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Pickleodeon
02-19-2009, 09:27
Hello, for those of you who take a multivitamin or other supplements, like Glucosamine etc, how much of it do you carry at a time while on the trail?
I'm trying not to do a whole lot of mail drops, but that means I'll have to carry more at one time. Should I just put a bunch in a baggie? Or stop taking them?
I take 'em every day at home, and try and carry them on the trail. Not sure how effective vitamins are on the trail. That being said... I still take 'em. NO more or less than I do at home.
Baggie is fine - or a pill container.
bikerscars
02-19-2009, 09:34
i keep it simple
depending on the length of the hike...i just take the original bottle or downsize to a bottle that'll hold enough pills but no more
i make sure the desiccant goes along with me
i like the insurance a good quality multi gives me...hyoh
I take NewChapter Everyman Once Daily. I intend on taking one everyday on the trial in a baggie. I grew up in Knoxville so friends and family will be joining me all along the way until VA, where I will then use mail drops I guess.
Pickleodeon
02-19-2009, 11:44
I should add it would be for a thruhike.
Probably require maildrops then. Which in my opinion are a PITA. Nutrition is very important though.
Good luck!
Celeritas
02-19-2009, 12:08
Here's what I plan on bringing and mail-dropping every so often:
http://www.bokusuperfood.com/boku/ingredients/superfoodingredients
http://www.sunwarrior.com/product-information/protein.html
http://www.sunwarrior.com/product-information/activated-barley/nutrition-facts.html
Cabin Fever
02-19-2009, 12:14
One option could be GNC Vitapaks, but they could cause a bit of trash. I use these tiny tupperware pods for my vitamins.
Many Walks
02-19-2009, 12:21
Vitamins and supplements are over the counter and can be purchased along the way. Shipping something like that just adds cost and hassle. You can buy them in fairly small bottles to save weight and keep them dry, then just replenish at the next opportunity when you run out. Prescription meds require a little more planning. Hope you have a great hike!
max patch
02-19-2009, 12:22
Females "may" also need additional calcium.
Vitamins and supplements are over the counter and can be purchased along the way.
True. But a lot of vitamins like Centrum and other grocery store supplements go through your body like a can of beer. Research what you buy or you will be literally pissing (dark yellow) away time and money in town looking for stuff.
If you are taking a one a day type supplement or a small number of supplements per day carry about 3 wks. worth at at time. Prority mail additional 3 wk supplies to yourself along the trail. A large percentage of AT thru-hikers will most likely visit a town or be where supplements can be shipped at least twice in 3 wks hiking time. If you are experiencing benefits from taking supplements while being off the trail I would think not taking them while on the trail may not be in your bodies best interest. A thru-hiker can certainly benefit from all the support it can get in terms of supplying their bodies with what they need. Do you feel you need supplements? Do you feel you recieve benefits from taking supplements when not hiking? If yes, continue taking supplements while hiking!
Vitamins and supplements are over the counter and can be purchased along the way. Shipping something like that just adds cost and hassle. You can buy them in fairly small bottles to save weight and keep them dry, then just replenish at the next opportunity when you run out. Prescription meds require a little more planning. Hope you have a great hike!
Depends on what one takes. If all a person takes is a generic multi one a day type supplement they can be found in many places along the way in small enough quantities so the entire quantity is consumed before having to purchase another quantity. When one takes a variety of individual supplements or wants to take a specific brand or takes a harder to find supplement what I've found is purchasing(if what one takes is available when the previous supply runs out) along the way is quite a bit more expensive then priority shipping small amts. of supplements to you while on the trail.
Many Walks
02-19-2009, 14:16
Yup, everyone makes good points. Given the info in the original post, I just didn't see anything special about a multivitamin or Glucosamine. Pickleodeon knows what she takes and most likely the general availability. The best we can do is offer thoughts on the information as given. If it's nothing special I'd still buy along the way. Have a great day all!
Pickleodeon
02-20-2009, 13:13
Thanks! My main concern is low iron, my multivitamin has iron in it. I think I'll just leave the glucosamine at home.
hopefulhiker
02-20-2009, 14:35
I used maildrops, I carried more Ibuprophren (vitamin I) than anything else.. also took multivitamins and glucosamine.
Glucosamine is a supplement that's not a magic bullet. Most people need to take it for awhile in the proper dosage(for an adult it's customarily 1500 mg) before one starts seeing benefits. I say that because if you have been taking it consistently for quite awhile and then stop taking it when you hit the trail, which is when your joints might need it the most, many people just can't start taking it again and notice the benefits again immediately. Glucosamine has been shown to improve joint function and when taken w/ Chondroitin, MSM, and Hyaluronic Acid can act in a synergistic fashion.
I have been a basketball and hard court tennis player and jogger most of my life. I understand what putting stress on my joints can do. Although individual results may vary depending on a great many factors I have experienced significant benefits in my joints, ligaments, and muscles from taking this combination of supplements. I don't hit a trail without them.
hopefulhiker
02-20-2009, 14:49
i take glucosamine all the time now...
Blissful
02-20-2009, 15:19
I think I'll just leave the glucosamine at home.
No way, I wouldn't. Esp if your knees thrive on it (mine do. Without it they ache something fierce). And that's one thing that gets beat up early on - your knees.
I took besides my prescription meds- multi vite, glucosmine, Co Q, Vit C. And used mail drops for them along with packing Vit I (I took the Advil liquigels) and Aleve for at night. Repackage in a Ziploc (not a cheap brand) snack bags. Worked just fine.
gonewalkabout
02-20-2009, 23:51
I take Glucosamine w/ Chondroitin andMSM. I have no idea if it works. The requirement qould be 4 pills per day. I also take calcium. 4 pils per day. Than to help retain the calcium you need d3. And Vitiman c does wonders for you. 4 pils a day to 2000 mg. Probably really should take more. Now there are oter vitiman that should be taken with the calcium. But any way for Thats 13 pils per day minimun. Thats 270 pils for 3 weeks. I be temped to leave the Glucosamine at home. I have osteoporosis and thats right guys its not just for women anymore. The thing Glucosamine helps with osteoporosis in addition to the caclium. From what I understand enven the Glucosamine w/ Chondroitin andMSM found in walmart works fine however find the best caclium and other vitiman may not.
Anyway HYOH and good luck.
Thanks! My main concern is low iron, my multivitamin has iron in it. I think I'll just leave the glucosamine at home.
Consider carrying blackstrap molasses as a pick-me-up and to add calories and iron to your diet. There may be better backcountry alternatives, perhaps it's available dried, or it might be more effective from the standpoint of pack weight to obtain Fe as you suggest from a multivitamin.
I carried a pound of honey and would take a tablespoon when my energy seemed to wane. Hydration and sound sleep too are of course important to maintain clear thinking, emotional stability and energy levels.
No way, I wouldn't. Esp if your knees thrive on it (mine do. Without it they ache something fierce). And that's one thing that gets beat up early on - your knees.
I took besides my prescription meds- multi vite, glucosmine, Co Q, Vit C. And used mail drops for them along with packing Vit I (I took the Advil liquigels) and Aleve for at night. Repackage in a Ziploc (not a cheap brand) snack bags. Worked just fine.
Blissful, Pickle is more than 20 years younger than you were when you through hiked. Unless she believes she would benefit from glucosamine based upon her experiences off-trail, why do you think she would benefit from it and how might she know if it would be worth adding it at some point? Please post more on this topic. I am interested in hearing more about your opinions and the science and personal experience upon which they are based.
I ask because I have taken an interest in Pickle getting as far as she can and hope she will have the best information available to facilitate her reaching Katahdin so long as she continues to desire it.
Blissful
02-21-2009, 21:41
Blissful, Pickle is more than 20 years younger than you were when you through hiked. Unless she believes she would benefit from glucosamine based upon her experiences off-trail, why do you think she would benefit from it and how might she know if it would be worth adding it at some point? Please post more on this topic. I am interested in hearing more about your opinions and the science and personal experience upon which they are based.
I'm only saying if one has been taking glucosomine all along that to go without it on a hike just to save weight would not be a good thing. But of you have no need of it now (you've got healthy knees, no prior injuries and have been good engaged in harsh physical activity) then you may well not need it. But I know I had knee trouble since I was in high school from a knee injury suffered in track. My knee would ache off and on for years until this product came on the market - so it was extremely beneficial for me. I'm not going to get into the scientific facts of it right now - one can do their own research on the Internet. But it works for me and it works for others too.
Thank you for your post. You're right, discussing glucosamine in greater detail would be more appropriate in another thread. It's quite possible one already exists.:)
Pickleodeon
02-23-2009, 14:52
Well, I'm not planning on doing a lot of maildrops, so my question is, with any supplements, vitamins, etc. How much should one carry? Enough for a month or so? More? Less? If I resupply in town and buy them then I have a whole bottle of what, like 100 or more?
mountain squid
02-23-2009, 15:06
I'd carry enough to get to your next maildrop, which for me was about every 30 days or so, when I was also receiving maps. I kept them in the snack size ziploc.
If you do end up with too many in town, you could put the remainder in a hiker box (labeled, of course).
See you on the trail,
mt squid
The previous answer is the right answer which you likely already knew.
You won't want to be spending a great deal of time fooling around gathering what you need when you reach civilization. You'll want to get done what you must and get some high-quality sleep.
I picked up a box at the post office at least weekly and didn't find it a hardship. It was part of what motivated me to keep moving and maintain steady progress.
So you'll be packing vitamins. I can think of heavier things to carry.:-?
Pickleodeon, I think Mountain Squid and Emerald have offered a doable scenario. If you take a 30 day supply w/ you to start and considering it takes about 4-5 months to complete an AT thru-hike, that means you will need 3 or 4 vitamin mail drops spaced apart at 30 day intervals to keep yourself in vitamins. If you are planning on just taking any generic multi one a day type vitamin they can be purchased along the way at many places in small enough quantities so you can finish one supply before having to repurchase a new supply. You are a 22 yr. old adult. Use the info provided to best determine what's right for your hike.
Play nice with the Appalachian Trail enthusiast from Pennsylvania's Green Diamond! Leesport is just over the river and through the woods. We take care of our own here.
Pickleodeon
02-24-2009, 11:08
got it figured out. I like to get other people's advice and opinions. Most of the time all of you wonderful people have more experience with such things. Thank ya.
I carry Glucosomine (torn MCL), fish oil and a multi in a plastic bag.
Lucy Lulu
02-24-2009, 19:10
I take a multi-vitamin and Glucosomine on long distance hikes. I take them every other day, and just carry them in a ziplock bag.
you will be literally pissing (dark yellow) away time and money in town looking for stuff.
B-complex normally causes your next big urine output to be considerably darker or even florecent looking. This is normal and not just the vitamines passing right through you. That being said this is what im taking on my thru hike:
Vita C - antioxixdants and immune booster (enough for whole trip)
Bcomplex - good for helping convert food into energy (enough for half trip)
Potassium - helps avoid cramps (enough for half trip)
Echinechia - great immune booster (enough for whole trip)
Amoxicillin - Few for emergency, use to prevent infection
Tylonal and Cold med.
All together these fill up a quart size ziplock, havent weighed it but its heavier than most would want to carry probably. but i really dont want to use mail drops and my pack is under 40 lbs anyway.
I would first add up all the vitamins and minerals in my food, then see what more is needed, if any.
Highway Man
02-26-2009, 13:15
Does anybody know how often I will get Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM supplies at the stores along the entire AT, as well as Creatine? I've got good result of using these supplements in the last a few months.
Pickleodeon
02-26-2009, 15:48
I got flexamin at wal-mart. triple strength. The dosage is two per day. some you have to take like 4 per day, that's a lot to carry.
Does anybody know how often I will get Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM supplies at the stores along the entire AT, as well as Creatine? I've got good result of using these supplements in the last a few months.
A Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM combination in one pill, like Flex-A-Min or Osteo-Flex, can be found quite regularly along the AT at grocery stores and pharmacies. However, you may not find them in the quantities you desire. Finding those supplements individually is less common. Creatine is going to be harder to find along the AT. Pure Creatine is not something commonly found in grocery stores or pharmacies. You will find Creatine at places like Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, and health/natural food stores.
Pickleodeon, now you are starting to understand why I recommended mailing 3 wk supplies in my first post or a 30 day supply in post #27 if you are taking very much more than a generic one a day multi type vitamin. Also, consider some hikers take multiple harder to find supplements- even more to carry. Availability may also be an issue at the time when you need to resupply along the way. And, even if those supplements are available when you run out they may not ba available in the dosages amd quantities that you want. And, if you are taking several supplements they are not always available in like amts. which means you run out of one supplement while you still have enough of another supplement. If you are taking several or harder to find supplements, don't want to haul large amts of supplements, or be wasteful it is sooo much less complex to just mail yourself supplies along the way to individual drops or keep bouncing a box containing vitamins ahead. No need to stop taking supplements because it seems too complex to do so. Why stop taking something if you are experiencing positive results?
Dental_FlossTycoon
03-02-2009, 17:30
There is a lot of propaganda out there from companies trying to make money with supplements, and most of it is just "homeopathic" and can't be replicated in a Scientific Study using trials and proper methods.
There are thousands of plants and herbs that can ease pain to various levels depending on the pain of course, but the Supplement and "Homeopathy" world have really gone to town with their propaganda and it's very difficult to tell the mysth from the truth, some "remedies" and "elixer's" are completely useless.
Well from all the research I've done, and some talking to some very good friends that are Medical Doctor's, I would say that most people in the medical fields are in agreement on a few things about supplements and vitamins.
Zinc:
Newer and less influenced studies not by the Zinc industry, and using better scientific method, they have concluded that Zinc does abo****ely nothing to ease the symptoms of or make a cold disappear any quicker than placebo. It's useless and the candy/menthal flavor they put with it is probably the only beneficial thing from a lozenge since it numbs the throat a bit and is sweet.
Vitamin C:
Taking Vitamin C is useless, there's no such thing as "Boosting your immunity" and unless you have a strange vitamin deficiency through illness or whatever, taking large dosages of it is a waste. A normal diet will most likely give you enough Vitamin C to keep you healthy.
Glucosamine Chondroitin:
Studies have been inconclusive with glucosamine chondroitin, more research is need but many people who suffer Arthritic or joint problem claim to experience a smoother movement in their joints after taking it consistently for at least a week daily. They have higher dose versions of it so if you are using it, use the maximum dosage.
Fish Oil:
Omega 3 has been found to be beneficial in some studies, but the pill form of the Omega 3 has scored very low in success rates of said studies. Eating from the source (fish) seems to be best.
All of it said and done, Thru-Hikers as a whole are vitamin deficient due to their lack of consuming dairy and fresh vegetables on the trail. Therefore, a Multi-Vitamin to help "supplement" the lack of a variety that of which a healthy diet should include might just be beneficial in keeping joint, bone, skin and muscle growth/ maintenance healthy for 5 months on the trail.
They should also listen to their cravings, as this can tell a lot to what the body needs. On those zero days, eat what you crave, not necessarily "what you always get" just because you want to be known as always getting your cheeseburger and pint of ice-cream everytime you hit town. Your body may need or want something different, which is good. Variety is good, excess isn't always though.
There are a lot of random herbs and roots that are packaged and touted as "medicinal" or "homeopathic" and "Ancient Chinese" etc. but you MUST remember that many of them are NOT FDA approved or tested, and in fact may have residual lead or whatever harmful chemical from China or whomever packaged it causing many more problems and issues than you thought.
Also, these strange herbs or roots may actually interfere with any prescription medications you are on, causing strange behaviors or reactions to what would be assumed just a normal and relatively risk free drug, (aka heart medication, Diabetes etc.)
Desert Reprobate
03-02-2009, 21:27
I agree with Dogwood. I was going to try to not deal with mail drops. My vitamins are very heavy and not available from the store. The ones they have in the local stores would not help me a bit. Since I have to send the vitamins I may as well plan for some other items to fill up the boxes.
scientific researchers have been giving vitamin supplements a bad rap lately. Here's a recent New York Times wrap up.
November 20, 2008, 12:45 pm
News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
The best efforts of the scientific community to prove the health benefits of vitamins keep falling short.
Consumers don’t want to give up their vitamins. (Tony Cenicola/The New York Times)This week, researchers reported the disappointing results from a large clinical trial of almost 15,000 male doctors taking vitamins E and C for a decade. The study showed no meaningful effect on cancer rates.
Another recent study found no benefit of vitamins E and C for heart disease.
In October, a major trial studying whether vitamin E and selenium could lower a man’s risk for prostate cancer ended amidst worries that the treatments may do more harm than good.
And recently, doctors at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York warned that vitamin C seems to protect not just healthy cells but cancer cells, too.
Everyone needs vitamins, which are critical for the body. But for most people, the micronutrients we get from foods usually are adequate to prevent vitamin deficiency, which is rare in the United States. That said, some extra vitamins have proven benefits, such as vitamin B12 supplements for the elderly and folic acid for women of child-bearing age. And calcium and vitamin D in women over 65 appear to protect bone health.
But many people gobble down large doses of vitamins believing that they boost the body’s ability to mop up damaging free radicals that lead to cancer and heart disease. In addition to the more recent research, several reports in recent years have challenged the notion that megadoses of vitamins are good for you.
A Johns Hopkins School of Medicine review of 19 vitamin E clinical trials of more than 135,000 people showed high doses of vitamin E (greater than 400 IUs) increased a person’s risk for dying during the study period by 4 percent. Taking vitamin E with other vitamins and minerals resulted in a 6 percent higher risk of dying. Another study of daily vitamin E showed vitamin E takers had a 13 percent higher risk for heart failure.
The Journal of Clinical Oncology published a study of 540 patients with head and neck cancer who were being treated with radiation therapy. Vitamin E reduced side effects, but cancer recurrence rates among the vitamin users were higher, although the increase didn’t reach statistical significance.
A 1994 Finland study of smokers taking 20 milligrams a day of beta carotene showed an 18 percent higher incidence of lung cancer among beta carotene users. In 1996, a study called Caret looked at beta carotene and vitamin A use among smokers and workers exposed to asbestos, but the study was stopped when the vitamin users showed a 28 percent higher risk for lung cancer and a 26 percent higher risk of dying from heart disease.
A 2002 Harvard study of more than 72,000 nurses showed that those who consumed high levels of vitamin A from foods, multivitamins and supplements had a 48 percent higher risk for hip fractures than nurses who had the lowest intake of vitamin A.
The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews looked at vitamin C studies for treating colds. Among more than two dozen studies, there was no overall benefit for preventing colds, although the vitamin was linked with a 50 percent reduction in colds among people who engaged in extreme activities, such as marathon runners, skiers and soldiers, who were exposed to significant cold or physical stress. The data also suggested vitamin C use was linked with less severe and slightly shorter colds.
In October 2004, Copenhagen researchers reviewed seven randomized trials of beta carotene, selenium and vitamins A, C and E (alone or in combination) in colon, esophageal, gastric, pancreatic and liver cancer. The antioxidant users had a 6 percent higher death rate than placebo users.
Two studies presented to the American College of Cardiology in 2006 showed that vitamin B doesn’t prevent heart attacks, leading The New England Journal of Medicine to say that the consistency of the results “leads to the unequivocal conclusion” that the vitamins don’t help patients with established vascular disease.
The British Medical Journal looked at multivitamin use among elderly people for a year but found no difference in infection rates or visits to doctors.
Despite a lack of evidence that vitamins actually work, consumers appear largely unwilling to give them up. Many readers of the Well blog say the problem is not the vitamin but poorly designed studies that use the wrong type of vitamin, setting the vitamin up to fail. Industry groups such as the Council for Responsible Nutrition also say the research isn’t well designed to detect benefits in healthy vitamin users.
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The Vitamin ProblemStudy Finds No Benefit From Daily Multivitamin Disappointing News on Vitamin E and Selenium Vitamin C May Interfere With Cancer TreatmentMultivitamins Linked With Breast Density
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1. November 20, 2008
12:49 pm
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Instead of relying on vitamin supplements, people should focus more on eating well in general.
Maybe one factor that wasn’t studied was that people who take multivitamins think they are allowed to “slack” in other areas of health. They may not eat their veggies or exercise as much. In other words, a feeling of false security due to supplements may encourage risky behavior that results in worse outcomes, as these studies show.
— Shana
2. November 20, 2008
1:19 pm
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Why no significant mention of the one vitamin that does seem (preliminarily I admit) to have a beneficial effect on a variety of disorders? That would be vitamin D.
And to get enough for most of the year, it isn’t even necessary to take supplements. All we have to do is shed our sun phobia.
The post mentions vitamins A, B, C, E, and selenium. It mentions vitamin D only in the context of bone health in older women.
The evidence of the importance of vitamin D in preventing cancers and autoimmune disease is far more powerful than evidence that existed for any of these other vitamins.
In fairness, the NY Times has run several articles in the past few years pertinent to vitamin D research. But in light of how promising this research is, I would have thought that it might bear mentioning in this post.
— WigWag
3. November 20, 2008
1:26 pm
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Much of what is in a vitamin passes thru your system before it can be fully absorbed. You are much better off getting your nutrients from real food as they digest slower and are more easily assimilated by the body.
— nate
4. November 20, 2008
1:27 pm
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If the food we put on our tables weren’t so processed to death we wouldn’t have to worry about vitamins. We evolved from grabbing our food on the run, to settiling down and farming, to this thing we have today that looks to get the most yield, irregardless of quality, and the best bottom line.
And it isn’t cheap to eat healthy anymore, either.
I heard an inner city dweller refer to Whole Foods as
“whole paycheck.”
And have you seen the size of chicken breasts lately?
They’re the size of bicycle seats. What are they feeding them birds, anyway? I don’t want it, that’s for sure.
Maybe they should market that cereal they used in a Saturday Night Live skit many, many years ago. They called it “Colon Blow.”
— merc
5. November 20, 2008
1:28 pm
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One vitamin that seems to be needed in large doses is Vitamin D. Normally, this vitamin is synthesized in the skin when an individual is exposed to sunlight or UV radiation. With the increased use of sunscreens, and with many of us living in Northern Latitudes where there may be a lack of sunlight, especially during the winter months, we are beginning to see a tremendous number of people who are vitamin D deficient, when we actually measure their blood levels.
This has implications in the treatment of osteoporosis, and possibly, although the data is soft at this time in preventing or treating heart disease or cancer. But we know we need adequate Vitamin D levels to maintain normal bone health
We are currently starting to recommend Vitamin D supplementation of 1,000-2,000 IU per day to maintain adequate levels
— Stephen Kamelgarn MD
6. November 20, 2008
1:28 pm
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I am a 59 year old runner. Coenzyme Q10 supplements really saved my running. I am on Statins and my running was failing. I couldn’t run very far before I had to walk. The day after starting 100mg of Q10 my running stamina was greatly improved. I don’t race or time myself anymore but I am running energetically. My plan is to keep running. Gosh, I hope the Q10 doesn’t kill me.
— Kin Folk Said.
7. November 20, 2008
1:28 pm
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The study regarding vitamin C, colds, and marathon running was interesting to me. I take a multivitamin because I exercise a lot and figure I might need a bit more than I can get from food alone. Although it’s hard to say with any statistical precision, I get the sense that I stay healthier (less colds, less musculoskeletal issues) when I am taking a multivitamin. I wonder if there are any other studies relating vitamin use in athletic populations.
-Anne
— Anne
8. November 20, 2008
1:29 pm
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Somehow Americans can never believe that if a little of something is important for your health, more, lots more of it, will not automatically make you a whole LOT healthier. The whole idea of balance, moderation, the right amount of something and no more is simply lacking from our list of the ‘Principles of Reason.’ And in a culture where corporations see a potential for profit in keeping people thinking this way, advertising dollars speak louder than careful scientific studies.
— Ruth
9. November 20, 2008
1:29 pm
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Every time I read these studies I can only imagine that the studies are flawed in themselves. What populations do they use? What doses of vitamins do they try out? Are there longitudinal studies to compare with? And who is running the studies, drug companies? It is all too fuzzy, the NYT reportings and others’ reportings are too filled with holes for such blanket statements that “vitamins don’t work”, and there is an entire American medical establishment out there that knows nothing about herbs/vitamins/other healing methods who are trying to analyze these flawed results probably with unconscious bias.
For those of us who’ve studied the uses of vitamins and herbs for years, and have empirically proven their value in the happy smiles of our children, or the healthy sleep patterns in our partners, or the remediated effects of cancer or neurological diseases in our friends, we *know* the value of the ancient medicines that helped our ancestors survive, thrive, and give birth to us.
— Anne
10. November 20, 2008
1:32 pm
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I’ve never been fond of vitamins anyway. Vitamins are supplements, not the replacements of healthy eating. It’s said that extremes are always dangerous and moderation the key to a long and fruitful life and I think this artcile proves it. Vitamins are like cosmetics, too much hoopla, but not much substance.
— Jorge I. Gomez
11. November 20, 2008
1:33 pm
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Has a study been done showing that people who eat exclusively organic food and live in low pollution areas suffer less cancer rates? It might not be the vitamins that prevent cancer, it might be avoiding the chemicals that cause cancer in the first place. One study I read about showed that children on exclusively organic diets had almost no level of pesticides and other chemicals in their blood and tissues. The study did not follow the children to see if they had lower cancer and disease rates. That’s what we need.
— Healthy
12. November 20, 2008
1:40 pm
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Tara,
I’ve followed you to the NY Times and read
your column with interest still, especially now– since you included all these references to actual studies! Thank you
very much. I did read one of the abstracts.
It really helps.
FROM TPP — Thanks, the great thing about blogging is you can actually provide the links!
— Alexandra Ottaway
13. November 20, 2008
1:41 pm
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If these are studies using USP vitamin supplements then the results make sense to me. USP vitamins are chemicals that the body does not assimilate in the same way that nutrients from food-based sources are.
— selector
14. November 20, 2008
1:43 pm
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Are there any studies of people that just take a normal multivitamin each day of the recommended dosage? That’s the way most of us take them.
Most of the studies you refer to seem to be looking for payback in high doses as ‘treatment’, rather than just ensuring your body has the correct balance of vitamins and minerals each day.
— Sean
15. November 20, 2008
1:44 pm
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I have never in my life taken a vitamin supplement and I never will. People who do so do not understand physiology. That includes all those MD’s and MD-PhD’s who take vitamins.
There is absolutely no need for vitamin or any other supplements. It is a waste of money, and one that can cause you serious illness too.
FDA should ban all vitamin supplements. People in general should stay away from pills as much as they can.
— Frank
16. November 20, 2008
1:44 pm
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simply quoting little snippets about various so-called studies doesn’t provide an argument for or against. who funded the studies - how large and how long and how was the test conducted are the real questions people need answered. i always keep in mind that big pharm makes more money providing scripts for sick people than anything they could provide to keep them healthy.
FROM TPP — I don’t believe any of these studies are funded by industry. Most are by NIH, NCI or other non-industry sources.
— shaman
17. November 20, 2008
1:46 pm
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As a vegetarian, I do try to remember my vitamins, mostly so I’m guaranteed enough B-12, something found in most meats but not in very many vegetable products. A reasonable amount of egg on a frequent basis has enough B12, but I’m better at remembering to take my vitamins every day than remembering when I had eggs and how much.
— Miri
18. November 20, 2008
1:46 pm
Link
“The data also suggested vitamin C use was linked with less severe and slightly shorter colds.”
This to me is more in alignment with what I expect from vitamins, and even these more cynical studies in this article confirm they do support good health. I didn’t know anyone was thinking they’d take vitamin C to cure cancer. Apparently that’s an idea that’s been circulating, but I wouldn’t need a study to tell me that’s unlikely.
All I know is, I feel better when I take vitamins than when I don’t and I definitely seem to fight off looming colds much more successfully. By all accounts I would call that “preventing” colds, because I just get tired and know I’m coming down with something, so load up on the Emergen-C for a day or two, and never wind up with a full blown cold.
That said, one statement in this article surprised me: “A 2002 Harvard study of more than 72,000 nurses showed that those who consumed high levels of vitamin A from foods, multivitamins and supplements had a 48 percent higher risk for hip fractures than nurses who had the lowest intake of vitamin A.”
I’d like to see a study on what is going on with vitamin A that is causing this shocking result. Clearly it is interfering with the absorption or utilization of some other nutrient that is essential for bone health. It would also be extremely helpful to know exactly what dosage constituted the “high levels” of vitamin A consumption among nurses in this study. Without that information it can be very misleading to use such a statistic to try to prove that taking Vitamin A is more likely to harm your health than help it. I’m guessing taking the amounts that most people actually would take would be more helpful than harmful, especially if you are on a low calorie diet and therefore eating less food each day. Those minimum daily requirements are really pretty low, so if you are taking a supplement that delivers those amounts, you’re really just playing it safe with no real downside risk.
— Dutton
19. November 20, 2008
1:48 pm
Link
I read the most recent article about Vitamins C and E. It said nothing about how much the doctors took, on what schedule, with or without food, and so forth. That information is essential to assess the credibility of the study.
Such studies are very often conducted with sub-therapeutic dosages of vitamins, such as 60mg of Vitamin C instead of the multi-gram doses recommended by Linus Pauling and others. When the low doses fail to produce results, the study sponsors announce that “vitamin supplements have been proven valueless.” The study reported in the November 17th falls into that category.
— Miles
20. November 20, 2008
1:52 pm
Link
I’ve also been of the belief, with admittedly no evidence, that maybe, for example, beta carotene needs the other elements of, lets say a carrot in order for the vitamins to work properly. in other words, maybe the fiber in a carrot allows the beta carotene to take a form that is most useful for the body to use that is beneficial.
— nickels flatbag
21. November 20, 2008
1:52 pm
Link
I have seen these negative studies before, but my own experience consistently shows that vitamins help keep inflammations down and keep my skin clear. B5 is a wonder for sexual health and acne. Chromium Picolinate gives a great consistent energy through the day. That’s just the beggining, I’m sure the author has her own similar experiences. Can you discuss anecdotal evidence or studies on individuals sometime?
— David
22. November 20, 2008
1:54 pm
Link
Are these randomized controlled trials? Or are vitamin takers self selected?
My parents eat a terrible diet and are completely sedentary, yet they take vitamins. My wife’s parents are vegetarians who get a lot of exercise but don’t take vitamins. Who do you think is more healthy?
When you describe research like this, you really need to distinguish whether you are talking about randomized, blinded studies or whether you are talking about self-selected subject cohorts.
— pierce moffett
23. November 20, 2008
1:56 pm
Link
I’d be curious to read any recent studies on the use of other compounds, such as creatine and N-acetyl Cysteine (NAC). My therapist has placed me on NAC for combating depression (a few studies have suggested the link).
After a couple of months, it seems to be helping. (I take a teaspoon per day, much more than is suggested for its main selling point as an anti-oxidant). It’s very sulfurous and foul-smelling, but I hide it in a glass of strong OJ.) I understand NAC is a very good antioxidant too, and I credit it for doing away with any mucus problems I had been having.
— Dan
24. November 20, 2008
1:57 pm
Link
Oh yes… Here we go again.
The medical industry, more often than not, conducts these studies using researchers who create a hypothesis (vitamins are useless) and then design the protocols to create “results” that fit their long view. We’ve seen this in cancer research for decades (”Alternative therapies bad; drugs good), when the big money from research is coming from the pharmaceutical companies.
Weren’t there those studies about coffee; oh yes, pancreatic cancer? Then, ooops… another study: coffee is wonderful!
Puhleeeze.
— Bakunin
25. November 20, 2008
1:59 pm
Link
The poverty, and danger, of reductionist science.
— pluto
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If you eat a healthy balanced diet, you shouldn't need supplements.
This should actually be easier to accomplish when hiking,
because we are in more control of what we purchase and consume.
Best to work out what we actually need, then see how much we are already getting, then make adjustments, and then finally, maybe, add some supplements. Most people consider supplements first, which is bass ackwards if you really think about it.
Dental_FlossTycoon
03-03-2009, 13:57
If you eat a healthy balanced diet, you shouldn't need supplements.
This should actually be easier to accomplish when hiking,
because we are in more control of what we purchase and consume.
Best to work out what we actually need, then see how much we are already getting, then make adjustments, and then finally, maybe, add some supplements. Most people consider supplements first, which is bass ackwards if you really think about it.
I agree JAK, but as you know, some folks subsist off of Ramen Noodles, Snickers, Instant Oatmeal, cheese and dried beef sticks, which you immediately wonder what in the world is their body processing for nutrition's sake.
Not that all of those things are bad, hell I eat them all, but I see people make every day out of the same.
On the flip side, I see long distance people taking Six different pills that they don't really know if they need them or not, but "Bee Pollen" and "Rose Hips" are said to be...blah, blah, blah. etc. so they take them when in fact they're just paying for expensive urine. :rolleyes:
Nothing wrong with instant oatmeal. Lots of nutrition in oats.
I would avoid the stuff with all the packaging and extra sugar though.
I just buy plain oats, large flakes, and then add my own stuff as needed.
My hiking diet for 5 days might look something like...
2 pound Oats
1 pound Skim Milk Powder
1 pound raisins or Currants or other dried fruit
0.5 pounds Almonds or Walnuts or other nuts
1 pound Dries Soup Mixes
1 pound Lentils (to add to soup)
0.5 pounds beef jerky
500ml of honey (partly as emergency food)
250ml of olive oil (partly as emergency food/fuel)
also lots of tea, nutmeg, cloves, paprika, and maybe citrus powder
Quite often the healthy food like oats and lentils aren't dense enough to give you the calories you need, so the other stuff helps. My hiking diet is higher in carbs as I lose weight, but would include more fat once I got down to 10% body fat.
Spices and herbs have alot of those vitamins and minerals in them also, and calories also, so they are well worth their weight. They aren't just for flavour. I can also get stuff like vitamin C from bark teas and other stuff found in the woods, which helps keep things interesting. In the above diet my sodium would be covered by the beef jerky, and dried soup mixes, and skim milk powder, so there really wouldn't be any need for sports drinks as such. Sometimes on a short hike I just take oats, without soup or jerky, and then I would need to bring a little salt.
You put up more than even I have patience to read. I've been thinking the same things and two doctors have told me I don't need what I'm taking, but I'm also reading people aren't getting what they need. Who are we to believe?
What I wonder especially is how many men really get the zinc should?
This should actually be easier to accomplish when hiking, because we are in more control of what we purchase and consume.
True there! Through hikers also have the ability to burn more calories than most people. They shouldn't want for vitamins and minerals if they consider carefully what they put into their bodies.
Everyone knows what comes out when garbage goes in.
Who are we to believe? Well, I think we should at least break it down for ourselves, and then decide.
1. First do some research and see what we need.
2. Second, determine what you will be eating each day, and what's already in it.
3. Third, if we still think we aren't getting enough of something, then maybe add it.
You gotta wonder though, if we are doing something as natural as hiking, shouldn't good food be enough?
I think we should first learn what good food is before we worry too much about supplementing it.
I agree. Some wouldn't know good food if they saw it or think there's an easy way around it. As with most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it.
Walk home and do what you have indicated you intend to do. I promise you will be glad you did.:)
I'm not the only one from Pennsylvania's Green Diamond who wants you to succeed. Show us how it's done.
Jan LiteShoe
03-03-2009, 16:02
Spices and herbs have alot of those vitamins and minerals in them also, and calories also, so they are well worth their weight. They aren't just for flavour. I can also get stuff like vitamin C from bark teas and other stuff found in the woods, which helps keep things interesting.
Sorry for the thread drift, but Weary, what sort of bark teas?
I've not heard of this.
I know about pine needle teas, very high in Vitamin C, since we have lots of local pines (Note: NOT yews, which are poisonous look-alikes).
http://www.ehow.com/how_2102192_pine-needle-tea.html
NOT good if you are pregnant though!
We have what you call Northern White Cedar up here. Good source of vitamin C. You are supposed to be able to use the bark, but I just use a few of the leaves, or needles, or whatever you call them on cedar. Yellow Birch (inner bark)makes a really nice wintergreen tea, but I'm not sure about vitamins. Wood sorrel is something else I like to munch on in summer. I've made tea and eaten these things mostly for the flavour, and out of curiousity. I'll see what I can find on nutritional information, and perhaps more formal preparation instructions.
Northern White Cedar ( Thuja Occidentalis )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuja_occidentalis
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Thuja+occidentalis
For vitamin C, tea is made from leaves, but not sure how much.
As an emergency food source, inner bark can be used, but again not sure how much.
Many other uses. Also there are precautions, especially for pregnant women etc.
Edible Uses
Stem; Tea.
Pith of young shoots - cooked[105]. It can be added to soups[177]. Pleasantly sweet, the pith was used as the basis of the soup according to one report[183].
Inner bark - cooked. It is only used in times of emergency or scarcity[213]. The inner bark can be dried and ground into a powder, then used with wheat or other cereals in making bread, biscuits etc.
The leafy branchlets are used as a tea substitute[159, 177, 257] but are probably best avoided by pregnant women[165]. An aromatic flavour[183]. Another report says that the foliage and bark are used, the resulting tea is a good source of vitamin C[226].
Medicinal Uses
Disclaimer
Alterative; Anthelmintic; Antiinflammatory; Antiseptic; Aromatic; Astringent; Diaphoretic; Diuretic; Emmenagogue; Homeopathy; Rubefacient.
American arbor-vitae was much used by many native North American Indian tribes as a medicine to treat fevers, coughs, headaches, swollen hands and rheumatic problems[254, 257]. The plant has an established antiviral activity and is most commonly used in modern herbalism to treat warts and polyps, being prescribed both internally and externally for these conditions[254]. The plant can be used to induce menstruation and so should not be prescribed for pregnant women[238].
The recently dried leafy young twigs are alterative, anthelmintic, anti-inflammatory, antiseptic, aromatic, astringent, diaphoretic, diuretic and emmenagogue[4, 7, 21, 165]. The plant is being used internally in the treatment of cancer[238], especially cancer of the uterus[254]. A tea made from the leaves is used in the treatment for bronchitis and other respiratory problems, colds, headaches and as a cough syrup[222, 254]. The plants diuretic properties make it useful in treating acute cystitis and bed-wetting in children[254]. The leaves are used in steam baths in the treatment of rheumatism, arthritis, colds etc[222]. Externally, the leaves are used as a wash for swollen feet and burns[222]. Extracts of the leaves can be painted on painful joints or muscles as a counter0irritant, improving local blood supply and thus facilitating the removal of toxins, easing pain and stiffness[254]. A tincture of the leaves has been used in the treatment of warts, piles, bed sores and fungal infections[222]. The leaves and young twigs can be harvested as required and used fresh or dried[238].
'Oil of white cedar', obtained from the leaves, is an essential oil that is antiseptic, expectorant and rubefacient[213, 222]. It is used internally to promote menstruation and relieve rheumatism[213]. This volatile oil is toxic and poisoning from overdoses has occurred[213], it should only be used under the supervision of a qualified practitioner and should not be prescribed for pregnant women[238]. The oil also stimulates the heart and causes convulsions in high doses[213].
A tea of the inner bark is used to promote menstruation[213] and in the treatment of consumption and coughs[222].
A homeopathic remedy is made from the leaves and twigs, gathered when the tree is flowering[232]. It is used in the household as a treatment against warts, but also has a range of other applications that should only be prescribed by a competent homeopath[7, 232].
We have what you call Northern White Cedar up here. Good source of vitamin C.
Some call it arborvitae.;)
Too bad; JAK was faster. I had hoped to be 1st to post arborvitae, but I was distracted by a nice lady on my telephone who wanted to talk about Middle Creek (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33534).
Dental_FlossTycoon
03-04-2009, 12:07
Why are you guys in need of Vitamin C in the first place? I guess I don't understand?
Are you deficient in Vitamin C or something? Megadosing or supplements to Vitamin C have shown in study after study to have absolutely no effect on immunity or preventing colds.
If you were vitamin C deficient, then making sure you have enough vitamin C is definitely a good thing for overall health. However, "boosting your immune system" is a claim that doesn't really amount to anything as the immune system isn't a muscle that can just be flexed by taking more vitamin C.
If you are interested head to quackwatch.com and search for vitamin C. Otherwise, Mark Crislip from Quackcast did an excellent podcast on Boosting The Immune System (http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/6319331ae076e5a5967d7d7282813128-21.html).
"A poor diet, with supplements, is still a poor diet".
I wasn't planning on megadosing on vitamin C. Just getting enough.
It prevents scurvy. :)
Paprika is a great source of vitamin C, and vitamin A, and easy to add to soup or rice.
It is also worth its weight in calories, as are many spices. It is a spice you can use alot of also, which makes logisitics simpler, but I wouldn't go higher than 100g in any given day as it has alot of vitamins and minerals that are pretty concentrated. My original point was that if you are eating the right foods and including some spices, you should be getting all you need, but its always fun to check.
100g Paprika
289kcal
Vitamin A 52725 IU
Vitamin C 71mg
lots of other stuff, maybe too much if you like alot of paprika...
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl
middle to middle
03-04-2009, 14:04
I just stopped taking on my hike. No adverse results.
T
I just read "In Defence of Food" by Michael Pollan, which points out the huge difference between nutrients (vitamins) and whole foods. Nutrients mixed from a chemistry set don't have much to recommend them. In fact, plumes of nutients from vitamin pills show up in the chemistry of water bodies surrounding urban areas. Your body simply does not use discrete nutrients the same way that it uses whole foods. It might not even recongnize them as something useful, and they just get passed though the system. Pretty expensive pee!
My suggestion is to carry as close to real food as you can, and then load up on fresh fruits and vegetables when in town. If all you eat is processed food, I don't think that taking vitamins will help you much, and you will go down the road to malnutrition, which might end in weakness, sickness, and injury.
New clinical studies don't support Glucosamine having much effect. I took it for a few years, but am stopping it when my bottles run out.
Sorry to be so negative. My advice is to READ POLLAN on this subject. His books are extremely well researched.
Surplusman
03-16-2009, 16:08
New clinical studies don't support Glucosamine having much effect. I took it for a few years, but am stopping it when my bottles run out.
Studies in three European countries have shown the effectiveness of glucosamine/chondroitin. Read The Arthritis Cure: The Medical Miracle That Can Halt, Reverse, and May Even Cure Osteoarthritis by Jason Theodosakis MD. While in my own case, I'm not looking for a "cure", taking those two supplements in a dosage according to bodyweight, 1/2 in the am and 1/2 in the pm, has made a significant difference in the lessening of pain and an increase of mobility despite osteoarthritis in my finger joints and knees. I took glucosamine, too, for a few years, one tablet in the am, with very little to show for it. I was just as surprised as anyone when about 2 months after taking G/C with the split dosage, things started to get a lot better. And the less I have to take stuff like Aleve, Tylenol, &c, the better . Apparently these compounds (supposedly) tend to dry out your joints. Exactly what you don't want.
Publisher: St. Martin's Press; 1 edition (January 1997)
1997? Oh please. :eek:
You should read clinical studies from 2008 or 2009 and you might change your mind. At least you might be better informed. Good luck.
Read The Arthritis Cure: The Medical Miracle That Can Halt, Reverse, and May Even Cure Osteoarthritis by Jason Theodosakis MD.
Surplusman
03-16-2009, 19:34
Publisher: St. Martin's Press; 1 edition (January 1997)
1997? Oh please. :eek:
You should read clinical studies from 2008 or 2009 and you might change your mind. At least you might be better informed. Good luck.
OK....and I'm not trying to be a smartass here...you tell me what studies I can look at that recommend something other than glucosamine and chondroitin, that I can take, or do, or something, to lessen the effects of osteoarthritis. I've see what it's done to others in my family and I'm going to fight it just as hard as I can. I just don't want to take something that masks the pain, like Tylenol or other "arthritis pain relievers." Besides, since my stroke 2 years ago, I take enough damned pills to fill a shop and kill a village. I do exercises for it every day which were suggested to me and those I'll keep on doing no matter what. I walk, I hike, I bicycle (well, try to) but there's got to be an alternative to G/C. If there is, I'll gladly pitch the G/C in the trash. Point me to some info that gives me some alternatives. Thanks!
Regarding glucosamine, you might check out this new work from late 2008 (sorry to break the news, but save your money):
"A two-year study of how well glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate slow cartilage loss in arthritis patients could not show that the popular nutritional supplements work any better than sugar pills."
Study: Popular supplements ineffective against arthritis - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-09-29-joint-supplements_N.htm?csp=34)
Sorry, I don't know what the alternatives are. You should talk to a medical professional. It's a terrible disease. Best wishes to you.
Rock
People have said the same thing about every supplement. I just know what I know.