The business of poo

[BipolarStroller]

Not that it’s even an issue for us anymore, but with having a baby and wanting to take her on backpacking trips brings up the “poo” thing. Another hiking mother explained how they would wash cloth diapers in a Ziploc baggie and air dry instead of using commercial diapers and having to pack out the extra pounds of wet and oiled diaper. The Ziploc baggie did not appeal to me and I worried about cross contamination. Then someone told me about G-diaper, sold online and also at local co-op's like open harvest and Atkins, kind of expensive but 100% biodegradable. Made from tree fluff pulp stuff and compost completely in 50-150 days, even advertised as “flushable” and recommended for home compost heaps, they are Earth friendly. So I mentioned them in a women’s hiking forum and had a lady jump my case about Leave no Trace, telling me that it is unacceptable to bury the diaper. I assured her that I would never bury a commercial diaper, that I pack out our used “john wayne paper” along with all of our trash, but she came back at me again all snotty about it. I wrote to the “Leave No Trace” organization and asked them if I was breaking the rules, by leaving behind a completely biodegradable dirty diaper in the cat hole I dug for my poo. I have yet to hear back from them, and I’m sure that I am probably in the wrong~but I just wanted the parents out there to know that there is a completely biodegradable diaper on the market and by using them, they’re reducing their impact on the environment, whether you take them hiking with you is all on you though.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Perhaps some maintainers or those with privy expertise could help you out here as well. If the material is okay in a privy you would have an easy disposal method along much of the AT.

[Fiddleback]

All things are biodegradeable given enough time. The keys are how much time and the level and breadth of the 'pollution'. Perhaps one diaper in one cat hole is tolerable, perhaps not. But at some point there can be too many cat holes...too many traces of toilet paper...too many diapers...too much poo.
( http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16826&page=5 , post #83)

Many, like BipolarStroller, try to minimize their impact. Many more don't. But in the end it comes down to where each of us draws the line at what is, and what isn't, acceptable. I like the one's that try to minimize their impact.:)

FB

[hoz]

As long as you KNOW it's biodegradable and bury it well off the trail I don't see anything wrong.

Some people get all twisted in the rhetoric.

[emerald]

Perhaps some maintainers or those with privy expertise could help you out here as well. If the material is okay in a privy you would have an easy disposal method along much of the AT.

Put nothing in a composting or mouldering privy unless you've been told by the person who maintains it the material is acceptable. I've asked BMECC's head honey dipper to comment.

[shelterbuilder]

Put nothing in a composting or mouldering privy unless you've been told by the person who maintains it the material is acceptable. I've asked BMECC's head honey dipper to comment.

AH, YA JUST GOTTA LOVE MODERN TECHNOLOGY!!!

This is the first time that I've ever heard of a 100% biodegradable diaper. So, of course, since I have no practical knowledge of how they biodegrade, I can't really comment on them from any position of authority.

There are some types of plastic that are engineered with fragments of - I believe - corn starch mixed into the polymer chains, and these fragments will break down, leaving you with shorter chains of plastic, but it's still plastic. Generally speaking, plastic will not compost/biodegrade, and has to be picked out of the composter by the operator at the end of the compost-cycle. This is why composter operators get so angry when they find Zip-loc bags, candy or granola wrappers, tampons and/or sanitary napkins, etc., in the toilets - the stuff just doesn't break down. So, please, PLEASE, carry an extra leak-proof plastic bag (or two or three) with you and carry that stuff back out with you...it makes a disagreeable, unpaid job just a little bit easier for the volunteer who runs the toilet.

Thanks.:D

[hoz]

Did anyone read the OP? She is asking about the gDiaper. It is 100% biodegradable, made from all natural fibers.

From gDiaper site:

"gDiapers loves the Earth.

For the last 40 years there have been but two choices in diapers. Cloth or disposable. That’s it. Now gDiapers offers a third option. Flushable. gDiapers puts waste where it belongs, in the toilet. Not the landfill.

gDiapers have no elemental chlorine, no perfumes, no smell, no garbage and no guilt. In fact, our flushable diapers are so gentle on the Earth you can even garden compost the wet ones in one compost cycle, approximately 50 – 150 days. "

http://www.gdiapers.com/

[Desert Reprobate]

Just bury one in the yard. Come back in a couple of months and see how it is doing.

[hoz]

They already did that. On the gdiaper site there is a vidoe of two "disposable" diapers and one gdiaper in a compost pile. G broke down in 60-90 days while the "disposables" didn't move at all.

[shelterbuilder]

hoz,

thanks for the link - you learn something new everyday!

Based on my training with composters, I would say that, while the g-Diaper will probably disintegrate, I still don't feel comfortable with the presence of the SAP's (super absorbing poly-acrylates). Composter or cat-hole, the end-result will be the same: the SAPs (a polymer with a presumably long half-life) will end up in the environment along the trail. I suspect that the NPS and the ATC will not look kindly upon this addition to the trail's eco-system.

Please understand, I'm NOT a chemist and have NO practical experience with SAPs - this is just my humble opinion.

[Feral Bill]

I expect that in many places animals would quickly dig up the diaper and drag it who knows where. :eek: Not a pleasant prospect.

[CrumbSnatcher]

my girlfriend BIPOLAR STOLLER has nothing but respect for LNT and the enviroment. we recycle everything. and she values alot of the peoples opionion who post on WB. i GOT HER HOOKED ON hiking/backpacking and she just wants to do the right thing!

[CrumbSnatcher]

I expect that in many places animals would quickly dig up the diaper and drag it who knows where. :eek: Not a pleasant prospect.
do you pack out your toilet paper,if not same problem then? whats the difference? if were going to the trouble to bring the g-diper, then i think i can dig a proper hole also. nothing is 100% though i understand where your coming from FERAL BILL

[Vagrant Squirrel]

But at some point there can be too many cat holes...too many traces of toilet paper...too many diapers...too much poo.


"All around us, as far as the eye could see, the trail had become encroached by piles of poo..."

Scary thought indeed. Plus they'd have to change the name from "the long green tunnel" to "the long brown tunnel."

On a more serious note, do a lot of people thru-hike the AT with infants on board?

[vamelungeon]

"All around us, as far as the eye could see, the trail had become encroached by piles of poo..."

Scary thought indeed. Plus they'd have to change the name from "the long green tunnel" to "the long brown tunnel."

On a more serious note, do a lot of people thru-hike the AT with infants on board?
Good question.
As a parent/grandparent I wouldn't but I guess it's a personal choice. If you stay at/near shelters, is your baby going to cry when others are sleeping? What about when it rains? What about taking a fall (not an uncommon occurrence) while carrying the baby? I'm not being critical, I really don't know how you handle these situations.

[Pokey2006]

Oh, no, please don't bury diapers in the woods! I say the same thing about toilet paper -- PACK IT OUT! It might be biodegradable, but animals will often dig it up before it decays. I can't tell you how many times I've come across bits of toilet paper way out in the woods that were clearly buried and then dug up by animals.

Going way off the trail is no good, either. Some hikers like to bushwack, or stealth camp way off trail, and would not appreciate coming across someone's dug up dirty diaper.

I'm glad this person asked the question and is trying to do the responsible thing. If she's still monitoring the thread, I'd tell her to please, please, please pack out ALL of her garbage, including anything that's biodegradable. Just because it's biodegradable doesn't mean it's good for the wilderness.

But, hey, go ahead and use the biodegradable diapers as often as you can afford to. They're probably better for the landfills than traditional disposable diapers.

[Trailbender]

Toilet paper, I use as little as I can, then put it in a cathole and stick a bic to it, has always worked for me.

[berninbush]

[quote=Pokey2006;812341]please, please, please pack out ALL of her garbage, including anything that's biodegradable. Just because it's biodegradable doesn't mean it's good for the wilderness.[quote]Not to pick on anyone, but this is a classic example of my problem with the whole "leave no trace" thing.

People seem to be confused about the difference between genuinely harming the wilderness, or simply encroaching on someone's aesthetic experience of the wilderness. A piece of plain white paper on the ground does absolutely no harm to the natural environment. It's made of cellulose, just like all the trees and twigs on the ground, and it will return to a state similar to theirs very quickly. It's not like a piece of plastic, that will lie there for years unchanged and possibly present a choking/ poisoning danger to wildlife.

But of course if you're hiking in "pristine" wilderness, you don't want to see a piece of paper lying on the ground. Other hikers are within their rights to complain if you just leave it lying there. That's still not the same as being "bad for the environment."

At the risk of being jumped on, I think biodegradable diapers are a great idea and a good solution for parents who want to hike with an infant. As others have said, it's no worse than the majority of us who find it "normal" to bury toilet paper rather than packing it out. For those who complain about animals leaving it lying around... animals leave a lot of unsightly things lying around, including unburied piles of their own poo and half-eaten carcasses. It's just part of the woods experience.

[Scrapes]

Who did the study that animals dig up human feces or the related toilet paper? This is always stated but how do we know, perhaps it is just a crappily dug hole or some newb that doesn't know any better. I'm figuring there is some assumptions taken here.

[BipolarStroller]

Thanks for the feedback, thanks for actually checking out the link, without viewing it, I'm sure that a biodegradeable diaper has got to be a hoax, but I used it, I wish all parents would use them instead of the traditional huggies or pampers, because on the trail or in your community, they are BAD for the environment. I was just trying to lessen MY families impact. For once we have a choice, and now some of yall know.

Now, don't freak out, I'm not dragging my screaming and crying children out to ruin your thru/section/weekend hike, at least not yet. But when we did take our baby, when she was a baby, and she never cried once, we are very tuned in to her needs and even though it's challenging, me and Crumb work well as a team. We prefer to tent, and we for the most part keep to ourselves- see it isn't just "small" people noise that some find annoying. We enjoy this Earth, and we just want to share what we love with who we love.

Have a beautiful to all yall

[vamelungeon]

I took my son camping after he was walking and potty trained, so I understand taking children. I guess my question was more about an infant as opposed to a toddler.

[Pokey2006]

[quote=Pokey2006;812341]please, please, please pack out ALL of her garbage, including anything that's biodegradable. Just because it's biodegradable doesn't mean it's good for the wilderness.[quote]Not to pick on anyone, but this is a classic example of my problem with the whole "leave no trace" thing.

People seem to be confused about the difference between genuinely harming the wilderness, or simply encroaching on someone's aesthetic experience of the wilderness. A piece of plain white paper on the ground does absolutely no harm to the natural environment. It's made of cellulose, just like all the trees and twigs on the ground, and it will return to a state similar to theirs very quickly. It's not like a piece of plastic, that will lie there for years unchanged and possibly present a choking/ poisoning danger to wildlife.

But of course if you're hiking in "pristine" wilderness, you don't want to see a piece of paper lying on the ground. Other hikers are within their rights to complain if you just leave it lying there. That's still not the same as being "bad for the environment."

At the risk of being jumped on, I think biodegradable diapers are a great idea and a good solution for parents who want to hike with an infant. As others have said, it's no worse than the majority of us who find it "normal" to bury toilet paper rather than packing it out. For those who complain about animals leaving it lying around... animals leave a lot of unsightly things lying around, including unburied piles of their own poo and half-eaten carcasses. It's just part of the woods experience.

Pack it in, pack it out. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Burying anything "man-made," ie, not direct body waste, is simply unacceptable. Biodegradable or no.

[saimyoji]

If you need assistance with the packing it out part, I hear The Weasel offers his services. :D

Aint' that right Monkeyboy?

[drastic_quench]

Hike your own hike; crap your own crap.

[weary]

Just bury one in the yard. Come back in a couple of months and see how it is doing.
That strikes me as a good idea. But I think I'd probably Just stop a mile out of camp and bury the 100 percent "biodegradable" diaper, even if I found some remains. A shallow cat hole is different than a "properly" operated home compost system. If one follows the directions a good compost system breaks down in a couple of months.

My compost heap won't do that, because I don't follow the rules. The rules were designed for people who want to speedily change waste organic matter into top soil. My goal is to simply remove my waste from the waste stream safely, and incidentally to eventually produce a useful garden soil. I'm not in a rush. Therefore, my compost piles take several years to mature.

Incidentally, the complex procedures recommended by some groups are why very few people bother to compost. There directions are unneccessarily complex.

I just build two bottomless wooden boxes about 3 feet square and four or five feet tall in an out of the way place. All organic waste goes into one. When the first gets to be two thirds full, I cover it with a few shovel fulls of dirt, or a batch of leaves, and use the second bin for my organic wastes.

After three or four years the bin I used first will be filled with excellent soil with no effort on my part, and I switch to the other box.

Why are my compost bins so tall? That's to keep loose stuff from blowing around.

Weary

[maxNcathy]

In days of old
When kids were bold
Before diapers were invented
They dropped their load
In the middle of the road
And crawled away contented.

Sandalwood

[berninbush]

This is not a difficult concept to understand. Burying anything "man-made," ie, not direct body waste, is simply unacceptable. Biodegradable or no.

Why?

Why is it wrong to bury a piece of clean paper in the woods, but not your poo? The paper doesn't have a worse environmental impact, and if it comes to aesthetics, I'd rather see the paper!

The real LNT die-hards say to pack out "direct body waste" too. Most people aren't willing to do that. It's disgusting to carry, but decomposes naturally in the environment and enriches the soil. It all comes down to what you are and are not willing to do. The original poster for this thread was reluctant to carry out dirty diapers, and found an evironmentally acceptable alternative.

[Pokey2006]

Why?

Why is it wrong to bury a piece of clean paper in the woods, but not your poo? The paper doesn't have a worse environmental impact, and if it comes to aesthetics, I'd rather see the paper!

The real LNT die-hards say to pack out "direct body waste" too. Most people aren't willing to do that. It's disgusting to carry, but decomposes naturally in the environment and enriches the soil. It all comes down to what you are and are not willing to do. The original poster for this thread was reluctant to carry out dirty diapers, and found an evironmentally acceptable alternative.

Because direct body waste is natural. It's meant to be in nature. Diapers are not. Diapers are something MAN created.

And whether it's for the good of the wilderness or for aesthetics, diapers, and all other trash, should be packed out. I'm baffled that people think it's OK to bury DIAPERS out in the woods, for crying out loud. If you can't pack out your diapers, maybe you shouldn't be out there hiking with a baby in the first place. Not packing out your trash is lazy, selfish and just plain irresponsible.

[BipolarStroller]

Because direct body waste is natural. It's meant to be in nature. Diapers are not. Diapers are something MAN created.

And whether it's for the good of the wilderness or for aesthetics, diapers, and all other trash, should be packed out. I'm baffled that people think it's OK to bury DIAPERS out in the woods, for crying out loud. If you can't pack out your diapers, maybe you shouldn't be out there hiking with a baby in the first place. Not packing out your trash is lazy, selfish and just plain irresponsible.


Okay, another person who didn't read very carefuly, and I know you ain't calling me lazy.

We always pack out all our trash,even toilet paper- would never bury a commercial diaper(you are right though, any dumbass to bury a regular diaper anywhere should have to eat it)AND we have hauled more trash than we EVER take with us, I personally picked up 18 yes EIGHTEEN pieces of chewing gum in the smokey mountains, cigarette butts, a raunchy half eaten rehydrated spaghetti bag, and bags of trash we found that others left.

The reason I posted this is so that parents know that there is a biodegradeable diaper, I posted the link, so everyone quit jumping my ****, and all I can say is that if you dont think kids, dogs, senior citizens, handicapped, nearsighted and hard of hearing, or whoever you think your gonna single out doesn't belong on the trail, well then you are in your own little world, because I think that arrogent self righteous biggots do not belong on the trail, everyone else is fine though:welcomeaccording to my world.
I don't have the time or need to defend my original post, nor will I repeat myself again, I was just trying to "lessen the impact", I couldn't care less what you think of me, Poky2006
G-Diaper- the Biodegradeable diaper- that's it.
I encourage all of you to reduce, re-use, re-purpose and recycle and have a blessed day.

[saimyoji]

I see you haven't gotten to know us very well yet. We don't mean it personally, we just don't hike and can't help being holier-than-thou from behind our anonymous internet screens. I'd advise you to hide behind trees and fling those poopy diapers at WBers as they come bounding down the trail.


Oh wait, that won't work....WBers don't actually hike. :eek:


Hmmm....gotta think on this some more....hey look over there: boobs.

[berninbush]

Because direct body waste is natural. It's meant to be in nature. Diapers are not. Diapers are something MAN created.

BipolarStroller, I think Pokey's beef is with me, not you. ;) I'm the one baiting the conversation... trying to push people to think things through and question their assumptions about what "leave no trace" really means. I'm ok with a heated response... just don't feel like you have to be caught in the crossfire!

Pokey, how do you define "natural" vs. "manmade"? In one sense, human beings are part of the natural order and so everything we do is "natural." The reason I'm pushing this conversation is because I see so many people with a false dichotomy... everything "natural" is good and everything "manmade" is evil and automatically bad for the environment. And I think that's simply not true.

In the ordinary sense, there are some things that are definitely "manmade"-- like plastics, which do not chemically occur without deliberate intelligent design by human beings. Plastics that are disposed of irresponsibly do create environmental problems (not just aesthetic problems) because plant, animal, and bacterial species are not designed to handle them or break them down.

And there are some things, like poo, that are definitely "natural"-- they are made entirely of organic materials and are easily handled by the environment. More controversially, I would also put into this class things like fruit peels. You'd have a hard time making a case that fruit peels are manmade. They occur in exactly the same form in nature... although a banana peel on the Appalachian Trail is rather far from its native habitat. But the local environment has no trouble disposing of them. They are an aesthetic, not an evironmental, hazard. The level of aesthetic problem depends entirely on WHERE you dispose of your banana peel-- do you leave it lying on the trail, or do you bury it off the trail?

The hardest-to-classify objects in this regard are items constructed by man out of organic materials. These resemble "natural" items for purposes of environmental impact-- the environment can absorb and break them down easily. But they're closer to manmade items in aesthetic impact. Biodegradable diapers fall into this category.

Assuming these diapers are made out of some form of cellulose (paper), they are chemically no different from the trees that surround you on the trail. The difference is in form-- the evidence of intelligent design. You have to remember that human beings are not the only species to leave evidence of intelligent design lying around in the woods. Beavers build dams, birds build nests... our creations just tend to be a little more complex. Granted, a diaper is more disturbing to the aethetic experience of other hikers than a beaver dam! Which is why I say if you bury one, you should bury it deep.

So... you said "Diapers are something MAN created." Well, so is human poo. The only difference is that I create one with my brain, and the other with my gut. :D They are both aesthetically displeasing but environmentally friendly.

[saimyoji]

So... you said "Diapers are something MAN created." Well, so is human poo. The only difference is that I create one with my brain, and the other with my gut. :D They are both aesthetically displeasing but environmentally friendly.


ooooookkaaaayyyy then. :eek:

[WalkingStick75]

BipolarStroller,
The G-diaper looks to be much better then the others that are on the market right now but I think it is still going to be a pack it out item. One diaper would equal how much TP to a privy? Then their is the question as to how long.
Personally I pack out everything including trash left by others, (sometimes a lot of it) everything that is except my TP but I do use the type sold for RV's that is supposed to break down quickly in the RV holding tanks so it should bread down quickly in the privy or cat hole.
On another personal note, I think a lot more pay SAY they pack out everything then those that actually do pack out EVERYTHING, including their TP.
Again good info on the G-diaper

[Pokey2006]

BipolarStroller, I think Pokey's beef is with me, not you. ;) I'm the one baiting the conversation... trying to push people to think things through and question their assumptions about what "leave no trace" really means. I'm ok with a heated response... just don't feel like you have to be caught in the crossfire!

Pokey, how do you define "natural" vs. "manmade"? In one sense, human beings are part of the natural order and so everything we do is "natural." The reason I'm pushing this conversation is because I see so many people with a false dichotomy... everything "natural" is good and everything "manmade" is evil and automatically bad for the environment. And I think that's simply not true.

In the ordinary sense, there are some things that are definitely "manmade"-- like plastics, which do not chemically occur without deliberate intelligent design by human beings. Plastics that are disposed of irresponsibly do create environmental problems (not just aesthetic problems) because plant, animal, and bacterial species are not designed to handle them or break them down.

And there are some things, like poo, that are definitely "natural"-- they are made entirely of organic materials and are easily handled by the environment. More controversially, I would also put into this class things like fruit peels. You'd have a hard time making a case that fruit peels are manmade. They occur in exactly the same form in nature... although a banana peel on the Appalachian Trail is rather far from its native habitat. But the local environment has no trouble disposing of them. They are an aesthetic, not an evironmental, hazard. The level of aesthetic problem depends entirely on WHERE you dispose of your banana peel-- do you leave it lying on the trail, or do you bury it off the trail?

The hardest-to-classify objects in this regard are items constructed by man out of organic materials. These resemble "natural" items for purposes of environmental impact-- the environment can absorb and break them down easily. But they're closer to manmade items in aesthetic impact. Biodegradable diapers fall into this category.

Assuming these diapers are made out of some form of cellulose (paper), they are chemically no different from the trees that surround you on the trail. The difference is in form-- the evidence of intelligent design. You have to remember that human beings are not the only species to leave evidence of intelligent design lying around in the woods. Beavers build dams, birds build nests... our creations just tend to be a little more complex. Granted, a diaper is more disturbing to the aethetic experience of other hikers than a beaver dam! Which is why I say if you bury one, you should bury it deep.

So... you said "Diapers are something MAN created." Well, so is human poo. The only difference is that I create one with my brain, and the other with my gut. :D They are both aesthetically displeasing but environmentally friendly.

So, what's your point? What I get out of this is that you think burying biodegradable diapers in the woods is OK. I disagree.

What, exactly is your problem with packing out your garbage? Simply because you think people take LNT too far? You're right -- LNT is not just about what's good for the wilderness, but what's good for the people hiking in it. So what, exactly, is wrong with that? What is wrong with expecting to go out in the woods without tripping over the dug-up remnants of someone's dirty diaper?

Now, it might be fine for one person to bury a dirty diaper in the woods. But if that person is out with their baby for three days, that means at least three poopie diapers buried out in the woods for each trip. And if this person thinks that's OK, then they're probably also burying their toilet paper, which means each day, dirty toilet paper for one, two, or more adults is also being buried in the woods.

Well, that might not be so bad...but what if everyone did this? You'd have dirty toilet paper and dirty diapers buried in every campsite!

So if your old McDonald's cup was biodegradable, would it then be OK to bury it out in a wilderness area or a national forest? From what you're saying it would be.

I've been to places in Asia where people think it's OK to just toss their trash wherever. This is not a place where you'd want to live. Or maybe you'd feel right at home among all the trash. There are mounds of trash in the rivers, piles of trash behind homes in rural villages, litter along mountain paths. Some of it is probably even biodegradable. Still doesn't make it all right.

Don't kid yourself -- a couple of diapers might not be a lot of trash one time out, but it adds up.

And no, Bipolarstroller, I wasn't referring to you, I was having, and apparently still am having, a debate with Berninbush.

[Pokey2006]

Oh, and I actually do pack out my fruit peels. They are, indeed, natural, but they don't belong there, and I'm the one who brought them there, so I'm the one who needs to bring them out. Yes, part of this is so other hikers don't have to look at my discarded orange peels. It's called having some respect for others.

I also pack out old eggshells, used wet wipes and, yes, my dirty toilet paper.

[Wise Old Owl]

Oh, no, please don't bury diapers in the woods! I say the same thing about toilet paper -- PACK IT OUT! It might be biodegradable, but animals will often dig it up before it decays. I can't tell you how many times I've come across bits of toilet paper way out in the woods that were clearly buried and then dug up by animals.

Going way off the trail is no good, either. Some hikers like to bushwack, or stealth camp way off trail, and would not appreciate coming across someone's dug up dirty diaper.

I'm glad this person asked the question and is trying to do the responsible thing. If she's still monitoring the thread, I'd tell her to please, please, please pack out ALL of her garbage, including anything that's biodegradable. Just because it's biodegradable doesn't mean it's good for the wilderness.

But, hey, go ahead and use the biodegradable diapers as often as you can afford to. They're probably better for the landfills than traditional disposable diapers.


Sorry Pokey there is no way in hell I am blue bagging, i go to a outlet and get the biodegradable tp and lift a nearby trail rock - I just don't want to hear about it.

[Pokey2006]

I don't waste my energy getting upset about people burying toilet paper. Everyone does it. I don't agree with it, I don't see what's so hard about packing it out (just double-bag it with two Ziplocks, no big deal). But, whatever, people will do what they're going to do.

But DIAPERS, folks???!!?? C'mon people!

[berninbush]

Pokey, you make some excellent points, along the lines of things I was thinking myself. :)

1. Volume has a lot to do with how much of a problem something is likely to become. One reason I'm ok with the idea of burying biodegradable diapers is the fact that the volume is likely to be very low, in relative terms-- not many people hike with infants for any length of time. If all the residents of North America suddenly decided to hike the AT while carrying babies, the issue would suddenly take on a new level of magnitude!

2. WHERE and HOW you dispose of things makes a huge difference on aesthetic impact. If you bury a diaper in a shallow cathole near an established campsite, chances are it will end up (rightly) annoying someone as it resurfaces. If you take it well off a trail, away from all campsites and privies, and bury it deep, chances are much better that no one will ever see it again.

3. Burying biodegradable diapers actually has less negative environmental impact than stuffing them in a plastic bag and carrying them to a trash can to go in a landfill. It's well documented that even "biodegradable" materials like paper can take decades to decompose in a landfill, whereas they will disappear quickly in natural soil.


What, exactly is your problem with packing out your garbage?4. I have no problem with expecting myself and others to pack out garbage. I hate to see trash, even biodegradable trash, lying around loose on the ground. It makes me angry that people are so lazy and thoughtless. I pack out my trash and try to leave the wilderness looking like I found it. When I make exceptions for things like toilet paper, which I consider too nasty to carry out and too small to be worth worrying about, I make sure it's buried out of sight and way off the trail. I think there can be reasonable compromises about such things.


So if your old McDonald's cup was biodegradable, would it then be OK to bury it out in a wilderness area or a national forest? From what you're saying it would be.Nope. It goes back to the issue of volume. The volume of that sort of trash is much, much greater than the volume of TP used by hikers, and there's much less excuse for not packing it out-- it's not nasty and stinky. Packing it out is reasonable and responsible.

"Reasonable and responsible"-- those are key words to Leave No Trace. I firmly believe that if you set the bar too high, and demand that people do things most of them are unwilling to do, they will either be turned off of hiking altogether or they will shrug their shoulders and ignore the whole issue. If you build credibility by giving people reasonable guidelines they are willing to follow, you'll actually get better compliance.


The reason I got involved in this discussion at all is not because I care about diapers. I don't even have any kids. It was the worldview that appeared to be behind the discussion that caught my eye and made me speak up.

Pokey, I know pretty much nothing about you and your worldview, so this may not even apply to you. But some of the words you used echo what tends to be said by people who adhere to a philosophy that views the human race as an evil interloper in a pristine, immutable, self-sustaining natural order. It reminds me of some of the sci-fi stories about time travel, where the characters are warned to change nothing in the past so that they don't upset "the way things are." The unspoken assumption is that the way things are is the way things should be.

People with this worldview seem to be trying to sidle through life without touching anything, bulls tiptoeing through a china shop, stabbed with faint guilt for every breath they convert from oxygen to carbon dioxide. Their unexamined basic assumption is that any human influence on the environment is automatically evil because it is not "natural." The strictest religions of the world could not be more completely convinced of human depravity, or more hopeless of redemption... because how do you atone if your very existence is a sin?? The mass suicide of the human race is the logical conclusion of this sort of thinking, but of course very few people are willing to carry it that far. (In less drastic forms, you get people recommending voluntary sterilization and enforced negative population growth.)

I have a very different worldview. I believe humans were made to be part of the natural order and that the distinction between "natural" and "manmade" is somewhat arbitrary and meaningless in the long run. Since we seem to be the most intelligent life form around, we have an important responsibility as caretakers of the earth-- this means respecting one another and all the other species on the planet. And that, ultimately, leads to choices; we weigh the needs of one human being against another and the needs of humans vs. other species, and make the decision that seems best for all.

You have to decide where to draw the line on what is and is not acceptable. We are clearly coming down on opposite sides on TP and diapers. ;) Otherwise I think we're mostly agreeing.

Wow, how's that for a philosophical conversation about poo? ;)

[Pokey2006]

Pokey, I know pretty much nothing about you and your worldview, so this may not even apply to you. But some of the words you used echo what tends to be said by people who adhere to a philosophy that views the human race as an evil interloper in a pristine, immutable, self-sustaining natural order. It reminds me of some of the sci-fi stories about time travel, where the characters are warned to change nothing in the past so that they don't upset "the way things are." The unspoken assumption is that the way things are is the way things should be.

Otherwise I think we're mostly agreeing.



I was always of the opinion that one should never make assumptions.

Here, you are assuming that pretty much everyone who believes in LNT is so against the idea of encroaching on their environment that they are afraid to breath. That's a pretty big assumption to make. One can believe in LNT, and spout off the catch phrases supporting the philosophy, without being a mindless extremist tree-hugger.

Yet we seem to be agreeing on the basic gist of LNT. What's up with that? You just felt like having a debate today, and picked "the business of poo" as your subject?

Ah, here's one for you: why does everyone think their dirty toilet paper is so nasty? Sure, it's "dirty," it's unhygenic, but you have to touch it anyway when you wipe your butt! Since you're touching it anyway, why not place it in a Ziplock bag instead of a hole in the ground? The put it in another bag, then put it in your "trash bag." Doing this, I've never had my dirty toilet paper come in contact with anything in my pack.

This makes me think of something a German friend of mine said recently. She noticed that American women are loathe to touch their private parts. "Ewww, that's gross," is the usual reaction she gets when mentioning that she uses a Diva Cup, which requires getting up close and personal with your vagina. She believes that Europeans are not nearly so uncomfortable with touching and dealing with their own bodies.

Or maybe she was just making an assumption...

[berninbush]

Here, you are assuming that pretty much everyone who believes in LNT is so against the idea of encroaching on their environment that they are afraid to breath.Nope. I specifically said "this may not apply to you"-- in recognition that you probably aren't a "mindless extremist tree-hugger." I would say that most people who use the "catch phrases" don't fully embrace the anti-human worldview... but they may be more influenced by it than they realize. Even the phrase "encroaching on their environment" pre-supposes that humans are somehow apart from the natural order rather than an integral (and possibly positive) part of it. Language is powerful in the way that it shapes our ideas.

And yes, I enjoy thoughtful civil debate. I like to challenge people's thinking, and to have my own challenged in turn. But if that's not your cup of tea, don't feel obliged to continue!

Americans probably are too easily grossed out by things. But it's not easy to overcome your gut-level reaction of disgust. When I got into hiking (and I'm still a novice), I had a hard enough time just making myself take care of business in the woods. On the other hand, I'm not at all bothered by other things that some people would find disgusting. It's all pretty individual.

I guess the best analogy I can give is to say that I feel about packing out TP like you might feel if a "LNT authority" told you that henceforth you must poop into a bag and pack it out with you. I don't know, maybe that wouldn't bother you either.

[Pokey2006]

And yes, I enjoy thoughtful civil debate. I like to challenge people's thinking, and to have my own challenged in turn. But if that's not your cup of tea, don't feel obliged to continue!


I do, too. However, reading words that someone typed onto an Internet forum is not what challenges my way of thinking. We're not in a philosophy 101 class.

What challenges my thinking are my experiences. And it are these experiences which have led me to feel so strongly about LNT. Many, but not all, were while traveling overseas. Experiences and snapshots in time such as:

--Walking over a bridge in Kathmandu, looking down at a river choked by trash. So much trash that it looked like someone put the landfill right on top of the river. And there, in the middle of it all, was a little boy, maybe 5-6 years old, picking through the trash.

--Staying at a lodge in the mountains of Nepal, where the owners had so many empty beer bottles, they used them to line their walkways. They also tossed them into a giant pile behind the lodge. You see, the lodge is three days of hiking from the nearest road. But that didn't stop the tourists from drinking the bottled beer (and bottled water).

--Coming across a full fire ring, and the remnants of a fire, directly on the Appalachian Trail. Not next to the trail, not in a campsite along the trail, but right on top of it.

--Watching an elderly woman in front of me on the bus in Nepal toss her little black plastic bag out the window, like she had probably done a thousand times before.

--Retrieving water from a spring on the AT in North Carolina, only to look up and see bits of toilet paper and human waste not five feet away.

--Walking past the garbage on the AT where it crosses 19E.

Each of these was just one moment in time, but they each made me stop and think. If you want to challenge someone's thinking, take them on a hike.

It has been nice having this discussion with you, though.

[Pokey2006]

And it are these experiences

Hmmm. That doesn't make much sense. Either the south is finally rubbing off on me, or I just haven't had enough coffee yet this morning!