Lighter alternatives to FF Rock Wren & VBL questions.

[rustyb]

My Feathered Friends Rock Wren is one of my most treasured pieces of gear. I love how it doubles as a garment, how it ventilates, etc. However, I'm looking to slash weight and the sleeping bag seems to be the most logical choice,...for me.

I'd use this bag in the Sierras below 6000' and similar locations between June & August. I nearly always sleep in a Gore-tex bivy bag. I'm 6', 165-170 lbs & consider myself an average sleeper (1 lb 12 oz Rock Wren w/800 fill has worked well if not some times overkill).

The lighter Rock Wren version, the Chickadee, seems like a no brainer but I can't really justify that kind of money for a 3 oz savings. I emailed FF asking if the listed 25 oz was with their lightest material and have yet to receive a response.

Looks like the 14 oz WM Linelite could be used similarly to the Rock Wren but without a hood and closures for the arm slits, I question whether it'll keep me warm enough. Could a VBL be used in a bag like this, in the summer months, to lower its temp rating? If so, i'm thinking the added weight of that (4 oz, does that sound right or are there lighter?) plus a hat (1 oz) would still have me more than a half pound lighter than my current Rock Wren. But, will that logic work in the wild blue yonder....Linelite w/ bivy & VBL in the summer?

Any other ideas?

If the Linelite could be improved with modifications to fit my needs (adding velcro to the arm slits, etc), I don't have a problem doing that. I just haven't been able to look at one close enough to know.

Perhaps I should just forget about being able to "wear" my bag and settle for the WM Highlite for a 3/4 pound savings.

What to do,.... what to do......

[MedicineMan]

welcome to Whiteblaze!
you saw my answer to this querry at TLB, forgot to mention that now the Linelite is in a bugout bag in one of the vehicles. At 120oz and judicial use of garbage bags/whatever extemporaneous things you can find along the way, it is hard to beat for insurance against cold times.

[hungryhowie]

Personally, I would never feel comfortable incorporating a VBL as a piece of gear used so frequently that it would be inherently part of the system. If you need a VBL to keep you warm to the temperatures you're expecting before you leave, you're not carrying enough for an emergency, should one take you unawares.

The difference is only a few ounces of down, something that you won't feel (nor do I think you even COULD feel) in your pack. If you must reduce your weight, before spending a large sum of money on a high-quality down bag/quilt, consider cutting the equivalent 3-6oz from your pack somehow. If you can't do this (i.e. you've already cut everywhere else, or you need everything else to survive), then I would suggest that you not cut your sleeping bag. Either you're already stretched thin enough, or you're already so light that it's a waste of your money. If you can do this, however, then you've just saved yourself ~$200, saved the same amount of weight, and will still be able to keep warm!

$0.02
-Howie

[chowhound]

I agree with Howie. If you are healthy and fit (as your height and weight would suggest), and have already made all the basic changes to reduce pack weight, it doesn't seem reasonable to make an expensive and possibly uncomfortable change just to save a few ounces. Especially when what you have works well. Of course if you are just lusting after a new piece of gear then that's different. In that case go for it. For a lot of us collecting gear is just as much a hobby as hiking.

Chowhound

One other note while I'm thinking about it. Most people who obsess about pack weight would be better served by working on the estra weight that they carry around their waist.

[Grimace]

Howie and Chowhound have perfect points.

When you said slash weight I assumed you had a 3lb sleeping bag. Since you already have a sub 2 lb bag, I don't think you need another.

why don't you post a gear list so we can see if we can suggest other ways for you to lose weight from your pack.

[rustyb]

Thanks for the input everyone. I should note that I want to lighten up for a bit different reason than conventional backpacking. I'm an occasional backpacker but avid whitewater kayaker. Some of the rivers/creeks I enjoy require the boat and camping gear be packed, drug or shouldered anywhere from 2 - 10 or more miles to reach the put-in. Not only must the load (my modified kayak alone weighs 42 lbs. Then there's paddling gear on top of the camping equipment) be light for the carry in, the less weight I have while going down the river (2-5 days), the more maneuverability my kayak has. Some of these runs contain very technically difficult rapids and having an unencumbered kayak is paramount to safety.

The only piece of gear I feel could loose weight without cutting into my personal comfort level, is my bag. I say that as many of the nights I have slept in California, I had my Rock Wren unzipped throughout the night. And most of those were in an early prototype Wanderlust 2-4-2 tent which as some of you may know does not hold a lot of heat i.e., it's very open. That combined with the fact I'm now using a bivy bag (warmer than 2-4-2) has me thinking I'm carrying unnecessary weight in my sleeping bag.

To give an idea of my base weight (minus 1st Aid, spare paddle, rescue equip, camp clothing for the expected weather, etc), here's a list of my gear:

-Bivy/tent home made 18oz

-FF Rock Wren sleeping bag & sil nylon sack 30oz

-High Country Mt Wash sleeping pad modified 6oz

-Snow Peak titanium stove w/GP250 canister 15oz

-Snow Peak Spork & titanium pot 3oz

-Aqua Mira filter bottle 5oz

I thought my bag weighed 1 lb 12 oz but upon looking at my notes, it's actually 1 lb 14 with the stuff sack. So, if I were able to get by with a Linelite, the weight savings would be closer to a pound. This may not seem like a lot to some with the latest & most comfortable backpack strapped to their back (as opposed to carrying an 8.5' long gear laden kayak) but it could make a big difference for me both physically and psychologically.

Oh, and Chowhound. I'm always lusting after new gear so there is certainally that to consider;-)

Thanks all and I welcome all other comments.

rusty

PS

I called Feathered Friends to ask about the Chickadee and with their lightest material, they could get that bag down to around 21 oz. I wouldn't get a FF without the optional 800 fill so that plus the pricier material would set me back $240 for a 9 oz savings. If I had money burning a hole in my pocket, that wouldn't be an issue but…………

[hungryhowie]

I see that you listed your bivy as homemade. Have you considered making your own down quilt? I've made quilts that weigh anywhere from 17oz to 22oz and kept me warm from 40-20*F.

Take a look at the instructions that I put online at http://www.newsushi.net/quilt.html for more information and feel free to email me with any questions you have.

All supplies (including 800+fill down) are avaiable from www.thru-hiker.com individually, or in a kit tailored to my design.

This would be one way to acheive the warmth, weight and cost savings that you desire anyway.

My original comments still stand regarding the Linelite. If you would be carrying a VBL with it and expect to use it frequently to stay warm...you're not carrying enough sleeping bag in case of emergency situations.

-Howie

[rustyb]

Howie,


Thanks a bunch for the links. Great instructions you have there too. Anyhow, I'd love to make my own however, being that I'm now a full time Mr mom, time isn't as free as it once was for me.

As for needing more bag for emergencies, I have never felt the desperate need for anything warmer than what I was carrying while kayak camping. Checking the weather forecast prior and adjusting my gear accordingly has always worked for me. On top of that, from what I have seen, the Sierra's seem to have predictable weather in the summer months.

Thanks again and keep the input coming.

r

[Grimace]

Lots a thru hikers carry alcohol stoves instead of cannister stoves. Pretty much 1/2 of a soda can. Typically need about 1-2 TBS of denatured alcohol to cook your food. I think you'd save close to .5 lb by switching to alcohol.


Your empty water bottle weighs almost .5 a pound? I guess for convenience sake, the filter bottle works for you. An empty soda bottle with chem treatment will save you a few ounces though.

The only other place to lose weight would be your clothing. NOt sure what you need on the river though. Looking at backpacker's clothing lists, I always notice duplication. 2 pairs of pants for example. Too many coats/jackets. You ever bring something with you that you don't wear other than emergency items?

[rustyb]

Grimace,


Funny you should mention the alcohol stoves. I knew of them but didn't give them much thought until last night. I am going to experiment with them ASAP.

My bottle filter weighs 5 oz and you're correct. For me the extra few oz over chemicals far outways the inconveniece of treating. I don't even have to get out of my boat to use the bottle filter.

As for the clothing, I have no duplicates. And nearly every peice gets used for more than one purpose. For instance, I stick my rolled up spray skirt inside my sleeping bag stuff sack and use it as my pillow. If I don't wear the clothes to bed that I wore in my boat earlier, I stuff them under my legs to make up for the 3/4 sleeping pad. I rarely even take a jacket as my Rock Wren serves that purpose hence the interest in the Linelite.

So, looks like the stove is a sure thing and in my mind, the bag too. It's just a matter of which bag. I'm still leaning towards the Linelite mostly for its versatility. If it had a hood, I'd already have one on order.

Thanks for the post & suggestions.

r

[gravityman]

Lots a thru hikers carry alcohol stoves instead of cannister stoves. Pretty much 1/2 of a soda can. Typically need about 1-2 TBS of denatured alcohol to cook your food. I think you'd save close to .5 lb by switching to alcohol.


Alcohol stove verses a canister stove is a close call, if the canister stove is something like a pocket rocket or gigapower (3 oz).

here's a link that compares the two : http://www.thru-hiker.com/articles.asp?subcat=2&cid=57

as you will see, the weight difference at the start is only a little against the canister stove, and over time (especially if you aren't resuppling fuel very often, which is mostly the case, and if you are boiling more than 2 cups of water a day) the canister wins out. Plus the speed of the canister and the simmering makes it a clear winner in my book. But I didn't decide that until I played with the alcohol stove (I got a brasslite duo). St Rocks also does a similar analysis. The only problem is finding the canisters, which could be difficult on the PCT, but not the AT.

Gravity man

[rustyb]

Gravity man,

Thanks for the excellent link.

r