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paradoxb3
04-06-2009, 19:51
Apparently there has been alot of bear activity on and north of Blood Mountain. I just got back today from a hike from hightower gap to neels, and not only did I hear stories and read journal entries of a problem bear raiding food at the shelter, last night I and 3 others were unlucky enough to experience it first-hand!

A large black bear came to the shelter around dusk. One hiker tried to scare it away by banging pots and pans but it didn't give us a second thought. It proceeded to climb up into the trees, breaking branches and grasping at ropes until it got our food bags. It left with the bounty, but later returned to the buffet around 11pm, climbed another tree and got the remainder of the food while we lay helpless in the shelter, laughing.... pissed off quite a bit... but laughing.

Notices at Mountain Crossings state that the area from Neels to Whitley Gap shelter are CLOSED to camping due to bear activity. You'll have to keep going to Low Gap shelter.

(side note -- I found my shredded food bags this morning, and recovered my cookpot and alky stove)

Lone Wolf
04-06-2009, 19:52
shoulda slept with your food

paradoxb3
04-06-2009, 19:54
my food and I are just friends

EverydayJourneyman
04-06-2009, 19:58
shoulda slept with your food

Are you saying that because he would have been eaten or the best way to protect your food is to keep it with you because animals are afraid of humans?

CrumbSnatcher
04-06-2009, 20:01
my food and I are just friends
funny s*** :D

paradoxb3
04-06-2009, 20:02
Are you saying that because he would have been eaten or the best way to protect your food is to keep it with you because animals are afraid of humans?

i think its actually just an involuntary response at this point... :rolleyes:

j/k LW, i know your feelings on shelters, food, the kennebec debate, etc... :D just passing the word along.

Bulldawg
04-06-2009, 20:33
The Blood Mountain bears have been a problem for quite a while now. A good reason to make the short hike on down to the hostel and get a shower and two warm meals!

Slimer
04-06-2009, 20:38
Kill the bears and eliminate the problem.
Kill 'em all....

vamelungeon
04-06-2009, 20:41
Let's organize a bear hunt so there will be plenty of bear meat for Trail Days. Bear BBQ, anyone?

Dances with Mice
04-06-2009, 20:44
shoulda slept with your foodIf you sleep with your food at the Blood Mtn Shelter then the skunks will get it.

EverydayJourneyman
04-06-2009, 20:45
I can't let my mum read this thread.

I was planning on keeping my food in my tent (sealed up of course) or I would use a bear container if available. I've slept with my food in Washington State without issue.

I guess I'm going to get eaten on the AT.

Slo-go'en
04-06-2009, 20:46
Let's organize a bear hunt so there will be plenty of bear meat for Trail Days. Bear BBQ, anyone?

That would be ironic, hikers eating a bear which got fat from eating hiker food:rolleyes:

vamelungeon
04-06-2009, 20:50
That would be ironic, hikers eating a bear which got fat from eating hiker food:rolleyes:
Yes, it would. Life's a circle and all that stuff...

Kanati
04-06-2009, 21:00
That would be ironic, hikers eating a bear which got fat from eating hiker food:rolleyes:

Hikers are....smarter than the average bear.....

Another good reason to carry a slingshot. Blister his "bare" butt when he starts up the tree.

:banana

Johnny Thunder
04-06-2009, 21:02
Every time I see Tricks he says something about selling a bear's galbladder down in Chinatown. Thousands of yen.

vamelungeon
04-06-2009, 21:04
Hikers are....smarter than the average bear.....

Another good reason to carry a slingshot. Blister his "bare" butt when he starts up the tree.

:banana
yep, make bears hate human contact! It's doing the bear a favor, really and truly.

wrongway_08
04-06-2009, 21:11
Bears are like sharks... punch them in the nose and they run away.

Dances with Mice
04-06-2009, 21:16
I guess I'm going to get eaten on the AT.No you won't.

Bears always drag hikers off the Trail before eating them.

Lone Wolf
04-06-2009, 21:42
Every time I see Tricks he says something about selling a bear's galbladder down in Chinatown. Thousands of yen.
yen is japanese money

ed bell
04-06-2009, 21:45
No you won't.

Bears always drag hikers off the Trail before eating them.I don't know which response was better, that one, or "and his hair was perfect."

Johnny Thunder
04-06-2009, 21:47
yen is japanese money

I'm aware.

Monkeyboy
04-06-2009, 22:18
Just slather your hiking partner with bacon grease.........

Bears won't bother you then.

Scrapes
04-06-2009, 22:18
I can hear it now, hurrumph, this bear tastes like Ramen

Jan LiteShoe
04-06-2009, 22:23
Hikers are....smarter than the average bear.....

Another good reason to carry a slingshot. Blister his "bare" butt when he starts up the tree.

:banana

Not to drift the thread, but slingshots are interesting. Got a favorite?

Seems like there's always bear activity on North Georgia this time of year. Bears waking up down south + lots of hikers, many of whom are not as careful as they might be later (not saying that was your case Paradox, you obviously got an educated bear) = food incidents.

Lugnut
04-06-2009, 23:08
yen is japanese money


You're quick tonight! :D

paradoxb3
04-07-2009, 00:12
(not saying that was your case Paradox, you obviously got an educated bear)

no problem jan, i'll admit it may have been a little of both. we all *thought* our food was safe from bears that night. we had also never seen what all a full grown black bear was capable of until then either. i may choose my food-hanging locations a bit more wisely from now on.

the main reason i wanted to bring this to the attention of anyone possibly heading to blood mountain is the bear was not afraid a bit of humans, and certainly wasnt afraid to come within 20 or so feet of the shelter entrance on its second visit. it also spent some time there sorting through what it wanted before leaving. i would fear before too long it might get bold and start poking around *inside* the shelter.

Dances with Mice
04-07-2009, 05:25
I was up there on the 29th and spent an hour or two on the summit. As you approach the AT on either trail from Winfield Scott (Jarrard Gap and Slaughter Creek) there were signs posted warning about a food stealing bear in the area. The signs were at the Wilderness Area boundaries if i remember right.

I didn't read the shelter register but I saw there was one. Is the bear activity is noted in there?

CowHead
04-07-2009, 06:55
Bears are like sharks... punch them in the nose and they run away.
Ok there is two things I wouldn't want to be that close to and be able to punch in the nose 1 a bear and 2 a shark

EverydayJourneyman
04-07-2009, 07:13
Is there anyone here who's thru-hiked and didn't use a bear bag?

saimyoji
04-07-2009, 07:16
Bears are like sharks... punch them in the nose and they run away.

you ever try to punch someone underwater? you aren't gonna hurt a shark that way.

daddytwosticks
04-07-2009, 07:36
Two questions (or points)...I hope there was/is adequate warnings in the shelter register warning other hikers and are there bear cables at the Blood Mtn shelter? :)

Blue Jay
04-07-2009, 08:06
Keep your food under your bed and stay under there with it. Also avoid all public places as there are gun men everywhere. How did American become so afraid of everything?

Pedaling Fool
04-07-2009, 08:15
Is there anyone here who's thru-hiked and didn't use a bear bag?
There's a bunch of us that sleep with food in our tents, it's a controversial topic to say the least -- just watch.

All you food hanging weenies are sheeple.

EverydayJourneyman
04-07-2009, 08:26
There's a bunch of us that sleep with food in our tents, it's a controversial topic to say the least -- just watch.

All you food hanging weenies are sheeple.

I just feel like an idiot (moreso than normal) because it never occured to me to get a bear bag. I figured I would sleep with it or use a bear container if one was around.

Pedaling Fool
04-07-2009, 08:29
I only use simple nylon sacs for my food. Those bear containers are too bulky and they don't carry enough food for me, since I don't like to go to town every 3-5 days.

cravj1988
04-07-2009, 09:28
There are no food-hoist cables on Blood Mt. I was there Sat. night and saw the evidence early in the morning. I woke up early to see the sunrise, and sure enough the bear got all their food. Not mine, and an Israli Thruhiker who slept with his food in the shelter. I cowboy'd in a stealthy spot just below the ridge. Bears are cool, saw 9 on my thru in 2007, never had a problem.

Sidewinder
04-07-2009, 09:30
Every time I see Tricks he says something about selling a bear's galbladder down in Chinatown. Thousands of yen.

I sold my gallbladder so I could pay for my hike, it was giving me problems anyway :D

DavidNH
04-07-2009, 09:35
It is kind of interesting. In GA and NC most every one seems to be scared of or at least a bit nervous about bare encounters. By the time you get up to Northern New England, Bears no longer phase anyone, they are no longer a topic of conversation, and people are using the shelter mouse hands or using a bear box if there is one.

Which actually brings up a question.. why doesn't every shelter in GA and NC (and TN and VA) simply have a big metal bear box for hiker food? Then no one would have to fuss with food hanging or pulleys and there would be no need for bear warnings. I don't recall seeing a bear box till New Jersey. Why not have them at every shelter? The bears could never get into them, could they?

David

EverydayJourneyman
04-07-2009, 09:37
I've been spoiled out West, I assumed there would be a fair amount of bear boxes (I called them containers, oops) on the AT.

bigmac_in
04-07-2009, 10:16
It is kind of interesting. In GA and NC most every one seems to be scared of or at least a bit nervous about bare encounters. By the time you get up to Northern New England, Bears no longer phase anyone, they are no longer a topic of conversation, and people are using the shelter mouse hands or using a bear box if there is one.

Which actually brings up a question.. why doesn't every shelter in GA and NC (and TN and VA) simply have a big metal bear box for hiker food? Then no one would have to fuss with food hanging or pulleys and there would be no need for bear warnings. I don't recall seeing a bear box till New Jersey. Why not have them at every shelter? The bears could never get into them, could they?

David

There definitely should NOT be bear boxes at every shelter. Then the bears might find me at my tent. As long as there are large numbers of people using shelters and hanging all their food out for the bears, I don't have to worry about them. :D

berninbush
04-07-2009, 10:24
All joking aside... I'm afraid that bear is not long for this world. If he has already become that bold and unafraid of humans, it's only a matter of time before the park rangers have to put him down. Once they lose that inhibition, there's no going back. As someone else said, it won't be long before he's crawling into the shelters to forage in people's packs.

Yogi would have been summarily executed for his crimes in real life. Sad but true.

Roots
04-07-2009, 11:16
With the many upon many people that go through the shelter areas throughout March and April, the bear have learned what is in those bags hanging up in the trees. I met a few last week that lost their food. I slept with mine and didn't go hungry.

freedompirate01
04-07-2009, 11:31
Has anyone ever consider some firecrackers? Maybe the ones that are stringed up together and really loud?

McKeever
04-07-2009, 12:11
Is there anyone here who's thru-hiked and didn't use a bear bag?

Has anyone spent the $50 for the http://www.ursack.com/ ?

As posted here, regular bear bags can be defeated. I usually sleep w/food and to bear bag if really suspicious, but in either case I'm ready to pack up camp and move on and night hike if the bear comes thru.

Bears are hunted with dogs in southern states so they are mostly sensitized to human presence and will usually flee until fed once. It's like Roger the Ranger at Fontana said "a fed bear is a dead bear" because once it gets a food bag it's imprinted from then on and has to be relocated or killed because it's never going to quit.

It's sad to hear that the bear got the food bag once, then shameful to hear that later on in the same night was allowed to get another bag because the camp was not broken down and moved after the first theft (if I understood the first post correctly).

I usually just sleep with my food but have had to get up several times and move camp in the middle of the night because the bear just is not going to leave.

mtnkngxt
04-07-2009, 12:26
So why after the 1st bag did you not move or rerig the bags to a different hanging setup? Its not the bears fault, and its only a matter of time before the AT corridor goes to mandatory Food Canisters.

DAJA
04-07-2009, 12:36
So why after the 1st bag did you not move or rerig the bags to a different hanging setup? Its not the bears fault, and its only a matter of time before the AT corridor goes to mandatory Food Canisters.

Exactly... Once the bear made off with the first round, all remaining food should have been resecured using another method. And for those of you who sleep with your food, just remember, your food bag your using as a pillow, may someday be the easiest meal available...

DAJA
04-07-2009, 12:38
Just out of curiousity what method was being used? My method of choice is the PCT method and have never had problems with wildlife walking away with my food...

kanga
04-07-2009, 12:40
you ever try to punch someone underwater? you aren't gonna hurt a shark that way.

but lara croft did it! :confused:

kanga
04-07-2009, 12:42
All joking aside... I'm afraid that bear is not long for this world. If he has already become that bold and unafraid of humans, it's only a matter of time before the park rangers have to put him down. Once they lose that inhibition, there's no going back. As someone else said, it won't be long before he's crawling into the shelters to forage in people's packs.

Yogi would have been summarily executed for his crimes in real life. Sad but true.


not true. they've been trained that it's easy food for them. they can also be trained that it's painful food.

nufsaid
04-07-2009, 12:48
It is kind of interesting. In GA and NC most every one seems to be scared of or at least a bit nervous about bare encounters.
David


Please don't start a conversation about hike nekkid day.

catfishrivers
04-07-2009, 13:00
not true. they've been trained that it's easy food for them. they can also be trained that it's painful food.

or they can be trained to learn that the foodbags give them DIARRHEA. Ex-Lax Brownies are going in my decoy food bag! I just better make sure I remember which bag is my decoy bag!



(for the record, j/k)

catfishrivers
04-07-2009, 13:02
but it would help answer that famous, age old questions about bears and just where they poop in the woods...

:) :eek:

darkage
04-07-2009, 13:17
but it would help answer that famous, age old questions about bears and just where they poop in the woods...

:) :eek:

Thats already been answered on youtube ... just search bear sh** woods ..

Also a good reason to FILTER water ... you'll see-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPGFsgKDm_U :welcome

gaga
04-07-2009, 13:19
just play Frisbee with the bear ,that will tire him good :D AT woods hole shelter

bloodmountainman
04-07-2009, 14:10
Leave that bear alone!!!! We have an understanding...... he brings me groceries...... I don't hunt him and his kin during the fall.

warraghiyagey
04-07-2009, 14:21
Leave that bear alone!!!! We have an understanding...... he brings me groceries...... I don't hunt him and his kin during the fall.
Righteous. . .:sun

JDCool1
04-07-2009, 14:52
A hungry bear cannot be held a bay by a sleeping hiker. Check out the bear attacks in Montana and California.

weary
04-07-2009, 15:46
All joking aside... I'm afraid that bear is not long for this world. If he has already become that bold and unafraid of humans, it's only a matter of time before the park rangers have to put him down. ......
I'm not sure why park rangers "have" to do anything. But I understand that is the usual practice. However, we shouldn't shy away from the truth. "Putting down" is a pleasant way to think about what happens. Rangers, in fact, kill the bear, using a gun that blows a hole in the bear. Sometimes the first shot doesn't kill the bear. If so, the bear sneaks away to die alone and in pain. If the bear is lucky the ranger will track it down and kill it with a second shot.

If the bear being "put down" is a female, she most likely will leave behind a cub or two, which will slowly starve to death without their mother.

Weary

Heater
04-07-2009, 15:56
Hikers are....smarter than the average bear.....
:banana

Yeah. Just don't carry your food in a pic-a-nic basket
and you should be OK.

jigsaw
04-07-2009, 16:55
i have some bear problems here at my house getting into my compost.i just gave him a few rounds from a paint ball gun havent seen him since.if he comes back he's gonna get the 12 gauge

mateozzz
04-07-2009, 20:11
Any local volunteers to go camp a few nights there with a brick of firecrackers and a paint ball gun filled with pepper spray balls? I think that would be enough to "retrain" the bear to stay away. Maybe a couple of hounds to chase him down the trail a ways.

ChinMusic
04-07-2009, 20:19
Any local volunteers to go camp a few nights there with a brick of firecrackers and a paint ball gun filled with pepper spray balls? I think that would be enough to "retrain" the bear to stay away. Maybe a couple of hounds to chase him down the trail a ways.
I doubt the bear would come up there if hounds were there.

The other technique sounds interesting.

Panzer1
04-07-2009, 20:28
shoulda slept with your food

If I was sleeping with food in my tent and knew there was a bear walking around outside, I don't think I would be able to sleep.

Panzer

kettish
04-07-2009, 20:46
They're using the Korelian Bear Dogs up in Alaska with the grizzlies-something about the bears drives those dogs wild, and something about the dogs drives the bears away! They also use firecrackers if I recall as well as airhorns and something else that I misremember. So definitely agree with mateozz!

take-a-knee
04-07-2009, 21:18
They're using the Korelian Bear Dogs up in Alaska with the grizzlies-something about the bears drives those dogs wild, and something about the dogs drives the bears away! They also use firecrackers if I recall as well as airhorns and something else that I misremember. So definitely agree with mateozz!

I believe most Alaskans prefer Marlin Guide Guns:

http://www.gunblast.com/Marlin-1895SBL.htm

Alaskanhkr23
04-07-2009, 21:24
Yeah those are black bears were i lived we had to worry about grizzlies-hense the 460 S&W

Alaskanhkr23
04-07-2009, 21:29
The dogs dont do much if anything,i anchorage has grizzlies walk through town dragging full grown bull moose and im talking through the city

Alaskanhkr23
04-07-2009, 21:30
anything big-marlins are good,but i just use a 460

Alaskanhkr23
04-07-2009, 21:31
Pepper balls is a great Idea-loud noises arent working _hitting pots and pans- pepper balls work great

ryanwheeler007
04-07-2009, 22:36
I'll camp up there for three nights... all the people that are deathly concerned about the fate of said bear can donate a paintball gun with pepper rounds... think anyone will take me up? Not likely... People love to talk about how sad things are but they aren't willing to DO anything about it. (Note: I don't actually want to do this, but I would if someone got me one : )

Pokey2006
04-07-2009, 22:46
I'll camp up there for three nights... all the people that are deathly concerned about the fate of said bear can donate a paintball gun with pepper rounds... think anyone will take me up? Not likely... People love to talk about how sad things are but they aren't willing to DO anything about it. (Note: I don't actually want to do this, but I would if someone got me one : )

Heck I'd do it, too, if someone got me the supplies. It sounds like a good idea. However, I would be curious about what local wildlife officials would have to say about it, and whether it would actually be legal to pull such a stunt.

I do worry about this situation, because it just seems like there's no happy ending to it. I'm still hoping no one gets hurt.

Reid
04-07-2009, 23:16
Bears are the least of my worries. If a snake ever steals my food then it's war.

stranger
04-08-2009, 00:34
Learn to hang your food with the PCT Method, and choose your branch carefully. The branch needs to be strong enough to resist a bear trying to eat through it or snap it, while not so strong that the bear can walk on it - it can be tricky!

The more important question is probably "what did you sleep in that shelter in the first place"!

Pokey2006
04-08-2009, 01:34
Learn to hang your food with the PCT Method, and choose your branch carefully. The branch needs to be strong enough to resist a bear trying to eat through it or snap it, while not so strong that the bear can walk on it - it can be tricky!

The more important question is probably "what did you sleep in that shelter in the first place"!

It would be great if everyone could hang their food properly, or otherwise keep it away from the bears and other wildlife. Problem is, it's already too late for this bear. The damage has been done. And with the sheer numbers of people on the AT in the south at this time of year, I doubt any amount of education on the subject is going to matter -- it only takes one or two dummies to ruin it. I think perhaps it's time for bear boxes on this heavily-used stretch of trail.

zoidfu
04-08-2009, 02:37
The dogs dont do much if anything,i anchorage has grizzlies walk through town dragging full grown bull moose and im talking through the city

That's cool:cool:

Dances with Mice
04-08-2009, 06:20
Hikers used to complain about the mice and rats at Blood Mtn Shelter.

So we installed a mice and rat deterrent.

Some people call them "striped skunk". Then they started complaining about the skunks that came through the shelter each night looking for mice and rats.

So we installed a skunk deterrent.

Some people call it "black bear". Now they're complaining about the bear.

But notice how nobody's complaining about the mice, rats or skunks?

I'd say the situation is improving.

rickb
04-08-2009, 06:46
I'm not sure why park rangers "have" to do anything. But I understand that is the usual practice.

Good post Weary.

I am not sure why park rangers would have to shoot the bear either.

It is not critical to national security that the Blood Mountain Shelter area be kept open to camping.

If the authorities conclude that neither the bear or hikers will modify their behavior so as to coexist, why not ban camping in the area first?

It need not "already be too late" for the bear.

Egads
04-08-2009, 07:13
Does anyone else recall a few posts about a marauding bear at Slaughter / Blood last year? This may be the same one or offspring.

bloodmountainman
04-08-2009, 07:21
Does anyone else recall a few posts about a marauding bear at Slaughter / Blood last year? This may be the same one or offspring.
I do. This seems to happen every year on that hill. The bears have been holed up all winter and when thru-hiking season gets going, it's a dinner bell for the bears.
We had a problem three legged bear who terrorized campers at DeSoto Falls campground ( 3 miles south of Neel Gap ) That bear was captured and re-located numerous times. It always managed to re-appear back at the campground. DNR did what had to be done......the poor bear only knew where an easy food supply was located.

Pedaling Fool
04-08-2009, 08:18
I've seen a lot of people hang food and know they are doing it in a way that makes it easy for a bear to get, but if they were to use the PCT method (whatever that is) how would it prevent a bear getting the food if he chews through the line.

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/17178/

From the article:

"The bear has allegedly learned how to chew through a rope to make a suspended pack fall to the ground. Hikers have tried shouting and banging on things to scare the bear away, but according to the reports, the animal just glances at them and then goes back to chowing down on the stolen food."

Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 08:21
sleeping with your food is the best method

DAJA
04-08-2009, 08:28
The PCT method is a fairly fool proof method, as it does not require any tension lines or ropes tied around trees. As others have said, it takes some experience and effort to find the right branch. (strong enough to prevent the bear from breaking it, but not so strong as to support the bear if he chooses to climb up and recover the bag from above.)

Nothing is 100%, but this is the easiest and so far most secure way I've found to secure my food.

This link gives a fairly good description of the PCT method:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html

berninbush
04-08-2009, 08:55
I'll camp up there for three nights... all the people that are deathly concerned about the fate of said bear can donate a paintball gun with pepper rounds...

How much does one cost? :-? Can you actually buy "pepper rounds"?

Pedaling Fool
04-08-2009, 09:45
I now understand the PCT method and I've never seen anyone use it on the AT. It would be interesting to go to that section of the AT and see what this bear/bears do when confronted with this technique of food hanging. I can see a way the bear can defeat this technique, but it would probably take a while (learning curve).

FWIW, Yes there are trees all around, but it can be very difficult (at times) to find a proper tree in some spots of the AT, with a limb that is not too big, but not too small and 15-20 feet off the ground. A lot of areas are croweded with roaderdendron(sp?) or pine trees which are tall with branches way up near the top. That is why a lot of hanging food bags look like those speed-bags that boxers punch.

I'll stick with keeping my food with me in my tent.

Pedaling Fool
04-08-2009, 09:56
I don't know what method this is called, but it's pretty elaborate (way too much for me) http://www.wildpaddle.com/better-bear-bag

Glebbber
04-08-2009, 10:57
Has no one tried throwing rocks at the bear(s)? that always seems to work for me. I like softball sized ones.

Egads
04-08-2009, 12:14
Someone go Tase it's a$$

Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 13:00
i've never seen so much fear, paranoia and BS over a bear or two :rolleyes:

darkage
04-08-2009, 13:29
i've never seen so much fear, paranoia and BS over a bear or two :rolleyes:

Exactly.

traildust
04-08-2009, 14:03
Is there any update from the NFS on the current situation or is this section still closed for overnights?

Reid
04-08-2009, 17:09
Wasn't there a "suicide bear" a few years back in the smokies around late spring?? He would climb the trees and jump out to get the food and when they found him he was dead and devoid of hair from hitting the ground so many times. Is it possible for bears to get rabies? I'm sure it is. Now that would be a serious threat and I spect we'd have to hem em' up against a tree with some steel.

phillycheze
04-08-2009, 18:07
rotate watch if u can. if the bear goes for your stuff, whoop its ass. i don't care what or who it is, a swinging stick to the face really hurts. a shelter full of hikers better be able to defeat a bear... or get it to run off... also, did yall have a fire going?

and the darwin award goes to the people who just watched and did nothing. bravo.

max patch
04-08-2009, 18:08
is this section still closed for overnights?

yes

ChinMusic
04-08-2009, 18:12
and the darwin award goes to the people who just watched and did nothing. bravo.
Need to rethink that one........:D

bloodmountainman
04-08-2009, 18:17
rotate watch if u can. if the bear goes for your stuff, whoop its ass. i don't care what or who it is, a swinging stick to the face really hurts. a shelter full of hikers better be able to defeat a bear... or get it to run off... also, did yall have a fire going?

and the darwin award goes to the people who just watched and did nothing. bravo.
There is and has been a fire ban on Blood Mt

leprechaun
04-08-2009, 18:38
How much does one cost? :-? Can you actually buy "pepper rounds"?

paintball guns range from $30 - $1500. To get one to shoot at a high enough velocity for the bear to notice you would have to get one that can run off high pressure nitrogen , such guns (or as paintballers like to call them, "markers") start around $200. the tanks for the HPA themselves start around $50 and work up to $200. A case of 2000 paintballs that could stand to be shot at a high enough velocity to hurt a bear would be like $60+, or they make solid rubber target rounds for much more. I've never heard of pepper filled paintballs, but I quit playing 3 years ago. Having played the game on a semi-pro team I can tell you there is no market for pepper paint, actually could see that getting banned fast like they did to blood colored paint or oil based paint (paintballs now are made form biodegradable water based paint). But, the normal paint tastes absolutely horrible, and hurts bad when it gets in your eyes (personal experience). Here's the good news. The fastest markers shoot 40+ balls PER SECOND (although the feeder system for such speeds are also expensive). getting hit more than once hurts even at the tournament standard of 280 feet per second, and can draw blood in humans. you could easily ramp up the velocity of the paintballs to 400 feet per second (after that the paint starts breaking in the barrel). Find a local paintball field and I'm sure there would be more than a few volunteers with the experience to shoot a bear. :D

Dances with Mice
04-08-2009, 19:05
if the bear goes for your stuff, whoop its ass. i don't care what or who it is, a swinging stick to the face really hurts. You definitely need to come show us how that's done. I got ten bucks on the bear.
and the darwin award goes to the people who just watched and did nothing. I don't think you understand the Darwin Award concept. You do know they were about an hours walk away from resupply, right? So their biggest suffering was having a late breakfast.

kanga
04-08-2009, 19:17
You definitely need to come show us how that's done. I got ten bucks on the bear.I don't think you understand the Darwin Award concept. You do know they were about an hours walk away from resupply, right? So their biggest suffering was having a late breakfast.

don't knowdwm, i gotta say, right or wrong, i'd do the same thing i think. if i was to wake up and a bear was at my food, general would be out a set of poles. it's the principle. plus, even big animals recognize who's alpha if you put it the right way.

rickb
04-08-2009, 19:23
don't knowdwm, i gotta say, right or wrong, i'd do the same thing i think. if i was to wake up and a bear was at my food, general would be out a set of poles. it's the principle. plus, even big animals recognize who's alpha if you put it the right way.

Its only your food until the bear gets it. Then it becomes the bear's food.

Not so easy taking a bear's food away.

kanga
04-08-2009, 19:25
still my food.

kanga
04-08-2009, 19:28
when our 2000+ lb bulls get pissy and try to tell me they're not getting on the trailer, they don't tell me but once before they decide it's easier to get on in. the bear weighs what, 300 lbs?

Alaskanhkr23
04-08-2009, 19:28
don't hurt the bear unles it hurts you,try putting your stuff more outta reach of the dumbass black bear or pepper rounds are good but they could pop along the wya,plus there sorta hard to get.get some bear spray and spray the ****er harsh and then it will leave or even spray the treen with high doses of spray

kanga
04-08-2009, 19:29
don't hurt the bear unles it hurts you,try putting your stuff more outta reach of the dumbass black bear or pepper rounds are good but they could pop along the wya,plus there sorta hard to get.get some bear spray and spray the ****er harsh and then it will leave or even spray the treen with high doses of spray

?? if it touches my food, i'm gonna whack his ass.

Alaskanhkr23
04-08-2009, 19:34
LOL I wish i could see that,frankly ,blackbears are more likley to attack than a grizzlly would..the only thing i could think of is pepper balls ,but where you get those i do not know,the bears are becoming more aware of high rated food sources on the At ,

rickb
04-08-2009, 19:36
when our 2000+ lb bulls get pissy and try to tell me they're not getting on the trailer, they don't tell me but once before they decide it's easier to get on in. the bear weighs what, 300 lbs?

Bulls eat grass, right?

phillycheze
04-08-2009, 19:36
sticks and stones will do the trick. didn't most of yall swing a bat as a kid?

kanga
04-08-2009, 19:38
Bulls eat grass, right?
eastern black bears are mostly herbivorous... just sayin'.

Bearpaw
04-08-2009, 19:38
Black bears are junky janitors. They go for the easy score. They clean up what's left behind. Wear that nose out with a rock and they're not sticking around unless they are truly starving. Otherwise, they're going to look for an easier meal.

kanga
04-08-2009, 19:40
and bulls may eat grass but they can kill you in 1/2 a second if you're not paying attention. they don't have to bite you. didn't you know that?

rickb
04-08-2009, 19:44
Used to be some pastures along the At where hikers got to walk in with the bulls. Scary stuff that.

Of course that was before I knew cows had horns, too.

Probably not so dangerous after all. ;)

Alaskanhkr23
04-08-2009, 19:51
you guy gotta be worried about the most dangerous creature of all!!! (the horn rabbit beast)

Hikerhead
04-08-2009, 19:58
Used to be some pastures along the At where hikers got to walk in with the bulls. Scary stuff that.

Of course that was before I knew cows had horns, too.

Probably not so dangerous after all. ;)

Still is in Catawba, Va. Those cows have backed me up against the fence before, it wasn't a pleasant feeling.

Dances with Mice
04-08-2009, 19:58
Cool! Meet y'all on top of Blood Saturday! I'll bring a bag of sausage and a videocam. You can use my poles too.

And y'know what, after a couple pulls from General's jar I might go out looking to find that punkass bear myself.

Alaskanhkr23
04-08-2009, 19:59
I think i might just try bitting the bear like start gnawwing on its foot while its in the tree,lol were is blood mountain by the way lmfao!!

Kanati
04-08-2009, 20:01
Not to drift the thread, but slingshots are interesting. Got a favorite?

I always made my own using a dogwood limb for the stock and flat gum rubber for the bands. In the old days before tubless tires we use red innertube for the bands. Those were real rubber. For the pocket I would cut an old shoe tongue. Haven't made one lately though. They are a lot of fun.

In the past 10 or 15 years I've been making self-wood long bows by cutting and seasoning the wood. Two year old dogwood sprouts make good arrows also. Thought about bringing one of these on the trail to get meat for the spit but figured I would get some angry looks so I thought better leave it at home.

Happy hiking. :sun

ed bell
04-08-2009, 20:43
Has no one tried throwing rocks at the bear(s)? that always seems to work for me. I like softball sized ones.I've got a couple of buddies that were on the AT in the Smokys back in the '80's when they encountered a problem bear with cubs one evening at a shelter. (gonna have to find out which one) The bear basically had them pinned in the shelter all night with the gate closed. They had to raise hell to make a run to the spring to get water. Anyway, in the morning the bear was still hanging around, so my friends had to gather rocks and spent the first 45 minutes raising hell and throwing rocks while walking backwards up the trail to keep the momma bear back. She was never charging or threatening them, but was terribly persistant. They said the rocks were effective when the made contact. A disclaimer here, bears in the Smokys tend to be far less shy of people than most other places. I would guess that it would be much easier to scare off a bear in areas where hunting is still allowed.

McKeever
04-08-2009, 20:47
Used to be some pastures along the At where hikers got to walk in with the bulls. Scary stuff that.

Of course that was before I knew cows had horns, too.

Probably not so dangerous after all. ;)

6059
My longhorn cow can defeat any 2000 bull!

Bulldawg
04-08-2009, 21:42
no problem jan, i'll admit it may have been a little of both. we all *thought* our food was safe from bears that night. we had also never seen what all a full grown black bear was capable of until then either. i may choose my food-hanging locations a bit more wisely from now on.

the main reason i wanted to bring this to the attention of anyone possibly heading to blood mountain is the bear was not afraid a bit of humans, and certainly wasnt afraid to come within 20 or so feet of the shelter entrance on its second visit. it also spent some time there sorting through what it wanted before leaving. i would fear before too long it might get bold and start poking around *inside* the shelter.

First of all, why stay on Blood? Stay at either Woods Hole, Slaughter Gap, or make it to Neel. It's only an hour down to the gap!!


It is kind of interesting. In GA and NC most every one seems to be scared of or at least a bit nervous about bare encounters. By the time you get up to Northern New England, Bears no longer phase anyone, they are no longer a topic of conversation, and people are using the shelter mouse hands or using a bear box if there is one.

Which actually brings up a question.. why doesn't every shelter in GA and NC (and TN and VA) simply have a big metal bear box for hiker food? Then no one would have to fuss with food hanging or pulleys and there would be no need for bear warnings. I don't recall seeing a bear box till New Jersey. Why not have them at every shelter? The bears could never get into them, could they?

David

Not every hiker wants to stay in a nasty shelter!!


I'm not sure why park rangers "have" to do anything. But I understand that is the usual practice. However, we shouldn't shy away from the truth. "Putting down" is a pleasant way to think about what happens. Rangers, in fact, kill the bear, using a gun that blows a hole in the bear. Sometimes the first shot doesn't kill the bear. If so, the bear sneaks away to die alone and in pain. If the bear is lucky the ranger will track it down and kill it with a second shot.

If the bear being "put down" is a female, she most likely will leave behind a cub or two, which will slowly starve to death without their mother.

Weary

Good post Weary.

I am not sure why park rangers would have to shoot the bear either.

It is not critical to national security that the Blood Mountain Shelter area be kept open to camping.

If the authorities conclude that neither the bear or hikers will modify their behavior so as to coexist, why not ban camping in the area first?

It need not "already be too late" for the bear.

Bears in Georgia are relocated TWICE before being taken down!!

catfishrivers
04-08-2009, 21:58
the guy who brought the tuba probably could just scare the bear away with some tuba noise blasts...

ed bell
04-08-2009, 22:06
It is kind of interesting. In GA and NC most every one seems to be scared of or at least a bit nervous about bare encounters. <snip>Missed this comment. "Most everyone" is a huge misrepresentation. I've been hiking and backpacking for 25+ years down here and have never run into or had to deal with a problem bear. Also, all my backpacking friends here don't even give bears a second thought. It's basically a non-issue that we have always delt with in the usual way. Too much drama is clouding folk's minds about this. BTW, we ain't got no "bare" down here.:cool:

ed bell
04-08-2009, 22:17
I'm not sure why park rangers "have" to do anything. But I understand that is the usual practice. However, we shouldn't shy away from the truth. "Putting down" is a pleasant way to think about what happens. Rangers, in fact, kill the bear, using a gun that blows a hole in the bear. Sometimes the first shot doesn't kill the bear. If so, the bear sneaks away to die alone and in pain. If the bear is lucky the ranger will track it down and kill it with a second shot.

If the bear being "put down" is a female, she most likely will leave behind a cub or two, which will slowly starve to death without their mother.

WearyNever had any problem bears in Maine? If the answer to that is no, then you folks are fortunate enough to have the elbow room that doesn't lend itself to that sort of problem. The AT in Georgia has numerous shelters and backpackers who turn them into food sources for bears. Also, the current warning is probably due to a single bear that is hip to the food availability situation. It's not like rangers are going around killing bears as a "usual" practice.

Egads
04-08-2009, 22:21
It is kind of interesting. In GA and NC most every one seems to be scared of or at least a bit nervous about bare encounters

Funny, I live in GA and look forwards to bare encounters. ;)

I kinda like bear encounters too.

randyg45
04-08-2009, 22:52
I found all the Rube Goldberg painball/pepper ball (?!) stuff pretty amusing. I carry UDAP... http://www.udap.com/product.htm .... and I'm personally certain that the proper repeated use of it will cure the bear of his theiving ways.

Reid
04-08-2009, 22:58
we ain't got no "bare" down here

good point

ShakeyLeggs
04-09-2009, 04:45
paintball guns range from $30 - $1500. To get one to shoot at a high enough velocity for the bear to notice you would have to get one that can run off high pressure nitrogen , such guns (or as paintballers like to call them, "markers") start around $200. the tanks for the HPA themselves start around $50 and work up to $200. A case of 2000 paintballs that could stand to be shot at a high enough velocity to hurt a bear would be like $60+, or they make solid rubber target rounds for much more. I've never heard of pepper filled paintballs, but I quit playing 3 years ago. Having played the game on a semi-pro team I can tell you there is no market for pepper paint, actually could see that getting banned fast like they did to blood colored paint or oil based paint (paintballs now are made form biodegradable water based paint). But, the normal paint tastes absolutely horrible, and hurts bad when it gets in your eyes (personal experience). Here's the good news. The fastest markers shoot 40+ balls PER SECOND (although the feeder system for such speeds are also expensive). getting hit more than once hurts even at the tournament standard of 280 feet per second, and can draw blood in humans. you could easily ramp up the velocity of the paintballs to 400 feet per second (after that the paint starts breaking in the barrel). Find a local paintball field and I'm sure there would be more than a few volunteers with the experience to shoot a bear. :D

Here ya go. I also used to play paintball professionally for a local paintball shop.

http://www.pepperball.com/law/products.html

The pepperballs are larger than the recballs so you would have to get a marker that will fire them. They are sold on that link as well but only to law enforcement and military.

Skidsteer
04-09-2009, 19:28
Hikers used to complain about the mice and rats at Blood Mtn Shelter.

So we installed a mice and rat deterrent.

Some people call them "striped skunk". Then they started complaining about the skunks that came through the shelter each night looking for mice and rats.

So we installed a skunk deterrent.

Some people call it "black bear". Now they're complaining about the bear.

But notice how nobody's complaining about the mice, rats or skunks?

I'd say the situation is improving.

Let me know before you try the Tigers, willya?


I've seen a lot of people hang food and know they are doing it in a way that makes it easy for a bear to get, but if they were to use the PCT method (whatever that is) how would it prevent a bear getting the food if he chews through the line.

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/17178/

From the article:

"The bear has allegedly learned how to chew through a rope to make a suspended pack fall to the ground. Hikers have tried shouting and banging on things to scare the bear away, but according to the reports, the animal just glances at them and then goes back to chowing down on the stolen food."

Reports say that this one crawls out on the branch and starts jumping up and down until he and the food bags fall. Sucker think's he's Chuck Norris. So far the best solution for this Yogi is one that doesn't depend on a tree.

Dances with Mice
04-09-2009, 20:07
Let me know before you try the Tigers, willya?You kidding? With all the semi-pro and professional paintballers on this thread alone I'm now reading it wearing a hardhat and goggles.

If/when I get laid off my chemistry gig can I fall back onto the pro paintball circuit? Is there like a school or something?

paradoxb3
04-10-2009, 19:00
rotate watch if u can. if the bear goes for your stuff, whoop its ass. i don't care what or who it is, a swinging stick to the face really hurts. a shelter full of hikers better be able to defeat a bear... or get it to run off... also, did yall have a fire going?

and the darwin award goes to the people who just watched and did nothing. bravo.

put it on youtube when you do it, rambo.

for the record we're not talking about a cub, it was a hellouva big a$$ hungry bear... one which i was NOT about to approach swinging an aluminum hiking pole. i beleve that would have won me a darwin award for sure. the downside was a late breakfast at neels gap. *big* *freakin* *deal.*

for those criticizing us for not moving on, where exactly would you have us go at 11 at night considering the next 7 or so miles of the AT are closed to camping for the same reason? mountain crossings was closed, and the next shelter was low gap, about 12-13 miles. so you suggest i should have hiked there, tired, in the middle of the night, with no supplies, and two days of freezing weather and snow ahead of me?

for christs sake, i started the thread to simply inform other hikers of the situation in hopes they might avoid a repeat of my experience.

daddytwosticks
04-10-2009, 19:16
Paradoxb3...thanks for the information and heads up about the bear situation. I'll be hiking solo from Amicalola to Neel(s) Gap in mid-May. Hope the problem "goes away". Thanks again. :)

Dances with Mice
04-10-2009, 20:18
the downside was a late breakfast at neels gap. *big* *freakin* *deal.* True. Anybody starting at Springer and hanging food at Blood should have nothing left by that point but oatmeal, crackers, and crap they're going to throw in the hiker box at Neel's. By that time hikers shouldn't be carrying anything worth fighting over against a chipmunk.

ChrisM
04-10-2009, 23:33
I tried the PCT method on my week long section hike in TN/NC last month, and found that finding the right tree often presented a problem. My poor aim didn't help either. My shelter mates-looked at me funny as I threw (or attempted to throw) my rock bag 50 ft in the air, time after time.

take-a-knee
04-10-2009, 23:43
I tried the PCT method on my week long section hike in TN/NC last month, and found that finding the right tree often presented a problem. My poor aim didn't help either. My shelter mates-looked at me funny as I threw (or attempted to throw) my rock bag 50 ft in the air, time after time.

You gotta practice BEFORE the hike, kinda like surgery. Your rock shoulda been going about 25 ft. in the air, 'cause the limb needs to be 20ft or so. I twirl the rock bag under hand and release it as it rises. That way you only need to bee about 10-12 ft away from directly underneath the limb you are aiming at. I usually get it over the limb within two or three tries, but I have practiced a bit. Oh, and don't use mesh for a rock sack, one of my most bone-headed moves. And by all means gets the spectra cord, worth every cent.

Blue Jay
04-11-2009, 10:09
I've been hiking and backpacking for 25+ years down here and have never run into or had to deal with a problem bear. Also, all my backpacking friends here don't even give bears a second thought. It's basically a non-issue that we have always delt with in the usual way. Too much drama is clouding folk's minds about this.

You got that right. Most of these people are scared little bunnies who've never been in the woods at night.

zoidfu
04-11-2009, 10:19
Bulls eat grass, right?

I've never seen someone ride a bear either

Blue Jay
04-12-2009, 09:18
I've never seen someone ride a bear either

My neighbor, a forest ranger, has a collection of old photos, taken back when they had open dumps in the Dacks, of children who had been placed by their parents, on the backs of bears eating garbage. Humans are so massively stupid, the fact that they still exist is the primary reason I believe in higher powers.

Engine
04-12-2009, 09:25
My neighbor, a forest ranger, has a collection of old photos, taken back when they had open dumps in the Dacks, of children who had been placed by their parents, on the backs of bears eating garbage. Humans are so massively stupid, the fact that they still exist is the primary reason I believe in higher powers.

A few years ago, some STUPID mother placed her child on the back of a grazing bison in Yellowstone. She was childless by the end of the day...

DavidNH
04-15-2009, 09:46
I gotta ask... who who really camps on top of Blood Mountain?

I mean there is a shelter up there with NO water available. It is a damp stone shelter (at least it was in 2006). If that is not enough, hike an hour or so down hill you get to Walsa Yi Hostel in Kneels Gap. Just hike up and over the thing and don't give the beats a thought!

DavidNH

max patch
04-15-2009, 10:02
A lot of people camp (not stay in the cabin) on top of Blood. The large rocks by the shelter are arguably the best views from the trail in Georgia. Great place to watch the sun set.

The hostel and cabins at Neels get a lot of business, but really, who needs an inside room on day 2 or 3 of their thru? I'd save the money for later.

Lone Wolf
04-15-2009, 10:22
but really, who needs an inside room on day 2 or 3 of their thru?

or a shower and laundry?

Lugnut
04-15-2009, 16:19
I gotta ask... who who really camps on top of Blood Mountain?

I mean there is a shelter up there with NO water available. It is a damp stone shelter (at least it was in 2006). If that is not enough, hike an hour or so down hill you get to Walsa Yi Hostel in Kneels Gap. Just hike up and over the thing and don't give the beats a thought!

DavidNH

I camped up there. The bugs were awful! Wouldn't do it again.

jrnj5k
04-16-2009, 21:37
How do you know the difference between black bear poop and brown bear poop?

Brown bear poop has bells in it and smells like pepper spray.....

vamelungeon
04-16-2009, 21:42
I have black bears around my house. They've been seen in my driveway (not by me) and there is bear sign in the woods above the house. We've never had a problem with them. I don't see them as being a problem on a hike either.

JDCool1
04-18-2009, 22:36
I have been led to believe that the Black Bear is the predominant breed in the lower USA. The only other bear in the US is the Grizzly found in mainly Montana, northern Wyoming, Idaho. The Black bear varies in color from brown to black. The Grizzly is brown. AT hikers will experience the Black in national parks, forests, but it would be rare indeed to bump into a Brown or Grizzly.

Many Walks
04-18-2009, 23:29
Blood Mountain has some great spots to camp, but you have to look around a little for them tucked back in the trees. We had a nice sunset on the rocks, a great night and a beautiful sunrise. Hiked down to Walasi and had hot dogs for breakfast. Life is good around there!

Sunshine Tami Jo
04-21-2011, 00:51
Haven't read all of the posts about the bear, and won't, because I'm on a brief town stop. I'm part of the Class of 2011, and I was in the area when the bear encounters were happening. I was lucky, and yes, my food is in my tent with me, along with my dog. I may reevaluate this position,but for now that's what I do.

The bear DID come into the shelter. The Blood Mountain shelter has two rooms. The hikers that were there put their packs in the front room and bedded down in the rear room. The bear crawled into the window of the front room and made off with a hiker's food. I know because the hiker, known as Quiet, told me about it himself, so I heard it first hand. I was sleeping on the mountain just before Blood Mountain myself, and missed all of the action.

Doughnut
04-21-2011, 06:36
Red nylon mesh bag with Parmesan cheese in it? I picked up the trash and packed it out. Looks like a very small bear, judging from the teeth imprints on the containers.

Snowleopard
04-21-2011, 10:52
I found all the Rube Goldberg painball/pepper ball (?!) stuff pretty amusing. I carry UDAP... http://www.udap.com/product.htm .... and I'm personally certain that the proper repeated use of it will cure the bear of his theiving ways.
Using this near crowded shelters or camping areas can potentially cause human fatalities to asthma sufferers; there have been fatalities from the use of police pepper spray, which I think is less potent. Certainly, use it if a bear is attacking someone, but just to punish a bear for stealing food it's overkill. If I were downwind from a spray, I'd get pretty sick but probably not die.

There used to be pretty bad bear problems in the Adirondack High Peaks region; that has improved since bear canisters were required.

Pedaling Fool
04-21-2011, 16:34
Certainly, use it if a bear is attacking someone, but just to punish a bear for stealing food it's overkill.
Am I stepping into a trap here? Are you serious? I don't carry spray, but if I did there's two senarios I could think of using it. To stop an attack and to stop a bear from stealing food.

Ain't an issue of punishing; simply a matter of not allowing the bear to become accustomed to associating human with food.

That's exactly what's happening now down in Ga/N.C. area. Bears now know people (in very large numbers) hang food.

Monkeyboy
04-21-2011, 17:01
From the USFS.



REFERENCE:

Appalachian Trail Closed to Camping Between Neels Gap and Jarrard Gap
Area(s): Appalachian Trail in Georgia, Byron Herbert Reece Trail, Dockery
Lake Recreation Area, Duncan Ridge Trail, Lake Winfield Scott Campground,
Springer Mountain Trailhead, Woody Gap Trailhead

Date(s): Apr 15, 2011

Contact(s): Erika Mavity, (706)745-6928

The Appalachian Trail between Neels Gap and Jarrard Gap is closed to camping
as a safety measure until further notice.
This includes the Blood Mountain and Woods Hole Shelters. Day hiking is
allowed. Any camping on side trails should take place at least one-quarter
mile from the AT. Persistent bear activity and improper food storage by
hikers has led to this temporary closure.
Call the U.S. Forest Service at (706)745-6928 if you have any questions.



So if I am correct, one could just hike down the blue blaze to the Kimsey Creek Campsite??? I think that is the blue blaze between Woods Hole and Blood Mnt., is it not?

max patch
04-21-2011, 17:08
So if I am correct, one could just hike down the blue blaze to the Kimsey Creek Campsite??? I think that is the blue blaze between Woods Hole and Blood Mnt., is it not?

No. Kimsey Creek is about 60 miles N in NC.

You can blue blaze W down to Lake Winnfield Scott or blue blaze E around (instead of over) Blood Mtn.

WingedMonkey
04-21-2011, 17:14
Map of closed area
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5292809.pdf

Snowleopard
04-21-2011, 17:26
Am I stepping into a trap here? Are you serious? I don't carry spray, but if I did there's two senarios I could think of using it. To stop an attack and to stop a bear from stealing food.

Ain't an issue of punishing; simply a matter of not allowing the bear to become accustomed to associating human with food.

That's exactly what's happening now down in Ga/N.C. area. Bears now know people (in very large numbers) hang food.
Mostly, I agree with you. Just be aware that pepper spray may not be safe to use near some people with asthma.

I've read of rangers in the GA/NC area using something to teach the bears the bears to associate human food and shelters with pain or fear -- rubber bullets? pepper spray? firecrackers? They do this sort of thing midweek so there aren't so many people around. Sadly, it doesn't seem to helped enough.

vamelungeon
04-21-2011, 17:31
When the game wardens here trap a problem bear, before it's released they do use fireworks and other techniques to make bear-human contact a negative experience and it seems to work. I can't remember if they pepper spray them or not but the bears don't seem to want any more human contact. Mind you this isn't on the AT, just bears causing problems in the community.

mweinstone
04-21-2011, 18:17
i could hike tommorow and hug janet too . if only. but alas, my bearproofing inventions have no investers.

one last time:
a mylar foodbag with a mirrorlike finnish and a colapsable stiffner that when used creates a mirror the bear thinks he sees another bear in .

a rather large , yet colapsable and light passive parabolic sound dish that when used atop a foodbag reflects any sounds, breathing, snorting, grasping sounds,..back at a volume that disorents the bear into thinking someones comming.

a food bag material that simply cant be handeled without creating the loudest crinkeling poping noises when armed by turning it inside out and reversing the lining made of chalk and chalkboard materials that screetch when handled but are scilent when simply blowing in the wind. this material is still in the brainstorming stage but i call it loudlon,as i belive it will be made of nylon and loud.

mweinstone
04-21-2011, 18:25
it is possible a lifelike blow up representation of a dog sleeping with the foodbag could be my ticket outta here. just sayin.n some of yall got trees where you live and die. we dont. i dare you to street google map my hood. do it . if you find a tree i be shocked. 16th st and snyder ave

Monkeyboy
04-21-2011, 18:49
No. Kimsey Creek is about 60 miles N in NC.

You can blue blaze W down to Lake Winnfield Scott or blue blaze E around (instead of over) Blood Mtn.

My bad. I was thinking of Slaughter Gap maybe???

JERMM
04-21-2011, 19:44
Haven't read all of the posts about the bear, and won't, because I'm on a brief town stop. I'm part of the Class of 2011, and I was in the area when the bear encounters were happening. I was lucky, and yes, my food is in my tent with me, along with my dog. I may reevaluate this position,but for now that's what I do.

The bear DID come into the shelter. The Blood Mountain shelter has two rooms. The hikers that were there put their packs in the front room and bedded down in the rear room. The bear crawled into the window of the front room and made off with a hiker's food. I know because the hiker, known as Quiet, told me about it himself, so I heard it first hand. I was sleeping on the mountain just before Blood Mountain myself, and missed all of the action.

you might consider reading a more recent thread, this thread was opened in 2009...just saying

max patch
04-21-2011, 20:05
you might consider reading a more recent thread, this thread was opened in 2009...just saying

Yeah, but its probably the same bear :)

TallShark
04-21-2011, 20:13
^very true, their territory/ range is vast but usually, especially in areas such as these, they stay in the same general area for a few years. When there is easily obtainable foodstuffs why leave. Probably is the same bear.

kanga
04-21-2011, 22:42
Yeah, but its probably the same bear :)
no, it's not. that bear was taken care of. however, it is most likely another cub from the same mother bear. her den is within 20 miles.

general
04-22-2011, 09:00
My bad. I was thinking of Slaughter Gap maybe???

freeman trail, from bird gap to balance rock, or council rock, or what ever you wanna call that big rock at the end of the byron reese memorial trail. that's the foul weather route around Blood Mtn.

Pedaling Fool
04-22-2011, 09:11
From the USFS.



So if I am correct, one could just hike down the blue blaze to the Kimsey Creek Campsite??? I think that is the blue blaze between Woods Hole and Blood Mnt., is it not?
Name of the trail may be incorrect, but the same thought went thru my head when I read that USFS notice. Just go away from the AT to camp. Not for fear of bears, just to be legal. If being legal is important to you;) But if you fear the bear, then be afraid, be very afraid:D

moshi
05-04-2011, 10:40
From the USFS.


Quote:
REFERENCE:

Appalachian Trail Closed to Camping Between Neels Gap and Jarrard Gap
Area(s): Appalachian Trail in Georgia, Byron Herbert Reece Trail, Dockery
Lake Recreation Area, Duncan Ridge Trail, Lake Winfield Scott Campground,
Springer Mountain Trailhead, Woody Gap Trailhead

Date(s): Apr 15, 2011

Contact(s): Erika Mavity, (706)745-6928

The Appalachian Trail between Neels Gap and Jarrard Gap is closed to camping
as a safety measure until further notice.
This includes the Blood Mountain and Woods Hole Shelters. Day hiking is
allowed. Any camping on side trails should take place at least one-quarter
mile from the AT. Persistent bear activity and improper food storage by
hikers has led to this temporary closure.
Call the U.S. Forest Service at (706)745-6928 if you have any questions.


Solely b/c of bad hikers/campers not following leave no trace practices.

I always carry extra garbage bags and I always manage to fill them with other peoples trash.

Blood Mountain should be closed to day users. It has become the tallest spetic mound in GA. Absolutley disgusting.

I cannot wait to get out in nature and leave trash behind.

Take down the trail signs and return nature back to nature.

If everyone had to be proficient at orienteering the forest would be a much cleaner place.

flemdawg1
05-04-2011, 11:38
Solely b/c of bad hikers/campers not following leave no trace practices.

I always carry extra garbage bags and I always manage to fill them with other peoples trash.

Blood Mountain should be closed to day users. It has become the tallest spetic mound in GA. Absolutley disgusting.

I cannot wait to get out in nature and leave trash behind.

Take down the trail signs and return nature back to nature.

If everyone had to be proficient at orienteering the forest would be a much cleaner place.

It would also be completely paved over or strip mined, because if it wasn't accessible, people wouldn't care about it.
There's plenty of trails if you want to avoid the crowds and their trash. But having an elitist, "keep them out" attitude only isolates the wilds from public concern to its own detriment.

moshi
05-04-2011, 12:33
It would also be completely paved over or strip mined, because if it wasn't accessible, people wouldn't care about it.
There's plenty of trails if you want to avoid the crowds and their trash. But having an elitist, "keep them out" attitude only isolates the wilds from public concern to its own detriment.

Yes, everything that is inaccessible to humans is destroyed and unappreciated. Brilliant!

I am not sure if there are any mineral deposits below blood mtn. that would make it worth strip mining and your assertion of paving it is just silly.

You must not have hiked to some of the ledges below the summit and seen the piles of human feces w/ white flags on top. In the high summer the summit can literally smell like a toilet.

I generally stick to the wilderness areas to avoid the crowds. Guess what? People leave trash there as well.

I am far from an elitist and I do not want to "keep them out". I want everyone to enjoy the natural beauty that exists around them. I also want them to respect it by not leaving trash and by handling their personal waste in the appropriate places and manner. A rock ledge is not an appropriate place.

My point that you missed is that the more experienced (skilled) outdoorsman/woman tends to be more mature and responsible in their actions and decision making.

DrRichardCranium
05-04-2011, 16:14
Does pepper spray also work on aliens?

Graywolf
05-04-2011, 17:15
This thread has been going on for some time. I thought the reason it was closed was because of a rogue bear. I thought they shot it.?? So theres another? Might as well close the whole AT is bears are really annoying hikers....:eek:

Wonder what will close it next year. A falling. Leaf..LOL

Pedaling Fool
05-04-2011, 21:43
Does pepper spray also work on aliens?
The medical experiments they conduct on you is far less painful than the retaliatory measures they will inflict upon you if you mace there big bug eyes.

Sierra Echo
05-04-2011, 21:51
freeman trail, from bird gap to balance rock, or council rock, or what ever you wanna call that big rock at the end of the byron reese memorial trail. that's the foul weather route around Blood Mtn.

Flat Rock!

Graywolf
05-04-2011, 22:24
The medical experiments they conduct on you is far less painful than the retaliatory measures they will inflict upon you if you mace there big bug eyes.

Çould be a group of Amazon Women.. Hmmmmm..That could prove interesting..

Red Hat
05-05-2011, 09:20
This thread has been going on for some time. I thought the reason it was closed was because of a rogue bear. I thought they shot it.?? So theres another? Might as well close the whole AT is bears are really annoying hikers....:eek:

Wonder what will close it next year. A falling. Leaf..LOL

FYI, the closure to camping is not for the hikers' sakes... it is for the bears' sakes. Stupid hikers leave food for them, then blame the bears for doing what is natural. Last year they had to put the bear down. The Forest Service doesn't want to do that again. So to protect the bears, they issued the no camping notice.

drumdancer
05-05-2011, 18:33
How about this idea, lets feed the bears food like donuts laced with exlax ? Would this have change the bears habits towards human food ? thoughts ???? Peter

WildTomato
05-09-2011, 05:40
Forget Bears, the real warning should be for Blood Mountain itself to beware of Hikers.

When I went though Blood in 2008 and 2010, it was a stinky cesspool with garbage all over the place. I was truly ashamed to see what Hikers did to the mountain. The smell was at times overpowering from the open piles of feces. We looked around, and while we saw crap out in the open, it was not enough to account for the level of stink we experienced.

I picked up what trash I could and moved on because Blood Mountain to me is a write off due to Hiker abuse.

So watch out Blood Mountain, and enjoy this brief respite from the hikers due to Bears!

weary
05-09-2011, 18:14
There's no excuse for the trash. But part of the blame rests with the management policies of the government agencies, the maintaining club, and ATC.

First, every overnight facility needs a composting latrine. It's sheer stupidity to build a shelter and to not provide for the disposal of human waste.

Second, trash breeds trash. Maintainers must keep the area picked up, or expect, the pile of trash will build up. A clean shelter stays reasonably clean except for the occasional irresponsible hiker. But once a site is trashed, many will add to the trash. They shouldn't. But they will. It's human nature. "A little more won't do any harm," is how humans think.

Third, Leave no trace is an impossible goal. As a result only a relative handful of hikers pay any attention to the message. For most the message runs in one ear and out the other, without ever connecting with a human brain.

Sadly, the hiking community has bought into an impossible message, promulgated by what essentially is a business. Thousands earn their living in whole or in part from leave no trace. The fact that it doesn't work no longer enters into the equation.

Far more effective is a simple, carry in, carry out message.

max patch
05-09-2011, 18:32
While hikers have certainly done their share to screw up Blood Mountain, probably most of the abuse at the site is done by dayhikers - many whose only AT mileage is from Neels Gap to the summit of Blood. That is the highest used section of the trail in GA.

Razor
05-09-2011, 19:26
1) Therer is a composting latrine at the summit of Blood and also at Woods Hole .They are maintained to the highest standard.
2)It is impossible to keep up with the trash there unless someone is placed there on a perminent basis. Something that is financially unacceptable and not in the realm of possible for club volunteers .
3) Yes the damage is done mostly by day hikers who go there for the only nature visit of their lifetime. It is not a trip an experienced hiker covets because of this traffic. The USFS is doing its best to give people an introduction to the forrests through Blood. The club is trying to keep the trail through an historic section which would be a shame to close. In these times of tight budgets a muddle through approach is all that can be done. If this does not work ,expect other measures that the hiking community will not like . And yes we will suffer beacause of uneducated day tripers who will shout the loudest.

LoneRidgeRunner
05-09-2011, 20:17
Let's organize a bear hunt so there will be plenty of bear meat for Trail Days. Bear BBQ, anyone?

I hear Bear meat is barely fit for human consumption..But since Deer (my favorite wild meat) don't steal food I guess Bear it is...

weary
05-09-2011, 20:24
1) ....2)It is impossible to keep up with the trash there unless someone is placed there on a perminent basis. Something that is financially unacceptable and not in the realm of possible for club volunteers ......
....trash breeds trash. Maintainers must keep the area picked up, or expect, the pile of trash will build up. A clean shelter stays reasonably clean except for the occasional irresponsible hiker. But once a site is trashed, many will add to the trash. They shouldn't. But they will. It's human nature. "A little more won't do any harm," is how humans think.

general
05-09-2011, 20:31
There's no excuse for the trash. But part of the blame rests with the management policies of the government agencies, the maintaining club, and ATC.

First, every overnight facility needs a composting latrine. It's sheer stupidity to build a shelter and to not provide for the disposal of human waste.

it wasn't always a shelter for AT hikers. it was built originally as a fireman's cabin if i'm not mistaken. you would have to build 10 privies to accomodate all of the turons that go up there. camping there has been discouraged by the forest service for years. they close the area for bears, next thing you know they'll close it because of dooky.

weary
05-09-2011, 22:14
it wasn't always a shelter for AT hikers. it was built originally as a fireman's cabin if i'm not mistaken. you would have to build 10 privies to accomodate all of the turons that go up there. camping there has been discouraged by the forest service for years. they close the area for bears, next thing you know they'll close it because of dooky.
I don't know why it was built, but it was built on the Appalachian Trail between 1934 and 1937 by Civilian Conservation Corps crews, so it has been visited from the beginning by AT hikers.

Judging by the available parking spaces, there are hundreds of places along the trail and elsewhere with similar or greater useage. Like a lot of the trail in the south, Blood Mountain is especially trashed because of poor management practices.

hailstones
05-10-2011, 00:02
I'm curious now, going to hike there, make video of it for youtube, just need to purchase some pepper balls for paintball gun!

moshi
05-10-2011, 09:40
Like a lot of the trail in the south, Blood Mountain is especially trashed because of poor management practices.

This is just wrong.

The reason it is trashed is b/c people (visitors, hikers, day trippers) deposit trash on the ground and refuse to act as responsible and caring people.

It is a case of simple mathematics with regard to refuse. There are exponentially more depositors of trash to the ground than there are removers of trash from the ground.

The fact is that if the trash were never placed on the ground in the first place there would be no need to pay or have someone to maintain an area.

Your earlier assertion that LNT is an impossible goal is laughable. I assume that b/c you post here you are a serious hiker and outdoor person. It is disturbing that you blamed the government and the maintainers for the accumulation of trash while at the same time dismissing the real cause as "human nature".

As a citizen who picks up trash daily from the sidewalks of my town's streets as I walk for pleasure and as a hiker who always hikes out more trash than I generate I say BOO to you.

carry in - carry out is LNT

weary
05-10-2011, 12:21
This is just wrong.

The reason it is trashed is b/c people (visitors, hikers, day trippers) deposit trash on the ground and refuse to act as responsible and caring people.

It is a case of simple mathematics with regard to refuse. There are exponentially more depositors of trash to the ground than there are removers of trash from the ground.

The fact is that if the trash were never placed on the ground in the first place there would be no need to pay or have someone to maintain an area.

Your earlier assertion that LNT is an impossible goal is laughable. I assume that b/c you post here you are a serious hiker and outdoor person. It is disturbing that you blamed the government and the maintainers for the accumulation of trash while at the same time dismissing the real cause as "human nature".

As a citizen who picks up trash daily from the sidewalks of my town's streets as I walk for pleasure and as a hiker who always hikes out more trash than I generate I say BOO to you.

carry in - carry out is LNT
I've watched the trails go from filthy with crap, to remarkably clean, back to filthy with trash. A few of us cleaned up the can dumps that used to grace every fire place as the message of "carry in, carry out" caught on in the late 60s, early 70s. The turn around was truly remarkable.

Sadly, when the simple, but doable message was forgotten, and the impossible "leave no trace" message took its place, I watched the trash return.

A couple of years before he died, I met the Paul Petzoldt, who invented the LNT movement. By then he had abandoned the concept. Why? "It's impossible to achieve, so people stop hearing the message," Paul said.

skooch
05-10-2011, 12:46
It's not impossible. I haven't been there yet and I got the message and am happy to comply. I believe WB and all the people on it comply.

WingedMonkey
05-10-2011, 12:51
For every free burger a hiker receives at Neels Gap they should be charged one 5 gal bag of trash. They will run out of trash before they run out of burgers.

weary
05-10-2011, 13:13
It's not impossible. I haven't been there yet and I got the message and am happy to comply. I believe WB and all the people on it comply.
Most of us on White Blaze spend time in the outdoors and writing and thinking about the outdoors. We understand the complexities of leave no trace. But we represent a tiny fraction of one percent of the outdoor community.

A typical user of the outdoors doesn't do this. He just goes out for a walk or to camp. Carry in, Carry out can be absorbed in the fraction of a second it takes to read the message. Leave no trace is a simple message also, except when the reader turns around and sees his footprints in the mud. We are bombarded with messages everyday. Most we ignore, especially those that are in anyway ambiguous, or unpleasant. The evidence of my eyes tells me that LNT fails the test.

bfayer
05-10-2011, 17:22
Most of us on White Blaze spend time in the outdoors and writing and thinking about the outdoors. We understand the complexities of leave no trace. But we represent a tiny fraction of one percent of the outdoor community.

A typical user of the outdoors doesn't do this. He just goes out for a walk or to camp. Carry in, Carry out can be absorbed in the fraction of a second it takes to read the message. Leave no trace is a simple message also, except when the reader turns around and sees his footprints in the mud. We are bombarded with messages everyday. Most we ignore, especially those that are in anyway ambiguous, or unpleasant. The evidence of my eyes tells me that LNT fails the test.

I was doing a talk on NLT to new scout parents. I handed out the NLT handout and was going over the principles and one of the Moms read the part about packing out used TP, and said "that's not going to happen" and from that point on the rest of the group had the "when is this talk done" look on their faces.

I believe it is far better to teach "pack it in pack it out", and "leave it better than you found it" to the average weekend hiker. If you can encourage each one to carry out 1 or 2 items of trash, then we will be a lot further ahead.

When you start telling them to pack out used TP or to not use TP at all, you start sounding like a zealot and they stop hearing.

Just my two cents.

Pedaling Fool
05-10-2011, 17:27
I was doing a talk on NLT to new scout parents. I handed out the NLT handout and was going over the principles and one of the Moms read the part about packing out used TP, and said "that's not going to happen" and from that point on the rest of the group had the "when is this talk done" look on their faces.

I believe it is far better to teach "pack it in pack it out", and "leave it better than you found it" to the average weekend hiker. If you can encourage each one to carry out 1 or 2 items of trash, then we will be a lot further ahead.

When you start telling them to pack out used TP or to not use TP at all, you start sounding like a zealot and they stop hearing.

Just my two cents.
From some of the LNT stuff I read it does not recommend packing out TP, except in desert/arctic-like environments, but not on (most) of the AT. You gotta admit, packing out TP is kind of zealous. Just not required.

Has LNT changed WRT packing out TP?

moshi
05-10-2011, 18:21
I've watched the trails go from filthy with crap, to remarkably clean, back to filthy with trash. A few of us cleaned up the can dumps that used to grace every fire place as the message of "carry in, carry out" caught on in the late 60s, early 70s. The turn around was truly remarkable.

Sadly, when the simple, but doable message was forgotten, and the impossible "leave no trace" message took its place, I watched the trash return.

A couple of years before he died, I met the Paul Petzoldt, who invented the LNT movement. By then he had abandoned the concept. Why? "It's impossible to achieve, so people stop hearing the message," Paul said.

Unfortunately, I think it is a symptom (one of many) of a larger systemic societal problem.

I understand the argument of LNT is impossible. If you step on a twig that snaps, leave a footprint in the dirt, or a scuff mark on a rock you have left a trace.

From that perspective it is a flawed philosophy, but is that the right perspective?

I argue it is not.

If anything it is a conceptual starting point, a goal that represents a high bar of achievment, and is certainly worthy of merit.

Like I said, carry in - carry out is leave no trace.

It is the extreme sport form of good stewardship.

bfayer
05-10-2011, 21:13
From some of the LNT stuff I read it does not recommend packing out TP, except in desert/arctic-like environments, but not on (most) of the AT. You gotta admit, packing out TP is kind of zealous. Just not required.

Has LNT changed WRT packing out TP?

http://www.lnt.org/training/PDFs/PrinciplesTrifold.pdf

"Deposit solid
human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products."

We just use the materials from the web site.

Pedaling Fool
05-10-2011, 21:20
http://www.lnt.org/training/PDFs/PrinciplesTrifold.pdf

"Deposit solid
human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products."

We just use the materials from the web site.
That does seem new, however, it may be that LNT is not well standardized. That's just not necessary. Are they saying that you should also pack out TP when using a backwoods privy? I guaranteeTP in the woods breaks down much quicker than TP in a privy, even most of the mouldering/composting privies.

bfayer
05-10-2011, 21:36
Also from the site:

http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php

"Natural toilet paper has been used by many campers for years. When done correctly, this method is as sanitary as regular toilet paper, but without the impact problems. Popular types of natural toilet paper include stones, vegetation and snow."

I am not saying I disagree with any of this. I am just pointing out that the average weekend suburban hiker is going to lose interest in LNT very quickly if we start preaching this stuff.

The average person wants to feel like they are doing the right thing, they just don't want to put a lot of effort into it.

Nearly Normal
05-10-2011, 21:41
Blood Mountain is especially trashed because of poor management practices.

Wrong!
By hikers that don't have any respect for anything. Too busy being "awesome."
All the shelters I've looked in are trashy, carved up, written on, food stained and treated terribly.
HIKERS do this.
Even the ones away from road access.
When was the last time you saw someone do something like this and didn't say a word about it, or found the same name magic markered on each shelter you pass by.
Don't blame all this on townies, or section hikers or anyone else.
"Whoa dude", "that's Awesome".
Enough people go to places like Blood Mountain to put a stop to it.

weary
05-10-2011, 23:11
Unfortunately, I think it is a symptom (one of many) of a larger systemic societal problem.

I understand the argument of LNT is impossible. If you step on a twig that snaps, leave a footprint in the dirt, or a scuff mark on a rock you have left a trace.

From that perspective it is a flawed philosophy, but is that the right perspective?

I argue it is not.

If anything it is a conceptual starting point, a goal that represents a high bar of achievment, and is certainly worthy of merit.

Like I said, carry in - carry out is leave no trace.

It is the extreme sport form of good stewardship.
I guess it depends on whether you are looking for a philosophical discussion, or whether you are seeking to change hiker attitudes. LNT is great for discussions such as we are having here. It has proved to be a terrible way to get most hikers to pick up after themselves, and others. Most just tune out the message.

Cutty
05-10-2011, 23:23
no one has mention my favorite method of getting rid of the bears
when they get in way! that way is with FIRE! CRACKERS! have used
them in the SMOKIES big success. throw out 4 firecrackers with the
fuses twisted together, throw them as close to old ugly bruin as
you can ! have tried it with much success. they can't stand loud
noises such as FC.
Cutty

moshi
05-12-2011, 19:29
I guess it depends on whether you are looking for a philosophical discussion, or whether you are seeking to change hiker attitudes. LNT is great for discussions such as we are having here. It has proved to be a terrible way to get most hikers to pick up after themselves, and others. Most just tune out the message.

Siddhartha never sought to change anyone.

If practiced LNT is great in reality.

Like I said it is a societal problem. Visit any city in America and look at all of the trash. Some of those people come to the woods. When in the woods they throw trash on the ground just like they do when they are in the city.

For some reason you refuse to blame those who deserve and instead call a philosophy failed and impossible to implement.

I am confused as to why you keep blaming LNT and not the people that leave the trash.

bfayer
05-12-2011, 21:25
Siddhartha never sought to change anyone.

I am confused as to why you keep blaming LNT and not the people that leave the trash.

I don't think any one is letting people off the hook, but people are who they are.

Think of it like this. A craftsman uses tools to turn his raw material into a useable product. If he has the wrong tools for the job at hand, the final product will turn out poor. It does no good to blame the raw material, the raw material is what it is. A skilled craftsman uses the tools most suited to the job.

In this case people are the raw material, LNT is the tool. All anyone on here is trying to say is that it is a poor tool for the job at hand.

Since we can't control the raw material, our only choice is to change the tools.

Beachcomber
05-12-2011, 21:39
I don't think any one is letting people off the hook, but people are who they are.

Think of it like this. A craftsman uses tools to turn his raw material into a useable product. If he has the wrong tools for the job at hand, the final product will turn out poor. It does no good to blame the raw material, the raw material is what it is. A skilled craftsman uses the tools most suited to the job.

In this case people are the raw material, LNT is the tool. All anyone on here is trying to say is that it is a poor tool for the job at hand.

Since we can't control the raw material, our only choice is to change the tools.

Flawed analogy. "Raw materials" are passive, totally subject to the craftsman or manufacturer working with them. As a card-carrying "people" myself, I take offense to being called "raw material." I won't go on an extended rant about social engineering, "Building Socialism," "The New Soviet Man," or other ideological systems that treated people as raw materials in the service of some grand idea, but that kind of thinking not only doesn't work, but it also generates massive cruelty and injustice.

And, aside from the "raw material" idea, though as a society we can't completely control people, we CAN influence each other. Plenty of offensive practices that were commonplace in my youth are rare, or considered unacceptable, today.

weary
05-12-2011, 22:04
Siddhartha never sought to change anyone.

If practiced LNT is great in reality.

Like I said it is a societal problem. Visit any city in America and look at all of the trash. Some of those people come to the woods. When in the woods they throw trash on the ground just like they do when they are in the city.

For some reason you refuse to blame those who deserve and instead call a philosophy failed and impossible to implement.

I am confused as to why you keep blaming LNT and not the people that leave the trash.
It's simple. When the message was simple, most people followed the message. Now the message is complicated. And the evidence over the decades makes it clear that most people don't take the time to understand that Leave No Trace doesn't mean leave no trace, which is impossible, but leave as little trace as possible.

Preach Leave no trace as much as you wish. You will have to change the nature of the human race to make it work for other than a tiny minority.

shelb
05-12-2011, 22:36
As a Scouter, and hiker, I try to practice and teach LNT principles. However, I just can't bring myself to pack out TP (sorry). I do bury it (which way too many people do not do!!). I also stress the need to pick up after the slobs who leave garbage behind. Last summer, my 12 year old ended up picking up over 7 extra pounds of trash (one of those mini string backpacks -full) on a 50 mile hike of the North Country Trail along Michigan's Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. We will see what we come up with this year on our SNP hike.

bfayer
05-13-2011, 06:10
Flawed analogy. "Raw materials" are passive, totally subject to the craftsman or manufacturer working with them. As a card-carrying "people" myself, I take offense to being called "raw material." I won't go on an extended rant about social engineering, "Building Socialism," "The New Soviet Man," or other ideological systems that treated people as raw materials in the service of some grand idea, but that kind of thinking not only doesn't work, but it also generates massive cruelty and injustice.

And, aside from the "raw material" idea, though as a society we can't completely control people, we CAN influence each other. Plenty of offensive practices that were commonplace in my youth are rare, or considered unacceptable, today.

Wow 58 and you get offended that easy. Every rule, law or taught behavior is social engineering. The analogy did not say to treat people like raw materials. It said use the right tool for the job. If our goal is to change peoples behavior in regards to not trashing the trail, we need to use a tool that will get the job done.

The typical response to this type of thing is to make rules and laws that are progressively more restrictive and repressive because the previous rule or law failed to have the desired effect. The ultimate end result is to ban people from the trail.

Maybe the previous rule or law did not work because it was the wrong rule or law? In that case maybe we need to reevaluate why it didn't work, and come up with a different way to affect behavior.

Telling people to pack out used TP is the wrong tool. Once we can get people to pack out their pop cans and candy wrappers, we can start working on the TP.

skooch
05-13-2011, 06:42
Very good points. And I'd rather refer to LNT as an ethic. People will buck rules. Especially one like burying toilet paper because it seems so ridiculous and therefore people will lable all LNT as ridiculous. An ethic gets respect. We can influence each other and change wrong thinking.

moshi
05-13-2011, 14:32
It's simple. When the message was simple, most people followed the message. Now the message is complicated. And the evidence over the decades makes it clear that most people don't take the time to understand that Leave No Trace doesn't mean leave no trace, which is impossible, but leave as little trace as possible.

Preach Leave no trace as much as you wish. You will have to change the nature of the human race to make it work for other than a tiny minority.

The message is pretty simple. LNT.

If someone cannot differentiate b/w footprints and broken twigs, or empty tuna cans and snickers wrappers; they have much deeper problems and probably should not be going into the woods b/c they will most likely get lost.

You continue to make my point, but you are unable to see it. If people are unable to understand LNT b/c of footprints ,as you said, then it is a societal problem. It is shocking to think that a country that has produced so many great inventors and thinkers cannot now produce a people who are able to understand LNT b/c of footprints they leave when hiking. No wonder we are slipping in every educational category/

Most people who leave trash in the woods probably do not spend much time thinking about the meaning of LNT, carry in - carry out, or anything other than themselves. They are most likely just trashy people who litter at home and continue their behavior while traveling.

You do not have to change the entire human race, you just need to convince the people who travel into the woods to not leave trash behind.

I do not preach. I act.


Using your logic carry in - carry out is impossible to achieve and far more perplexing than LNT.

WingedMonkey
05-13-2011, 16:42
What about them bears on Blood Mountain??????

Cool AT Breeze
05-13-2011, 17:02
They live there.

WingedMonkey
05-13-2011, 17:06
They live there.

Ok I thought I misunderstood the thread and the fact that camping is closed...but only 2 more days. For now ant way.

WingedMonkey
05-13-2011, 17:06
Or any way if you don't like ants.

scope
05-13-2011, 17:14
What about them ants on Blood Mt???????

Skidsteer
05-13-2011, 18:10
What about them bears on Blood Mountain??????

They have to carry out their own toilet paper as well.

Who wants to tell them?

WingedMonkey
05-13-2011, 18:35
They have to carry out their own toilet paper as well.

Who wants to tell them?

That must be why my closest bear encounters have been while sitting on the pot.

weary
05-13-2011, 23:10
....Using your logic carry in - carry out is impossible to achieve and far more perplexing than LNT.
No it isn't.

moshi
05-15-2011, 10:27
No it isn't.

Yes, it is.

max patch
05-15-2011, 10:33
Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Razor
05-15-2011, 10:51
In any event the area is back open and let us hope that the bears have established a new routine. also that they are moving in a diferent pattern so that more serious options are not explored!

moshi
05-16-2011, 10:42
No, it isn't.


No it isn't.


You two are no better than the rubes who cannot distinguish b/w leaving footprints and leaving garbage.

How long have you twol been married or are you just dating?

Carry in - carry out is an impossible pipe dream.

weary
05-16-2011, 12:42
Carry in - carry out is an impossible pipe dream.
But somehow I manage to do it every time I go camping or backpacking, or even just for a walk in the woods. I have yet to succeed in leaving no trace when camping or backpacking, or even just walking.

It's really quite simple. Just carry a simple plastic bag such as most stores provide whenever one buys something. Place whatever you carry that is not consumed while visiting wild places, and carry it back out with you. If it's a paper product I burn it in my kitchen wood-burning stove. If it's metal, or plastic I take it to a recycling center so that it can be reused.

By shopping carefully, and avoiding excessive plastic wrappers, and being diligent about Carry In, Carry Out, i find that almost nothing leaves my household that needs to be taken to a land fill for burial. When I first moved to this town 48 years ago, a guy stopped by and offered to take my trash to what was then the town's open dump.

Even then, I hired him to do so only every other week. The same guy still stops every other week. But I have to struggle to find stuff for him to take. Virtually all the waste that my wife and I generate is recycled these days. I should just cancel the service. But it's a one-man business, the owner of which is almost as old as I am, and a bit less healthy. Being a bit sentimental, I can't bring myself to fire him at this stage of our lives, so I scrunge around every other Wednesday to provide him with a tiny bag of trash, which he dutifully takes to the town's transfer station for eventual burial.

max patch
05-16-2011, 13:12
Y

Carry in - carry out is an impossible pipe dream.

Moshi, I think you should start out at the beginner site and come back when you learn a few things.

www.hikinghq.net

You will fit in very well there.

moshi
05-16-2011, 13:20
It's really quite simple.

Yes, quite simple indeed.

How do you handle your bodily waste? Do you carry that out. B/c you are surely carrying that in with you.

darkage
05-16-2011, 13:28
Moshi, I think you should start out at the beginner site and come back when you learn a few things.

www.hikinghq.net (http://www.hikinghq.net)

You will fit in very well there.

muhahahaha, that is all.

moshi
05-16-2011, 13:34
Moshi, I think you should start out at the beginner site and come back when you learn a few things.

www.hikinghq.net

You will fit in very well there.

Great site!

Thanks for the link.

moshi
05-16-2011, 13:37
muhahahaha, that is all.

Yeah, he really got me there. That was a good one. Ol' max patch is on top of things today.

Do you know which one was max in that picture?

CowHead
05-16-2011, 13:40
Let's organize a bear hunt so there will be plenty of bear meat for Trail Days. Bear BBQ, anyone?

i got a great recipe for hot bear sausage

weary
05-16-2011, 21:01
Yes, quite simple indeed.

How do you handle your bodily waste? Do you carry that out. B/c you are surely carrying that in with you.
Nay. Moshi. We deposit all our bodily waste before leaving home. All that is generated on the trail is deposited in areas where it will enhance natural flora and fauna.

But carry it out if you wish. But please don't send it to a sewage treatment plant. Us genuine environmentalists always pull out wastes that won't flush and deposit them at places with special memories. The tree that we planted in memory of my father-in-law really flourished once i fertilized it with a natural addition.

nufsaid
05-16-2011, 21:18
You two are no better than the rubes who cannot distinguish b/w leaving footprints and leaving garbage.

How long have you twol been married or are you just dating?

Carry in - carry out is an impossible pipe dream.


I have always practiced carry in - carry out (with the exception of turds, which should be well covered). LNT is an impossible pipe dream in my opinion. And when a person must resort to personal attacks it usually means they cannot support their argument with facts and logic.

moshi
05-17-2011, 09:42
LNT is an impossible pipe dream in my opinion.

The footprints v. garbage thing confuses you as well?


And when a person must resort to personal attacks it usually means they cannot support their argument with facts and logic.

Clearly that is the case here.


Sorry for comprehending.

moshi
05-17-2011, 09:59
Nay. Moshi. We deposit all our bodily waste before leaving home. All that is generated on the trail is deposited in areas where it will enhance natural flora and fauna.

I assume you in your infinite "genuine environmentalist" wisdom will be the one one who determines where you waste will be the most beneficial to the flora and fauna of the area.

People will say anything to justify their actions and attempt to prove that their way/opinion is correct.

Keep lying to yourself that you are practicing carry in - carry out.

It is clearly very important to feel that you are correct.

Perhaps you are upset that you are unable to leave no trace, so you attempt to compensate for your shortcomings by telling others how uninformed and wrong they are in their beliefs and how flawed they are in their thinking.


Sorry for no trace leaving.

weary
05-17-2011, 14:49
I assume you in your infinite "genuine environmentalist" wisdom will be the one one who determines where you waste will be the most beneficial to the flora and fauna of the area.

People will say anything to justify their actions and attempt to prove that their way/opinion is correct.

Keep lying to yourself that you are practicing carry in - carry out.

It is clearly very important to feel that you are correct.

Perhaps you are upset that you are unable to leave no trace, so you attempt to compensate for your shortcomings by telling others how uninformed and wrong they are in their beliefs and how flawed they are in their thinking.


Sorry for no trace leaving.
Moshi. This would be a more interesting discussion if you would take the time to learn what LNT really says about toilet paper.

This is what the LNT web site says: "Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

emerald
05-17-2011, 15:09
LNT is an impossible pipe dream in my opinion.

A life without sin may be impossible too, but those who attempt to live such a life ordinarily come closer to the ideal than those who do not.

Bare Bear
05-17-2011, 15:17
I have punched a few sharks while spearfishing over the years...I also saw a few that could swallow me whole and got the heck out of the water as fast as I could.

darkage
05-17-2011, 15:26
I have punched a few sharks while spearfishing over the years...I also saw a few that could swallow me whole and got the heck out of the water as fast as I could.

They do make for a great snack.

moshi
05-17-2011, 15:26
Moshi. This would be a more interesting discussion if you would take the time to learn what LNT really says about toilet paper.

This is what the LNT web site says: "Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The issue here is not that I know how to properly dispose of and manage waste and garbage while hiking.

The issue is that you and apparently many others (according to the "decades of data" that you alluded to but did not cite) are confused b/c they leave footprints in the woods.

The fact is that you do not carry out everything that you carry in on a hiking trip as you claim. Your admission of leaving feces behind is proof of this.

I am sure it must be difficult to realize that you have been lying to yourself and apparently many others for some time now.

Just accept it, deal with it, and move on from it.

Carrying that bag of lies along with your ego must really slow you down when hiking, or perhaps you are to entranced by the footprints you leave to even notice.

LoneRidgeRunner
05-17-2011, 15:34
The fact is that you do not carry out everything that you carry in on a hiking trip as you claim. Your admission of leaving feces behind is proof of this.



If you have been in the woods for several days...The feces you just deposited in the cat hole was NOT carried in with you. That was generated from food you ate on the trail..gotcha!!:D

TIDE-HSV
05-17-2011, 19:48
If you have been in the woods for several days...The feces you just deposited in the cat hole was NOT carried in with you. That was generated from food you ate on the trail..gotcha!!:D

Where do the A-holes come from? There's one or two new every year, or maybe it's just a name change...

max patch
05-17-2011, 20:11
I am sure it must be difficult to realize that you have been lying to yourself and apparently many others for some time now.

Just accept it, deal with it, and move on from it.

Carrying that bag of lies along with your ego must really slow you down when hiking, or perhaps you are to entranced by the footprints you leave to even notice.

Weary has done more for the AT by accident than probably everyone else here has done on purpose.

Did you know he is one of a handful of people who have earned an honorary lifetime membership for his efforts from the ATC?

Nothing wrong with a debate with differing opinions, but when you trot out the personal insults thats a refection on you, not him. He's earned the right not to be insulted.

Red Hat
05-17-2011, 21:07
by the way, the area in question is open to camping again now... bears are still there, just fewer hikers, and hopefully the ones who come through now will know what to do