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didymus128
04-03-2009, 23:06
Hey guys, does anyone know what the fine is for being caught camping between shelters and not at an established campsite? Also, for camping outside a shelter if it's not full. (Assuming you are caught) No, i don't need to hear from those of you who are already thinking of something self righteous to say. :) Just if you can answer my question.

sliderule
04-03-2009, 23:48
The fine is at the discretion of a federal judge or magistrate. I understand that $150 (per person) is typical for a first offense.

Dogwood
04-04-2009, 00:14
Depends on where you are referring to. Plenty of places, in fact most of the AT, allows camping between AT shelters. Camping between AT shelters is only not allowed in a few places - GSMNP, The Whites, maybe SNP(don't remember about SNP though), some private lands where the landowners so graciously allowed the AT path to cross their property, etc. A few other places that some others here can name.

didymus128
04-04-2009, 00:16
Depends on where you are referring to. Plenty of places, in fact most of the AT, allows camping between AT shelters. Camping between AT shelters is only not allowed in a few places - GSMNP, The Whites, maybe SNP(don't remember about SNP though), some private lands where the landowners so graciously allowed the AT path to cross their property, etc. A few other places that some others here can name.

thanks but i was referring to inside GSMNP, i didn't realize this was true for SNP though, might not be

Dogwood
04-04-2009, 00:18
And maybe you don't want to hear it, but the no camping designation is often for very good reasons. Remember, what one does affects what others can do after them.

Bearpaw
04-04-2009, 00:18
thanks but i was referring to inside GSMNP, i didn't realize this was true for SNP though, might not be

You don't have to stay at shelters in the Shenandoahs.

didymus128
04-04-2009, 00:21
more than anything i'm just greatful i didn't get busted before, because i did not know this was a law, thought it was just a suggestion, and i have done a lot of stealth in the smokies. also have many friends who do it, some because their first trips were with me, and i wanted to know if anyone had info on the fines/penalty so i can let them know about it.

sliderule
04-04-2009, 00:24
Depends on where you are referring to. Plenty of places, in fact most of the AT, allows camping between AT shelters.

Does the fact that the query was posted in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park section of the forum not provide any insight whatsoever as to location?

Dogwood
04-04-2009, 00:25
OK. I also remember hearing the $150 for first time offenders at GSMNP is typical. I've heard of a higher fine levied on one ocassion for this offense though. Call up GSMNP. The camping outside adjacent to GSMNP shelters is probably not going to land you a fine though.

didymus128
04-04-2009, 00:26
Does the fact that the query was posted in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park section of the forum not provide any insight whatsoever as to location?

i mean i wasn't gonna say anything...just assume that like the rest of us he simply clicked "today's posts"

Dogwood
04-04-2009, 00:27
It would have Sliderule, if I had noticed that.

Wise Old Owl
04-04-2009, 00:27
Did it occur to anyone that if you receive a fine for "Stealth" Camping quite possibly you are doing it ALL wrong?:eek:

Best joke ever from a Comedian in front of a large group of Marines -

"You know that Camo just isn't working for you guys, I can still see you!"

didymus128
04-04-2009, 00:29
Did it occur to anyone that if you receive a fine for "Stealth" Camping quite possibly you are doing it ALL wrong?:eek:

Best joke ever from a Comedian in front of a large group of Marines -

"You know that Camo just isn't working for you guys, I can still see you!"

agreed, but i feel like in some circles "stealth" camping has simply become the chosen vernacular for "camping where i'm not supposed to" rather than, "camping where no one can see me."

sliderule
04-04-2009, 00:41
The camping outside adjacent to GSMNP shelters is probably not going to land you a fine though.

Camping inside the shelter will land you a fine is you don't have a valid permit. Outside won't be any different.

Dogwood
04-04-2009, 00:52
Agreed Sliderule, but I assumed he would have a permit to camp inside the shelter and just wants to camp outside instead. I'm assuming he does have a hiking permit, but chooses to not stay at or in the shelter. If he decides on thru-hiking GSMNP without any permit I think that's a bit different than stealthing.

sliderule
04-04-2009, 01:04
Speculating on selective enforcement is probably a losing proposition. The rules are clear. Except for campsite 113, the only hikers who are allowed to tent camp on the AT are properly permitted thru hikers. And they can tent only in the immediate vicinity of a shelter if that shelter is filled to capacity.

Dogwood
04-04-2009, 01:17
Good enough for me Sliderule. That sounds like the ranger quoting the rules as he or she is writing the summons.

Vibe
04-04-2009, 06:20
Hiking permit? This is the first I've ever seen of THAT requirement anywhere. (I don't get out to the AT area, just picked this thread up on a "Todays Posts" click) But STILL! Why would anyone need a HIKING PERMIT??

Wise Old Owl
04-04-2009, 07:32
Doesn't make much sense....

Egads
04-04-2009, 07:34
Hiking permit? This is the first I've ever seen of THAT requirement anywhere. (I don't get out to the AT area, just picked this thread up on a "Todays Posts" click) But STILL! Why would anyone need a HIKING PERMIT??

Why would anyone need a _________________ (fill in blank). Cause big G says so.

Bootstrap
04-04-2009, 07:47
Best joke ever from a Comedian in front of a large group of Marines -

"You know that Camo just isn't working for you guys, I can still see you!"

But he was only saying that to the ones he could actually see ....

Jonathan

TJ aka Teej
04-04-2009, 08:22
agreed, but i feel like in some circles "stealth" camping has simply become the chosen vernacular for "camping where i'm not supposed to" rather than, "camping where no one can see me."
It once meant camping in a manner so no one would know you had been there.

papa john
04-04-2009, 08:52
I found this reference:


Backpackers and hikers are subject to all Backcountry Rules and Regulations. Failure to abide by park regulations may subject you to a fine under Title 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Maximum fine for each violation is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.

BitBucket
04-04-2009, 09:35
In GSMNP, Backpackers and hikers are subject to all Backcountry Rules and Regulations. Failure to abide by park regulations may subject you to a fine under Title 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Maximum fine for each violation is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.

Here's a list of the Backcountry Rules/Regulations direct from the web site:

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm


Backpackers and hikers are subject to all Backcountry Rules and Regulations. Failure to abide by park regulations may subject you to a fine under Title 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Maximum fine for each violation is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.

1. You must possess a backcountry permit while camping in the backcountry.

2. Camping is permitted only at designated sites and shelters.

3. Use of reserved sites and shelters must be confirmed through the Backcountry Reservation Office.

4. You may stay up to three consecutive nights at a site. You may not stay two nights in a row at a shelter.

5. Maximum camping party size is eight persons.

6. Open fires are prohibited except at designated sites. Use only wood that is dead and on the ground. Use only established fire rings.

7. The use of tents at shelters is prohibited.

8. Food storage: When not being consumed or transported, all food and trash must be suspended at least 10 feet off the ground and four feet from the nearest limb or trunk, or shall be stored as otherwise designated.

9. Toilet use must be at least 100 feet from a campsite or water source and out of sight of the trail. Human feces must be buried in a six-inch-deep hole.

10. All trash must be carried out.

11. All plants, wildlife, and natural and historic features are protected by law. Do not carve, deface, or cut any trees or shrubs.

12. Polluting park waters is prohibited. Do not wash dishes or bathe with soap in a stream.

13. Pets, motorized vehicles, and bicycles are not permitted in the backcountry.

Wise Old Owl
04-04-2009, 10:51
Thats a good start, now how many folk who are backpackers ever got an idiot $500-$5000 dollar fine?


This is an example of a Smoky Mountain Idiot:
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parknews/ginseng-poacher-jail.htm



My point is that if you are doing most of the stuff right, you will be left alone. If you are steath camping and not using fires, and you are way off the trail, and you leave no trace. So be it. Didymus & Tj aka Teej you are both right. I don't want to be found or seen.

sliderule
04-04-2009, 11:03
Thats a good start, now how many folk who are backpackers ever got an idiot $500-$5000 dollar fine?

In 35 years of hiking in the Smokies, I have had my permit checked exactly once. That was while standing at the Newfound Gap trailhead waiting on a vehicle shuttle to be completed. Ranger drove by, stopped and summoned me to his vehicle. When I produced the permit, he asked if I had reservations. When I invited his attention to my reservation confirmation number, he stated that he never heard of such a thing!!!

Wise Old Owl
04-04-2009, 14:34
Honest I understand the need to discuss these things but I have only seen rangers at trail heads or a 1/4 mile in, never "On the trail" So if you have your permit - Great.

Kathfishes
04-04-2009, 17:25
My first trip to SNP I asked that question. Very nice ranger explained it helps to know how many are using backcountry areas, and the areas of impact. and in an emergency have an idea of how many hikers may be in a "danger zone". he permits are required only for those hiking/camping in backcountry..not for day hikers or those at the park campgrounds
Kathfishes

nufsaid
04-04-2009, 17:47
Why would anyone need a _________________ (fill in blank). Cause big G says so.

Now its big O.