a simple way for audiences to understand. Real sociopaths are more complicated.

Sociopath is very hard to define, and generalize.

[ed bell]

Sociopath is very hard to define, and generalize.Defining it isn't hard at all:


DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

[SGT Rock]

i'm just telling you what i do if i bump into people i think may have bad intentions for me - i did not claim to sit around the campfire pretending to be some sort of war hero. i'm certainly not interested in impressing anyone, b/c i'm beyond that stage of my life. it's a safety thing, plain and simple. i believe 99% of criminals will often choose the easiest target - a method of their survival (much like a predator choosing to attack a young, sick, or old prey instead of a big strong healthy one), and if they have the choice b/t me, a quiet "ex-military" guy and some putz who announces he works on computers and only gets to exersize once a month by hiking, well, the choice is pretty clear to me

much like the 1st date with a chick, i keep it light an polite. is there a right way to lie?

But you also run the chance the weird guy was also former military and will smell out your lie and make you an even easier mark.

Best to be a mystery than to make yourself a fool.

[superman]

(much like a predator choosing to attack a young, sick, or old prey instead of a big strong healthy one),

Hey, are you calling me an "old prey?":)

[Petr]

Defining it isn't hard at all:


DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Ed beat me to the DSM-IV but if I could highlight the 'societal rules' part. Even in gang culture where violence is an accepted part of life, there are certain understandings about what is an appropriate response to a particular type of affront. Off the top of my head, think about the movie Goodfellas. Everyone in the movie was a violent crook, but Joe Pesci's character couldn't abide by the rules of the game and got killed because of it. Incidentally, the vast majority of truly antisocial people are only successfully "treated" via incarceration or death. The anti-psychotic medications which can be useful for helping people with schizophrenia don't help at all here.

Finally, personality disorders are interesting because they aren't treated on the same plane as psychiatric illness. These are basically people who feel that there is nothing wrong with them or their personality but who just don't fit well into society. They're very fun to read about since most everyone identifies with the descriptions of the traits of the different disorders, and then you start worrying maybe you're a little bit crazy. I think the official list is schizoid, schizotypal (both have some of the negative symptoms of schizophrenia but no voices), paranoid, borderline, antisocial, histrionic, narcissistic, dependant, avoidant, and obsessive compulsive personality disorder (OCPD does not equal OCD). Well I am skeptical about a lot of psychiatry, I think these are worth reading about. You think back to that odd guy in high school and you finally have some framework to think about his oddness.

[sheepdog]

And most sociopaths are white males in between the ages of 30-40 like Bundy, Kazcinsky, Manson, Mcveigh, and so many more staples of our society:D:D


Painting with a pretty broad brush there. Lots of sociopaths of every race, age, color and sex. If you think a 16 year old gangster that will shoot you over a $20 drug deal is not a sociopath you need to think again.


Worked in prisons for nearly 30 years. There are a lot of young ethnic sociopaths. A lot more sociopaths in general.

[quote=Homer&Marje;812059]
When did I say the aforementioned "gangbanger" was ethnic?:-?

quote]

You said sociopaths were generally white guys between 30-40. I said sociopaths are all ages, races. etc...

[BlazeWalker]

Good advice from Rock.

[SGT Rock]

I've been thinking about wags tactic of talking about non-existent military service. I ran into a guy at a bank I was working just like this last week - about 1 minute into him telling me about his service I realized he was lying. I've met a few people on the trail that do this. Usually when I, or another vet realize they are full of ****, we don't confront them. But we do tell everyone else we meet to watch out for the liar on the trail. Often even the other civilians with no military service spot these guys after their stories start making no sense. Wags may think he is fooling people, but my experience tells me most likely he is only signaling to people he cannot be trusted.

Also something else for everyone else. Some of the recent guys that have been trouble on the trail lie about having military service. So if you hear me or some other vet tell you that HikerXYZ lies about his military service, that is also an indication you need to watch out for him being "that guy". Someone that lies about military service may lie about many other things - including the fact that he is harmless. As I recall Gary Hilton lied about service to the cops. The guy in Virgina's nickname was lying Randal. Saved was know to claim miltary service. There was an old guy a few years back stealing on the trail that told war stories he had picked up from other people as his own and even claimed his son was killed in Iraq.

Following the topic of what to do eith odd characters on the trail - take this advice, watch out for people that lie about their service.

[ed bell]

Following the topic of what to do with odd characters on the trail - take this advice, watch out for people that lie about their service.It seems as though that may be a quick way to gain someone's confidence. I'm wary of anyone who divulges too much personal information quickly without being asked.

[vamelungeon]

http://more4news.typepad.com/more4_news/2006/03/on_the_trail_of.html
http://www.specialforces.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1438
http://www.vfwwebcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=799.msg10289

I did my four in the Air Force as a linguist and in a comm center. BTW. Roughing it in the Air Force is when the air conditioning goes on the blink and you run out of olives for the drinks... :-)

[dudeijuststarted]

if you're really worried, train in a bjj or mma school for a month. whether you stick to it or not, chances are your aggressor will not know how to handle what you throw at him!!!!

[SGT Rock]

Thanks for the links Vamelungeon.

Another point that I thought of too with vamelungeon's post and some of the stuff I have also seen. There is a group of folks that may have also served in the military but are what are known as wannabes. They typically claim to have been a sniper, SEAL, PJ, Green Beret, Ranger, or some other cool sounding snake eating job in the military. You also gotta watch out for these guys. Some of these guys got kicked out of the military for various reasons, but they want to be bad asses when they were really were not. These guys can also be dangerous in my experience.

[saimyoji]

Thanks for the links Vamelungeon.

Another point that I thought of too with vamelungeon's post and some of the stuff I have also seen. There is a group of folks that may have also served in the military but are what are known as wannabes. They typically claim to have been a sniper, SEAL, PJ, Green Beret, Ranger, or some other cool sounding snake eating job in the military. You also gotta watch out for these guys. Some of these guys got kicked out of the military for various reasons, but they want to be bad asses when they were really were not. These guys can also be dangerous in my experience.

funny...thats the story on the guy i mentioned earlier. he was a humvee mechanic, spent all his time training in the backwoods of PA, never saw combat. he sent an email all around sayin' in 6 months he'd be in iraq, hoped to see everyone again, please pray for me......never left. never left the state. he'd talk about shooting various weapons, sitting as a gunner, firing rockets, etc. total BS. couldn't hold his liquor either.

[Tin Man]

i just tell shady people i'm ex-military during the course of convo, even though i'm not. no offense to military men and women

1) that is really dumb

2) i'm guessing it IS offensive to military folks, especially the 'shady people' military folks you may be unwittingly telling just how dumb you are

3) try using your head and either avoid the conversation all together, but if you must converse talk about the group just ahead or behind that you are meeting up with shortly and clear out. don't hang around making stuff up. your lies will catch get you in more trouble than walking away

[SGT Rock]

funny...thats the story on the guy i mentioned earlier. he was a humvee mechanic, spent all his time training in the backwoods of PA, never saw combat. he sent an email all around sayin' in 6 months he'd be in iraq, hoped to see everyone again, please pray for me......never left. never left the state. he'd talk about shooting various weapons, sitting as a gunner, firing rockets, etc. total BS. couldn't hold his liquor either.
That guy at the bank was an ammunition specialist. Tried to make himself out to be EOD, and then claimed after he got out of AIT he was so damn good his CSM from school personally sent him to Sniper School where he outperformed all the instructors. He was then went to Oak Ridge to teach the guards there how to shoot sniper weapons. Then he went on to be the Generals bodyguard at the 25th in Hawaii and did lots of secret missions. But somehow with being all that, he did let slip that they kicked him out for punching a guy while on ammo detail at an NTC rotation. My guess is he may have actually hit someone while on detail and he probably really was kicked out. Everything between going to Ammo school and getting kicked out was BS.

[saimyoji]

if you're really worried, train in a bjj or mma school for a month. whether you stick to it or not, chances are your aggressor will not know how to handle what you throw at him!!!!

yep. don't lie about having skills...go out and get some.

[SGT Rock]

Don't lie about having a gun either.

[Hooch]

That guy at the bank was an ammunition specialist. Tried to make himself out to be EOD, and then claimed after he got out of AIT he was so damn good his CSM from school personally sent him to Sniper School where he outperformed all the instructors. He was then went to Oak Ridge to teach the guards there how to shoot sniper weapons. Then he went on to be the Generals bodyguard at the 25th in Hawaii and did lots of secret missions. But somehow with being all that, he did let slip that they kicked him out for punching a guy while on ammo detail at an NTC rotation. My guess is he may have actually hit someone while on detail and he probably really was kicked out. Everything between going to Ammo school and getting kicked out was BS.It's usually the stories of "secret missions", things that they "just can't talk about" and other oddities that give these ****ers away. For those of us who have served proudly, regardless of our rank, branch of service, MOS or billet, wannabe's make me sick.

[SGT Rock]

Give me an honest linguist or RTO any day over a wannabe ammo handler.

[Hooch]

Give me an honest linguist or RTO any day over a wannabe ammo handler.Funny you say that. In my long ago days of active duty, my primary MOS was 2531, Field Radio Operator. :D

[Hooch]

Funny you say that. In my long ago days of active duty, my primary MOS was 2531, Field Radio Operator. :DAnd damn proud of it.

[SGT Rock]

You should be. Vets who did what they did, and did it with honor should be proud of what they have done. Americans need people that hold rifles on foreigners, or translate our intentions to the friendlies, or hold a radio hand-mike controlling the release of bombs on what may be innocent people to act with integrity and honor at all times. The opposite is unacceptable.

[Tin Man]

And damn proud of it.

as you should be

i wanted to serve myself, but my ex-military father talked me out of it

[Hooch]

You should be. Vets who did what they did, and did it with honor should be proud of what they have done. Americans need people that........act with integrity and honor at all times. The opposite is unacceptable.Like lying about service, regardless of motivation or intentions.

[saimyoji]

Funny you say that. In my long ago days of active duty, my primary MOS was 2531, Field Radio Operator. :D


damn, thats some dangerous ****. those dudes always get blown away in the movies. one second their calling in a fire mission, the next their arms are blown off, they just haven't realized it yet and are still talking on the hand set. then their head rolls off their shoulders.

hooch, you the man. :cool:

[Hooch]

hooch, you the man. :cool:Hasn't this already been previously established on another thread? :D:rolleyes:

[superman]

You should be. Vets who did what they did, and did it with honor should be proud of what they have done. Americans need people that hold rifles on foreigners, or translate our intentions to the friendlies, or hold a radio hand-mike controlling the release of bombs on what may be innocent people to act with integrity and honor at all times. The opposite is unacceptable.

There's another page to the story. Some years ago, there was a guy who checked into the whacky ward at the WRJ, VA. He claimed to have been a POW and had only recently escaped. He had a good story...so good that when he talked about knowing a guy from Vermont who was a real POW they brought a relative of the POW to meet the guy. The alleged POW couldn't be tripped up. Then they got the guy’s real service records. He had never been a POW or been to Vietnam. So they tossed his butt out of the door. A couple days later, he showed up at the Vet Center wearing an electrician’s tool belt. They looked at his record and he'd never been an electrician either but they noticed that he'd been a tin knocker at one point. So they told him that. A couple days later, he showed up back at the Vet Center. This time he had the right tools to be a tin knocker so they made some calls and got him a job as a tin knocker. That was the last time he was seen or heard of. It seems he was having some sort of identity crises. What he was looking for was his identity. In this case, he was just reaching out for an identity and help. Trying to be an ex-POW was incidental to his issues. Once they put his wheels on the right track he was off and running. There are all kinds of nut bags walking around…many of them have nothing to do with military service…in spite of any claims they make.

[Wags]

it's amazing i'm still alive!!! whew thank god you guys told me what i should be doing instead of what i've been doing! yeah!

i didn't recommend anyone else do what i do, nor did i ask anyone's advise about what i said. i mearly stated what i do if i'm somewhere on the trail and my spidey senses start tingling. this rarely ever happens. part of me doesn't feel the need to explain myself to a bunch of online people, some of who don't even hike, they just type about it. i feel confident in my ability to deal w/ whatever situation may arise.

for the 2nd time in this thread i write:
"i don't sit around the campfire telling people i'm a war hero. i don't brag or go into any details. i'm just not hesitant to mention "well when i got out of the army i ..." if i'm sitting in a shelter w/ some crazy and it's getting dark."

the whole "learn how to really defend yourself" statement is kind of lame to say online. everyone can be tough on the internet

[SGT Rock]

Got it. You are still going to do it even though we have explained why it is a bad idea.

[Wags]

i think people here recommend plenty of bad ideas rock. hyoh right?

i just don't want people taking what i said out of context. i'm not wanting to be known as "that guy who lies about being in the military". i've only had to do that maybe 2 times in my life on the trail. i don't regret doing it.

[Bilge Rat]

boobs..........

[4eyedbuzzard]

The military liars can be pretty amusing, but in my experience they're usually harmless. Most are just socially inept and looking for a some social standing, awe in the eyes of their peers, etc. We had a guy at work who was always telling "special forces" stories--working for "the company"--"in country". [Oookay:rolleyes:] Problem was he was at least two years younger than I was and I missed Vietnam by a year. FWIW, I never served--like another poster here, an uncle who was career USMC talked me out of enlisting after high school. To those who served, I offer my thank-you.

Regarding "psychos", "sociopaths", etc, IMO, the pathology isn't so much an absolute, as it is a matter of degree. We all display some antisocial behaviors, we all have some degree of nacissism, we all have some fantasies and delusions, we all tell some lies, we all have some self-destructive behaviors, we all get depressed, deny things, etc. But our fantasies and delusions are generally less asocial or pathological, and we don't act out our fantasies or allow our behavior to cross the lines of what is socially acceptable, as we have empathy/emotion that causes us to consider the effect of our actions on others, aka respect. Some 2% to 4% of the population is thought to have fairly severe issues with having very low or no emotional/empathetic response--but the great majority simply adapt and lead normal, respectful lives. They just don't feel the level of emotions we do. Most learn to fake it to some degree to fit in.

It's pretty easy to spot a wacko who actually publicly behaves abnormally, such as compulsive lying, fantasizing, physical abuse, delusional, etc. But the whole thing with many of the hidden "emotional/empathetic devoids", the "sociopaths" who manage to keep their pathology secret, the ones who appear normal and don't set off instant alarms, like Gacy, Bundy, and others like them, is that they've lived their entire lives fooling society--and they're damned good at it. Their outward public behavior is very normal, just like a person who actually has "normal" emotions, and they're just trying to get through their day like anybody else. You know, like on a typical Saturday--they take out the garbage, go grocery shopping, make lunch, [secretly abduct, torture, and brutally murder the girl who was buying cantaloupe at the grocery store], go to the gym, cook dinner, watch Dexter on Showtime. Different day, same bull****.

To you and I it is horrific, immoral, emotionally disturbing. To them it is recreation, a little excitment, maybe even some sexual fulfillment, woven into the routine of their lives.

And as much as we'd like to think we might spot them, the reality is that we probably won't. We won't spot it at our home, or workplace, or on the trail. We could live next door and work with one for decades and never, ever, suspect it. They only get caught when they make mistakes, and they're usually a lot better at deceiving us than we are at spotting them.

There are some really scary people out there.

[vamelungeon]

Interviews with neighbors after wacko commits heinous crimes:
"He was such a nice guy, great neighbor. I can't believe he would do something like that."

[Hooch]

i think people here recommend plenty of bad ideas rock. hyoh right?

i just don't want people taking what i said out of context. i'm not wanting to be known as "that guy who lies about being in the military". i've only had to do that maybe 2 times in my life on the trail. i don't regret doing it. I think you're missing our point here. Nothing is being taken out of context. Regardless of motivation or purpose, lying about military service is lying about military service, and that's exactly what you've done. If you came across a person on the trail that made you uneasy, you could always tell them you're a black belt, former LEO or some other tough guy crap like that. But lying about military service is just bad judgement. Of course, having never served, you'll probably never understand that or how offensive it is to those of us who have.

[zoidfu]

Drama queens.

[zoidfu]

So, the guy told a couple of lies when he felt like he had to make himself a harder target. It may very well have worked and that's what's known as a "good thing."

It's not like he's a jerk down at the bar telling sniper stories so he can get laid.

[Hooch]

Drama queens.Yo' momma's a drama queen.


So, the guy told a couple of lies when he felt like he had to make himself a harder target. It may very well have worked and that's what's known as a "good thing."

It's not like he's a jerk down at the bar telling sniper stories so he can get laid.Then that makes you as much of a ****bag as he is for condoning it. Obviously you've never served, either.

[zoidfu]

Yo' momma's a drama queen.

Then that makes you as much of a ****bag as he is for condoning it. Obviously you've never served, either.

I was a 13F in the Army. I'm just not nearly as sensitive as you. I also don't use my service as something to look down on others like, say, LEOs.

The guy felt threatened. I would lie my ass off too if I felt like I could get out of being attacked.

If you want, you can PM me and I'll send you a box of tissues.

[Hooch]

I was a 13F in the Army. I'm just not nearly as sensitive as you. I also don't use my service as something to look down on others like, say, LEOs.

The guy felt threatened. I would lie my ass off too if I felt like I could get out of being attacked.

If you want, you can PM me and I'll send you a box of tissues.No tissues necessary and my opinion of wags action is unchanged. This has nothing to do with sensitivity, but doing the right thing. Like I said previously, if the dude wanted to lie and make himself sound like Billy Badass and make himself a more difficult target, he could have said he was a black belt, LEO or something else instead of lying about service in the military.

[zoidfu]

No tissues necessary and my opinion of wags action is unchanged. This has nothing to do with sensitivity, but doing the right thing. Like I said previously, if the dude wanted to lie and make himself sound like Billy Badass and make himself a more difficult target, he could have said he was a black belt, LEO or something else instead of lying about service in the military.

Doing the right thing is getting yourself out of a tight spot.

What the hell is the difference about what he says? Oh, that's right, YOU get offended about it(double standard about the LEO much?).

Let's establish one thing here- Wags felt threatened or uneasy about some people on 2 occasions

So let me get this straight, you're going to get offended at him lying about being in the military because he felt like he had to make himself a harder target? Seriously? I don't get it. You know, you could look at it as a compliment...

[Heater]

Yeah, when my "gaydar" goes off the first thing I'm thinkin' is serial killer. I think Barney Frank may be one. Sucker has a great cover. :rolleyes:

You have "gaydar"? :o :eek:

[Heater]

Worked in prisons for nearly 30 years. There are a lot of young ethnic sociopaths. A lot more sociopaths in general.


You distinguished between "Ethnic sociopaths" and just plain "sociopaths"?

Please explain.

[Tin Man]

i met a vietnam vet (not on trail) who threatened me just because he thought i looked at him funny (insert wiseass comment here). i'm pretty sure he would have ripped my arm off if i made the mistake of saying i was ex-military (before i knew he was a vet, two arms after)

[zoidfu]

i met a vietnam vet (not on trail) who threatened me just because he thought i looked at him funny (insert wiseass comment here). i'm pretty sure he would have ripped my arm off if i made the mistake of saying i was ex-military (before i knew he was a vet, two arms after)

He sounds like an *******

[Homer&Marje]

I usually just sharpen my buck knife on my stone. Passes the time and brings a lot of curious looks. Then people start telling me about their military service:D:-?

[SGT Rock]

Its more like this

(Hey guys. Watch out for that guy wags. He claims he was in the Marines, but he is full of ****. You cannot trust him)

[zoidfu]

Its more like this

(Hey guys. Watch out for that guy wags. He claims he was in the Marines, but he is full of ****. You cannot trust him)

I'm just saying that he used it in a defense situation. He wasn't bragging about it down at the bar. We wouldn't have even known it if he didn't volunteer it. I don't see what the problem is.

[zoidfu]

I usually just sharpen my buck knife on my stone. Passes the time and brings a lot of curious looks. Then people start telling me about their military service:D:-?

I usually just starting fine tuning my gaydar in front of them. People tend to back off when they know you're carrying.

[rickb]

I usually just starting fine tuning my gaydar in front of them. People tend to back off when they know you're carrying.

Did I miss something?

There have been a couple of high profile cases of gay couples being attacked along the AT. Do you turn on your gaydar so that you can look out for gay hikers' safety?

[zoidfu]

Did I miss something?

There have been a couple of high profile cases of gay couples being attacked on the AT. Do you turn on your gaydar so that you can look out for their safety?

Yes you did. Back on page 3 someone recommended bringing their gaydar. I was making fun of him.

[rickb]

Yes you did. Back on page 3 someone recommended bringing their gaydar. I was making fun of him.

OK. I read that too a while back. Seemed odd then, and I was wondering why it was still being discussed.

Now I know!

[SGT Rock]

I'm just saying that he used it in a defense situation. He wasn't bragging about it down at the bar. We wouldn't have even known it if he didn't volunteer it. I don't see what the problem is.
That is his claim now.

Think about this - Trust the guy, he wouldn't lie to you about when he telles the lies he tells? And he would lie about the lies he tells.

Sounds like odd logic.

Think about this - if you are trying to spot "that guy", then finding out someone is telling lies about miltary service is probably an indicator. As stated, Hilton lied about military service and was a killer, LR supposedly told lies about service and he killed two people and tried on two others. The guy hiking through in 2006 or 2007 that was stealing gear and food bags and ripped off Standing Bear lied about military service.

Seems these "that guy" people found claiming non-existent miltary service was useful to them too. They probably had a good justification for it as well. I'm sure it helped them to feel secure making the other person feel they had skills they didn't.

So what I am saying is if I know someone is lying about military service - that immediatly puts them in "that guy" catagory. And if I think someone could be "that guy" I make sure I tell everyone around "that guy" so they know not to trust them.

If you want to avoid possibly being thought of as "that guy", don't claim you were a Soldier when you were not. It is pretty simple.

My other advice was best leave yourself a mystery than open your mouth and be a fool. The person you are trying to con into thinking you were in the miltary may have been in the military themself. As soon as someone tells me they were in on the trail, I start asking questions. In one or two questions you can usually spot the fake. If you haven't been in, you are probably getting spotted without knowing it. I wouldn't go there if I were you.

[Tin Man]

exactly

[zoidfu]

That is his claim now.

Think about this - Trust the guy, he wouldn't lie to you about when he telles the lies he tells? And he would lie about the lies he tells.

Sounds like odd logic.

Think about this - if you are trying to spot "that guy", then finding out someone is telling lies about miltary service is probably an indicator. As stated, Hilton lied about military service and was a killer, LR supposedly told lies about service and he killed two people and tried on two others. The guy hiking through in 2006 or 2007 that was stealing gear and food bags and ripped off Standing Bear lied about military service.

Seems these "that guy" people found claiming non-existent miltary service was useful to them too. They probably had a good justification for it as well. I'm sure it helped them to feel secure making the other person feel they had skills they didn't.

So what I am saying is if I know someone is lying about military service - that immediatly puts them in "that guy" catagory. And if I think someone could be "that guy" I make sure I tell everyone around "that guy" so they know not to trust them.

If you want to avoid possibly being thought of as "that guy", don't claim you were a Soldier when you were not. It is pretty simple.

My other advice was best leave yourself a mystery than open your mouth and be a fool. The person you are trying to con into thinking you were in the miltary may have been in the military themself. As soon as someone tells me they were in on the trail, I start asking questions. In one or two questions you can usually spot the fake. If you haven't been in, you are probably getting spotted without knowing it. I wouldn't go there if I were you.

Yeah, he must lie about everything then, right?

See, "that guy" is the one that does it over and over. Using it in a situation where you feel threatened doesn't bother me. He's still here to post so maybe it worked, who knows?

Has Wags ever made this claim before? Does anyone here personally know Wags?

Sure, it could backfire but then again, someone could take your pistol from you too.

I'm not recommending it at all, I'm just not getting all sensitive about it. The U.S. military marches on.

[zoidfu]

Let me put it this way, I give as much of a **** about that as I do anti-military protesters... that is to say, none. The U.S. military marches on all the same.

[vamelungeon]

I was in the Air Force and NOBODY ever claims they were in the Air Force if they weren't! LOL Well, they might claim to be a fighter pilot... :-)

My son, on the other hand, was in the Marines and they get PO'd about people claiming to be Marines when they aren't. It might be very unhealthy to try it.

Some people get mad about it, some don't.

[Photofanatic]

For some reason most people don't want to hang out with a diseased person. A little research will arm anyone with a description of a little known disease that could be highly contagious and keep a potential attacker from any desire of coming too close. It works very well especially if one wants to hike alone. Few people wanna talk too long with a depressed person trying to come to terms with their disease. I never needed to use this ploy but am armed with a few medical terms that will raise eyebrows and cause most to reconsider approach. For example being at a stage of remission with Hansen's Disease aka Leprosy.

[DAJA]

I am ex-military and ex-LEO...

Why would you be less of a target to announce that to strangers? Sure you may have more training than most people, but if someone has a plan to harm you, they still have the entire advantage, training or not...

And really, you folks are being way too tuff on Wags... I guess because I walked away from that environment willingly, I don't carry the same passion as some of you folks.. In my mind both where bull**** jobs like nearly every other job... Your simply a tool to carry out someone elses agenda for thier (and thier friends) benifit...

But hey, if beating that war drum keeps you folks happy, beat away...

[Photofanatic]

Before my suggestion becomes ugly please know that I don't intend to insult anyone here especially anyone struggleing with a life altering disease such as leprosy.

[SGT Rock]

Thumb typing from my phone so pardon any mistakes.

I think some of you guys are reading me wrong. I'm not offended by wags. Some folks may be. I'm trying to do two things. Point out why his method is bad and would be a bad idea. And to point out that someone that does this is an indicator of who you should be on guard against.

If you lie about using a JetBoil but never have it is becaue you may not want to look like an inexperienced fool. But it appears lying about military service is done for a very specific intimidation advantage.

As for LEO. I've not been one . But if I found out someone is lying about that I'd do the same thing I do when I catch someone lying about the military.

Photofanatic's advice is probably a better idea .

[4eyedbuzzard]

I wish I thought killers came with warning labels, but I don't.
Seems like every factual story I ever read about one included multiple people- neighbors, whoever- talking about how normal he seemed, what a nice man he was. This of course includes Gacy and BTK.
Most goofballs and schizos are harmless. Sociopaths are charming.
Everyone should pack their gaydar and "spidey-sense". I also pack.

Yeah, when my "gaydar" goes off the first thing I'm thinkin' is serial killer. I think Barney Frank may be one. Sucker has a great cover. :rolleyes:

You have "gaydar"? :o :eek:

Only for true flamers. Gotta watch out though, they could be bi, metro, or straight fems, like those girlie men. I suspect bodybuilders too. They look at themselves in mirrors a lot. But, like I said, I don't jump to conclusions. I wouldn't want to misread something that wasn't there and label someone incorrectly.





[Does this really need a sarcasm smiley?:rolleyes:]

[superman]

In those, wicked so many, situations when I feel threatened by the scary folks I run to a tree and act like a nut.:D

[4eyedbuzzard]

Worked in prisons for nearly 30 years. There are a lot of young ethnic sociopaths. A lot more sociopaths in general.

You distinguished between "Ethnic sociopaths" and just plain "sociopaths"?

Please explain.

Being that there is a stereotype that most sociopaths are white males, I'd be betting he used "ethnic" so as not to have to have to make a list of ethnicities other than "Caucasian, not of Hispanic decent", like Black, Hispanic, and Asian.

OOPS! See how easy it is to leave out a group of deserving sociopaths from different ethnic groups. I completely forgot Pacific Islanders.

[4eyedbuzzard]

In those, wicked so many, situations when I feel threatened by the scary folks I run to a tree and act like a nut.:D

You'll likely be killed one day by some squirrely sociopath.:banana

[LoyalNocturnal]

Well I go hiking alone or with my dog. Usually during twilight hours at that, and throughout the night. I've never been worried of anyone being crazy, at least not more than I.

[vamelungeon]

For some reason most people don't want to hang out with a diseased person. A little research will arm anyone with a description of a little known disease that could be highly contagious and keep a potential attacker from any desire of coming too close. It works very well especially if one wants to hike alone. Few people wanna talk too long with a depressed person trying to come to terms with their disease. I never needed to use this ploy but am armed with a few medical terms that will raise eyebrows and cause most to reconsider approach. For example being at a stage of remission with Hansen's Disease aka Leprosy.

During WWII, women in some occupied countries pretended to have tuberculosis to keep the German soldiers at bay. They would actually put some blood into a handkerchief, then when a soldier would hit on them cough into the hanky and let him glimpse the blood.

[vamelungeon]

Well I go hiking alone or with my dog. Usually during twilight hours at that, and throughout the night. I've never been worried of anyone being crazy, at least not more than I.

I believe that's the right attitude. Don't worry.

[sheepdog]

Being that there is a stereotype that most sociopaths are white males, I'd be betting he used "ethnic" so as not to have to have to make a list of ethnicities other than "Caucasian, not of Hispanic decent", like Black, Hispanic, and Asian.

OOPS! See how easy it is to leave out a group of deserving sociopaths from different ethnic groups. I completely forgot Pacific Islanders.
Thank you. If he were to go back and read my posts he would know.

[Wags]

if i secretly went to bars and told stories of being a vet to get laid or impress my buddies (of quite a few who are vets) do you really think i'd be foolish enough to "tell my lie" here? if i was some trail liar would i really volunteer that information here?

again, for the 3rd time on this thread:
i felt threatened, and used my best judgement to defuse the threat. at that time it seemed appropriate to drop a line about being ex-military. i would do it again

so some other guy said "omg don't lie about being in the military, lie about being a blackbelt or MMA guy". so basically you're saying it's ok to offend other people's careers and hobbies, but not yours... illogical and selfish

zoidfu seems to be the only one here understanding why i did what i did. i could say that i bet more people are killed in the US by carrying a firearm than about lying about military service. i could say people who vohemetly are against treating water, and throw that information onto others time and time again cause more issues on the trail than my 2 short stories told to some hobo did.

whatever though really. i'm comfortable enough in my own skin to not need the acceptance of my actions from some people on the internet.

this doesn't surprise me though. herd-mentality at its finest

[Tin Man]

people were just offering some advice... they have moved on, how about you? :D

[Wags]

there were 15 posts since my last post. apparently they haven't. and i never asked for advice, they were attacking my character. plain and simple :D

[Cannibal]

I met a shaky character on the Trail last year pretty early on. He 'claimed' to be an "ex" (first flag) close-combat instructor in the Corp until he was discharged for mental reasons. I chose not to hike with that guy and made it a point to know where he was bedding down for the night so that I could be a comfortable distance down the Trail from him.

I have no idea if he was lying or not. After watching him for 10 minutes and hearing his story, I figured he was just as dangerous either way and gave him a wide berth.

[cowboy nichols]

In those, wicked so many, situations when I feel threatened by the scary folks I run to a tree and act like a nut.:D
You have to act???:banana

[ASUGrad]

" those dudes always get blown away in the movies"

My dad(WW2 Vet) used to always say during war movies "There is no way I would have carried a radio. Radioman always gets it first. Right through that radio. It happens in every movie. Give me a flame thrower. Those guys never get hurt"

[Homer&Marje]

I am ex-military and ex-LEO...

Why would you be less of a target to announce that to strangers? Sure you may have more training than most people, but if someone has a plan to harm you, they still have the entire advantage, training or not...

And really, you folks are being way too tuff on Wags... I guess because I walked away from that environment willingly, I don't carry the same passion as some of you folks.. In my mind both where bull**** jobs like nearly every other job... Your simply a tool to carry out someone elses agenda for thier (and thier friends) benifit...

But hey, if beating that war drum keeps you folks happy, beat away...


I'm glad someone brought this up. I'm not military, ex military, pro or against military.

But I'm for sure as **** not scared of you because you were or are military.

No offense. A great chef at my work is a Marine, was active in Africa and Iraq twice. Fought at Fallujah and is a pretty tough summabitch. But he knows I'm not afraid of him in a fight, not that he's afraid either. Find some mutual respect between everyone and stop thinking everyone is a friggin nutcase because a few times someone has been attacked out of hundreds of thousands and millions of people that have visited the Appalachian (mountains) trail in the last 50 + years.

WARNING ATTACKERS>>MOST WB'ERS COME EQUIPPED WITH WEAPONRY>>LIES>>OR SOME COMBAT TRAINING>>>

[saimyoji]

Find some mutual respect between everyone and stop thinking everyone is a friggin nutcase because a few times someone has been attacked out of hundreds of thousands and millions of people that have visited the Appalachian (mountains) trail in the last 50 + years.

WARNING ATTACKERS>>MOST WB'ERS COME EQUIPPED WITH WEAPONRY>>LIES>>OR SOME COMBAT TRAINING>>>

Casey Rybak was a badass SEAL, got busted to cook.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0010720/bio

[Cannibal]

Casey Rybak was a badass SEAL, got busted to cook.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0010720/bio

Would you like fries with that? :D

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/moudure/undersiege03.jpg

[Homer&Marje]

Casey Rybak was a badass SEAL, got busted to cook.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0010720/bio


That's great. Printing that, it's hangin in the kitchen tomorrow.:D

[randyg45]

No tissues necessary and my opinion of wags action is unchanged. This has nothing to do with sensitivity, but doing the right thing. Like I said previously, if the dude wanted to lie and make himself sound like Billy Badass and make himself a more difficult target, he could have said he was a black belt, LEO or something else instead of lying about service in the military.

95B, 82nd Airborne

The way I learned it, there is one rule of self-defense:

1. There are no rules.
Corollary: It is sometimes worth bonus points to talk your way out
a situation.

Someone made the point that claiming military experience you don't have can get you hurt or "shamed". So can running. So can doing nothing. So can getting in the other guys face. Anything can backfire, including my old Freightliners :)
Wags got himself out of a situation or two; no one got hurt....
Like someone else suggested I kind of take it as a compliment.
:banana Just don't make a habit of it, Wags. :banana

[superman]

" those dudes always get blown away in the movies"

My dad(WW2 Vet) used to always say during war movies "There is no way I would have carried a radio. Radioman always gets it first. Right through that radio. It happens in every movie. Give me a flame thrower. Those guys never get hurt"

Yeah, you've got to be nuts to be a RTO.:)

[sheepdog]

Just remember the enemy deserves no mercy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oP2F5CM30k

[Homer&Marje]

Just remember the enemy deserves no mercy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oP2F5CM30k


Oh no they don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxL11RIEb5Q&feature=related

[SGT Rock]

I'm glad someone brought this up. I'm not military, ex military, pro or against military.

But I'm for sure as **** not scared of you because you were or are military.

No offense. A great chef at my work is a Marine, was active in Africa and Iraq twice. Fought at Fallujah and is a pretty tough summabitch. But he knows I'm not afraid of him in a fight, not that he's afraid either. Find some mutual respect between everyone and stop thinking everyone is a friggin nutcase because a few times someone has been attacked out of hundreds of thousands and millions of people that have visited the Appalachian (mountains) trail in the last 50 + years.

WARNING ATTACKERS>>MOST WB'ERS COME EQUIPPED WITH WEAPONRY>>LIES>>OR SOME COMBAT TRAINING>>>

Thanks Homer and/or Marje. I think you point something out here that I think needs to be highlighted again so the civies get it as to why I am pointing this out:

I don't tell people I'm former Army to scare them. I doubt Hooch, vamelungeon, Zoidfu, DAJA, randyg45, or anyone that has served honorably does either. We don't consider ourselves scary guys, we are just guys. Apparently the only ones that consider us scary and want to cash in on that are people that haven't served or did so in a way that is less than honorable. Vets know who I am talking about.

People who lie about military service are trying to use their lie to gain an advantage - justify that advantage however you want (HYOH? Laugh:rolleyes:). People lying to gain an advantage should be guarded against. Whenever one is spotted his or her existence should be made known to all other hikers before they are taken in, taken advantage of, hurt, or end up out of food and gear in the middle of no where.

Someone has mentioned he only did this to protect himself and it apparently worked to his point of view. But I think back to last year when I walked up on Old Orchard shelter and the three college students armed themselves with hatchets and knives. I just ate my snickers. I imagine the "scary guys" probably were as dangerous as I was to these three college boys. And the posters tactics were probably viewed about the way I viewed the armed college guys.:-?

He can continue to do whatever he wants. He has already stated he will. But someone reading this hopefully gets the idea that many people are not only NOT SCARED by your lie, but chances are good you are signaling something entirely different from what you are trying to.:D

[Gray Blazer]

Your painting with a broad brush if you think that kid is a sociopath versus a product of an ill environment with a lack of education and generations now worth of mistakes.

So are you saying it's ok for this guy to kill you as opposed to the "white sociopath"?

[Homer&Marje]

So are you saying it's ok for this guy to kill you as opposed to the "white sociopath"?

Of course that's what I'm saying.............right....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm saying that a lot of people like to bring terms to the conversation like "gangbanger" and "ethnic" sociopath.

I'm saying, that products of ill environment sometimes should not be labeled sociopaths, not denying that people of different race, color, and creed CAN, and ARE sociopaths.

But I'm more worried about the 35 year old white guy that's dressed in a polo shirt walking through the woods muttering to himself about anti-socialism and how the government has screwed him and revenge will be taken out as soon as the steps are in place.

(False scenario that might represent someone of an unbalance nature)

(Wait. Am I muttering to myself? Time to read more of the book, the book! THE BOOK!! )
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Industrial_Society_and_Its_Future

[Gray Blazer]

Good post, Homer.

[mister krabs]

OK, this isn't about gi-joe wannabees or real servicemen or even the trail. It is about me and my close call this weekend in suburbia. Last Friday, there was a murder (http://www.11alive.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=128445&provider=top) across from my son's school. It's across the railroad tracks and about a quarter mile as the crow flies. The victim had been using day laborers and paying them cash, apparently they held him up and shot him when he came home from walking the kids to school. Police swarmed the area all Friday night, helicopters and spotlights searching the woods and CSX line behind our house. They didn't find the suspects and moved on. It rained torrentially all weekend, we got about 4 inches, so I didn't do my normal weekend yardwork, messing around in the back.

Yesterday afternoon I went out the back door looking for something that the dog had grabbed and ran outside with. Next to the guest room window on the ground was a nylon bomber jacket. I put 2&2 together and called 911. The murderer had apparently been hiding in my back yard friday afternoon. CSI came and picked up the jacket, it was dripping blood. (why do the CSI chicks not look like they do on TV?) They'll be back today to check out the scene in daylight. Hopefully he is feeding the maggots in the woods behind the house, or at least in fear for his life and in great pain.

Safer on the trail indeed. My 7yo son is pretty freaked out, I'm wishing we were there now. I wouldn't be worried about a threatening trail encounter, that's for sure.

[Homer&Marje]

Good post, Homer.

What did you like about it?:D:-?

[Desert Reprobate]

Some drunks will take Special Forces claims as a challenge.

[Homer&Marje]

Some drunks will take Special Forces claims as a challenge.

Depends on what branch:D

Army Delta and Marine Recon, rather behave myself:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[BR360]

People who lie about [xxx] are trying to use their lie to gain an advantage. ... chances are good you are signaling something entirely different from what you are trying to.:D

Lying about X makes one a liar.

Our military service members serve with honor to protect our freedoms, no matter their rank, their job, or their branch.

So lying about being in the military makes one not only a liar, but dishonorable, despicable, low-life.

And, as Rock said, it sure communicates a degree of judgment (or lack thereof) that others should know about. One simple thing can undermine credibility and trust.

I'll forgive Wags his indiscretion. And I'd take this thread as education that there are better ways to provide psychological cover when confronted with shady characters.

[ASUGrad]

Next lesson: How to defend yourself against a man armed with....a Snickers.

I just tell people I am a bear. Everyone on the Trail is scared of bears.

[BR360]

I Just Tell People I Am A Bear. Everyone On The Trail Is Scared Of Bears.

:d :d :d :d :d

[BR360]

I just tell people I am a bear. Everyone on the Trail is scared of bears.

:D :D :D :D :D

(Big grin 5 times; 2nd attempt.)

[Lone Wolf]

I just tell people I am a bear. Everyone on the Trail is scared of bears.

no **** there! hikers are more likely to get attacked and killed by a human than they are a bear. buncha skeered weenies :cool:

[IceAge]

Next lesson: How to defend yourself against a man armed with....a Snickers.

I just tell people I am a bear. Everyone on the Trail is scared of bears.

You should steal a few food bags to improve your disguise.

[vonfrick]

For some reason most people don't want to hang out with a diseased person. A little research will arm anyone with a description of a little known disease that could be highly contagious and keep a potential attacker from any desire of coming too close. It works very well especially if one wants to hike alone. Few people wanna talk too long with a depressed person trying to come to terms with their disease. I never needed to use this ploy but am armed with a few medical terms that will raise eyebrows and cause most to reconsider approach. For example being at a stage of remission with Hansen's Disease aka Leprosy.

that's it!!! i'm changing my trailname to "HERPES" :-?


" those dudes always get blown away in the movies"

My dad(WW2 Vet) used to always say during war movies "There is no way I would have carried a radio. Radioman always gets it first. Right through that radio. It happens in every movie. Give me a flame thrower. Those guys never get hurt"

don't forget, if you're ever in a star trek episode, don't be the guy in the red shirt :)

[njordan2]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.

[Wheeler]

Sound's like the best way to avoid uncomfortable/danger encounter's with weirdo's is to not lie about being in the military?

[superman]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.

and then the nice person is so pissed off they beat you to death with your pepper spray.:)

[zoidfu]

Lying about X makes one a liar.

Our military service members serve with honor to protect our freedoms, no matter their rank, their job, or their branch.

So lying about being in the military makes one not only a liar, but dishonorable, despicable, low-life.

And, as Rock said, it sure communicates a degree of judgment (or lack thereof) that others should know about. One simple thing can undermine credibility and trust.

I'll forgive Wags his indiscretion. And I'd take this thread as education that there are better ways to provide psychological cover when confronted with shady characters.

At least Rock made a valid point in that the lie could backfire(although he stated his opinion as fact). You don't have one other than, "I'm offended and my feelings got hurt." Get over yourself and put what he did in context.

This is getting to be absurd...

[saimyoji]

don't forget, if you're ever in a star trek episode, don't be the guy in the red shirt :)

sure, like this guy. don't wanna be him if your in star trek. :rolleyes:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/admiral%20kirk/General_Lynch/CaptainKirk.jpg

[DAJA]

Wow, people are still harping on poor Wag for claiming to be ex-military in an attempt to prevent a bad situation... Folks, relax a little with the self apprechiation, and all your patriotic duty...

Wow, not sure about the US military, but many, in fact nearly all, of the folks I served with, joined the military because A) They had no other opportunity for a paycheck either due to lack of education or skills on their part or B)lack of opportunities due to the region of the country they came from. (Most Canadian soldier's are from the Atlantic Provinces)...

So you can tout this honor and higher duty crap all you want, at the end of the day, most join for a steady paycheque and a chance to get away from home...

It's a BS job like any other...

[zoidfu]

Wow, people are still harping on poor Wag for claiming to be ex-military in an attempt to prevent a bad situation... Folks, relax a little with the self apprechiation, and all your patriotic duty...

Wow, not sure about the US military, but many, in fact nearly all, of the folks I served with, joined the military because A) They had no other opportunity for a paycheck either due to lack of education or skills on their part or B)lack of opportunities due to the region of the country they came from. (Most Canadian soldier's are from the Atlantic Provinces)...

So you can tout this honor and higher duty crap all you want, at the end of the day, most join for a steady paycheque and a chance to get away from home...

It's a BS job like any other...

I think that's true for the most part but many develop their appreciation for what they do and stand for while they're still enlisted(and quite a few who discover it once they figure out they can wave it in a civilian's face when they get their discharge). I understand their pride but like I said, put Wags' situation in context- He wasn't looking to insult the military.

[Gray Blazer]

don't forget, if you're ever in a star trek episode, don't be the guy in the red shirt :)

......and if you're a girl, don't fall in love with Captain Kirk. You'll die before the episode's over. Talk about post-truamatic!

[sheepdog]

Most everyone I've met I've liked. There have been a few that have annoyed me. None that I ever felt threatend by.

[superman]

Most everyone I've met I've liked. There have been a few that have annoyed me. None that I ever felt threatend by.

I never felt threatened on the AT either. Maybe the scary people are in the shelters?:-?

[bigmac_in]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.


Some dumbarse sprays me with pepper spray for no good reason, there will be no accepting an apology. But there might be an arse kicking. Apologies don't make everything OK. What kind of comment is that?

[Spogatz]

Whenever I see a strange hiker I just say “hi”


It is usually my wife…….

[sheepdog]

Some dumbarse sprays me with pepper spray for no good reason, there will be no accepting an apology. But there might be an arse kicking. Apologies don't make everything OK. What kind of comment is that?
You gotta admit it would be funny. I said I was sorry, ouch oof, please stop:banana

[superman]

I think that's true for the most part but many develop their appreciation for what they do and stand for while they're still enlisted(and quite a few who discover it once they figure out they can wave it in a civilian's face when they get their discharge). I understand their pride but like I said, put Wags' situation in context- He wasn't looking to insult the military.
I enlisted to learn how to run bulldozers. I was trained in it and that was the last time I touched a bulldozer. I had orders for a unit in the rear with the beer. Instead I would up as an RTO in the bush. The OJT learning curve was more than extreme...my survival seemed unlikely. Something unexpected happened when I cleared post and had all that time as I flew back across the big puddle. I'd done a job that was harder than anything I'd ever thought I could do. I'd not only survived but I felt I'd done a damn good job. I felt empowered and proud of what I and those around me had done. It was good that I felt that way because it helped bouy me through the years of hatred directed at me for my service in Vietnam. When I got off the plane one of those jesus azz holes told us we were going to go to hell for what we'd done in Vietnam. You'd think that that was old news but two years ago on Veteran's Day I had two religious types sit in my living room and tell me the same thing. I never expected much...but I never expected what I got. ...and so it goes

PS I threw them out of my house.

[maybeFritz]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.

Yes, I am sure a nice person who feels like their face is melting off, can't breath or open their eyes will be willing to forgive everything. Hurts like h..., actually. Pepper spray is still a weapon. Less lethal, but still a weapon you had better be sure about before using. If I am walking along and get sprayed, I am considering it a significant threat to my well-being and at the least the poles are coming toward the sprayer.

[randyg45]

Yes, I am sure a nice person who feels like their face is melting off, can't breath or open their eyes will be willing to forgive everything. Hurts like h..., actually. Pepper spray is still a weapon. Less lethal, but still a weapon you had better be sure about before using. If I am walking along and get sprayed, I am considering it a significant threat to my well-being and at the least the poles are coming toward the sprayer.

It's hard for me to imagine a jury who find a man guilty for shooting someone who assaulted him with pepper spray. Might even be hard to interest a prosecutor in bringing charges,,,

[Homer&Marje]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.


and then the nice person is so pissed off they beat you to death with your pepper spray.:)

I. Will. Beat you to death. With your pepper spray. If you spray me....on accident....for no reason.

As soon as I can see well enough to do so.

[SGT Rock]

Wow, people are still harping on poor Wag for claiming to be ex-military in an attempt to prevent a bad situation... Folks, relax a little with the self apprechiation, and all your patriotic duty...

Wow, not sure about the US military, but many, in fact nearly all, of the folks I served with, joined the military because A) They had no other opportunity for a paycheck either due to lack of education or skills on their part or B)lack of opportunities due to the region of the country they came from. (Most Canadian soldier's are from the Atlantic Provinces)...

So you can tout this honor and higher duty crap all you want, at the end of the day, most join for a steady paycheque and a chance to get away from home...

It's a BS job like any other...
Actually, at least for me and many others, it wasn't a BS job. If you didn't like it or do it well you probably will get this opinion of it. I know some of my ****Birds over the years thought it was BS, but then again they were also not very good soldiers.

Anyhow: Wags, claim to be Canadian military. DAJA will back you up :rolleyes:

All that said, I really don't think Wags owes anyone an apology and someone said they would forgive him - I don't think it really is anything that needs forgiven. But if I saw someone pumping their water from the bottom of a pit latrine, I'd tell them their filter may be great, but it probably isn't going to work like they think it will. In this case I am saying that claiming to be former military to scare away the bad guys is a bad idea for the reasons I have stated previously.

And all the emotion brought up by this whole subject highlights another problem with this tactic. While I am just going to tell everyone I meet that HikerX is a liar and cannot be trusted because he is claiming service that isn't real, other people are going to get highly offended when they find out. It is a hot button topic for many. I doubt DAJA or Zoidfu is going to be there to try and protect you if it does blow up in your face. I know they are the cool, laid back guys you hope you will run into, but there are all types out there, some of which aren't laid back and some of which don't see their time the way DAJA did.

Think about it.

[SGT Rock]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.
Unless they don't accept your apology. Then you can be charged with assault or maybe even aggravated assault depending on the jurisdiction.

[Homer&Marje]

Unless they don't accept your apology. Then you can be charged with assault or maybe even aggravated assault depending on the jurisdiction.


Good point. As soon as I can see. I want to see your permit for that there pepper spray.

Probly keep it the bottom of your pack anyways. Do you carry it to bed? Cause I can't wait for the beginning of that thread.


Title: Pepper Spray Can Goes Off While Sleeping!!

[Hooch]

.......As soon as I can see. I want to see your permit for that there pepper spray.......In most states, you don't need a permit for it. Your state may vary.

[SGT Rock]

As far as I know you do not need a permit for Pepper Spray in Tennessee unless you are serving as a police officer or security guard, then you must have a certificate showing you have been certified in it's use.

I've got that and baton. I haven't got taser as my company policy doesn't allow us to carry them.

[SteveJ]

I enlisted to learn how to run bulldozers. I was trained in it and that was the last time I touched a bulldozer. I had orders for a unit in the rear with the beer. Instead I would up as an RTO in the bush. The OJT learning curve was more than extreme...my survival seemed unlikely. Something unexpected happened when I cleared post and had all that time as I flew back across the big puddle. I'd done a job that was harder than anything I'd ever thought I could do. I'd not only survived but I felt I'd done a damn good job. I felt empowered and proud of what I and those around me had done. It was good that I felt that way because it helped bouy me through the years of hatred directed at me for my service in Vietnam. When I got off the plane one of those jesus azz holes told us we were going to go to hell for what we'd done in Vietnam. You'd think that that was old news but two years ago on Veteran's Day I had two religious types sit in my living room and tell me the same thing. I never expected much...but I never expected what I got. ...and so it goes

PS I threw them out of my house.

superman, in case no one has said it lately, thank you for your service.

Steve

[J5man]

Peggy Childers is delusional, but a super nice person. I haven't seen her in several years, but used to see her at Fullhardt Knob or Cornelius Creek Shelters in Central VA at least a couple times per year.

If you can get past the Bill Bryson-style whoppers, she knows a lot about real life too. And, BTW—she could teach a lot of y'all about yogiing, and living for long stints in the woods. She is the personification of Hiker Trash, tho I'm thinking she doesn't actually hike that much anymore. Um, either do many of the HT I know come to think of it. :D

Anyone seen her in the past year or so? How's she doing? Where might one find her these days if one wanted to visit?

So she is for real?!!!! Hikerhead and I hiked in that area one day and I didn't believe him, another time we hiked a side trail (actually and old AT section) that led up to the Fulhardt Shelter and we saw some signs of inhabitation and also looked like people were leaving caches of water and things for her close to the road. Not sure if they were for her or just caches for other hikers but it kinda freaked me out.

[dmax]

After reading this, I'm thinking of not going with "I'm an Ultimate Fighting Champion". I can just imagine what would happen to me next.:D

[DAJA]

Well Rock here we are again... You clearly seem to take exception to many of my opinion's, and have taken two cheap shots... The first time, I politely asked you not to take a tone and we could have a nice conversation. This time I'll simply say this. I'm not looking for a pissing match.. If you can find a sense of pride in your service, then be thankful.. I'll rest easy knowing I walked when I could no longer justify the means nor the ends.. It wasn't that I wasn't good at it, really whats to be good at, don't think, don't question, do what your told... Very young children can muster that kind of performance... What I wasn't good at is respecting those doing the telling and what they where asking.

I guess in the end i'm no more proud of my country and it's role in past events than I would be to find out my son is the neighborhood bully...Just because you play on the team with the biggest stick doesn't give you the right to rewrite the rules for your opposition..

But to get back on track... Use common sense, don't ignore your instincts, be aware of your suroundings and you'll be fine... Most of the time..

[Wise Old Owl]

Sgt Rock does it appear that there are far more questions about personal safety this year over previous?

[SGT Rock]

Yep. And I think there is more discussion of it too.

If you would have asked me two years ago if defending yourself on the trail was a big worry, I would have said no. The incidents were spread out over time. Most were in places within a mile or so of a road, so camp away from roads was the best defense. Most killings were of women, or men with women - so if you are a solo male you would have been less of a target than if you were a woman or hiking with one. Sorry for that ladies, but it is pretty much true.

Since then we had a murder last year right before thru-hiker season, then had an attempted double murder near the trail buy a guy released recently from prison for a previous double murder on the trail, and we also had one rape last year. I think a second was reported that turned out to be false. Last year was a crazy year.

The last few years there have also been con artists (for lack of a better term), who have been conning people out of money, stealing from other hikers, and stealing from service providers and locals along the trail.

There were also a few recent incidents of assaults or odd acting hikers threatening other hikers. None that I recall from last year, but a couple of them I can think of right off in the last 4 years.

So this year more new people are bringing it up. Normal "don't worry about it" seems bad advice so more people that have been around a while are talking about it. Telling people to be on guard and what to watch out for seems to be a good idea. Guys carrying odd gear or acting a little weird are a part of the trail, and always will be. Seeing one is a possible warning sign, but I tend to think that looking for these things as the key indicators is a bad idea.

Guys lying about military service seem to be a common thread in many of these guys - not just the killings, but the assaults, robberies, cons, etc. Also watch out for odd acting people latching onto you while you hike, occasionally it seems these are the guys. Watch out for the pods of drunks that get reps up and down the trail, sometimes the folks that steal and cause problems flock together.

I'd like to see more pattern analysis of the potential threats so they can be avoided. Avoidance is the best way of all to deal with these people. The problem is if you start talking about Crutch as the guy this year - there is the possibility someone is just trying to make him look bad and is slandering him on the web. So we discourage the use of calling out the "bad guys" here because that method can cause more problems than it solves.

Guns, nijitsu, spray, etc are all the final resort. I wouldn't recommend these to anyone unless that person is totally proficient, safe, and comfortable with the techniques. And stay legal. Some of these methods would be illegal or can be used in ways that causes more problems than fixes. And since I'm mentioning it - if I know someone is carrying it would probably get told to anyone I meet and I'd let the first LEO I met know about the guy on the trail with a gun. Someone known to have a gun on the trail immediately goes to threat category.

I do take a little comfort in that 2 murders and two attempted murders which seem to make up a lot of the worst of the worst were all from one guy that is dead.

[Bilge Rat]

So! How about that weather out there?

[zoidfu]

So! How about that weather out there?

It could be a little clearer and warmer but you can't really complain.

And I saw that "commie lefty" comment, lugnut. I'm going to let that indiscretion slide this time:D

[Lugnut]

Thank You. :)

[Sleeps_With_Skunks]

Pepper spray by far is the best. If you have a gun, sometimes you quickly run through the rationalization of using it and that takes too long.
If you use pepper spray on a nice person you only thought meant you harm, then you can always apologize and it is no big deal. If they do not accept your apology than they are a jerk who deserved it anyway.

And remember pepper spray adds flavor that bears like when they eat you. :)

I carry pepper spray and I keep in mind that if they are drunk or toasted on something then it won't work....but the mace mixed in and my foot busting their knee will. And if that doesn't work...Bearpaw does. :)

OH...and if you ever see me running make sure you keep up cause I only run from 3 things fire, bombs, and bears (once they can't see me).

[Sleeps_With_Skunks]

As far as I know you do not need a permit for Pepper Spray in Tennessee unless you are serving as a police officer or security guard, then you must have a certificate showing you have been certified in it's use.

I've got that and baton. I haven't got taser as my company policy doesn't allow us to carry them.

In TN it is legal to carry pepper spray w/o restrictions....Metro-nashville public schools justs ask that you not carry it on property unless you are security.

Here's the link to the updated laws and the state restrictions for the US.

http://www.besafeandsecure.com/index.cfm/Pepper_Spray_Laws

[Tin Man]

great posts rock.

from hear on out, i will continue to walk away from people who give me some cause for concern that they might want to share more than words. and when i encounter people who are delusional about dealing with those situations, that walk will turn into a run.

[TOW]

Anytime I hike I have a fully loaded water pistol and if the threat seems more than a water pistol can handle then I will lob a water baloon at them..........

Screw with me pal and you'll get wet........

[Tin Man]

Anytime I hike I have a fully loaded water pistol and if the threat seems more than a water pistol can handle then I will lob a water baloon at them..........

Screw with me pal and you'll get wet........

not to worry. rock already supersoaked them :D

[TOW]

Wow, people are still harping on poor Wag for claiming to be ex-military in an attempt to prevent a bad situation... Folks, relax a little with the self apprechiation, and all your patriotic duty...

Wow, not sure about the US military, but many, in fact nearly all, of the folks I served with, joined the military because A) They had no other opportunity for a paycheck either due to lack of education or skills on their part or B)lack of opportunities due to the region of the country they came from. (Most Canadian soldier's are from the Atlantic Provinces)...

So you can tout this honor and higher duty crap all you want, at the end of the day, most join for a steady paycheque and a chance to get away from home...

It's a BS job like any other...
What's your opinion about pack sniffers?

[Egads]

I was on a solo walk in MacArthur Beach State Park in Fl when I noticed 2 guys off trail. One approached me from the front and the other started to flank and follow me. It definitely seemed like a bad encounter in the works. I picked up my pace and spotted a good stout tree limb about 2 feet long and picked it up. There was no way I was going to roll over without a fight. The 2 dudes backed off only after I cleared the trees and reached the parking area.

[warraghiyagey]

Well Rock here we are again... You clearly seem to take exception to many of my opinion's, and have taken two cheap shots... The first time, I politely asked you not to take a tone and we could have a nice conversation. This time I'll simply say this. I'm not looking for a pissing match.. If you can find a sense of pride in your service, then be thankful.. I'll rest easy knowing I walked when I could no longer justify the means nor the ends.. It wasn't that I wasn't good at it, really whats to be good at, don't think, don't question, do what your told... Very young children can muster that kind of performance... What I wasn't good at is respecting those doing the telling and what they where asking.

I guess in the end i'm no more proud of my country and it's role in past events than I would be to find out my son is the neighborhood bully...Just because you play on the team with the biggest stick doesn't give you the right to rewrite the rules for your opposition..

But to get back on track... Use common sense, don't ignore your instincts, be aware of your suroundings and you'll be fine... Most of the time..

Would have been a good pm then if that's truly how you feel rather than airing it in in public in a less than passive, agressive manner. . .

[Gray Blazer]

not to worry. rock already supersoaked them :D
Soulja Boy......or should I say Soldier Boy.

Superman that! HO!

[bluffhead]

perception is reality

[DapperD]

Reading a post in another thread about someone "hiking" with suitcases on the AT got me thinking about dealing with odd and suspicious people.

(Weird people are a different matter, because most hikers are weird :D.)

Because I'm male, I'm guessing I've probably run into fewer problems than I might if I were female, and that the general threat scenario is less. But I've still run into a few loose screws and budding psychopaths out there. And I'm betting that with all the layoffs, there will be more odd and perhaps unsavory people on the trails this year with time on their hands.

Since the murders of the Bryans and Meredith Emerson, and also getting to my intended campsite in Pisgah Forest late one Friday night last September only to find a bunch of drunk and aggressive young males with BB guns shooting up the place---I have come to the conclusion that prudence calls for adaptation. [Like say, carrying a special hidden "friend." That I'd rather not have to use.]

For instance, now when I go solo I do not hike to the point where I have to quit due to fatigue. I leave some capacity so that if I get to a place that doesn't feel "right" I can continue on down the trail and away from the potential trouble. I have to say that having a hammock gives me MUCH greater flexibility, since i don't have to have a flat place to sleep...I can just string it up between trees on the side of a hill if need be; this provides much greater "stealth" in that on the side of a hill is NOT where trouble is likely to find me.

I know that perps always "interview" their victims to ascertain their vulnerability. They're looking for signs of weakness, and the psychopaths are often damn good at reading body language.

So, I've developed the following scripts to answer when "chatting" with people until I get a better feel for them. I follow my gut, and I consider their general bearing, eye contact, do they "push the boundaries," seem to personal/inquisitive, etc.

Q: [Them] "Where ya going to?"
A: I'm out hiking around these hills. How about you?

Q: [Them] "What do you like about being out here?"
A: All of it. Exercise, nature, the way you can hear all the sounds from far away.

Q: [Them] "Where you coming from?"
A. South [or North/East/West] of here a ways.

Q: [Them] "Got any friends coming?"
A. Yeah, we're spread out along the trail. How about you?

Q: [Them] "Planning on staying/camping here tonight?"
A: Just resting for now. I'll figure it out in a little while. How about you?

Q: [Them] "How many nights you out for?"
A: I take it one day at a time. You?

Q: [Them] "Mind if I come with you?"
A: I don't think that would be a good idea.

Q: [Them] "What are you, some sort of loner?"
A: Let's just say I like my space and leave it at that. [change subject].

I thought this might help some folks about to hit the trail this year, especially newbies who have less epxerience and need more thoughtful preparation.

Any other ideas for handling difficult & touchy situations?This is very good information and ideas on how to deal with problematic/potentially dangerous individuals one may meet or run into while out there. One of the wisest things as you have stated is if at all possible don't entirely exhaust your energy reserves, so if you need to continue on further than where you had anticipated stopping for the day, one is not so fatigued that this would not be possible to do. There will most certainly be times that you will need to do this, and if you are not able to, then this could potentially put one's welfare into jeapardy. When I read a lot of the post's on Whiteblaze, and from what I have read about thru-hiking in general, I believe it is one of the safer activities that one could choose to do. The majority of the people out there are not going to be a potential threat to one's safety, and one will most likely have a safe time out there. However, being out there is not going to be, obviously and like being anywhere, completely safe. There can and will be people out there who are, simply put, bad people, and they have the potential to cause problems. I think it is wise that if people attempt to hike with other's, say two or more hiking together, this does help somewhat in that sometimes if these bad individuals are out there alone, they may be less inclined to harm or harass someone who is with at least one other individual, and this is where hiking with more than one person possibly can help. As far as going out there armed with a weapon, this is something each person has to decide upon wether or not this is the correct thing for them to do (assuming they can do so legally). There probably can/will be times when having access to a weapon very well could be preferable, such as running into someone who is intent on harming someone else. As far as arriving into camp at night and finding your planned campsite occupied by rowdy individuals who are drinking/ drugging and acting in an aggressive, hostile manner, well this is pretty much something each person will have to decide upon at the time. Obviousely if one feels their safety is compromised, the solution is to leave that area for somewhere else. There have been a lot of threads on Whiteblaze lately about people holed up in the shelters, acting sociopathic, appearing derelict, begging for food and generally harassing folks. The usual story goes that it appears these people have taken up permanent residence in the shelter's, and hikers passing through feel harrassed and threatened by the behavior that they are exhibiting. In my opinion these people do not belong occupying these shelter's if they are acting this way. It is probably best, no matter how tired, to just push on away from these individuals if you feel threatened by them. Regardless of their current state of affairs (wether they truly are homeless or whatever) they do not have the right to harass other's, and threaten other's for food, goods, money, etc..I think by being careful whom we are around, and whom we choose to be out there with, and using common sense, we can sidestep alot, not all, but alot of potential risks to our heath, safety and well being.

[JP]

Most hikers are already nuts - so trying to figure out which one is the dangerous nut is like trying to guess the flavors in a box of chocolates. Chances are you will never guess right.

Honestly I would worry more about staying dry and warm than I would about which hiker out there is a nut.

The square ones are usually carmel no mater what the covering.

[Tin Man]

Most hikers are already nuts - so trying to figure out which one is the dangerous nut is like trying to guess the flavors in a box of chocolates. Chances are you will never guess right.

Honestly I would worry more about staying dry and warm than I would about which hiker out there is a nut.

spoken like a real 'chuck norris' :)

[Edvvard]

The trick is to be more of a psychopath than anyone else out there.

[yaduck9]

Yes, more competition is the answer....;)

[SonrisaJo]

In the spirit of Edvvard, having a hiking buddy by the name of "Creepster" helped me in one or two situations that felt weird.

[yaduck9]

yeah thats the thing, most ppl hope that someone sketchy doesnt come into camp. on the contrary, i wish some person comes in my camp. ive always wondered how easy/fun it would be to incapacitate a harmful person with a nice, long, heavy piece of firewood.
bury them right there, deliverance style, mark the grave with some rocks. haha. hopefully i will never have take the road to cross that bridge, and wish all the peace and serenity to everyone's adventure.


You don't go by the trail name "creepster" from time to time....

Just wonderin.

[Dogwood]

Ideas for Dealing with Odd/Suspicious People & Scenarios

Avoid the confrontations. Stay in the house and turn off the TV! And, definitely don't hike!

[weary]

i met her a couple of times
As have I. She offered me some afternoon tea. And then a few minutes later returned to the shelter in a panic. She had seen a rattlesnake on the entrance to the privy, and wanted to borrow some adhesive tape to patch some holes around the base of her tent.

I helped her with the patching, while noting no self respecting rattlesnake would ever attack through holes that small.

A few hours later the female hiker I had been sort of waiting for, showed up. The two of us quieted the "queens" fears, and then moved on north, leaving the queen to cope with the CIA, which were the creatures she most feared.

Weary

[weary]

I second that lilred:)
As I remember, Roberts Rules have no provision for multiple seconds. But regardless. If it comes to a vote, I'll vote to minimize confrontations with weird people like me, lilred, and snowshoe, whenever possible.

Weary

[Tinker]

The square ones are usually carmel no mater what the covering.

Carmel: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bibleplaces.com/images/Mt_Carmel_forests_tb_n050900.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bibleplaces.com/mtcarmel.htm&h=300&w=400&sz=34&tbnid=Oajaoozs3HmynM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMt.%2Bcarmel%2Bpicture&hl=en&usg=__lUwyDmiPUDvZTt8T5fTTo5jqTQg=&ei=BCEDTNyOLoaBlAeK4NmjCA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CA8Q9QEwAw

In New England we pronounce the "a". Hardly anyone else does, including some English people. :confused:

[Tinker]

Ideas for Dealing with Odd/Suspicious People & Scenarios

Avoid the confrontations. Stay in the house and turn off the TV! And, definitely don't hike!

........and lock the doors, windows, and get the best alarm system possible.:rolleyes:
Best method of dealing with suspicious people is to move on and don't sleep in shelters. ;)

[JP]

I havent heard anyone mention praying for protection. Read Psalm 91. Pray for wisdom while your at it. Fear not him who can destroy the body but can not destroy the sole; rather fear him that can distroy the body and sole in Hell.
"Say you are a black belt." Now that might offend me, I worked my butt off to earn my 2nd Dan.

[Dogwood]

And, get rid of all mirrors in the house!

[Sierra Echo]

I havent heard anyone mention praying for protection. Read Psalm 91. Pray for wisdom while your at it. Fear not him who can destroy the body but can not destroy the sole; rather fear him that can distroy the body and sole in Hell.
"Say you are a black belt." Now that might offend me, I worked my butt off to earn my 2nd Dan.

I always pray before I start the hike. :)

[Edie]

Yeah my friend Smith and Wesson should be here any minute now.....JK

[SamXp]

No one mentioned wearing TapOut T-Shirts?

I kid.

[Old River Rat]

A good reply, "My friend Smith and Wesson." I was wondering if I were the only one that would think of carrying a weapon. You would think something like the AT would be safe. But it seems that I keep reading accounts of crime and it is even mentioned on official state web sites. I believe in erring on the side of caution. I have been a police officer for a while now and it is true, many officers are killed with the weapons they carry. The reason is this . . . it is on our hips, in view. A concealed weapon is not likely to be taken away. It will be safe until drawn. The best scenario would be to keep it away until it is absolutely necessary to use it, and when it is drawn . . . know you have the ability to pull the trigger. Until that happens there are ways to prevent confrontation. Walk away when possible. If you see someone suspicious, keep moving. Do not look like a victim. Don't walk with a chip on your shoulder, but have a confident look. You know that look a submissive animal has? Always maintain a gap between you and a suspicious person. If they keep moving into your space, you may have a problem. This is the time to be ready to act or react. To act is better. If you are sure there is a threat, a decisive blow is in order. A hard blow to the throat or side of the neck is effective. Come up with a tactic you are confident in and play the scenario in you mind. You will act quicker if you have done it mentally over and over. If you have a partner, practice together. If it becomes physical and you are sure you cannot overpower your attacker, then you have cause to draw your weapon. Have your weapon in a place it can be drawn quickly and practice, practice, practice. Against the law to carry a concealed weapon? The old adage applies . . . I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. My personal philosophy is . . . I do not want to draw a weapon until it is a last resort. Pulling it to avoid a fight may stop the fight, but it can also land you assault charges. In conclusion, go through a course that will allow you to carry a concealed weapon in your state. You will receive training and a good knowledge of when the law allows you to use lethal force. The permit may not be valid for the AT, and I am not a lawyer, but I cannot see where having a permit will do any harm. Times are getting bad. Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over. I prefer to do all I can to prevent becoming a victim. I truly believe in patriotic, law abiding citizens being armed. God bless the USA.

[kayak karl]

i'd rather meet Odd/Suspicious People & Scenarios then YOU. Just saying.

[Old River Rat]

:) I am tame by nature. When the time comes when you need help in a life or death situation . . . call a pacifist.

[Gray Blazer]

Yeah my friend Smith and Wesson should be here any minute now.....JK


Have you seen the Public Defender?

[Cookerhiker]

...... Times are getting bad. Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over. I prefer to do all I can to prevent becoming a victim. I truly believe in patriotic, law abiding citizens being armed. God bless the USA.

What the hell are you talking about?:mad:

You talk tough but you strike me as a scared whiner who lives his life in constant fear. Take your ridiculous and paranoid ranting somewhere else!

You're really pathetic.:mad:

[Old River Rat]

I am not here to debate gun control. And I surely do not want to make enemies over this. I have spent a large portion of my life risking it, to protect and defend others. I was only giving advice based upon my life experience. As of this date it is unlawful to carry firearms into National Parks, so I must not advocate breaking the law. If you read my advice carefully you will see I rely on posture and walking away from danger whenever possible. But if a time arises where it is impossible to save your life without lethal force, I believe in using it. Again, it is unlawful to carry a weapon in National Parks, so I cannot advocate it. But there are people who are going to carry, as I have understood by reading posts on this site. Try to remember, guns do not kill people, people kill people. And this will happen if there is a gun or not. A weapon in the hands of a law abiding citizen is not dangerous. I am against laws denying good citizens the right to protect themselves against those who have no regard for law or life.

[Edie]

My post was in jest for those that did not see the "JK" after my post.

[Old River Rat]

I am sorry that my posts were offensive to some on here. I am a few years from retiring from law enforcement and I want to hike with my grandchildren and live a peaceful life. I also love fishing and gardening. I was surprised and disappointed to learn that people have been victimized on the trail. I hate it when people are victimized, the main reason I chose my life's work. My post, that caused some people on here to be offended, was a product of my disgust with those who would spoil other's right to enjoy what should be a peaceful sport. I realize some statements were made in gest. But it cannot be denied that there are questions and comments on here that are serious about guns on the trail. I carry when I am off duty. Some would want to say I am scared, paranoid, and pathetic. I say that I am not naive. I want to be prepared to counter the person who would harm me, my children, or anyone. I am glad that the vast majority, thousands and thousands of people who enjoy this sport, are law abiding. But, I will be ready for that one in a million with intentions of doing harm to me or others. My head will not be buried in the sand. So, I will not speak of this again unless asked directly. And I will apologize once again to those offended. God bless.

[Tinker]

pach 255 - Some of us don't wear seatbelts (or helmets if on two-wheeled vehicles). THAT is far more reckless than being licensed and packing heat. I have no fear of meeting fellow hikers who are carrying. I, personally, won't give folks like you a reason to draw.
In any reasonable arguement there must be extreme points of view. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Old River Rat]

Thanks for your reply Tinker. What you say is true. Statistically, flying is safer that car travel, but the crashes get all of the headlines. I see that it is true of the AT as well. I have researched the matter more since I was admonished for my opinion. I see now that violence on the AT is very sparse, but when it happens it creates a big ripple, causing everyone to feel a bit of fear. My opinion I expressed was not directed at someone who you might have a disagreement with on the trail. I understand we do not live in wild west days. I was focusing on a situation where someone has intentions of doing you serious harm. This person, I am sure, would not ever be a hiker. It would be an opportunistic thug, hanging around a shelter for example, waiting to prey upon a hiker. I am sure thugs think hikers have money, cameras, and oher things of value to rob them of. Even in this case, I advocate giving them what they want and let them leave. But if you are in a situation where your instincts tell you that you are in danger of bodily harm, don't just give up and die. Fight back. That is the context upon which I gave my opinion. Although I have been in law enforcement for a long time, I still get a bad feeling in my gut when I have to deal with a victim of violence. In every case possible I try to give advice on self help. So, I hope that my intention for the original post is understood now and I will stop being looked upon as a criminal.

[Lilred]

As of this date it is unlawful to carry firearms into National Parks, so I must not advocate breaking the law.


Umm Pach, it is legal now, to carry firearms into a national park. Your permit just has to be legal for the state you are in.

[the goat]

What the hell are you talking about?:mad:

You talk tough but you strike me as a scared whiner who lives his life in constant fear. Take your ridiculous and paranoid ranting somewhere else!

You're really pathetic.:mad:

kind of a harsh response to a fairly common opinion, don't you think?

[Old River Rat]

I am covered by the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, 18 U.S. Code 926A and 926B to carry a concealed weapon. But I thought that the right to carry on national parks was not granted by this law, but was still being debated in the courts. Thanks for the information.

I know that in this country there are strong divisions within the citizenry on the right to bear arms. My main statement to this is . . . When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Guns do not deter all crime, just as capital punishment does not deter it. But, I would have it that all law abiding citizens have something to protect themselves with, if they so choose.

I was watching some Youtube videos last night and strangely enough, I actually saw a hiker displaying an automatic pistol in one of the videos. I guess he is just another "pathetic" hiker.

I cannot wait to join the ranks of you guys. I am still in the planning stages of purchasing my gear. I am going to be a hammock user and I guess I will be labeled a "tree killer" also. I have a valuable tree that was pushed over in the last hurricane. I had to strap it in order to righten it. It has been bearing the strap for a couple of years now and is showing NO sign of injury or death.

I was fortunate to find a forum for hammock hangers. I have found a lot of good information on it. There is also a good bit of information on hammocks on this forum.
I am planning to borrow one and string it up to sleep on for a few nights before I make a final decision. I used to camp on the ground. I was unable to sleep well until I purchased a cot. A cot would surely up the weight of a pack. Hammocks seem to make sense.

Ya'll take care.

[Old River Rat]

Thanks Goat. Yes, I do believe it was harse considering the context of my post. I respect other's opinions and enjoy fair debate. I do not believe in name calling.

[couscous]

I cannot wait to join the ranks of you guys. I am still in the planning stages of purchasing my gear.

I'd suggest trying to borrow some gear before making major purchases or you will end up with a basement full of packs, tents, stoves, sleeping bags, hammocks, quilts, tarps, etc. Nothing wrong with that from my perspective, but non-hiking spouses (like my wife) tend to think one of each item should be sufficient. ~ Sounds like we would get along well on the trail.

[Cookerhiker]

kind of a harsh response to a fairly common opinion, don't you think?


Thanks Goat. Yes, I do believe it was harse considering the context of my post. I respect other's opinions and enjoy fair debate. I do not believe in name calling.

I rarely use harsh language in any of my 3,400+ posts and what set me off had nothing to do with guns on the trail or gun control per se. Rather it was this statement:



"Times are getting bad. Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over. I prefer to do all I can to prevent becoming a victim. I truly believe in patriotic, law abiding citizens being armed. God bless the USA."

This is paranoia plain and simple. It portrays a person who lives his life afraid and scared all the time. There's a continuum between being blissfully ignorant a la Pollyanna and fearing life every day you wake up. This poster is on the extreme end.

"Times are getting bad"? - crime rates are down - here's one source (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1963761,00.html). "Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over" - what is "many people?" Whatever the number, it's a safe bet that "many more people" will die violently from automobile accidents.

OK - is "pathetic" too strong a word? All right, I apologize. The poster has attempted to explain himself including an acknowledgement that he's now learned more about the AT hiking atmosphere vis-a-vis crime. And on WB we're talking about the hiking in the back country. Crime rates are extremely extremely low. There's no place for paranoia.

And Goat, I can't and won't dispute that feelings about rights to own & carry guns are "common" - but I sure hope living in constant fear isn't.

[Lone Wolf]

What the hell are you talking about?:mad:

You talk tough but you strike me as a scared whiner who lives his life in constant fear. Take your ridiculous and paranoid ranting somewhere else!

You're really pathetic.:mad:

he seems very sensible to me. why the hate?

[Old River Rat]

I think that is what I am going to do. I am going to sleep in a hammock for a couple of days just to see if it is comfortable for me. A friend of mine uses a Clark and he said they are very comfortable. The closest thing that I have to a hammock is a deer stand called a Tree Lounger. I cannot tell you how many times I have fallen asleep in it.

I try to get along with everyone. Even as a police officer, I do not make many ememies. I respect people because I am a Christian. But for the Lord's grace, there go I. You know? But I still have not learned to turn the other cheek. :) Maybe that will come with time. I am meeting people on here that I hope I will have a chance to run into when I retire. I may never be up to a thru hike of the AT, being 55 years old and feeling my age. But I am sure I will be doing shorter hikes on the AT. I have been to TN, NC several times on my motorcycle. I have sat on overlooks for hours admiring the beauty of it all. I cannot imagine how much nicer it will be walking into that beauty.

I used to camp by 4X4 trucks. I amd my young son at the time drove to places very remote. One lake we camped by had what I am sure were virgin Cypress. One had a hollow you could drive a small boat through. The Cypress knees were six feet tall. All of the trees were covered in Spanish Moss. Everytime I camped there I felt I was in a paradise. My son grew and I became busier and it all ended. I am ready to get back into it!

[sevensixtwo187]

I rarely use harsh language in any of my 3,400+ posts and what set me off had nothing to do with guns on the trail or gun control per se. Rather it was this statement:




"Times are getting bad. Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over. I prefer to do all I can to prevent becoming a victim. I truly believe in patriotic, law abiding citizens being armed. God bless the USA."


This is paranoia plain and simple. It portrays a person who lives his life afraid and scared all the time. There's a continuum between being blissfully ignorant a la Pollyanna and fearing life every day you wake up. This poster is on the extreme end.

"Times are getting bad"? - crime rates are down - here's one source (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1963761,00.html). "Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over" - what is "many people?" Whatever the number, it's a safe bet that "many more people" will die violently from automobile accidents.

OK - is "pathetic" too strong a word? All right, I apologize. The poster has attempted to explain himself including an acknowledgement that he's now learned more about the AT hiking atmosphere vis-a-vis crime. And on WB we're talking about the hiking in the back country. Crime rates are extremely extremely low. There's no place for paranoia.

And Goat, I can't and won't dispute that feelings about rights to own & carry guns are "common" - but I sure hope living in constant fear isn't.

I would have to agree that is quite the harsh statement. How on earth does this make him a scared whiner? Pathetic eh? I suppose I am also a scared whiner and pathetic myself. I am always armed unless it is illegal for me to be so where I am. I believe very deeply in the right to keep and bear arms. The right to self defense is one of the most basic rights that there is. It is tied directly to the right to exist in the first place. So, if being prepared to not be a victim makes you a frightened whiner, then count me in! The world is a beautiful place ... but it can be very dangerous. Having illusions about the degree of danger is very foolish.

Just my 2 cents ....

[Old River Rat]

Cookerhiker, we need to put this behind us and be friends. I believe the last time I looked at the statistic, one in four will be the victim of a violent crime in their lifetime. I have already been a victim twice, once staring down the barrel of a handgun. I was scared. Very scared.

My only intention was to try to pass on some information that would help someone in the event there was an incident. I am sure that many on here have studied and have practiced skills that would help them in a survival situation. What is wrong with having a contingency for a nut out there who may try to injure you or take your life. You call it paranoia. I think I was being rational. You don't have any means to protect yourself or your home? Not even pepper spray?

The name calling. I do not consider myself a "tough guy." I am scared sometimes. Pathetic is a bad choice of words. I am not pathetic. I have had to overcome fear many times in my profession. I have faced, psychopaths, armed and unarmed. I have dealt with drug crazed individuals, armed and unarmed. Suicidal individuals, armed and unarmed. I have seen victims of homicides, rape, domestic violence, battery. The list goes on and on. I would not even bring this up, but I am going to defend myself. I am not pathetic. I do not consider myself special for what I do. I would probably have done something else if I had a college education. I am just an average guy, average income, average intelligence.

I am glad that this has all been aired out. I am OK. Are you?

[kanga]

I rarely use harsh language in any of my 3,400+ posts and what set me off had nothing to do with guns on the trail or gun control per se. Rather it was this statement:


"Times are getting bad. Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over. I prefer to do all I can to prevent becoming a victim. I truly believe in patriotic, law abiding citizens being armed. God bless the USA."

This is paranoia plain and simple. It portrays a person who lives his life afraid and scared all the time. There's a continuum between being blissfully ignorant a la Pollyanna and fearing life every day you wake up. This poster is on the extreme end.

"Times are getting bad"? - crime rates are down - here's one source (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1963761,00.html). "Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over" - what is "many people?" Whatever the number, it's a safe bet that "many more people" will die violently from automobile accidents.

OK - is "pathetic" too strong a word? All right, I apologize. The poster has attempted to explain himself including an acknowledgement that he's now learned more about the AT hiking atmosphere vis-a-vis crime. And on WB we're talking about the hiking in the back country. Crime rates are extremely extremely low. There's no place for paranoia.

And Goat, I can't and won't dispute that feelings about rights to own & carry guns are "common" - but I sure hope living in constant fear isn't.
dude, you are going off the deep end. come back to the light.

[Cookerhiker]

Yes, I'm OK - and I said in my more recent post, you're not pathetic. Keep in mind that my characterization and use of that adjective was in response to your first post - statements like the one I highlighted made no effort to consider context i.e. differentiating hiking on the AT from strolling through Ciudad Juarez.

I exercise a healthy prudence when I'm in a location that warrants it such as when I used to commute to work via bicycle through some questionable Washington DC neighborhoods.

I refuse to live my life in fear.

Hopefully I'll see you on the Trail sometime. I don't usually look too suspicious or odd unless I've just gotten my hair cut.

[sevensixtwo187]

I find your most recent post very reasonable. I also like & agree with your point about the AT being a bit different than say, some of the rougher neighborhoods in our cities.

[Old River Rat]

I think what I had forgotten was my frame of mind when I wrote the first post. I am retiring soon from a very stressful job. I was hoping hiking would be an escape from it and all the a#!holes I have to deal with. It gets old. I guess like any job. Then I got onto this string where it mentioned suspicious persons on the AT. Then I read about murders. I got a bit mad. I guess I got off on the deep end, but honestly, I was only trying to impart some helpful information. Also, truth be known, I had a few Bud Lights. :banana

[Cookerhiker]

..... Also, truth be known, I had a few Bud Lights. :banana

Ah, there's the problem. May I recommend:

http://www.guinness.com/en-us/img/beer_pint_250.jpg

[Old River Rat]

We'll share one one day.

[Yukon]

I don't usually look too suspicious or odd unless I've just gotten my hair cut.


This made me laugh...:)

[Old River Rat]

I have a question. If you want to look at only your own posts on a forum, is that possible? How?

[Old River Rat]

I figured it out.