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buff_jeff
03-30-2009, 18:08
and any of the other miscellaneous techniques you'd need on the PCT? Are they even necessary? Self-arrest seems kind of straight forward, but do I need a course in it?

snowhoe
03-30-2009, 18:09
Well I think it has something to do with hand cuffs.:)

medicjimr
03-30-2009, 18:28
Well I think it has something to do with hand cuffs.:)

You beat me to it

Egads
03-30-2009, 18:33
here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM3xLshmNnk

take-a-knee
03-30-2009, 18:35
and any of the other miscellaneous techniques you'd need on the PCT? Are they even necessary? Self-arrest seems kind of straight forward, but do I need a course in it?

It would be a good idea to practice it, you need a steep bowl of firm spring snow with a safe runnout at the bottom, IE, no big rocks or ledges. You might be able to watch videos and figure it out but a knowledgeable coach would be best.

Desert Reprobate
03-30-2009, 18:46
No, No, No. You have to practice on a steep hillside with lots of boulders and trees. Keep the training real.

Egads
03-30-2009, 18:55
No, No, No. You have to practice on a steep hillside with lots of boulders and trees. Keep the training real.

Watch out for the 1000 foot cliff :eek:

warraghiyagey
03-30-2009, 19:07
I've tried it a number of times but get bored sitting in the back of my car waiting for someone to drive me to the police station. . .

Bearpaw
03-30-2009, 19:10
I learned it in the Marine Corps and used it (and taught it) with NOLS. From what I hear of PCT'ers, an ice axe generally isn't a necessity. Of course there ARE better-than-nothing techniques for self arrest without an axe (elbows and toes kicking like all get out).

With or without an ice axe, practice it before you need it.

1azarus
03-30-2009, 20:15
you need this skill to score well on the heavily viewed Rate Your Hiking Ability (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48517) thread. and the ice axe.

Sly
03-30-2009, 20:26
Not everyone carries ice axes, but being able to self arrest has saved more than a few PCT hikers from serious injury or worse.

I had set up a time to learn from a guy at a ski slope in PA but we never got together. As mentioned above, a save run out is a good place to practice if you've read or seen the basics.

kayak karl
03-30-2009, 20:42
with a long handled straight claw hammer in a metal hammer hook on your belt. climb to the peak of a roof (12-12 to 8-12 is best) as you slide down roof, with one hand on the hammer head and other on handle you DRIVE it through the roof sheathing. practice makes perfect.
PS i repair roofs in the Tri-State Area 1-800-GOTLEAKS

Slo-go'en
03-30-2009, 20:46
Since it's not likely you will have an ice axe to do a classic self arrest, the best you can do is roll on your belly and drag the handles of your trecking poles into the snow. Hope the snow has some give to it and isn't icy. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the ride for ever long it lasts...

Toolshed
03-30-2009, 21:08
Read The Mountaneers "Freedom of the Hills".
You can learn self arrest on steep snow covered side slabbed hills. On less steep sections that are not long runs, you can try with your trekking poles, but if you are carrying an ice axe, it is best that you learn how to use it properly.

Spirit Walker
03-30-2009, 21:24
A couple of the hikers who went through the Sierras at the time we did had to self-arrest.

I've never take a course or done any serious practice, but I've had to carry an ice axe on both the CDT and PCT and have ended up using the ice axe both when I fell and on a long butt slide down Forester Pass. I learned the basics out of the Mountaineers book. Mostly I just use the axe to stay stable so I don't fall and don't need to self-arrest. If I'm on a steep slope, I dig the point in with every step. Most of the time that works, but it's slow. My falls were short ones where I got careless because it wasn't that far down. Twice the point held and I stopped - once it didn't.

Sly
03-30-2009, 23:18
Since it's not likely you will have an ice axe to do a classic self arrest....

Why do you say that? There's quite a few PCT hikers that carry ice axes.

Black Diamond also makes a hiker pole called the Whippet with a claw

take-a-knee
03-30-2009, 23:25
with a long handled straight claw hammer in a metal hammer hook on your belt. climb to the peak of a roof (12-12 to 8-12 is best) as you slide down roof, with one hand on the hammer head and other on handle you DRIVE it through the roof sheathing. practice makes perfect.
PS i repair roofs in the Tri-State Area 1-800-GOTLEAKS

Now that is some funny stuff, so true, so true! When your a$$ is on the line, you'll at least try to figure it out.

weary
03-30-2009, 23:35
Not everyone carries ice axes, but being able to self arrest has saved more than a few PCT hikers from serious injury or worse.

I had set up a time to learn from a guy at a ski slope in PA but we never got together. As mentioned above, a save run out is a good place to practice if you've read or seen the basics.
If you fall on steep glare ice you accelerate at something like 32 feet per second per second -- or something like that. My memory of physics is getting rusty.

But that means that quite quickly that one will be sliding so fast that attempts at self arrest will just pull your axe or ski pole out of your hands. It helps to practice so that your attempts at self arrest happen quickly -- like almost instantaneously.

There are a few things that are wise to learn and practice if you expect to do much winter hiking on icy sidehills.

Back when I spent many weekends each winter messing around on the slopes of Katahdin, our leader insisted that we carry ice axes, and know how to use them. I'm getting a bit rusty now. But luckily I don't do much winter climbing on Katahdin any more.

Weary

gravityman
03-31-2009, 00:12
Glissading is fun! But you don't want to do it without an ice axe, that's for sure. We taught ourselves. It's pretty obvious if you read a description of it and get out on a steep, safe place and give it a try.

On a side note, it always surprises me when I'm crossing a snow field how I feel completely comfortable until I'm about 1/2 way across, and then I realize I REALLY need to get my axe out. Something out being close to the edge that gives you a false sense of security. Think before you get in over your head.

Gravity

sarbar
03-31-2009, 16:05
Don't carry an ice ax unless you know how to use it. It can be very dangerous if used wrong.

Having said that....learn how to use one! It could well save your life some day. It will also help you build confidence and safety on snow/ice.

Self arresting is something easy in theory, but in practice you need your body reacting before your brain goes "Oh crap!". So do it over and over and over and over! Practice often as you have a good hill and snow around.

gravityman
03-31-2009, 17:15
For most hikers, the self belay (stick it in the snow and hold on to it each step) of the ice axe is enough to justify carrying it, even if you don't know how to self arrest. Chances are, with an ice axe used for self-belay you most likely won't need one for self arrest.

Of course you should learn how to do both, but self belay is almost more important than self arrest. And there is some technique to it (although it's not very complicated and almost intuitive) especially around the switchback...

Gravity

Tipi Walter
03-31-2009, 20:15
with a long handled straight claw hammer in a metal hammer hook on your belt. climb to the peak of a roof (12-12 to 8-12 is best) as you slide down roof, with one hand on the hammer head and other on handle you DRIVE it through the roof sheathing. practice makes perfect.
PS i repair roofs in the Tri-State Area 1-800-GOTLEAKS

BUNG ARRESTS
Can clenching butt cheeks hold a sliding backpacker onto a snow covered rock ledge? Very possibly. Here's the technique: While creeping about slowly, keep butt cheeks flared and ready for possible self-arrest. Upon sliding and falling, clamp down butt onto first available surface, and like a lamprey eel, stay attached until forward motion ceases. Clean out butt crack from both exterior detritus and interior shock-effluent, and start again.

Seasoned experts have been known to descend an entire icey mountain using just their butt suctions, and it's not unusual to see one of them bounce from one anchor point to the next with both hands and legs free.

THE BUNG ABSEIL
The bung abseil is not for beginners as oftimes they will attempt it with too much enthusiasm and it's not uncommon to see their sad trail: a few successful bounces and then a long skid mark followed by a trail of colon and long intestines. Just as a newb wouldn't pick a fight with Mike Tyson, so a beginner should never attempt bung abseiling.

The proper backpacker gear for bung abseiling is simple: open goretex chaps with front protective lexan cup. It's not uncommon to see expert butt abseilors standing around talking to their groupies and other girls while dressed in their ripstop chaps with their rosey cheeks exposed. Considered high fashion on the slopes of big mountains, etc.

GLUTEUS DEAD LIFT
Sometimes they even have contests amongst themselves to see how much weight they can lift using clenched butt cheeks alone. Called the Gluteus Dead-Lift, one Norweigan power clencher could dead lift over 437 pounds on a hovering squat. Such power clenchers, though, make poor backpacking bung abseilors as they tend to over clench and stop abruptly in mid-descent. One unfortunate butt body lifter had to be pried off a mountain in Spain by rescuers using mini-bowsaws and a blowtorch.

hoz
04-01-2009, 08:02
Read "Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills". Then go out on a minor slope with a good run out and practice. Do all the possible permutations including falling headdown backward with a pack.

It's an easy technique to learn.

PS. On an icy slope the axe isn't plunged directly in but gradually inserted in order to slow your descent, and if there is a cliff just below just kiss your "axe" goodbye.

warraghiyagey
04-01-2009, 08:09
Read "Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills". Then go out on a minor slope with a good run out and practice. Do all the possible permutations including falling headdown backward with a pack.


That's a good idea. . . you could also go out and jump over a 20 foot cliff and practice setting/splinting your broken legs and crawling back to a road. . .

fiddlehead
04-01-2009, 12:48
We learned at Stratton Mountain Ski area in '95 before our thru of the PCT in '96.
Was fun learning. The actual fall i had on whitney wasn't fun, but luckily I had practiced and stopped about 8' before a 20' drop.
Again, a few years later, i had a save in Washington in July. came up to a snow covered chute (small) that the trail went across, it was first thing early in the morning and very hard snow (almost ice) and yes, i slipped going across and had to self arrest again. That time, it was nasty rocks at the bottom and very scary again.

Not knowing how seems to be a source of good jokes from the cyber hikers.

Learn anyway. It could save you from lots of trouble.

I agree with whoever said that when traversing steep stuff, keep the ax in your up hill hand and sink it DEEP with each step. If you do fall, chances are you can slide your hand down and grab the ax to hold yourself. If it's not sunk deep, it'll just come out and then you need the self arrest skills.

We practiced at that ski slope by falling headfirst, feetfirst, on our backs and on our belly's and learning how to flip over and turn around also.

Usually you will be able to practice when you get out to the PCT when you first start hitting snow. BUt remember, there area so many different kinds of snow and some of them, the ax will just go thru like a hot knife thru butter (but usually that's not the kind that will give you a dangerous fall) It's the hard pack icy stuff that you hit early morning or when it's really cold out.

Good luck. and Have fun.

hoz
04-01-2009, 18:33
The actual fall i had on whitney wasn't fun, but luckily I had practiced and stopped about 8' before a 20' drop.

Back in 72 I took some of my "bud heads " to Whitney for a weekend. We were going up the hikers route from Lone Pine. Out of 8 only 2 of us made it to the top. My dog Shadowfax, made it to the summit ridge but gave out. One of the others took him back down for me.

After summiting we were bushed and decided to slide down the "Climbers Col" to the right of the 99 Switchbacks. Neither one of us had an ice axe, I had a 6" piton in my hand. It was late afternoon, the sun had been hitting the slope and the snow looked soft...so we just sat down and pushed off.

All went well, we lost elevation really fast and the quick infusion of O2 gave us new energy. When we reached the valley floor we started boulder hopping to get back on the trail when a Ranger came up and started thrashing us for "cutting the switchbacks".

He wouldn't listen to our explanations about glissading down the snow chute and told us we had a choice, climb back up to the ridge (99 switchbacks) or a $100.00 fine!

We started back up but quit after 3 switchbacks. We didn't see the Ranger after that, I guess he was off hassling other hikers.

SunnyWalker
04-01-2009, 22:30
I have self-arrested before without an ice axe. I used my finge tips/hands and toes while arching my body. It was all I had at the time-what I mean is I had slid past the ice axes that were all clumped together. Another climber had placed them down the slope and to the side from where I slipped. I slid about 50-75 feet begfore i was able to stop. Anyhew, I think an ice ax would be a necessity for PCT but not the entire trail of course. You can figure out when and where. If it was me I would pick it up via a maildrop when the time was ripe.

weary
04-02-2009, 10:50
A couple of the hikers who went through the Sierras at the time we did had to self-arrest.

I've never take a course or done any serious practice, but I've had to carry an ice axe on both the CDT and PCT and have ended up using the ice axe both when I fell and on a long butt slide down Forester Pass. I learned the basics out of the Mountaineers book. Mostly I just use the axe to stay stable so I don't fall and don't need to self-arrest. If I'm on a steep slope, I dig the point in with every step. Most of the time that works, but it's slow. My falls were short ones where I got careless because it wasn't that far down. Twice the point held and I stopped - once it didn't.
I once spent a half hour or so in the early 1970's practicing self arrest with the guy who lead many winter hikes on Katahdin. But the only time I used an ice axe in an emergency was on the Saddle trail on Katahdin. I was at the tail end of a 12 member climb. The first 11 managed to get to the top of the ridge with no trouble. But they had pushed away all the snow, so that the 12th (me) was left to climb on glare ice.

I stabilized my self and spent a moment or two pondering the situation. Finally I inched down to a protruding rock, and gradually used the axe to cut steps in the ice to the top.

It wasn't self arrest. But I was glad I had an axe with me and was wearing crampons. Once on the tableland we had an easy walk to the summit.

I never really became skilled in winter technical climbing. But quite a few technical mountain groups would drag me along in hopes I would do a story for the newspaper I worked for.

Most reporters on such trips wrote of their harrowing adventures. I tended to emphasize how easy and fun winter climbing really was.

So I didn't win any journalism prizes. But I did help give quite a few people the courage to enjoy the winter hills. As near as I could tell, none of them died as a result.

Weary

clured
04-06-2009, 13:20
I knew how to do it "intellectually" (youtube), but had never actually practiced it when I had to do it. I was coming down off a high pass in the Pyrenees, and I had already made it safely down the really steep, nasty right below the col, and I was working my way down towards a refuge. Most of the snow was gone at that point, so I took off my crampons and started high tailing it because it was starting to rain. Came to a little chute of snow, decided that it wasn't worth the bother of strapping on the crampons for 20 feet of snow walking, and just charged across it, slipped, and went down about 100 feet before I could get my axe in. I was shaken up, although in retrospect I think it would have been fine regardless.

The second time was scarier. I climbed up the wrong side of a ridgeline on the way up to the top of Le Taillon, a 3000m'er in the Pyrenees, and slipped on a big snowslope that fed off into god knows where. But, I stopped myself faster that time, too.

buff_jeff
04-06-2009, 19:07
Thanks for the advice, everyone. Hopefully I'll be out there in 2010!

Jester2000
04-06-2009, 19:22
From what I hear of PCT'ers, an ice axe generally isn't a necessity.

. . .right up until you need it.

Learned how to use an ice axe at a ski slope. Really learned how much I liked having it at Mather Pass.

If nothing else, it's great for photos . . .

TwoForty
04-06-2009, 20:35
. . .right up until you need it.

Learned how to use an ice axe at a ski slope. Really learned how much I liked having it at Mather Pass.

If nothing else, it's great for photos . . .

Digs a mean cathole, too.

I watched a video on youtube, read Freedom Of The Hills, and went out and got the hang of it the first time I really used my axe. It's really easy, just roll towards the head. Now, it gets tougher when you throw in variables, like ice, a backpack, or falling head first. Not to mention not taking the adze to your face.