Sleeping with your food

[ChinMusic]

Several experienced outdoorsmen have made this clear with regards to the AT and food:


sleeping with your food is the best method

I'm beginning to become a believer.

Are there any reports of such AT hikers regretting sleeping with their food? There def seems to be issues with hanging.

[Tipi Walter]

If you want mice to run over your face and chest, sleep with your food. If you sleep in a zipped up tent with your food, expect chew holes from mice to get at your food.

This last year I had 3 encounters with mice running over my face while I was sleeping in my tent during a rainstorm with the food not inside the tent but in the vestibule and I left the tent door open. Leaving the food in the vestibule will at least protect the tent body from getting chew holes when the tent's zipped up. Had I zipped up the tent and left the food in the vestibules, they would've explored the bags and not me. They love midnight food patrols.

If it's raining or a blizzard, I put all my food bags(including the dog pack)in the tent vestibules. Otherwise, I hang em off a tree limb. Not with a rope but just off a nail or a branch.

[Valentine]

My understanding is that on the chance a hungry bear comes along he may be interested in you. Especially in Grizzly country. I have heard of mice chewing holes in bags to get to food.

[ChinMusic]

My understanding is that on the chance a hungry bear comes along he may be interested in you. Especially in Grizzly country. I have heard of mice chewing holes in bags to get to food.
Please, NOT talking about Griz Country. Stick to the AT.

[Tipi Walter]

My understanding is that on the chance a hungry bear comes along he may be interested in you. Especially in Grizzly country. I have heard of mice chewing holes in bags to get to food.

I don't know how many food bags I've had with chew holes in them. Mouse chew holes. They love the gorp and the peanuts and will chew right thru a nylon stuff sack to get at granola bars and cheese. I even woke up one morning and found one of my opened pack pockets filled with dog food from the dog pack. They must've been running some kind of midnight conveyor belt, carting single pieces of dog food like ants from one bag to another. What were they thinking? That they'd have time or a future using my pack as a long term home? Never try to understand the rodent mind.

Another time I was wearing high top jungle boots and while I was sleeping they filled the toe with hickory nuts.

[Lone Wolf]

i've tented and cowboy camped hundreds of nights and never had a mouse or bear chew thru my tent or food bag

[Gaiter]

don't be a dumbarse.... nearly all bear attacks involve food (and trouble bears)

[Lone Wolf]

don't be a dumbarse.... nearly all bear attacks involve food (and trouble bears)

i been trampin' on the AT 20+ years. ain't never been no bear attacks

[Lugnut]

Mice tend to congregate around shelers. I've never seen a mouse anyplace else. Bears are a different story.

[Blissful]

Had a squirrel chew through our food bag in a vestibule in NH. Got out in a thunderstorm and hung it.

[Captain Blue]

I have hiked 6,200 miles on the AT in the last 15 years. I sleep with my food in my tent. I have never had a problem with mice chewing through my tent or bears attacking me. I do use the food cables, poles and the boxes were available. I have seen a few times where mice have chewed through food bags even though the food was hung. But I have not seen any chew holes in tents. I am not saying it does not happen. I just have not seen it.

[DAJA]

i been trampin' on the AT 20+ years. ain't never been no bear attacks

Failing to see your logic... In my mind, your arguement would lead me to almost definitly always hang my food on the AT. If there has never been a bear attack on the AT in the last 20 yrs, the laws of probability would suggest that an attack is due! (larger bear population + human encrouchment + large number of inexperienced hikers w/food = potential for bear attack)

I nearly always hang my food using the PCT method. Have never lost food to any critter, and for peice of mind, it's well worth the small amount of effort required.

[garlic08]

If you sleep in a virgin site, where the fauna is unaccustomed to human presence, you should have no problems sleeping with your food. That's a risk you can choose to take, or not. Personally, I don't. But it is wise to hang your food very well at the shelters and at pounded campsites--you know, the places where the squirrels and chipmunks are begging.

I have seen a mouse chew through a tent to get at a food bag at a pounded campsite in Washington State. Cheeky little bugger.

[bigcranky]

If there has never been a bear attack on the AT in the last 20 yrs, the laws of probability would suggest that an attack is due!

You misunderstand probability.

A bear attack is not a random individual event like flipping a coin.

[McKeever]

I have had a bear walk right up to me while cooking on the AT at dusk. A very surreal experience. I just picked everything up and eased down the trail. Another time a bear aggressively ran out on a blow down sticking up off the ground and growled at me and was apparently a momma bear, also in the Smokey's. Another time a bear ran a big circle around me on Sawtooth ridge on the AT before Catawba. I turned a litte sideways and lowered my head slightly and only gave a few slow steps back. It was enough to show the bear I was not threatening it so it went on about it's business and I went on with my hike with an elevated heart rate. I was false charged in the SNP one morning and the bear just tuned back and walked off.

My point is I know of an account of a hikers tent ripped into on the AT in NJ a few years back and a lady was killed and eaten in the Smokey's along a water shed. Black Bears consider humans food. I think there have been enough reports and accounts to consider counter measures to make your camp bear resistant. I sleep with food most of the time, but also bear bag when in doubt. I like the new PCT method. The debate running now is about the usra bag. http://www.ursack.com/ (http://www.ursack.com/)

[Reid]

Last time I went camping in kilmer, my own dog drug the food out and ate the rice krispies. I think he's part rat anyway.

[Tipi Walter]

Mice tend to congregate around shelers. I've never seen a mouse anyplace else. Bears are a different story.

Mice tend to be more of a problem not only at shelters but at established campsites. All of my encounters have been at "pounded" campsites with no shelters in sight.


If you sleep in a virgin site, where the fauna is unaccustomed to human presence, you should have no problems sleeping with your food. That's a risk you can choose to take, or not. Personally, I don't. But it is wise to hang your food very well at the shelters and at pounded campsites--you know, the places where the squirrels and chipmunks are begging.

I have seen a mouse chew through a tent to get at a food bag at a pounded campsite in Washington State. Cheeky little bugger.

Sleeping at a "virgin" site does significantly reduce rodent patrols. Now, if you stay put at said virigin site for, let's say, 15 years, you'll have a whole colony of rodents, generations of them. Even with traps and clever eradication, they just keep on coming. Outside the scope of this thread.

I've also noticed that in the worst conditions, subzero blizzards and butt cold temps, that the mice are no where to be seen. Then you can sleep with your food, hug it close, keep some of it in your mouth like a chipmunk while you sleep, coat your body in honey and walnuts, whatever. It's too dang cold for the mammals!

[DAJA]

A bear attack is not a random individual event like flipping a coin.

So your suggesting bear attacks are pre-meditated... Damn techonolgy age, even the bears know where i'm going to camp in advance!:D

[Cookerhiker]

....Another time I was wearing high top jungle boots and while I was sleeping they filled the toe with hickory nuts.

Hey I can relate to that! Hiking through the Smokies in '04 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=84124), I awoke in Russell Field Shelter to find 2 shiny acorns in each boot.

[Tipi Walter]

Hey I can relate to that! Hiking through the Smokies in '04 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=84124), I awoke in Russell Field Shelter to find 2 shiny acorns in each boot.

Apparently rodents do not follow the dictum, "Think ye not of the morrow." This reminds me of an old radio announcer joke about one of them making a wreck of his dictum. Or the opposite. Heck, I forgot it.

[Newb]

i been trampin' on the AT 20+ years. ain't never been no bear attacks

That kid that got attacked by a bear last summer in PA had a snickers bar in his pocket..bear came into the tent to to get it and bit him in the ass.

Your advantage is that no bear would ever be desperate enough to consider you food. :D

[Lone Wolf]

Failing to see your logic... In my mind, your arguement would lead me to almost definitly always hang my food on the AT. If there has never been a bear attack on the AT in the last 20 yrs, the laws of probability would suggest that an attack is due! (larger bear population + human encrouchment + large number of inexperienced hikers w/food = potential for bear attack)

I nearly always hang my food using the PCT method. Have never lost food to any critter, and for peice of mind, it's well worth the small amount of effort required.

i don't see your logic of hanging food

[Lone Wolf]

That kid that got attacked by a bear last summer in PA had a snickers bar in his pocket..bear came into the tent to to get it and bit him in the ass.

Your advantage is that no bear would ever be desperate enough to consider you food. :D

wrong. the kid was sleeping on the ground. the bear tugged at the foot of his sleeping bag. he wasn't bitten

[Tipi Walter]

Last time I went camping in kilmer, my own dog drug the food out and ate the rice krispies. I think he's part rat anyway.

Ah, this brings up problem dog-rovers out for a free lunch. I've had stray hunting dogs come into camp and jump up and pull down my dog's food pack and eat hearty. I even had one hunting dog UNZIP my tent fly and get to the food sack while I turned my back for a minute. With such nimble claw-fingers I figured if I left him my flute for a while he'd end up playing a couple of Irish jigs.

One time in the winter of '86 I was camping in a Chouinard pyramid tipi-tent and packing up in the morning and put a whole loaf of wheat bread inside a pack pocket. A stray dog came into camp and when my back was turned grabbed the bread and ate it completely in the time it takes to write this sentence. Survival of the fittest and I came in second.

[EverydayJourneyman]

Mice! This is going to be fun. Hope they like veg beef jerky.

[kanga]

have always slept with my food bag. gear in my pack - pack is my pillow. never had a mouse/squirrel/dog/bear touch my food. go figure.

[Lugnut]

Maybe you smell like a coyote. :D

[McKeever]

Ah, this brings up problem dog-rovers out for a free lunch. I've had stray hunting dogs come into camp and jump up and pull down my dog's food pack and eat hearty. I even had one hunting dog UNZIP my tent fly and get to the food sack while I turned my back for a minute. With such nimble claw-fingers I figured if I left him my flute for a while he'd end up playing a couple of Irish jigs.

One time in the winter of '86 I was camping in a Chouinard pyramid tipi-tent and packing up in the morning and put a whole loaf of wheat bread inside a pack pocket. A stray dog came into camp and when my back was turned grabbed the bread and ate it completely in the time it takes to write this sentence. Survival of the fittest and I came in second.

A black bear in the wild looks just like a big warm fuzzy dog, surreal perception.

[DavidNH]

Me, I would not sleep with food in my tent.

Never mind bears, there are the mice. And last thing I would want is a hole chewed in my tent or tarp.

I personally, don't think a bear would come to my tent and eat into it. But I have never tested this, and I sure as heck do not want to find out by having food IN MY TENT.

at the very least.. keep your food on the ground outside your tent. You may lose your food but at least the critters wont chew INTO your tent!

DavidNH

[nufsaid]

Black Bears consider humans food. I think there have been enough reports and accounts to consider counter measures to make your camp bear resistant.

If we are food then the only solution is to hammock hang WAY up off the ground.

[russb]

You misunderstand probability.

A bear attack is not a random individual event like flipping a coin.

Even if it were a random event like flipping a coin, there is no "memory" of past events thus it matters not how many previous trials went a certain way, the probability does not change for future events.

I would argue that based on history the empirical probability of a bear attack is very low. The fact it hasn't happened (often? ever?) is evidence of the low empirical probability not evidence that "we are due", as the quoted poster said, "you misunderstand probability".

[vamelungeon]

This is an interesting topic. My bet is that more hikers have died on the Appalachian Trail from heart attacks, hypothermia, or lightning strikes than bear attacks. Probably more have died from drowning. Of course, I wouldn't want to be the guy that adds to the "killed by black bear" statistic, but it seems to me there are more probable dangers to worry about.
How are these bears LEARNING this behavior? Are there hikers stupid enough to FEED the bears, or are they just smelling the food?

[Snowleopard]

When a bear learns to associate food and humans, the usual result is that the bear is killed. Bears near the AT have probably tasted human food. If you keep your food in your tent/tarp/hammock, a bear will smell it. You are teaching the bear that a tent/tarp/hammock is a potential source of food. What the bear will do with this knowledge is unpredictable.

It is rare, but black bear do predate on humans:
http://www.algonquin-eco-watch.com/blackbear.htm

As a result of five human deaths inflicted by two large adult male black bears (Ursus americanus) in Algonquin Park, Ontario, a long-term study is being conducted to examine certain aspects of bears anatomy, physiology and behaviour which might lead toward a better understanding of such attacks. While it is extremely unusual to be attacked by a black bear, most such instances across North America ( 96.6%, n = 29) involve adult males in excess of 120kg body weight. Evidence at Algonquin Park kill sites indicated that the attacks were predatory in nature.

Back country bears that normally avoid human contact become quite tolerant of human presence at dump sites (food sources) that they frequent during the non-breeding period. The presence of food at back country campsites however, may trigger unpredictable responses toward humans by these same bears.

I know of one case where a Mass. State Wildlife researcher appeared to be stalked (not attacked) by a black bear that he was trailing -- it doubled back on his trail. Maybe the bear was just curious, but this very knowledgeable person was a bit spooked.

At the other extreme, a bear was living underneath the front porch of a family in Mass. and they didn't even know it was there until the state wildlife people told them.

My guess is that bear canisters will be required on parts of the AT before long. Canisters are required in parts of the Adirondacks now. When I first hiked a piece of the AT in the 60's bear were unheard of in Mass., but now they are common.

[Snowleopard]

I agree that black bear attacks are very rare. But, the killing of 'problem' bears is common. They are opportunistic. If they occasionally get food from hikers, hiker food becomes part of their repertoire of food gathering.

[saimyoji]

So your suggesting bear attacks are pre-meditated... Damn techonolgy age, even the bears know where i'm going to camp in advance!:D

you're trying to be funny, but it just shows your ignorance, of bear behavior as well as prob/stats.

oh yeah....:D

[Reid]

I don't think anyone's saying that bears are to be taken lightly, and if you get killed by a bear I am preety sure it was just your time to go. And while I'm thinking about it, bear meat is nasty! I enjoy wild game dinners, quail, alligator, rabbit, maybe even some elk, but I'll never throw bear up in the dungeon again. Too oily and tough.

[Mags]

Are there any reports of such AT hikers regretting sleeping with their food? There def seems to be issues with hanging.

I've never regretted sleeping with my food... I rarely hang food unless I am in griz territory (never happens on the AT ;) ) OR in an obviously well used and wooded campsite. Not because of bears, but because of critters.

I have regretted sleeping with... Well, this is a family forum. I'll leave out those details...

[DAJA]

you're trying to be funny, but it just shows your ignorance, of bear behavior as well as prob/stats.

oh yeah....:D

Really? Cause the first two didn't make it clear enough.

PCT Method. Why chance it?

[ChinMusic]

That kid that got attacked by a bear last summer in PA had a snickers bar in his pocket..bear came into the tent to to get it and bit him in the ass.

It is stories like this that muddy the waters. Things get exaggerated until many think it is the truth.

When the truth is as follows:


wrong. the kid was sleeping on the ground. the bear tugged at the foot of his sleeping bag. he wasn't bitten

It is examples like this that make me wonder what other "stories" are exaggerated.

[rickb]

If you have a carbide tipped pole you can jab the bear in the nose with it if she starts chewing on your foot.

[Pedaling Fool]

I know it's a possibility that a bear will try to get my food from my tent; I always have something ready to poke him in the eye.

[hootyhoo]

Eat all your food before you go to sleep and then regurgitate it into your food bag in the morning. The bears, skunks and mice will never figure that one out.

I would not sleep with my food.

[Big Dawg]

I sleep w/ my food,,, & have never had a problem.

[Chip]

During a section hike in GA 2000 we met up with two other hikers headed north that had to put up with a hungry bear at Low Gap shelter the night before. They arrived late that night around 11 pm (they would hike late into the evening using head lamps). They decided to keep their food with them in the shelter instead of using the bear cables. The had to keep the bear out by making loud noise and waving their hiking poles at the bear. No sleep that night ! :D

[Alaskanhkr23]

I've lived smack dab in the middle of grizzly country,and black bear country,I've woken to bears pawing at my door and have came home to a black bear scratching the Blank outta my door and i live 30 miles away from fairbanks,well did-i do have pics of my cabin to prove..there is no way im going to sleep with food next to me in bear country

[Alaskanhkr23]

i've found that,bears get used to anything you though at them except a bullet

[nufsaid]

If you have a carbide tipped pole you can jab the bear in the nose with it if she starts chewing on your foot.

Don't be sexist.

[Alaskanhkr23]

bears bears bear bears

[TrippinBTM]

I've slept with my food (no, not that way, you sicko!). In fact, by the time I got into the North, I guess the second half of the trail or so, I, along with everyone else I was hiking with, got real lazy about hanging food. The most I'd do is "mouse bag" at shelters. If I was tenting, I always slept with it. No problems for me, even in parts of the South, like VA, where I'd do it occasionally.

Now. What is the PCT method of hanging food?

[zoidfu]

I never hang my food unless it's required by law. Haven't even had the pleasure of seeing a bear yet, much less been bothered by one.

Never had any mice problems with my food either. They've gone after my tp twice though.

[Alligator]

I had a mouse get into my food bag one of the times I was lazy about hanging my food. This was with the food bag right next to me overnight. I tarp camp though, so it was an easier score. If you are in a tent, the pesky little visitors are easier to keep out, though once a mouse slipped through the open door once in the winter.

Had a snowshoe hare go right into my vestibule but all it got was my camp towel and a bite into my soap container. This was in broad daylight.

Never had a bear come into camp that I've seen on the AT, but we did have a bear snuffle our tent in Glacier during the night. We had everything scented hung in the food bags.

I've taken to using the PCT method.

[JAK]

Several experienced outdoorsmen have made this clear with regards to the AT and food:



I'm beginning to become a believer.

Are there any reports of such AT hikers regretting sleeping with their food? There def seems to be issues with hanging.I keep the smells down but sleep with my food in my pack next to my bivy when I am hiking alone without my young daughter, but when I am with her we use a tent and hang the food away from the tent. I think in the East it is sufficient to focus on child safety first and foremost, and second on not teasing the heck out of bears with food smells. We should really respect these animals because they do a pretty good job of not bothering us even though they could rip the **** out of us and our children if they really wanted to, but they don't.

[bulldog49]

i've tented and cowboy camped hundreds of nights and never had a mouse or bear chew thru my tent or food bag


Yep, me neither. I always keep my food inside my tent and never had anything attempt to chew into it.

[Mr HaHa]

A bit off topic maybe but if you wander into Harrisburg Pa. you can see on display at the game commission headquarters the second larget black bear skull ever recorded. The bear was poached in Lycoming Co Pa. Had it been shot legally it would be the second largest ever recorded by Boone and Crockett. but Pennsylvania's heaviest bear came from Dingman Township Pike Co Pa. An 864 lb male. Dingman township lies just north and west of the AT. Just across the river In New Jersey very large black bears are becoming much more common. Many people hiking this section of the trail might view it as a rather pedestrian section but in reality they are hiking through an area that contains some of the very largest black bears in north america! Another distinction that makes the AT the great trail that it is. As for sleeping with your food or hanging it. I say whatever gets you through the night.

[Jim Adams]

I have spent alot of nights in bear country...sometimes I hang my food...sometimes I sleep with it...sometimes I seal it and just leave it in the middle of camp, but I have never had a bear problem. BTW, the only bag that I have had chewed through was a hung sealed water proof river bag and a red squirrel chewed through and took a bag of gorp.

geek

[catfishrivers]

When a bear learns to associate food and humans, the usual result is that the bear is killed. Bears near the AT have probably tasted human food. If you keep your food in your tent/tarp/hammock, a bear will smell it. You are teaching the bear that a tent/tarp/hammock is a potential source of food. What the bear will do with this knowledge is unpredictable.


Smartest thing said in this whole thread.

[ChinMusic]

But catfish....


When a bear learns to associate food and humans, the usual result is that the bear is killed. Bears near the AT have probably tasted human food. If you keep your food in your tent/tarp/hammock, a bear will smell it. You are teaching the bear that a tent/tarp/hammock is a potential source of food. What the bear will do with this knowledge is unpredictable.

That sure sounds good, and menacing, but the implied risk just does not jive with all the experienced outdoorsmen on this site that have spent their backpacking lives on the AT sleeping with their food....without penalty.

Unpredictable would be that several of them would have had issues sleeping with their food on the AT at one time or another.

Predictable would be all of them stating that the sleeping with food on the AT was uneventful.

[kanga]

and that would be because while the bear CAN SMELL THE FOOD (duh, duh, duuuhhh!) they're not stupid enough to come into the tent and get it. grizzlies, yes, and i would never sleep with food around grizzlies, but black bears are not going to come into the tent to get it unless they're rabid, in which case you're screwed anyway. sleep with your food and eat it later.

[hikergirl1120]

All I can say is the one time I brought any food "to bed" was a little bag of trail mix...I was vicousily attacked my a heard of mice and left a HUGE hole in my tent...never again...I dont even want think about the hole a bear would leave...Ha Ha

I don't think it's really worth the risk but each to there own.

[sly dog]

The one time in CT the 3 of us got to camp just at dusk and were gonna eat before setting up the tents. We pulled our food bags out and put them on a pile, not 10 seconds later a mouse caught my eye, he made a beeline right to the food bags. I lifted up a food bag and there he was, sitting where the bag was just looking up at me.

[vonfrick]

we always keep the food in the tent without incident. never seen any critters except around shelters.

[Pedaling Fool]

All I can say is the one time I brought any food "to bed" was a little bag of trail mix...I was vicousily attacked my a heard of mice and left a HUGE hole in my tent...never again...I dont even want think about the hole a bear would leave...Ha Ha

I don't think it's really worth the risk but each to there own.
Just curious, where did this happen, if near a shelter how close were you?

I've never had a mouse do that, but I've had them(or something) chew up my laces (in my vestibule). I've also had them chew thru my pack when I accidently left a small amount of food, but that was in a shelter.

FWIW, I know it's much more of a possibility of a mouse chewing thru my tent than a bear, but it would be an easy repair, so I don't worry about it.

I have seen mice climb over my tent as I was laying inside, that was ~20-30 feet from a shelter, but he never chewed their way in and I always have my food with me.

[Worldwide]

I myself sleep with my food. I use Sea to Summit dry sacks ( rubbery material) yes they are heavier than sil nylon, but I believe the "sealed" rubber material may keep the smell from escaping the dry sack. Where the sil nylon with a simple drawstring lets the food odors escape from the bag. Just my observations do what you feel comfy with.

Worldwide

[Alligator]

Deaths from bear attacks in North America are a pretty rare thing. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade) puts the number at a little more than a hundred over the last 100 or so years with roughly half of those from black bears. The list at that link in incomplete in the details, but fatal attacks in the Appalachians are even rarer. However, some of the accounts do detail black bears attacking and killing people at campsites and even entering tents and other domiciles. Given the rare occurance of attacks, it's certainly not something that should keep anyone out of the woods:eek:. Really the important thing is to keep the food away from the bears so that they don't become nuisances. Hang it, sleep with it, or even canister it, just make sure they don't get into it because it could be someone's kid that gets attacked.

[Pedaling Fool]

Deaths from bear attacks in North America are a pretty rare thing. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade) puts the number at a little more than a hundred over the last 100 or so years with roughly half of those from black bears. The list at that link in incomplete in the details, but fatal attacks in the Appalachians are even rarer. However, some of the accounts do detail black bears attacking and killing people at campsites and even entering tents and other domiciles. Given the rare occurance of attacks, it's certainly not something that should keep anyone out of the woods:eek:. Really the important thing is to keep the food away from the bears so that they don't become nuisances. Hang it, sleep with it, or even canister it, just make sure they don't get into it because it could be someone's kid that gets attacked.
I've seen that wiki article before, haven't taken an in-depth look, but one thing that seems to jump out, is that most the black bear attacks seem to happen in Canada. Just a casual observation.

[mikec]

There hasn't been anything posted yet about how you pack your food. I always place each food item in a heavy duty freezer bag, place all items in a sealed food sack, then place that sack in the bottom of my sealed pack, which I leave in my tent, at night. I also urinate around my tent at before I retire at night. This marks your tent as your territory to animals. If I'm at a shelter, I hang my food.

I used to always hang my food while section hiking the AT until, one night at the campsite north of Cherry Gap, NC, I hung my food while tenting. In the middle of the night I hear a 'plop'. Then food sack was knocked out of a tree by high wind. I brought it into my tent and nothing happened. Since then, I always sleep with my food.

[Alligator]

I've seen that wiki article before, haven't taken an in-depth look, but one thing that seems to jump out, is that most the black bear attacks seem to happen in Canada. Just a casual observation.They are rare in general, without putting too much confidence in the exact numbers. Personally, given the low numbers, I wouldn't place much stock in that small an n for an analysis where all the factors are parceled out. Any number of additional factors could be thrown in: location, number of people in party, population density (both bear and human),hunting intensity, etc. I was just pointing out three things really. The first is that black bears have killed around the same number of people as grizzlies. Second is that black bears have attacked people (for whatever reason) in places where the people were camped/lived. Third and last is that it's a rare thing to get killed by a bear, around one per year in all of North America.

My opinion is that bears probably don't use maps so I'm not going to hold out that the bear knows its on the AT:D. Just kidding there, but when the low number of attacks in the eastern US is cited, it's not known what factors influence this. Are the bears more afraid of humans? Is the bear population lower than Canada? Is food scarcity a bigger issue for bears in Canada? More terroritorial or less? It's hard to say:-?.

[ChinMusic]

I've seen that wiki article before, haven't taken an in-depth look, but one thing that seems to jump out, is that most the black bear attacks seem to happen in Canada. Just a casual observation.
I can understand this. I go to northern (VERY remote) Manitoba often and consider those black bears differently. They have very limited contact with humans and may think of us as any other animal. They are MUCH more likely to consider us food. I put them in a category closer to griz.

I do not look at black bears on the AT in this way and the statistics seem to "bear" that out.

[McKeever]

I'm afraid that there will be camping restrictions on where you can camp to use bear boxes and cables. Take the JMT for example, don't want to ever see that here. Now the solution seams to be sleep with your food for the following reason:

Black Bears are predatory towards humans. The scent of a human as a food source may very well be more appealing to a bear than a food bag with processed food. Since they are rarely break into shelters or actually attack, you should sleep with your food except where bear cables are provided in NP's. This is extreme logic, but it may very well be the acceptable solution and move towards an official policy for the AT only.

[rickb]

To those intent on sleeping with your food, wouldn't hanging your bag a few feet from the door of your tent and a couple feet off the ground offer all of the same benefits?

With less of a potential down side?

BTW, the biggest reason sleeping with your food works is the utter lack of bears coming within 100 feet of your tent.

Ask L. Wolf and others how many bears he has seen/heard lurking around their camping spots at night, bears that have then left in bitter disappointment upon learning the food was in a tent rather than hanging up in a tree.

My guess is the answer will be few, if any.

[WhiteBearDog]

i've tented and cowboy camped hundreds of nights and never had a mouse or bear chew thru my tent or food bag


I wonder if rubbing Peppermint plant all over your gear will deter mice? I've heard that it was used in the 1800's to stuff cracks etc to keep mice and rats out. They hate the stuff. Even putting peppermint oil on cotton balls will work. Anyone ever tried it?

[WhiteBearDog]

Another question, what if theres no trees to hang a bear bag? What do you do then? Will be on Roan Mountain next month and have no idea what to expect.

WhiteBearDog

[CowHead]

I must stink so bad after a full day of hiking no mice, bear comes near

[Terraducky]

That kid that got attacked by a bear last summer in PA had a snickers bar in his pocket..bear came into the tent to to get it and bit him in the ass.

Your advantage is that no bear would ever be desperate enough to consider you food. :D

Here's the story about the bears attacking at Hickory Run State Park:
http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071015/NEWS/71015002

The sad part of this is these were BOY SCOUTS! What were the leaders thinking? But my question is:

Why take any chances? Why would you want to sleep with your food anyway?

[Snowleopard]

I myself sleep with my food. I use Sea to Summit dry sacks ( rubbery material) yes they are heavier than sil nylon, but I believe the "sealed" rubber material may keep the smell from escaping the dry sack. Where the sil nylon with a simple drawstring lets the food odors escape from the bag. ...
Supposedly the opsak plastic bags are more odorproof than regular plastic. Ursack supplies these with their bear bag.
http://www.loksak.com/products/opsak REI has them.
I know that I can smell some things through even thick regular plastic bags (some detergents, personal care products). If regular bags don't keep a human from smelling what's inside then they certainly don't prevent animals like bears from smelling. Hunters keep their hunting clothes in special plastic bags so they don't pick up household odors that their game can smell; this stuff does work on me at least.

Maybe the dry sacks do better than thinner nylon in keeping animals from smelling what's inside. I'd like to see some evidence one way or the other for these dry bags and the opsaks. In the meantime, I'll use opsaks (cheaper and lighter than dry bags).

[Snowleopard]

Here's the story about the bears attacking at Hickory Run State Park:
http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071015/NEWS/71015002

This is only 28 miles from the AT at the Delaware Water Gap.

[Nean]

Here we go again!:banana Black bears and critters like food- not humans. They can smell your food hanging up in a tree a lot better than if its beside a stinky hiker. ( I'm speaking of others of course, because MSDS!) All of the bear /food encounters I've been around happened w/ hung food. Hang the food/ feed the bear/ kill the bear. It got to be such a problem in the Sierras that they banned HANGING food! Too many people using the AT method on the PCT?:rolleyes: I do keep my B/L/D/snacks in big Zips and have a tent, so I think that helps too. I never leave food unattended in my tent either. Thousands of nights on the trail and I've never had a problem. Well, I did pass out before I cleaned up once and had a bear come sniff me while I cowboy camped out west, which brings us to a much more serious question: Do you wash your beard before you go to bed? :eek: Use your common sense when it comes to sleeping with your food and if you are not comfortable with your enviroment, then I say hang and bait a bear! I do this in griz country.:) Call it the CDT method!;)

[Lyle]

But catfish....



That sure sounds good, and menacing, but the implied risk just does not jive with all the experienced outdoorsmen on this site that have spent their backpacking lives on the AT sleeping with their food....without penalty.



I've seen the pack of my College roomate after it was torn apart by a bear in the Appalachians. I don't always hang my food, but if there are indications of frequent bear activity in an area, I do. Also, if others in the shelter are hanging their food, I concede to their sense of security and also hang my food.

The argument that "I've slept with my food for 30 years and never been attacked by a bear." is about as comforting as "I've smoked for 30 years and never died of cancer", or "I've never worn a seatbelt in 30 years of driving, and never been killed in an accident." Any of these statements should be followed up with a ..."yet"

[ChinMusic]

Also, if others in the shelter are hanging their food, I concede to their sense of security and also hang my food.

+1 here

I will go with the flow as well. If bear cables (a solid method) are available I will always use them.


The argument that "I've slept with my food for 30 years and never been attacked by a bear." is about as comforting as "I've smoked for 30 years and never died of cancer", or "I've never worn a seatbelt in 30 years of driving, and never been killed in an accident." Any of these statements should be followed up with a ..."yet"
Both flawed analogies. Why not add, "I've played Russian Roulette several times and have never died"?

Smoking or not wearing a seatbelt are not considered "superior" methods by sane individuals.

It is not just one person stating they have slept with food, as a SUPERIOR method, it is many, many experience outdoorsmen. They do not consider it as taking a blind risk.

[vamelungeon]

If a bear will attack you in your tent because it smells food, then why won't it attack you on the trail while you are carrying food in your pack. I fail to see how sleeping with your food is more dangerous than carrying food. Please explain.

[Nean]

I've seen the pack of my College roomate after it was torn apart by a bear in the Appalachians. I don't always hang my food, but if there are indications of frequent bear activity in an area, I do. Also, if others in the shelter are hanging their food, I concede to their sense of security and also hang my food.

The argument that "I've slept with my food for 30 years and never been attacked by a bear." is about as comforting as "I've smoked for 30 years and never died of cancer", or "I've never worn a seatbelt in 30 years of driving, and never been killed in an accident." Any of these statements should be followed up with a ..."yet"

Well-- I do wear a seat belt and don't smoke. I'm smart like that.:)
In the woods I am just not paranoid of bears, sorry.:o
From what I've experienced, hanging food feeds and kills bears. The rangers in the Sierra agree, and I believe they've had some experience too.:rolleyes:
If there are bears in the area and there is a box or wire for hanging I consider and usually use them. :eek:
Not against bagging, but most can't do it proper and so the chances of losing your food and perhaps getting the bear killed, putting others in danger from a problem bear go UP with hanging , not down.:-?

People die wearing seatbelts, and get cancer w/o smoking but if you're sayin I should wear sunscreen and give up fried foods......:D

I'll bet your roomate wasn't wearing his pack when it got chewed. I'll also wager it was unattended. Should have used better sense I'm guessing.

I trust my judgment in the woods, others, not so much. Too many base their OPINIONS on opinions and very little experience. Yes, my OPINION is based on experience.

If you just feel better about hanging- great, do it! But please know how for the reasons I mention above.

[Egads]

You guys do whatever floats your boat. I'll hang my food and laugh at you if a bear tears up your tent looking for dinner.

This is another one of the endless unresolvable debates on Whiteblaze.

[Nean]

You guys do whatever floats your boat. I'll hang my food and laugh at you if a bear tears up your tent looking for dinner.

This is another one of the endless unresolvable debates on Whiteblaze.
Floating your boat goes both ways and letting the hangers hang is fine with me too.:D Unfortunately I won't be able to laugh, knowing whats going to happen to that bear.:mad: I'll give you some food... and try and clue you guys into the difference between hanging your food properly and hanging your food, endangering people and killing bears. Most (it only takes one) that I've seen cant do it.:confused: Does a false sense of security doesn't make it right?:-?
Now if you leave your food unattended in your tent/pack, got open food laying around in your tent, cook in your tent in bear country you may not be a good candidate to spend long adventures in nature anyways.

I'm talking about baiting bears as opposed to not baiting them.;)

[vamelungeon]

So nobody can answer my question- Why won't a bear attack and take your food when it's in your pack and you are hiking, but will attack while you are sleeping with your food in your pack?
Do you think bears don't attack people while they are walking?
Are they afraid of humans walking or something?
Can somebody explain this?

[CowHead]

And the answers is HYOH

[vamelungeon]

And the answers is HYOH
That's not an answer, it's a cop out.

[ChinMusic]

So nobody can answer my question- Why won't a bear attack and take your food when it's in your pack and you are hiking, but will attack while you are sleeping with your food in your pack?
Do you think bears don't attack people while they are walking?
Are they afraid of humans walking or something?
Can somebody explain this?
Guessing: When a hiker is moving the scent would be scant, more dispersed, and not have time to accumulate. If the bear did pick up the scent trail it would have to follow you as opposed to being able to just explore a stationary target (camp).

That is a good question, especially for Griz country.

[Nean]

So nobody can answer my question- Why won't a bear attack and take your food when it's in your pack and you are hiking, but will attack while you are sleeping with your food in your pack?
Do you think bears don't attack people while they are walking?
Are they afraid of humans walking or something?
Can somebody explain this?

I just answered. :confused: If you dont bait the bear it will go the other way.:sun
If you don't believe me cover your pack with bacon grease and walk with the bears.:D

[vamelungeon]

I just answered. :confused: If you dont bait the bear it will go the other way.:sun
If you don't believe me cover your pack with bacon grease and walk with the bears.:D
I don't disagree with you. I think hanging food gives people a false sense of security. If a black bear will come in your tent with you in it and attack you for your food, it will damn sure attack you on the trail and take your food IMHO. I'm trying to find out why people think they won't.

[garlic08]

So nobody can answer my question- Why won't a bear attack and take your food when it's in your pack and you are hiking, but will attack while you are sleeping with your food in your pack?
Do you think bears don't attack people while they are walking?
Are they afraid of humans walking or something?
Can somebody explain this?

Yes, they're afraid of humans. A bear attacking a human is in predatory mode, and this is extremely rare. It must happen, though, because that when you watch the mandatory video about grizzlies when you get a backcountry permit in Glacier, they teach you how to recognize a predatory bear. I guess we are just not recognized as food by an extremely large majority (I almost said "lion's share") of bears. The only typical mammalian prey of bears are ungulate calves and fawns. We are not their food.

Slightly less rare are habituated bears investigating food smells around human habitations and camps. Still, they're not out there hunting humans for food, rather seeking food too close to human company. And when you have several hundred hungry pounds of muscle, claw, and tooth....makes me very careful about how I cook and store my food. And that video at Glacier made me careful about hiking in grizzly country, though every grizz I saw ran away immediately.

[Nean]

You have to invite (bait) a bear into a occupied tent. The people here who say it's ok and worth the risk (to the bear) IMO are not talking about a bear sniffing out a bunch of scouts. You don't have a problem w/ a pack 99.999% of the time because the food is (hopefully) sealed from the elements and there is extremely little smell left to get past the hiker. Same as sleeping w/ it properly. Leaving it just outside your tent is baiting as is probably 75% of hung food. Thats just my opinion based on what I've seen and heard.

[Wise Old Owl]

i've tented and cowboy camped hundreds of nights and never had a mouse or bear chew thru my tent or food bag

Well you clearly are the Chuck Norris of WB and I don't mean that in a bad way.

[Wise Old Owl]

So nobody can answer my question- Why won't a bear attack and take your food when it's in your pack and you are hiking, but will attack while you are sleeping with your food in your pack?
Do you think bears don't attack people while they are walking?
Are they afraid of humans walking or something?
Can somebody explain this?

Unless you snore yes, I think this is easy to explain. I think they single out a quiet sleeping person that is out in the open that is easy prey. I think of the kid that recently got bitten and pulled out of his tent in Pennsylvania 2007, he had candy in the bottom of the bag and that is what the bear went for. One stick of bubble gum in a car seat gets many a car broken into. I think bears think about the risks and weigh in on other nearby bears as well. The second behavior is to drag the food or bait to a safe place in the bush. It somehow comes down to the tent that is furthest away from the other tents as well.

Bacon / grease / oil will attract more than bears, try possum, skunk, and raccoon as well.


Here is a similar shark behavior while I look up the specifics of bears.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/22/tech/main5103123.shtml

September 20, 2007

Pennsylvania Scout Bitten by Black Bear

Here's an account of the latest Bear-Scout encounter in my part of the world-
From the Wilkes Barre Times Leader (http://www.timesleader.com/news/20070920_20bear_scout_ART.html)
By Tom Venesky

A Boy Scout from the Lehigh Valley area suffered three puncture wounds Saturday by a bear that entered his tent at Hickory Run State Park. It’s the second time this summer a bear has harassed a human in a White Haven area campground.
Pennsylvania Game Commission Wildlife Conservation Officer Fred Merluzzi said the bear was attracted by candy bars that were left inside the tent. The 12-year-old scout was taken to the hospital after the attack and released, Merluzzi said.
The incident occurred at approximately 9:30 p.m. in the park’s organized tent camping area while the scout and two others slept in the tent. The bear tore the rear corner of the tent and grabbed the scout by the left front pocket of his jeans, according to Merluzzi. He said several smaller size Snickers bars were found at the scene.
A scoutmaster ran to the scene after he heard the three scouts screaming and saw the eyes of a bear in the woods, Merluzzi said, but couldn’t estimate its size. The Game Commission placed several live traps in the area and one bear – a 253-pound male, was trapped and relocated on Wednesday.
Full Article (http://www.timesleader.com/news/20070920_20bear_scout_ART.html)

[vamelungeon]

Yes, they're afraid of humans. A bear attacking a human is in predatory mode, and this is extremely rare. It must happen, though, because that when you watch the mandatory video about grizzlies when you get a backcountry permit in Glacier, they teach you how to recognize a predatory bear. I guess we are just not recognized as food by an extremely large majority (I almost said "lion's share") of bears. The only typical mammalian prey of bears are ungulate calves and fawns. We are not their food.

Slightly less rare are habituated bears investigating food smells around human habitations and camps. Still, they're not out there hunting humans for food, rather seeking food too close to human company. And when you have several hundred hungry pounds of muscle, claw, and tooth....makes me very careful about how I cook and store my food. And that video at Glacier made me careful about hiking in grizzly country, though every grizz I saw ran away immediately.
I'm not talking about grizzlies. There are NONE on the AT, just black bears.
Why would a black bear be afraid to attack a hiker if it's not afraid to attack a person in a tent?

[The Mechanical Man]

Why would a black bear be afraid to attack a hiker if it's not afraid to attack a person in a tent?

Think about it.

If YOU were going to "attack" someone like a bear, would you rather do it when the hiker was briskly hiking along with a stick in each hand in the broad daylight, or while the hiker is sleeping soundly that night as you quietly sneak up to make your move? :rolleyes:

[Nean]

Think about it.

If YOU were going to "attack" someone like a bear, would you rather do it when the hiker was briskly hiking along with a stick in each hand in the broad daylight, or while the hiker is sleeping soundly that night as you quietly sneak up to make your move? :rolleyes:

I was going to say because they are afraid of people, not tents!:D
Whats all this about them not being afraid of attacking people in tents. :confused:Thats something in your mind.:eek: If you try really hard you can get a bear to sniff around your tent and if you baited it really good he might try to get at it , not realizing a human was in there. Once they did they would run - not 'attack".:rolleyes: They prefer an unattended poorly hung bag o food but I have a funny feeling you will be attacked by a bear no matter what you do, so I'd carry a big gun.:-? Shoot first, ask questions later..:banana

[RAT]

I have always slept with my food bag as I have to have snacks in the middle of the night and I have never had any issues (black bear country that is). Never had a mouse bother it, no bears ever entered my tent although I have had them sniffing around nearby, so I don't worry about it and will continue to use it as part of my pillow. Bears sense of smell is unreal, they can smell you with a tiny amount of food for mega miles away so the moving hiker theory is definitely out. They pop glasses out of cars to get can food when that's all that is there and packed hidden deep in the car (with no trouble opening it and of course is learned behavior and most likely not due to smell) so I am sure they can smell any amount of food at any time moving or stationary but they are nocturnal so would most likely encounter you while sleeping verses moving however I have seen many during daytime hours and had couple walk along beside me in and near the Smokies trying to bluff me out of my pack. Not happening !

Hairnt !

[kanga]

maybe the bears have their own forums where they discuss this sort of stuff. some of them say, screw humans, i'm going for the food. and other say, don't do it! it's sooo dangerous! they'll beat you!
just wonderin'.

[Tin Man]

shh! if hikers suddenly stopped hanging their food, they would stop being entertaining

[Egads]

Well you clearly are the Chuck Norris of WB and I don't mean that in a bad way.

Chuck Norris' picture is hanging on the wall at Jacob's Lake Lodge in AZ :eek:

[jrwiesz]

I'm not talking about grizzlies. There are NONE on the AT, just black bears.
Why would a black bear be afraid to attack a hiker if it's not afraid to attack a person in a tent?

In Michigans' Porcupine Mountains[late 1970's] there was a bear that was encountered by my cousin and friends; they were hiking with their packs, the bear would not leave, they dropped their packs and the bear took "care" of the food stuff, and the packs getting to it. Then it urinated on the remains, and left. Perhaps they were less that diligent in assuring they didn't have food smells emanating from their packs; the bear definately sought the food on their backs, and got it.

I have never had difficulties with bear in the Porkies', but I always cooked/ate away from sleep site, was always carefull not to get food smells on my pack and equiptment, and always used the bear poles.

HYOH. But, I'll keep my food stuffs away from my sleeping area in bear country if bear poles/boxes are avilable; if not I'll make other arrangements. But, I'm not going to sleep with it or use it as my pillow.

[CowHead]

That's not an answer, it's a cop out.

Yes it is! all of my meals or vacuumed seal and are the pack in an waterproof bag, walking snacks I take out what I'm going to used for the 12 -14 miles I hike each day and no more I fix my meals I don't wash my cup out around my campsite and it there is a place to have a fire I light one just for the smoke of it which keeps most critters away. Now I have come up on camp sites where there's enough food to feed 4 bears just laying around those hikers campers take the risk of waking up with something in their camp.

[Nean]

In Michigans' Porcupine Mountains[late 1970's] there was a bear that was encountered by my cousin and friends; they were hiking with their packs, the bear would not leave, they dropped their packs and the bear took "care" of the food stuff, and the packs getting to it. Then it urinated on the remains, and left. Perhaps they were less that diligent in assuring they didn't have food smells emanating from their packs; the bear definately sought the food on their backs, and got it.

I have never had difficulties with bear in the Porkies', but I always cooked/ate away from sleep site, was always carefull not to get food smells on my pack and equiptment, and always used the bear poles.

HYOH. But, I'll keep my food stuffs away from my sleeping area in bear country if bear poles/boxes are avilable; if not I'll make other arrangements. But, I'm not going to sleep with it or use it as my pillow.

Your cousin and friends 30 years ago.... any chance they were scouts/ kids? :-?They had a couple bears doing that in Yosimite some years ago. Scaring the weekend warriors out of their packs. All it takes is one person to make this mistake and you have a problem/ dead bear.:( I've been bluffed by the biggest black I ever saw. Kept coming in my camp while I was cooking my dinner. At first it was cool cause I was getting some good pics but by the 3rd time dinner was ready and i had tired of his/her company.:eek: It would run off when I ran toward it, waving and screaming but would soon be back. A couple of well placed rocks finally convinced it to move along.:) I slept lightly, w/ my food -that night.;) People hang their food for the same reason I slept w/ my pocket knife open and stuck in the ground within reach when I first got started. Scared and uncomfortable in a new enviroment.:o I've got more stories- don't make me use them.:D

[Chenango]

There was a recent report on trail journals (Gangsta) about mice chewing through tent screen, pack, amd stuff sack to get at food.

[Nean]

There was a recent report on trail journals (Gangsta) about mice chewing through tent screen, pack, amd stuff sack to get at food.

You know mice are really just little tiny bears!:D

Sounds like he left his stuff unattended and not properly packaged/ stowed. :-?

Most likely a newb as well. :eek: Live and learn.;)

[Lyle]

Sounds like he left his stuff unattended and not properly packaged/ stowed. :-?



Yeah, he didn't hang it.:D

[Nean]

Yeah, he didn't hang it.:D

I though he had a tent!:D Are you promoting hammocks?!:eek:

[Nean]

I though he had a tent!:D Are you promoting hammocks?!:eek:
thought...... ok - long enough?

[Nean]

Perhaps someone here can post a link to proper/ safe bear bagging guidelines!:)

I would if I could if I did.;)

[DAJA]

Perhaps someone here can post a link to proper/ safe bear bagging guidelines!:)

I would if I could if I did.;)

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html


I prefer the PCT method... Very quick and easy, and so far bear proof in my experience... Sleeping with food seems dumb.... Then again Paris Hilton is a celeb, so what do I know....

[russb]

And for a completely different point of view:

http://www.cliff-jacobson.com/bearproof.shtml

[Nean]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html


I prefer the PCT method... Very quick and easy, and so far bear proof in my experience... Sleeping with food seems dumb.... Then again Paris Hilton is a celeb, so what do I know....

You know a lot -but really, who knows everything.:-?
Paris needs to work on her skills.:D
I'm not smart enough to bait a bear.:( Well, except for that one time! :o
Thanks for the link, I'm going to read and heed, just in case.;)
I wonder why those rangers in the Sierra are so dumb, you would think they would have a clue based on facts instead of fear....:)

[Snowleopard]

And for a completely different point of view:

http://www.cliff-jacobson.com/bearproof.shtml

This guy has a mix of wisdom and foolishness.

"Keep a scrupulously clean camp" Of course!

"Seal all foodstuffs in plastic so there is no odor." He is assuming that if he can't smell it, bears can't smell it. I can smell garbage through thick sealed plastic bags and I can't smell as well as a bear

[Nean]

This guy has a mix of wisdom and foolishness.

"Keep a scrupulously clean camp" Of course!

"Seal all foodstuffs in plastic so there is no odor." He is assuming that if he can't smell it, bears can't smell it. I can smell garbage through thick sealed plastic bags and I can't smell as well as a bear

I didn't read every word but the guy seems to be presenting pros and cons. Assuming that he is assuming is beside the point. If its not for you, fine- but there are plenty of reasons (facts) it makes sense- regardless of assumptions or fears.

[Bilge Rat]

Since I hang, I find it difficult to sleep with my food. I do however find it just as easy to place it in the vestibule of a "random" tent nearby. I wait until the person dozes off and then quietly "secure" my food. If the person wakes up, I just make bear noises and jog back to my hammock. The next morning I just get up early and retrieve my food. Works every time!:D:D:D:D

[Wise Old Owl]

I have posted this before here is the window of a $500 tent that had no food in it and was simply folded up in its bag. There was a smell a food where someone had handled it and the damage is one of several holes. The tent was only used once.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/200804181.jpg

[Nean]

Damn WOO, the jaws on that bear are HUGE! :eek:
I'd imagine most my gear has some smell of food. :-? I had the same tent for many years /trips. I didn't always cook in it- mostly just outside the door and eat inside. Thing must smell like a buffet but never had a problem w/ animals of any kind. :confused:
Sometimes when the bears are thick I p around the perimeter of camp. Don't know if it runs critters off our signals them in but its a LOT more fun than peeing on a tree and besides, I'm easily amused. :o

[RockDoc]

A thru hiker at Standing Bear Hostel showed me his bear canister, which had been bitten and clawed and knocked about by a bear at Russell Field Shelter in SMNP in April. The bear didn't get the food but he knew it was in there all right.

After seeing that I think that a bear canister is an excellent idea. No need to fuss with hanging (which can also be a good way to lose your food if you get the rope snagged, or injure yourself trying to retrieve it--anyone who has done it a lot has stories to tell).

The well trained ones know where the food is; one friend left a snack in a hip belt pocket overnight in a shelter, and in the morning that was the only pocket that had been thrashed.

I've also had squirrells enter my tent while I wasn't there and chew on the thermarest pad and armpits of shirts for the salt from sweat, so it isn't only food that they want.

[brooklynkayak]

Maybe it is not an issue on the AT, but I know people who have had raccoons, mice, skunks and other critters chew holes in tents and backpacks to get at food. There are many recorded cases of black bears ripping open tents to get at food.
In my neck of the woods, raccoons don't seem to have a fear of humans and will do anything for food, even walk right up to you and take it from in front of you.

There are two recent cases of black bears ripping through tents to get at food near my parents home in the Wasatch Mountains, Utah. One time the occupant was bit, the other time the occupant was dragged out and killed.

I'm sure most people could go their whole life sleeping with their food without a problem, but I'll keep mine outside.

[Nean]

Maybe it is not an issue on the AT, but I know people who have had raccoons, mice, skunks and other critters chew holes in tents and backpacks to get at food. There are many recorded cases of black bears ripping open tents to get at food.
In my neck of the woods, raccoons don't seem to have a fear of humans and will do anything for food, even walk right up to you and take it from in front of you.

There are two recent cases of black bears ripping through tents to get at food near my parents home in the Wasatch Mountains, Utah. One time the occupant was bit, the other time the occupant was dragged out and killed.

I'm sure most people could go their whole life sleeping with their food without a problem, but I'll keep mine outside.

People who don't know what they are doing or too scared to care kill bears. Never bait a bear/ animal- in a tree or in a tent. Got a link to these recent incidents?? They sound like inexperienced campers.

[Panzer1]

I met 2 thru hikers who said that they rented a room in Shenandoah National Park and while their packs were in the room, mice chewed holes in their packs.

Panzer

[Lugnut]

Were they trying to get into the packs or out of them? Seriously.

[Marta]

The thing is that animals are just not that clever, nor do they have an uncanny way to know where food is. They make an association of packs/bags with food, and go after the packs and bags. If you enter their space, they will investigate. Maybe they'll find food and maybe they won't, but they'll give it a try. They don't have the ability to survey a room full of objects, deduce where the food is, and go after the food.

Mice, especially, will randomly chew stuff. The worst mouse damage I had on my whole hike was at a hostel. A mouse got into my food bag, chewed a hole in the plastic, ripped into one candy bar, and left. Had the mouse been even slightly more intelligent, he/she would have noticed the big bag of nuts next to the candy bar and gone for that. But mice aren't that clever. They have a hit-or-miss approach. They'll gnaw a bit on almost anything. Every once in a while, they'll strike the jackpot and find something they can eat or make nesting material out of. The rest of the time, they chew a hole, are disappointed in what they find, and they leave. Or maybe they'll find something they like and eat it. Or run around on the stuff and poop on it.

I think the idea that bears are unerringly able to sniff out the one camper in the US who has a Snickers in his tent is BS. We all reek of food all the time. All our gear reeks of food. Our clothing reeks of food.

Human-habituated bears are a bit cleverer than mice but they're using the same approach--grab the bag/pack, rip it open, see if there's food inside. Probably they won't score, but why not take the chance? It's like a scratch-off lottery ticket. And even with a low success rate, winning the lottery is so much easier than working for a living...

[Lone Wolf]

Maybe it is not an issue on the AT, but I know people who have had raccoons, mice, skunks and other critters chew holes in tents and backpacks to get at food. There are many recorded cases of black bears ripping open tents to get at food.
In my neck of the woods, raccoons don't seem to have a fear of humans and will do anything for food, even walk right up to you and take it from in front of you.

There are two recent cases of black bears ripping through tents to get at food near my parents home in the Wasatch Mountains, Utah. One time the occupant was bit, the other time the occupant was dragged out and killed.

I'm sure most people could go their whole life sleeping with their food without a problem, but I'll keep mine outside.it's just an 'ol black bear. no worries

[Panzer1]

Were they trying to get into the packs or out of them? Seriously.

The mice were trying to get in. They complained to the manager who explained that since it was a backwoods cabin they should have expected mice.

Panzer

[World-Wide]

Well, I'd like to add something useful to this thread, but I'm only hitting the trails on Japanese soil these days and bears are far-and-few-between. However, I'll be pounding Georgia trails in about forty-five days since my new assignment is bringing me there! My only advice on this thread is that if you go to a Japanese zoo, don't dress in a white fur coat or be a dumb-ss and where a polar bear suit while viewing polar bears! Enjoy...... http://www.jokeroo.com/video/funny/polarbearattack.html W-W

[THEmapMAKER]

I personally think people should hang everything that smells (food, toothpaste ,soap etc). But here is the thing that gets me: While backpacking on the AT I noticed that people cooked their food extremely close to the shelter (right in front of it), I am guessing some people even cook in the shelter. While they are cooking and eating their food they spill it all over the place (in the shelter, in front of the shelter and all around the shelter) and they do not clean up their mess. Spilling food in the shelter, in front of the shelter and all around the shelter defeats the purpose of hanging your food. For this reason and the mice problem at shelters I choose to tent. I never cook or eat where I put my tent. You can compare hanging smellables to using your seatbelt in your car. I only need to wear my seat belt if I get in a car accident. I never know if I will be in a car accident so I always where my seatbelt and the few time I have been in a car accident I have been extremely happy I was wearing my seatbelt. If there is a hungry bear around I want to make sure I am not sleeping with my food and I want to make sure my food is hung so a bear will not get it, so I can eat breakfast in the morning. What is the advantage to sleeping with your food anyway?

[Nean]

I personally think people should hang everything that smells (food, toothpaste ,soap etc). But here is the thing that gets me: While backpacking on the AT I noticed that people cooked their food extremely close to the shelter (right in front of it), I am guessing some people even cook in the shelter. While they are cooking and eating their food they spill it all over the place (in the shelter, in front of the shelter and all around the shelter) and they do not clean up their mess. Spilling food in the shelter, in front of the shelter and all around the shelter defeats the purpose of hanging your food. For this reason and the mice problem at shelters I choose to tent. I never cook or eat where I put my tent. You can compare hanging smellables to using your seatbelt in your car. I only need to wear my seat belt if I get in a car accident. I never know if I will be in a car accident so I always where my seatbelt and the few time I have been in a car accident I have been extremely happy I was wearing my seatbelt. If there is a hungry bear around I want to make sure I am not sleeping with my food and I want to make sure my food is hung so a bear will not get it, so I can eat breakfast in the morning. What is the advantage to sleeping with your food anyway?


The advantage is you get to eat breakfast in the morning AND, if it means anything to you, save a bear.:eek: I believe DAJA posted a link a page or 2 back that describes the proper way to hang your food.:) Funny, the same link also explains other ways that most hikers hang , and lose, their food. :-?The boy scout or car camper who baits a bear into their camp gets the press but a far bigger, and mostly unreported, problem is bears getting at hung food. :o People hang their food out of fear of the unknown and most cannot even do that properly.:welcome Folks here who have common sense and are comfortable in the woods sleep with their food because it is safer for the food AND the bear.;)
Why do people who bait/ feed/ kill bears think they are so smart?:confused: BTW, your seatbelt analogy has already been hung out there on the first page and it got chewed up.:D

[Wise Old Owl]

Well I read the thread and thanks Daja & Russ B's posts and the links to BPL

While the chance of a bear attack is slim to none here, we can't stop the new threads each year that ask over & over about bears.

Reality? I have been charged at by young bucks in the wild, trampled by a horse. Stings with hornets, bumble bee in the eye. I have had close calls with snakes, bitten on the leg once. I had holes in the tent by mice. And many mild stupid encounters with big skunks, coons, coyotes, possum, hawks and owls. Wildlife just makes the trip so more interesting.


I will leave you with this little gem of a bear attack I found.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f94WI-0chv4

[Wags]

and those of you sleeping at 'virgin campsites'. thanks for ruining the view for anyone who follows you

[High Life]

phewww ! i got worried for a second , my GF's name is " food "

[World-Wide]

and those of you sleeping at 'virgin campsites'. thanks for ruining the view for anyone who follows you

Say what, "Virgin Campsites?" :eek: I didn't see those listed in my Thru-Hikers' Companion!!! ;):p W-W

[Dogwood]

For those on the AT, sleep with your food around shelters, which are habituated wildlife feeding stations, and you run the risk of having mice and other small animals chew through your foodbags. Some shelters are worse than others. Sleep with your food away from shelters at less or non established campsites and this will be much less of an issue.

[Hacmatac]

May not be for everybody, but I put Mothballs in each pack pocket/compartment, as insurance. They last forever...

[beakerman]

First of all I don't think black bear attack people as prey. I think they are using their noses to find food and they are used to getting what food they find. They are usually the biggest baddest things around unless Lone Wolf is in the woods too. The thin fabric of a tent is nothing more than a slight inconvenience to a food seeking bear of any type. What they find in that little tent is a frightened creature that often looks like a large caterpillar and probably smells of food and assuming that creature is aware of what is happening: urine and feces too. That creature then reacts in a way that will either provoke a defense response from the offending bear or scare the bear. I think that is how these things go down.

An awake an moving hiker is more likely than not perceived as a threat to be avoided. the bear will avoid you and you will no doubt take some measure to avoid the bear. If a bear does take an unhealthy interest in you you can always dump the pack and move away and hope the pack is more appetizing than you.

I hang my food---even down here in TX where there aren't any bear to speak of--if at all. The reason is the other smaller thieves of the night like raccoons, opossums and of course assorted rodents. Hanging also helps cut back on the fire ants which I think are a big problem here in TX--granted not like a bear but a tent full of fire ants will ruin your night and pack full of fire ants will ruin your morning.

If you hang your food properly--key word there is properly--then there is little chance of having an incident that either you, the bear or any other fuzzy critter will regret.

I don't think you can dismiss the arguments about wearing seatbelts and such...they are perfectly valid. Not everyone is going to have an accident and you don't have one every day. You only need it when there is an incident. Same with hanging food. Many people don't. However there is always the possibility that you will encounter a bear that is "havng and off day" and decides to investigate the smell of the slim-jims you have stuffed in your socks. You never needed to hang you food until that particular night in the same way you don't need that seatbelt until the accident.

I'm not going to tell you you have to hang your food--unless you are under my guidance like my scouts or my kids (BTW I teach them to hang as well so in the event they do go on a hike where bear are a serious problem they not only know what to do but how to do it as well). I operate on the assumption that you are an adult and if you fail to take a certain precaution and encounter a problem as a direct result that is indeed your problem and you should be "man" enough to accept you might have screwed up. However I would strongly suggest it. I have been hanging my food, both here in TX and back when I lived in the Appalachians where there are bear, since I was a very young boy and I have NEVER been attacked by a bear or even had a run in with one while camped. The only problem Ihad was while hiking and I was bushwhacking and ended up in exactly the wrong place at exactly the wrong time. I got out with out a scratch but I smelled horrible afterward.

[Tin Man]

The thing is that animals are just not that clever, nor do they have an uncanny way to know where food is. They make an association of packs/bags with food, and go after the packs and bags. If you enter their space, they will investigate. Maybe they'll find food and maybe they won't, but they'll give it a try. They don't have the ability to survey a room full of objects, deduce where the food is, and go after the food.

Mice, especially, will randomly chew stuff. The worst mouse damage I had on my whole hike was at a hostel. A mouse got into my food bag, chewed a hole in the plastic, ripped into one candy bar, and left. Had the mouse been even slightly more intelligent, he/she would have noticed the big bag of nuts next to the candy bar and gone for that. But mice aren't that clever. They have a hit-or-miss approach. They'll gnaw a bit on almost anything. Every once in a while, they'll strike the jackpot and find something they can eat or make nesting material out of. The rest of the time, they chew a hole, are disappointed in what they find, and they leave. Or maybe they'll find something they like and eat it. Or run around on the stuff and poop on it.

I think the idea that bears are unerringly able to sniff out the one camper in the US who has a Snickers in his tent is BS. We all reek of food all the time. All our gear reeks of food. Our clothing reeks of food.

Human-habituated bears are a bit cleverer than mice but they're using the same approach--grab the bag/pack, rip it open, see if there's food inside. Probably they won't score, but why not take the chance? It's like a scratch-off lottery ticket. And even with a low success rate, winning the lottery is so much easier than working for a living...

agree that rodents simply chew on whatever appears chewable and i have had numerous pre-packed cereal and granola bars chewed in one little spot before trying several others - arrgh. squirrels are a different matter - I have seem them attempt to get into a food bag tied over a bear line - 10 feet from the nearest tree - seems they are agile rope climbers or can jump a long ways.

bears also are very good at attacking food bags in trees. i have seen a bear clawing at a bag just on the edge of his reach, knocking out a few items, then go chew on the tube of toothpaste. this was at philmont scout reservation in NM during a very dry year. it was reported to us that during normal weather seasons, bears are rarely a problem when their natural food sources are abundant.

i am not sure i agree that bears won't find the snickers bars in the tent though. i wasn't there, but a year after i was in philmont, it was reported another boy from our troop went and had to be evaced out after a bear chewed through his sleeping bag and bit his toes. supposedly he kept candy bars in the foot of his sleeping bag.

along the AT from NY to NH, i have not encountered any bears, but many sites have added bear boxes or lines. where they are provided, i use them - it takes no effort, unless they are full of trash, which some folks seem to think they are garbage cans. mostly, i peek at the register to see if bear activity has been reported and maybe i will hang my food, more than likely not. if they want my food that bad, they can have it. i don't worry about bears eating me along the AT. like Marta says, everything about you has a food odor, so if it was a real problem, we would hear more stories.

oh, at the AT campsites, l think is funny that the bear boxes are located right in camp, cooking takes place in camp and wash pits are usually right in camp. so, what's the point? safety for the hikers or the food... or for the bears diet?

all that said, if it makes you feel safer to hang your food, please go right ahead, but you might consider learning how to do it proper, animals can be quite clever.

[vamelungeon]

First of all I don't think black bear attack people as prey.
An awake an moving hiker is more likely than not perceived as a threat to be avoided. the bear will avoid you and you will no doubt take some measure to avoid the bear. If a bear does take an unhealthy interest in you you can always dump the pack and move away and hope the pack is more appetizing than you.

I hang my food---even down here in TX where there aren't any bear to speak of--if at all. The reason is the other smaller thieves of the night like raccoons, opossums and of course assorted rodents. Hanging also helps cut back on the fire ants which I think are a big problem here in TX--granted not like a bear but a tent full of fire ants will ruin your night and pack full of fire ants will ruin your morning.

If you hang your food properly--key word there is properly--then there is little chance of having an incident that either you, the bear or any other fuzzy critter will regret.





The only fatal black bear attacks in the Appalachians that I can find documentation on have been bears attacking people as prey. All of those except a baby in a stroller were attacked while hiking/walking.

[Big Dawg]

My food would be offended if I didn't sleep w/ her. She's loves to snuggle near my belly. She would be so scared if she was hangin in a tree at night w/o her big hungry dawg. No critter or bear has ever tried to steal my food b/c I think they sense the devotion I have.... and the smack down they would receive. :D

[beakerman]

The only fatal black bear attacks in the Appalachians that I can find documentation on have been bears attacking people as prey. All of those except a baby in a stroller were attacked while hiking/walking.

Was it really predation or momma bear looking out for her young? Was it 100% clear that it was predation--they were eating humans? I looked into this and according to the website I looked at there are more than I was clearly more than I was aware of--a total of 52 fatalities in the US over the last 100+ years.

I've not heard of eastern black bear eating people--grizzlies out west you betcha but not the eastern black bear. The website I was looking at was saying most of these were predacious but I don't buy it.

I've encountered many bear in my day and only had a "problem" with one and I understood exactly what that problem was almost instantly. Once junior was out of the way momma went about her business while keeping a very close eye on me. The rest of the bears were just happy to move on away from me.

I'm not a bear expert by any means just reporting what I have experienced in my life thus far.

[High Life]

i always hung my food for the most part or bear boxed if there was one available
i had mice in NJ and MA climb down the line 30 feet high and 10 down and chewed through my food bag .. ive also slept with my food in other places without incident
i wouldnt sleep with my food in NJ .. umm so whatever .. sleep with your Bf or Gf
but why sleep with your food .. kinda gross if you ask me

[Tinker]

Was it really predation or momma bear looking out for her young? Was it 100% clear that it was predation--they were eating humans? I looked into this and according to the website I looked at there are more than I was clearly more than I was aware of--a total of 52 fatalities in the US over the last 100+ years.

I've not heard of eastern black bear eating people--grizzlies out west you betcha but not the eastern black bear. The website I was looking at was saying most of these were predacious but I don't buy it.

I've encountered many bear in my day and only had a "problem" with one and I understood exactly what that problem was almost instantly. Once junior was out of the way momma went about her business while keeping a very close eye on me. The rest of the bears were just happy to move on away from me.

I'm not a bear expert by any means just reporting what I have experienced in my life thus far.

In 2006 (I believe) a woman was killed and partially eaten by a black bear and her adopted (human intervention here) cub in the South (GSMNP?)
The bear and cub were destroyed.

Wow! Time flies when you get old.
It was the year 2000:
http://www.aldha.org/bearmaul.htm

[vamelungeon]

Well, I'm not going to worry about it. In the extremely unlikely event that I am attacked by a black bear I'll fight back if I can, but I'm not really concerned about bears and I'm not going to let them keep me from enjoying the outdoors. There seems to be a real paranoia here at WB about black bears with some posters, and I just don't get it. You're more likely to get hit by lightning.

[russb]

You're more likely to get hit by lightning.

Statistically, IIRC, it is 150x more likely.

[MOWGLI]

May not be for everybody, but I put Mothballs in each pack pocket/compartment, as insurance. They last forever...

They are also carcinogenic.

[Pedaling Fool]

...but why sleep with your food .. kinda gross if you ask me
Obviously you've never slept with hot cherry pie

[TIDE-HSV]

Well, I've had my food stolen in the Wind Rivers (food wouldn't have even fit in the tent) and my wife's pack stolen at Sheep Pen Gap. In addition, I've been harassed several times. I guess that makes me a regular lightning rod...

[Nean]

Well, I've had my food stolen in the Wind Rivers (food wouldn't have even fit in the tent) and my wife's pack stolen at Sheep Pen Gap. In addition, I've been harassed several times. I guess that makes me a regular lightning rod...

So your food in the Wind Rivers was hung? :)
If a bear gets your food do you report it? :-?

[Cassie]

and that would be because while the bear CAN SMELL THE FOOD (duh, duh, duuuhhh!) they're not stupid enough to come into the tent and get it.

Um... yes they are although I'd say they're smart enough, not stupid enough.

When I was camped south of the Presidentials my tent was ripped open while I was sleeping in it and my pack taken right out from under my legs. The only things in the pack were my book, journal, pen and extra socks; my food and toiletries were bear-bagged. I guess there was enough of an odor on my pack without there being any food in it to make it desirable to a bear. I know it was a bear because I figured it was a raccoon and I ran out to get my pack back (not too bright but I was still half asleep). I couldn't believe it when I came tearing around the side of my tent to see a black bear there with my pack in its mouth. It took off into the forest with my pack and that was that.

Don't think for a minute bears won't come into your tent to get food. They'll do it even if you're in the tent.

[Berserker]

I normally hang my food using the PCT method (cause some raccoons chewed through the cord and got it down when using the method of tying one end off to a tree). I figure that there are issues in some areas with problem bears, so why chance it. Hanging the food takes a few extra minutes and is not a big deal.

With that said, I can see where those who chose to sleep with the food in their tents are coming from. I used to do that all the time, and occasionally still do it when I don’t feel like hanging it (i.e. it’s raining really hard, I can’t find a good limb, it’s been a long day, etc.). The only issue I have had with keeping my food in my tent is I got harassed by mice one night, but that was near a shelter.

Anyway, I think the issue of hanging is one of laziness/improper technique. As mentioned by other posters most people simply just don’t hang it right. I also see lots of pieces of cord tangled up in limbs where people must have tried to do a hang and got the line tangled. Just go out in your yard or to a park and practice a little. It’s not hard to lob a rock up over a limb.

[beakerman]

In 2006 (I believe) a woman was killed and partially eaten by a black bear and her adopted (human intervention here) cub in the South (GSMNP?)
The bear and cub were destroyed.

Wow! Time flies when you get old.
It was the year 2000:
http://www.aldha.org/bearmaul.htm

I didn't say none were predacious I said I just have a hard time believing that the eastern black bear population views humans as a prey animal when almost everytime you encounter them they run from you if they are not protecting their young or their food. That is not the action of an animal that thinks we are food. They commonly associate humans with food inteh same way dogs to but dogs typically don't kill and eat people--not even strays. Now if we were talking polar bear then sure I might even buy into most attacks--fatal or not-being predatory in nature.

[TIDE-HSV]

So your food in the Wind Rivers was hung?
If a bear gets your food do you report it?

The food was hung, but not high, since that is a wilderness area where bears are hunted (in fact, the next time I saw that bear, he was a rug on the wall). To whom is one supposed to report a food theft in a wilderness area? BTW, in the GSMNP, hanging food is useless now, unless you use the bear cables. The bears are well-habituated to chewing through food ropes now...

[beakerman]

The food was hung, but not high, since that is a wilderness area where bears are hunted (in fact, the next time I saw that bear, he was a rug on the wall). To whom is one supposed to report a food theft in a wilderness area? BTW, in the GSMNP, hanging food is useless now, unless you use the bear cables. The bears are well-habituated to chewing through food ropes now...


Use the PCT method (google it if you must) and do it properly. Unless you have a 15 foot bear they can chew the rope all they want all they will get is rope. Sure you might still loose your food to the tree--once that rope is chewed off at 12 foot up you are going to have a small problem--but if everybody does it the bear will unlearn the rope chewing trick as there is nothing to gain by it.

[TIDE-HSV]

Use the PCT method

Well, thanks, I think, but I don't think I like the outcome all that much. Outside the Smokies, I don't think such draconian measures are really necessary - and, there, they have the bear cables, which are proof against all but rodents...

[Wise Old Owl]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/funny-pictures-polar-bear-snow-keys.jpg

[Nean]

The food was hung, but not high, since that is a wilderness area where bears are hunted (in fact, the next time I saw that bear, he was a rug on the wall). To whom is one supposed to report a food theft in a wilderness area? BTW, in the GSMNP, hanging food is useless now, unless you use the bear cables. The bears are well-habituated to chewing through food ropes now...

I think I'd report it to a ranger station. It is my understanding that once a bear connects all the free food is hung out by humans, will create problem and dangerous bears.

[beakerman]

Well, thanks, I think, but I don't think I like the outcome all that much. Outside the Smokies, I don't think such draconian measures are really necessary - and, there, they have the bear cables, which are proof against all but rodents...

I prefer the possible outcome of loosing the food more than the rude awakening that would occur should a bear take interest in it whilst I use it as a pillow. I can hike a day or so without food (done it before and really I could use to skip a meal now and again as I'm too fat anyway) and probably can yogi food from my fellow good natured hikers to get me into a town to resupply. I don't really want to consider the other set of negative outcomes from the alternative activity in this case.

I wouldn't call PCT method of hanging your food draconian. It's a more effective way than the normal technique of hanging which you point out as being vulnerable to rope chewing bears.

[TIDE-HSV]

Read again. The bear is dead. The outfitter in Dickinson Park where I'd parked also guides for hunters. When I related the incident to them, they knew just where to find it for a customer the next week. It was just a yearling, 170 lb or so and easy to run off. In fact, my wife went to the copse of woods where he'd taken shelter for a nature call and they scared each other to death - each exiting the thicket at high speed in opposite directions...

[DAJA]

Well, I don't think such draconian measures are really necessary

Draconian measures? Please explain how the PCT method is Draconian...

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing here is a description of the PCT method.

A Better Way: The PCT Method


Affectionately known by the lightweight hiking underground as the "PCT Method" (presumably because it was first used by long distance hikers on the Pacific Crest Trail), a bear bag hanging method exists that is lighter, requires less rope, offers the benefits of counterbalancing, is easier to set up, and offers simple and quick hanging and retrieval of your food. You can make your own system quite easily by assembling the following components:

Food storage bag
40 feet of hanging rope
Keychain carabiner
Small stuff sack for a rock ("rock sack")
Pencil-sized twig about 4-6 inches long.

Using 1.4-oz silicone-coated nylon waterproof stuff sacks for the rock sack and food storage bag, 1/8" parachute cord for the hanging rope, and a two-inch carabiner from Wal-Mart, you can achieve a system weight of about five or six ounces. The system is used as follows:

Tie one end of the rope to the drawcord of the rock sack.
Tie a loop (e.g., bowline) into the other end of the rope and clip the carabiner through it.
Insert a rock into the rock sack, cinch it closed, and throw it over a branch that is 15-20 feet high.
Remove the rock from the rock sack.
Attach the food sack drawcord to the carabiner.
Clip the rock sack end of the rope through the carabiner so that it can run freely.
Pull the rock sack end of the rope until the food bag is at the height of the branch.
Take the twig and reach as far as possible up the rock sack end of the rope (for the average man, this is about six feet) and tie a clove hitch around the twig.
Let the rock sack end of the rope go, until the twig catches on the carabiner and keeps the food sack in place, at least 10 feet above the ground.
This system leaves extra rope hanging freely below the food bag, and unlike conventional hanging systems where the spare end of the rope is tied to a tree trunk, eliminates the possibility of an animal untying or chewing the rope in efforts to bring the food bag down.
In addition, the PCT Method requires less skill, and thus, is faster to deploy than the counterbalance method. Finally, the PCT Method requires a system of equipment that is lighter than the counterbalance method because it uses less rope and only one food storage sack.

[Lone Wolf]

Draconian measures? Please explain how the PCT method is Draconian...

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing here is a description of the PCT method.

A Better Way: The PCT Method


Affectionately known by the lightweight hiking underground as the "PCT Method" (presumably because it was first used by long distance hikers on the Pacific Crest Trail), a bear bag hanging method exists that is lighter, requires less rope, offers the benefits of counterbalancing, is easier to set up, and offers simple and quick hanging and retrieval of your food. You can make your own system quite easily by assembling the following components:

Food storage bag
40 feet of hanging rope
Keychain carabiner
Small stuff sack for a rock ("rock sack")
Pencil-sized twig about 4-6 inches long.

Using 1.4-oz silicone-coated nylon waterproof stuff sacks for the rock sack and food storage bag, 1/8" parachute cord for the hanging rope, and a two-inch carabiner from Wal-Mart, you can achieve a system weight of about five or six ounces. The system is used as follows:

Tie one end of the rope to the drawcord of the rock sack.
Tie a loop (e.g., bowline) into the other end of the rope and clip the carabiner through it.
Insert a rock into the rock sack, cinch it closed, and throw it over a branch that is 15-20 feet high.
Remove the rock from the rock sack.
Attach the food sack drawcord to the carabiner.
Clip the rock sack end of the rope through the carabiner so that it can run freely.
Pull the rock sack end of the rope until the food bag is at the height of the branch.
Take the twig and reach as far as possible up the rock sack end of the rope (for the average man, this is about six feet) and tie a clove hitch around the twig.
Let the rock sack end of the rope go, until the twig catches on the carabiner and keeps the food sack in place, at least 10 feet above the ground.
This system leaves extra rope hanging freely below the food bag, and unlike conventional hanging systems where the spare end of the rope is tied to a tree trunk, eliminates the possibility of an animal untying or chewing the rope in efforts to bring the food bag down.
In addition, the PCT Method requires less skill, and thus, is faster to deploy than the counterbalance method. Finally, the PCT Method requires a system of equipment that is lighter than the counterbalance method because it uses less rope and only one food storage sack.
too much crap to go through just to hang food

[DAJA]

too much crap to go through just to hang food

It takes less than 2 minutes.... Besides, your tired old ass wouldn't be worth eating anyway, so no suprise your not worried. Me on the other hand, i'm prime eating! No need enticing them more than necassary with a food bag!:D

[TIDE-HSV]

I'm familiar with the method - just never heard it called "PCT." I'd consider using it in an area where the bears are known to chew down ropes. I'd add, as I do in the NPs, a mouse guard made of aluminum flashing. I've lost food the last two times I've stayed in the GSMNP to rodents, once because I didn't bother to put up my mouse guard and the second time because other, later arriving hikers unintentionally disabled the guard...

[Nean]

Read again. The bear is dead. The outfitter in Dickinson Park where I'd parked also guides for hunters. When I related the incident to them, they knew just where to find it for a customer the next week. It was just a yearling, 170 lb or so and easy to run off. In fact, my wife went to the copse of woods where he'd taken shelter for a nature call and they scared each other to death - each exiting the thicket at high speed in opposite directions...


Sounds like the DNA test were positive!:p Thats just my- assumption - however.:D

Some people won't ride on the interstate- scared they might have a bad wreck.
Some people are afraid to come out of their house.
Some people would rather see a bear become a problem and killed than miss a few winks. :(

My advice is if you are afraid of those fast cars and BIG trucks- stick to the side roads. Stay out of my neighborhood though, if you don't know how to drive in the first place.:-?

[TIDE-HSV]

First, the bear was exactly where we left him. There are very few in that area, because they're hunted out. I was told that, occasionally, one will wander off the adjacent Shoshone reservation, where they're not hunted. I don't know where in hell you got the idea I wanted the bear killed. I thought killing a 170 lb yearling was pretty piss-poor and I wouldn't have told them, had I known they were hunting guides. As for aspersions on my personal courage, my friend you don't know me. I will tell you that I have a first descent of the Grand Canyon in a low-volume kayak. You're not in any position to lecture me about fear (not that it'll stop you from your impregnable position behind your keyboard)...

[Pedaling Fool]

Sounds like the DNA test were positive!:p Thats just my- assumption - however.:D

Some people won't ride on the interstate- scared they might have a bad wreck.
Some people are afraid to come out of their house.
Some people would rather see a bear become a problem and killed than miss a few winks. :(

My advice is if you are afraid of those fast cars and BIG trucks- stick to the side roads. Stay out of my neighborhood though, if you don't know how to drive in the first place.:-?
This reminds me when I was stationed in Virginia Beach, to get out of town you pretty much have to go though a bridge-tunnel. There's a large percentage of drivers that will, suddenly out of nowhere, put on their brakes as they are entering the tunnel. Those people need to stay off the roads, at least in the Norfolk area.
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They probably hang their food:D

[vamelungeon]

This reminds me when I was stationed in Virginia Beach, to get out of town you pretty much have to go though a bridge-tunnel. There's a large percentage of drivers that will, suddenly out of nowhere, put on their brakes as they are entering the tunnel. Those people need to stay off the roads, at least in the Norfolk area.
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They probably hang their food:D
I have a co-worker that won't go through it, and we have mandatory conferences there sometimes. She maps out a way to get there without going through the tunnel (it CAN be done).

She's probably afraid of bears too.
:D:D:D

[Nean]

First, the bear was exactly where we left him. There are very few in that area, because they're hunted out. I was told that, occasionally, one will wander off the adjacent Shoshone reservation, where they're not hunted. I don't know where in hell you got the idea I wanted the bear killed. I thought killing a 170 lb yearling was pretty piss-poor and I wouldn't have told them, had I known they were hunting guides. As for aspersions on my personal courage, my friend you don't know me. I will tell you that I have a first descent of the Grand Canyon in a low-volume kayak. You're not in any position to lecture me about fear (not that it'll stop you from your impregnable position behind your keyboard)...

Slow down sir.:) My comments to you specifically were just about the bear in question. ;) Sometimes cubs/ yearlings come in pairs and so... that was my point. :o Since you are 100% positive this bear you briefly saw was the same on the wall its probably just as well it was eliminated as a 170lb problem than a 350lb. problem. :-?

In general folks hang their food, to be honest, out of fear of the unknown. :cool: Better safe than sorry; I get it!!! :eek:

The example you provide kind sir, is the one I've been harping on. :)
Most folks don't hang their food proper and these are the results. :(


It takes a ton of courage to come on a public forum and admit / provide such a vivid example of my perspective. I for one forgive you -and trust you and others here learn by it. Thank you! :)


btw, they just let like the 20th guy off of death row in Dallas from DNA evidence and thus my wisecrack.:o I hope you understand and forgive me.:)

[ChinMusic]

The example you provide kind sir, is the one I've been harping on. :)
Most folks don't hang their food proper and these are the results. :(

Folks are using the driving/seat belt analogy all wrong.

Improper hanging of food would be akin to wearing the seat belt across your eyes.

[beakerman]

too much crap to go through just to hang food

For you yeah probably so...as I pointed out in an earlier post a bear is usually the biggest baddest thing in the woods unless you are also in the woods...I don't think a bear would mess with you ;)

[beakerman]

Folks are using the driving/seat belt analogy all wrong.

Improper hanging of food would be akin to wearing the seat belt across your eyes.

true but if done properly both eliminate so many problems when the crap hits the fan.

[Nean]

Folks are using the driving/seat belt analogy all wrong.

Improper hanging of food would be akin to wearing the seat belt across your eyes.

Thats all I'm saying. :)

I'd imagine :o:o:o:o is the main reason most folks ( but not the few w/ extreme courage ;) ).... don't report "stolen" food. Too bad really because by the time it is reported the bear has had plenty of time and opportunity to hone their new skills / commit unsuspected suicide.:-?:(:mad:

[Lone Wolf]

For you yeah probably so...as I pointed out in an earlier post a bear is usually the biggest baddest thing in the woods unless you are also in the woods...I don't think a bear would mess with you ;)

not so bad anymore. i was emasculted during heart surgery. they transfused me with left wing hippy blood. i cry for the bears and trees

[ChinMusic]

true but if done properly both eliminate so many problems when the crap hits the fan.
Operative word is "properly".

That is not something done by enough, and therein lies the problem....habitualizing. The practice of hanging (by enough) leads to habitualizing.

If ALL hung there food in a bear-proof manner things would be fine. As it is, it draws some bears in.

[Nean]

true but if done properly both eliminate so many problems when the crap hits the fan.


Not in our lifetime! :D ....but thanks for trying!!!:) You, kind sir have saved lives w/ proper seatbelt wear! My most humble congrats in this regard!
NO :eek: NO :rolleyes: THANK YOU! :sun The seatbelt I use I still consider safer- done properly- but again- thats just my opinion based on my personal experience. :) I dont stop driving because I may get in a wreck. :)

As soon as all drivers start using their belts proper and drive safe, ....so will I! :D

I knew a war hero who was afraid of snakes. Go figure. :-?

[beakerman]

not so bad anymore. i was emasculted during heart surgery. they transfused me with left wing hippy blood. i cry for the bears and trees

Heard about your troubles earlier this year or was it late last year..no matter I wished you well then and still do now.

Sorry to hear your still not back up to you former badazz self that most all former Marines are. You're probably still badder than the bear-ok I'll give you a break--a black bear not a polar bear.

carry on....

[Nean]

not so bad anymore. i was emasculted during heart surgery. they transfused me with left wing hippy blood. i cry for the bears and trees


Nean likes this.... :D

[beakerman]

Operative word is "properly".

That is not something done by enough, and therein lies the problem....habitualizing. The practice of hanging (by enough) leads to habitualizing.

If ALL hung there food in a bear-proof manner things would be fine. As it is, it draws some bears in.

Yep i couldn't agree more

[beakerman]

Not in our lifetime! :D ....but thanks for trying!!!:) You, kind sir have saved lives w/ proper seatbelt wear! My most humble congrats in this regard!
NO :eek: NO :rolleyes: THANK YOU! :sun The seatbelt I use I still consider safer- done properly- but again- thats just my opinion based on my personal experience. :) I dont stop driving because I may get in a wreck. :)

As soon as all drivers start using their belts proper and drive safe, ....so will I! :D

I knew a war hero who was afraid of snakes. Go figure. :-?

Huh? Maybe i haven't had enough coffee yet sir...your words are far to cunning for me...

Seriously I'mnot sure where you are trying to come from on this one..would you care to spinn the wheel and try again only this time try complete thoughts.

The onlything I get out of yoru post is you feel that you should not take any precautions to protect yourself because others don't...is that right?

So if you see a lady of negotiable affections and she says: "You don't need a condom I never use them..." you would jump right in sans protection? That is what it sounds like there chief.

Hanging you food properly does 2 things: 1) it helps keep that curious bear out of your tent--I don't think anyone wants to awake to a cold wet nose that is attached to a 300lb animal looking for food and 2) it does help break the cycle. Sure not everyone will do it--they never will but its like trash--sure most everybody packs it out even if it isn't theirs but what if nobody did it? Bear are a relatively smart animal they learn quickly the easiest way to get food and if that way is poke you nose into every tent then who is going to enjoy that?

Just you you I do have a fear of bear--I came with in a hairs breadth of being maulled once and to this day I get the wilies when I see a bear. However I always hung my food before that day; I still do and always will. Fear has nothing to do with it--to me it's just a little protection of my stuff and some sense of responsibility to others.

[Plodderman]

Personally I never keep my food with me when I am sleeping. I hang it up everytime and unzip my pack.

[TIDE-HSV]

Scratch that one. My wife's pack, when the bear took it, was completely open, including the pockets. And it was empty. Some Ziploks fell out, which had never been near food, containing her drinking tube for example, and the bear bit every one several times - just in case...

[beakerman]

Scratch that one. My wife's pack, when the bear took it, was completely open, including the pockets. And it was empty. Some Ziploks fell out, which had never been near food, containing her drinking tube for example, and the bear bit every one several times - just in case...

and that is called habitualization and why proper hanging technique should be used. Bears are capable of learning many new tricks and unlearning them once it is no longer useful to know them. If everyone hung their stuff properly then packs would not be raided because bear would not associate us with food.

[DAJA]

and that is called habitualization and why proper hanging technique should be used. Bears are capable of learning many new tricks and unlearning them once it is no longer useful to know them. If everyone hung their stuff properly then packs would not be raided because bear would not associate us with food.

Don't bother, humans are very very slow learners.... Some simply never learn.... Unfortunate, but true....

[earlyriser26]

The only time i have had problems is when i have hung food. For the last 30 years i keep it in my tent and never a problem. If i was in a bear problem area I would hang it.

[Nean]

Huh? Maybe i haven't had enough coffee yet sir...your words are far to cunning for me...

Seriously I'mnot sure where you are trying to come from on this one..would you care to spinn the wheel and try again only this time try complete thoughts.

The onlything I get out of yoru post is you feel that you should not take any precautions to protect yourself because others don't...is that right?

So if you see a lady of negotiable affections and she says: "You don't need a condom I never use them..." you would jump right in sans protection? That is what it sounds like there chief.

Hanging you food properly does 2 things: 1) it helps keep that curious bear out of your tent--I don't think anyone wants to awake to a cold wet nose that is attached to a 300lb animal looking for food and 2) it does help break the cycle. Sure not everyone will do it--they never will but its like trash--sure most everybody packs it out even if it isn't theirs but what if nobody did it? Bear are a relatively smart animal they learn quickly the easiest way to get food and if that way is poke you nose into every tent then who is going to enjoy that?

Just you you I do have a fear of bear--I came with in a hairs breadth of being maulled once and to this day I get the wilies when I see a bear. However I always hung my food before that day; I still do and always will. Fear has nothing to do with it--to me it's just a little protection of my stuff and some sense of responsibility to others.

First of all, I'm not smart enough to be cunning!:o ...but try the coffee anyways!;):D Just going with the analogy provided. I'll type slower so you can keep up.:rolleyes:
Too many hang food because they are afraid of any encounter with a bear. They really don't consider the bears life or future problems when they do this.:eek: Thats why hanging is illegal in the Sierra-- get it?:confused: If everyone played along and hung proper- there would be no problem bears and so I'd play along. :banana probably not- just sayin :rolleyes: Welcome to the real world- it aint happening, but again, thank you for trying. :sun

What good is a condom if you poke holes in it? What good is a seatbelt if you wear it over your eyes? What good is hanging your food if it only brings bears in from miles away for a quick and easy snack? :(

I protect my food based on my experience- not your fears.;)

Fear and a lack of knowledge and/ or experience create problem bears that become dead bears. Wake up and smell the packstraps.:)

[Nean]

Don't bother, humans are very very slow learners.... Some simply never learn.... Unfortunate, but true....

Also unfortunate that bears are such quick learners- and are baited and die from the slow learning - unconcerned for anything but themselves humans. So sad, but true....

[beakerman]

First of all, I'm not smart enough to be cunning!:o ...but try the coffee anyways!;):D Just going with the analogy provided. I'll type slower so you can keep up.:rolleyes:
Too many hang food because they are afraid of any encounter with a bear. They really don't consider the bears life or future problems when they do this.:eek: Thats why hanging is illegal in the Sierra-- get it?:confused: If everyone played along and hung proper- there would be no problem bears and so I'd play along. :banana probably not- just sayin :rolleyes: Welcome to the real world- it aint happening, but again, thank you for trying. :sun

What good is a condom if you poke holes in it? What good is a seatbelt if you wear it over your eyes? What good is hanging your food if it only brings bears in from miles away for a quick and easy snack? :(

I protect my food based on my experience- not your fears.;)

Fear and a lack of knowledge and/ or experience create problem bears that become dead bears. Wake up and smell the packstraps.:)

Your previous post was a stream of fragmented thoughts. This one contains complete sentences so I can actualy read it and not say huh?

Again I hang my food to prevent the situation you seem to be warning against: problem bears become dead bears. As I pointed out I have always hung my food even before I had and "issue" with bears.

Hung properly there is no quick and easy snack to be had. Again the key word there is properly. My choice to do so may not be the solution but it is certainly not part of the problem. I refuse to leave my "moral high ground" on this. To do nothing because everybody else is also doing nothing only contributes to the problem. At least I am not contributing and maybe a younger hiker will see what I am doing and learn something in the process--now i have 2 people hanging their food properly and that is a start don't you think?

To do nothing is morally reprehensible especially if you know what should be done. If ou know you should hang your food you have the moral obligation to find out how to do so effectively and safely.

As far as analogies go if you do something incorrectly like: hanging your food wrong, putting the seat belt over your eyes or wearing a condom with holes in it--any consequences of those actions are your fault. Regardless of what others have done or how they have done it.

I'm not telling you you have to do anything. Just don't come crying to me if something does happen. I will have no sympathy for you--much as I have no sympathy for motorcyclists that don't wear helmets and folks that frequent prostitutes when they get an std.

Let me ask a simple question: You're hiking a trail, it doesn't matter which one pick your favorite. and you see some other hiker left a bunch of trash behind. Do you: A) pick it up and pack it out with your trash, B) leave it where it sits but pack your trash out or C) leave it and toss your garbage on top of it because someone else has already spoiled the area?

It's not a trick question so you can answer honestly. However the answer in light of your previous discussions on this thread will show your level of hypocrisy.

[beakerman]

Oh and FYI Nean...PCT method works to keep raccoons and other larger critters out of your food too so it's not about fear of bears it's that I like my food. I did not get to be overweight by sharing my grub with all of mother natures creatures great and small.

[TIDE-HSV]

I just remembered how much I detest preachy threads. And most preachers...

[Homer&Marje]

Had a squirrel chew through our food bag in a vestibule in NH. Got out in a thunderstorm and hung it.

The food bag or the squirrel?:D

Hang my food everytime.

[kanga]

The only time i have had problems is when i have hung food. For the last 30 years i keep it in my tent and never a problem. If i was in a bear problem area I would hang it.


look y'all! someone with some sense!

[beakerman]

This is obviously lke the water treatment debates...if you care to raise these posts to that level of intellect...Some folks never treat and never get sick. Others of us fail to treat once and end up in the hospital. Call it bad luck or what ever.

I treat my water and i hang my food. So what?! You don't and it's a raisk you are willing to take and if we are talking water here then it's a no blood no would situation. However I feel--active word there is feel--that in the case of teaching bear that humans have food this can have some serious consequences for people that choose to not be so cavalier about things and took some additional precautions. Also as I said I hang here in TX we don't have a bear problem for us its raccoons and properly hung food bags keep the raccoons out of your grub too.

[Nean]

Your previous post was a stream of fragmented thoughts. This one contains complete sentences so I can actualy read it and not say huh?

Again I hang my food to prevent the situation you seem to be warning against: problem bears become dead bears. As I pointed out I have always hung my food even before I had and "issue" with bears.

Hung properly there is no quick and easy snack to be had. Again the key word there is properly. My choice to do so may not be the solution but it is certainly not part of the problem. I refuse to leave my "moral high ground" on this. To do nothing because everybody else is also doing nothing only contributes to the problem. At least I am not contributing and maybe a younger hiker will see what I am doing and learn something in the process--now i have 2 people hanging their food properly and that is a start don't you think?

To do nothing is morally reprehensible especially if you know what should be done. If ou know you should hang your food you have the moral obligation to find out how to do so effectively and safely.

As far as analogies go if you do something incorrectly like: hanging your food wrong, putting the seat belt over your eyes or wearing a condom with holes in it--any consequences of those actions are your fault. Regardless of what others have done or how they have done it.

I'm not telling you you have to do anything. Just don't come crying to me if something does happen. I will have no sympathy for you--much as I have no sympathy for motorcyclists that don't wear helmets and folks that frequent prostitutes when they get an std.

Let me ask a simple question: You're hiking a trail, it doesn't matter which one pick your favorite. and you see some other hiker left a bunch of trash behind. Do you: A) pick it up and pack it out with your trash, B) leave it where it sits but pack your trash out or C) leave it and toss your garbage on top of it because someone else has already spoiled the area?

It's not a trick question so you can answer honestly. However the answer in light of your previous discussions on this thread will show your level of hypocrisy.

If you knew anything about me, then you know the answer is A.;) Please expose me.:rolleyes: Sometimes I don't finish my------ because I've already finished the sentence many times and if you've been reading my post, well....:D

What you do NOT seem to get your head around is that I'm not arguing
against your point but I am using your argument to support mine. :eek: I'm happy every time you post because it allows me to make some serious points, and I might add, w/o the anger you seem to display.:-?

WHY IS IT....
Nobody wants to talk about the law in the Sierra- thats PCT- thats BEAR country. I asked if you personally- get it? :confused: Not cunning enough to provide an answer?:cool: The rangers have no morals- is that what you are trying to say?:confused:

So again I'll make these OTHER points and hopefully for the last time- as you seem to be one of the last to comprehend what I'm pointing out.:)
I sleep w/ my food because it is my experience that it is safer than hanging my food.:-? In my experience a proper tree to be able to hang your food proper, are as few and far between as the people who can properly hang their food.:-? (now, because you can and do every time! properly hang YOUR food, I'll be sending YOU a gold star!) The places I prefer to camp don't even have trees.:)

The main cause of problem bears are those moral :eek: (preacher hating :D) improper food hangers.:banana People who leave their food unattended, such as in a vestibule, etc. come in second. :eek: Both these types may be well served to take precautions to eliminate as much odor as possible. Thats what I do. Have you ever thought that even w/ proper hanging- if your food isn't smell protected- hanging it in the breeze will only draw bears into camp from a much greater distance. IOW, you can properly hang your food and STILL bait the bear into camp. And ladies- I am not sure that you don't have special smells that attract wild animals--- other than men- regardless of food storage.:confused:

You seem to expect everyone to drive the speed limit, use their blinkers, allow proper spacing and if they did -- there would never be another wreck. Of course then you would be right, but after my coffee this morning, I decided to join reality! But Again, Thank you for preaching your religion- but its not for everyone. I'm not superstitious or live in fear of the unknown so your methods really don't work on me. You have to be able to see the BIG picture for my arguments to have an effect on you. Believe me when I say it is nothing personal towards you or a group. I'm just taking the opportunity to hopefully make some folks think- and perhaps save a bear or/ human. :)

[beakerman]

Nean,

I don't mean to come off as hostile and preachy but sometimes I just do and I appologize for that. As I said I have an issue with bear and that is why I'm so adament about this topic but that is not why I do what I do. My practices predate my run in with momma bear. It's liek me and water treatment. I ended up inthe hospital over bad water so I strongly advise people to treat their water with something. Otherwise as long as you aren't ruining my hike with trash or other LNT violations HYOH. We cool?

Ok so I see where you are coming from...just a little. We (you and I) have ended up in different places via similar experiences. You have not had a problem with not hanging your food and I have not had one with hanging. I think that is a fair statement. Obviously if you have no suitable trees you can't hang--I don't like camping in spots that don't have trees when there are spots availible that do so that rules me out of your campsites. I'll hike down off a bald to get to the trees. I do from time to time like camping in the desert but last time I checked bear were not much of a problem where I camped. However call it superstition or whatever but I have no luck with such things. I promise you the day I don't hang my food is the day I get eaten by a rabid mutant radioactive bear. Or worse yet one just comes along and steals my food--then I have to eat the bear and they are too greasy for my taste.

You are correct in the point about odor from the food bag but...again this is my opinion so take as that...bear have a half way decent sense of smell--especially compared to us--and it can, at times, be difficult to eliminate the smell of food from your food bag. I'm in no way implying its impossible just that it can be difficult at times I properly bag my food to the best of my abilities to reduce odors but I know it's not 100% effective so I hang it. Basically I don't want anything that wieghs more than me in my camp nor do I want to have to skip a meal for any reason bear, raccoon, skunk or mice. It's a personal thing with me I like food.

Sure we can talk about Sierra and PCT and the rules out there...If you want some sort of indepth discussion about it let me get fully educated on it; I haven't taken the time to read the laws out there so I can't even begin to really comment on them. Apparently they had a problem with people hanging incorrectly so they decided to ban it completely right? OK I think that is kind of silly. They should fine you for doing it wrong not for doing it right. That's kind of like banning all cell phones because some folks use them while they drive and get into accidents. That's just my opinion based on taking you at face value of the situation in the sierra. I know nothing of the situation or the history behind it other than what you have put forth here.

However I would like your complete thoughts on why my using proper technique is a problem or a waste of time or what ever you feel about it. Note: I want you to take at my word that I am indeed doing it properly. Forget the rules in the Sierra and all of that. Just a simple easy to follow, no poor analogies, discussion about why I should no longer use the proper technique.

I also knew you would answer A. Everybody answers A because everyone knows what they should do, most folks will tell you what they would do and still fewer will actually do it. I do believe you would do A I was just jerking with you. Even I have some things I'm seemingly conflicting with. I'm one of the guys that pick up trash all the time but I won't pack out my TP and poo. I use a cathole and burn the TP then cover..well to be honest i dig the hole after then shift the stuff into the hole, it sucks having poor aim I rarely even try anymore, but the net effect is the same: it all ends up in a hole 6 inches under and covered with dirt.

Ok now that I;ve shared too much information I gotta go to lunch...the bear might get there first.

[ithai]

Mice tend to congregate around shelers. I've never seen a mouse anyplace else. Bears are a different story.

You'll be surprised, but I have seen mice EVERYWHERE...

[alalskaman]

Living/hiking here in Grizzly central, (the Kenai river area, home of some of the largest salmon runs and bear populations anywhere) I find the idea of sleeping with food completely laughable. Or chilling, depending on how you think about it. I seldom go anywhere without seeing one of these formidable plantigrades.One walked through my camp a week or so ago...fortunately the camp had a bearproof locker where I'd put my food the night before.

The forest service provides these lockers at intervals along some of the trails. It limits your campsite options, but provides a bit of peace of mind. I also have one of those Garcia bear canisters, but of course hate to carry it. Alaska is not good "hanging" country...many campsites may have only black spruce, not very tall. When I don't use the provided lockers, I do the Ray Jardine thing, but the food pack quite a ways away.

Some have suggested using, instead of the canister, something that is just pretty odor-proof...a new, empty paint can for instance, and putting THAT away from where you sleep. Also important is protection of your food from squirrels, voles, porcupines, etc. I had a trip more or less ruined by a persistent squirrel which chewed through a nylon packbag and pretty much mingled/tore up/defiled all the food. I can't imagine any way of hanging that would stop a small red squirrel.

As for all the tent reviews I see, talking about whether the vestibule permits cooking, Ha. and Ha again.

Some years ago, was camped with my (at the time) 10-year old son..We'd just settled down in the tent, when we heard sounds of some large animal approaching. Odds are, just a moose. But a grizzly is also a possibility. So I sat up, got alert, had the pepper spray at hand...and son said, "it's ok, dad, I will stay awake and watch with you." When the critter finally did approach, and proved to be a moose, I heard deep regular breathing from son, sound asleep. So much for helping me prepare to repel boarders.

[ChinMusic]

Living/hiking here in Grizzly central, (the Kenai river area, home of some of the largest salmon runs and bear populations anywhere) I find the idea of sleeping with food completely laughable.
In Alaska, it would be Russian Roulette. I'm headed to Wrangell - St Elias in August, will have a Bearikade, spray, and several will be packing heat.

But this thread was started regarding the AT.


Several experienced outdoorsmen have made this clear with regards to the AT and food:

[brooklynkayak]

You'll be surprised, but I have seen mice EVERYWHERE...

Mice, chipmunks, squirrels, raccoons, desert rats, ... are examples of critters that can get aggressive enough to chew thru tents and backpacks. The issue seems to be at popular campsites.
As long as you stealth camp, you would almost always have no problem with critters, 'cept maybe up north where bears are more aggressive.

Sometimes you are forced to camp in areas where critters have been conditioned to chew through campers gear. It is the best and most reliable source of food for them. Camping in or near shelters seems to invite trouble.

[Crazy_Al]

If you do not sleep with your food, a bear might eat it. I like to sleep with my food. Crazy Al

[Tinker]

This is obviously lke the water treatment debates...if you care to raise these posts to that level of intellect...Some folks never treat and never get sick. Others of us fail to treat once and end up in the hospital. Call it bad luck or what ever.

I treat my water and i hang my food. So what?! You don't and it's a raisk you are willing to take and if we are talking water here then it's a no blood no would situation. However I feel--active word there is feel--that in the case of teaching bear that humans have food this can have some serious consequences for people that choose to not be so cavalier about things and took some additional precautions. Also as I said I hang here in TX we don't have a bear problem for us its raccoons and properly hung food bags keep the raccoons out of your grub too.

Now THAT explains my problem with hiking.
I've been hanging my WATER
and treating my FOOD!

No wonder my filter keeps clogging!

[Nean]

First of all- my apologies for trying to tie together to many thoughts on my deleted post. I get it.:o

No hard feelings at all beakerman. I enjoy a good debate, especially one I can't lose.:D


Lets just say humans fear the unknown (w/o the examples).:)

Hanging your food is like driving down a dirt road doing 70mph. YOU might be safer wearing your seat belt, but you still have a good chance of getting into a wreck an causing damage. I prefer to drive 20mph w/o a seat belt.;) NPS -Rangers think our chances are better not to do 70mph regardless of the sense of security one gets using a seat belt and I agree! :eek:

Is that a better analogy? :confused::p