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Rockhound
02-21-2009, 21:41
This will only apply to a few hikers (I hope) but it is early in the year and there are already instances of people taking advantage of hostel owners' kindness and generosity. Please realize that nobody gets rich running a hostel. They do it for the love of hikers and the trail. There is no excuse for skipping out on a bill or stealing from a hostel. With the economy the way it is there may be an increase of people hiking on a tight budget. Nothing wrong with that. I've done it myself. But if you plan on supplementing your hike through theft I've got news for you. There is a trail grapevine. You will never make it from GA. to ME or ME to GA. before you find yourself shunned by hostels and your fellow hikers or even taken off the trail in handcuffs.

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2009, 21:48
Are you asking thieves not to steal? Yeah, that'll work.

Deadeye
02-21-2009, 21:48
My guess (and my hope) is that you're preaching to the choir here, and that WBers wouldn't cheat hosteliers.

Jack Tarlin
02-21-2009, 21:49
Good post, Rockhound.

I should add that the same applies to motels, too. These people (the owners) are great friends to hikers, yet every year people actually rip off folks like Ron in Franklin or Brenda in Pearisburg and other people, too. You want to stay in a motel? Then pay for it. Letting your friends sneak in after dark and crash for free isn't cool. It's theft, and the people you're ripping off desrve better.

Jack Tarlin
02-21-2009, 21:59
Actually, John Gault has a point.

Expecting scumbags to stop being scumbags is a tall order.

Which is why hikers have to step in when it comes to other hikers. If you see people (even if they're friends) doing something really wrong, then by all means speak up.

I caught some folks attempting to rip off Ron last year and I tore them a new one.

I assure you it didn't happen again.

Rockhound
02-21-2009, 22:00
My guess (and my hope) is that you're preaching to the choir here, and that WBers wouldn't cheat hosteliers.
For the most part I am preaching to the choir but hopefully if 1 or 2 would be thieves read this they may 1) decide not to hike or 2) get a little character and not steal. A lot to hope for I know.

sheepdog
02-21-2009, 22:04
Are you asking thieves not to steal? Yeah, that'll work.
Won't work for thieves but might for people who get tempted and don't think it through.

Rockhound
02-21-2009, 22:16
Won't work for thieves but might for people who get tempted and don't think it through.
Very true. It wont stop your every day thief but it may deter some of those "honest" thieves.

Tin Man
02-21-2009, 22:17
Thieves are easy to spot. They are the ones with excuses and tall tales of why they can't pay right now. Oh woe is me, boo hoo, etc... makes you wanna cry. :rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
02-22-2009, 07:08
This will only apply to a few hikers (I hope) but it is early in the year and there are already instances of people taking advantage of hostel owners' kindness and generosity. Please realize that nobody gets rich running a hostel.

Keith Shaw made a ton of money. Nobody skipped out on him. he didn't miss a trick. you walked thru his door, you signed a book with your real name, address, home phone, etc. if a hostel owner gets taken it;s their fault

curtisvowen
02-22-2009, 12:07
Keith Shaw made a ton of money. Nobody skipped out on him. he didn't miss a trick. you walked thru his door, you signed a book with your real name, address, home phone, etc. if a hostel owner gets taken it;s their fault
How are supposed to know if that's they're real info, next you'd want Hostel owners to card everyone?
Mr. Shaw had a point though.
Just meet em out in the woods and settle it old school. Alot of road crossings out there and forest service roads for that.

Jeff
02-22-2009, 13:39
ALDHA has organized a yahoogroup of AT Service providers. Every year it gets a little more effective. Believe me, names & stories of the "bad apples" do get shared up and down the trail.

Bearpaw
02-22-2009, 13:41
How are supposed to know if that's they're real info, next you'd want Hostel owners to card everyone?

Carding isn't that extreme an idea. Motels card everyone.

In your case, I know it would be difficult with the way Standing Bear operates, but you could always keep Rockhound busy with checking folks in. ;)

Jack Tarlin
02-22-2009, 13:49
Actually, I like the idea of people posting the names of these folks so everyone knows who they are.

After all, if you're the kind of person who'd rip off Winton Porter or Ron Haven or Miss Janet, then you'd rip off anyone.

If someone screws up that badly that early in the trip, then let people know who they are....end result is these people won't have a place to hang their hat for the next 2000 miles. They'll end up having very solitary trips, and very short ones. They'll be going home early, and nobody else has to deal with them again.

Which is just fine.

yappy
02-22-2009, 13:52
just get your rottie to follow them around...hope you still have dogs ?

Lugnut
02-22-2009, 13:59
Actually, I like the idea of people posting the names of these folks so everyone knows who they are.


Isn't this the same action you so strongly opposed when it concerned Crutch?

Rockhound
02-22-2009, 14:03
Carding isn't that extreme an idea. Motels card everyone.

In your case, I know it would be difficult with the way Standing Bear operates, but you could always keep Rockhound busy with checking folks in. ;)
I know this was sarcastic but somehow I think I'll be walking around with a clipboard this season. As far as the resupply goes, I'd hate to see the honor system go by the wayside but, as is often the case on the trail, a few bad apples can have a negative effect on everyone else. We'll see.

Lone Wolf
02-22-2009, 14:04
collect all fees up front as they arrive. no honor system. otherwise no bitchin'

Bearpaw
02-22-2009, 14:06
I know this was sarcastic but somehow I think I'll be walking around with a clipboard this season. As far as the resupply goes, I'd hate to see the honor system go by the wayside but, as is often the case on the trail, a few bad apples can have a negative effect on everyone else. We'll see.

I agree it would be sad to see the community feeling at SBF go away. It's one of my favorite hostels.

Rockhound
02-22-2009, 14:07
Names of bad apples can travel over 2100 miles in a matter of hours. Those that need to know will.

Tin Man
02-22-2009, 14:07
I know this was sarcastic but somehow I think I'll be walking around with a clipboard this season. As far as the resupply goes, I'd hate to see the honor system go by the wayside but, as is often the case on the trail, a few bad apples can have a negative effect on everyone else. We'll see.

You gotta do what you gotta do. No one should feel put out by it. For better or worse, it is just the nature of things these days.

hikingshoes
02-22-2009, 14:27
Im new to WB but it is sad to know someone would steal from someone helping you out.plus how can you enjoy your hike knowing you hurt or steal from someone that is helping you out.i just dont understand it,but im from the old school.Charles

SGT Rock
02-22-2009, 14:44
I think the problem with posting names is the issues it can create with false accusations. Seems last year Uncle Johnny's got blamed for ripping some girl off and it was a contentious thread (again). Then it turns out that it was one of her hiking partners. The wrong person got the blame and the damage caused to reputations can be an issue.

So my suggestion is maybe a hotel owner e-mail list where everyone in the hostel system participates. Then, say Ron Haven has a scumbag - he can e-mail the rest of the list so Hostels up the trail know to look out for the scumbag. But if it turns out there was a misunderstanding then a new e-mail could go out to all hostel owners. No public forums or message boards where armchair hikers can chime in and beat each other up about the finer points of shelter reservations, hostel etiquette, hiking with dogs, and all other sorts of jackassery that tends to get heaped into these sorts of threads.

Jack Tarlin
02-22-2009, 14:44
Lugnut:

I looked at things differently over the Crutch matter because I was afraid we were dealing with hearsay, rumor, innuendo, whatever.

Subsequent events seem to have proven me wrong there, but at the time, I thought that a lot of the comments directed his way might not have been based on first-hand knowledge of the facts. Therefore, I was inclined to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

What we're talking about here is a totally different thing......if a guy rips off a Trail or Trail town business, and someone from that business who knows the facts and is willing to publicly post something (and bear responsibility for the post), well that's totally different.

In other words, reporting rumors or reporting what you might have heard about an individual is one thing.

To post a comment saying : This guy stayed at my place the following days. This is what he did; this is the story he gave me; this is how he stole from me......well this is entirely different, Lug.

saimyoji
02-22-2009, 14:48
Jackassery....good word.

People will spread rumors, talk smack no matter what; email list or no. The internet does make it easier though.

SGT Rock
02-22-2009, 14:49
Thanks. And by jackassery I did not mean to actually include Jack in that. I think Jack knows this ;)

Jack Tarlin
02-22-2009, 14:54
I think jackassery is great word. :D

And I think Rock's suggestion that Trail service providers keep in touch with each other and give advance notice about potential problems or problem guests is very wise.

Frick Frack
02-22-2009, 15:01
I don't like playing the role of a nark but with all the kindness we received on the trail from most hostels/hotels I felt if I knew of any questionable hikers I was obligated to alert owners of them. We did this on more than one occasion but luckily it was not theives as much as moochers (same in my book). I was impressed that each time the owner was already alerted to the hiker in question. The internet is very helpful but the grapevine of the trail is invaluable.

SGT Rock
02-22-2009, 15:05
I agree - I don't want to be a rat. But, unfortunately, the live-and-let-live mentality of the trail can lead people to try and get away with ripping off service providers and expecting other hikers to stay out of it.

But screwing over the service providers is a bad thing. People like Curtis Owens, Ron Haven, Bob Peoples, Ms Janet, and others go that extra mile to take care of us hikers when the weather is bad, we get into a tight spot, or we need real help. They shouldn't have to worry about hikers ripping them off and everyone covering for them.

TOW
02-22-2009, 15:28
This will only apply to a few hikers (I hope) but it is early in the year and there are already instances of people taking advantage of hostel owners' kindness and generosity. Please realize that nobody gets rich running a hostel. They do it for the love of hikers and the trail. There is no excuse for skipping out on a bill or stealing from a hostel. With the economy the way it is there may be an increase of people hiking on a tight budget. Nothing wrong with that. I've done it myself. But if you plan on supplementing your hike through theft I've got news for you. There is a trail grapevine. You will never make it from GA. to ME or ME to GA. before you find yourself shunned by hostels and your fellow hikers or even taken off the trail in handcuffs.
Good post amd it is true that there is a grapevine here on the trail, so to any of you service providers if you know of any trouble makers on the trail that are heading here I would like to know ahead of time so that I can put the word out to my friends here and other service providers I know........

TOW
02-22-2009, 15:38
I think the problem with posting names is the issues it can create with false accusations. Seems last year Uncle Johnny's got blamed for ripping some girl off and it was a contentious thread (again). Then it turns out that it was one of her hiking partners. The wrong person got the blame and the damage caused to reputations can be an issue.

So my suggestion is maybe a hotel owner e-mail list where everyone in the hostel system participates. Then, say Ron Haven has a scumbag - he can e-mail the rest of the list so Hostels up the trail know to look out for the scumbag. But if it turns out there was a misunderstanding then a new e-mail could go out to all hostel owners. No public forums or message boards where armchair hikers can chime in and beat each other up about the finer points of shelter reservations, hostel etiquette, hiking with dogs, and all other sorts of jackassery that tends to get heaped into these sorts of threads.I agree with this.........




I agree - I don't want to be a rat. But, unfortunately, the live-and-let-live mentality of the trail can lead people to try and get away with ripping off service providers and expecting other hikers to stay out of it.

But screwing over the service providers is a bad thing. People like Curtis Owens, Ron Haven, Bob Peoples, Ms Janet, and others go that extra mile to take care of us hikers when the weather is bad, we get into a tight spot, or we need real help. They shouldn't have to worry about hikers ripping them off and everyone covering for them.
and this........

we are not talking about snitching, we are talking about those of us who provide a service that has gotten stepped on and we don't want to see any of our fellow providers have to go through the same........

freefall
02-22-2009, 15:47
If you see or know of a hiker that is "stealing" from a hostel or breaking the rules, you need to address this.

Rockhound
02-22-2009, 16:02
I think the problem with posting names is the issues it can create with false accusations. Seems last year Uncle Johnny's got blamed for ripping some girl off and it was a contentious thread (again). Then it turns out that it was one of her hiking partners. The wrong person got the blame and the damage caused to reputations can be an issue.

So my suggestion is maybe a hotel owner e-mail list where everyone in the hostel system participates. Then, say Ron Haven has a scumbag - he can e-mail the rest of the list so Hostels up the trail know to look out for the scumbag. But if it turns out there was a misunderstanding then a new e-mail could go out to all hostel owners. No public forums or message boards where armchair hikers can chime in and beat each other up about the finer points of shelter reservations, hostel etiquette, hiking with dogs, and all other sorts of jackassery that tends to get heaped into these sorts of threads.
This is the main reason I did not name names in this thread. There is no reason to name names on a public forum like Whiteblaze . Those that need to know about unsavory characters will be alerted via the grapevine.

Pedaling Fool
02-22-2009, 16:09
Hey Rockhound, which Hostel do you work at? And do you have any idea/guess as to how many hikers that visit your hostel also participate on Whiteblaze?

Skyline
02-22-2009, 16:38
The AT Services List is a cyber-grapevine, and participants are supposed to be only trail service providers whose purpose on the list is to communicate with each other. The good things and the bad things. To be proactive about problem folks on their way to their hostel, motel, shuttle service, etc. And to share particularly good experiences, and effective/efficient business procedures that could benefit others.

What happens on the AT Services List should stay on the AT Services List. It doesn't need to become a 35-page thread on WB, where almost none of the people have first-hand knowledge of whatever incident is being discussed. The non-cyber grapevine will function just fine for the rest of us, as it always has--usually among people actually out hiking.

Rockhound
02-22-2009, 16:39
Complete guess here but I'd have to say about 1000 to 1200 hikers visit Standing Bear each year (not all thru-hikers) and maybe 1/2 to 2/3 have visited WB before arriving here. Again that's a complete guess.

Gaiter
02-22-2009, 16:39
I think the problem with posting names is the issues it can create with false accusations. Seems last year Uncle Johnny's got blamed for ripping some girl off and it was a contentious thread (again). Then it turns out that it was one of her hiking partners. The wrong person got the blame and the damage caused to reputations can be an issue.

So my suggestion is maybe a hotel owner e-mail list where everyone in the hostel system participates. Then, say Ron Haven has a scumbag - he can e-mail the rest of the list so Hostels up the trail know to look out for the scumbag. But if it turns out there was a misunderstanding then a new e-mail could go out to all hostel owners. No public forums or message boards where armchair hikers can chime in and beat each other up about the finer points of shelter reservations, hostel etiquette, hiking with dogs, and all other sorts of jackassery that tends to get heaped into these sorts of threads.

sounds like the e-mail list is in place


ALDHA has organized a yahoogroup of AT Service providers. Every year it gets a little more effective. Believe me, names & stories of the "bad apples" do get shared up and down the trail.

i agree there doesn't need to be names on public forums, keep it private amongst service providers... which will avoid any possibly false accusations from being public... but in extreme cases (i.e. crutch) make it public

theinfamousj
02-22-2009, 17:56
ALDHA has organized a yahoogroup of AT Service providers. Every year it gets a little more effective. Believe me, names & stories of the "bad apples" do get shared up and down the trail.

I'm glad to hear this. That's the sort of information that needs to be shared.

Lemni Skate
05-10-2009, 16:29
if a hostel owner gets taken it's their fault

Really? I mean...really?

If you are ripped off, then I believe it's the thief's fault.

Alaskanhkr23
05-10-2009, 17:38
people steal from hostels?? thats grimmy and horrible

Alaskanhkr23
05-10-2009, 17:39
if i see it,ill blow there cover in a second,and if they gotta problem physically with me i hope they see my 460 on my belt

Alaskanhkr23
05-10-2009, 17:43
actually i dnt bring it anywhere in new england there no point ,but i do have a 16in survival knife for protection

Kanati
05-10-2009, 18:15
This will only apply to a few hikers (I hope) but it is early in the year and there are already instances of people taking advantage of hostel owners' kindness and generosity. Please realize that nobody gets rich running a hostel. They do it for the love of hikers and the trail. There is no excuse for skipping out on a bill or stealing from a hostel. With the economy the way it is there may be an increase of people hiking on a tight budget. Nothing wrong with that. I've done it myself. But if you plan on supplementing your hike through theft I've got news for you. There is a trail grapevine. You will never make it from GA. to ME or ME to GA. before you find yourself shunned by hostels and your fellow hikers or even taken off the trail in handcuffs.

I stayed with you guys at Standing Bear last year and bought pizza's, resupply items, etc and thought how overly trusting you were on the honor system. You can't throw yourself out there and not expect to get taken. It's too much temptation for some of the younger crowd of which many are hiking on meager resources. And yes, unfortunately, some people were simply not brought up to respect other peoples property. In their enviroment its screw or be screwed, and it's the norm for them.

When I was in basic training Jan 1966 we were told to keep our foot and wall lockers locked at ALL times. Not to keep the thieves out, but to keep the honest guys honest. There is lots of truth in that statement.

nufsaid
05-10-2009, 18:31
collect all fees up front as they arrive. no honor system. otherwise no bitchin'

Best post so far.

Lone Wolf
05-10-2009, 20:26
Best post so far.

i'm very smart

The Mechanical Man
05-10-2009, 22:20
ALDHA has organized a yahoogroup of AT Service providers. Every year it gets a little more effective. Believe me, names & stories of the "bad apples" do get shared up and down the trail.


Who would I contact, to get on this list?

Alaskanhkr23
05-10-2009, 22:27
That is deff a good thing right there

Chaco Taco
05-11-2009, 08:22
I know of a WBer that stiffed most of the hostels they came across going NOBO last year. It was a damn shame.

JAK
05-11-2009, 08:37
The bitching is a major turn-off. People that try and skip out on hostels, motels, restaurants, etc. should be discouraged and punished, but I don't really want to hear about it all the time. Let's try and talk more about the good things in life. Some people seem to take great pleasure in calling other people scum bags, and separating the good folks from the bad folks. I don't. Frankly, I don't really like any people, whether they pay their bills or not, so everyone just bugger off. :D

Chaco Taco
05-11-2009, 11:27
The bitching is a major turn-off. People that try and skip out on hostels, motels, restaurants, etc. should be discouraged and punished, but I don't really want to hear about it all the time. Let's try and talk more about the good things in life. Some people seem to take great pleasure in calling other people scum bags, and separating the good folks from the bad folks. I don't. Frankly, I don't really like any people, whether they pay their bills or not, so everyone just bugger off. :D

Well what can we do turn you on??;););)

Kanati
05-11-2009, 13:25
:banana
JA[/B]K;836177]The bitching is a major turn-off. People that try and skip out on hostels, motels, restaurants, etc. should be discouraged and punished, but I don't really want to hear about it all the time. Let's try and talk more about the good things in life. Some people seem to take great pleasure in calling other people scum bags, and separating the good folks from the bad folks. I don't. Frankly, I don't really like any people, whether they pay their bills or not, so everyone just bugger off. :D


I hate acronyms but in this case I wonder if the JA part of the JAK stands for something we're all familiar with. LOL:p

JAK
05-11-2009, 13:27
Well what can we do turn you on??;););)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxa2JehLShU

JAK
05-11-2009, 13:33
... and as if that weren't enough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJpPqbqCv54

Chaco Taco
05-11-2009, 13:46
If you dont have the money to pay for a stay at one of the hostels, ask the caretaker or owner if there is anything you can do to earn your keep.

D'Artagnan
05-11-2009, 14:33
If you dont have the money to pay for a stay at one of the hostels, ask the caretaker or owner if there is anything you can do to earn your keep.

If you don't have the money to pay for a stay in a hostel, you should probably consider getting off the trail. (Considering most of them are less than what most would pay for a good meal.) :-?

yaduck9
05-11-2009, 15:23
This will only apply to a few hikers (I hope) but it is early in the year and there are already instances of people taking advantage of hostel owners' kindness and generosity. Please realize that nobody gets rich running a hostel. They do it for the love of hikers and the trail. There is no excuse for skipping out on a bill or stealing from a hostel. With the economy the way it is there may be an increase of people hiking on a tight budget. Nothing wrong with that. I've done it myself. But if you plan on supplementing your hike through theft I've got news for you. There is a trail grapevine. You will never make it from GA. to ME or ME to GA. before you find yourself shunned by hostels and your fellow hikers or even taken off the trail in handcuffs.


Pay up front for services and then there are no tears from the hostel owners.

All of the unpleasant business part is done at the beginning and not at the end. Eliminates the embarrassment of hikers who can't pay and the usual arguments about if a hiker got his monies worth.

Jeff
05-11-2009, 16:03
The situation up north....95% of the hikers are great, honest and even clean up after themselves. The other 5% you have to babysit.

Chaco Taco
05-11-2009, 16:39
The situation up north....95% of the hikers are great, honest and even clean up after themselves. The other 5% you have to babysit.

Its the other way around down here.

yaduck9
05-11-2009, 20:05
Sounds like south bounders are on the right side of the equation while north bounders......:p

Pokey2006
05-11-2009, 20:10
Sounds like south bounders are on the right side of the equation while north bounders......:p

No, it's because there are bigger crowds down south. Bigger crowds mean more chances for bad encounters. Plus, most of the party crowds goes NOBO and drops out by the time they get up north.

yaduck9
05-11-2009, 20:32
There's a Party Crowd going northbound?

Come on, you have to be pulling my leg!:banana

kayak karl
05-11-2009, 20:55
are Hostels overly trusting, YES. is it their fault they got schnockered, YES.

then i say put more people one the JOB. raise there prices. get the cops involved. maybe even Permits to stay there. tax the hikers. let's go back to big brother era. don't stop their. charge to hike. toll booths on the trail......

The problem is others at the hostel know what is going on and KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT. (some kind of stupid loyalty). they are as much of the problem as the larcenists are.

“One of the chief misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowardly.”
Voltaire ( François Marie Arouet ) 1694-1778, French philosopher, historian, writer

kayak karl
05-11-2009, 21:08
I know of a WBer that stiffed most of the hostels they came across going NOBO last year. It was a damn shame.
its a damn shame you know and didn't say anything.:(

wakapak
05-11-2009, 21:11
its a damn shame you know and didn't say anything.:(

we did say stuff to those who stiffed the hostels. no need for you to jump to conclusions and think things weren't said. remember, you can lead a horse to water but cant make em drink.

kayak karl
05-11-2009, 21:33
we did say stuff to those who stiffed the hostels. no need for you to jump to conclusions and think things weren't said. remember, you can lead a horse to water but cant make em drink.
sorry! (couldn't find an ashamed smiley)

but that said. communication up and down the trail will stop this. i was THERE for the start of this thread and it still sickens me that this happened with a guy i hike with. as a group we need to do MORE TO STOP IT. pass it up or down the trail.

wakapak
05-11-2009, 21:39
sorry! (couldn't find an ashamed smiley)

but that said. communication up and down the trail will stop this. i was THERE for the start of this thread and it still sickens me that this happened with a guy i hike with. as a group we need to do MORE TO STOP IT. pass it up or down the trail.

i agree. in the instance chaco and i are talking about, we didnt learn this individual was stiffing the hostels until up in NH. like i said tho, stuff was said. with some others, when we figured out that they weren't leaving donations and stuff, i offered up other ways of paying back the hostel owners, such as cleaning, cooking for them, etc.

Pokey2006
05-11-2009, 22:50
Unfortunately, some amount of theft is part of the risk of being in business. Retail businesses know to expect a certain percentage of shoplifting. Steps are taken to minimize the losses, but there's always some that slip through the cracks.

If this keeps happening, maybe steps should be taken to minimize (pay up front, for example). I never had any problem paying up front to stay in a hostel or hotel. That should, actually, be the norm.

vonfrick
05-11-2009, 22:55
Keith Shaw made a ton of money. Nobody skipped out on him. he didn't miss a trick. you walked thru his door, you signed a book with your real name, address, home phone, etc. if a hostel owner gets taken it;s their fault

this is still policy at shaw's, but there are still instances when people have taken advantage.

Kanati
05-12-2009, 09:30
this is still policy at shaw's, but there are still instances when people have taken advantage.

...and there always be, because:

1. Nice, helpful people are TOO trusting. They tend to think that
everyone is basically like them, and that if they treat people
nicely, then they will received similar treatment. While basically
this concept is true, some of the time, it will cause you to be
disappointed in people and screwed in the process many more
times. This is why Curtiss may have more incidents than Shaw
did, but I bet happened to him more often than he knew.

2. Crooks are looking for an easy victim.


A quick story to make a point. This past Sunday night, Janice and I went to one of our favorite restaurants, Hagy's Catfish Hotel on the Tennessee river at the north end of Shiloh NMP. When we left we noticed there were no mints. Normally they have a dish filled with the nice chocalate covered mints that restaurants normally sell for about 15-25 cents. The Catfish doesn't charge for them. You just pick up a couple while you are paying your bill. Sunday night the dish was empty. First time I recall seeing it empty since we started eating their in 1969, (40 years). I commented to the lady behind the counter and she said....."there's a lady here now who takes double hands full and puts them in the purse, so we empty the dish before she comes out or she will".

Now that's what I call cheap, and everyone almost dislikes a cheap person.

JAK
05-12-2009, 09:39
Not everyone likes cheap people. Frugality is still a virtue in my books.

Understandably, merchants dislike cheap people, but don't always mind being cheap themselves. That's just called running a business as it should be run. So why can't regular folks these days be frugal in their lives, just like they were running a business? Why are consumers these days expected to be bad business people?

I think the economy has strayed to far from frugality and efficiency, and not we have to fix it. We need more cheap people.

JAK
05-12-2009, 09:39
I guess I meant to say that not everyone dislikes cheap people.

JAK
05-12-2009, 09:43
I don't think we should call people 'crooks' just because they take advantage of people.
There is a difference between being a crook and taking advantage of a fool.
I really don't think people should do either, but I don't think the too are the same.

If they were the same thing, then we would have to call 99.9% of business people crooks, because most consumers these days are fools.

JAK
05-12-2009, 09:44
So why the double standard between consumers and businesses? Good question eh?

Dogwood
05-12-2009, 15:06
If an AT hiker can afford to hike, buy gear, carry a little bag of green "stuff", buy booze, or go to a buffet they can surely find a way to drop, at the very least, $10 into a donation box. COME ON! Hostel owners and trail angels are not getting rich helping you out. These people do it because they love the trail and hikers. Show a little love back. Despite what some may expect NO ONE out on the trail owes you anything. Let people know you appreciate their kindness and generosity. $10 or $20 barely covers the cost of a hiker's stay. If you can't afford to do this stay the f#@! home. You know who you all are!

JAK
05-12-2009, 16:00
I think $10 or $20 for a hostel stay is a sweat deal.
I'm a cheap bastard, but at that price I would stay there twice in the same night.

JAK
05-12-2009, 16:03
Sorry, I meant sweet deal. I gotta spell check, or get a membership. lol
No seriously I oughta get a membership. Let me get through this dang thesis first.

Jack Tarlin
05-13-2009, 14:31
The problem is a lot worse than you guys can possibly imagine..

Half the people staying at Kincora for Chrissake don't leave a cent and anyone who would rip off Bob Peoples is lower than a pregnant cockroach.

It's really a wonder that these places stay open.

Sly
05-13-2009, 14:53
If this keeps happening, maybe steps should be taken to minimize (pay up front, for example). I never had any problem paying up front to stay in a hostel or hotel. That should, actually, be the norm.

It is the norm to pay up front in a hotel or motel and should be in a hostel.

Kanati
05-13-2009, 21:39
I guess I meant to say that not everyone dislikes cheap people.

There is a big difference between frugality, conservative, good management, stingy, and cheap.

Here is the correct difinition of cheap. You decide if you like cheap people. I do not. I would rather deal with an out and out thief than a damn cheap person.

Cheap (definition); Anyone who is able to pay there own way but chooses to let others do it for them.

Bearpaw
05-14-2009, 14:18
The problem is a lot worse than you guys can possibly imagine..

Half the people staying at Kincora for Chrissake don't leave a cent and anyone who would rip off Bob Peoples is lower than a pregnant cockroach.

It's really a wonder that these places stay open.

The service he provides is worth WAY more than $4, so I leave more.

It really is mind-boggling someone would skip out on $4 for Kincora or $3 for the Place. I know Bob says he only charges what it costs him on average for the service he provides, but that means just breaking even, and doing all the shuttling and hosting for free. Hopefully, he doesn't actually lose money in the long run.

JAK
05-14-2009, 15:55
That is mind boggling. I've been called cheap for not staying in a motel, and for packing food to avoid meals out, and I don't mind that; but someone that stays and doesn't pay gives being cheap a bad name. Skipping out on a $3 stay even gives theft a bad name. Cheap as I am, I would go out of my way to try any hostel for $3 or $4, and maybe take Bearpaws lead, and pay to stay 2 or 3 times on the same night. ;) As much as I enjoy sleeping on the trail, on a long trip its nice to add some variety, and $10 or $20 for a hostel stay is a pretty sweet deal, especially if the place has some character as I'm sure they all do.

I do think there is often a double standard these days, where consumers are actually expected to be somewhat reckless in their spending, whereas business people are permitted to be more frugal, even cheap, but I think from what Jack says none of that applies here. Its sounds like the trail is very accommodating to frugal travellers, even cheap travellers, as long as we are all honest and thoughtful. Part of the reason I like to be cheap most of the time is because it allows me to be generous some of the time.
Mostly though, I'm just cheap. ;) but I do try to be honest. :)

JAK
05-14-2009, 16:02
I think the best argument for being frugal most of the time, is that it gives us the freedom to be honest all of the time, and to be generous some of the time, where we feel it is most needed or deserved. The essential part of discretionary spending should be the discretion, not the spending. ;)

sylvia_claire
05-14-2009, 17:08
Wait, help me understand this, some hostels have a donation box and not a set fee? is this a widespread practice?

and how do you know that people aren't putting in? are they bragging about it?

(yes, yes I never hiked more than 2 consecutive nights and therefore never been to a hostel)

-sylvia

JAK
05-14-2009, 17:21
Here is one list Sylvia. There may be better ones, and more up to date one. Don't know.
But it gives you an idea...
http://www.unclejohnnys.net/hostels.html

Kanati
05-14-2009, 17:23
That is mind boggling. I've been called cheap for not staying in a motel, and for packing food to avoid meals out, and I don't mind that; but someone that stays and doesn't pay gives being cheap a bad name. Skipping out on a $3 stay even gives theft a bad name. Cheap as I am, I would go out of my way to try any hostel for $3 or $4, and maybe take Bearpaws lead, and pay to stay 2 or 3 times on the same night. ;) As much as I enjoy sleeping on the trail, on a long trip its nice to add some variety, and $10 or $20 for a hostel stay is a pretty sweet deal, especially if the place has some character as I'm sure they all do.

I do think there is often a double standard these days, where consumers are actually expected to be somewhat reckless in their spending, whereas business people are permitted to be more frugal, even cheap, but I think from what Jack says none of that applies here. Its sounds like the trail is very accommodating to frugal travellers, even cheap travellers, as long as we are all honest and thoughtful. Part of the reason I like to be cheap most of the time is because it allows me to be generous some of the time.
Mostly though, I'm just cheap. ;) but I do try to be honest. :)

These two are not synonomous. A cheap person is not an honest person. Perhaps what you are is conservative and a good manager of your resources.

A cheap person is a decietful, schemeing, thieving, betraying, lying, dishonest, scumbag and the worst form of human life outside of swindlers, perverts and murderers. Because they try to make you think they are your friend, comrade, bosom buddy, and all they time they are getting into your wallet and the wallet of people who probably cannot afford to carry them. They are always sucking up to somebody to get something for free. And if you need them for something, you can't find them. And when you stop supporting them, they try to make you feel guilty and go around spreading lies about you.

I hate getting on my soap box. I think I'll go for a walk.

ed bell
05-14-2009, 19:59
These two are not synonomous. A cheap person is not an honest person. Perhaps what you are is conservative and a good manager of your resources.

A cheap person is a decietful, schemeing, thieving, betraying, lying, dishonest, scumbag and the worst form of human life outside of swindlers, perverts and murderers. Because they try to make you think they are your friend, comrade, bosom buddy, and all they time they are getting into your wallet and the wallet of people who probably cannot afford to carry them. They are always sucking up to somebody to get something for free. And if you need them for something, you can't find them. And when you stop supporting them, they try to make you feel guilty and go around spreading lies about you.

I hate getting on my soap box. I think I'll go for a walk. Your description is much more in line with a "moocher" or "con artist". The adjective "cheap" is not usually used as a compliment, but it isn't synonymous with dishonest. I think JAK probably ought to have used the word "thrifty". :sun

Heater
05-14-2009, 20:21
The problem is a lot worse than you guys can possibly imagine..

Half the people staying at Kincora for Chrissake don't leave a cent and anyone who would rip off Bob Peoples is lower than a pregnant cockroach.

It's really a wonder that these places stay open.

How long were you there?

Kanati
05-14-2009, 20:24
Your description is much more in line with a "moocher" or "con artist". The adjective "cheap" is not usually used as a compliment, but it isn't synonymous with dishonest. I think JAK probably ought to have used the word "thrifty". :sun

Yep, thrifty is a good thing so long as you're only penalizing yourself.

Maybe I'm too hard on them, but I've been victimized so many times by freeloaders and then have them turn on me when I pulled away the funds that I guess I've become hard. Just an opinion but many of the "cheap-scapes" I've know are devious liars and that is synonomous with dishonest.

kayak karl
05-14-2009, 20:48
How long were you there?
Jack's right. Bob is a GREAT person and people take advantage of him, but he smiles and goes on for the rest of use. and thats not easy for him.

ed bell
05-14-2009, 22:49
Yep, thrifty is a good thing so long as you're only penalizing yourself.

Great point. "Cheap" absolutely has an impact on others, while "thrifty" tends to be more like strict financial discipline.

kayak karl
05-15-2009, 06:20
Great point. "Cheap" absolutely has an impact on others, while "thrifty" tends to be more like strict financial discipline.
on the job we use the term broke a$$, not "cheap" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=broke%20ass&page=2 def #8, but others fit also. frugal or thrifty is the guy that brings lunch and buys clothes at salvation army.

JAK
05-15-2009, 07:50
These two are not synonomous. A cheap person is not an honest person. Perhaps what you are is conservative and a good manager of your resources.

A cheap person is a decietful, schemeing, thieving, betraying, lying, dishonest, scumbag and the worst form of human life outside of swindlers, perverts and murderers. Because they try to make you think they are your friend, comrade, bosom buddy, and all they time they are getting into your wallet and the wallet of people who probably cannot afford to carry them. They are always sucking up to somebody to get something for free. And if you need them for something, you can't find them. And when you stop supporting them, they try to make you feel guilty and go around spreading lies about you.

I hate getting on my soap box. I think I'll go for a walk.I think we are arguing about two different definitions of the word cheap.

We don't use the word 'cheap' that way up here. Interesting.

Jack Tarlin
05-15-2009, 08:00
Austex and others who asked:

I was there helping Bob for over two weeks recently, and this was the two busiest weeks of the hiking year.

You'd be amazed how many times hikers "forgot" to leave anything for their stay.

Funny thing, tho. I ran into some of these folks in Damascus just yesterday, and they seemed to have plenty of money for beer.

Imagine that.

Must've got checks in the mail or something. :rolleyes:

JAK
05-15-2009, 08:01
So here we are, two people separated by a common language. lol

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheap[2]
Main Entry: cheap
Function: adjective
Date: 1509
1
a: purchasable below the going price or the real value
b: charging or obtainable at a low price <a good cheap hotel> <cheap tickets>
c: depreciated in value (as by currency inflation) <cheap dollars>
2
gained or done with little effort <a cheap victory> <talk is cheap>
3
a: of inferior quality or worth : tawdry, sleazy <cheap workmanship>
b: contemptible because of lack of any fine, lofty, or redeeming qualities <feeling cheap>
c: stingy <my cheap uncle>
4
of money : obtainable at a low rate of interest


So I think the two different meanings are 3b, and 3c.
- A cheap person, can mean 3b, where the person themself is of inferior value, like a thief.
- Or a person that is merely stingy, but not dishonest.

Up here cheap refering to a person is often used as somewhat of a compliment, being a way of exaggerating the fact that someone is extremely thrifty. Depends on how it is said. If someone is cheap all the time, is never generous even when they could be, then we might say 'cheap bastard' which definitely means stingy in a negative way. it doesn't mean dishonest though. We just don't use it that way.

JAK
05-15-2009, 08:13
Another interesting difference is that people here often prefer to describe themselves as cheap rather than frugal or thrifty because cheap is being a little more modest than calling yourself frugal or thrifty. One might even call oneself or a friend 'a cheap bastard' but in that sense it means frugal, not stingy. Its a fine line. We don't use it to mean dishonest though. We just don't. That's why I was somewhat confused, and perhaps confusing.

I'm still not entirely sure. Sometimes people mix cheap with dishonest in order to shame people into being less frugal. I think there might be a little of that going on here. It's not clear.

Let me try and be clear:
If people decide not to stay at a hostel for $10 or $20, they are being frugal, that's all.
If people decide not to stay at a hostel for $3, they are being frugal, perhaps even stingy, perhaps even stupid, or maybe they just like the woods, but they are not dishonest.

Now if people stay and skip out on a contractual obligation they are being dishonest. Period.
If they stay were a place accepts donations, and they don't leave any even if they able, I would call that stingy, but technically not dishonest.

JAK
05-15-2009, 08:19
So which is it at Bob People's place?

Are donations voluntary, or is there a fixed minimum price which people are expected to pay on an honour system. If people skip out on an honour system, that is certainly contemptible. That is theft, and deceit.

So are we all in agreement now?

Don't try and shame people into spending money they don't have to, because that is also contemptible. Thrift is a virtue.

JAK
05-15-2009, 08:31
If this list is correct, Bob People's place is $4.50, and people are obligated to pay it.
It is a real shame if people don't pay $4.50, unless they work something out with him of course.

Might be incorrect or out of date...
http://www.unclejohnnys.net/hostels.html
but the only places on the list where payment is by voluntary donation are the following:

Troutdale Baptist Church Troutdale,VA. donations
Woods Hole Sugar Run Gap - VA donations
Holy Family Hostel Pearisburg, VA donations
4 Pines Hostel Va. 624-VA donations
Rusty's Hard Time Hostel Lyndhurst,VA donation
Eckville Hikers Center Hawk Mtn. Rd. free
Presbyterian Church of the Mtn. DWG,PA donation
Upper Goose Pond Cabin Upper Goose Pond, Ma. donations
Thomas Levardi 83 Depot St Dalton, Ma. donations

If this thread is about etiquite, it might be about how much people might suggest we leave at the places listed above, if we are able. The other places, people need to pay, otherwise they are being dishonest, and thrift or lack of etiquite have nothing to do with it.

So how much do people usually leave at the places where donations are voluntary, or stay is free?

JAK
05-15-2009, 08:33
Might I suggest a $5 minimum, and always leave the place better than you found it?

JAK
05-15-2009, 09:05
I have to say though that I can understand Jack's frustration. If Jack and others say there is a problem, there is a problem, so we should spread the word and fix it. People have different ways of going about it. Carrot and stick approach often works best. The stick seems to get used alot. I might suggest a carrot to go along with it.

For the carrot, I would try encouraging people to be thrifty more often, in order to have the freedom to always be honourable. My mother always said if you are going to steal, steal a million dollars, because the guilt is the same either way. Skipping out on $4.50 for a night's stay just isn't cool. Save your money where ever you can, so you can always pay your bills, and leave a decent donation with the free or donation hostels also.

That might be a way to persuade people on the trail to do the right thing and feel good about it. Just an idea.

the goat
05-15-2009, 09:14
JAK-
you've got the last 6 posts in this thread, have you considered post consolidation? it kind of kills a "discussion" when one person takes it over. just a thought......

JAK
05-15-2009, 09:21
Also, if you are foolish enough to get 'taken' somewhere along the way, with something costing alot more than you expected, don't take it out on the next waitress by not tipping her. Same sort of idea. It's not her fault if you weren't as careful as you should have been. Be frugal so that you can pay people for goods and services that deserve it the most, which most often are the regular folks like you and me. Be frugal, or as I would say, 'a cheap bastard', in order to be honourable. Avoid the more expensive places if and when you have to, so you can always be a gentleman in the quiet little places along the way. If you ever need to leave the trail, do it with dignity. :)

JAK
05-15-2009, 09:22
JAK-
you've got the last 6 posts in this thread, have you considered post consolidation? it kind of kills a "discussion" when one person takes it over. just a thought......Ok. I think I'm done my musings.
I've been having a pretty civil discussion with myself though. :)

The Weasel
05-15-2009, 09:42
.*** Be frugal so that you can pay people for goods and services that deserve it the most, which most often are the regular folks like you and me. ***:)

JAK's good advice reminds me to comment on motel stays too: PLEASE leave $1 or so per person per night stayed on the desk of your motel room for the housekeeper/cleaning staff. Especially since hikers leave a room pretty dirty, the cleaning staff have hard work for very, very low pay. You may never see them again, but you will be helping people who deserve it.

TW

John B
05-15-2009, 10:15
That is mind boggling. I've been called cheap for not staying in a motel, and for packing food to avoid meals out, and I don't mind that; but someone that stays and doesn't pay gives being cheap a bad name. ...

Part of the reason I like to be cheap most of the time is because it allows me to be generous some of the time.
Mostly though, I'm just cheap. ;) but I do try to be honest. :)

Ahem... maybe after 6,500 posts, you might consider becoming a donating member to WhiteBlaze? :-?

Just a thought.

JAK
05-15-2009, 10:20
It has occured to me more than once.

Kanati
05-15-2009, 12:37
JAK-
you've got the last 6 posts in this thread, have you considered post consolidation? it kind of kills a "discussion" when one person takes it over. just a thought......

JAK has said so much that I am lost. I don't remember what the discussion was. But I think it was about someone trying to justify negotiating a lower price to stay overnight at a hostel, do your laundry, take a hot shower where they furnish the soap and only want to charge you $5.00. That is a cheap person, a scumbag, a low life in my opinion and someone whom's company I never ever wish to share.

That's my last word to say or read on this thread. My wife just called. She's getting off at noon and wants to go hiking this afternoon with the dog and I. I'm out of here.

Will someone please shut this thread down !!!

JAK
05-15-2009, 12:40
LOL
Very funny Kanati. Have a great hike with your dog. I am heading out now also.
Cheers

The Weasel
05-15-2009, 12:50
JAK has said so much that I am lost. I don't remember what the discussion was. But I think it was about someone trying to justify negotiating a lower price to stay overnight at a hostel, do your laundry, take a hot shower where they furnish the soap and only want to charge you $5.00. That is a cheap person, a scumbag, a low life in my opinion and someone whom's company I never ever wish to share.

That's my last word to say or read on this thread. My wife just called. She's getting off at noon and wants to go hiking this afternoon with the dog and I. I'm out of here.

Will someone please shut this thread down !!!

When you get back from your hike, drop by my office. You can hire me at the rate that I think is fair, and if you don't like those fees and either try to negotiate them down or not hire me at all, I'll give you a copy of your post above. :eek:

Glad you can afford to pay full price. The airlines must love you. :D

TW

JAK
05-15-2009, 12:57
Thanks TW, but your not helping, so I won't be sending you any money this time. lmao
For the record I didn't suggest people negotiate down from a $5 hostel stay. lol

Everyone get out and have a great hike this weekend, especially those at Trail Days, or paying the full wopping $4.50 or whatever it is to stay at Bob's. Cheer out.

The Weasel
05-15-2009, 15:21
Not looking for money from you, JAK; you're frugal. But I live for people who say, "Everyone should pay full rate." There aren't enough of them; perhaps they can't breed true. Dunno. :-?

TW

MOWGLI
05-15-2009, 16:01
I stayed at a hostel recently (shall remain unnamed) and some bonehead hiker stayed up drinking and running his drunken mouth until 3 AM - 15' from the bunkhouse. I blame the hiker - as much as I blame the hostel owner. I was tempted to get up and tell him to shut the blank up, but I wasn't interested in a confrontation. And that's what it would have become.

LTHotSauce
05-15-2009, 17:04
Should have asked him to do shots till he passed out. Then, be really loud early in the morning.

Kanati
05-15-2009, 22:00
I said I wasn't going to read or write anymore on this thread but I did. Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh !!! I hate myself for being so weak !!!!!!!

Our hike was great. We spent the afternoon at Shiloh NMP. Lot of people watching a pair of nesting bald eagles. They have two very large chicks.

JAK
05-16-2009, 09:14
I said I wasn't going to read or write anymore on this thread but I did. Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh !!! I hate myself for being so weak !!!!!!!

Our hike was great. We spent the afternoon at Shiloh NMP. Lot of people watching a pair of nesting bald eagles. They have two very large chicks.Awesome. My wife and I took my daughter and her two friends to Irving Nature park. My wife walked the loop while I took the girls down to the beach at the seal look out. When we got back up we saw a fox, that wasn't at all shy. It chased a squirrel and missed. Then just as I was saying foxes would have to be very fast to catch a squirrel it went off the other way and came back with another in his mouth. It put that down while unsuccessfully trying for another up under the roof of a picnic table. Then the fox trotted off with the dead squirrel in its mouth, heading back to its den full of hungry mouths maybe. Way cool. The girls were not as freaked out as I thought they would be. I suppose it helped that the squirrel was dead and not squealing. I didn't hear the kill either, so they must kill it quickly in their jaws right away and not mess around like a fat cat might. The fox was pretty lean and mangy looking, but it must have been healthy to catch a squirrel. just shedding its winter coat maybe. Short hike, but a good one.