PDA

View Full Version : camping in pa.



k-n
03-01-2009, 11:10
heading north between peter's mtn. shelter and rausch gap shelter is 18 miles. any camping in between those shelters?

Yahtzee
03-01-2009, 11:36
The best camping, from my memory, is the top of climb out of 325. I believe it is at the junction of the AT and the Horsheshoe Trail. Only problem is no water. However, you will have just crossed a spring before 325 and the creek at 325. 325 is a good spot to chill and cook dinner. Then all you'd have to do is the climb up to the ridge. The climb itself is gradual but the footing can get a bit annoying. There is plenty of water on top of the ridge, in fact, so much so the trail is usually muddy year round, but if you make it that far, you might as well head to Rausch.

Not sure what kinda shape you are in, but the hike from Peters to Rausch is as easy as it gets. 18 miles is doable, if you have concerns.

Happy Hiking.

emerald
03-01-2009, 13:02
The short answer appears in my post's title. I still don't have a current KTA map and need to get one. Anyone who hikes the area in question should carry KTA's map. A map of SGL #211 is available on PGC's website. Read the WhiteBlaze thread entitled Pennsylvania State Game Lands (SGLs) (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33537) where you will find a link to general information about Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) and a link to the SGL #211 map I mentioned.

A significant portion of the area about which you've inquired is State Game Lands #211 also known as St. Anthony's Wilderness where camping is permitted by through hikers (those engaged in linear hikes) within 200 feet of the A.T. more than 500 feet from public access areas and surface water.

There are some tracts which are federal land acquired for protection of our beloved Appalachian Trail by the National Park Service and managed for them under contract by ATC and its member clubs. If you comply with the regs I just indicated above, I believe I am correct in saying you will also be in compliance on U.S. property.

Please be advised, possession, consumption and transportation of alcoholic beverages is not permitted on State Game Lands. I'm not aware of burn bans at present which would prohibit campfires, but please be careful. Warming fires are permitted on SGLs except when prohibited, but they are to be small, watched carefully and extinguished completely.

Tenting or hammocking on SGL #211 at Rausch Gap Shelter which is outside the 200 foot A.T. camping zone is not permitted. The shelter is available for use by through hikers hiking at least 25-mile linear hikes up to it's capacity. I have not seen the PCG document where this rule is spelled out, but the information was provided in the Rausch Gap Shelter thread by the club member responsible for managing RGS.

This question is an example of one which comes up frequently and would be best answered once correctly, then linked when questions arise. Were it fully answered in The Online Companion or an article here, we could refer those who inquire there.

ki0eh
03-01-2009, 13:32
Here are the PA State Game Lands use regulations: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter135/subchapCtoc.html

In addition to the places noted above, folks also camp near the village site of Yellow Springs, marked by a trail register and a few piles of stone remaining from foundations, and generally legal according to the regulation linked above.

Although the eponymous Yellow Spring is well off trail and not recommended for drinking due to its naturally occurring sulfur, until early May there are usually many seeps about 1/2 to 1 mile trail-north of Yellow Springs, and also water running in the Yellow Springs hollow. These all dry up before thru-hiker season.

Water (small stream, usually fairly clear but filtering is recommended) is almost always found on the side trail to "The General" 2.5 miles trail-north of Yellow Springs, and trail-west of the A.T. A couple of flat, wet in early spring, spots hidden in the bushes near here are not the regulatory distance from water. About 1/4 mile trail-north of the General junction is the Cold Spring side trail with a little bit of flat ground, don't go very far down the mountain.

The eponymous Cold Spring is all the way down the mountain (below the railroad bed) and hidden in the trees, so don't go looking for down the side trail unless you are more interested than most hikers in the history of St. Anthony's Wilderness - if you are, scroll down about 40% of the way on http://www.satc-hike.org/hikemap.html and chase the links. There is a seasonal seep about 1/2 way down the Cold Spring Trail but it's gone by early May as well - heading towards The General is shorter, flatter, and more reliable.

ki0eh
03-01-2009, 13:40
I thought of another site! About 1/3 mile trail-south of 325 on the south slope of Peters Mtn is a spring trail. There are two flat spots visible on the spring trail - the one on the bottom near the spring itself is not legal, but the site not quite 1/2 way down the spring trail might be just barely legal.

emerald
03-01-2009, 14:07
Glad to see your posts. I hope I got mine right as it relates to SATC's area of responsibility. If not, I'll be happy to modify what I posted.

Some time ago, I suggested a St. Anthony's Wilderness thread. Maybe a thread which covers the area between Duncannon and Swatara Gap might be better. Since I'm doubtful we will ever see all we might like in The Companion due to space limitations, maybe what I desire also requires an article.

I've long thought eastern Pennsylvania with its assortment of land ownership and managers calls for an article to help sort it out for hikers who respect what those managers are trying to accomplish.

Jack Tarlin
03-01-2009, 14:54
Some very good advice so far.

I feel compelled to add that you might not want to be listening to music while hiking this section, as there is a very healthy timber rattler population in this stretch, so keep your eyes open, especially in camp.

ki0eh
03-01-2009, 15:16
SATC does have information on the web site dedicated to camping and fire rules, linked directly from the home page http://www.satc-hike.org/

Suggestions on more info to include on that link, or how better to organize it, are welcome.

emerald
03-01-2009, 15:37
SATC's efforts to educate the hiking public are exemplary and I appreciate them. I also have some understanding of how much time and effort goes into those kinds of efforts. If only people would link what's been posted and read it, we would be well on our way to something better.

I'm still grappling with trying to figure out what's the best way to get this information to those who should have it.

ki0eh, do you think there would be any point in a PA article with links to club websites where detailed information would be provided or at least ATC's page where A.T. maintenance assignments are indicated and links to those clubs provided?

ki0eh
03-01-2009, 21:15
Probably it would be a good idea to have an article on A.T. rules in PA (or maybe the Mid-Atlantic)- but I don't have time to write it, which is a good thing since my writing skills seem to have corroded.

Panzer1
03-01-2009, 21:34
Tenting or hammocking on SGL #211 at Rausch Gap Shelter is not permitted which is outside the 200 foot A.T. camping zone. The shelter is available for use by through hikers only who have hiked 25 or more miles up to it's capacity. I have not seen the PCG document where this rule is spelled out, but the information was provided by the club member responsible for managing RGS.

Does that mean that if you start a section hike on the AT in PA you have to hike at least 25 miles before you can legally camp??

Panzer

shelterbuilder
03-01-2009, 22:02
Does that mean that if you start a section hike on the AT in PA you have to hike at least 25 miles before you can legally camp??

Panzer

I'll take this one.

No, it means that, if you're stopped by PGC personnel and asked where you started and where you plan to stop, there had better be 25 miles or more between those 2 points...and probably a vehicle at each end if you're hiking with someone.

What the PGC is trying to discourage is to have folks park somewhere, walk in to a "camping site" along the AT, set up camp for the night, and walk back out to the starting point. Experience has shown them that the distance between the starting/stopping point and the "camping site" tends to be VERY short; this, in turn, tends to invite HEAVY use/abuse of the site, which can be detrimental to wildlife habitat in the area.

Panzer1
03-01-2009, 22:18
What the PGC is trying to discourage is to have folks park somewhere, walk in to a "camping site" along the AT, set up camp for the night, and walk back out to the starting point. Experience has shown them that the distance between the starting/stopping point and the "camping site" tends to be VERY short; this, in turn, tends to invite HEAVY use/abuse of the site, which can be detrimental to wildlife habitat in the area.

Bummer, because that's exactly what I like to do. Just hike in and spend the night in a shelter and go home the next day. Its a fun weekend and besides I can't get any more time off from work. Also, I've never been able to hike 25 miles in a day. It would take me 2 or even 3 days to do 25 miles.

Panzer

shelterbuilder
03-01-2009, 22:28
Bummer, because that's exactly what I like to do. Just hike in and spend the night in a shelter and go home the next day. Its a fun weekend and besides I can't get any more time off from work. Also, I've never been able to hike 25 miles in a day. It would take me 2 or even 3 days to do 25 miles.

Panzer

As long as you're not camped on PGC land, there's no problem. The area around the Rausch Gap Shelter has - historically - been one area where the PGC has had trouble with "in-and-out" campers...and worse.

You have to remember that the AT in Pa. crosses land that is owned by several different agencies (federal, state, and municipal), and that the land-use regulations are different for each agency. (That's one time when the ATC maps come in really handy: you can tell whose land you're on, and if you know the regs, you can tell what's allowed and what's not.) Generally speaking, the PGC's regulations as they affect hikers are the most strict, since the PGC is in the business of maintaining habitat for wildlife, not hikers.

ki0eh
03-01-2009, 22:32
A number of shelters in PA are not on State Game Lands (SGL) - none south of the Cumberland Valley, for instance. Also Clarks Ferry and Peters Mountain shelters are not on SGL. None of the Tuscarora Trail's shelters to date in PA are on SGL.

shelterbuilder
03-01-2009, 22:47
Actually, I can only think of 2 that ARE on PGC land: Rausch Gap shelter and Bake Oven Knob shelter. And Bake Oven Knob shelter is right on the boundary between PGC and NPS land, so if you tent camp or hammock on the ridgetop, the rule doesn't apply to you.

However, the PGC does own a lot of the LAND over which the footpath crosses, and the regs DO apply there.

Like I've said before, the ATC maps are good for finding out whose land you're camped on.

Panzer1
03-01-2009, 23:02
What about the Eagles nest shelter. The one just south of port Clinton. Is that one on state grounds? I've hiked from the road into that one because its only 6 easy miles for a one night stand.

Panzer

emerald
03-02-2009, 02:46
Situated on Weiser State Forest, Eagle's Nest Shelter cannot be easily accessed except by SGL #110. An out-and-back hike beginning and ending at a PGC public access area with an overnight stay at ENS would be legal since you would not be camped on SGL #110, but you could find yourself trying to convince a LEO you didn't camp there.

You might be able to hike a circuit farther east pointed out here on several occasions beginning and ending at Blue Rocks Campground with an overnight at Windsor Furnace where you could tent or use the shelter. It would be a better mid-week, off-season hike.

I can think of others and many creative but legal strategies. Get a KTA map and put on your thinking cap. Another option would be to find a linear-hike buddy with a car or get someone to provide a shuttle or better yet two and a secure place to park your car.

I can think of a legal NOBO and a SOBO out-and-back that begins at Port Clinton. All that's required is a place to park and there are several which come to mind.

If you want hikes, PM me with specific places you want to visit. Where there's a will there's often a way. Join BMECC and participate in some of their hikes. You may find some hiking buddies and you're sure to learn something new and pick up hike ideas.

emerald
03-02-2009, 03:16
I've never been able to hike 25 miles in a day. It would take me 2 or even 3 days to do 25 miles.

Panzer

I didn't review the material in RGS before posting and I see now having read it my earlier post contained an error for which I must apologize. My error's corrected although I'm still not altogether happy with the words I chose. I wondered if you realized given what you wrote my comment applied only to Rausch Gap Shelter and that camping within 200 feet of the A.T. by through hikers is perfectly acceptable to PGC?

You might make a summer weekend hike of it. The days are long then and it's a good time see rattlers!

shelterbuilder
03-02-2009, 11:42
What about the Eagles nest shelter. The one just south of port Clinton. Is that one on state grounds? I've hiked from the road into that one because its only 6 easy miles for a one night stand.

Panzer

Eagle's Nest Shelter is on State Forest land, and the regulations are different since the land is owned by a different state agency. PGC regs do not, to my knowledge, address hiking THROUGH PGC land to get to an overnight camp on other land. Camp happy - Bureau of Forestry rules prevail here!:D

And this an example of the confusion regarding land ownership in Pa. The Game Commission, the Bureau of Forestry, the State Parks Dept., and at least one municipality (Hamburg) own and manage AT land in this state, along with the NPS. NPS is a late-comer to land ownership/management along the AT in Pa., and where the state owns land through any of its agencies, NPS never bought THAT land, since it was considered to be already within the public domain, and therefore protected. The only land that NPS purchased was land that was owned privately, and it is here that NPS rules apply. Elsewhere, check the map for who owns the land, and go by the rules that were established by that agency.

Clear as mud, right?

emerald
03-02-2009, 12:08
Sure, once the solid material settles, you can see your way through the turbidity.:D

shelterbuilder
03-02-2009, 15:16
Sure, once the solid material settles, you can see your way through the turbidity.:D

Are you sure that you're not talking about something else?:eek::D

~Ronin~
03-04-2009, 13:26
I thought of another site! About 1/3 mile trail-south of 325 on the south slope of Peters Mtn is a spring trail. There are two flat spots visible on the spring trail - the one on the bottom near the spring itself is not legal, but the site not quite 1/2 way down the spring trail might be just barely legal.


That last part is funny because I can just imagine a Ranger pulling out a tape measure and saying, "Well you are 199 feet from the water source and by law you need to be 200 feet away, so here is a ticket."

dperry
03-04-2009, 19:32
Some very good advice so far.

I feel compelled to add that you might not want to be listening to music while hiking this section, as there is a very healthy timber rattler population in this stretch, so keep your eyes open, especially in camp.

In particular, try to camp at established places: when you do, try to setup in the center of the campsite, and not at the edge along the rough. This is not to say that rattlesnakes never curl up in open places, because of course they do; but at least out in the open you can see them. Which leads to the next point: always look around before you get out of the tent; particularly, grab a light and scan when you have to get up in the dark to answer nature's call. My wife and I learned these lessons, blessedly without damage, at the Sand Spring campsite between PA 183 and Port Clinton.

shelterbuilder
03-04-2009, 21:45
That last part is funny because I can just imagine a Ranger pulling out a tape measure and saying, "Well you are 199 feet from the water source and by law you need to be 200 feet away, so here is a ticket."

That depends on what kind of a day the Ranger had before he found you. :D

FWIW, dperry, that entire area is loaded with rattlers - it's great habitat for them. And, ah, FYI - the Sand Spring campsite IS more than 200 feet from the AT, and IS on Game Lands. :eek:

emerald
03-04-2009, 23:51
"Well you are 199 feet from the water source and by law you need to be 200 feet away, so here is a ticket."

No camping within 500 feet of surface water on Pennsylvania State Game Lands.

dperry
03-05-2009, 03:00
That depends on what kind of a day the Ranger had before he found you. :D

FWIW, dperry, that entire area is loaded with rattlers - it's great habitat for them. And, ah, FYI - the Sand Spring campsite IS more than 200 feet from the AT, and IS on Game Lands. :eek:

And you're too polite to mention it, but it's also quite a bit closer than 500 feet to the spring--heck, it might not be 50 feet. I plead guilty, your honor. :( I do, however, raise the following mitigating circumstances for my sentencing:
a.) My wife was worn-out, in pain, and, in retrospect, probably dehydrated (that was probably the hottest weekend all of last year)--she wasn't going to make it to Eagles Nest Shelter.
b.) That area is full of rocks and very tangled roots--there wasn't any legal spot around there that was both unbumpy and flat. Simply digging a hole the next morning for nature's call was a major undertaking.
c.) Speaking of which, we were very scrupulous about removing all trash and doing all contaminating activities quite far away from the spring, and in a place where stuff wouldn't flow into it eventually.

However, I do promise that in future hikes we will try much harder to camp in legal spots.

shelterbuilder
03-05-2009, 08:55
And you're too polite to mention it, but it's also quite a bit closer than 500 feet to the spring--heck, it might not be 50 feet. I plead guilty, your honor. :( I do, however, raise the following mitigating circumstances for my sentencing:
a.) My wife was worn-out, in pain, and, in retrospect, probably dehydrated (that was probably the hottest weekend all of last year)--she wasn't going to make it to Eagles Nest Shelter.
b.) That area is full of rocks and very tangled roots--there wasn't any legal spot around there that was both unbumpy and flat. Simply digging a hole the next morning for nature's call was a major undertaking.
c.) Speaking of which, we were very scrupulous about removing all trash and doing all contaminating activities quite far away from the spring, and in a place where stuff wouldn't flow into it eventually.

However, I do promise that in future hikes we will try much harder to camp in legal spots.

Well, I'm NOT the campsite police, you know... :D. Even when I'm out in the field and I find someone doing something that might cost them a fine, I'll tell them what COULD happen (and why), and then it's up to them to decide what to do.

However, that is one campsite that has easier drive-up access for the Rangers than most folks realize (from the Game Commission's dirt road and through the fields), and I'd hate to see anyone get fined for an illegal campsite.

emerald
03-05-2009, 14:59
we were very scrupulous about removing all trash and doing all contaminating activities quite far away from the spring, and in a place where stuff wouldn't flow into it eventually.

There's a good reason I won't drink from that spring -- people who make their own rules!:rolleyes:

dperry
03-06-2009, 01:02
Well, I'm NOT the campsite police, you know... :D. Even when I'm out in the field and I find someone doing something that might cost them a fine, I'll tell them what COULD happen (and why), and then it's up to them to decide what to do.

However, that is one campsite that has easier drive-up access for the Rangers than most folks realize (from the Game Commission's dirt road and through the fields), and I'd hate to see anyone get fined for an illegal campsite.

And if they had come, we would have accepted responsibility and paid the fine. However, given that it was out of season and an incredibly hot weekend, I figured the risk was low. Heck, in three days we had human contact period five times.


There's a good reason I won't drink from that spring -- people who make their own rules!:rolleyes:Now, there's breaking the rules, and then there's breaking the rules. If we really didn't give a care, we would have washed our dishes in the spring and done our business right there, rather than 500 feet to the side and downhill. This isn't an excuse; I screwed up, and I admit it. If I did it all over again, I would have stopped at the previous campsite that was actually on the trail, and just accepted that I would have to go and schlep the water back and forth. But I was hopeful that there would be a legal spot near the intersection of the Sand Spring trail. As it turned out, there wasn't, and at that point, my wife was in no shape to go further. As it was, I ended up having to carry both her pack and mine down to the campsite. Again, I messed up, and next time, I'll be more conservative if I don't absolutely know that there's a campsite at our goal for the day. But it's not like we completely disregarded all standards of propriety here. :cool:
And anyway, I think the scare the rattlesnake threw into us has already taken care of our karmic punishment. :D

emerald
03-06-2009, 06:24
I'll comment more on the last post when I have more time and am less outraged!

zoidfu
03-06-2009, 06:41
I comment more on the last post when I have more time and am less outraged!

Yeah, I'm sure we'll all be waiting in suspense....:rolleyes:

He said he was sorry, his wife wasn't going to be able to go any further, and he did the best he could with respect to the situation. I guess he could have pushed his wife to the brink of a heat injury just to please you but I guess it just wasn't your day. "Get over it" is the best advice I can offer you.

emerald
03-06-2009, 07:20
I'm not interested in your advice, nor did I solicit it. There are also other issues with the post I commented upon and yours.

We're talking about 500 feet or maybe 400 more. What you may not realize is the reliable spring hikers depend upon in the summer is downhill! Every time that illegal campsite is used it becomes more obvious and attractive to others.

zoidfu
03-06-2009, 08:02
I'm not interested in your advice, nor did I solicit it. There are also other issues with the post I commented upon and yours.

We're talking about 500 feet or maybe 400 more. What you may not realize is the reliable spring hikers depend upon in the summer is downhill! Every time that illegal campsite is used it becomes more obvious and attractive to others.

No, you're right... dress him down for a few more pages over something he would have avoided doing if he could have helped it. Unleash the full power of your outrage! Maybe you can get him to apologize 5 more times!

Hey, maybe we can call Ranger Rick and Smokey the Bear and they can prosecute this. I'll bet statute of limitations hasn't run out yet! What do you think the proper punishment is? A dozen licks from Smokey's shovel? That sounds about right...

shelterbuilder
03-06-2009, 09:26
Hey, guys - STUFF HAPPENS! When it happens, you do the best that you can, and trust that whatever damage you may have done isn't so much that Mother Nature can't restore it.

Yes, emerald, you and I both know that the RELIABLE spring is downhill and on the right side of the campsite; anyone who isn't local wouldn't know it. Yes, the upper end of the Sand Spring trail (leading out to the road) would probably have been both level (more-or-less) and legal. Yes, the more a campsite is used, the more it encourages use. All of that having been said, I've been out with a weary spouse - and with weary hiking partners - and sometimes, a bad choice is the best choice available. As I said, stuff happens. You do your best to mitigate the damage. And pray afterwards....

dperry
03-06-2009, 10:17
I can see I am going to have to apologize again. I should not have been the slightest bit cavalier about issues which I know people are passionate about. That was wrong of me.

While I genuinely appreciate those who are willing to defend or excuse me, I also do not wish to start a war over something in which I was at fault. I have no more desire to foul the WhiteBlaze "spring" than I have to contaminate a real one. I apologize for my error at Sand Spring, and I will do everything in my power to make sure that I do not repeat the mistake in future.

emerald, I would honestly welcome your commentary via PM about the other issues that I did not take into consideration. If anyone else wishes to say something, please send me PM's as well. I am still pretty new to backpacking, and I am grateful for any constructive criticism which will make me a better and more considerate hiker.

In the meantime, I respectfully request that the moderators lock this thread and that anyone who wants to discuss any other issues that may have come up in this thread do so in another one.

emerald
03-06-2009, 15:10
I can see I am going to have to apologize again.

Thank you for your post. Your apology appears to be genuine. You seem to be contrite and accept responsibility for your actions. There's no need to lock to the thread.

I know you know PGC's regs because you posted the PA Code link I've reposted many times. Many who don't know as much as you know have learned from your earlier efforts and learned more today. Something good has already come of your admission and more is apt to follow.

I must clock 12.5 hours today to get tomorrow off. I want tomorrow off bad. I have much more to say on this topic, but I have nothing to gain by berating you publicly nor should anyone else.

You are already on my contacts list. PM me whenever you wish.:)

~Ronin~
03-06-2009, 21:49
No camping within 500 feet of surface water on Pennsylvania State Game Lands.

Whoops. Well my post was written jokingly anyway, so I guess the semantics don't matter. Thanks for clarifying the actual distance though.

Cosmo Rules
03-09-2009, 22:27
I'm hiking with K-N.