View Full Version : ULer goes heavy, still has good hike
Camping Dave
03-16-2009, 17:52
I’ve pretty much been what you would call a UL backpacker the last several years: trail runners, G4 pack, 1lb WM bag, hammock or tarp, alky stove w/Heiny pot, etc. Mostly warm to moderate weather with a few cool nights mixed in.
This weekend I added about 10 pounds to my kit. Broke out the old Gregory Reality (even took the top bag), Montrail boots, heavier bag, and canister stove and took them to Massanutten Mtn. on the Tuscarora Trail this weekend, just a little north and west of the AT in the SNP. The terrain was rocky. Not as bad as central PA, but not exactly a pine needle laden sylvan path either.
Report: my feet, back, and shoulders feel better than after similar UL hikes last fall. I attribute this to a combination of the Reality’s outstanding suspension helping my posture, and the Montrail’s stiff soles taking the point off the rocks. I don’t think the boots did anything for my ankles, as I never had ankle problems in trail runners. The steepest part of the trail climbed about 1500’ in 2 miles. My thighs felt the extra weight a little, but not enough to make me stop and rest. At night I raised my knees by putting my pack under my pad. That might not seem like much but it made sleeping on a blue CCF okay, as opposed to barely tolerable.
When we got to our destination Saturday night I boiled a quart of cold spring water and drank it to rehydrate and warm up. Then I did the same for the 19yr old who joined our group but forgot to bring fuel. Then another quart for myself. Then dinner. Then more hot water again the next morning. Never worried about staying within my fuel ration.
All in all, another cold drizzly weekend of fun!
Anyway, that's my experience. Thanks for reading.
mateozzz
03-16-2009, 22:32
So if ultra-light=UL, what is the opposite? UH=Ultra heavy? UC=Ultra comfortable? Moderately light?
I knew that kewl-aid wouldn't last forever...
Welcome back!
[QUOTE=Camping Dave;802564
Report: my feet, back, and shoulders feel better than after similar UL hikes last fall. I attribute this to a combination of the Reality’s outstanding suspension [/QUOTE]I can certainly understand how a good suspension on your pack will make your shoulders and back feel better, how do your feet tell the difference between ten pounds that ride on your shoulders and ten pounds that ride on your hips?
Kerosene
03-17-2009, 10:07
Pack suspension and foot protection are two of the reasons I haven't dropped my skin-out weight any further (25-26 pounds for shoulder season section hikes with 3-4 days of supplies). I use a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone, which is basically a Vapor Trail with an upgraded suspension and can carry up to 35 pounds quite comfortably. At 25 pounds it feel absolutely great. I tend to stub my toes, so any boot/shoe I use really needs a firm toe rand, which usually drives me to the 2-3 pound boots. The result is that I can walk 15-25 miles a day for a week and feel a lot better than I did when carried more, or when I've tried to go superlight.
hootyhoo
03-17-2009, 18:24
I'm shocked that you attempted this. And amazed that you still had a good time.
Acutally I gave up the weight chase a little while back. I have been very happy with my decision. Too many times over the past years I have had to do things like camp at lower elevation because temps were a little too low for my UL gear, or winds were blasting over a ridge and I had a ul shelter that would have been blown apart. In the old days I used to love to set my tent on a barren ridge in ferocious winds and enjoy mother nature battering my nylon around, or go to Mt Sterling when the temp was 12 degrees at the parking lot when we got to the trailhead.
I just never felt as confident with ul gear. Its fun in summer to do long mileage trips with light gear, but most times now I find myself taking what I want to - just like the old days.
I prefer the term minimalist.
It is a term that is NOT gear focused. Take enough for your own personal safety and comfort levels depending upon the trip.
(Next week, I taking a little whiskey. Very important for backpacking in Utah. ;))
Mags, where in Utah y'all goin? Please say The Maze, Canyonlands.
Blissful
03-20-2009, 19:28
My hubby does far better with his back using a good suspension framed pack.
Tipi Walter
03-24-2009, 10:20
I'm shocked that you attempted this. And amazed that you still had a good time.
Acutally I gave up the weight chase a little while back. I have been very happy with my decision. Too many times over the past years I have had to do things like camp at lower elevation because temps were a little too low for my UL gear, or winds were blasting over a ridge and I had a ul shelter that would have been blown apart. In the old days I used to love to set my tent on a barren ridge in ferocious winds and enjoy mother nature battering my nylon around, or go to Mt Sterling when the temp was 12 degrees at the parking lot when we got to the trailhead.
I just never felt as confident with ul gear. Its fun in summer to do long mileage trips with light gear, but most times now I find myself taking what I want to - just like the old days.
It's always good to hear about backpackers carrying more weight, especially an ULer. I'm just surprised you haven't been reprimanded or corrected, or as Hootyhoo says--"I'm shocked that you attempted this and amazed that you still had a good time." Ha ha tongue in cheek but certainly with a ring of truth.
If I posted something like, "I went out on a trip and carried about 70 pounds of gear including a four season tent and a 3.10 pound pad and I felt great the whole time and more weight works for me", I'd be bombarded with comments that I'm anti-UL or that I'm judging people by their gear or this pearl: It's not about the gear!! Or my favorite: "You either walk all day or camp, you either are a hiker or a camper." As if heavy packers don't hike and ULers don't camp.
I know, Camping Dave, that you're not talking about a 70 lb load, but I like where your head's at and where this conversation could be leading.
SGT Rock
03-24-2009, 18:44
If I posted something like, "I went out on a trip and carried about 70 pounds of gear including a four season tent and a 3.10 pound pad and I felt great the whole time and more weight works for me", I'd be bombarded with comments that I'm anti-UL or that I'm judging people by their gear or this pearl: It's not about the gear!! Or my favorite: "You either walk all day or camp, you either are a hiker or a camper." As if heavy packers don't hike and ULers don't camp.
No, you get taunted for being an anti ultralighter when you post things about all the ultralighters not being able to really enjoy the wilderness because they don't do it like you do. I guess you forgot about all those posts.:rolleyes:
i have a gregory that ways 5lbs, my back never bothers me, but day hiking w/ 2-3 lbs, my back kills me
I’ve pretty much been what you would call a UL backpacker the last several years: trail runners, G4 pack, 1lb WM bag, hammock or tarp, alky stove w/Heiny pot, etc. Mostly warm to moderate weather with a few cool nights mixed in.
This weekend I added about 10 pounds to my kit. Broke out the old Gregory Reality (even took the top bag), Montrail boots, heavier bag, and canister stove and took them to Massanutten Mtn. on the Tuscarora Trail this weekend, just a little north and west of the AT in the SNP. The terrain was rocky. Not as bad as central PA, but not exactly a pine needle laden sylvan path either.
Report: my feet, back, and shoulders feel better than after similar UL hikes last fall. I attribute this to a combination of the Reality’s outstanding suspension helping my posture, and the Montrail’s stiff soles taking the point off the rocks. I don’t think the boots did anything for my ankles, as I never had ankle problems in trail runners. The steepest part of the trail climbed about 1500’ in 2 miles. My thighs felt the extra weight a little, but not enough to make me stop and rest. At night I raised my knees by putting my pack under my pad. That might not seem like much but it made sleeping on a blue CCF okay, as opposed to barely tolerable.
When we got to our destination Saturday night I boiled a quart of cold spring water and drank it to rehydrate and warm up. Then I did the same for the 19yr old who joined our group but forgot to bring fuel. Then another quart for myself. Then dinner. Then more hot water again the next morning. Never worried about staying within my fuel ration.
All in all, another cold drizzly weekend of fun!
Anyway, that's my experience. Thanks for reading.
Well not even a good UL list and even worse old school...what are you saying?
Tipi Walter
03-24-2009, 22:12
Well not even a good UL list and even worse old school...what are you saying?
Are you saying you want his complete gear list?
Are you saying you want his complete gear list?
Tipi, that would be to much fun.:D
Camping Dave
03-25-2009, 18:06
Tipi, that would be to much fun.:D
What's too much fun is the vision of you hovering over your keyboard, tapping data into your Excel spreadsheet, converting ounces to grams, and posting every last bit of gear detail to some internet group. Maybe you want to know whether I took a plastic spoon from Wendy's or Checkers. When you print your list do you use 6 point font to save ink weight? :D
Went out again last weekend. Slept in a WM Badger on top of a Ridge Rest on top of a LARGE Prolite 4. (Quick slow, add that up in your head and tell me how many grams it is. You have all those stats memorized right?) It only got down to about 25 but I was warm and comfy in my bag with no hat, gloves, socks, or fleece jammies.
When the weather warms up enough that you feel safe coming out with your 12 ounce bag, give me a ring and we'll do some hiking. Be sure to bring your gear list!
CrumbSnatcher
03-25-2009, 18:32
my 42 year old fat ass, my external frame pack, and my 4 pound tent will be thruhiking the A.T. this year under 3 months! put that in your pipe and smoke it!!! you don't have to be ultralight or young to kick ass!!!:D
my 42 year old fat ass, my external frame pack, and my 4 pound tent will be thruhiking the A.T. this year under 3 months! put that in your pipe and smoke it!!! you don't have to be ultralight or young to kick ass!!!:D
Pipe!?! Who can afford the extra 2oz for a pipe!!!
With the economy down, unemployment on the rise, ULers should hire themselves a porter to lug their gear for them... Imagine the miles they could cover then! Hell, for a little extra, perhaps the porter would even carry them!
CrumbSnatcher
03-25-2009, 19:30
Pipe!?! Who can afford the extra 2oz for a pipe!!!
With the economy down, unemployment on the rise, ULers should hire themselves a porter to lug their gear for them... Imagine the miles they could cover then! Hell, for a little extra, perhaps the porter would even carry them!
thanks for the laugh! i hardly ever drink but today after work i had a couple pitchers of beer and was feeling froggy! heavy **** light **** whatever!!!!!!!get out there and have fun!!!!!:D
skinewmexico
03-25-2009, 21:47
Boy, can you smell that testorone in the air????
FamilyGuy
03-25-2009, 23:18
Why do we keep re-hashing old threads? We all know that UL is for sissy's so why do we keep discussing it?
I think we should start a thread and see how much useless heavy gear we can take on our next trip. And then we can all go out and get into a couple of bar fights. What say you?
take-a-knee
03-25-2009, 23:33
Boy, can you smell that testorone in the air????
Smells more like a beer fart and whatever is stuck to my trail runners.
Blue Jay
03-26-2009, 08:01
my 42 year old fat ass, my external frame pack, and my 4 pound tent will be thruhiking the A.T. this year under 3 months! put that in your pipe and smoke it!!! you don't have to be ultralight or young to kick ass!!!:D
Sorry to burst your bubble but 42 is young.
Cookerhiker
03-26-2009, 08:33
Sorry to burst your bubble but 42 is young.
Absolutely agree!:D
Cookerhiker
03-26-2009, 08:37
Camping Dave, two questions for you: (1) in hiking the Tuscarora, did you start in the Shen. Valley and ascend the 1,000+ stretch to Massanuten, enabling you to carry your heavier pack uphill? (2) what about longer expeditions - are you planning to hike a week or more with your heavier pack?
Jayboflavin04
03-26-2009, 08:46
I like that term "minimalist". Hiking is my vacation. I wanna enjoy myself and be comfortable. Do I think I can shave some weight off my back absolutely. But I have been fussing over the wght the last couple days, I have decided it isnt worth it. I wanna make sure I get those not-needed overkill items out of my pack. Life is all about compromise....what can you live with or without.
Tipi Walter
03-26-2009, 08:48
Boy, can you smell that testorone in the air????
I love the smell of testosterone in the morning. Uh . . . wait a minute . . . that doesn't sound right.
Why do we keep re-hashing old threads? We all know that UL is for sissy's so why do we keep discussing it?
I think we should start a thread and see how much useless heavy gear we can take on our next trip. And then we can all go out and get into a couple of bar fights. What say you?
Backpacking legend and expert hiker Dr. Colon Flaccid is way ahead of you. He developed a bonafide marsupial pack that hung from hip straps and hung between the wearer's legs in a pouch like hang. He called it the P8 Array, or the Possum 8000M Ballsac Array(P8), and it revolutionized backpacking and took the standard hipbelt and shoulder strap pack and low slung it near crotch level between the thighs. Though it was most popular with bowlegged individuals and those with a history of childhood rickets, thousands of normal backpackers and outdoorsmen used the pack and it was common to see several men greet each other with their huge bulbous packs swinging between their legs.
American backpacker Turley Turdson had this to say of the pack during a 3 month climb of Annapurna: "Despite wearing my down suit, harness and rope, the P8 array hung well even with a load of over 80 pounds which I carried consistently above 26,000 feet. In fact, it saved my life in an open glacier when I broke thru a crevasse and was saved by the large bulbous mass between my legs as it was too large to pass thru the hole my boot made."
Curman Redpeter, an old hitchhiking bum and burnt-out old hippie, swore by the Fullsac P8 and had this to say: "When the Highway Patrol saw me hitching on the Interstate, they gave me a wide berth and never stopped. One state trooper said he thought I had elephantitis."
So, I guess most people would say the P8 Array is not for sissies.
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 08:48
Sorry to burst your bubble but 42 is young.
Absolutely agree!:D
Ditto.
Jayboflavin04
03-26-2009, 09:07
I already have a large bulbous mass between my legs.....:D....there is some testosterone for ya....
Sometimes you just gotta man up.
Sometimes you just gotta man up.
Tell that to my 5' 100lbs girlfriend, she can out haul me and walk me into the ground on trail... She sets the pace on groomed trails, but when I get my choice to take one of my off trail deep wilderness treks, then it's my turn to set the pace...
Remember when you where a kid back in school and you got to go on a feild trip every once in a while, thats what trail hiking feels like to me... It's a good break and an easy day... (this is our form of a resort vacation).
And that UL gear just won't cut it off trail... As my GF found out the first time we went off trail hiking... Her UL pack was cut to shreads (won't mention brand) so I ended up carrying what was left of her gear for the remainder of the trip... That opened her eyes, and since, she has been coming back to more durable gear...
UL gear i'm sure works well for groomed trail hiking, especially with all the support and services on the AT... I guess its a matter of having the right gear for the job... Since I don't wish, nor can I afford to have mutliple hiking kits for different conditions other than temp and season, I go with what works in all conditions, and that is generally well constructed, and heavier gear...
garlic08
03-26-2009, 11:20
And that UL gear just won't cut it off trail... As my GF found out the first time we went off trail hiking... Her UL pack was cut to shreads (won't mention brand) so I ended up carrying what was left of her gear for the remainder of the trip... That opened her eyes, and since, she has been coming back to more durable gear...
UL gear i'm sure works well for groomed trail hiking, especially with all the support and services on the AT... I guess its a matter of having the right gear for the job...
As a confirmed ULer, I need to agree here, and I had a similar experience. The right tool for the job is important. I tried taking a 7-oz spinnaker cloth pack on the CDT (lots of 'schwaking), saving two lousy ounces over the silnylon version my partner carried. After 1000 miles, I had about 1/4 pound of duct tape holding the pack together and my partner's pack still looked nearly new. We were pretty close to having to lighten my load into his pack and take turns carrying it because mine was failing. Lesson learned.
But another lesson learned was that the 9-oz silnylon pack my partner used finished the CDT trip, finished the AT the next year, and is still on the trail. I have one of those now with over 2500 miles on it and I love it. It's the right tool for the job (three-season thru-hiking), for me. So I see nothing wrong with some of the UL gear in the right conditions. But going lighter than 9 oz was just silly, for me.
Tipi, that was a great story! Loved it.
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 11:25
I love the smell of testosterone in the morning. Uh . . . wait a minute . . . that doesn't sound right.
Backpacking legend and expert hiker Dr. Colon Flaccid is way ahead of you. He developed a bonafide marsupial pack that hung from hip straps and hung between the wearer's legs in a pouch like hang. He called it the P8 Array, or the Possum 8000M Ballsac Array(P8), and it revolutionized backpacking and took the standard hipbelt and shoulder strap pack and low slung it near crotch level between the thighs. Though it was most popular with bowlegged individuals and those with a history of childhood rickets, thousands of normal backpackers and outdoorsmen used the pack and it was common to see several men greet each other with their huge bulbous packs swinging between their legs.
American backpacker Turley Turdson had this to say of the pack during a 3 month climb of Annapurna: "Despite wearing my down suit, harness and rope, the P8 array hung well even with a load of over 80 pounds which I carried consistently above 26,000 feet. In fact, it saved my life in an open glacier when I broke thru a crevasse and was saved by the large bulbous mass between my legs as it was too large to pass thru the hole my boot made."
Curman Redpeter, an old hitchhiking bum and burnt-out old hippie, swore by the Fullsac P8 and had this to say: "When the Highway Patrol saw me hitching on the Interstate, they gave me a wide berth and never stopped. One state trooper said he thought I had elephantitis."
So, I guess most people would say the P8 Array is not for sissies.
Now that there is funny. I don't care who you are.:D
skinewmexico
03-26-2009, 11:40
I think as part of being prepared, I would take a pack cover to protect my pack while bushwacking, rather than taking something unsuited for the job out, and blaming the pack when it got shredded.
But I have a P8 Array, so I don't have to worry.
She indeed had a pack cover (silnylon), it was the first casualty, pack (silnylon) was second... She had always laughed at my home made cordura pack cover I used for off trail adventures.. By the end of the trip looking at her shredded bag, she was frustrated with me for not making one for her and insisting she use it... LOL She's learning to enjoy off trail hiking as much if not more than trail hiking, but it has taken her a while to give up trail shoe's for boots, frameless nylon packs for one with support, suspension and more durable material, frog toggs for real rain gear and so on... Ultimately, it would be nice if we could afford and justify spending the extra for lighter gear for trail hiking and heavier more durable gear for off trail trips, but since we can't we spend our money on the heavier more durable gear because it is going to get the job done both on and off trail...
And at the end of the day, she admits that she really can't notice the difference between a 25lb pack and a 35lb pack. It hasn't reduced her milage and she says she feels less fatigued at days end... I can't offer an opinion here, as I've alway's carried 35lbs or more... And frankly, I don't see a need to carry less...
mister krabs
03-26-2009, 14:00
Broke out the old Gregory Reality (even took the top bag),
:eek::eek: OMG you took the top bag?!? You are so hardcore!! :p
I love my old reality, I always reach for it when I'm carrying extra gear. I never take the top though, it's the one with the clear plastic bottom.
FamilyGuy
03-26-2009, 15:09
And at the end of the day, she admits that she really can't notice the difference between a 25lb pack and a 35lb pack. It hasn't reduced her milage and she says she feels less fatigued at days end....
She might not, but her knees will in the long run.
She might not, but her knees will in the long run.
Fair enough, but perhaps that is more a consequence of medical science and the fact that we now live to see 80, than it is a difference between carrying a 25lb pack or a 35lb pack.....
I'm already a candidate for knee replacement due to playing hockey as a kid... And while my knee's always hurt, they don't hurt any more carrying a 35lb pack or not... If you think back over our human history, especially our hunting and gathering days, carrying 35lbs for relitively a small portion of our life span, should have limited impact on our body's.
We simply live to long these days!
skinewmexico
03-26-2009, 15:25
We simply live to long these days!
Or play too much hockey! Actually, I don't know that any of us envisioned how the games of our youth would be the pains of our middle age.
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 15:32
I've developed issues from carrying large loads back in the day. Start going lighter before you wear things out.
I guess it is like someone with no teeth telling someone they ought to floss before they get bad teeth.
Camping Dave
03-26-2009, 16:09
Camping Dave, two questions for you: (1) in hiking the Tuscarora, did you start in the Shen. Valley and ascend the 1,000+ stretch to Massanuten, enabling you to carry your heavier pack uphill? (2) what about longer expeditions - are you planning to hike a week or more with your heavier pack?
Last trip we started at Elizabeth Furnace and headed south to the Little Crease shelter, in Veach Gap I think. Roughly 1500' up and down, then back the next day. Was not a big deal at all. My legs were not sore at all. January we were in the Buchanan state forest in PA just north of Hancock. Never climbed more than about 1000' per day. My next opportunity for a week long hike will be late summer.
I love my old reality, I always reach for it when I'm carrying extra gear. I never take the top though, it's the one with the clear plastic bottom.
Yeah that's the one, with the clear plastic bottom. I almost left it home out of shame. Do you remember that scene in Bryson's book A Walk in the Woods where he and his buddy share a shelter with a gear junkie who brags about, of all things, a clear plastic panel in his pack that lets him see what's inside. Bryson's buddy starts in on him right away, "Oh yeah, cuz when you're in the woods you never have enough time to unzip a pocket and look inside." I loved that scene. Always assumed the gearhead was showing off his new Reality!
I've developed issues from carrying large loads back in the day. Start going lighter before you wear things out.
I guess it is like someone with no teeth telling someone they ought to floss before they get bad teeth.
While your advice is always taken into consideration Rock, I gotta say, I'm happy with my gear, and weight...
I've found gear that works both on and off trail, gear that will take a beating and hold up for years of use... All attempts i've made to lighten my load has lead to gear that just does not stand up to the use, or gear that simply does not work for me... I can carry my full load for days on end, feeling no different at the end of the day than I do after day hikes with a lite day pack... In my mind a 35lb pack is lite weight... No need to go lower, everything I have works well, fits comfortably, and will go the distance...
No trail runners for me, no frameless pack, no sleeping under a tarp or tarp tent, no down quilt to replace sleeping bag, no frog toggs, and so on... I like durable long lasting gear that works...
My GF nearly always suffered from a pinched nerve in her lower back after hiking trips with her UL gear... Once she switched (at the recommendation of her doc) to a pack with a frame and proper boots, she has yet to have back pain despite increasing the weight of her load... She's off the koolaid!
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 16:33
Just saying - some of the issues might not be the weight of the gear but the design. Ask anyone who has ever packed 100 pounds (or even 50) in an ALICE pack. Though it is tough and designed to carry monster loads - it was designed for people that must have been about 5'2" because we all end up with back pain in the thing.
The Coolaid comes in lots of flavors, not just light.
After a year of no back pain, you couldn't pry her Baltoro off her back...
Like I said earlier, you need the right gear for the job.. If we only did trail hikes, lighter gear would work fine, but since we do more off trail trips than on trail, heavier sturdyer gear is necassary... Silnylon is not meant for bush whacking, nor are trail runners...
The Coolaid comes in lots of flavors, not just light.
Nicely played!;);)
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 16:48
... Silnylon is not meant for bush whacking, nor are trail runners...
Yep.:sun
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 16:52
And those things are also not so good for doing trail maintenance either.
Jim Adams
03-26-2009, 17:24
Or play too much hockey! Actually, I don't know that any of us envisioned how the games of our youth would be the pains of our middle age.
My ankles and knees ache so much that at times it is difficult to stand in the morning. I'm sure all of the hiking didn't help but most of that pain is caused by worn out joints from 30 years of motorcycle racing.
geek
FamilyGuy
03-26-2009, 18:41
I like durable long lasting gear that works...
My GF nearly always suffered from a pinched nerve in her lower back after hiking trips with her UL gear... Once she switched (at the recommendation of her doc) to a pack with a frame and proper boots, she has yet to have back pain despite increasing the weight of her load... She's off the koolaid!
UL gear will last as well. I have a Golite Jam 2 with over 2500 miles on it. A little dirty but that is it.
Your girlfriend had issues because she was likely packing too heavy with a frameless pack. You mention that she has been increasing her load. Be realistic.
As i've said, you gotta have the right gear for the job... Yes I have no doubt ultralight gear will last just fine when used on trail all the time... However, as I also said earlier, her UL pack w/pack cover was torn to shreads on it's very first trip off trail. Silnylon is just not meant for bushwhacking... And since most of our trips are off trail, it's not a smart choice..
Second, when I first met Wendy, her pack weight was around 25lbs with food and water for a week trip... She has now switched to a pack with a frame and suspension, tougher rain gear and clothes, and boots from trail runners... Also switched from a foam pad to a thermarest.. So her total pack weight for a 5 day trip with food and water is now around 30-34lbs... So yes she has increased her load, but the added support of the pack and boots has eliminated her pinched nerve back problem....
I don't know, so you tell me, is 25lbs to much weight for a frameless pack?
garlic08
03-26-2009, 19:45
I don't know, so you tell me, is 25lbs too much weight for a frameless pack?
I think that's pushing it. I always keep mine below 20 lbs with food and water. That's easily good for 100 miles of tough hiking. When you go to 25 and above, some hikers need a pack with metal stays, at least.
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 19:48
Depends on the pack. If it was a Gossamer Gear I would say yes. The one I used didn't do well at 20 pounds, so I bet at 25 it would absolutely suck.
Something else about light packs that I found - some don't pack like heavier packs. I was not happy with the Gearskin at first until I learned how to pack it. I don't know what pack she used - but there is a chance that her pack was not well suited for the load she was carrying or how it was packed.
Just saying.
Improper pack or packing could very well be the issue, but if that is the case, than that is one more reason to use a framed pack... If a framed pack fits you properly, you can load the thing any number of ways and it works as a pack should... No need to find the magic packing order... BTW..I don't know what the brand of the pack was, I'll check with her when I see her later...
Regardless, the main reason for the switch to heavier stronger gear, was the fact that most of our trips are of trail wilderness bushwhacking trips, not groomed AT style trails... UL gear just does not work under these conditions... It's not designed too... So rather than spending money to have two sets of gear, she has made the decision to buy gear that works equally well both on and off trail.... Boots, Baltoro and all, she can do big mile days on groomed trails, or walk off trail and trailblaze...
Simply put.... One set of gear for all conditions vs more money and two sets of gear for two very different things... If you only do blazed groomed trails, then yes, by all means, lean toward lighter gear... However, if you prefer, or ever, plan to simply wilderness hike, follow no trail, then UL gear will not be the gear to do the job... With our money we choose to have one main setup that works well on or off trail...
FamilyGuy
03-26-2009, 20:12
Depends on the pack. If it was a Gossamer Gear I would say yes. The one I used didn't do well at 20 pounds, so I bet at 25 it would absolutely suck.
Something else about light packs that I found - some don't pack like heavier packs. I was not happy with the Gearskin at first until I learned how to pack it. I don't know what pack she used - but there is a chance that her pack was not well suited for the load she was carrying or how it was packed.
Just saying.
Agree. Both the ULA Conduit and the Jam seem to be comfortable enough at 25 pounds for me. I have had the Pinnacle at 32 pounds without issue all day, but that pack has a very thick hard foam framesheet.
Some are going to not feel very good at 20 pounds for sure.
Having said that, I thought, at least for me, that the Osprey Atmos framed pack felt like crap at 25 pounds so go figure. A lot of pack fitting has to do with what kind of shape you have.
But all of this is really moot. As long as you and Wendy are getting out, that is all that matters. Gear choice is a very personal thing and what works for me, or you, or Joe the Plumber may not work for the next guy.
That is the one thing about choosing and using gear - it is a long interative process for most people. It takes a while to find out what works and what doesn't and it is a personal thing. I would suspect that most hikers have a combination of both UL, lightweight, and heavy gear.
Sometimes it is fun to see how little I can pack and how far I can go. Other times it isn't.
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 20:33
Improper pack or packing could very well be the issue, but if that is the case, than that is one more reason to use a framed pack... If a framed pack fits you properly, you can load the thing any number of ways and it works as a pack should... No need to find the magic packing order... BTW..I don't know what the brand of the pack was, I'll check with her when I see her later...
Regardless, the main reason for the switch to heavier stronger gear, was the fact that most of our trips are of trail wilderness bushwhacking trips, not groomed AT style trails... UL gear just does not work under these conditions... It's not designed too... So rather than spending money to have two sets of gear, she has made the decision to buy gear that works equally well both on and off trail.... Boots, Baltoro and all, she can do big mile days on groomed trails, or walk off trail and trailblaze...
Simply put.... One set of gear for all conditions vs more money and two sets of gear for two very different things... If you only do blazed groomed trails, then yes, by all means, lean toward lighter gear... However, if you prefer, or ever, plan to simply wilderness hike, follow no trail, then UL gear will not be the gear to do the job... With our money we choose to have one main setup that works well on or off trail...
It is a point. As we talk - I have been trying to load my small, 30 pounds of food and gear into an internal frame pack of mine. I just cannot get it to load as well as I can into my Gearskin. There are a few things I would like to improve on my Gearskin to make it carry weight a little more better, but it seems to do better than this pack I was thinking about going to. And the Gearskin weighs less. Win/Win but with compromises.
Again, I get the idea of saving weight on long distance trail hiking... Trust me I hear all these arguements on every trip from my hiking buddy Pete... He is a light weighter if not ULer, and a big follower of your website Rock... In fact, he often uses you as a reference when making points... Many of which I agree with, if the intended purpose is trail hiking...
I do got to thank you on all your useful info on Hammock Camping, when I go solo or without Wendy, it's my prefered shelter... All my years of wilderness camping and I never considered sleeping in a hammock... Couldn't see the hammock for the tree's so to speak... It's taken several attempts to figure out a sleep system that works in 3 seasons... Still can't beat a tent for winter...
Problem with my buddy Pete going UL, now he refuses to do off trail trips, cause his new gear can't handle it...
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 22:00
my gear makes it.
What do you use for off trail use? I'd love some advice, because even cordura takes a severe beating after a lug through a hawthorne thicket, or the thisles along the Atlantic Coast...
You should come up and enjoy some Canadian wilderness... You could join us on our fall trip along the Fundy Footpath... We could have some great discussions aside the highest tides in the world...
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 22:21
For those things I go with a Kuhkri. It cuts down on the things cutting on your gear.
But for a pack in those situations - a medium Alice Pack without a frame.
But that said, most of my off trail here is still done with my Gearskin.
skinewmexico
03-26-2009, 22:30
I sure don't use my Mariposa for trail work. I don't think it would survive the catclaw. The Jam2 does OK though.
SGT Rock
03-26-2009, 22:33
Doing off trail and trail maintenance, this is part of what I carry and how I protect my gear:
http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/xtra/images/SZ2103.jpg
I highly recommend them.
Maybe get some ballons and just float my stuff along beside me
Camping Dave
03-27-2009, 08:08
Really Rock, I appreciate your knowledge and enthusiasm for ultralightness but sometimes it gets kind of silly. The idea of bushwhacking through dense thorns while hacking a wide enough trail with a kukri to keep your Frogg Toggs from getting snagged … Really?
Sometimes ultralight equipment can not stand up to adverse conditions. Here are some entries from well know UL’s trail journal. Torn clothing, broken gear, missed meals, painful boots. With proper gear, these failures and subsequent sniveling could have been avoided:
“On one of them I fell ripping a large hole in my rain pants from about waist to knee. That was my second equipment failure … The first was my stupid "Light My Fire" Spork which broke on day one when I stopped at Springer Mountain Shelter. I didn't even use it, just took it out of my food bag.
… As I laid there I was glad the sky was clear and there was no wind or it could have really sucked. I decided that cooking breakfast was probably out of the question since my other water was probably frozen (I always sleep with a liter). I was right … I packed up quickly. The part that took the longest was getting my feet into frozen shoes. I eventually had to take the insoles out and force them onto my feet in a most painful manner.”
And a good pack that effectively transfers weight is just flat out more comfy than a juiced-up frameless stuff sack. Which was the point of this thread anyway.
Maybe get some ballons and just float my stuff along beside me
Your on the right track... One technique we often use on difficult sections of the atlantic coast is a tradition that has been happening here since man first settled... We take turns in sea kayaks to ferry gear from one preselected camp site to the next. This avoids damage to packs and gear through said thickets and thorns, and provides the hikers a zero day taking turns in the boat... There are sections along the Atlantic coast where you can climb from sea level to 1000' and then back down to sea level repeatedly with no plateau's for a recovery... Makes for some tough slogging..
We've attempted to use the same technique with canoe's when following rivers or lakes, but with less success... Rivers don't always travel the direction you want to go... LOL
It's all in the journey, and frankly, I wouldn't trust any of that fancy UL gear when i'm a long way back in dense bush, and my only comfort comes from the gear i'm wearing on my back... Experience is the best teacher, and I'm an avid student...
SGT Rock
03-27-2009, 08:44
Naw, it is my style of bushwacking. Anyone that has been with me will tell you first thing is I don't aim straight through a hell and expect to come out the other side. Shoot boxes around. I pack and move as light as possible - and do it like I would in the Army when I do this. So I also usually am not going to go in rain gear when bushwacking. We generally just get wet. In the fall/winter/early spring, many of the plants that would cause problems are down, so no issue there. In the summer when they are up getting wet while walking ain't an issue. And the do grow back. I'm out there every year trimming stuff back from the trail.
The Khukuri on trail maintenance is that tool you can use for most every job from clearing brush to chopping down trees, to fending off dogs (joke).
And for going cross country - there are times when you gotta do what you gotta do. And it isn't for protecting Frogg Toggs. But if you are roughing it through stuff that will destroy coduera as claimed, maybe it is time to cut some back a little before pushing through. That just seems stupid.
hootyhoo
03-27-2009, 09:38
Doing off trail and trail maintenance, this is part of what I carry and how I protect my gear:
http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/xtra/images/SZ2103.jpg
I highly recommend them.
Leave no trees?
SGT Rock
03-27-2009, 09:39
If they are across the trail I am maintaining.
That just seems stupid.
Rock, I don't for a second believe to have more experience or knowledge about anything hiking related than you... So don't take a tone and we can have a nice conversation here...
Again, as Camping Dave pointed out, this thread is about how non UL gear for the most part is more supportive, comfortable and without question more durable... Especially when doing more than vacation AT walking...JK..
And for the record, I don't ever feel comfortable hacking a path through the woods because i've decided I want to take a hike... I will look for the path of least resistance, but often times thickets and thissle patches can extend for miles in either direction... Sometimes you just gotta get through...
SGT Rock
03-27-2009, 10:01
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone.
And think about it - if you gotta go through like that, you are leaving a trace. If you had to get out quick, in an emerency it would be a good idea to have a tool that would allow you to do that - and if you had to go in, making the route you already followed in a little easier to get out is a good idea.
FamilyGuy
03-27-2009, 10:43
Again, as Camping Dave pointed out, this thread is about how non UL gear for the most part is more supportive, comfortable and without question more durable....
Therein lies the problem. You are simply misinformed, which is not a shot against you but which is very common. For example, full Dyneema is not only lighter per yard than any cordura that you would have on your non-UL gear, but it is more durable. Comfort? Hardly. I don't find a 7 pound pack very comfortable.
There are misnomers about UL gear - some of the most important changes in fabric and gear design have come from the UL realm to which many mainstream gear makers are now adopting.
You have much to learn young padewan.:welcome
I'm always open to new ideas and willing to learn. And thanks for the heads up on the Dyneema, never heard of it and will keep my eyes open to see what it's all about... When it becomes common and no longer insanely expensive, and wrap it around a proper pack with proper support and suspension I'll hopefully give it a shot...
Anything that is load barring requires a frame... Can't put siding on house without first framing the house... Can't put a seat in a car until you first build a frame to support the car... Can't pave a bridge until you first build bridge support and so on... So stop trying to tell people that you can put straps on a stuff sack and call it a backpack that will properly support the weight... You also don't need a 7lb pack to properly carry weight... Your extreme's are no different than mine... As I believe it was Camping Dave said, we all carry a combo of UL, light and and heavier gear, and choose what to use depending on the job... For me, I draw the line at frameless packs, paper raingear and trail runners... They just don't make the grade for my uses..
Tipi Walter
03-27-2009, 11:29
What do you use for off trail use? I'd love some advice, because even cordura takes a severe beating after a lug through a hawthorne thicket, or the thisles along the Atlantic Coast...
You should come up and enjoy some Canadian wilderness... You could join us on our fall trip along the Fundy Footpath... We could have some great discussions aside the highest tides in the world...
For those things I go with a Kuhkri. It cuts down on the things cutting on your gear.
But for a pack in those situations - a medium Alice Pack without a frame.
But that said, most of my off trail here is still done with my Gearskin.
Backpacking and Bushwacking. Where to begin? Even the tough stuff gets used up quick. I used to bushwack a favorite backpacking place called Lost Valley and it's hard to describe the inhuman nature of the place. Picture 4000 acres of chest high rhododendron, some higher, in a valley divided by a clean flowing mountain stream. Walking thru the laurel was near impossible, so the creek beame the trail. It was a trail-less expanse, except for the deer and rabbits. On one trip I decided to be an idiot and wack thru the rhodo. I was high stepping and cursing, weeping and then silent, glaring and confused. Eventually collapsed. I had an old North Face external frame pack held onto the frame with clevis pins and split rings.
After several hours I took the pack off and found the bag hanging off the frame, the pins and rings removed by the brush. Amazing. Did I have any spares? A small daypack would've made the trip a whole lot easier, but then again, I was out for many days and couldn't get by with a low slung daypack. My pack had cordura and let's face it, cordura is tough stuff. I might've lost the pins and rings, but the pack itself never had a blowout. And after 21 years it's still going strong--no rips, nothing. The pack I use now is even beefier.
I've used the ALICE for many bushwacking trips(w/o the frame)and found it to be a near perfect tough pack with no blowouts. Loved the comfy shoulder pad/straps with the metal swivel spring-loaded strap release. Dang thing never loosened. One of the best shoulder straps I've ever seen on a pack.
The problem with many lightweight packs and/or inferior packs(does anyone remember the Sundog brand?)is poor seam reenforcements and seam longevity. On top loading packs with the cinched-down closing skirt, well, it was often used to pick up the pack and would quickly pull apart. While there are some very lightweight fabrics out there stronger than cordura(spectra too?), it's the seams connecting them that seem to blowout the most. (Of course, zippers are the weak link and have to be replaced on even the stoutest pack after alot of use).
The first thing to go in a good pack? And sometimes the hardest to replace? I'd have to say the 2 bottom shoulder straps that are used to tighten up the pack thru the plastic buckle, and the hibpelt cinch-webbing. After hard use these three items fray and wear out, and the plastic fastex-type buckles also wear down, eventually they slip. A frayed strap is easy to see, it's just worn out looking and won't bind and lock in as well as when new. And when they slip, the pack will sag further and further down and need frequent cinching. When replacing, I always remember to replace both the strap and the buckle, as the black plastic buckles will wear down over time and not grip as well as when new, etc.
Tipi you are a wealth of experience and info.. You never fail to impress!
SGT Rock
03-27-2009, 12:12
Tipi is a cool guy. You ought to meet him sometime.
wisenber
03-29-2009, 22:01
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/2/4/8/4/wisenber_crossing_south_fork_citico_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/2/4/8/4/wisenber_crossing_south_fork_citico_thumb.jpg)
Tipi Walter and Hootyhoo can vouch for my UL credentials as is made evident in the photo.
SGT Rock
03-29-2009, 22:04
LOL. Looks like canvas.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2009, 22:31
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/2/4/8/4/wisenber_crossing_south_fork_citico_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/2/4/8/4/wisenber_crossing_south_fork_citico_thumb.jpg)
Tipi Walter and Hootyhoo can vouch for my UL credentials as is made evident in the photo.
German ULers swear by this pack, a bonafide 8000 cubic inch daypack w/o a hipbelt. Or do they swear at this pack? I can't remember which it is. Waterproof? Yes. Able to carry 70 lbs? Yes. Able to carry 5 lbs? Yes. Submergeable? Yes. Available hook for hanging orange gear? Yes. Constricting hipbelt for dangerous water crossings? No. Subdued forest colors for stealth and blending purposes? Yes. Made from secret proprietary nyvas(nylon-canvas)material with German engineering? Yes. Does the pack change into a beefy bivy sack in camp, allowing for complete coverage when prone in the foetal position? Yes. Able to carry an unstuffed down sleeping bag w/o the danger of bag compression? Yes. Made from quality top-grade CanLon(canvas-nylon) spectral-ballistic cloth? Yes.
In fact, the only gear carried on this ultralight backpacking trip was a fully lofted sleeping bag filling out the 8000 cu in volume of the pack. It looks heavy, but in fact the pack with gear came in at just under 4 pounds, so yes, I can fully validate his UL credentials.
wisenber
03-29-2009, 23:10
Actually the pack was filled with the ultimate multi-use item. It contained a down filled inflatable combination funyak-shelter-futon with an attached solar ez-bake oven. When used at a base camp, it also has a hydro-ponic option that will render bean sprouts in temps as low as 15 F.
It is all part of the ultimate Teutonic from follows function. If it were not for the hydrogen generator it would be quite heavy.
Toolshed
04-01-2009, 22:13
I'm always open to new ideas and willing to learn. And thanks for the heads up on the Dyneema, never heard of it and will keep my eyes open to see what it's all about... When it becomes common and no longer insanely expensive, and wrap it around a proper pack with proper support and suspension I'll hopefully give it a shot...
Anything that is load barring requires a frame... Can't put siding on house without first framing the house... Can't put a seat in a car until you first build a frame to support the car... Can't pave a bridge until you first build bridge support and so on... So stop trying to tell people that you can put straps on a stuff sack and call it a backpack that will properly support the weight... You also don't need a 7lb pack to properly carry weight... Your extreme's are no different than mine... As I believe it was Camping Dave said, we all carry a combo of UL, light and and heavier gear, and choose what to use depending on the job... For me, I draw the line at frameless packs, paper raingear and trail runners... They just don't make the grade for my uses..
For what it is worth Kelty has been making packs with Dyneema Gridstop for almost a decade. Light, stalwart and high abuse resistancy. I think you can also buy it if URA DIYer....
beakerman
04-02-2009, 02:19
It's amazing to me how these things always go..it's like the water filter debates: some (like me) ardently for some form of water treatment and others equally ardent against. Looking at this thread half of you are trying to sell Daja and Camping Dave on UL when they don't seem to like it and then some f you are just defending your choice to do the ul thing.
What some of you are trying to do is like convincing someone that they will never eat vanilla ice cream after they try chocolate...some of us still like vanilla why is that so hard to digest?
Both of these guys made good points about their gear choice--they like it and what happened to HYOH?
There are many types/grades of Dyneema but both Dan McHale (http://www.mchalepacks.com/ultralight/ (http://www.mchalepacks.com/ultralight/)) and Brian Frankle at ULA (http://www.ula-equipment.com/index.htm (http://www.ula-equipment.com/index.htm)) use it and have for some time now.
Dyneema was invented in 1979, products have been around since 1990.
Franco
It's amazing to me how these things always go..it's like the water filter debates: some (like me) ardently for some form of water treatment and others equally ardent against. Looking at this thread half of you are trying to sell Daja and Camping Dave on UL when they don't seem to like it and then some f you are just defending your choice to do the ul thing.
What some of you are trying to do is like convincing someone that they will never eat vanilla ice cream after they try chocolate...some of us still like vanilla why is that so hard to digest?
Both of these guys made good points about their gear choice--they like it and what happened to HYOH?
It's quite simple... ULers believe they have experienced it all, that they have made the right choice, and now they feel it is their duty to push their new found religion onto the rest of us dummie's who just don't get it... I'm glad UL gear works for those that use it, i'm glad it extends the body's lifespan to get outdoors and be active.. I'd even be headed more lightweight myself if my only plans where to do trail walking ... But because I spend more time off trail than on, I choose my gear not by it's wieght but by it's durability and comfort for the conditions to which it will be used... I need gear that I can count on under all conditions, because if I run into trouble, there often is no town a days walk away, no one will be coming down the trail behind me... I'm on my own, and am responsible to get myself out... So I need to be able to depend on my equipment, and often carry redundant items of the essentials just in case (gps and compass, micropur and filter, weatherproof lighter and flint and steal, etc.)
UL is probably ideal for trail walking especially for places like the AT, and if I could get over my moral objections to consume consume consume, I'd consider outfitting myself with some more UL gear... However, I can't justify it financially or morally, so i'll stick with one kit that works equally well on or off trail, under any and all conditions..
Tipi Walter
04-02-2009, 09:15
Looking at this thread half of you are trying to sell Daja and Camping Dave on UL when they don't seem to like it and then some f you are just defending your choice to do the ul thing.
It's called the UL religion. See below.
It's quite simple... ULers believe they have experienced it all, that they have made the right choice, and now they feel it is their duty to push their new found religion onto the rest of us dummie's who just don't get it...
You said it, not me. I always try to counter in words the mad rush into all things ultralight--and not just "light", as backpacking has always been about lightweight gear. The fascination with grams and the apparent obsession with minimalist gear seems to be a gearhead's dream: to outfit themselves with the latest UL stuff(the NeoAir comes to mind)and to be more than willing to share total gram weights for each piece. It almost seems to be a sort of testosterone-fed, Alpha dog, who-can-go-the-lightest sport as any detailed reading of the ultralight forums will show.
My mantra for backpacking is, "When Push Comes To Shove". It simply means, when conditions turn mean and ugly, when a 25F day zooms down to a -10F night and high winds blow in a blizzard, the right tool for the job during the day will not be the right tool at night in this storm. Hence, when push comes to shove, we download what won't work and pick up what will. A mini-epic struggle with gear will usually force us to go with stouter gear, here's where the 'push comes to shove' thing plays out.
ULers often say, you've got to have the right tool for the job, and this justifies in their minds taking UL or minimalist gear. And for the most part this might work, but when it doesn't we get to see and read the mishaps. Just Jeff had a hammock blowout in a blizzard in the Sierras and took refuge in a tent, Eric Starling had too light gear for too cold conditions, many Tarptent users love the weight but advise against using them in the snow or cold wind.
I've been thru the UL phase many times, the bivy sac madness and the tarp "covered in snow" mornings, and the windblown one-pole tipi tent billowing like an umbrella in high winds, wanting to lift off the ground and would have w/o staying up all night holding it down. I've done the whole "UL pack" thing but found it uncomfortable and next to impossible when pulling a 17 trip to the Sierras by the Yuba River. When push comes to shove, we take what works in the worst conditions, and since I was dirt poor most of my life, I took one pack, one tent, one bag and one pad for everything I might face. Sure, I could bivy sac it/bedroll camp for one month, but the next month there would be zero degrees and blizzards.
The right tool for the job means specialization, but I like to carry a tool that does all the jobs at the same time. It's heavier, but it offers more employment.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2009, 09:16
Let the games begin.
Thanks Tipi, your understanding and knowledge organized and clarified my jumbled intentions... One set of gear that can work in a wide range of conditions or situations is my objective.
And for the beginners that come here for information on selecting gear and such, I think it is a diservice to suggest to them to go the UL route straight out of the gate. For you folks that have gone and believe in UL, you've had the experience and opportunity to use regular gear and have scaled down from there based on your experience, personal limits, and skill. For a beginner, they should begin with middle of the road gear, or things they already have until they find their own limits and develop their skills and gain experience, then with that information, they can decide what is the appropriate gear for them. Upgrade gear as it wears out and requires replacement.. It will avoid a great deal of discomfort and risky situations.
FamilyGuy
04-02-2009, 10:01
Thanks Tipi, your understanding and knowledge organized and clarified my jumbled intentions... One set of gear that can work in a wide range of conditions or situations is my objective.
And for the beginners that come here for information on selecting gear and such, I think it is a diservice to suggest to them to go the UL route straight out of the gate. For you folks that have gone and believe in UL, you've had the experience and opportunity to use regular gear and have scaled down from there based on your experience, personal limits, and skill. For a beginner, they should begin with middle of the road gear, or things they already have until they find their own limits and develop their skills and gain experience, then with that information, they can decide what is the appropriate gear for them. Upgrade gear as it wears out and requires replacement.. It will avoid a great deal of discomfort and risky situations.
DAJA, I need to get you out to the other side of Canada, into the Rocky Mountains where, as TIPI said, there can be extreme temperature changes in a matter of hours (minutes?). I will out fit you with the so-called UL Religious Paraphernalia that's not as durable or trustworthy. I bet you survive. In fact, I bet you thrive - warm, dry, and comfortable. Its also the home of Integral Designs; a company that focuses on providing UL gear for the masses. Guess what? They test this gear in their own backyard (Calgary is an hour away from the Rockies).
You keep claiming you have tried UL gear? Lets see a list. I am curious as to what you have tried and what hasn't worked.
Light is a relative term to for those who have different body types and abilities.
You keep claiming you have tried UL gear? Lets see a list. I am curious as to what you have tried and what hasn't worked.
Be forewarned, I usually don’t like offering brand names and am in no way suggesting they won’t work or are not worthy gear. Opinions expressed below are just that, opinions based on my experience with them. I had the good fortune as a leader for various wilderness trips for high risk youth, allowing me to try a decent range of gear.
Here’s a short list of gear I’ve tried on minimum 3 night trips:
Packs:
Golite Jam2 (poor support/not durable enough for off trail use)
Granite Gear Vapor Trail (not durable enough for off trail use/hassle to load/very comfy)
Gregory Z65 (All around decent pack/could never find the sweet spot)
Osprey Atmos 65 (hated everything about it, uncomfortable/not durable/weak suspension)
In the end I prefer my old (at least 7yrs) LL Bean 2500 CI pack… It’s durable and very comfy… If on longer trips I lean toward my Gregory Baltoro 70, all 6lbs of it! My hiking buddy Pete is an ULer and has a Gossamer Gear G4. He loves this pack and recommended I try it… I found it uncomfortable, hated using sleeping pad as extra support for frame sheet, pain to load and unload. I really liked the extra large mesh pocket around the outside of the pack, but as soon as I stepped off trail I had to turn around because it would have been shredded to bits in no time… Since going UL, Pete no longer enjoys bushwhacking…Hmmm…
Shelters:
REI Sierra Dome Tent 2 (Strong and Durable/vents well in most conditions/single door is a pain in the ass)
Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight 2 (Strong and Durable/vents well/single door entry is pain/not free standing)
Tarp Tent Double Rainbow (very light/works well in moderate conditions/way to much fussing to keep it rigid in heavy weather/condensation issues)
ENO double nest w/ homemade silnylon tarp (10x10) and homemade under and over quilt.
Eureka Solo Tent (this is old and heavy/can’t sit up in it/not free standing)
My go to shelter 90% of the time is my REI Sierra Dome when either solo or with partner… It has withstood all 4 seasons of abuse and is as light as my solo tent.. I wish it had duel doors. I also prefer free standing tents, less hassle especially when beach camping which we do often.
The Tarp Tent came with my GF, and I think we’ve used it once in the last 3yrs… It’s fine for moderate conditions, but I’d never trust it in heavy weather. Way too much fussing to get it taught. Lots of sagging and condensation…
I’m just getting into hammocking and can’t really give much info yet in this area.. I will tell you that there is little difference in weight between my hammock w/fly and under and over quilt and the Sierra Dome, so just because I know I can trust it in any situation, I’ll likely stick with the tent for most trips..
Rain Gear:
LL Bean Stowaway Jacket and Pants with Gore Tex
LL Bean Trail Model jacket and Pants
Frogg Toggs
Packa
Generally I carry the Stowaway set, as they are bomb proof, very durable when bushwhacking, they are a little bulky and heavy, but they have never failed me.. During summer months, and sticking to trails I’ll use the packa or trail model jacket. Both are less durable, and provide less protection, but work well in warm humid conditions, and much lighter than the Stowaway set. I did buy a set of Frogg Toggs at Mardins last summer and tried them once… Halfway through the hike in the rain, I ripped them off as the fit is ridiculously baggy and uncomfortable, the noise of them wisping with each step drove me insane, and they are made of paper… On that trip, I used them to start my fire… I also added some Velcro tabs on the back of the Packa so when worn without pack, I can tuck and clip all the extra material.
Footwear:
Vasque (There shoes and boots fit me perfectly, so for the past 10yrs this is all I’ve used.)
Zamberlan Lhasa (sp?) I’m currently trying these, so far so good, but still prefer my Vasque’s.
I generally carry 30 -37 lbs depending on food/water/length of trip so due to weak ankles (hockey) and load, I need ankle support, so tend to stay away from trail runners but on occasion do use some form of Keen’s for day hikes and general everyday wear.
My preference:
Winter: LL Bean 0 Down Bag with thermarest prolite 4 regular, and depending on temp, silk liner.
3 season: LL Bean 20 Down Bag with thermarest trail lite short.
Honorable mention:
Montbell Spiral Down Hugger 30 – super comfy and stretchy, but I found it cold above 30 degree’s. Also love Exped down mats but they are way too expensive.
Stove/Cooking:
Jetboil w/single mug and group cook system
Cat Can alcohol stove (homemade)
Trangia 28 with homemade windscreen
Pocket Rocket
Colman (variety of single burners including the exponent)
Definitely prefer and almost always carry the Jetboil. Simple, easy, and fast.
So there you go, pick away!
[quote=FamilyGuy;814289]DAJA, I need to get you out to the other side of Canada, into the Rocky Mountains where, as TIPI said, there can be extreme temperature changes in a matter of hours (minutes?). They test this gear in their own backyard (Calgary is an hour away from the Rockies).
You won't find me anywhere near Alberta, especially Calgary any time soon... The right wing pomp and pretentousness that eminates off that land of poluting black gold makes the "poor me" attitude of Quebec welcoming... It's a shame such a beautiful place has to be involved in such a race to distruction... I would however feel quite comfortable in BC..
We may not have the Mountains here in the east, but we sure do have incredible fluxuations in weather on the coast. An old joke here is if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes.. In an afternoon you can experience gail force winds, hail, snow, rain, pea soup fog, thunder storms and temp changes from 30c to 0c in hours. Especially on the Islands.. But the main thing you deal with as a result of constant moisture and fog, is mud, swamps/rivers, thick thickets and brush, and granite everywhere. So if you plan to bushwhack at all, you need materials that don't tear or snag easily which eliminates most UL packs, it just will not last.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2009, 12:26
Thanks Tipi, your understanding and knowledge organized and clarified my jumbled intentions... One set of gear that can work in a wide range of conditions or situations is my objective.
The right tool for the job for me could therefore be called a "multi-tool."
DAJA, I need to get you out to the other side of Canada, into the Rocky Mountains where, as TIPI said, there can be extreme temperature changes in a matter of hours (minutes?). I will out fit you with the so-called UL Religious Paraphernalia that's not as durable or trustworthy. I bet you survive. In fact, I bet you thrive - warm, dry, and comfortable. Its also the home of Integral Designs; a company that focuses on providing UL gear for the masses. Guess what? They test this gear in their own backyard (Calgary is an hour away from the Rockies).
I'm glad you brought up Integral Designs. I recently had the opportunity to test a fine ID MK3 single wall tent on a rainy winter trip and here again we delve into quibles and minor compromises. This won't be a full review of the MK3, but let me say this: I thought I could experiment with something beefy and four season and get away from my stout 8 pound Hilleberg, so I took out the ID for a test. The Hilleberg is the dryest tent I've ever had, both from the top down and the bottom up. The ID had 9 seams leaks after 3 days of cold rain, and this with fully taped inside seams. Right off I was confronted with trying to keep my down bag dry, something no shelter should allow.
Getting home and after a thorough seam sealing using several tubes of McNetts, I still found two major leaks at the door bottom wicking thru the two door lashing cords. You know how a sewn-in tie will absorb from the outside and down thru the inside? Common occurence. Shouldn't happen on an expensive, well-tested tent. And the inner canopy wicking material(tegratex??)is fine but by trying to save weight they make the tent shorter than most and of course the foot of the sleeping bag will always push up against this usually-wet stuff and dampen both the bag and the thermarest.
This is not a problem on a short weekend trip, but by trying to save weight on a long 12 day trip with day in and day out wet-and-getting-wetter gear, well, here's where the push comes to shove theory plays out. Go to what works in all conditions.
The problem with most UL shelter systems is bag compromise and wetting. I'm not talking about serious leaks or ground water pools swamping a tarptent, I'm talking about my experience with the MK3 or a single drop here and a single drop there that after a week or more of snow, rain and sleet, mounts up. Show me a shelter that keeps a bag dry in all conditions, and I'll use it and recommend it. I'm not talking about condensation, although no condensation should drip from a tarp or tent fly down onto a sleeping bag, there should be a liner or a second-wall tent canopy to dissipate 90% of this moisture. Condensation will wet a sleeping bag, pure and simple, and even in my dry double wall tent I have to deal with an inside winter coat of ice crystals. And sure, some mornings my bag is moist from exhalations and breathing, but not from actual water leaks.
I'm talking about errant leaks and water drips coming inside the tent or tarp . . . or even in a hammock if water runs down the tie-ropes. And this includes splash water from around a tent's perimeter, common with tarps. There should be none, period. If a shelter leaks, in any way, it's not worth carrying. You can tell if a tarp leaks by using one in a blizzard and finding yourself waking up covered in windblown snow. Scratch one tool off the list. And in deep cold conditions with snow and frozen everything, even the best four season bombproof tent will freeze with condensation on the inside and ice on the outside. I did a recent winter trip where it never got much above 0F for a week and after spending about 4 days stuck in my tent, even the bag needed to be aired and sun-dried as it was moist with frost and condensation. Or I should say, the shell was wet, not so much the down, cuz on the 5th day I hung it out in the sun and Zap! it was dry and lofted back up again.
Tipi Walter
04-02-2009, 13:19
Here’s a short list of gear I’ve tried on minimum 3 night trips:
Shelters:
REI Sierra Dome Tent 2 (Strong and Durable/vents well in most conditions/single door is a pain in the ass)
Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight 2 (Strong and Durable/vents well/single door entry is pain/not free standing)
Tarp Tent Double Rainbow (very light/works well in moderate conditions/way to much fussing to keep it rigid in heavy weather/condensation issues)
ENO double nest w/ homemade silnylon tarp (10x10) and homemade under and over quilt.
Eureka Solo Tent (this is old and heavy/can’t sit up in it/not free standing)
I did buy a set of Frogg Toggs at Mardins last summer and tried them once… Halfway through the hike in the rain, I ripped them off as the fit is ridiculously baggy and uncomfortable, the noise of them wisping with each step drove me insane, and they are made of paper… On that trip, I used them to start my fire…
So there you go, pick away!
I like to read honest reports of stuff, especially tents. And the Frogg Togg thing about using them to start a fire got me laughing, hard. They must be made for groomed trails only.
About 10 to 15 years ago, the SDs Clip Flashlight was probably the most popular tent on the Appalachian Trail and for good reason. What's even more remarkable, is that the Clip Flashlight is still being made and sold. Everybody talks about the Hubba this and the Seedhouse that and the Tarptents there, but the Clip is a near perfect tent and predates all those others by at least a decade. I miss the old Clip Flashlight 3. I just wish they made the Clip in a full canopy model with no mesh.
Rickosovitch
04-02-2009, 13:43
I am going to really try not to weigh my pack anymore. I take what I think I'll need to have a good trip. The weight-obsession just seems out of keeping with my goal of simple enjoyment.
I am going to really try not to weigh my pack anymore. I take what I think I'll need to have a good trip. The weight-obsession just seems out of keeping with my goal of simple enjoyment.
Precisely! I've never taken the time to weight each individual item... My buddy Pete weight's my pack before every trip, and then follows that with a long list of what i'm doing wrong... Yet I fully enjoy each trip, I have no trouble keeping up with him, and in fact, almost always lead, and ususally spend the afternoon keeping his motivation up to put in a few extra clicks before making camp... Usually because his back, hips and feet hurt. Yet he never complained of these things when he wore boots not trail runners, and a pack with suspension instead of relying on his sleep pad to provide support inside his pack.. Yet he still tells me what i'm doing wrong... Seems some people are immune to common sense...:cool:
FamilyGuy
04-02-2009, 14:37
[quote=FamilyGuy;814289]DAJA, I need to get you out to the other side of Canada, into the Rocky Mountains where, as TIPI said, there can be extreme temperature changes in a matter of hours (minutes?). They test this gear in their own backyard (Calgary is an hour away from the Rockies).
You won't find me anywhere near Alberta, especially Calgary any time soon... The right wing pomp and pretentousness that eminates off that land of poluting black gold makes the "poor me" attitude of Quebec welcoming... It's a shame such a beautiful place has to be involved in such a race to distruction... I would however feel quite comfortable in BC...
You mean in Quebec, Ontario, and BC where they have decimated huge tracts of land for forestry? I was going to respond to your previous post but honestly, the above post indicates that you are sorely uninformed about a lot of things.
FamilyGuy
04-02-2009, 14:39
The right tool for the job for me could therefore be called a "multi-tool."
I'm glad you brought up Integral Designs. I recently had the opportunity to test a fine ID MK3 single wall tent on a rainy winter trip and here again we delve into quibles and minor compromises. This won't be a full review of the MK3, but let me say this: I thought I could experiment with something beefy and four season and get away from my stout 8 pound Hilleberg, so I took out the ID for a test. The Hilleberg is the dryest tent I've ever had, both from the top down and the bottom up. The ID had 9 seams leaks after 3 days of cold rain, and this with fully taped inside seams. Right off I was confronted with trying to keep my down bag dry, something no shelter should allow.
Getting home and after a thorough seam sealing using several tubes of McNetts, I still found two major leaks at the door bottom wicking thru the two door lashing cords. You know how a sewn-in tie will absorb from the outside and down thru the inside? Common occurence. Shouldn't happen on an expensive, well-tested tent. And the inner canopy wicking material(tegratex??)is fine but by trying to save weight they make the tent shorter than most and of course the foot of the sleeping bag will always push up against this usually-wet stuff and dampen both the bag and the thermarest.
This is not a problem on a short weekend trip, but by trying to save weight on a long 12 day trip with day in and day out wet-and-getting-wetter gear, well, here's where the push comes to shove theory plays out. Go to what works in all conditions.
The problem with most UL shelter systems is bag compromise and wetting. I'm not talking about serious leaks or ground water pools swamping a tarptent, I'm talking about my experience with the MK3 or a single drop here and a single drop there that after a week or more of snow, rain and sleet, mounts up. Show me a shelter that keeps a bag dry in all conditions, and I'll use it and recommend it. I'm not talking about condensation, although no condensation should drip from a tarp or tent fly down onto a sleeping bag, there should be a liner or a second-wall tent canopy to dissipate 90% of this moisture. Condensation will wet a sleeping bag, pure and simple, and even in my dry double wall tent I have to deal with an inside winter coat of ice crystals. And sure, some mornings my bag is moist from exhalations and breathing, but not from actual water leaks.
I'm talking about errant leaks and water drips coming inside the tent or tarp . . . or even in a hammock if water runs down the tie-ropes. And this includes splash water from around a tent's perimeter, common with tarps. There should be none, period. If a shelter leaks, in any way, it's not worth carrying. You can tell if a tarp leaks by using one in a blizzard and finding yourself waking up covered in windblown snow. Scratch one tool off the list. And in deep cold conditions with snow and frozen everything, even the best four season bombproof tent will freeze with condensation on the inside and ice on the outside. I did a recent winter trip where it never got much above 0F for a week and after spending about 4 days stuck in my tent, even the bag needed to be aired and sun-dried as it was moist with frost and condensation. Or I should say, the shell was wet, not so much the down, cuz on the 5th day I hung it out in the sun and Zap! it was dry and lofted back up again.
I sent this post off to Evan @ Integral Designs. The continued use of these shelters at high altitudes in the worst conditions tells me you got a lemon. He would want to see this for sure.
Mind you, it is funny that you re-wrote your post on www.practicalbackpacking.com (http://www.practicalbackpacking.com) about this shelter suddently espousing the virtues and not the negatives......:-?
[quote=DAJA;814333]
You mean in Quebec, Ontario, and BC where they have decimated huge tracts of land for forestry? I was going to respond to your previous post but honestly, the above post indicates that you are sorely uninformed about a lot of things.
Yes, no question, large scale forestry is terrible, and should be outlawed. However, forests can be regrown. What do we do with toxic sludge ponds and the soil destruction caused from the removal of oil from the tar sands?
No personal attack intended...
There are technology's available that could lessen the impact of recovering oil from tar sands, but between governments pandering to business and business being more interested in the bottom line than ethical environmental stewartship, the technology is not being used..
I just don't wish to support a region of our Country that is so arrogant and cavalier to believe that what they are doing is sustainable in anyway. Further the long term effects and associated cost to repare the damage will far out wiegh the current benifits being squeezed out of the earth.
I've been there, as many of my friends and family live there, and it's an ill society. It's grown rich far to fast...
Parts of Alberta are truely beautiful, but soon spoil once you factor in the politics, attitude and industry...
Tipi Walter
04-02-2009, 16:51
I sent this post off to Evan @ Integral Designs. The continued use of these shelters at high altitudes in the worst conditions tells me you got a lemon. He would want to see this for sure.
Mind you, it is funny that you re-wrote your post on www.practicalbackpacking.com (http://www.practicalbackpacking.com) about this shelter suddently espousing the virtues and not the negatives......:-?
First off, the practical backpacking post was done several weeks ago, the above Whiteblaze was done today. I reread the PB post and it certainly contains all the negatives I listed above. They are similar and one is not copied from the other. How could I suddenly be espousing the virtues and not the negatives on the PB when the PB post was written on Feb 18?? Check the dates.
http://www.practicalbackpacking.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5917
Evan at Integral Designs is surely welcome to read my MK3 reviews, in fact most of them are on my Trail Journal for Trip 87 in December of 2008. And it must be said, after thoroughly seam-sealing ALL the seams, especially around the door and the low perimeter seam, I had no more leaks. For the pesky door tie cords, I finally had to cut them off as they were soaking up too much water and draining it inside the tent on the floor.
skinewmexico
04-02-2009, 17:33
UL is a religion, heavy and bombproof is a religion, comfort backpacking is a religion, and hammocking is a religion. A lot of you guys push the heavy stuff just as hard as others push the light stuff. Look at this thread. We forget the fun, and argue like a bunch of Methodists and Baptists and Catholics and.............
FamilyGuy
04-02-2009, 19:14
UL is a religion, heavy and bombproof is a religion, comfort backpacking is a religion, and hammocking is a religion. A lot of you guys push the heavy stuff just as hard as others push the light stuff. Look at this thread. We forget the fun, and argue like a bunch of Methodists and Baptists and Catholics and.............
Well said Joe.
I am done with this thread.
Funny thing is ....most on the board dont even have a ...well about UL,BUT they will keep posting.:-?
Post 82
"UL is probably ideal for trail walking especially for places like the AT"
There is something that really appeals to my sense of humor in that sentence, but humour is hard to explain....
Franco
Post 82
"UL is probably ideal for trail walking especially for places like the AT"
There is something that really appeals to my sense of humor in that sentence, but humour is hard to explain....
Franco
Glad to humour you... Though it was no my intent... I'm not implying that a hike on the AT is not worthy or difficult.. I envy those doing thru's and hope to be able to do my own someday... For now I will enjoy my sections.
The intention was to point to the fact that the AT is a well groomed, well marked, heavily traveled trail, with shelters and the opportunity to hit a town often, usually every 2-3 days... This allows a hiker the opportunity to resupply often. Hiker's don't have to carry and rely on thier shelter if the weather turns nasty.. We've all heard the story's of folks bailing on their tent/tarp/hammock, or not bother with it all together, choosing to rely on the man made shelters along the trail. When the weather really gets heavy, bailing the trail and taking refuge in a trail town. All of these things lend to lightening your load and traveling UL.
On the other hand, when you bushwhack, or blaze your own trail, there is no nicely groomed trail with blazes to guide you. There are no towns to resupply and no shelters to take refuge in. There are no other hikers, usually no cell service and no form of support from the outside world. If you plan to go out for 10 days, you carry 10 days worth of food and a little extra in case things go wrong. You must rely on your shelter for protection from the weather no matter how bad it gets... All of these considerations add weight to a pack, and make it less likely you will be considered UL... 10 days of food alone will weight in around 20lbs minimum. Also, when your moving through dense forest with no trail, gear takes a beating, and from experience I can tell you, silnylon, light weight poncho's and frogg toggs, trail runners and so on just will not withstand the abuse, nor should it as it was designed for travelling light on well groomed trails.. It is a specific peice of gear for a specific job.
To use Tipi's term, I prefer "multi tool" gear, meaning gear that performs in a wide variety of uses, conditions and situations. It suits my most common type of wilderness experience.
I was thinking that if I ever come across a forum dedicated to the Appalachian Trail or trails in general, that tip could come handy.
Franco
My mantra for backpacking is, "When Push Comes To Shove". It simply means, when conditions turn mean and ugly, when a 25F day zooms down to a -10F night and high winds blow in a blizzard, the right tool for the job during the day will not be the right tool at night in this storm. Hence, when push comes to shove, we download what won't work and pick up what will. A mini-epic struggle with gear will usually force us to go with stouter gear, here's where the 'push comes to shove' thing plays out.
ULers often say, you've got to have the right tool for the job, and this justifies in their minds taking UL or minimalist gear. And for the most part this might work, but when it doesn't we get to see and read the mishaps. Just Jeff had a hammock blowout in a blizzard in the Sierras and took refuge in a tent, Eric Starling had too light gear for too cold conditions, many Tarptent users love the weight but advise against using them in the snow or cold wind.
I've been thru the UL phase many times, the bivy sac madness and the tarp "covered in snow" mornings, and the windblown one-pole tipi tent billowing like an umbrella in high winds, wanting to lift off the ground and would have w/o staying up all night holding it down. I've done the whole "UL pack" thing but found it uncomfortable and next to impossible when pulling a 17 trip to the Sierras by the Yuba River. When push comes to shove, we take what works in the worst conditions, and since I was dirt poor most of my life, I took one pack, one tent, one bag and one pad for everything I might face. Sure, I could bivy sac it/bedroll camp for one month, but the next month there would be zero degrees and blizzards.
The right tool for the job means specialization, but I like to carry a tool that does all the jobs at the same time. It's heavier, but it offers more employment.
A well stated argument for YOUR gear selections. Aren't you glad we have choices?