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JumpInTheLake
03-16-2009, 23:04
I've been following the debates between the ultra-light hikers and those who pack for comfort. Many of those who pack for comfort claim to have observed cold and miserable ultra-light hikers who are not enjoying their ascetic conditions.

Let's hear the stories!

Who has directly observed miserable ultra-light hikers?

This is not to start a debate, just tell the tales please.

snowhoe
03-16-2009, 23:13
Tray mountain shelter 2006. It was raining soooo hard and there was a couple that had a tarp tent or something like it and the water was just running right thru the middle of where they were sleeping. They had to go into town at Unicoi gap to dry out. I was so glad I had a tent.

Pokey2006
03-16-2009, 23:47
Well, he wasn't an ultra-lighter, but for some reason one guy I bumped into had ditched his rain coat. I guess to save weight. It was summer, but, still, it does get cold after hiking in the rain for several hours. And, of course, it did rain. He was one very cold and miserable hiker during that rainstorm. He ended up going to town and had a new raincoat by the time he returned to the trail.

Lesson is, if you must lighten the load, don't do it at the expense of your rain coat!

McKeever
03-16-2009, 23:52
I hike as ultra light as it can get and never had any problems. I've weathered raging thunder storms that bent other hikers tent poles like match sticks and my 14oz tarp did just fine. Same for 2' of snow. Never been in danger or complained. The ones having trouble don't know what they are doing just as much as an over packed rat. Ultra light is not for most beginners, heavy packs aren't either.

chrysalis clover
03-17-2009, 00:26
The Rain In Maine...
We encountered a couple with enormous packs and hundreds of bucks worth of Goretex on their bodies, just as wet through and through as we were. Couple weeks later we encountered a pair of ultra-lighters in shorts and T's each holding some little piece of plastic thing over their heads to no apparent avail. Our own gear was somewhere between the extremes. Who was "miserable" and who was not? We were all out there; we all had inconveniences.

I'd agree that personal preference and knowing one's own skill level with whatever one does take are more important than ascribing to a particular method/style of hiking.

Bootstrap
03-17-2009, 04:17
Tray mountain shelter 2006. It was raining soooo hard and there was a couple that had a tarp tent or something like it and the water was just running right thru the middle of where they were sleeping. They had to go into town at Unicoi gap to dry out. I was so glad I had a tent.


Hmmm, I just got a tarp tent ;->

Looking at the thing, I suppose site selection is pretty important, it's not meant to be in the middle of a stream. But y ou can stay dry with just a tarp, don't see why this shouldn't work.

Jonathan

mtnkngxt
03-17-2009, 07:04
Theres a difference between UL people and unprepared people. Not carrying a suitable shelter be it a tent, tarp, hammock, bivy... or not knowing how to properly deploy and use said shelter is not dependant on how much it weighs or what it is made of. I laugh at people in 50lb packs huffing and puffing up big hills. When they get to camp they have 3 pots to cook the same lipton sides we all eat. I believe in the theory of multi use. My ULA rainskirt can also be used as a ground sheet. MY tang cup can be used as a water scoop or a drinking cup sans a drop of bleach and some hot water inbetween uses. I guarantee that in anything less than full on noreaster or hurricane conditions a 6lb tent will not keep you any drier than my tarp or hammock and tarp. HYOH but don't assume you that you can tell others about something you do not practice because it makes and a** out of you not me.

bigcranky
03-17-2009, 07:21
Hmmm, I just got a tarp tent ;->

Looking at the thing, I suppose site selection is pretty important, it's not meant to be in the middle of a stream. But you can stay dry with just a tarp, don't see why this shouldn't work.

Correct, site selection is crucial, just like using a tarp. I've had no issues in serious rain and snow with my tarps and tarptents.

I've met many unprepared hikers, but I think most of them had monster packs. Much of it has to do with experience and skill level.

Jorel
03-17-2009, 07:26
Great thread. I heard in the Whites in 2006 from a guy carrying a 55 lb pack "go lite, go cold, go hungry, go home". He was obviously not an ultralite guy. I have no problem with anyone carrying 100 lbs if they think they need it, and they can carry it. These days, however, anyone can be, at a minimum, "lite", and still comfortable. I also do not think you need to spend a fortune to be "lite", just focus on multi use. My Packa is my rain coat and my ground sheet for my Wild Oasis 18 oz tent. I see no need for more than one cup. My water treatment is either Steripen or CD tabs. etc etc. If others need more, want more, and are willing to carry more, I have no problem with that either. My only issue with "ultra lighters" is when they come into camp and ask directions from my guidebook because they wanted to save a few ounces not carrying their own, or ask to borrow other "comfort" items. If you claim to be an ultra lighter, live the life. Don't expect me to make your life comfortable in camp so you can be comfortable hiking the trail.

Lone Wolf
03-17-2009, 08:13
i love boiling water and making hot cocoa for hypothermic go-liters that constantly stumble into camp. they don't carry stoves so i'm glad to help out.

Frick Frack
03-17-2009, 08:15
My only issue with "ultra lighters" is when they come into camp and ask directions from my guidebook because they wanted to save a few ounces not carrying their own, or ask to borrow other "comfort" items. If you claim to be an ultra lighter, live the life. Don't expect me to make your life comfortable in camp so you can be comfortable hiking the trail.

Good point. I do not remember anyone carrying too much asking for something other than advice but I can recall numerous occasions of someone not carrying enough asking to borrow what they need. That drives me crazy!!!

To answer the question to this post though, I have seen "cold & miserable" hikers equally distributed among the many types of hikers but one episode comes to mind for the request of an ULer story. On my 1st section hike of the AT with my brother-in-law we hiked the GSMNP. We stayed at Tri-Corner Knob one night and a guy showed up who was trying to hike the park (75 miles) in two days. He was proud of his weight of around 10lbs (maybe less??). He came into the shelter wet & cold and got in his bag to warm up. He was shivering & miserable. He did not have a stove to fix a warm meal and refused some tea we offered. He did not have a warm enough bag, no pad, and not enough clothes. He was packed to move fast and far but not prepared for the elements (in my mind). I admired him though because he refused any help and wanted to learn for himself what mistakes he had made. He got to Newfound Gap the next day and hailed a cab to the airport and flew back to FL. I was carrying 60+lbs at the time as it was my 1st section hike so I had the opposite problem....I was carrying WAY too much.

stumpknocker
03-17-2009, 08:48
This issue has everything to do with personal experience and knowing what you can live with or without on the Trail.

I know a guy whose base packweight is 6 pounds and he has done the three long Trails comfortably. I hiked with him some on the AT in '02 and he was completely self sufficient to get from one re-supply to the next.

I saw him in East Glacier when he was walking the CDT in '07 and his pack looked small, but somehow he survived. That "somehow" was knowing what worked for him.

Personally, my kit is usually in the low 20 pound range with food and water. I have no idea what my base pack weight is and I don't care. I carry what I know I need to make me comfortable on Trail and what I know I need to survive comfortably.

I've never run into any ultra light hikers that needed help, but I have run into hikers that have needed help. That takes me right back to my first sentence in this post. :)

Ender
03-17-2009, 08:51
I have seen more cold and miserable heavy weight hikers than UL hikers, but my guess would be the percentage of each would be about the same. Or even a little higher for the heavy weight hikers, since a lot of them tend to be inexperienced weekenders carrying cotten t-shirts and jeans.

I'm a mid-weight hiker, neither UL or UH... my pack sits, full with food and water, about 25 pounds, which is what works for me in terms of carrying and camp comfort. It's all about personal experience, and knowing what works for you.

DavidNH
03-17-2009, 09:34
Well, he wasn't an ultra-lighter, but for some reason one guy I bumped into had ditched his rain coat. I guess to save weight. It was summer, but, still, it does get cold after hiking in the rain for several hours. And, of course, it did rain. He was one very cold and miserable hiker during that rainstorm. He ended up going to town and had a new raincoat by the time he returned to the trail.

Lesson is, if you must lighten the load, don't do it at the expense of your rain coat!

Man of all the things to get rid of.. his rain gear!!!! This is up there with getting rid of your hat and mittens in the mountains in October! lesson learned I guess. I take it this chap hadn't done much hiking in the Applachians!!

DavidNH

JAK
03-17-2009, 09:39
Staying warm is mostly about clothing, and knowing the coldest and wettest it might get before you leave, and how much clothing you actually need for such conditions.

Lightweight hikers tend to arm themselves with more knowledge and better information.
They are also more likely to test their clothing systems, and themselves.

I suppose a few of them might spend too much time grinding down toothbrushes.

I've been cold and wet and miserable lots of times though.
Hiking, sailing, paddling, skiing, playing in the snow, whatever.

So what?

JAK
03-17-2009, 09:41
If your not cold and miserable some of the time you're doing something wrong.
That's not about saving weight though. That's just living right.

4eyedbuzzard
03-17-2009, 09:46
Man of all the things to get rid of.. his rain gear!!!! This is up there with getting rid of your hat and mittens in the mountains in October! lesson learned I guess. I take it this chap hadn't done much hiking in the Applachians!!

DavidNH

I always find one of the best examples of "I won't need that" is all the people without any warm hats on a cool(cold) windy day on Mt. Washington in July. You just know they're in pain.

Jayboflavin04
03-17-2009, 09:50
Being a noob and not knowing what works for me. I know I have probably blown my 30lbs target. That is ok! I will pack it I will accept the weight penalty. I have some comfort/cushion built into my trip.

But that is my goal of the trip to take careful inventory of my gear and work backwards.

Take a look give me your thoughts March 29th-April 3rd Allens Gap - Erwin

Base layer- columbia mid wght polyester-not sure
Inulating Layer - Montebell UL down jacket- 10oz
OR Ion wind shirt- 3.5oz
3x total socks- smartwool hiker socks
(above item stored in Sea-2-summit dry sack big enought for sleeping bag if weather is really wet)
Zip off leg style TNF pants
columbia Titanium T-shirt for hiking
Montrail non-gortex mid hiker
Marmot Precip top/bottom
WM Ultralight
Titanium Goat bivy 6 oz (cushion comfort item, really wet cold snap or shelter use)
HS TT Cloudburst 2
Prolite 3
Feather Fire alky stove...carrying xtra fuel...learning curve- 30oz total fuel.
Snow peak Ti cook kit/Stainless camp cup (already owned cup)
Mini Bic
MLD bearbag
2L Platy hoser
2.5L platy carried empty for camp
1 Nalgene for measuring and making drinks
Sweetwater filter/aqua mira backup
BD Trail Trekking poles
(Ditty Bag)
firesteel
map/compass/first aid/hygene 1/2 MSR pack towel
50' 2mm rope
15' 2mm shock cord (experiment with TT)
Leatherman micra
Book(learning to read map and compass)
2 bandana...one in first aid kit
Note pad/pencil
Camera (cannon point n shoot)
head lamp
TP(1/2 roll no tube) n half pack wet wipes


Osprey Aether 70(not my first choice in packs Heavy but comfortable)
Pack cover
Have plenty of room left over in my pack!

McKeever
03-17-2009, 09:55
Good point. I do not remember anyone carrying too much asking for something other than advice but I can recall numerous occasions of someone not carrying enough asking to borrow what they need. That drives me crazy!!!

To answer the question to this post though, I have seen "cold & miserable" hikers equally distributed among the many types of hikers but one episode comes to mind for the request of an ULer story. On my 1st section hike of the AT with my brother-in-law we hiked the GSMNP. We stayed at Tri-Corner Knob one night and a guy showed up who was trying to hike the park (75 miles) in two days. He was proud of his weight of around 10lbs (maybe less??). He came into the shelter wet & cold and got in his bag to warm up. He was shivering & miserable. He did not have a stove to fix a warm meal and refused some tea we offered. He did not have a warm enough bag, no pad, and not enough clothes. He was packed to move fast and far but not prepared for the elements (in my mind). I admired him though because he refused any help and wanted to learn for himself what mistakes he had made. He got to Newfound Gap the next day and hailed a cab to the airport and flew back to FL. I was carrying 60+lbs at the time as it was my 1st section hike so I had the opposite problem....I was carrying WAY too much.

I wonder how many noobs just read a book on light hiking and don't follow the complete system and make sub par substitutes for lack of preparation. It seams that most of the observations here here are about hikers who left critical components out of their pack like maps and substituted under rated gear like an inadequate sleeping bag. For stoves, even Jardine stated in his book that he regretted not carrying a stove on their AT thru so LW is right, always carry a light stove. I always carry full maps, data pages, companion pages, stove, 20 degree bag, and 10x12 sil nylon tarp, and the rest of the essentials. LW is easy and works but it seams like hikers invested in other gear resist change.

Yahtzee
03-17-2009, 09:55
Stories of miserable ULer's pale in comparison to the numbers of miseries heaped upon those who carry too much. But that complaining usually just gets lumped in with the general hiking complaints that accompany each days' hike. If those with too much carried lighter gear they would bitch so much less.

As was said earlier, there is a big difference between being UL and unprepared. BTW, I'm not UL but I do incorporate many UL gear choices and much of the philosophy when filling my pack. I carry a go-lite pack and a tarptent and now a down bag that weighs only slightly more than a pound. But I also carry a thermarest and a filter. My pack isn't UL but is consistently under 20 pounds.

Anyone who skimps on clothing, which I have been guilty of from time to time, deserves to suffer the consequences of that choice. Just as those with three sets of pants deserve to have their knees in pain at the bottom of a long downhill. Choices and responsibility for those choices. One of the beauties of hiking is that the consequences of our choices are apparent and directly affect our daily lives on the trail. Gets one's head on straight real quick.

Fiddleback
03-17-2009, 09:56
I'm a pretend UL-er. I've cut my pack weight way down but the base weight is still 12-14lbs...usually the 14lbs.:eek:

I can honestly say that I've never been cold, wet or otherwise miserable since I started practicing UL. I can also say I haven't been cold, wet or miserable since very early in my time with the Boy Scouts back in the '60s.

Which is my point. If you're cold, wet or otherwise miserable you have done something wrong (or had an accident which kinda' circles back to having done something wrong...). There is a learning curve to comfortable and enjoyable backpacking. UL is merely another technique/method of backpacking which comes with some of its own lessons to be learned but still requires the common skills of foresight, planning and good decision making. Once cold or wet should be enough to convince one to do things 'better.' I know it sure convinced me, way back when.

My group in the Scouts had a saying, "Any fool can be uncomfortable." While I may at times be foolish, I haven't been uncomfortable on the trail in a very long time (the steeper, unending, always uphill trails in my part of the Northern Rockies excluded;)). Since I started attempting UL I've enjoyed better meals and better sleep on the trail then ever and those improvements are accompanied by a pack weight that has been cut in half.

Now...if only I could find a loop trail that was all downhill...

FB

JAK
03-17-2009, 09:57
Clothing insluation, not counting shells and shoes, needs to be about 1 ounce per degree below 85F. For 50F about 2 pounds. For 35F about 3 pounds. For 20F, about 4 pounds. Not sure what that has to do with the typical UL vs Heavy debate, which seem preoccupied with gear lists and backpacks rather than climate and clothing.

Climate and Clothing. Know before you go.

stumpknocker
03-17-2009, 10:24
For stoves, even Jardine stated in his book that he regretted not carrying a stove on their AT thru so LW is right, always carry a light stove.

That may be right for LW and it may have been an after thought for Jardine, but that doesn't necessarily make it right for anyone else.

I very rarely cook a meal. I'd much rather eat cold no matter what season.

I guess what I'm saying is; Always carry a stove if that works for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. :)

nufsaid
03-17-2009, 10:30
That may be right for LW and it may have been an after thought for Jardine, but that doesn't necessarily make it right for anyone else.

I very rarely cook a meal. I'd much rather eat cold no matter what season.

I guess what I'm saying is; Always carry a stove if that works for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. :)

But what about that coffee habit?

Jayboflavin04
03-17-2009, 10:30
I always find one of the best examples of "I won't need that" is all the people without any warm hats on a cool(cold) windy day on Mt. Washington in July. You just know they're in pain.

First thing I put on when I am chilly! That is a really stupid thing....which goes to say I didnt put that on my list i posted earlier.....but I have one!

stumpknocker
03-17-2009, 10:41
But what about that coffee habit?

Now that's a GREAT reason to carry a stove!! (and that's all I use a stove for mostly)

Although I'm actually starting my next walk in a couple weeks with a stove, but I'm not planning on carrying coffee. :eek:

I'm already thinking I'll ditch the stove as soon as I use up the twelve Mountain House dinners I got at Dick's Sporting Goods for $2.50 each. They were originally priced at $7.50 each which is why I don't eat them.

I just don't like most trail meals you cook with a stove....I'd much rather eat cold food. I like the walking part of backpacking WAY more than I like the camping part. :)

clured
03-17-2009, 10:47
One mistake I made with UL gear early on was not really internalizing the fact that there are some items in your pack that are sacrosanct, that should only be messed with if you are really, really, really sure that you won't need them / can use something lighter. I had about five blistering hot nights on the way into Damascus on the AT in 2007, got fed up with my 20 degree down bag, and switched it out for a really light liner bag. Bad idea. I froze my buns off for about a week afterward.

My rule is to never, ever mess with the sleeping bag or shelter. If you can get out of the rain, and can snuggle up in a good bag, then you can weather just about anything, however wet the rest of your stuff may get!

Also, I did about 1800/2174 miles of the AT stoveless, and preferred it to the stretch that I had the stove. Once you get used to eating cold, it just feels like such a hassle to boil water, mix stuff up, and then, by far the worst part, do dishes...

Camping Dave
03-17-2009, 10:57
just don't like most trail meals you cook with a stove....I'd much rather eat cold food. :)

One fellow I hiked with last weekend made something he called tamale pie: ground beef, corn, green chilis, tomato soup (all dehydrated), taco seasoning, a little cayenne pepper. Cooked it, threw some corn muffin mix on top. Yummy.

The only guy who had a problem was the lightweight packer. No stove, no fuel, no clothing to change into after the sky drizzled on us all day. Climbed into his thin little bag in damp clothes.

stumpknocker
03-17-2009, 11:11
One fellow I hiked with last weekend made something he called tamale pie: ground beef, corn, green chilis, tomato soup (all dehydrated), taco seasoning, a little cayenne pepper. Cooked it, threw some corn muffin mix on top. Yummy.

The only guy who had a problem was the lightweight packer. No stove, no fuel, no clothing to change into after the sky drizzled on us all day. Climbed into his thin little bag in damp clothes.

The food sounds good...and probably was after walking all day. :)

Are you sure the lightweight guy had a problem?? The no stove, no fuel, no clothing to change into part sounds like it could be me, but I've never had a problem with any of those things. I carry a much warmer bag through out the three warmer seasons though. It's a 10 degree bag that weighs just two pounds. I mostly fall asleep without it when it's warmer out and just pull it over me like a quilt if I chill down.

It's quite possible that guy was comfortable...I know I would have been.

Dogwood
03-17-2009, 11:19
Theres a difference between UL people and unprepared people.

That tells the story in a nut shell !!!!!

Camping Dave
03-17-2009, 11:22
Are you sure the lightweight guy had a problem?? The no stove, no fuel, no clothing to change into part sounds like it could be me, but I've never had a problem with any of those things.

Yeah, he was shivering. I boiled some water for him to drink, we gave him some warm food, and he was ok. In the morning he was shivering again so we pumped him full of warm food and drink. He slept in a 20 degree TNF, which looked pretty thin compared to my 15 degree WM.

Mags
03-17-2009, 11:26
I always find one of the best examples of "I won't need that" is all the people without any warm hats on a cool(cold) windy day on Mt. Washington in July. You just know they're in pain.

On the hikes I lead here, I tell people to ALWAYS bring a hat and mittens/gloves.

On the easier, beginner ones at least half of the newbies don't listen to me.

Then the wind picks up, the temps drop and I pull out my stash of spare gloves and hats. :sun

Those people learn the lesson in a much nicer way than it could have been. ;)



"Theres a difference between UL people and unprepared people.

That tells the story in a nut shell !!!!"

Indeed. Unprepared knows no weight boundaries...

stumpknocker
03-17-2009, 11:43
Yeah, he was shivering. I boiled some water for him to drink, we gave him some warm food, and he was ok. In the morning he was shivering again so we pumped him full of warm food and drink. He slept in a 20 degree TNF, which looked pretty thin compared to my 15 degree WM.

Sounds like that hiker learned a good lesson about what works for him...or what wasn't working for him, and you were nice enough to make it easier on the guy. :)

prain4u
03-17-2009, 12:18
Once you get used to eating cold, it just feels like such a hassle to boil water, mix stuff up, and then, by far the worst part, do dishes...

I have always carried some type of stove and/or cooking equipment. However, I have really enjoyed those meals (or those days) when I didn't cook. Thus, I REALLY agree with the quote above.

A "compromise" for me is eating military (or military-style) MREs (Meals Ready to Eat). They come with their own chemical-based heater. Just add water and it heats your meal. (You can also eat them cold). The meal is in a disposable foil pouch. If you want, you can also use the enclosed disposable spoon. Thus, you get a hot (high calorie) meal--but no real cooking and no dishes.

(I don't carry the entire MRE with me--too heavy and too bulky for my tastes. I only carry those components that I really want. Sometimes, I leave the disposable heater home. If I want the MRE hot, I actually boil water and heat the food package in the boiled water. MREs are not cost-effective for a long hike.)

clured
03-17-2009, 12:36
Yup, prain, no doubt that the hot meal can taste very good out there from time to time. But the question for me is always if it's worth the effort that goes into it. I also tend to want to eat IMMEDIATELY when I stop for a meal, and always get annoyed at having to cook stuff up. I'd usually prefer a nutritious pop tart to a mountain house!

Darwin again
03-17-2009, 13:03
Clothing insluation, not counting shells and shoes, needs to be about 1 ounce per degree below 85F. For 50F about 2 pounds. For 35F about 3 pounds. For 20F, about 4 pounds. Not sure what that has to do with the typical UL vs Heavy debate, which seem preoccupied with gear lists and backpacks rather than climate and clothing.

Climate and Clothing. Know before you go.

Would this work equally well for a One-eyed fat man and an Army Ranger?

I hike in the same clothes if it's 85 degrees or if it's 70 degrees, fifteen degrees less. According to the formula, I should be wearing/carrying (?) what, a pound more insulation? And what role does wind play in this equation? How about if I eat a full box of mac 'n cheese before I start out in the morning to stoke the furnace?

Everyone has a different metabolism, level of fitness and body fat index, plus weather varies wildly, which means clothing adjustments.

I don't switch to long pants until the temp gets to about 40 degrees. In 20 degree weather, I'm into full winter gear, meaning if I break my leg, I can cozy up and lie there for two days if I need to. But when I'm hiking along like a steam train in the snow I can get by with only a fleece and a pair of wind pants, adding maybe a pound and a half of clothes to my body.

Rules of thumb are nice, but only starting points.
My winter base pack weight is around 26, including pack, tent, sleeping bag, hats, gloves, long underwear, extra socks, fleece, wind shells, shorts, ditty bag, journal, blah blah.

(Food, water and fuel weigh extra, no matter what time of the year. Food is the heaviest thing I carry; no "backpacking" food like the freeze dried packaged stuff or jerky etc, I can't live on that stuff. Just real food, bagels, cheese, newtons, nuts, cookies, Barilla tortellini, peanut butter, barbecued chips, corn chips, etc. the weight savings versus nutritional content in the expensive packaged meals just doesn't work for me, FWIW. I don't save weight but I save money and get more energy out of real foods, I find, not to open another can of worms...)

Pony
03-17-2009, 13:11
I would bet that anyone who has hiked, has been cold, wet, and miserable at some point, regardless of their gear. As stated earlier, it probably has more to do with preparation and experience than anything.

Mags, I like your approach of letting people learn on their own, it kind of reminds me of taking my girlfriend hiking. She didn't want to wear polyester (for fashion reasons) or bandanas, or use hiking poles, or any number of other things. On the first day, she was she was completely soaked with sweat. I presented her with a polyester t-shirt and a bandana to keep the sweat out of her eyes. Not only did I get to be right for a change, but she thought I was great for thinking about her well being.

GGS2
03-17-2009, 13:59
Would this work equally well for a One-eyed fat man and an Army Ranger?
...
I don't switch to long pants until the temp gets to about 40 degrees. In 20 degree weather, I'm into full winter gear, meaning if I break my leg, I can cozy up and lie there for two days if I need to. But when I'm hiking along like a steam train in the snow I can get by with only a fleece and a pair of wind pants, adding maybe a pound and a half of clothes to my body.

Rules of thumb are nice, but only starting points.
My winter base pack weight is around 26, including pack, tent, sleeping bag, hats, gloves, long underwear, extra socks, fleece, wind shells, shorts, ditty bag, journal, blah blah.

JAK's rule of thumb is a good point of departure, maybe, but consider this. For real UL, everything you carry should contribute to keeping you warm, hydrated and fed at the worst condition you might encounter. If you are hiking along at full speed, your heater is food, and you can do without a lot of clothing so long as you have food and water. If you are in an enforced stop, such as having to wait out a storm or an injury, your heater is less food and more insulation. Likewise if you stop to admire the view.

If you find yourself in a real survival situation, you may need to be able to gather wood and light a fire, or to build a shelter, even if you are injured. If you get wet, such as in a creek crossing dump, or an ice breakthrough, or a big storm, you may find yourself in hypothermia trouble no matter what you brought. Then you have to know how to get out fast, or how to survive where you are. That's when the other items, such as maps, fire starters, knife, compass, even GPS these days, or a phone can make the difference.

Most of us (well, me anyway) carry enough fat that food is last on the list of necessities. First up is adequate shelter and insulation, and the means to carry and collect water. I can go a week without food, or until I get to be as thin as I should be. Even with a thin bag and an inadequate tarp, I can survive quite well in three seasons, even when I am damp all the time, and it is raining constantly. Just a few layers of fleece and wind/rain and I'm good for most of the day on the move. But if I stop for the day at dusk, and I'm still damp (from rain or from perspiration), and my bag is light, my tarp not good for the wind, I'm going to have all my damp clothes on and still be cold. So for comfort, I'm going to want to carry a better bag and a good wind/rain shelter, be it tarp or tent.

Since I can't predict the weather well enough to be certain, I carry as much insulation as I would for full on wind and wet every time I overnight. Up where I hike, a wet summer night with wind can be as cold as an early snow fall. Don't make rash assumptions.

Winter is another story. More insulation, more food, more fire (mostly for water), etc. But the same get-me-out-of-here kit, and survival stuff.

Did I forget to mention bugs? Nets for night, and clothes to cover bare skin. I don't like black flies, and mosquitoes and gnats are really, really annoying. We don't get many chiggers or ticks yet, but they are coming soon to a field nearby.

And I wear the lightest shoes I feel good in, mesh, with wool socks, in all seasons except deep snow winter. Mitts and hat, too.

garlic08
03-17-2009, 16:05
Here's a story. On April 14 2008, in the middle of the NOBO pack, Pickle and I had the Ice Water Springs shelter in GSMNP all to ourselves. It was the first shelter we slept in on the AT, and we were kind of glad for it because we had hiked in a blizzard all day. Temps in the teens, a foot of fresh powder, drifted over the knees in places. We had this very popular shelter (didn't even have a log book) to ourselves because every other one of the dozens of hikers we passed that day bailed out at Newfound Gap to get under a roof in Gatlinburg. We dropped our 10-pound packs, took off our trailrunners, put on our dry socks. and had a cold snack and a good sleep in our 2-pound Marmot Helium 15 bags. The next day we had the Park to ourselves, an ice palace in the sunshine. Late afternoon we caught up with some other hikers who got caught in the blizzard, one limping in leather boots with frost-bitten feet.

So why were the UL guys in trail runners having a great day, while the heavy hikers with boots, stoves, and tents were either bailing or getting hurt? As has been said several times above, it's the experience with the gear, not the gear.

Darwin again
03-17-2009, 16:44
My story of freezing with too little gear:

It was early April and I pulled up at the last shelter before Spy Rock and the Priest in Virginia after a nice day of slogging.

Weather was clear and breezy and just cold enough for me to need to put on fleece or jacket when I stopped. I remember that this annoyed me and I was having a bad day out there, just kind of dragging, might not have eaten enough that morning, whatever. I had pretty much all my winter gear set except the silk long johns, but for whatever reason I was dragging.

I arrived at the shelter, went for water, changed my socks and, because it was late afternoon and nobody else was there, I pitched my tent inside one side of the shelter. I was cooling off, so changed into my thicker sleeping socks, hat, muffler, t-shirt, fleece top, wind pants and jacket, gloves, dry t-shirt under all that. Had something to eat. It got later and the sun went down and the temperature plunged.

I took off some outer layers and crawled into my 20 degree WM bag inside the tent inside the shelter. I don't like pitching in shelters because leaves are always more comfortable than the plank floors, but I figured the shelter would block some wind and I'd be better off. WRONG. I froze. The shelter acted like a refrigerator there in the breeze as it got colder and colder. I eventually put on all my clothes inside my bag and managed just a little sleep. When I crawled out in the morning, my platypus water carrier had frozen an inch deep all around with ice. It was bitter cold.

I learned my lesson and that was the coldest night I've ever spent on the AT to this day. Now, when it's cold, I always tent and I don't do it in a shelter; I'm on the leaves.

Maybe I packed a little light that time.
It was just one of those things, one of those days followed by one of those nights.
Moral of the story? Watch out hiking the AT in April, 'cause it'll freeze ya.

bigcranky
03-17-2009, 16:59
Maybe I packed a little light that time.
It was just one of those things, one of those days followed by one of those nights.
Moral of the story? Watch out hiking the AT in April, 'cause it'll freeze ya.

You had all your winter gear and a 20-F bag, and it got below freezing. It doesn't sound like you had too little gear. It sounds like you were getting sick, or didn't have enough food (food=heat), and staying in the shelter certainly doesn't help.

My lovely wife froze her buns off one night at the Barn in Tennessee, and it barely got below freezing. She was sick, which made it very hard for her to regulate her core temperature. Big problem. She had a good 10-F bag, big down jacket, winter layers, etc., and she still froze. That's not a gear problem, it's an illness problem -- which no amount of heavy gear would have helped.

Blue Jay
03-17-2009, 17:10
I have heard stories about UL hikers having problems but never actually seen this happen. I've also heard about people with too heavy packs having problems but also have not seen this happen, other than some heavy breathing. I consider them both to be like Yeti.:banana

maxNcathy
03-17-2009, 17:20
Test your raingear before you go.
When mine leaked badly I got too cold for comfort as it was frosty like outside and I was getting tired of hiking fast.

George
03-17-2009, 17:49
for cold nights in a shelter a bivy makes a very small volume to heat. I look at the leaves in the shelter( the corner with the most leaves gets the least wind) and sleep against the wall. My last night last Jan just N of pearisburg the radio said -3 in the new river valley so -5 to 10 on the ridge the bag was a 0 but out for a month with out washing. The shelter roof was gone but the bunks were in place and I set a sheet of plywood on the side of the bunk and hung my rain coat over the opening. I was fine but it was the first time I used a pee bottle and I stayed in there until the sun was on me.

McKeever
03-17-2009, 18:02
That may be right for LW and it may have been an after thought for Jardine, but that doesn't necessarily make it right for anyone else.

I very rarely cook a meal. I'd much rather eat cold no matter what season.

I guess what I'm saying is; Always carry a stove if that works for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. :)

Great minds think alike. We all eat cold sometimes for convenience, however, convenience doesn't bode well compared to the benefits of having a stove on hand even us not used every day. It's all about the preparation and like bringing maps, but not needing to look every day. If nothing else, a complete esbit cooking setup only weighs a few ounces and doubles up as an emergency fire starter.

Egads
03-17-2009, 19:34
I agree with a few of the other posts that inexperience and inadequate gear leads to miserably cold hikers / campers.

I took a hammock, fleece bag, ridgerest pad, wool sweater, raincoat, and fleece hat on my first multi-night hike on the AT, which was in October a few years ago. My pack weighed ~25 lbs setting out for a four day hike. I had tested this set up in the backyard to 40* in calm weather. The forecast was for a low of 42*. However the weathermen missed the forecast and a front moved in with lows around 35* and 15-20 mph winds. I didn't know anything about site selection, set up on a ridge and was unaware that I should have set up perpendicular to the wind so the tarp blocked it. Needless to say, I froze my @ss the first night the front hit. I used every possible item I had for insulation, pack, bag, platy, extra socks, food bag, and used the pillow over my torso.

Discomfort is a great motivator and I quickly learned to pack for 10-15* lower than the forecast. It was a good excuse to buy some quality gear. I'm good at the same temps with a 12-14 lb loaded pack now and sleep on the ground in winter.

It's inexperience & improper gear selection for the conditions, not lack of weight that causes problems.

SGT Rock
03-17-2009, 19:49
So far I've only ever seen one ultralight guy in a little trouble. He was a thru-hiker who decided that it was time to get rid of some weight in Pearisburg. He hiked out without a real sleeping bag and no clothing with sleeves or long pants at all - this was in May or June mind you. He was using a Wal-Mart fleece "bag" which is about worthless. He froze up that night at that first shelter north of town. He did hike north out of there with his light load, but I don't know how long until he realized he went too light too fast.

Other than that, all the hikers I have seen in trouble have all been "heavy hikers" with injuries, more attention to gear than food (gave some guys food at Blue Mountain Shelter once), cotton gear, etc.

Hikers sometimes gotta learn the hard way.

kayak karl
03-17-2009, 19:50
i have noticed one thing,
some people are just MISERABLE!
has nothing to do with their pack.
IMO:)

SGT Rock
03-17-2009, 19:51
i have noticed one thing,
some people are just MISERABLE!
has nothing to do with their pack.
IMO:)
Absolutly.

rickb
03-17-2009, 19:51
I've seen a few lightish hikers held hostage in their sleeping bags.

That good if you like the slumber party thing.

prain4u
03-17-2009, 23:22
How miserable someone is on the trail, usually comes down to preparation, experience, and using common sense. In my opinion, someone's degree of misery has very little to do with whether (or not) they are going ultralite.

AN EXAMPLE:
I have done WINTER "survival" camping in Northern Wisconsin. I carried basically not much more than the warm clothes that I was wearing, a knife, a little bit of trail mix, a canteen of water, and something with which to start a fire. I didn't have a pack, a shelter, a sleeping bag, etc. You can't get much more ultralight than that! Nor, do you usually get much colder than Northern Wisconsin in winter.

Yet, I managed to stay warm, dry, hydrated, and fed. I was not miserable.

The skills and experiences THAT I CARRIED IN MY HEAD were much more important to my level of comfort than anything that I could have carried in a backpack. (In my never humble opinion)

JAK
03-18-2009, 07:56
Clothing insluation, not counting shells and shoes, needs to be about 1 ounce per degree below 85F. For 50F about 2 pounds. For 35F about 3 pounds. For 20F, about 4 pounds. Not sure what that has to do with the typical UL vs Heavy debate, which seem preoccupied with gear lists and backpacks rather than climate and clothing.

Climate and Clothing. Know before you go.


Would this work equally well for a One-eyed fat man and an Army Ranger?

I hike in the same clothes if it's 85 degrees or if it's 70 degrees, fifteen degrees less. According to the formula, I should be wearing/carrying (?) what, a pound more insulation? And what role does wind play in this equation? How about if I eat a full box of mac 'n cheese before I start out in the morning to stoke the furnace?

Everyone has a different metabolism, level of fitness and body fat index, plus weather varies wildly, which means clothing adjustments.

I don't switch to long pants until the temp gets to about 40 degrees. In 20 degree weather, I'm into full winter gear, meaning if I break my leg, I can cozy up and lie there for two days if I need to. But when I'm hiking along like a steam train in the snow I can get by with only a fleece and a pair of wind pants, adding maybe a pound and a half of clothes to my body.

Rules of thumb are nice, but only starting points.
My winter base pack weight is around 26, including pack, tent, sleeping bag, hats, gloves, long underwear, extra socks, fleece, wind shells, shorts, ditty bag, journal, blah blah.

(Food, water and fuel weigh extra, no matter what time of the year. Food is the heaviest thing I carry; no "backpacking" food like the freeze dried packaged stuff or jerky etc, I can't live on that stuff. Just real food, bagels, cheese, newtons, nuts, cookies, Barilla tortellini, peanut butter, barbecued chips, corn chips, etc. the weight savings versus nutritional content in the expensive packaged meals just doesn't work for me, FWIW. I don't save weight but I save money and get more energy out of real foods, I find, not to open another can of worms...)I agree that rules of thumb are nice but only starting points. Also, I think everyone should develop their own rules of thumb from personal research and experience. Thanks for the queery.

JAK
03-18-2009, 08:02
i have noticed one thing,
some people are just MISERABLE!
has nothing to do with their pack.
IMO:)lol
I'm one of those, which is why I hike solo mostly.
I'm most truly miserable when I forget my lighter and can't make fire and tea.

yaduck9
03-18-2009, 08:56
Well, he wasn't an ultra-lighter, but for some reason one guy I bumped into had ditched his rain coat. I guess to save weight. It was summer, but, still, it does get cold after hiking in the rain for several hours. And, of course, it did rain. He was one very cold and miserable hiker during that rainstorm. He ended up going to town and had a new raincoat by the time he returned to the trail.

Lesson is, if you must lighten the load, don't do it at the expense of your rain coat!

Your stating that someone "ditched" his rain coat to save weight by "guessing" ? that's a pretty hefty condemnation of ultra lighters all based on a "guess", don't you think so?

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:04
He said he wasn't an ultralighter. Why would anyone ditch a 4-8oz rain shell?
People are more likely to ditch something if it is too heavy.

yaduck9
03-18-2009, 09:08
Tray mountain shelter 2006. It was raining soooo hard and there was a couple that had a tarp tent or something like it and the water was just running right thru the middle of where they were sleeping. They had to go into town at Unicoi gap to dry out. I was so glad I had a tent.


Was water running through your site or were you smart enough to pitch your tent where there was good drainage?

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:11
Sometimes you never know where the water might run in a hard rain.
The best solution in such circumstances is a good sense of humour.

kyhipo
03-18-2009, 09:12
:-? seen people use them their emergency blankets as a real blanket.The problem is they sound like a candy bar wrapper allnight long.ky

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:17
I tried hiking without socks one summer. lol
I had these nike running shoes that were sort of like sandals, but weren't.
Got wicked blisters, and a root stuck into the side of my foot.

After I crossed Little Salmon River in bare feet on my way back I removed the old duct-tape and stuff, and dried my feet off in the sun, then decided to try walking in barefeet for awhile as the trail ahead was mostly spruce needles and stuff. That was awesome. So I did learn afew things from my misery.

1. Always bring at least one pair of socks.
2. Have a contingency plan when testing vital gear like footwear.
3. Sometimes walking a few km in barefeet is very good for blisters and sore feet.

Darwin again
03-18-2009, 09:18
Thanks for the queery.

Queery?
Is that Canadaspeak for some word in the English language? :-?

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:19
I think its British. It has a couple of meanings.

Stop being such a queery. :D

Darwin again
03-18-2009, 09:38
I tried hiking without socks one summer.

According to his book, "Walking with Spring" Earl Shaffer put sand in his boots to toughen his feet early in his first Thru hike.

(That generation was a different breed of American than most of us.)
(Poncho, hatchet, iron skillet, bags of cornmeal, all inside a canvas ruck.)

This is the relevant passage from his book (page 9, 1st graf):
"The pack look heavy and it was, but not for long. My shoulder already were sore and some adjustments obviously were necessary. Ben Franklin, one of the wisest men who ever lived, once said, 'Experience keeps a dear school but fools lean in no other.' The lesser fools as those who learn in a hurry. By rearranging the contents of the pack to cause a forward shift in weight and by discarding the large back pocket it was possible to ease the burden. Long distance backpacking is a rugged business and should be handled accordingly. Both bulk and weight are hindrances and must be kept to a minimum. My motto is, "Carry as little as possible but choose the little with care."

On food? "Cornmeal mush, with raisins and brown sugar and canned milk, tasted mighty good right then. Such food isn't fancy but it sticks."

Darwin again
03-18-2009, 09:39
I think its British. It has a couple of meanings.

Stop being such a queery. :D

I forgive you for your backward ways.:p

Darwin again
03-18-2009, 09:43
Sometimes you never know where the water might run in a hard rain.
The best solution in such circumstances is a good sense of humour.

The key to understanding water is this: water runs down hill and collects in low spots until it can run downhill again.

Remember Canuck, WATER RUNS DOWN HILL.
There's this thing called "gravity"...
(There will be a quiz later, so write this down!)

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:47
Oh if life in the woods were always so simple.

"O wonder! How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world! That has such people in't!"

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:51
There was alot of ultralight hiking over 100 years ago also though. Like that fellow that travelled the Adirondaks in a canoe that weighed about 10 pounds, and a pack that did not weigh much more than that. People have been travelling light, even ultralight, since the dawn of time.

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:54
I forgive you for your backward ways.:pMake up your mind. Are we Canucks too liberal, or too backwards. :D

Pedaling Fool
03-18-2009, 09:54
There was alot of ultralight hiking over 100 years ago also though. Like that fellow that travelled the Adirondaks in a canoe that weighed about 10 pounds, and a pack that did not weigh much more than that. People have been travelling light, even ultralight, since the dawn of time.
True, cavemen were the ultimate U/L'ers. Then we started using our brain and carrying more, now were starting to carry less...the more things change the more they remain the same.

JAK
03-18-2009, 09:57
True enough. True progress is a myth.

From Stone to Steel
E.J. Pratt (1932)

From stone to bronze, from bronze to steel
Along the road-dust of the sun,
Two revolutions of the wheel
From Java to Geneva run.

The snarl Neanderthal is worn
Close to the smiling Aryan lips,
The civil polish of the horn
Gleams from our praying finger tips.

The evolution of desire
Has but matured a toxic wine,
Drunk long before its heady fire
Reddened Euphrates or the Rhine.

Between the temple and the cave
The boundary lies tissue thin:
The yearlings still the altars crave
As satisfaction for a sin.

The road goes up, the road goes down -
Let Java or Geneva be -
But whether to the cross or crown,
The path lies through Gethsemane.

Pedaling Fool
03-18-2009, 10:13
If there is anything to Cellular Memory, than maybe all the U/L’ers are made up predominately of the same atoms that made up cavemen and heavyweighters are made up predominately of atoms of the Spartans or something.

JAK
03-18-2009, 10:19
Well there is something to that yes.
Some of the so-called cave men were like ULers, even gram weenies.
Most of the so-called cave men were more like the majority of people today.
But of course you take any majority and you can always slice them and dice them into minorities.

Christus Cowboy
03-18-2009, 10:30
I ran into a boyscout on the Ridge Trail that had a tarp tent with a plastic ground cloth laying on the ground..... I told him it looked like a nice tent but expressed concerns about his site selection being in a low lying area of Martin's Fork. He pretty much blew me off by stating that since I use tent and not a tarp that I didn't understand the mechanics of how one worked..... Subsequently, he spent the rest of the evening bragging about the 16oz. weight and poking fun at everyone else for their "heavy" tents..... until that night when a heavy storm blew which resulted in a sizeable river running beneath his tarp and through his sleeping area..... The next morning it looked like a disaster. He was cold and wet and strangely silent which was in stark contrast to his performance from the night before....

I guess the moral of the story is that an utra-light tarp has its benefits in terms of weight but bad site placement can make for a miserable night.....

Pootz
03-18-2009, 10:32
Tray mountain shelter 2006. It was raining soooo hard and there was a couple that had a tarp tent or something like it and the water was just running right thru the middle of where they were sleeping. They had to go into town at Unicoi gap to dry out. I was so glad I had a tent.


Before you go mentioning a gear manufacturer you should be sure. a tarp tent and something like it are very different.

I have had my tarp tent squail 2 in very hard windy rain and have had no problems.

As with all tents the user has to know how and where to set them up.

skinewmexico
03-18-2009, 11:57
I ran into a boyscout on the Ridge Trail that had a tarp tent with a plastic ground cloth laying on the ground..... I told him it looked like a nice tent but expressed concerns about his site selection being in a low lying area of Martin's Fork. He pretty much blew me off by stating that since I use tent and not a tarp that I didn't understand the mechanics of how one worked..... Subsequently, he spent the rest of the evening bragging about the 16oz. weight and poking fun at everyone else for their "heavy" tents..... until that night when a heavy storm blew which resulted in a sizeable river running beneath his tarp and through his sleeping area..... The next morning it looked like a disaster. He was cold and wet and strangely silent which was in stark contrast to his performance from the night before....

I guess the moral of the story is that an utra-light tarp has its benefits in terms of weight but bad site placement can make for a miserable night.....

Another moral would be don't trash talk, because God (or Karma, depending on your personal preference) has a sense of humor.

skinewmexico
03-18-2009, 11:58
Make up your mind. Are we Canucks too liberal, or too backwards. :D

Is this a trick question?

JAK
03-18-2009, 11:59
He seems to be particularly fond of irony. ;)

JAK
03-18-2009, 12:00
Is this a trick question?Yes, it is. lol

Darwin again
03-18-2009, 12:36
True, I enjoy me some irony!
It weighs almost nothing...

It might be fun to try a section hike using only the gear Earl Shaffer carried.
Any volunteers? (I'm not gonna do it!) :D

JAK
03-18-2009, 12:55
God couldn't give us both free will and justice, so he gave us irony as well. ;)

Darwin again
03-18-2009, 13:28
Don't drag God into this.
It's the internet for pete's sake...

I think it was Napoleon who said, "Religion is the only thing that keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

Now that's irony.

steve
03-21-2009, 21:50
Spent the night on top of Blood Mtn GA in an early season snow storm. I had a 32 deg light weight sleeping bag. The temp got down to 10 deg. I slept with all my clothes, jacket, etc. but you just can't get enough on the feet. I'll be better prepared next time.

Spirit Walker
03-21-2009, 23:27
On the PCT, there was a hiker a day ahead of us who decided to tackle a 30 mile dry section with only one quart of water. He was a strong fast hiker and figured he could easily do it in one day. He hadn't counted on the fact that it had been burned a few years before so there was no shade and it was quite hot. Fortunately, he ran into some southbound hikers who helped him out - but then they were low for that long stretch. Some years there's a water cache in that stretch - but not when we walked it.

On the AT we ran into some section hikers who were expecting spring weather in North Carolina in late April. It snowed instead. They had no warm clothes and summer sleeping bags. They ended up borrowing warm gear off the thruhikers! Mostly they stood around the fire (bare legged) and waited for dawn.

take-a-knee
03-21-2009, 23:52
Don't drag God into this.
It's the internet for pete's sake...

I think it was Napoleon who said, "Religion is the only thing that keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

Now that's irony.

You need not drag him, he can find his own way.

Dostoevsky said, "If there is no God, all things are permissable."

take-a-knee
03-21-2009, 23:54
Before you go mentioning a gear manufacturer you should be sure. a tarp tent and something like it are very different.

I have had my tarp tent squail 2 in very hard windy rain and have had no problems.

As with all tents the user has to know how and where to set them up.

The "pancake" floors on Shire's Tarptents work as well as any other tent floor, IMO. A VAST improvement over the early floorless versions.

take-a-knee
03-21-2009, 23:56
True enough. True progress is a myth.

From Stone to Steel
E.J. Pratt (1932)

From stone to bronze, from bronze to steel
Along the road-dust of the sun,
Two revolutions of the wheel
From Java to Geneva run.

The snarl Neanderthal is worn
Close to the smiling Aryan lips,
The civil polish of the horn
Gleams from our praying finger tips.

The evolution of desire
Has but matured a toxic wine,
Drunk long before its heady fire
Reddened Euphrates or the Rhine.

Between the temple and the cave
The boundary lies tissue thin:
The yearlings still the altars crave
As satisfaction for a sin.

The road goes up, the road goes down -
Let Java or Geneva be -
But whether to the cross or crown,
The path lies through Gethsemane.

Powerful stuff JAK, many thanks.

Tinker
03-22-2009, 00:04
I've been following the debates between the ultra-light hikers and those who pack for comfort. Many of those who pack for comfort claim to have observed cold and miserable ultra-light hikers who are not enjoying their ascetic conditions.

Let's hear the stories!

Who has directly observed miserable ultra-light hikers?

This is not to start a debate, just tell the tales please.

I've BEEN one upon occasion.:o
Last time was during the spring last year with the Parade of Fools in Massachusetts. I opted to use my poncho-tarp over my hammock instead of bringing a larger tarp. We were caught in a line of thunderstorms and the rain blew sideways under my tarp. Most of me stayed pretty dry, but my butt, hanging down the lowest, did not. Since it was an overnighter, I just hiked out the next day and dried my stuff at home. A 5.5x 9.5 tarp isn't quite big enough for a hammock (maybe if I'd hung it on the diagonal ala Hennessy Hammock I would've stayed drier).
Ground tarping with the poncho is a drier option unless there's rain running underneath. Problem there is that there's not room for doing much of anything, including getting into and out of bag and bivy.
Live and learn isn't only for newbies (but experience is probably still the best teacher).:datz

Bronk
03-22-2009, 04:49
I notice a common thread is that a lot of people freeze their butt off coming out of Pearisburg...I had a similar experience...

I had sent my warm clothing home (it was the end of May, so I don't need it anymore right?). Two days out of Pearisburg I woke up to snow...it snowed until after noon...I stayed in my sleeping bag until it stopped...I had a 50 degree bag, a pair of shorts, a pair of nylon pants and a tshirt and a rain jacket for clothing. I had gone to sleep in the shelter with my tent and rainfly wrapped around my sleeping bag and was able to stay warm enough...I hiked 2 miles down the trail and on the other side of the mountain it was 75 and sunny...I felt stupid for sitting in my bag all morning.

But I wonder what the ultralighters do in such situations. Two in particular come to mind...one guy I met wore a sleeveless tshirt and a pair of shorts, and his only shelter was a sheet of tyvek housewrap that he had duct taped into the shape of a sleeping bag.

The other guy wore shorts and a tshirt and carried just about as close to zero gear as you can get...he had some army parachute cord that he tied into some crude shoulder straps and he tied what little gear he had to it...all he carried were a few power bars and a bottle of water and a small blanket.

hootyhoo
03-22-2009, 10:10
I went out for 4 days right around christmas. (A predicted warm spell with a chance of rain turned bad in the mountains.) I was heading up to meet someone at 5000 feet. It rained like crazy. All night long the first night. I survived the rain with a super low tarp pitch - not super comfy, but I was kinda proud of it. By the time of my second day the weather turned colder, the wind picked up, the sky was black in the distance and moving my way and I could not see the mountain top anymore due to thick fog - I had to stop at 3500' and make a decision - I could not even see the mountain I was heading to due to thick fog - if the temps continued to drop would I be miserable at 5000' in pea soup fog? I had to choose. I bailed. Obviously I needed more clothing and a more substantial shelter. The lite gear I had would have been very uncomfortable in those conditions. The guy I was supposed to meet said it was well below freezing and he could not see at all with white light - and only 6' with red light. He said the wind picked up and gusted around 40 mph. Lite gear sent me back down to low elevation like a frightened baby chipmunk and I missed out on all that, arrrggghhh. If I had "heavy gear" I would have been fine up there. It cost me on that trip.
To me - lite gear does not give me the confidence I need. It is fine in summer and the shoulder seasons, but if there is a chance that things will turn bad I need confidence that heavy gear brings with it. Big fat heavy gear with all the trimmings - and all stuff I'll never use. Bone bending, back breaking, roid poppin, grunting, groaning, tiny boy crushing gear. The stuff adventures are made of - and I'm daimned proud of it. Woohoo!
(chants) Super Tioga, Super Tioga, Sooooper Tiogaaaaa!!!

SGT Rock
03-22-2009, 10:14
According to his book, "Walking with Spring" Earl Shaffer put sand in his boots to toughen his feet early in his first Thru hike.

(That generation was a different breed of American than most of us.)
(Poncho, hatchet, iron skillet, bags of cornmeal, all inside a canvas ruck.)

This is the relevant passage from his book (page 9, 1st graf):
"The pack look heavy and it was, but not for long. My shoulder already were sore and some adjustments obviously were necessary. Ben Franklin, one of the wisest men who ever lived, once said, 'Experience keeps a dear school but fools lean in no other.' The lesser fools as those who learn in a hurry. By rearranging the contents of the pack to cause a forward shift in weight and by discarding the large back pocket it was possible to ease the burden. Long distance backpacking is a rugged business and should be handled accordingly. Both bulk and weight are hindrances and must be kept to a minimum. My motto is, "Carry as little as possible but choose the little with care."

On food? "Cornmeal mush, with raisins and brown sugar and canned milk, tasted mighty good right then. Such food isn't fancy but it sticks."
Earl's shelter was a poncho - he sent his tent home. His sleeping bag was a wool blanket. He only had a kettle and a spoon with no stove. His food bag was a burlap sack. His clothing was wool with a sweater. He even started cutting parts of his pack to lighten it up and make it load better. He didn't have a filter.

Basically he was an ultralighter with different gear.

nitewalker
03-22-2009, 10:39
This issue has everything to do with personal experience and knowing what you can live with or without on the Trail.

I know a guy whose base packweight is 6 pounds and he has done the three long Trails comfortably. I hiked with him some on the AT in '02 and he was completely self sufficient to get from one re-supply to the next.

I saw him in East Glacier when he was walking the CDT in '07 and his pack looked small, but somehow he survived. That "somehow" was knowing what worked for him.

Personally, my kit is usually in the low 20 pound range with food and water. I have no idea what my base pack weight is and I don't care. I carry what I know I need to make me comfortable on Trail and what I know I need to survive comfortably.

I've never run into any ultra light hikers that needed help, but I have run into hikers that have needed help. That takes me right back to my first sentence in this post. :)


you would think that most people could figure this out on their own. im sure their have been many socalled comfort hikers who have not been able to manage their setup properly at times. i suppose if i set up my shelter in a water drainoff area that i would be miserable no matter what i had for a shelter[excluding a hammock]...if people use their brains then both groups will do fine and if not then pay the price....