View Full Version : Thinking about starting a shuttling service
A couple of weeks ago I picked up the guy from this thread and his friend-
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47668&highlight=shuttle+pine+grove+furnace
It went well other than his plane being delayed by an hour and I had a good time talking with them. Anyway, it got me thinking about doing this more and the pitfalls that go along with it. I work 3rd shift so I'd have a good chance of being available during the day all week.
I live about a half hour from the Doyle. Is that too far? I live about 3 minutes from the Harrisburg Intl. Airport. Basically, I have no idea what it takes to be a good shuttleman(or whatever you call it) and I'm looking for some of the experienced people to chime in.
So-
What is a fair rate to charge?
Would I be poaching someone else's territory? Should I care?
Any bad experiences?
What other considerations are there?
bloodmountainman
04-08-2009, 05:38
Do this at your convience. Do it because you enjoy it and want to meet new people and possibly make some new friends. Once you try to make a "job" out of this service it will sour over time. The pitfalls will become many.
I have moved people on and off the trail and have never set a rate to charge. Hikers are grateful (mostly) for the help and nine times out of ten, they will pay a fair amount for your troubles. Sometimes you get burned, but in my experience, it is not often.
Dances with Mice
04-08-2009, 06:43
Call your insurance company and tell them you're considering hauling paying passengers in your vehicle. Then make your decision.
YeOldeBackpacker
04-08-2009, 07:30
Don't forget your Dept of Revenue license in PA. you are now running a Business in PA. and will be taxed for it.
Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 07:32
So-
What is a fair rate to charge?
Would I be poaching someone else's territory? Should I care?
Any bad experiences?
What other considerations are there?
at least $1 per mile
"territory"? no. you shouldn't care
the only bad experiences i've had are with the thru-hiker types. they're cheapskates and are rarely ready to go at the agreed upon time
bloodmountainman
04-08-2009, 07:35
Call your insurance company and tell them you're considering hauling paying passengers in your vehicle. Then make your decision.
Just one of the many pit-falls. This is a biggie!
Call your insurance company and tell them you're considering hauling paying passengers in your vehicle. Then make your decision.
Good call. I never even thought of that.
Don't forget your Dept of Revenue license in PA. you are now running a Business in PA. and will be taxed for it.
I'll tell you when I'm running a business:cool:
Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 08:57
Good call. I never even thought of that.
here goes any $$ you'll make
Don't forget PUC registration. They've been clamping down on the folks who drive the Amish around. http://www.puc.state.pa.us/transport/motor/motor_index.aspx
And further rain on the parade, I'd bet HIA wants a cut too if you pick up directly - the cops there are so bored they'd surely notice the same car coming around time and again. Maybe cut a deal with Cramer's if they're still in business by the time all this legalese gets figured out.
Good call. I never even thought of that.I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you won't like what the insurance company quotes you. From there, it all boils down to how much of a risk you think you are taking on.
McKeever
04-08-2009, 11:03
at least $1 per mile
"territory"? no. you shouldn't care
the only bad experiences I've had are with the thru-hiker types. they're cheapskates and are rarely ready to go at the agreed upon time
Do you think $1 is the average rate per loaded mile (hikers on-board) or for round trip mileage too? For example, 30 miles to the trail head is a 60 mile trip for the service provider. Should the provider charge $30 or $60? Is a flat fee customary or per person fee? My wife and I are doing a lot of sections this year and would like to know what to expect. I hope my questions help with the original post too for setting expectations for fees.
Ok........... scratch that idea. What a pain in the ass.
Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 13:20
Ok........... scratch that idea. What a pain in the ass.
just say it's a donation.
Ox97GaMe
04-08-2009, 13:57
Another thing to consider is any licenses/permits you might be required to get if you are going into a National Forest or National Park trailhead.
Also check about any rules even if you are doing a 'donation' type shuttle. If you print up fliers, post in the AT publications, or make it known that you are 'available for service', that may count as 'being in business'. If you arent doing this sort of advertising, then you will find yourself hanging out at trail heads and hoping that hikers are willing to pay you to drive them around from there.
bigcranky
04-08-2009, 14:07
The final call will be your insurance company. For Hire rates are very expensive. And if you are doing it "for donation" and you have an accident, do you really expect your customer to lie to the insurance investigator to save your butt?
The final call will be your insurance company. For Hire rates are very expensive. And if you are doing it "for donation" and you have an accident, do you really expect your customer to lie to the insurance investigator to save your butt?
Yes.
I really do wish someone would take this bull by the horns in the Harrisburg area and offer a recognized service. It's the #1 question to the SATC website and pretty high among the real queries posted to WB too. :D
(Just in case folks are wondering what answer I give, it's either "look at the shuttle list on the ATC website" or "call the Doyle", not necessarily in that order.)
Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 14:44
The final call will be your insurance company. For Hire rates are very expensive. And if you are doing it "for donation" and you have an accident, do you really expect your customer to lie to the insurance investigator to save your butt?
so if kincora catches fire and people die the owner is not responsible cuz it's donation only? and not up to fire codes?
Cabin Fever
04-08-2009, 15:05
so if kincora catches fire and people die the owner is not responsible cuz it's donation only? and not up to fire codes?
It's probably the thru hikers that started the fire to begin with.
Jack Tarlin
04-08-2009, 15:05
Gee, what a nice thing to say, Wolf.
Please tell us specifically which laws Kincora is breaking, Wolf, since you seem to be an expert on such things. You a fireman? A health inspector? A licnsed electrician? No? So tell us where the violations are.
And remember that laws that apply to motels, inns, etc. don't necessarily apply to private residences where people voluntarily elect to visit or stay.
Or are you a lawyer, too?
In the meantime, Wolf, thanks for the nice comment about one of the most beloved places on the Trail.
Wolf, the consistent negativism evident in so many of your posts isn't enlightening or educational.
Instead, it's sort of sad.
bigcranky
04-08-2009, 19:43
so if kincora catches fire and people die the owner is not responsible cuz it's donation only? and not up to fire codes?
Huh? No, just the opposite. My example is meant to illustrate that a shuttle driver who has an accident in which his client is injured can't expect his insurance company to cover him (or her) if he doesn't have the proper for-hire insurance. Which is expensive. The driver is responsible, and personal auto insurance won't cover it.
Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 20:37
Gee, what a nice thing to say, Wolf.
Please tell us specifically which laws Kincora is breaking, Wolf, since you seem to be an expert on such things. You a fireman? A health inspector? A licnsed electrician? No? So tell us where the violations are.
And remember that laws that apply to motels, inns, etc. don't necessarily apply to private residences where people voluntarily elect to visit or stay.
Or are you a lawyer, too?
In the meantime, Wolf, thanks for the nice comment about one of the most beloved places on the Trail.
Wolf, the consistent negativism evident in so many of your posts isn't enlightening or educational.
Instead, it's sort of sad.
oh shut up :rolleyes:
Lone Wolf
04-08-2009, 20:40
Huh? No, just the opposite. My example is meant to illustrate that a shuttle driver who has an accident in which his client is injured can't expect his insurance company to cover him (or her) if he doesn't have the proper for-hire insurance. Which is expensive. The driver is responsible, and personal auto insurance won't cover it.
i'm saying some hostels like kincora and "the place" don't CHARGE a fee cuz they'd have to get certain licenses and permits. asking for a DONATION gets you out of that
berninbush
04-08-2009, 21:35
I don't think the passengers would be lying in case of an accident. They can say, truthfully, that the driver is giving them a ride because he/ she has an affection for hikers and volunteers to help them out. That is the truth as long as there's no set rate for the service and payment is voluntary. The driver would just be trusting to the goodness of the hikers to give a fair donation to cover costs.
Personal auto insurance should cover volunteer activities.
I don't think the passengers would be lying in case of an accident. They can say, truthfully, that the driver is giving them a ride because he/ she has an affection for hikers and volunteers to help them out. That is the truth as long as there's no set rate for the service and payment is voluntary. The driver would just be trusting to the goodness of the hikers to give a fair donation to cover costs.
Personal auto insurance should cover volunteer activities.
Sounds reasonable. I'd keep in mind that one's insurance coverage for riders in the car ought to be pretty good if one is going to have others in the car on a regular basis. If you have an accident that is your fault with a passenger in the car and only have minimal coverage, you could have a life-long burden on your hands.
Out of curiosity, I put a call in with my insurance agent about pricing. Right now I pay $39.00 a month. Can't wait to see what it will skyrocket to...
Any wagers?
Out of curiosity, I put a call in with my insurance agent about pricing. Right now I pay $39.00 a month. Can't wait to see what it will skyrocket to...
Any wagers?
My only question is whether you would take in enough shuttling money to pay the insurance, or whether you'd have to pull money from your general fund to do supplement.
I don't think the passengers would be lying in case of an accident. They can say, truthfully, that the driver is giving them a ride because he/ she has an affection for hikers and volunteers to help them out. That is the truth as long as there's no set rate for the service and payment is voluntary. The driver would just be trusting to the goodness of the hikers to give a fair donation to cover costs.
Personal auto insurance should cover volunteer activities.
Unfortunately, that's not usually the way it works, even in situations where you genuinely are doing something gratis and there's not even an expectation of payment.
Do you think $1 is the average rate per loaded mile (hikers on-board) or for round trip mileage too? For example, 30 miles to the trail head is a 60 mile trip for the service provider. Should the provider charge $30 or $60? Is a flat fee customary or per person fee? My wife and I are doing a lot of sections this year and would like to know what to expect. I hope my questions help with the original post too for setting expectations for fees.
I am interested in this question as well. Can anyone clarify??
Old Grouse
04-10-2009, 18:42
There's another possible consideration. If you are driving for money, your state may require you to have a public service license or whatever they call a taxi driver's license. Typically, you'd be required to undergo a background check and maybe jump thru some other hoops.
I am interested in this question as well. Can anyone clarify??
Should be a flat rate with a per person charge and a minimum trip charge. If the flat rate is $30 and the per person charge is $10, and you only have 2 riders, you will pay the $30 minimum, or $15 each person. To get the $10 per person charge you would need three riders. Even with 5 or 6 riders, you may have to pay the $10 per person charge. Depends on the shuttle service. It pays to try and organize a group. Negotiating the price for a group is best done when the driver arrives, just make sure you know what kind of vehical is being sent and how many hikers it will hold.
You can call a few days, weeks or even months ahead of time and get a quote, with a name attached to it. You amy get a lower price if the service thinks you are shopping around.
The best way to go is almost always from a hostel, motel, or outfitter.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you won't like what the insurance company quotes you. From there, it all boils down to how much of a risk you think you are taking on.
Most likely, Zoidfu's current "consumer" insurance underwriter (Nationwide, Allstate, etc.) doesn't even offer the kind of insurance he needs. The agent, however, may be able to refer him to a commercial provider. The type that specializes in taxis, limos, etc. It ain't cheap.
Even if you call it a donation, you're still operating a "for hire" business in the eyes of most state regulatory agencies.
If an accident occurs, and injuries result to your passengers or others in the other vehicle(s), and you only have "consumer" liability insurance--your insurer will send investigators to try to justify the claim. Or just as likely, to try to justify not paying the claim. Once the investigator finds out the passengers in your vehicle were all basically strangers to you before getting in your car--pretty easy to ascertain--a big red flag goes up.
They will eventually get someone to be the canary to sing about the money they agreed to pay you. That's what they do. Then your insurer will deny the claim because consumer-grade auto insurance specifically excludes for-hire scenarios, and cancel your policy. The injured will have no recourse but to sue you directly to collect $$$ to pay their medical bills. Say goodbye to many of your assets if you lose.
If you have no assets worth attaching, you may be judgement-proof and may not be sued. But think of the poor folks who were your passengers, or in the other vehicle(s), who will now be on the hook for all of their medical expenses and much more. Not something I'd want on my conscience.
Should be a flat rate with a per person charge and a minimum trip charge. If the flat rate is $30 and the per person charge is $10, and you only have 2 riders, you will pay the $30 minimum, or $15 each person. To get the $10 per person charge you would need three riders. Even with 5 or 6 riders, you may have to pay the $10 per person charge. Depends on the shuttle service. It pays to try and organize a group. Negotiating the price for a group is best done when the driver arrives, just make sure you know what kind of vehical is being sent and how many hikers it will hold.
You can call a few days, weeks or even months ahead of time and get a quote, with a name attached to it. You amy get a lower price if the service thinks you are shopping around.
The best way to go is almost always from a hostel, motel, or outfitter.
From the shuttler's POV, it costs about the same to shuttle four hikers as it does to shuttle one hiker. There really is no justification to charge extra per person (up to the safe capacity of a vehicle). It is also not justified IMHO for a hiker to expect a cheaper rate just because he's being shuttled solo.
I agree--if hikers do their best to organize a group to share a ride, it should wind up being cheaper per person.
Do you think $1 is the average rate per loaded mile (hikers on-board) or for round trip mileage too? For example, 30 miles to the trail head is a 60 mile trip for the service provider. Should the provider charge $30 or $60? Is a flat fee customary or per person fee? My wife and I are doing a lot of sections this year and would like to know what to expect. I hope my questions help with the original post too for setting expectations for fees.
If $1 per mile is the average rate, then the cost in the above example should be $60 IMHO. Per vehicle-ride, not per person. Several hikers for the same price as one hiker.
But more typical is a scenario like this: It's 30 miles to the trailhead to meet the passengers, then 50 miles to where they want to be dropped off, then say 50 miles to drive back home--at $1 per mile that should be $130.
Most likely, Zoidfu's current "consumer" insurance underwriter (Nationwide, Allstate, etc.) doesn't even offer the kind of insurance he needs. The agent, however, may be able to refer him to a commercial provider. The type that specializes in taxis, limos, etc. It ain't cheap.
Even if you call it a donation, you're still operating a "for hire" business in the eyes of most state regulatory agencies.
If an accident occurs, and injuries result to your passengers or others in the other vehicle(s), and you only have "consumer" liability insurance--your insurer will send investigators to try to justify the claim. Or just as likely, to try to justify not paying the claim. Once the investigator finds out the passengers in your vehicle were all basically strangers to you before getting in your car--pretty easy to ascertain--a big red flag goes up.
They will eventually get someone to be the canary to sing about the money they agreed to pay you. That's what they do. Then your insurer will deny the claim because consumer-grade auto insurance specifically excludes for-hire scenarios, and cancel your policy. The injured will have no recourse but to sue you directly to collect $$$ to pay their medical bills. Say goodbye to many of your assets if you lose.
If you have no assets worth attaching, you may be judgement-proof and may not be sued. But think of the poor folks who were your passengers, or in the other vehicle(s), who will now be on the hook for all of their medical expenses and much more. Not something I'd want on my conscience.
Progressive is my provider and they said they would insure me- for $401 a month.
No thanks. I'm kind of in an oddball location as it is and I don't think I would make anywhere close to that to make it worth it.
Most likely, Zoidfu's current "consumer" insurance underwriter (Nationwide, Allstate, etc.) doesn't even offer the kind of insurance he needs. The agent, however, may be able to refer him to a commercial provider. The type that specializes in taxis, limos, etc. It ain't cheap.
Even if you call it a donation, you're still operating a "for hire" business in the eyes of most state regulatory agencies.
If an accident occurs, and injuries result to your passengers or others in the other vehicle(s), and you only have "consumer" liability insurance--your insurer will send investigators to try to justify the claim. Or just as likely, to try to justify not paying the claim. Once the investigator finds out the passengers in your vehicle were all basically strangers to you before getting in your car--pretty easy to ascertain--a big red flag goes up.
They will eventually get someone to be the canary to sing about the money they agreed to pay you. That's what they do. Then your insurer will deny the claim because consumer-grade auto insurance specifically excludes for-hire scenarios, and cancel your policy. The injured will have no recourse but to sue you directly to collect $$$ to pay their medical bills. Say goodbye to many of your assets if you lose.
If you have no assets worth attaching, you may be judgement-proof and may not be sued. But think of the poor folks who were your passengers, or in the other vehicle(s), who will now be on the hook for all of their medical expenses and much more. Not something I'd want on my conscience.
having utilized both professional and casual shuttle services (insured and non), i often wonder how insurance companies handle the issues, which i am sure varies by carrier. for professional services, do they cover what the 'professional' providers insurance doesn't, up to your carrier's policy limits? for casual providers, i always assumed your own carrier would cover you, but is this correct and what limits apply? as always, it's the lawyers who make out and everyone else loses, no doubt. :)
Progressive is my provider and they said they would insure me- for $401 a month.
No thanks. I'm kind of in an oddball location as it is and I don't think I would make anywhere close to that to make it worth it.
That is a fair quote. As a Public Carrier you need a 1.5 million dollar policy. Those guys have to put in huge hours to pay exspenses. They have to get inspected twice a year and everything has to be in top condition. Good rubber and brakes. Add state and local license and general vehical upkeep.
Here is how I regard my coverage on my vehicle:
-I get to know "hiker X" through correspondence.
-I agree to take "hiker X" from A to B after some conversations without talking about money beyond gas compensation.
-An accident occurs while transporting "hiker X".
-My insurance covers me.
The moment I begin to discuss charging a per mile fee for transport, I have most likely voided my personal insurance coverage relative to my passenger.
There are three kinds of shuttle services to expect while hiking the AT. The licensed official shuttle, the shuttles provided by hostels, motels and outfitters and the "trail angel" or "gypsy" shuttles. IMO the ones provided by the hostels, motels and outfitters are the most reliable and fairest priced.
Here is how I regard my coverage on my vehicle:
-I get to know "hiker X" through correspondence.
-I agree to take "hiker X" from A to B after some conversations without talking about money beyond gas compensation.
-An accident occurs while transporting "hiker X".
-My insurance covers me.
The moment I begin to discuss charging a per mile fee for transport, I have most likely voided my personal insurance coverage relative to my passenger.After some thought, the breakdown above is another reason why folks complaining about high shuttling costs irk the hell out of me. I'm not even a shuttle provider, yet even I can see that the riders have nothing to lose but a couple more dollars while the shuttle providers are at a much greater risk.
There are three kinds of shuttle services to expect while hiking the AT. The licensed official shuttle, the shuttles provided by hostels, motels and outfitters and the "trail angel" or "gypsy" shuttles.
<snip>
How many licensed, official, shuttles are available for use on any part of the AT that are not Taxi Cabs?
Wise Old Owl
04-11-2009, 01:18
Call your insurance company and tell them you're considering hauling paying passengers in your vehicle. Then make your decision.
Hope the Geko doesn't answer - hehehehe....:D
Lone Wolf
04-11-2009, 03:55
IMO the ones provided by the hostels, motels and outfitters are the most reliable and fairest priced.
huh? they're higher priced than than guys like me
Lone Wolf
04-11-2009, 03:55
IMO the ones provided by the hostels, motels and outfitters are the most reliable and fairest priced.
huh? they're higher priced than than guys like me
How many licensed, official, shuttles are available for use on any part of the AT that are not Taxi Cabs?
It's commom for Taxi Cab companys to have shuttle license also.
huh? they're higher priced than than guys like me
How many guys like you are out there?
Lone Wolf
04-11-2009, 06:46
lots and lots
Progressive is my provider and they said they would insure me- for $401 a month.
No thanks. I'm kind of in an oddball location as it is and I don't think I would make anywhere close to that to make it worth it.
You learn something new here everyday! I'm glad a widely known insurer will take on this kind of risk. In the past, the only underwriters I've known to write this kind of policy are obscure specialty companies that deal exclusively with taxis, limos, tour bus operators, etc. I'm glad you found out that they don't have a monopoly. If they wanted to, Progressive could change the game a bit.
For now, though, Progressive's pricing--nearly $5,000 per year (per vehicle/driver, I assume)--is in line with the specialty companies. You could do a little better if the driving records and demographics of everyone who will be insured to provide "for hire" service are immaculate.
Still, if you want to be legit/legal in most states--and protect your assets as well as your clients and the other drivers out there--this is the way to go.
Here in Virginia, the DMV is starting to crack down on what they consider to be "gypsy cabs." While the effort is centered on taxis and limos in three parts of the state (Northern VA especially airports, Richmond, and Virginia Beach), the cases are being made--with the assistance of an industry group that wants to get rid of unfair competition. By definition, this would include AT shuttlers who ignore the law and do business without DMV's strict Operating Authority certificate, which requires the high-dollar commercial insurance.
The Virginia DMV is certainly aware of the AT subculture and its reliance upon shuttlers. Mountain & Valley Shuttle Service, which shuttles in the SNP area and beyond, was forced to comply last year. Others operating so far under the radar so as to escape the DMV's notice may fare better, but that could mean de-listing oneself from the ATC's shuttle list and the various guidebooks and websites.
I believe most other states have similar requirements, but the only two states I have personal experience with are Virginia and Pennsylvania (which is as strict if not stricter than Virginia).
having utilized both professional and casual shuttle services (insured and non), i often wonder how insurance companies handle the issues, which i am sure varies by carrier. for professional services, do they cover what the 'professional' providers insurance doesn't, up to your carrier's policy limits? for casual providers, i always assumed your own carrier would cover you, but is this correct and what limits apply? as always, it's the lawyers who make out and everyone else loses, no doubt. :)
It may vary by state, but I don't think it varies by carrier within a state. All insurers within a state have to comply with the same regs.
AFAIK, there is no differentiation between a full-time service and a "casual provider." How would the state or insurer police that, anyway?
Here is how I regard my coverage on my vehicle:
-I get to know "hiker X" through correspondence.
-I agree to take "hiker X" from A to B after some conversations without talking about money beyond gas compensation.
-An accident occurs while transporting "hiker X".
-My insurance covers me.
The moment I begin to discuss charging a per mile fee for transport, I have most likely voided my personal insurance coverage relative to my passenger.
Have you run that past your insurance carrier or agent?
How many licensed, official, shuttles are available for use on any part of the AT that are not Taxi Cabs?
Only sure about Virginia. But I used a commercial shuttler near the VT/NH border once that I suspect was legit and legal. There may be one or two in Georgia/North Carolina, also.
As of now, MVSS referenced above is the only one in Virginia that is AT-centric that has jumped through all the hoops to become certified by the DMV. However, there are taxi services in places like Marion, Buena Vista, Front Royal, etc. that are listed on some AT shuttle lists and to stay in business they would have to have the same or similar DMV Operating Authority certificate plus commercial liability insurance.
To stay in the black, however, MVSS has had to expand outside the AT market to provide trips for folks to DC area airports, distant hospitals, big city shopping, providing courier services, etc. The AT market is seasonal, and while moderately lucrative a few months per year (with above-the-radar promotion both free and paid), is relatively speaking just a small niche market. The Operating Authority and insurance covers this other transit, as well.
Bilge Rat
04-11-2009, 09:50
:D I could not help myself :D
It may vary by state, but I don't think it varies by carrier within a state. All insurers within a state have to comply with the same regs.
AFAIK, there is no differentiation between a full-time service and a "casual provider." How would the state or insurer police that, anyway?
by casual provider, i was simply referring to 'drivers' who accept donations from 'passengers' rather than asking a fee up front. the driver is covered by his insurance. but who covers the passenger?
Shutterbug
04-11-2009, 12:43
Ok........... scratch that idea. What a pain in the ass.
A wise person once said, "Sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."
A wise person once said, "Sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."
that must have been before the lawyers started sucking people dry
by casual provider, i was simply referring to 'drivers' who accept donations from 'passengers' rather than asking a fee up front. the driver is covered by his insurance. but who covers the passenger?
Nobody is covered, not the driver or the passangers. The driver/owner of the vehical is in violation of his or her agreement with the insurance company. Most auto insurance is for "normal family or indiviual use". If you use your vehical to shuttle kids to Sunday School every week, you are not covered for that activity. The driver/owner will bear the burden of paying for injuries and damage.
Have you run that past your insurance carrier or agent?No I haven't, but under that scenario I am giving an acquaintance a ride with no set agreement about compensation. Same thing I do when I drive one of my co-workers to lunch. My insurance covers passengers in my car that aren't direct family members. In my giving a hiker a ride scenario there wouldn't be anything agreed upon or discussed beyond gas money until the ride was over. I think that along with my safe driving habits is enough for me. I can live with that amount of risk and it certainly isn't illegal.
Nobody is covered, not the driver or the passangers. The driver/owner of the vehical is in violation of his or her agreement with the insurance company. Most auto insurance is for "normal family or indiviual use". If you use your vehical to shuttle kids to Sunday School every week, you are not covered for that activity. The driver/owner will bear the burden of paying for injuries and damage.
what if you take turns shuttling kids to sunday school... or baseball practice?
No I haven't, but under that scenario I am giving an acquaintance a ride with no set agreement about compensation. Same thing I do when I drive one of my co-workers to lunch. My insurance covers passengers in my car that aren't direct family members. In my giving a hiker a ride scenario there wouldn't be anything agreed upon or discussed beyond gas money until the ride was over. I think that along with my safe driving habits is enough for me. I can live with that amount of risk and it certainly isn't illegal.
Sounds good to me. If an accident occurs before any money changing hands it's kind of hard to prove for hire. Also, why would a passenger say otherwise? I would think they would want to be covered in case of accident.
Sounds good to me. If an accident occurs before any money changing hands it's kind of hard to prove for hire. Also, why would a passenger say otherwise? I would think they would want to be covered in case of accident.
it might not be that easy. insurance investigators are not easily fooled, especially for him claim cases.
Nobody is covered, not the driver or the passangers. The driver/owner of the vehical is in violation of his or her agreement with the insurance company. Most auto insurance is for "normal family or indiviual use". If you use your vehical to shuttle kids to Sunday School every week, you are not covered for that activity. The driver/owner will bear the burden of paying for injuries and damage.Interesting. Sounds like I need to re-visit my insurance agreement. When me and friends go backpacking we share vehicles. From what you are saying my auto insurance won't pay for any medical cost of my passengers because I violated my agreement? Those of you in car pools to work better be paying attention.
max patch
04-11-2009, 13:49
If you believe in Murphys law you won't shuttle for money unless you have coverage.
it might not be that easy. insurance investigators are not easily fooled, especially for him claim cases.
I wouldn't know, never dealt with one. It seems to me insurance companies are reluctant to pay even if you have the correct coverage.
Interesting. Sounds like I need to re-visit my insurance agreement. When me and friends go backpacking we share vehicles. From what you are saying my auto insurance won't pay for any medical cost of my passengers because I violated my agreement? Those of you in car pools to work better be paying attention.
Thats not what I'm saying. Giving friends rides is a normal activity. Car pooling is a normal activity. Picking up class mates or team members while taking your own kids to an event or activity is normal family use. Helping out some hikers that may be in need of assistance on occasion may be considered a normal activity. The problem you may run into is that if you are listed somewhere as a shuttle the insurance company will have a case against you.
The OP was a question about starting a shuttle service. There is alot of risk involved. You can easily get strapped with a lifetime of bills if you are not properly insured.
Thats not what I'm saying. Giving friends rides is a normal activity. Car pooling is a normal activity. Picking up class mates or team members while taking your own kids to an event or activity is normal family use. Helping out some hikers that may be in need of assistance on occasion may be considered a normal activity. The problem you may run into is that if you are listed somewhere as a shuttle the insurance company will have a case against you.
The OP was a question about starting a shuttle service. There is alot of risk involved. You can easily get strapped with a lifetime of bills if you are not properly insured.
thanks for clearing that up. i was about to call bs. :eek:
thanks for clearing that up. i was about to call bs. :eek:I'm understanding his point now. I read too much into the "shuttling kids to Sunday School" line. I assume now he meant as a business, not as a fellow church member.
Tennessee Viking
04-11-2009, 14:33
I usually just pick up hikers along the trail. Or if I am at a hostel, and its busy, I will ask if its ok to lend a hand.
Generally, I don't charge, if I am heading that way.
As for territory, its free game.
You can also advertise your services at outfitters and hostels, or anywhere hikers hang out.
For prices, you need to be competitive yet be humble enough that hikers will use your service. You will have to figure out how much gas you spend per location at cost for you. Then add a little profit for you.
Some places have a minimum. Others will have set price for distance. Others will charge extra going up forest or 4x4 roads.
I remember Johnny's quoting $35 for a shuttle to Devils Fork Gap, Sams Gap, or Spivey Gap. All about 20 minutes of Erwin.
Then LW is pretty generous with his service.
I'm understanding his point now. I read too much into the "shuttling kids to Sunday School" line. I assume now he meant as a business, not as a fellow church member.
yeah, a better example would have helped. i took my first donation last year when gas prices were high. normally, i refuse any sort of payment partly because of the insurance concern
Ya, Sunday school was not the best example. I was thinking that if the school bus or van broke down and they called upon a shuttle operator to help out....not a member of the chuch gathering up the flock for worship.
Thats not what I'm saying. Giving friends rides is a normal activity. Car pooling is a normal activity. Picking up class mates or team members while taking your own kids to an event or activity is normal family use. Helping out some hikers that may be in need of assistance on occasion may be considered a normal activity. The problem you may run into is that if you are listed somewhere as a shuttle the insurance company will have a case against you.
The OP was a question about starting a shuttle service. There is alot of risk involved. You can easily get strapped with a lifetime of bills if you are not properly insured.
It's easy enough when listed to, "call or email for details." I was listed on several pages including the ATC and I was not about to get extra insurance for a half dozen shuttles per season, paid or not.
Perhaps Zoid can use a waiver form?
Your never going to make any real money shuttling hikers. If you do it, then do it because you want to help. And yea, I would charge a fixed price and take my chances with having a accident, otherwise your going to loose money.
Panzer
No I haven't, but under that scenario I am giving an acquaintance a ride with no set agreement about compensation. Same thing I do when I drive one of my co-workers to lunch. My insurance covers passengers in my car that aren't direct family members. In my giving a hiker a ride scenario there wouldn't be anything agreed upon or discussed beyond gas money until the ride was over. I think that along with my safe driving habits is enough for me. I can live with that amount of risk and it certainly isn't illegal.
I suspect your insurer would consider that little bit of gas money a "for hire" transaction.
The only time they will find out about it is if you have a claim involving injuries to someone who paid you that gas money, or another vehicle's occupants during that same transaction. At that point, the investigators will be looking for a reason not to pay the claim. But don't take it from me, be as upfront with your scenario as you have been here and ask your insurer.
While you're asking around, you may want to find out where your state's DMV (or equivalent) stands on this same scenario.
Nobody is covered, not the driver or the passangers. The driver/owner of the vehical is in violation of his or her agreement with the insurance company. Most auto insurance is for "normal family or indiviual use". If you use your vehical to shuttle kids to Sunday School every week, you are not covered for that activity. The driver/owner will bear the burden of paying for injuries and damage.
I would have to read the fine print on an insurance contract to be sure this is the case. It may vary insurer-to-insurer. What this Sunday school scenario does not have, it seems, is a pay-for-service element. That is what we're discussing here.
Living in and around the Amish i see them using drivers daily. Guess i still believe America is home of the free. If i so desire to drive someone somewhere i'll do it. Be a cold day in ,,,when i stop living my life and worry about the lawyers.
We used to get asked to shuttle hikers to and/or from trails as part of a hiking service. The insurance to carry people in your vehicle costs a fortune, and getting special use permits from the Forest Service is a very special process!!!!:D
I don't think we ever made money on any of the shuttles that we did...but we did meet some very nice people!:sun
generoll
04-11-2009, 23:48
since I know basically nothing about this I can of course claim a high degree of expertise. Ron Haven was required by the Forest Service to purchase a $300 annual sticker for his hiker bus. Note that he does NOT charge a fee for shuttling. Since he picks up hikers on a daily basis on FS roads the local forester told him it was a business and required him to purchase a sticker.
Good Samaritan laws were passed in many states because people who stopped to help out in emergency situations were being sued by opportunistic "victims" and their willing lawyers. Depending on the good will of those you help could become a very expensive educational opportunity for anyone with attachable assets.
To my limited knowledge this point is so far just theoretical. No hostel owner or shuttle provider has yet been involved in an injury that resulted in a personal injury claim. When/if it happens it's likely to have a huge impact on services available along the trail. I'm guessing that many hostels and shuttlers operate below the radar as far as business licenses, liability insurance, and those pesky income requirements by taxing authorities. Should that ever see a significant change the cost is likely to take a huge leap upwards.
And we will have the lawyers to thank. :mad:
Living in and around the Amish i see them using drivers daily.
And the long arm of the law knows it too:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07364/845400-85.stm
since I know basically nothing about this I can of course claim a high degree of expertise. Ron Haven was required by the Forest Service to purchase a $300 annual sticker for his hiker bus. Note that he does NOT charge a fee for shuttling. Since he picks up hikers on a daily basis on FS roads the local forester told him it was a business and required him to purchase a sticker.
Good Samaritan laws were passed in many states because people who stopped to help out in emergency situations were being sued by opportunistic "victims" and their willing lawyers. Depending on the good will of those you help could become a very expensive educational opportunity for anyone with attachable assets.
To my limited knowledge this point is so far just theoretical. No hostel owner or shuttle provider has yet been involved in an injury that resulted in a personal injury claim. When/if it happens it's likely to have a huge impact on services available along the trail. I'm guessing that many hostels and shuttlers operate below the radar as far as business licenses, liability insurance, and those pesky income requirements by taxing authorities. Should that ever see a significant change the cost is likely to take a huge leap upwards.
As I understand it, hostel or motel owners who give rides for free would not be covered under either state laws requiring for-hire operating permits; nor would be violating the no-for-hire clause of their non-commercial insurance policies.
It's not that uncommon for hostels and motels to offer a free ride back to the Trail, or into town to shop. But it is also pretty common for hostel and motel owners to have a sideline shuttle business where they do charge a fee for transportation services. Those at a higher pay scale will need to figure that one out.