Starting to like heavier gear ... [Archive]

Camping Dave

03-08-2009, 08:39

Is anybody else out there moving toward heavier gear?

I’m 41 years old and went lightweight several years ago. My knees are not so great (wresting injuries), and my back ain’t so hot either ever since a really hard shot to the back while playing rugby. I dropped a few bucks, made some stuff, and ended up with a really light kit:

G4 from GVP Gear replaced a Gregory Reality
WM Highlite replaced a synthetic bag
Silnylon tarp replaced a tent
Alky stove replaced a Gaz canister
Heiny pot replaced a 2 pot nested cook kit
Trail Runners replaced boots
Dri Ducks replaced nylon rain gear

Strange stuff started happening over the last year. I knocked over an alky stove, froze my nuggets off in the mountains of West Virginia when temps dropped from 70 during the day to 25 at night, busted the rear seam out of my Dri Ducks pants and tore them to shreds on the PA Mid State trail, started jogging and knee strengthening exercises, and regularly hiked with a fellow who carries ~40lbs.

In January I grabbed my son’s $45 Jansport Scout external frame pack, stuffed my old SD Lightyear inside, strapped on a 6lb sleeping, added a 1/5th of Makers Mark and real breakfast food, put on my boots, and … found this setup easier on my knees, back, and shoulders than my lightweight kit. Why? Basically, because the Jansport has a real frame, real suspension, and a functional (though far from perfect) hip belt. And front panel loading is way way better than top loading. Pockets are kind of cool too.

Last week I slept in my new 2.5lb WM Badger. Temps were moderate, about 30. I was warm wearing nothing. Turned out I did not need 2 pounds of heavy fleece clothing, socks and balaclava to stay warm like in my Highlite. Next week when I hit the AT in SNP I will carry the Gregory, my new bag, my tent, and of course the Makers Mark. I find myself on the internet looking at white gas stoves too.

Big Dawg

03-08-2009, 09:19

hahaha... your story is similar to mine. A few years back, after monitoring Andrew Skurka's sea to sea trek, & reading a lot of threads @ WB about going UL, I began to lighten my load. Not in every category, but enough to make a sizable (5 to 7#) difference in my overall base weight. It didn't last very long. I soon realized carrying an extra 6# was well worth it, for me. I'm still at 38# w/ 7 days food, & 2L water,,, not so bad considering what that extra 6# gave me in comfort, etc. I honestly couldn't tell that big of a difference between 32# and 38#, even after a long hike day. Lessons learned. Everyone's gotta find what works for them. For me, it's not UL.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 09:28

Is anybody else out there moving toward heavier gear?
I go back and forth on my gear. I actually have gone up on some of my gear since I got off the trail last year in some areas - but in others I simplified my stuff by getting rid of things I didn't need or could do mo' better - so my base is still about the same.

I’m 41 years old and went lightweight several years ago. My knees are not so great (wresting injuries), and my back ain’t so hot either ever since a really hard shot to the back while playing rugby. I dropped a few bucks, made some stuff, and ended up with a really light kit:

G4 from GVP Gear replaced a Gregory Reality
WM Highlite replaced a synthetic bag
Silnylon tarp replaced a tent
Alky stove replaced a Gaz canister
Heiny pot replaced a 2 pot nested cook kit
Trail Runners replaced boots
Dri Ducks replaced nylon rain gear

Strange stuff started happening over the last year. I knocked over an alky stove, froze my nuggets off in the mountains of West Virginia when temps dropped from 70 during the day to 25 at night, busted the rear seam out of my Dri Ducks pants and tore them to shreds on the PA Mid State trail, started jogging and knee strengthening exercises, and regularly hiked with a fellow who carries ~40lbs.
FWIW - it looks to me like you went too light too fast. I never liked the G4, I didn't like the Heiny Pot, a canister stove if you already have one is a good choice already, I've thought dri-ducks were too fragile. Some of the other stuff you have I like - but that is my likes..

In January I grabbed my son’s $45 Jansport Scout external frame pack, stuffed my old SD Lightyear inside, strapped on a 6lb sleeping, added a 1/5th of Makers Mark and real breakfast food, put on my boots, and … found this setup easier on my knees, back, and shoulders than my lightweight kit. Why? Basically, because the Jansport has a real frame, real suspension, and a functional (though far from perfect) hip belt. And front panel loading is way way better than top loading. Pockets are kind of cool too.
I can see where you are coming from. Only thing I would say is I carried a huge bag and never liked that either except for car camping. I'd look at finding a happy middle on that.

Hooah on the Makers Mark.

But one thing I will point out - that while your pack is probably better for your back (G4 packs suck IMO), I don't think that your assertion that this is easier on your knees is going to be a true one. No matter how good the frame and hip belt are - the knees just know that everything above them is on top of them. Take care of the knees. You may want to look into some of those bands.

Last week I slept in my new 2.5lb WM Badger. Temps were moderate, about 30. I was warm wearing nothing. Turned out I did not need 2 pounds of heavy fleece clothing, socks and balaclava to stay warm like in my Highlite. Next week when I hit the AT in SNP I will carry the Gregory, my new bag, my tent, and of course the Makers Mark. I find myself on the internet looking at white gas stoves too.
Sounds like the Badger is the bag for you. I hiked with a homemade quilt last year and did great - but after the trail I went into an upper body workout program. My shoulders and chest got bigger. January 1st I went out with the same quilt I carried last year and froze because of that. I ended up grabbing my old Nunatak BCB out because it had more room up there for me.

Keep the Makers Mark. I liked to start from town with a quart to a point of Mr Beam. It's going to be hard to find any in town so you might want to look into an alternative way of getting it.

And stick to a canister - I've got a few gas stoves and they are probably not going to be what you want either. Don't over-think it right before your hike starts. I know the temptation is hard to fight - right before I started my pack weight started climbing as I started trying to anticipate issues that may arise after my hike starts - even though I knew what I needed before I even started. Some things can be worked out on the trail as you get your groove going and that really is the best place to work them out.

And one more time - hooah on the Makers Mark. Have fun.

Lyle

03-08-2009, 09:40

I lightened up about 4 years ago. Have done more hiking, for longer distances than I had in years. No plans to go back. I now carry about a 17# pack, about 23# or 24# with consumables. Not ultralight, but much better than the 40# - 45# I used to typically carry.

Still looking to lighten-up even more without becoming fanatical about it.

I hike more comfortably, less foot problems, still no knee problems (wanna keep it that way), much easier to hitch, easier to get to/from trail with a smaller pack, and sleep more comfortably (especially if I'm using my hammock).

I can't think of any down sides except cost of re-outfitting and the added care that lightweight gear requires. I still have had no major blow-outs. I've used the same FroggTogg type rain gear for the entire 4 years, not a single hole. I don't "baby" the gear, just careful with it.

Guess everyone's experience will vary, but light weight has been VERY good for me.

Added: I would agree with SGT Rock about going too light too fast. I was thinking the same thing, but didn't say it. I went with a ULA P2 pack based on two things. VERY positive reviews from anyone who used it and Brian's philosophy of lightening up, yet remaining durable.

Shelter was another area I've eased into the lightweight gear gradually, first going to a GoLite Cave and Nest, then a Speer Hammock and Tarp, now I use either a Gossamer Gear "The One" or Six Moon "Wild Oasis". Part of what I've learned is that a "one size fits all" attitude regarding what gear to take for each trip no longer works. I need to make changes according to the particular terrain and season much more than I used to.

The one area I did jump right in was going from a SVEA stove and cook kit to a pepsi can stove and one much smaller pot with a cozy. This works fantastic in three-season and saves a ton of weight.

However you decide is right for you - HAVE FUN!!!

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 09:50

Still looking to lighten-up even more without becoming fanatical about it.

And that is the main thing.

Ultralight can be a religion for some. But it's not (at least for me) - it's a tool to keep your pack weight sane for what you are doing.

It seems that some people backpack just to have a reason to use their gear. Gearheads. A gearhead can design the ultimate 5 pound base packing list then has to actually go out and hike with it to prove it works. You could say the other thing (which I have seen) where a person gets 75 pounds of great gear and then goes out in the woods in the harshest of conditions to prove to himself that he has got the best gear out there. But that is a Gearhead. To a gearhead it is all about the gear.

So, some people backpack to use their gear. I use my gear to backpack. I think that is what Camping Dave is figuring out now.

JAK

03-08-2009, 10:06

Some of my clothing and gear is heavy, but not my pack.

Camping Dave

03-08-2009, 10:19

So, some people backpack to use their gear. I use my gear to backpack. I think that is what Camping Dave is figuring out now.

You're way off the mark there. I started backpacking 30 years ago, and these days typically spend around 40 nights camping or backpacking per year. Not exactly LD or thru and maybe not equal to your experience, but pretty good for a middle age guy with a full time office job and kids. What I'm learning is that the UL movement produced a mix of good ideas and badly conceived gimmicks.

I will pour the Maker's Mark into a couple of 1pt water bottles. That is a good UL idea.

Grinder

03-08-2009, 10:20

for me, half the fun of hiking is tweaking my gear.

I started out with old stuff I had and it weighed in the low 40's. Climbing was not fun.

The next year, I pared things down to mid thirties. It's all a trade off between camping in comfort and walking in comfort.

In the sleep department I now have a tarp tent and a hammock setup.

I remade my gearskin clone and really like it. I copied the G4 straps

I have dozens of tin can stoves (both alcohol and wood)and a whisperlight gas stove.

This year I'm probably going to be just below 30 with food and water. And my cumulative conditioning allows me to carry it more comfortably.

I now have several different setups that all weigh within a pound or two of each other.

Once you are in you personal ballpark for weight, the details aren't critical, but rather variables to have fun with.

Tipi Walter

03-08-2009, 10:23

Is anybody else out there moving toward heavier gear?

Strange stuff started happening over the last year. I knocked over an alky stove, froze my nuggets off in the mountains of West Virginia when temps dropped from 70 during the day to 25 at night, busted the rear seam out of my Dri Ducks pants and tore them to shreds on the PA Mid State trail, started jogging and knee strengthening exercises, and regularly hiked with a fellow who carries ~40lbs.

This reminds me of a trip report filed by Eric Starling on www.urbanmonarch.com/learning-from-mistakes-minimalist (http://www.urbanmonarch.com/learning-from-mistakes-minimalist) and I'll just quote of bit of it here: (A Kings Lake winter overnighter in Colorado):

"When I finally did turn in the lack of proper gear made itself clear again. I kicked off my boots and wore all of my clothing while in my sleeping bag but it did me no good. Temps went well down to single digits and the 15 degree rating on the sleeping bag was hopelessly optimistic. The whole nght I got less than an hour of sleep and I laid as still as I could in the cold begging the sun to come up again."

"While I look back on the trip fondly there are some things I could have done which would have made the night much more pleasant. The worst part of the trip was trying to get some sleep in a tent that freely let the cold air in and my body heat out. A winter tent would have made it feel 10 degrees warmer in the tent since they can be sealed to keep body heat in and the wind out . . ." ALL QUOTES ERIC STARLING

My response is, why didn't he carry snowshoes, gaiters and a warmer sleeping bag and possibly a beefier four season tent? When he left the house did he think the same conditions would greet him up in the mountains? When he loaded his pack on his back did he imagine the October temps around Kings Mountain might get down to the sngle digits with waist deep snow?

Of course, one could say he made it out alright, nothing to worry about and so he did. What's a sleepless night of shivering anyway? Was that one night worth the lighter pack going in? Anyway, Camping Dave, I sort of related his story to the comment about freezing your nuggets off in West Virginia.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 10:24

You're way off the mark there. I started backpacking 30 years ago, and these days typically spend around 40 nights camping or backpacking per year. Not exactly LD or thru and maybe not equal to your experience, but pretty good for a middle age guy with a full time office job and kids. What I'm learning is that the UL movement produced a mix of good ideas and badly conceived gimmicks.
Well I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean to imply you were learning to pack LOL. If I offended I apologize.

What I meant was you move back to heavier gear was you getting back on the path to what you like to carry to be happy. Gearheads, heavy or light, tend to make you think your gear is not good enough either way. Either it is not bombproof so you can take a blizzard even in July, or it is too heavy and you are going to hurt yourself carrying 10 pounds of stuff. Probably what you mean by bradley conceived gimmicks.

I will pour the Maker's Mark into a couple of 1pt water bottles. That is a good UL idea.
Outstanding.

Have fun.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 10:29

So Tipi, do you carry your 4 season tent and all the same accouterments even in July?

JAK

03-08-2009, 10:45

I have a 2 pound CF Gortex bivy, which is pretty heavy, but I like the way it works. I reduce weight primarily because I am overweight. I count ounces, even pounds, rather than grams. I like my total weight on feet to be under 240 pounds, which is touch when I am at 220. When I hike with my daughter I carry more, but I have to carry here too sometimes, so the less I carry the better. I don't mind tough gear though. Like a pot or mug that doesn't have to be coddled. I might still make one out of a beer can to get the size I want, but a little thicker would be nice. I like making my one gear, but more for the feeling of independance than to save money or weight. The only heavy gear I really learned to hate was my 7 pound backpack. Even my 8 pound tent I still use occassionally, but the backpack saw it last trip a couple of summers ago on a hike with my daughter, and now I can carry more stuff when I hike with her. In time, she will carry more stuff of her own, but for now I enjoy struggling to keep up.

garlic08

03-08-2009, 10:48

It does sound like a case of going too far, like trading in the old work pick-up for a Prius and expecting it to do the same thing. The pendulum swings, and you'll find what works for you. For me, it took three long seasons to get my pack down from high twenties to mid-teens and it was a very rewarding result. I'm still working on details, but have probably bottomed out around ten lb.

Tipi Walter

03-08-2009, 10:51

So Tipi, do you carry your 4 season tent and all the same accouterments even in July?

You know, the worst wind storm I was ever in was on a summer trip at 5000 feet, and yes, I was lucky to be carrying my excessively guyed out four season tent. I really can't describe the wind, it was like an F4 Phantom passing overhead and I had to hold on for dear life from inside the tent. Later someone told me I was caught in a "micro-burst" whatever. I heard it coming about 10 seconds before it hit and it didn't have a good sound to it.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, my summer weight is lighter than my winter.

Same tent but lighter thermarest(much lighter than the beefy winter pad)
No down jacket
No heavier fleece jacket
No heavy Icebreaker merino tops(midlayer)--take silk tops instead
No balaclava
No gloves
A little bit less white gas
No WM Puma bag but a lighter down bag
Few if any candles
No winter goretex rain pants but a much lighter goretex pair
Still carry my merino long john bottoms . . . just in case. . .worn under shorts when hiking in cool temps.

Same pack/food/stove/books/radio/tent/socks/shorts/t-shirt/warm watch cap/and massive amounts of food.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 10:59

Ok so you do change out some stuff for summer. Use gear suited for the season.

My point is this - the guy you posted above didn't bring winter gear. Big mistake when you camp in winter. The guy could of had a tent, inflatable pad, 3 pound sleeping bag, gas stove - and still been miserable. He has to learn these lessons. I bet you were not instantly perfect when you started hiking either. Seems last couple of times I met you in the woods you were talking about your newest gear you just added too.

Even though I am a light guy I have winter gear. It is something you learn. You equate UL guys with guys unprepared for everything that can happen. Even a guy with a tent and great sleeping bag can be un-prepared. And even a guy that hikes with a 35 pound pack can be prepared.

JAK

03-08-2009, 11:04

I don't use a tent in winter. I just sleep under spruce trees. Lots of clothes though.
I have two winter modes and I like both. One is on skis, where I need to reduce weight.
The other is heavier trudging, sometimes with a toboggan or sled. Still no tent though.
Both are traditional. Lots of traditions to choose from.

I would like to try a proper winter tent and wood stove some day.
Also, if I ever sleep above the treeline as Tipi does I would like a tent for that.

4eyedbuzzard

03-08-2009, 11:37

I don't necessarily like carrying heavier gear. I like the way it performs compared to many of the lighter weight substitutes available, and am therefore willing to accept that penalty/weight cost as my preference. I think we're reaching a much flatter area on the curve of diminishing returns with a lot of hiking gear, especially when you factor in the cost of some of the more exotic materials. How much lighter can we make a sleeping bag that already uses < 1 oz/yd material and 850 fill down without sacrificing needed real world performance? For example, we can lose 1/2 the zipper, but then suffer with the lack of versatility a full zip provides. Is the 2 to 3 oz in zipper and thread weight saved worth it? Many people don't think so. From an economic perspective, we can buy a 20 deg Campmor bag that weighs 2 lbs, 6 oz for $120, but to lose 6 to 8 oz results in a WM bag that costs $400 or so. Is the 6 oz savings worth close to $300 to many hikers, given that we all live in a world of limited resources and income? How much lighter can we make a pack and still provide reasonable durability, lifespan, and load control/transfer? We can make a < 1lb pack, but most find it uncomfortable when filled with even just 20 lbs of food, gear, and water. It just doesn't deliver the performance preference desired by most people. There seems to be a performance/weight compromise reached in the 2 to 3.5 lb range with currently available materials. Similar compromises go for clothing, cookware, and all the other stuff. Manufacturers are pushing the limits on materials and design, and a lot of the more exotic stuff at the edge of design limits ultimately proves not to perform as we would like it to in the real world for a variety of reasons, most notably our performance preferences, durability, and cost concerns. I think there will be some minor improvements in coming years relating to making some of these designs perform better, but they won't be near in magnitude to what we saw in weight reduction from the days of Dick Kelty's first pack to present. To a large degree I think the revolution/evolution in gear weight is nearing some limits beyond which it will simply no longer significantly progress for a long time.

rickb

03-08-2009, 12:00

It seems that some people backpack just to have a reason to use their gear.

Better to take up diving. You get to strap a knife to your leg.

Little stuff adds up, but I will never go back to a Photon or other miserably deficient light after getting a Fenix L2D (http://www.fenixlight.com/flashlight/fenixl2d.htm).

It may weigh more, but nothing like jacking owls and toothier critters in camp before they are within striking distance.

Plus it has this pulsating mode that you can use to screw with people talking about gear in a shelter.

:eek:

skinewmexico

03-08-2009, 12:01

Be adaptable, and use what works.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 12:04

Hooah. Hated those photons. I got me a SPOT - but not that PLB version.

http://www.ems.com/catalog/product_detail_square.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8455 24442588409&emssrcid=GoogleBase

JAK

03-08-2009, 12:10

If you carry fewer items also, they can be a little more rugged and durable.
I also like the feel of natural materials, or common everyday materials.

Hardwood hiking staff. Stainless mug. Aluminum Pot but thick enough to kick around some. Maybe a heavy spoon that fits the hand better. Maybe a wooden bowl. Maybe some leather pouches and stuff. My compass is metal and I made a new leather pouch after losing the original. That kind of stuff grows on you.

Frosty

03-08-2009, 12:10

Espousing carrying heavy gear - choosing gear because it is heavy and refusing to carry gear because it is light - is plain dumb. Ditto choosing every piece of geare based only on weight.

Pretty much every piece of gear comes in multiple sizes, forms and shapes.

It is up to each hiker to weigh the relative merits of comfort, safety, utility, etc. and balance them against his or her own wants, needs, and tendencies.

Generally speaking, it is more comfortable to walk carrying 20 pounds than 50 pounds, so blasting light-weight gear because it is lightweight is silly. Carrying flimsy gear or not having adequate gear can be life-threatening is some situations.

But there is a wide middle ground, and there is nothing wrong with a mix and match approach to gear selection. Just figure out what your needs are.

What are you hiking goals, as SGT Rock alluded to?

If you like to camp, and look forward more to camping than walking the trail, if you like to stop early in the day and lounge around camp, and leave late after hanging around camp in the morning, then light weight while hiking is of less importance than camp comfort. Take a camp chair, camp shoes, big tent, lanterns, etc etc and if they are heavy, don't worry about it. Youk won't be walking with it on your back all that much anyway.

If you start hiking at dawn and hike until dusk, and see camping as resting up so you can hike the next day, all that camping paraphenalia is counter productive. Lighten the load so you can do more of what you enjoy, walking in the woods.

Carry enough to be safe, but don't confuse safety with comfort. The OP changed gear when he got cold one night. To me, being cold a night or two is a sign that I am at the right place. If I am never cold any night, then I feel I am carrying too much clothing/sleeping bag. I don't feel the need to carry an extra 2-3 pounds every day for two weeks so I won't be chilly one or two nights. My most used bags are a WM Badger and Megalite, and and an SD -25* bag. I don't carry the -25* bag if the temp might dip to 10* and I might be chilly a night or two in the Badger, nor do I carry the Badger in the summer. Yeah, I've been cold in the Megalite, but never in danger. I would not try to save weight by carrying the Megalite in winter.

I don't understand the bashing of light weight gear or heavy weight gear. Everyone has a wide range of gear to choose from, and you don't need to go to the far left or the far right.

Because me knees are bad, I go as light as I can, my 1 1/4# Gossamer Gear Mariposa pack works for me as well as my 7# Jansport external frame pack. No, it is not as convenient being a top loader, but my knees know the difference. (On a weekend hike not too far in, to a favorite camping spot, or going to Carter Notch hut with my gear and my wife's, that's when I use the Jansport.)

OTOH, I carry a 2 1/2 pound, nice and thick Big agnes sleeping pad and often a second thermorest pad as well because I have arthritis and cannot sleep unless my hip is well cushioned.

To me, there is no problem carrying 4 pounds of sleeping pad because it works for me, yet I would never carry an eight pound tent. Too heavy for my needs. Bivy? Too small. Tarp tent? Meets my minimal camping needs and because it is light, I can get one a bit bigger (so I'm comfy enough to spend a rain day in it) and still be kind to my knees.

There are so many choices out there today compared to the 70's it is hard to imagine why everyone cannot build a kit that fits his or her needs exactly.

JAK

03-08-2009, 12:14

I tend to be goal oriented also, but some stuff just feels right. I am rather particular about spoons. They don't have to be heavy but they definitely need to feel right. Most of my weight savings is by having less stuff, and I hate heavy packs, but then I might carry a 2 pound stick.

Frosty

03-08-2009, 12:15

I also like the feel of natural materials, or common everyday materials.Having backpacked in the "good ol' days" with canvas, leather, cotton, wool and oil cloth, I like the feel of polypro and silnylon. :D

On the other hand, I kind of feel bad for younger hikers who never lopped off a couple dozen hemlock boughs with his camp hatchet to make a "browse bed" under his sleeping bag. Not that I would ever do it again, but it sure was comfy and smelled nice.

tuswm

03-08-2009, 12:18

. I find myself on the internet looking at white gas stoves too.

I live near you and I also spend alot of time hiking in the winter months. Hiking UL in the summer is much more pleasant then trying not to die in a 6 oz quilt when it -5. I will say that I gave up on canister stoves for sinter hiking. I even tried the MRS reactor but it the canister was cold and not full even that didn't work well. So I went to the simmerlite. I know its bigger and more complicated and its twice the weight but its now my only winter stove.

Also about your knees liking the pack with the real frame, that frame might keep your spine aligned better, if that is the case then your pelvis would also be aligned. when you pelvis is misaligned so are your femurs which in turn screw up your knees. very possible.

JAK

03-08-2009, 12:26

I like nylon also, and polyester fleece. I consider those common everyday materials.
I might try a rain cape of some natural material someday. Not sure what. Wool maybe.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 12:28

4eyedbuzzard

03-08-2009, 12:34

...It is up to each hiker to weigh the relative merits of comfort, safety, utility, etc. and balance them against his or her own wants, needs, and tendencies.
Or in other words, HYOH:D

There are so many choices out there today compared to the 70's it is hard to imagine why everyone cannot build a kit that fits his or her needs exactly.
I think most do. What's interesting is the amount of criticism they sometimes receive for doing so.:(

Perhaps we are all just spoiled by too much free time and too many choices.

JAK

03-08-2009, 12:46

I have a certain nostalgia for the 70s, but I tend to look back a little further for inspiration. I like commenting on why we make the choices that we do. We have all suffered the consequences of consumer marketing. There is nothing wrong with rebelling against the expensive crap people try and sell us, and we all buy now and then.

If people get offended when I complain about stupid products, so be it.

JAK

03-08-2009, 12:49

JAK

03-08-2009, 12:52

The best gear is the gear people make for themselves.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 12:54

Or in other words, HYOH:D

I think most do. What's interesting is the amount of criticism they sometimes receive for doing so.:(

Perhaps we are all just spoiled by too much free time and too many choices.

Great points.

Context is missing. People get wrapped around the axle because they see things from their own perspective. The Internet magnifies the experience.

People on the Internet lose context. Everyone is not the same. But Gearheads tend to only see things from their own perspective on gear. Be it light, heavy, or any other level in-between. Everyone is different.

for instance: I have a hard time giving people clothing advice because you don't know that person and how they hack weather. So while I would never go out with just fleece - some people are fine with that. I've seen people freezing in 45 degree weather wearing everything they have in their pack, and I have seen folks fine walking around in the snow wearing shorts. I assume when I see their clothing list they kind of know what works for them. I can give a couple of pointers, but I see long underwear on their list and I say "check".

You can apply that to any number of things like stoves and shelters.

I wouldn't ever use a JetBoil and I cannot stand being inside tents anymore. Other people love them. If Camping Dave would have shown me his initial list of Hennie Pot, Tarp, G4, etc I wouldn't have told him anything was wrong with that. I have to assume that in context he has played with this stuff and knows if it works for him. It would have been assumptive for me to say "G4 packs will get you killed" because he may have carried it for 2,000 miles. I ould have said that out of context.

If you showed me your gear list and I saw you have a shelter, pack, stove, etc. - unless something really freaking odd pokes out (like a 7 pound tent for a solo thru) then I just go check, check, check, check. I have no clue what Big Agness Speedhouse is like or if you would like it. I only own one inflatable pad so I have no clue on some of these new pads statistics - but I assume you know whether you would prefer a 3/4 or full pad.

Gearheads are different. They know the stats on every tent, bag, pad, stove, etc.

Heck - I know some cool stuff on stoves, but stop trying to even talk about it years ago because stovie gearheads got too contentious. Try telling someone with a JetBoil it isn't all that and a bag of peanuts.

So anyhow. That long rambling post gets me back to my point. Context. Deciding someones gear is wrong for them is pretty darn assumptive. Give the hiker some credit he is picking stuff based on how he likes to hike. Jack Tarlin (a heavy guy) taught me that one.:D

Tipi Walter

03-08-2009, 12:57

I would like to try a proper winter tent and wood stove some day.
Also, if I ever sleep above the treeline as Tipi does I would like a tent for that.

I've done some open bald camping in the winter but I've never slept above treeline. "Above treeline" is not really a term that is used in the TN/NC mountains, as far as I know.

Manufacturers are pushing the limits on materials and design, and a lot of the more exotic stuff at the edge of design limits ultimately proves not to perform as we would like it to in the real world for a variety of reasons, most notably our performance preferences, durability, and cost concerns.

I think this is what Camping Dave was talking about in regards to his "badly conceived gimmicks" comment.

MOWGLI

03-08-2009, 13:00

"Above treeline" is not really a term that is used in the TN/NC mountains, as far as I know.

Correct. No treeline down here. Gotta go all the way to NH on the AT to find that. Moosilauke is the first area "above treeline" on the AT.

Fiddleback

03-08-2009, 13:08

My concept of UL is that it's about comfort...the comfort of carrying a lighter load. But there are many variables of trail comfort. Those that first come to my mind are; staying warm when it's cold and cool when it's hot, having a stomach full of tasty food, lying down, sleeping well and feeling good when I get up without a stiff back. I could also argue that 'convenience' is a different kind comfort...perhaps it's more emotional than physical but 'simple' things and procedures often 'feel good' to me. Another emotional comfort is the amount of money spent although, for me, that seems always in flux. But we all have different priorities and will weigh the different comfort variables differently, no pun intended.:rolleyes:

However, built into any approach to backpacking is the necessity of safety. Nothing in a backpacker's method or his/her gear should compromise safety. While many may stretch the limits of gear vs. the conditions to be faced, there must be a line drawn at some point. To me, if an ultralighter puts him/herself into an unsafe condition resulting from cutting weight from the pack he/she has done UL wrong.

So there it is for me...do my attempts at UL make me feel good/keep me comfortable and am I safe? Whatever change I pursue I must have a "yes" answer to those questions otherwise I won't make the change. But that all leads to multiple questions because of those multiple comfort variables. Yeah, I can find a lighter shelter than my Hennessy hammock but it's unlikely I'm going to sleep as comfortably. I don't have to carry a stove and eat hot meals but I sure would miss those meals and my caffeine jolt in the moring. I could carry a lighter jacket but, given that it's part of my sleep system and I hate to be cold when I'm trying to sleep, I won't. I could leave the camera and the iPod at home but they already are the result of downsizing...the digital, super zoom camera gives me twice the focal range at one third the weight of the 35mm I use to carry and the iPod is a small part of the weight of the Reader's Digest that was always in my pack (but I did loose the multi-use of the mag's pages providing tinder for a fire:o). So all the things I do impact on each other...all things are interconnected...the entire pack and what I wear is one big system. Change one item and the impact of the other items probably change.

And then there's just me. I know what I like and what makes me feel good. Despite my attempts to cut pack weight and despite their seemingly too heavy scale readings, it's unlikely I'll ever drop my SmartWool base layer that I sleep in. They just feel soooo good when I slip into them after cleaning off the day's trail grime (so I won't be dropping the wash-up items either). So...in my mind, I'm a UL pretender at 12-14lbs base weight but I'm also luxuriating in my oh-so-soft base layer while listening to stories and music on the mp3 player. My attempts at UL have resulted in the best ever nights' sleep on the trail, the best menu, and the lightest load I've ever hoofed down a trail.

Safety and then the many factors of comfort...always with the memory of my gang's camping motto when we were in Scouts, "Any fool can be uncomfortable."

FB

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:10

Open bald camping. I'll remember that. I'm already losing the hair so I'm halfway there already.

I guess it is hard to say what is gimmicky and overly market driven and what isn't.
Some stuff is obviously so. Most probably depends on your perspective.

I think we can all agree that 90% is crap. We just don't agree on what is in the other 10%.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 13:15

I guess it is hard to say what is gimmicky and overly market driven and what isn't. Some stuff is obviously so. Most probably depends on your perspective.
Exactly. I think the JetBoil (and then the clones) is obviously open marked driven gimmick. Many people love them.:cool:

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:21

I would say that there is still alot more heavy crap than light crap. Also, alot more expensive crap than inexpensive crap. Others might disagree. Alot of presumably 'high quality' gear is seriously overcomplicated and overbuilt. Again, others might disagree, and I don't mind one or two items like that myself.

It's crazy some gifts you get for hiking. I got a foldable chair. I take it to the beach. Then I get some stuff like really a nice wool sweaters and they freak when I tell them how great it will be in the woods. I've been dealing with alot of this stuff since before I started hiking though. Sometimes its very frustrating when people don't get the way you think.

4eyedbuzzard

03-08-2009, 13:23

People say "why not just let people make their own choices."

Well, if everyone did that, there wouldn't be so much marketing and advertising, and there probably would be less of a problem.

Citizens should discuss amongst themselves what the best choices are. Lets not leave it all up to them.

That citizen's discussion occurs every day in the marketplace. In the long run, products that don't meet consumer demands ultimately fail. Those that do succeed. Honestly, there isn't any evil conspiracy. It is a lot more profitable for a business to simply produce an item that suits its purpose and is chosen by its virtues by consumers than it is to create artificial demand via some sort of nefarious marketing plan. And while there are some unscrupulous marketers out there, consumers are hardly the innocent prey many make them out to be. We are incredibly cynical and selective when to comes to advertising due to our constant exposure to it.

It is very difficult to market any product, largely because of our affluence as a society-there are just so many choices. And we are bombarded non-stop by the marketing of those products. Cutting through that "clutter" is incredibly hard for businesses. And unfortunately, that generally leads to more avertising "clutter". Marketing/advertising people liken it to spraying roaches-the more you spray them, the more you need in the future to have an effect.

Home made gear may not represent the most efficient choice for many people. As somone who doesn't sew well or already own a sewing machine, it is likely more efficient for me to trade the income gained from my work, where I have a comparative advantage due to my specialized skills, for a pack manufactured by someone else, who by nature of their specialized skills, possesses a comparative advantage relative to me.

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:27

I like certain features of the Jetboil, like its heat exchangers and stuff, but also prefer simpler solutions that work better.

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:29

That citizen's discussion occurs every day in the marketplace. In the long run, products that don't meet consumer demands ultimately fail. Those that do succeed. Honestly, there isn't any evil conspiracy. It is a lot more profitable for a business to simply produce an item that suits its purpose and is chosen by its virtues by consumers than it is to create artificial demand via some sort of nefarious marketing plan. And while there are some unscrupulous marketers out there, consumers are hardly the innocent prey many make them out to be. We are incredibly cynical and selective when to comes to advertising due to our constant exposure to it.

It is very difficult to market any product, largely because of our affluence as a society-there are just so many choices. And we are bombarded non-stop by the marketing of those products. Cutting through that "clutter" is incredibly hard for businesses. And unfortunately, that generally leads to more avertising "clutter". Marketing/advertising people liken it to spraying roaches-the more you spray them, the more you need in the future to have an effect.

Home made gear may not represent the most efficient choice for many people. As somone who doesn't sew well or already own a sewing machine, it is likely more efficient for me to trade the income gained from my work, where I have a comparative advantage due to my specialized skills, for a pack manufactured by someone else, who by nature of their specialized skills, possesses a comparative advantage relative to me.I don't have so much faith in the marketplace. I will never give it a blank cheque.

I like to place my faith in other things, like materials, and science, and nature, and reason.

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:31

Especially today's marketplace, with such large corporations, and mass media. It's nuts.

Hiking should take us away from that, and help us think more clearly.

warraghiyagey

03-08-2009, 13:32

Every peice of my gear is canvas with waterproof wax. I never get wet. It's a little heavy at times and uncomfortable, especially the shorts and socks. . . but I manage. . . :)

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:34

I don't need people to stop buying them to figure out that $500 Far West Jackets are fashion, not function.

JAK

03-08-2009, 13:37

Even if you did believe the Market works for hiking gear and clothing,
how do you separate fashion from function?

It's not a matter of being cynical. It's a matter of reason.
Some people might depend on others to make functional choices. Thankfully, I don't.

Yeah, I make some aesthetic choices also, and mix the two, but I like to make those choices myself also.

4eyedbuzzard

03-08-2009, 13:51

I don't have so much faith in the marketplace. I will never give it a blank cheque.
The alternatives that have been tried, command economies such as the USSR, haven't proved particulary efficient nor sustainable.

I like to place my faith in other things, like materials, and science, and nature, and reason.
Others use largely the same criteria, yet come to choose different consumer preferences than you. I think you tend to impose your own consumer preference as more desireable on a large scale, by assuming yours are somehow fundamentally more reasonable than the preferences of others.

garlic08

03-08-2009, 13:59

It's crazy some gifts you get for hiking.

Now that got me laughing. I always cringe when a friend hands me something saying, "Here, this is for your hike."

4eyedbuzzard

03-08-2009, 13:59

Even if you did believe the Market works for hiking gear and clothing,
how do you separate fashion from function?

I separate fashion vs function in my own choices. But I don't and can't choose for others. People buy what they want to buy. If they want to be more fashionable or colorful than I in the woods who am I to judge their choice? As to function, whether or not someone cooks on a cat can stove with an old beer can or chooses an MSR reactor, that is simply a different preference. Both work. They trade their labor and incur the carrying costs as well. For some circumstances, a Reactor may be a fine choice. For hiking the AT in the summer it is likely not, and most hikers will likely come to that conclusion(too heavy and overkill for purpose).

Camping Dave

03-08-2009, 14:10

Also about your knees liking the pack with the real frame, that frame might keep your spine aligned better, if that is the case then your pelvis would also be aligned. when you pelvis is misaligned so are your femurs which in turn screw up your knees. very possible.

You hit the nail on the head there: better posture as a result of not shifting the load on my shoulders. Footwear helped too. Trading out the soft bottomed Saucony trail runners for the ol' stiff soled Montrail boots eased the strain of those central PA rocks.

I think this is what Camping Dave was talking about in regards to his "badly conceived gimmicks" comment.

One thing I had particularly in mind was the frameless pack. A G4 with a Z-rest in the pad pocket AND a rolled up blue pad in the pack body really just does not transfer weight to your hips. The hipbelt stops the pack from swaying and that's about it.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my gear experience. Judging by the proliferation of frames, hoops, and stays that UL pack designers are advertising these days, it seems safe to assume that I'm not the only person who thinks heavier packs are worth the weight.

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 14:31

One thing I had particularly in mind was the frameless pack. A G4 with a Z-rest in the pad pocket AND a rolled up blue pad in the pack body really just does not transfer weight to your hips. The hipbelt stops the pack from swaying and that's about it.

That was my experience with the GG packs. I really did not like them at all. I've tried some other framless packs that do this much better.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my gear experience. Judging by the proliferation of frames, hoops, and stays that UL pack designers are advertising these days, it seems safe to assume that I'm not the only person who thinks heavier packs are worth the weight.
It seems these are options for folks that want them. From what I have seen it is more in response to people using ultralight packs for loads larger than they were intially intended for. The pack makers are now trying to find that happy medium too from the 8 pound bomb packs to the 12 ounce schoolbags.

mark schofield

03-08-2009, 14:46

I started with a small closed cell foam pad, then to full legnth thermarest, then to a 3/4 standard thermarest, then to a 3/4 prolite 3. Last year I went back to my 3/4 standard thermarest. And this year I ordered a POE Ether 6 inflatable. My basic filled pack weight has gone down, but a few things I'm going back to for comfort.

Blissful

03-08-2009, 16:23

We have found the solid suspension frame of a pack is better on my hubby's back (he has a herniated disk). Sometimes heavier on certain items is better.

Blissful

03-08-2009, 16:24

My basic filled pack weight has gone down, but a few things I'm going back to for comfort.

Absolutely. I want and need my sleep. Which is why I take my BA insulated air core and my cocoon pillows. But I did get a lightweight down bag - going to try it out in April, hope it works ok.

Mags

03-08-2009, 18:11

I used to pack in a bottle of wine. Then I realized boxed wines are much lighter.

warraghiyagey

03-08-2009, 19:13

I used to pack in a bottle of wine. Then I realized boxed wines are much lighter.
Indeed. . . and can actually be easily trasferred to your platypus. . .:sun

Blissful

03-08-2009, 19:18

Indeed. . . and can actually be easily trasferred to your platypus. . .:sun

Do that and your warranty is void!!!!!! :D

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 19:21

I use a platy for bourbon. When you use it the flask gets smaller. Too cool.

JAK

03-08-2009, 19:21

warraghiyagey

03-08-2009, 19:28

Do that and your warranty is void!!!!!! :D
Uh -oh . . .
:D

BTW - nice (not) to see some good old ridiculous arguing on a perfectly innocuous thread. I'm sure the internet has plenty of sites and forums devoted entirely to arguing like snitty school children about capitalism and such. . .

JAK

03-08-2009, 19:34

The alternatives that have been tried, command economies such as the USSR, haven't proved particulary efficient nor sustainable.

Others use largely the same criteria, yet come to choose different consumer preferences than you. I think you tend to impose your own consumer preference as more desireable on a large scale, by assuming yours are somehow fundamentally more reasonable than the preferences of others.

You hit the nail on the head there: better posture as a result of not shifting the load on my shoulders. Footwear helped too. Trading out the soft bottomed Saucony trail runners for the ol' stiff soled Montrail boots eased the strain of those central PA rocks.

One thing I had particularly in mind was the frameless pack. A G4 with a Z-rest in the pad pocket AND a rolled up blue pad in the pack body really just does not transfer weight to your hips. The hipbelt stops the pack from swaying and that's about it.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my gear experience. Judging by the proliferation of frames, hoops, and stays that UL pack designers are advertising these days, it seems safe to assume that I'm not the only person who thinks heavier packs are worth the weight.A pack does not have to be heavy to transfer pack weight to your hips, or to be comfortable, or stable, or durable. Its all in the way it is designed and out together and packed and worn. Its less critical with 20 pounds, than with 60 pounds, but if you want to carry 60 pounds as well with a 2 pound pack as a 6 pound pack you could. Nothing magical about the extra 4 pounds. Its just easier to build them and sell them heavier, and the extra material and labour doesn't add that much cost. For someone purely interested in function, and willing to go through the extra effort to reduce 60 pounds to 56 pounds, it can be done, but you are not going to get alot of help from gear manufacturers looking for profit. Why should they? Its really not there job, unless all consumers suddenly become more like engineers, and that will never happen. That is not the nature of our species.

Petr

03-08-2009, 19:35

That citizen's discussion occurs every day in the marketplace. In the long run, products that don't meet consumer demands ultimately fail. Those that do succeed. Honestly, there isn't any evil conspiracy. It is a lot more profitable for a business to simply produce an item that suits its purpose and is chosen by its virtues by consumers than it is to create artificial demand via some sort of nefarious marketing plan. And while there are some unscrupulous marketers out there, consumers are hardly the innocent prey many make them out to be. We are incredibly cynical and selective when to comes to advertising due to our constant exposure to it.

It is very difficult to market any product, largely because of our affluence as a society-there are just so many choices. And we are bombarded non-stop by the marketing of those products. Cutting through that "clutter" is incredibly hard for businesses. And unfortunately, that generally leads to more avertising "clutter". Marketing/advertising people liken it to spraying roaches-the more you spray them, the more you need in the future to have an effect.

Home made gear may not represent the most efficient choice for many people. As somone who doesn't sew well or already own a sewing machine, it is likely more efficient for me to trade the income gained from my work, where I have a comparative advantage due to my specialized skills, for a pack manufactured by someone else, who by nature of their specialized skills, possesses a comparative advantage relative to me.

My favorite post among many good ones in this rare thread that, while not particularly original in its content, has a group of people engaging in a friendly argument in an intelligent way and about a relevant topic. It's an internet miracle.

Mags

03-08-2009, 19:37

Indeed. . . and can actually be easily trasferred to your platypus. . .:sun

Indeed. Dual use. Once you empty the wine bladder, it makes a great water bladder (Seriously!)

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 19:44

Indeed. Dual use. Once you empty the wine bladder, it makes a great water bladder (Seriously!)
Cool. I never thought of that.

Hey Mags - how big is your food bag?

Petr

03-08-2009, 19:50

Its really not there job, unless all consumers suddenly become more like engineers, and that will never happen. That is not the nature of our species.

And thank god for that. HYOH. I've got no beef with engineers, in fact my best friend got his degree in mechanical engineering before he decided it wasn't for him and went back to school. Engineers are wonderful people for creating efficient, well thought-out solutions for challenges we confront, but they're not exactly famous for appreciating the quirky, human side of things. My buddy had to take a course that taught him how to write those instruction manuals that come with any electronic device or "put-it-together-yourself" pieces of furniture. This course taught him how to remove any human "voice" from the instructions, presumably because we all operate as robots when we try to follow instructions. I have to venture that if our society was made up of engineers, than it wouldn't be a whole lotta fun, all that interesting, and I can promise that the arts, the useless expression of functionless creativity, would die a quick death.

One of my favorite authors once defined "aesthetics" as beauty without function, and explained that only the truely useless can be purely beautiful in that it has no other purpose to corrupt it. I feel like this is somehow tangentially germane to the conversation at hand. I think some hikers derive more pleasure from efficiency and others from eccentricities: again, HYOH.

I think JAK is interesting in that he does both, which I think is really the best idea for most of us. He's focused on weight, but also retains some "overweight" items because he subjectively enjoys the feel of them which enhances his enjoyment of his hike. Bravo.

Mags

03-08-2009, 20:01

Cool. I never thought of that.

Hey Mags - how big is your food bag?

VERY BIG. :) (XL-Sea to Summit bag..not sure how bag that is? )...

Remember all that food I bought? I ended the trail with 2 Snicker bars total!

EDIT: Through the magic of Google, I found a similar size/brand to the one I use. Looks like an XL stuff sack is ~10x20 inches..all full of food. :)

sarbar

03-08-2009, 20:07

I don't find it odd - you have to find the comfortable middle ground. I went very UL then slowly bumped my gear to what was comfortable but not heavy. I have a few luxuries but not the old days either of 45 lbs ;-)

SGT Rock

03-08-2009, 20:11

VERY BIG. :) (XL-Sea to Summit bag..not sure how bag that is? )...

Remember all that food I bought? I ended the trail with 2 Snicker bars total!

EDIT: Through the magic of Google, I found a similar size/brand to the one I use. Looks like an XL stuff sack is ~10x20 inches..all full of food. :)
You did do some eating. When you left you had food in that bag from top to bottom and outside too.

But the size you carry is about what I remembered. I've got a very similar bag. We were just talking about Ursack on another thread and I realized they were only 8" x 13" and I'd need 2 or 3 of them to go hiking.

Talking about going heavy - biggest thing I carry is my food bag and the Ursack ain't going to cut it.

Lets hear it for heavy packing - food that is!:cool:

skinewmexico

03-08-2009, 20:56

Picking on engineers. What is the world coming to?

Summit

03-08-2009, 21:55

Middle of the road works best for me. I'm not about competing for the lightest kit on the trail. I'm about putting together the kit that's right for me and what optimizes my hiking experience. I'll cut weight where it makes sense and I'll forgo cutting weight where I find pleasure/value in that extra weight.

With that philosophy, my basic pack weight with 7 days of food is about 35 lbs today. I tend to do one week, 75 miles or so treks twice a year. That's what my work and family commitment allows. Doing a week hike, I prefer to carry all my food and not worry about reprovisioning every 4-5 days like I would if thru hiking. I also do several other 3 day treks during the year. That 35 lbs is down from 55-60 lbs several years ago due to some equipment upgrades. The weight reduction feels awesome but I have no burning desire to see how low I can go. A balance between smart, light weight gear and comfort and pleasure in camp defines the weight and what I carry.

Powder River

03-08-2009, 23:08

I try to find the absolute lightest items I can afford in any category where it does not impede on comfort or performance, and the rest of my pack might be moderate/durable/comfortable items at a slight weight gain. For example, I'm happy to pay more money for a 850 fill down bag vs a synthetic or lower quality down bag, because it is lighter yet still keeps me just as warm. I will buy the new thermarest to shave 5 ounces and gain 1.5 inches of comfort, but I would never go to an even lighter blue foam mat because I wouldn't be able to sleep on it. (I tried the 2/3 length ridge rest and learned my lesson) I bought a tarptent to save weight, yet drew the line at sacrificing bug netting and a floor.

On the other hand I upgraded my .9 ounce Petzl e+lite to a regular 3.5 ounce version, because the e+lite was kind of a joke when it came to illumating anything. I carry aluminum vs carbon trekking poles because I know someone who was injured when her pole shattered last year. I stick to my canister stove because I am not patient enough to wait for an alky stove to boil. I carry a 3.5 lb pack because I like the comfort, and the ability to carry LOTS of food.

So for me, the "new fangled" stuff is often the solution, as long as the performance and comfort gains are all in the plus column. Technology is a wonderful thing, and sometimes there IS such thing having and eating your cake. I want to be light and comfortable, and well prepared. Sometimes the extra cost is the price tag, and sometimes it is the physical weight.

JAK

03-09-2009, 00:44

Another thing in favour of heavy gear, and this is partly aesthetic and partly practical,
is that it is nice to have gear that could be used for long extended expedition, perhaps in more demanding conditions, even if there is a good chance you may never do so. If your intent is at least to prepare for such a trip, then it makes sense to aquire and become familiar with such equipment through use.

So if you have some sort of adventure in mind, whether it is a mountaineering expedition, or an arctic expedition, or some sort of extended backwoods survival expedition, or long thru-hikes with up to 14 days between resupply, then it makes sense to equip yourself for such an adventure, and practice with that equipment. That doesn't mean a winter bag and snowshoes in summer, but it might mean tougher stuff than neccessary for most trips, and a larger and heavier pack than neccessary, and even practicing with larger loads when not really needed. As long as it doesn't cause harm, and weaken you for you quest rather than strengthen you, this is logical.

Not everything needs to be logical either, but this would be logical.

Camping Dave

03-09-2009, 10:10

Yeah, some of these posts are a lot like my thoughts. I carried about a 12lb summer base for the last 3 years. Turns out a framed pack and a few extra or heavier items work out a lot better.

hoz

03-09-2009, 12:18

I have a Gust clone, but my goto pack is my old Rivendell Jensen. The original frameless pack.

http://rivendellmountainworks.com/images/index/packprofile_alt1.jpg

http://rivendellmountainworks.com/

Tipi Walter

03-09-2009, 12:40

Now that's what a pack is supposed to look like!! And check out this website:
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Rivendell-1.html

I love the look of the Jenson pack, and here's a few facts:

**they have two models, the Jensen and the Giant.
**they go from 3000 to 3241 cubic inches for the Jensen to 4321 to 4610 cubic inches for the Giant.
**Weights empty are from 2 to 2.6 pounds for the Jensen and 2.6 to 2.10 pounds for the Giant.
**aluminum waist buckle and leather accessory patches and shoulder strap attachments.
**extra 240 cubic inch side pockets.

kyhipo

03-09-2009, 12:46

FamilyGuy

03-09-2009, 12:52

Tipi Walter

03-09-2009, 12:58

Wow. The Grandfather of the Golite Jam and Pinnacle.

With respect to the fabric, will it wick moisture well or absorb it?

As far as I can tell, the Rivendell pack is made using 11oz 1000 denier uncoated cordura. "We do not claim the pack is waterproof--no fabric pack is--but you can minimize water penetration of seams by applying seam sealant . . ." Quoted from their website. Does cordura wick moisture. I'd say so.

JAK

03-09-2009, 13:32

hoz

03-09-2009, 13:36

It isn't "waterproof", if you hike in the pouring rain I'd recommend a pack cover.

I have a medium Jensen with the add on pockets. In my climbing days we carried 50+ lb loads. Rope and rack tied on top, pad tied on back. Sleeping bag in the lower compartment that functions as a built in waist belt.

In the mid 70's I had to modify the lower compartment as my new EMS hollofill bag would not fit in there. I added a halfmoon piece of Cordura to the lower compartment and also a couple compression straps and a sternum strap. The buckles for the webbing are the old steel toothed sliders! No plastic buckles back then.

Some care must be taken on loading the Jensen. Soft stuff towards your back. Then she hugs you like a long lost lover and rides like cloud!

hoz

03-09-2009, 13:39

Now that's what a pack is supposed to look like!! And check out this website:
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Rivendell-1.html

I love looking at that Old Gear site. That guy has done some good work researching the history of hiking/climbing gear.

And his pages are definitely gear porn....

FamilyGuy

03-09-2009, 14:18

Some care must be taken on loading the Jensen. Soft stuff towards your back. Then she hugs you like a long lost lover and rides like cloud!

This is exactly why I have starting to use Frameless packs.

How did it feel with 50 lbs?!?!??!

hoz

03-09-2009, 14:25

I was much younger then, still, I remember a "ooofffff" and an "ahhhhh" once I got her up on my back!

Christus Cowboy

03-09-2009, 14:43

[quote=Camping Dave;797031]....What I'm learning is that the UL movement produced a mix of good ideas and badly conceived gimmicks.../quote]

Jaks and I were addressing a similar issue regarding the weight of Lowe Alpine packs on another thread where Jaks and I addressed the issue of people being taken in by the market appeal of gear rather than functionality. Whether it is the ultra lighter who puts an ounce saved over functionality or the heavier gear guys that put aesthetics over functionality, the end result is the same which is gear that winds up in the closet.... Jaks has probably done a better job on reducing weight than I have as I'm still on the heavy side (generally 35 to 40lbs.) but I am always looking for REASONABLE ways to reduce weight....

With me I try to balance comfort while hiking verses comfort in camp.... and that balance seems to change the older I get....

medicjimr

03-09-2009, 15:07

I am still a newbie and I am slowly getting the weight down some allot of my weight now is clothing which I will slowly aquire lighter I even stopped at a good will store looking but 38 waist was'nt popular another reason to drop weight. What I have found out as many so far that light weight cost a whole lot more. I just got a new pack not light weight but functional Kelty Red cloud 5600 liked the layout and the price $109 last years model. it weighs 6.5 lbs but I can orginize my gear and keeps my gear in good shape. I would like a less weight/ bulk sleeping bag Now I have a Big Agnes 15 degree enchantment another 5 lbs but I am closterfobic in a mummy. So I had to weigh my options I am thinking next someday of a montbell hugger in down when I hit the lottery lol. But for now until I find my groove I will stick with the 35-45 lb pack weight. This will come also when I find out if i am a all day backpacker or a half day/ camper that will let me know more of the direction I need to be.

JAK

03-09-2009, 15:16

I wonder why is it that even since prehistoric times, people always seemed to put something artistic into what they were making, even stuff that was purely functional. That's something I need to think about some more next time I am in the woods. I like the idea of doing diy projects out there also, maybe using some natural materials from the woods in addition to what I have brought in for the purpose. I'll try and see if I can get a glimpse of something as I build whatever it is I am working on. Something as simple as a hiking stick might be a good start. I would like to build an Otzi type pack sometime also. I think you would have to be patient and go through alot of trial and error and not rush things to much to really get somewhere. Might be a nice way to spend some extra time in the woods though. Maybe that's part of the secret. The artistic aspect might have been a way for them to demonstrate to others that they were a good enough hunter or woodsman or whatever that they could take the extra time for such things.

http://www.primitiveways.com/pack_frame.html
Not sure this guy would have impressed too many people 10,000 years ago, but by my standards its not bad. :)