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Hammock Hanger
05-30-2004, 12:57
The night before I headed to trail days I stayed up in Rock Gap Shelter just up the road from Rainbow Springs Campground.

The shelter being really close to a road is almost covered in graffiti. I noticed those further away from roads have less.

As experienced hikers who use the shelters as your home while on the trail how do you feel about graffiti??:bse


Sue/Hammock Hanger

Lone Wolf
05-30-2004, 13:00
Doesn't bother me at all, course I don't stay in shelters. But when I usta it didn't bother me.

Kerosene
05-30-2004, 14:00
While I'm not thrilled with folks' need to deface buildings with graffiti, I do tend to read some of them. I'm much more accommodating if they don't use a knife to carve into the wood. All in all, I'd rather not see it, but I don't know how you stop it.

Brushy Sage
05-30-2004, 15:35
I was turned off by most graffiti and carvings. The one exception was in a very old shelter in Georgia, where people had carved their initials and dates: my favorite was "G. W., 1776."

steve hiker
05-30-2004, 15:45
I like the carvings and scribblings left behind by others. It's like a time machine into past, especially the older ones. I've seen signatures left from '68, the 70s, and quite a few from the 80s. It's like they left a piece of themselves that you can peer into the past with.

I remember the first time I saw an AT shelter, I spent about an hour just looking around, looking at the mementos left from the past. You could almost see the hikers from '77 who spent a rainy afternoon there. It was like I had entered a time capsule, very quaint and poignant.

Kozmic Zian
05-31-2004, 10:51
Yea.....Graffiti. I've done it. Don't do it anymore. Realized it's kinda' like Litter. LNT ya' know. Best leave it undone, who needs to agrandize oneself in the wilderness? Live & Learn. Besides, what if it was like near cities, where they graffiti everything, UGGGH!, Right? KZ@

Lone Wolf
05-31-2004, 11:00
The shelters themselves spit in the face of "LNT".

Jaybird
05-31-2004, 11:19
stayed in the Deer Park Shelter (built in 1938) just south of HOT SPRINGS,NC this past May 2004...it was overflowing with graffitti...most dating back to the 60s....i enjoyed reading most of the "notes"...& all the while wondering if, maybe,...Earl SHaffer had slept there during his legendary,early Walk with Spring! :D

Percival
05-31-2004, 11:42
The word graffiti has negative connotations, so this thread has a bias to begin with. "Graffiti" evokes images of urban spray painting and vandalism. I think there's a difference between hikers leaving their initials and short comments, and graffiti.

Lilred
05-31-2004, 12:37
The word graffiti has negative connotations, so this thread has a bias to begin with. "Graffiti" evokes images of urban spray painting and vandalism. I think there's a difference between hikers leaving their initials and short comments, and graffiti.


I agree with Percival. I think it was at Muskrat Creek shelter I saw the name of Ed Garvey. It looked like it had been etched into the wall and someone else had come along and outlined it. There's a lot of history written on those walls. I've seen other names I recognized as well.

VAMTNHIKER
05-31-2004, 14:56
The word graffiti has negative connotations, so this thread has a bias to begin with. "Graffiti" evokes images of urban spray painting and vandalism. I think there's a difference between hikers leaving their initials and short comments, and graffiti.
I agree Percival...

and yet I feel a a proper PC response... perhaps due to my Scout upbringing...

I would not feel comfortable leaving any markings on the shelters.

...now if y'all tell me it OK... ::grin::

The Old Fhart
05-31-2004, 15:59
Lilredmg-"I think it was at Muskrat Creek shelter I saw the name of Ed Garvey. It looked like it had been etched into the wall and someone else had come along and outlined it"
I don't doubt that Ed Garvey's name is there but I do doubt that it was Ed who put it there. As a lover of the AT it doesn't sound like anything he would do. I have been to both Muskret Creek shelters, the old A-frame and the new shelter which was built in 1995. Ed last attempted a thru hike in 1990 and I met him on the trail just before he dropped off for health reasons. I don't know that he did much hiking after his bypass surgery. I have a feeling that that graffiti falls into the same class as "George Washington slept here."

Skyline
05-31-2004, 21:31
I don't see any difference between ugly urban graffiti and ugly shelter graffiti. They are both selfish acts committed by people with big egos who are afraid someone won't remember them five minutes from now.

Shelter registers are the place to leave your name and your thoughts. If you want or need to be thought of as a legend, write a book.

Footslogger
05-31-2004, 22:29
Seems like the most common piece of shelter grafitti in 2003 was "SMOKE WEED". Some folks got so outraged by it that they launched a crusade to cover it over and find out "who dunnit". Saw it practically all the way from Springer to Katahdin.

'Slogger

Tater
05-31-2004, 22:56
Doesn't bother me. People have been scribbling and drawing on walls of caves and cliff dwellings since the dawn of civilization.

One day, budding anthropologists working on their dissertations will spend thousands of hours coming up with a theory to explain the strange names of the woodsmen who habited these crude dwellings along a remote mountain footpath. :D

Floops
06-01-2004, 19:43
The most humorous that I've seen is the "mouse count" at the Blue Mountain shelter. It was a hash-mark count of all the meeces supposedly killed there since it was started.

Of course, if folks would quit killing the shelter snakes, that wouldn't even have been there. We always seem to try to bring our town values to the trail, with predictable results.

Chip
06-01-2004, 20:52
Alot of hard work goes into building a shelter. The Deep Gap and Plumorchard Gap in GA are 2 examples. A new shelter is going up right now at Roaring Fork in NC. I am sure there are other super neat shelters in the other states that I will see as I section hike the AT. There is no place for graffiti in a shelter ! It is written litter on the wall ! It is an eye sore ! There are too many billboards
on the highways of this country, sure don't need to see more graphics out in the back country on shelter walls. I agree with Skyline. If hikers want to leave a message or make their mark then write or draw in the shelter register !!

Rain Man
06-01-2004, 23:00
Of course, if folks would quit killing the shelter snakes, that wouldn't even have been there....

Ain't that the truth?! Each shelter needs a pet snake or two. No more mice problems.

Rain Man

.

Tha Wookie
06-01-2004, 23:10
At Tray Mt. Shelter somebody wrote "Pack it in... Pack it out" in HUGE letters with a magic marker (in a very messy and careless way so it looks like trash). Seems they forgot their own lesson. I didn't even read the rest of the many markings. But I did carry other people's trash out.

Happy
06-01-2004, 23:19
Ain't that the truth?! Each shelter needs a pet snake or two. No more mice problems.

Rain Man

.

Even the copperheads are not that agressive...let them clear out the mice!

Skyline
06-04-2004, 11:03
Those of you who think it's cool or even just not a big deal for there to be shelter graffiti--have you ever had to sand and paint over it? As a shelter maintainer, I have, and believe me I'd rather be hiking.

In Shenandoah National Park (and many other places I'd guess) we are expected to eliminate graffiti. Since it is volunteers doing this work it gets done with varying degrees of regularity and completeness. But before you carve or spray paint the next time--please try to remember those who will come along behind you who have to deal with your vandalism. Better yet, volunteer to do something GOOD for the A.T. and stop making it like some urban ghetto.

The worst I've seen in recent years is what just one person did to the historic, CCC-era rock work at one of our SNP huts. In just a few minutes, he or she and a cheap can of black spray paint destroyed the appearance of what outlasted tens of thousands of hikers, hurricanes, nearby fires, and almost 70 years of beautiful sunrises. We've tried everything we know of but cannot quite get it back the way it was.

Thank you.

SavageLlama
06-04-2004, 17:11
Save the graffiti for the shelter registers.. where it belongs.

Jack Tarlin
06-04-2004, 21:53
Skyline:

Great post. And thank you for for all your work over the years.....I've seen it!

U-BOLT
06-04-2004, 22:25
Spray paint is one thing, someone's carved name is something else. The carvings and small scribblings add to a shelter's character over the years, and should be left alone.

Skyline
06-06-2004, 10:31
Spray paint is one thing, someone's carved name is something else. The carvings and small scribblings add to a shelter's character over the years, and should be left alone.


I have to disagree. Defacing a shelter by carving initials, slogans, or entire statements doesn't add character, it just makes the shelter ugly. Hundreds of volunteer hours went into erecting and maintaining that shelter; have some respect for that please.

If some gang member carved his initials or a gang symbol in a building in Southeast Washington or Southcentral LA--instead of spray painting it--would you also say that added character to the neighborhood? I'd hope you'd see it for what it is--one person's malicious disregard for private (or public) property that detracts and doesn't add anything positive.

Just because it's a shelter doesn't make it OK. Hikers don't have special rights to do what would be considered a crime everywhere else. Do you honestly believe that the idiots who defaced so many consecutive shelters last year by carving the words "Smoke Weed" added character to those shelters? By your reasoning, since they didn't use spray paint, they must have just added a little character.

Want to add character through your words or artistic abilities? You can do that just as well in a shelter register. Better yet, you can have a more lasting impression upon the character of the A.T. by joining a trail crew or volunteer in some other way.

smokymtnsteve
06-06-2004, 10:39
some graffiti is art..some is garbage..depends,

but I have seen some great graffiti intown... \

Tater
06-06-2004, 14:50
I have to disagree. Defacing a shelter by carving initials, slogans, or entire statements doesn't add character, it just makes the shelter ugly.
This sounds like a matter of opinion to me. About half the people here like shelter graffiti, and half do not. I agree with the comments that over time it gives a shelter a sense of history which doesn't exist in the registers. I really don't think anyone here is talking about spray paint except you, Skyline. It's unfortunate that it's happened at a couple of shelters, but you're mixing apples and bulldozers.

"Art and beauty are in the eye of the beholder."

Skyline
06-07-2004, 21:28
You’re right, Tater, carving is the preferred method of vandalism. But if you’ve actually hiked the whole A.T., you surely know that spray painting has happened at more than a couple shelters. I doubt that today’s weight-conscious hikers are lugging around cans of spray paint. It’s more likely the weekenders and spring breakers, and usually the closer a shelter is to a road the more likely it is to be trashed.

Still, graffiti begets more graffiti, regardless of the implement used to produce it. And when someone with a can of spray paint sees pre-existing graffiti they see it as a license to do much more than they otherwise would. Ask anyone trying to clean up urban neighborhoods where graffiti is a way of life. Those that have swift eradication programs often get it under control. Where they don’t, it spreads like kudzu vines in the South. It’s a copycat thing.

Ever notice that the neighborhoods where graffiti is the worst are also the high crime areas? Urban activists have proven there is a direct correlation between graffiti and a lack of respect for property, the environment, and perhaps most importantly--people.

It’s no different in the woods, and especially at shelters. Clean, well maintained shelters without graffiti do not encourage most folks to leave behind trash, broken bottles, stack the firepit with unburnables, foul the springs, or ignore other LNT principles. Where “anything goes,” you often have a real mess.

Graffiti gives shelters a sense of “history?” Surely you can think of a dozen better ways to preserve history.

Lone Wolf
06-07-2004, 21:36
We have young men dying daily in Iraq. Shelter grafitti is a non-issue. Shelters go against your "LNT" BS principles.

Skyline
06-07-2004, 23:04
Agree, Wolf, men (and women) dying in Iraq is a lot more serious than almost anything we talk about here.

So we talk anyway, but that doesn't mean we don't care about weightier issues in the world. Some of us participate in other forums and are involved in non-cyber activities that would prove the point.

Strictly speaking, I guess shelters do violate LNT principles but they also concentrate usage so hikers (including those who don't know what they're doing) aren't out everywhere creating many dozens more problem sites. It's a trail management tool among other things.

Curious: Why do you think LNT is BS? I agree some treat it like BS, but why is the goal of LNT something you'd call BS?

Tater
06-07-2004, 23:54
Skyline, is it your posts that are vandalizing the page margins? Im no computer geek but I bet if you shortened your Location box by abbreviating Shenandoah National Park to SNP, the margins would fall back into place.

Skyline
06-08-2004, 11:00
Tater, I have no idea what you're talking about (page margins). Mine look fine. But since you asked so nicely, I've done as you requested. Hope it looks better on your end.

I'm not a geek either, but I do know web pages can look different, even their layout can change sometimes, depending on what resolution your monitor is set at. Mine is set at 1280x1024.

highway
06-09-2004, 08:46
Yea.....Graffiti. I've done it. Don't do it anymore. Realized it's kinda' like Litter. KZ@

Funny you mention that.

I became soaked a few weeks ago coming across Mt Albert in a rain and hail storm (I pulled the poncho out to late and the shelter was a little further than I thought)and dried out in Big Springs shelter about 3/10 miles or so from the top. Having little else to do, drying out, i began reading the grafitti, killing time as it were. There I saw, written in large block letters across the left side of the main front beam, the words "KOZMIC ZIAN". I smiled, as I recalled you were a poster here, and wondered about your trip and the conditions of your stay at the very same place. So, i agree that graffiti is kinda like litter. But that little bit at least brought out a smile. :)

Seraphim
06-09-2004, 11:16
This is my first post, and it just sooooo happens, it's my birthday. And who knew? Today is the day I'm leaving for Maine... from Damascus. I'm starting late, but it's just been weighing on my mind, and I wasn't planning on hiking until next year... Anyway... shelter graffiti... I love it. When it's carefully crafted and well thought out. Gives me something to look at besides trees and the pages of a book I've read three times. A lot of the graffiti is from day hikers and teenagers. Damn, people, stop being so uptight. Why does it matter if someone carves into wood or writes on the walls? Makes the shelters different, all things considered. The shelter is already there, they're not doing anything but adding colour and texture. I myself have never graffitied a shelter, LNT, but I somewhat enjoy looking at past visitors' work. I always liked to 'tag' on buildings in Cali and, suprisingly, Ohio. Actually, I just tagged a garbage dumpster two days ago at a college in WV. *~Seraphim smiles

ripple
06-09-2004, 14:41
Seraphim

You must be the coolest person in the world. Wow, tagging is like so cool. Even in Ohio, wow.

Kozmic Zian
06-09-2004, 21:11
Yea.....Thanks for not being too hard on me about that, Highway. I did a few in the naievete of the 1st Thru Hike. Never again, realizing the foolisness of the act. Wish you could erase it for me, though. Kindof like a tatoo isn't it? Don't do it guys.....No good. KZ@:o

smokymtnsteve
06-09-2004, 21:21
What is wrong with a tattoo?

Mountain Dew
06-10-2004, 01:09
Shelter graffiti might be fine for some of you, but I dare say that it isn't o.k. for somebody that builds or maintains a shelter. Knowing that, most of the people that already think it's acceptable would still do it. Not one of you would think it o.k. to put graffiti on your property either. Why is it then o.k. to mark up something that isn't yours ? The answer is: It's NOT ! Selfishness takes over and all kinds of excuses will be given to rationalize your marking on what isn't yours. I wasn't suprised that somebody actually thought that Ed Garvey carved his name into a shelter wall. If you saw "Elvis was here" on a shelter wall would you then think he had been there ? I met a few idiots that didn't respect others on the trail in 2003 and am not suprised in the least that a few frequent Whiteblaze with the same disrespect. Let the back peddling and change of topic begin I'm sure....

L. Wolf ..."We have young men dying daily in Iraq. Shelter grafitti is a non-issue." ---Few things are an issue compared to our soldiers dying in Iraq. You seem to repeat the above quoted statement often. You buying a harley, drinking beers, spending countless hours sitting on a stool at Dot's carrying on non-issue conversations, and I'm sure countless other habits are also non-issues compared soldiers dying in Iraq. The fact is is that this thread is one of the most valid issues I've seen on this site. Sgt. Rock , who is a Vet of the current war, spends countless hours on this webpage and it's issues. I'm sure he or attroll would delete non-issues.

Let reading comprehension skills take over please Lord....

Happy
06-10-2004, 01:46
Shelter graffiti might be fine for some of you, but I dare say that it isn't o.k. for somebody that builds or maintains a shelter. Knowing that, most of the people that already think it's acceptable would still do it. Not one of you would think it o.k. to put graffiti on your property either. Why is it then o.k. to mark up something that isn't yours ? The answer is: It's NOT ! Selfishness takes over and all kinds of excuses will be given to rationalize your marking on what isn't yours. I wasn't suprised that somebody actually thought that Ed Garvey carved his name into a shelter wall. If you saw "Elvis was here" on a shelter wall would you then think he had been there ? I met a few idiots that didn't respect others on the trail in 2003 and am not suprised in the least that a few frequent Whiteblaze with the same disrespect. Let the back peddling and change of topic begin I'm sure....

L. Wolf ..."We have young men dying daily in Iraq. Shelter grafitti is a non-issue." ---Few things are an issue compared to our soldiers dying in Iraq. You seem to repeat the above quoted statement often. You buying a harley, drinking beers, spending countless hours sitting on a stool at Dot's carrying on non-issue conversations, and I'm sure countless other habits are also non-issues compared soldiers dying in Iraq. The fact is is that this thread is one of the most valid issues I've seen on this site. Sgt. Rock , who is a Vet of the current war, spends countless hours on this webpage and it's issues. I'm sure he or attroll would delete non-issues.

Let reading comprehension skills take over please Lord....


Hudson, what are you saying that LW is an idiot...I have been on this site since it was subpar 500 members and i disagree with your assumption after reading his 1000 1 liners!!!

Mountain Dew
06-10-2004, 01:59
Happy...No, I was not saying that Lone Wolf is an idiot nor was I assumming anything. Your assumptions are incorrect. My opinions of Lone Wolf don't really play a factor in my response. I do, however, think he is a fairly inteligent person.

Happy
06-10-2004, 02:18
Happy...No, I was not saying that Lone Wolf is an idiot nor was I assumming anything. Your assumptions are incorrect. My opinions of Lone Wolf don't really play a factor in my response. I do, however, think he is a fairly inteligent person.

I am glad we agree on that aspect!!!

Lone Wolf
06-10-2004, 07:24
hehehehehehe :D

Kozmic Zian
06-11-2004, 11:20
Yea.....Wrong With? Nothing......'cept like graphitti, it's hard to get off once you put it on! Right? KZ@

Kozmic Zian
06-11-2004, 11:27
Yea......Wow! Like really cool man.....you must really love the 'tags' you make. Like, wow, man.....get a real life. Markin' up stuff? Why do you hike? To see billboards, phone lines, industrial waste, grafitti, asphault parking lots, and all that crap, right? Please, live and learn, like I did. KZ@

Skyline
06-11-2004, 15:04
Thank you Mountain Dew and Kosmic Zian...I couldn't have said it better.

Maybe some of these guys who think of graffiti as some twisted sport will get a life once someone "tags" their car, or if they ever get a life and purchase a home someone "tags" it.

ATSeamstress
06-22-2004, 22:10
I don't care for graffiti, but I did get a laugh out of the
"privy ratings" in North Carolina. I think it was Brown Fork
Gap shelter that had a "5 star rating" because the privy
only had one wall. No stink due to the ventilation and
a terrific view.

Blue Jay
06-30-2004, 08:56
Funny you mention that.

I became soaked a few weeks ago coming across Mt Albert in a rain and hail storm (I pulled the poncho out to late and the shelter was a little further than I thought)and dried out in Big Springs shelter about 3/10 miles or so from the top. Having little else to do, drying out, i began reading the grafitti, killing time as it were. There I saw, written in large block letters across the left side of the main front beam, the words "KOZMIC ZIAN". I smiled, as I recalled you were a poster here, and wondered about your trip and the conditions of your stay at the very same place. So, i agree that graffiti is kinda like litter. But that little bit at least brought out a smile. :)

Yea Koz, I noticed some of your work in the shelters north of Pearisburg. It would be nice if you did a little Trail Majic and undefaced these shelters since you live in the area.

Lobo
06-30-2004, 09:16
Brown Fork Gap Shelter privy.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/3327/size/big/password/0/sort/1/cat/500