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View Full Version : Training for the AT; conversion between hiking near home & hiking AT for real?



minnesotasmith
06-03-2004, 13:00
I am hoping to NOBO thru-hike the AT starting in Jan. or Feb. 2006. My experience with anything having to do with the AT (I just moved to GA from MN) is restricted to the Approach Trail starting at Amicalola and 63 miles on the AT while in Boy Scouts 20 years ago. My question is:

What would you guys who've hiked serious percentages of the AT proper say one mile on the AT with an average pack converts to for # of miles on near-flat at home with, and without, a pack of comparable weight? This would really help me with gauging how my training is going, especially since I will only infrequently be able to get to the AT proper before I try thru-hiking. I've gotta do some serious OT to save up for my thru-hike attempt only about 18 months out, after all.

JimSproul
06-03-2004, 13:14
I live in rather flat North Texas. I have trained for hikes in the rockies (Philmont) the last two springs, and for the start of the AT in the spring of this year. The last two years I have felt ready for the trail when I started with no unusual problems. You did not list your age, I am 52, here is what worked for me.

I add a mile for every three miles to compensate for lack of hills.

I also climb 300 floors per week on a Stairmaster at the local YMCA. The real kind where you have to lift you body, not just peddle your feet.

My first year I had foot problems, so now I do my training hikes, with fullpack AND WATER, on rail road track. I walk on the ties/ballast between the rails or on the side of the trail. The I hoped that the uneven surface would give me more trail like conditions. The first couple of times your shins and calves will let you know.

It works for me. I take my time but no aches or pains, other than normal "Gray Beard" stuff.

rgarling
06-03-2004, 13:35
The average length of your pace will decrease a little over 10%.

If you image the level of effort taken to walk at 3 miles / hour around your neighborhood (flat terrain), that level of effort will get you around 2 miles along an average section of trail (with a light pack). I wouldn't try to scale this up any (like if I use the level of effort to walk 4mph on the flat, then I'll get 2 2/3 miles along the AT). A lot more effort doesn't buy the expected increase in speed.

Jaybird
06-03-2004, 13:49
I am hoping to NOBO thru-hike the AT starting in Jan. or Feb. 2006...........................
What would you guys who've hiked serious percentages of the AT proper say one mile on the AT with an average pack converts to for # of miles on near-flat at home with, and without, a pack of comparable weight? This would really help me with gauging how my training is going, especially since I will only infrequently be able to get to the AT proper before I try thru-hiking............................................ .......................................


MinnesotaSmith

WOW..i'm envious of your attempt already! Welcome to the South...

like rgarling said...have a "quick" pace around your neighborhood (i trained @ 3.5-4mph) with a full pack on (10% more weight than expected trail weight). start slow & work up to several hours...

also, a stairclimber or a treadmill with a 10-15 degree incline is good for prep.
i used the treadmill @ 15 degree incline with 40lb pack on @ 3+mph...

my average on the trail is about 2mph.

i live in middle TN...rolling hills...i train in East TN...larger hills & mountains.

but, no matter where you train...no trail is like stepping onto the APPALACHIAN TRAIL! :D

good luck!

hungryhowie
06-03-2004, 14:01
In my experience, walking on flat land (even with a pack) is fairly poor training for walking up mountain trails with a pack on. While I do walk (I can't help it, I like to walk), I ride my bicycle for real training which strengthens my cardio, knees and legs. Stair climbing is probably the closest exercise to what you'll be doing on the trail and if I had access to a good stair climber, I'd use it. Unfortunately, the closest I get is about 30 floors/week at school...all taken separately between classes.

-Howie

tlbj6142
06-03-2004, 17:07
Stair climbing is probably the closest exercise to what you'll be doing on the trailI've noticed that while climbing up and down real stairs (I did a quick 20 floors yesterday) that it really works your quads and calves on the way up. But seems to ignore your glutes and your hamstrings. The later two are what bother me the most while hiking uphill on a trail.

Going down stairs does seem to affect my knees a bit, but nowhere near as bad as a rocky path. The difference in stride seems to provide a bit more cusion on stairs than on a trail.

I think this is becuase the stride on stairs is different than on a pathway. On stairs you tend to land on the balls of your feet (going up and down), while on a trail your heel typically hits first.

Of cousre not having a pack on does make a difference on stairs, but that is easy to remedy.

SGT Rock
06-03-2004, 17:50
OK, I did some training up for my 2002 AT hike that actually was pretty good and put me in fairly good shape that left me with little pain at the end of the first 15 mile days. To do this though was sort of painful for me here though.

This part of Louisiana isn't totally flat, so to get ready I did some 6-12 mile speed hikes, at a 4 MPH speed. To make that speed I basically had to run downhills and do the best I could on the uphills. I did this with a 35 pound pack and full battle rattle. I did these forced marches a couple times a week. I did a long day of 24 miles at 3 MPH. Add to that some squats with my ruck on, running 2 to 4 miles a day (unless it was a rucking day). What I have found from backpacking here in Louisiana and on the AT is a ratio about like this: 1000' of elevation gain on the AT feels about like another mile in Louisiana. So a 12 mile day on the AT with an overall elevation gain of 3,000 feet (add up all the uphills, ignore downhills) feels about the same as a 15 mile day in Louisiana. so my highest milage day in Louisiana was about 24 miles, and it felt about the same as an 18 mile day on the AT with 6,000 foot overall elevation gain.

Kozmic Zian
06-03-2004, 20:47
Yea.....Trainin'. Walkin' fast with weight (pack), heavier boots. Or train with the gear you'll be wearing up the Trail. It's good to get your body phyically in shape, and your
feet, ankles, and knees also. Do stretching of hamstrings, calves, achiales tendons, back. Do 'compression cruches' with weight. Full squats, anything for the groin and 'gut' area. Lots of walking with footwear of choice and full pack. That'll do ya. Start about 6-8 months before doing the LDH, and you'll be ready. KZ@

minnesotasmith
06-03-2004, 21:48
What's "LDH"?

TedB
06-03-2004, 22:20
I like making up numbers, so I would say:
1) very hilly terrain to absolutely flat terrain, you need 2x the miles
2) heavy pack (1/3 body weight) to no pack, you need 1.5x the miles

Put together, a 12 mile day on the trail with a heavy pack would be about like a 36 mile day on flat terrain without a pack. All these numbers are very, very approximate.

SGT Rock
06-03-2004, 23:57
Dang Ted, those numbers look high.

Pencil Pusher
06-04-2004, 03:42
I've done some mean hikes and climbs and I think people underestimate the value of simply walking. I've gotten back into shape several times just walking during lunch, then power walking, then going up stairs. It's all about baby steps, like that "What about Bob?" movie quote. If you look at the big picture, you can get lost. Just focus on the little stuff and before you know it, you'll be there. Ride the bicycle alot for zero impact training (good for the knees). Thank goodness for the edit button, here's another tip for doing training hikes up hills or stairs: Stuff a water carrier into your backpack and fill it up. Drain that bad boy when you get to the top to save your knees on the hike down. If you can't drain it because the stairs are in a building, take the elevator, doofus:p

Don't forget about proper nutrition either. You don't have to be a calorie counting freak, just use common sense when thinking about what you're going to eat. What exercise used to take care of by itself, now it takes both exercise and nutrition. It helps if your spouse or significant other can go this route too, as temptation at the homestead is hard to resist.
Lastly, if you're gonna take 30 pounds off your gut, try and do the same for your pack and vice versa. There's some mysterious line between being miserable and comfortable, going light(er). Good luck finding it;)

Oh yeah, and another good tip: Try to drink a gallon of water a day. You'll freak out reading this, but it helps on both the nutrition and physical side. It's pretty easy if you think about it. Drink one liter before you go to work, another during lunch, another at dinner, and hopefully some in between all those. It might be an added bonus that you won't be able to drink coffee and sodas in order to accomplish this gallon-a-day goal. Water also is a proactive measure for cramps or charlie horses or whatever you call those painful muscle spasms. That's basically your muss-kulls screaming for more water and when they scream, you scream:datz

minnesotasmith
06-04-2004, 10:55
with those kinds of conversions; but, I kind of knew that. Yesterday I walked about 4.5 miles repeatedly around a nearby park in 1 hr. 55 minutes (no pack, no breaks); was on sod 95% of the time, with only minor uphills. I was going to go back to Amicalola this weekend to see if I could do an overnight to Springer and back, but I think I'll wait til next weekend. One more week to build up some stamina, and all that. I figure if I don't take squat besides food, water, and the clothes on my back (well, OFF, a compass, and a flashlight, too), pack weight won't be the issue; just my condition, the temps, and the terrain.

I ran cross-country and track (2-miler) in high school, but that was over 20 years and more than a few pounds ago. The longest two races I was in were a 10-miler on a sandy island (last 3 miles on &%# loose sand) and a 30-kilometer race through pretty serious mountains (about 18 miles, if memory serves). I'd been running 5+, occasionally 7 miles a day on relatively level terrain at a respectable clip, but I hit the wall in a big way around the 14-mile point during the race. It was all I could do after that to put one foot in front of the other in a way remotely suggestive of a running mode. I had 17 blisters by the time I got to the end (I counted), and my shoes were fully broken-in beforehand, too.

I also used to play something similiar to paintball 10 years or so ago. It commonly involved sprinting through scrub and rolling terrain with about 10 pounds of gear around the hips, diving into trenches, bellying through tall grass and brush, etc.; not sure how applicable that would be to normal hiking. I don't figure that adrenalin is something likely to figure in in regular distance hiking much (unless a bear or nearsighted overenthusiastic hunter is involved), though. I still remember very clearly sometimes lying on my back for minutes gasping like a beached fish with exhaustion after games; surely that won't be the case while hiking the AT with a pack, as long as I'm not being dumb and trying to go too fast for the terrain? That was done in full boots, though, and I never felt serious pain in my feet or shins from it. Walking purely on concrete or asphalt (even in good running shoes) now seems much more uncomfortable than doing all that stuff in full boots was; I suspect that it was because I was on soft sod with no rocks most of the time when playing that game with my buds.

I know that altitude is not a problem for me, either; I did some moderate hiking in Colorado near Idaho Springs for a couple of days at over 7000' elevation around that time and it didn't seem to affect me for squat. The AT doesn't have anything over about 6000', right? Anyway, the higher it is, the cooler it should be, and lower temps are my friend if I'm doing anything strenous, so there should be some cancelling out.

I've noticed that if it's hot, there is a MUCH lower limitation on how fast I can walk; my stamina is not as affected, but my top cruising speed sure goes to Hades. I have a whole acre of somewhat hilly lawn that needs mowing close to weekly now, and only a push mower to take care of it; that's how I have recent info on this. My family wants me to get a riding mower, but no way; suffering with mowing my yard every few days is part of my training for the AT, is how I see it. (No, I won't come mow your yard, though.);)

If you take a look at the weather section of your newspaper, you'll see that Minneapolis is still often running about 20/10 high/low lower than Atlanta is for temps; I'm still getting used to the heat here. The May/June temps here are more like what I was used to in July there. Around September 20 it would always reliably drop to where the highs were 70s at worst, with cool nights (there's been snow in September there before, and in the 1st week of May that I have seen). So, I have a lot of getting used to heat to go yet. OTOH, if it's 25 degrees with little wind, all I need is a sweatshirt and a stocking cap, and I'm good as long as I don't sit down for too long or get sweaty. Being pretty resistant to cold (but NOT to heat) is why I want to leave to thru-hike the AT in early Feb. at the latest.

So, anyway, from what related personal experience I have, I would have to say that a fairly pessimistic conversion between flat miles near home and in the mountains is probably about right.

whcobbs
06-04-2004, 15:55
Minnesota--

Training beforehand certainly helps, but unless that training was long distance through-hiking you will still have training to do on the trail. The impact loading from backpacking (even ultralight) is substantial. From personal experience, cycling, swimming, and even marathon training do not completely substitute. So feel your way in the first few weeks on the AT with easy miles (10/d) and a hard/easy alternating day schedule for the first six weeks. The time you "lose" will be gained back if you remain injury free, after the first month you will have a much better sense of where you stand and can increase the weekly mileage at about 10%/ week.

Happy trails,
Walt

sloetoe
06-04-2004, 21:20
You guys have posted a bunch of great info.

Here's my contribution:
Find yourself an obstacle course for yer legs. I run trails and ultra-marathons while generally only having downtown Indianapolis to train from, and it's hard for me to maintain the proprioception stuff -- the on-the-fly balance, the non-injuring recovery from stepping on uneven ground, that sort of thing -- while training on the concrete that is generally the only running surface available. So I have to get creative:
There are 3'x3'x8' limestone "benches" along the downtown "river walk"; there is a 50' high embankment, roughly landscaped, topped with occasional police call-boxes; numerous curbs, narrow ground level landscape beams to traverse, etc. I jump up, stride across, and jump down the benches, zig-zag up and down the embankment, staying away from ramps and aiming toward curbs, whenever I am running to prep for "trail". BOY does that uneven ground take it out of you, but after just two weeks' worth of ramping up (so to speak) right now, I can again testify to tremendous effectiveness. (While it might *seem* like pure strength training, when the benefits hit, it is pure endurance *relief*.)

Sloetoe
two weeks,
God help him,
from running a hundred miler
on 20 miles per week.......

PS: FWIW, when I'm *really* in shape (which I would be closer to if I had another month to train, dammit), I'll do 6:00-6:15/mile on the flat, for a "hard" workout. For the "updie-downdie" workout, the pace (still done "hard") would be more like 8:00/mile or more. Also, Frank Shorter said "Hills are speedwork in disguise." The opposite is also true. Do lsd at 9:00, do leg strength (100, 200, 400 yards) as hard as you can repeat 10 times evenly. Find a soccer game.

minnesotasmith
06-04-2004, 22:38
I would wonder about one aspect of them not being entirely exactly like the Trail: on stairs, although you are going up (or down), your feet pretty much stay flat. Hiking a trail, your feet will be angled up or down.

Now, surely everything above the knees won't care about the difference, but I'll bet not just my feet and ankles will, but my calves and shins as well. Obviously the solution would have to be to find a long slope to train on by walking up it, in preference to stair-walking if possible, then.

TedB
06-05-2004, 19:52
Dang Ted, those numbers look high.

Well, I have idea on how to test my wild hypothesis if anyone is interested. Get yourself a heart rate monitor. Your heart rate is an indication of how much cardiovascular effort you are putting into an activity. So just maintain a constant heart rate (say 60% max) and measure your pace under different conditions. Try it on a rugged section of the AT with a monster pack. Try it walking around town with no weight on your back. Once you have these measurements, you can say that x miles of backpacking requires the same amount of effort as y miles of walking. See if your experience matches my expectations, or see if my expectations are way off.

Anyone see any major flaws in this method of comparison? I know there are lots of minor flaws.

minnesotasmith
06-05-2004, 22:40
Think I read this one in a book on running... What you do is day after day, when you wake up in the morning, lie motionless for five minutes, and take your pulse. If your pulse rate is going up day after day when measured that way, you are overtraining. If you don't ease off your training some, you will get a relapse of sorts that the Italian bicyclists call sur-menage, and you will lose some serious ground WRT your conditioning. Might be useful to remember on the trail, too...

whcobbs
06-07-2004, 13:42
Minnesota--

Yes, the waking AM basal pulse rate is a good guide to training progress for thru-hikers. Remember that bladder pressure elevates pulse rate, so pee first. For most people pulse rate will be less (by 1-3 beats) lying on the left side. An elevation of 3 beats may be significant and a 5/min increment calls for a review of training strategy. On a hard-easy alternate day mileage schedule ( e.g. 12mi/8mi ), an elevation of pulse on the morning following the hard day means you are pushing your limit; elevation after the easy day means you are probably overtraining. A couple of years ago I had to bail out of a winter AT section hike. Elevation of waking pulse was the first clue that I was beyond my training level.

Walt

Bluebearee
06-07-2004, 23:01
What's "LDH"?


Long Distance Hike

minnesotasmith
06-14-2004, 11:29
I went hiking on the Approach Trail yesterday with about a 14-pound pack (at least 10 pounds of it was 5 quarts of water, of which I drank 4 quarts while on the trail). My hike did not actually start until shortly before 1:00 PM, with some family commitments I could not get out of. I actually started my hike up at the Falls, 1 mile from the Ranger station; I had covered the section from the station to the falls when I was there before, and wanted to see all new ground. I went about a mile past the Black Gap shelter (no privy, and a bit of a walk to water, for those who care), right up to where I saw a white blaze. Well, when I got to a white blaze, I figured I was getting pretty close to Springer Mountain; if anyone can tell me exactly how far I still had to go, that would be nice to know. I went back to the shelter; it seemed to have serious mouse issues (saw one in the rafters while it was still light out). I only very minimally was prepared to spend the night out (had a tarp and a windbreaker), plus noone else ever showed up; I would have liked to have chatted at length with some other AT enthusiasts. I had left the book behind that I had considered taking in order to save on weight. I saw 9 people on the Trail between 1:00 PM and 3:00 PM, but not one person after that. Only one was older than I am, and all but one of them appeared to be in better condition. Early to late twenties seemed to be the norm on age, with one teenager and one guy in his fifties. To make a long story short, I got bored, and after recovering some strength after a trail lunch and sitting around the Black Gap shelter for 40 minutes or so, I ended up hiking back the same night; I did not get to my vehicle until about 11:00 PM. (Got to try out night-hiking the Approach Trail that way.) I of course had brought a flashlight with extra batteries, and had less than 2 hours of hiking in darkness that required the light (it IS only about a week from the summer solstice, after all). I figure I did somewhere around 9 miles yesterday, taking pretty close to 9 hours to do it. I'm quite sore today; feet are most of the discomfort. I figure that the physical condition I'm in indicates that I could have done about 6 miles and been able to do it again the next day (and the next, and the next...). If doing 9-10 miles a day is all that most people hiking the AT usually manage in GA/NC, that would make me not all that far from the median right now. I'd like to get up to doing 20 miles a day so that I can see more scenery in a given amount of time, though; once I start hiking the AT, I'd rather be HIKING than sitting around a shelter or spending excessive money at overpriced tourist-trap towns.

I hardly noticed the pack, which was encouraging. I've always been pretty strong, so apparently the pack aspect will affect me less than it does most people. I talked for a bit with the counter attendant at the ranger station at Amicalola, and he showed me the Register for thru-hikers during the past several weeks. Typically, right around 40-42 pounds was what male thrus were starting out with. He told me that one guy earlier in the year started out with a 92-pound pack; no way in Hades will that guy make it to Katahdin with that load, I'd say! Yuk; what an obscene situation to contemplate (unless the guy was 9' tall and 350 pounds of bone and muscle, which I doubt; he kind of blew the "25% of your weight" pack weight limit). I figure that going up to a pack in the 40# range will only cost me a mile or so at my current fitness level, so am encouraged in that respect. I only ever got short of breath on the uphills, and about 30 seconds of standing still was all it ever took to get my breath back. Next time I go out on the Trail, I will bring a pillow and a foam pad, and will plan to sleep overnight at the shelter at Springer Mtn., hiking both Saturday and Sunday.

It was rainy during the afternoon, with the trail already soaked. I wore a very sturdy pair of tennis shoes, almost hiking shoes, with rather thick soles. If I had waterproofed (using mink oil/silicone spray) them, I don't think my feet would have gotten wet for beans. Using an umbrella would have been marginal IMO, with all the thin branches hanging low, but I won't say it would have been impossible. I brought and constantly used an excellent walking stick, and IMO an umbrella would have made it harder, as I would not have had the option to switch off hands at intervals that way. There were puddles on the Trail, but mostly they were avoidable. There was a fair amount of mud on the flat portions starting about 3 miles from Amicalola. Bugs seriously chomping on me were relatively rare; I used Deep-Woods OFF at the Ranger station liberally, and never reapplied on the Trail (I did bring it in case of need). The Trail was rockier than I had expected, although I usually did not have much trouble finding flat sections to step on. Anyone that would bring a dog on the Approach Trail would have to be nuts; it would not be a good time for the pooch's pads on his feet, given all the rocks. The uphills were neither as steep or sustained as I had expected; from personal experience hiking there in the past, Taiwan, Japan, and Colorado all routinely have steeper and more sustained uphills than does the Approach Trail. I wore shorts, and got a number of small scratches up to just below the knee that I mostly was unaware of at the time; those thin windbreaker-like lower leg covers (gaiters?) that I have seen in pics of thru-hikers would have been very, very desirable. I was never really hot, even thought it was mid-June in Georgia, with all the shade (even when the sun came out, I very rarely walked through a sunbeam) and it being a cloudy day.

Anyway, I would say from my experience yesterday that the most important parts of my training for thru-hiking the AT needs to be, in descending order (most important to least):

1) Walking long distances in general

2) Walking with at least a reasonable amount of upslopes as part of the walk

3) Walking where I have to do lots of stepping over stuff on the ground, mainly in the 4" range, but sometimes up to 10" or so

4) Being prepared (mentally, gearwise, etc.) to walk when it is completely wet out

5) Walking with a heavier and heavier pack (ultimately at least the pack weight I would carry on the Trail, or even heavier)

6) Walking with the footwear on that I would want to thru-hike with

Relevant constructive comments of any nature would be appreciated.

MizWaterfall
06-14-2004, 13:14
I am from Louisiana ... not the best place to train for mountains!

My suggestion, if you can afford it, is to find a health club with a Stairmaster-type machine ... load up your pack and put it on ... and start steppin'. Of course, you can do the same with regular stairs at an office building or football stadium. I didn't 'cause I already belonged to a club. The stepping-motion is a lot more like the hill-climbing motion than just walking on flat land.
I think any type of aerobic activity is good, though. No matter how much pre-conditioning you do, you'll still have an adjustment once you're on the trail. Having a healthy cardio system will make it a little less painful, even if it takes your legs a bit longer to catch up!

minnesotasmith
06-14-2004, 13:42
As far as using stairs to train for the Trail, I would worry that that my feet being flat on stairs, but inclined when out actually hiking on upslopes, would make the training not so equivalent. I have never used a Stairmaster (or even looked at one), so have no idea how the feet are placed on one. Can anyone address that?

BTW, if anyone is familiar enough with the Approach Trail to be able to tell from my description of where I turned around just how far I hiked yesterday, that would really be useful information for me.

NotYet
06-14-2004, 13:47
You are wise to train for your thru-hike. It'll make your first days and weeks much more enjoyable!

I was lucky to have steep mountains to prepare in. One thing I did was put on an overly-full backpack with nine days worth of food and hike wherever I could! But I think it was also helpful that I began to jog regularly to build up my cardio strength. I have bad knees so I was careful not to jog "too hard", and I gradually increased my jogging to 4 to 6 miles a day at a gentle 10 minute mile pace. I believe the jogging had a very positive impact on my fitness level at the beginning of my hike.

MizWaterfall mentioned joining a gym, which is excellent advise. If you have any kind of knee problems, it's a good idea to build up the muscles around them..."leg extension" weight machines are great for this. And the thing that helped me avoid injury the most on the trail was simple stretching before and after each day's hike.

NotYet
06-14-2004, 13:51
On a stairmaster the feet are flat, but it's a great workout none-the-less!

Also at the gym are the wonderful treadmills. You can put them on an incline and your feet will be slanted...helping both with cardio and your quads!

whcobbs
06-14-2004, 13:56
I went hiking on the Approach Trail yesterday with about a 14-pound pack (at least 10 pounds of it was 5 quarts of water, of which I drank 4 quarts while on the trail). My hike did not actually start until shortly before 1:00 PM, with some family commitments I could not get out of. I actually started my hike up at the Falls, 1 mile from the Ranger station; I had covered the section from the station to the falls when I was there before, and wanted to see all new ground. I went about a mile past the Black Gap shelter (no privy, and a bit of a walk to water, for those who care), right up to where I saw a white blaze. Well, when I got to a white blaze, I figured I was getting pretty close to Springer Mountain; if anyone can tell me exactly how far I still had to go, that would be nice to know. I went back to the shelter; it seemed to have serious mouse issues (saw one in the rafters while it was still light out). I only very minimally was prepared to spend the night out (had a tarp and a windbreaker), plus noone else ever showed up; I would have liked to have chatted at length with some other AT enthusiasts. I had left the book behind that I had considered taking in order to save on weight. I saw 9 people on the Trail between 1:00 PM and 3:00 PM, but not one person after that. Only one was older than I am, and all but one of them appeared to be in better condition. Early to late twenties seemed to be the norm on age, with one teenager and one guy in his fifties. To make a long story short, I got bored, and after recovering some strength after a trail lunch and sitting around the Black Gap shelter for 40 minutes or so, I ended up hiking back the same night; I did not get to my vehicle until about 11:00 PM. (Got to try out night-hiking the Approach Trail that way.) I of course had brought a flashlight with extra batteries, and had less than 2 hours of hiking in darkness that required the light (it IS only about a week from the summer solstice, after all). I figure I did somewhere around 9 miles yesterday, taking pretty close to 9 hours to do it. I'm quite sore today; feet are most of the discomfort. I figure that the physical condition I'm in indicates that I could have done about 6 miles and been able to do it again the next day (and the next, and the next...). If doing 9-10 miles a day is all that most people hiking the AT usually manage in GA/NC, that would make me not all that far from the median right now. I'd like to get up to doing 20 miles a day so that I can see more scenery in a given amount of time, though; once I start hiking the AT, I'd rather be HIKING than sitting around a shelter or spending excessive money at overpriced tourist-trap towns.

I hardly noticed the pack, which was encouraging. I've always been pretty strong, so apparently the pack aspect will affect me less than it does most people. I talked for a bit with the counter attendant at the ranger station at Amicalola, and he showed me the Register for thru-hikers during the past several weeks. Typically, right around 40-42 pounds was what male thrus were starting out with. He told me that one guy earlier in the year started out with a 92-pound pack; no way in Hades will that guy make it to Katahdin with that load, I'd say! Yuk; what an obscene situation to contemplate (unless the guy was 9' tall and 350 pounds of bone and muscle, which I doubt; he kind of blew the "25% of your weight" pack weight limit). I figure that going up to a pack in the 40# range will only cost me a mile or so at my current fitness level, so am encouraged in that respect. I only ever got short of breath on the uphills, and about 30 seconds of standing still was all it ever took to get my breath back. Next time I go out on the Trail, I will bring a pillow and a foam pad, and will plan to sleep overnight at the shelter at Springer Mtn., hiking both Saturday and Sunday.

It was rainy during the afternoon, with the trail already soaked. I wore a very sturdy pair of tennis shoes, almost hiking shoes, with rather thick soles. If I had waterproofed (using mink oil/silicone spray) them, I don't think my feet would have gotten wet for beans. Using an umbrella would have been marginal IMO, with all the thin branches hanging low, but I won't say it would have been impossible. I brought and constantly used an excellent walking stick, and IMO an umbrella would have made it harder, as I would not have had the option to switch off hands at intervals that way. There were puddles on the Trail, but mostly they were avoidable. There was a fair amount of mud on the flat portions starting about 3 miles from Amicalola. Bugs seriously chomping on me were relatively rare; I used Deep-Woods OFF at the Ranger station liberally, and never reapplied on the Trail (I did bring it in case of need). The Trail was rockier than I had expected, although I usually did not have much trouble finding flat sections to step on. Anyone that would bring a dog on the Approach Trail would have to be nuts; it would not be a good time for the pooch's pads on his feet, given all the rocks. The uphills were neither as steep or sustained as I had expected; from personal experience hiking there in the past, Taiwan, Japan, and Colorado all routinely have steeper and more sustained uphills than does the Approach Trail. I wore shorts, and got a number of small scratches up to just below the knee that I mostly was unaware of at the time; those thin windbreaker-like lower leg covers (gaiters?) that I have seen in pics of thru-hikers would have been very, very desirable. I was never really hot, even thought it was mid-June in Georgia, with all the shade (even when the sun came out, I very rarely walked through a sunbeam) and it being a cloudy day.

Anyway, I would say from my experience yesterday that the most important parts of my training for thru-hiking the AT needs to be, in descending order (most important to least):

1) Walking long distances in general

2) Walking with at least a reasonable amount of upslopes as part of the walk

3) Walking where I have to do lots of stepping over stuff on the ground, mainly in the 4" range, but sometimes up to 10" or so

4) Being prepared (mentally, gearwise, etc.) to walk when it is completely wet out

5) Walking with a heavier and heavier pack (ultimately at least the pack weight I would carry on the Trail, or even heavier)

6) Walking with the footwear on that I would want to thru-hike with

Relevant constructive comments of any nature would be appreciated.
Minnesota--

You are getting there bit by bit. Points 1-6 are all valid, to which I might add, train in exactly the clothes you will wear for your thru-hike and you will find out what suits you. You want your pack (total pack weight with supplies) in the 20 lb range, not 40 lb. The difference is very important. To achieve this weight, you will need to learn ultralight technics/gear. Many newbie AT hikers do this on the trail. Do some AT sleepovers in your training, it will teach you a lot about your gear.

Walt

minnesotasmith
06-14-2004, 15:32
"You want your pack (total pack weight with supplies) in the 20 lb range, not 40 lb."

How can I carry even 2 days' worth of water along with food, stove, pot, spoon, bug repellent, toiletries, tent, clothes, backpack, sleeping bag, etc. at 20# total weight, even using ultralight stuff? A gallon of water is about 8#, and I would feel I was being irresponsible carrying less than a gallon most of the time; I can go a heck of a lot longer without food than without water, if things don't go as planned. I think I've heard that there are stretches on the AT where there is no water for over 10 miles, and certainly I'd need to routinely carry over 3 days of food, correct? Not one thru-hiker in the Register at Amicalola for the last 2 or 3 weeks was under 30# packweight that I saw, so apparently I am not alone in this opinion.

Oh, and does anyone here know how far I was from Springer when I hit the first white blaze on the Approach Trail yesterday, a mile or so past the Black Gap shelter?

NotYet
06-14-2004, 16:14
At the top of Springer, you see the Blue Blaze for the Approach Trail; so, if you hit a white blaze, I'd assume you were on Springer. It's kind of an unassuming mountain. If you went a little farther and looked around you would have probably seen the plaque. But it does sound to me like you were there...(the top of Springer is only about 1.5 miles from Black Gap Shelter).

As for the weight of your pack, there isn't a "right" answer. Many people use the ultra-light approach and really like it. I've noticed, though, that oftentimes hikers who want to use the ultra-light approach end up with tons of extra gear strapped onto a pack with no suspension system, defeating the purpose and feeling more weighed down than if they'd just gotten a "regular pack". If you want to use ultra-light techniques, read Ray Jardine's book. A big plus of this technique is that you can cover more ground each day. So you get to re-supply points quicker, thus you can carry less food in your pack.

On the otherhand, many hikers can easily carry a pack that weighs 30 to 40 pounds provided it fits them well and has a a good suspension system. One of the principles I use is paring down. For instance, you can re-package items in smaller containers (bug dope, sun-screen, food, etc.). Also, if an item doesn't provide a multiple purpose, I think hard before I bring it, or if 2 items can serve the same purpose, I don't take both...for instance, I use my bowl as my cup. Also, you may begin to discover that you don't really need some of the stuff you are carrying. That's another reason that it's really helpful that you're doing these training hikes.

On my SOBO journey, my first maildrop was on day 9. This was my longest maildrop and my pack weighed about 38 pounds at the beginning. Obviously, I personally don't use the ultra-light method, but I have a great pack and was fine with how it distributed the weight. I also didn't skimp where food was concerned because it is important to me, which of course increased my pack weight!

You'll decide what you need (and want) to take with you. Obviously, the heavier the pack, the more strain on the body. It's good to try to pare down the weight that you can, or look into ultra-light hiking if you think that might be for you.

A-Train
06-15-2004, 10:37
you certainly don't need to carry a gallon or more of water anywhere on the AT. I carry 2 liters max, there is water all around, seriously

Rain Man
06-15-2004, 11:24
I figure I did somewhere around 9 miles yesterday, taking pretty close to 9 hours to do it.

If you hiked from the top of the Falls to the top of Springer (the first white blaze) and back again, you did around 15+ miles, if I'm not mistaken. I think the Approach Trail is 8.8 miles. You cut off a mile by skipping to the top of the Falls.



It was rainy during the afternoon, with the trail already soaked. I wore a very sturdy pair of tennis shoes, almost hiking shoes, with rather thick soles. If I had waterproofed (using mink oil/silicone spray) them, I don't think my feet would have gotten wet for beans.

I think your feet would still get plenty wet ... from the inside (sweat). "Waterproof" is a blessing AND a curse. Thus, "Gore-tex," ... which is a nice idea that doesn't quite work ... yet.



There were puddles on the Trail, but mostly they were avoidable.

Careful how you "avoid" puddles. It's very poor trail etiquette to leave the trail to hike around puddles. If you can hop over them, great. Otherwise, you need to slosh right through, rather than killing vegetation and contributing to gradual "spreading" of the trail.



The Trail was rockier than I had expected, although I usually did not have much trouble finding flat sections to step on.

There are MUCH rockier sections. The Approach Trail is relatively rock-free. IMHO.



4) Being prepared (mentally, gearwise, etc.) to walk when it is completely wet out

I _THINK_ it is fair to say many ATers simply hike wet when it rains and to heck with rain gear, unless it is bitterly cold.



Relevant constructive comments of any nature would be appreciated.

Sounds as if you did the perfect thing ... you got out there and HIKED some of it!!!
:sun

Rain Man

.

DogMother
06-15-2004, 13:31
minnesotasmith,
I don't know where in GA you live but I trained at Kennesaw Mt when I attempted my thru hike in 1998.
I only made it to NOC before I had to stop. Wasn't my time. Going back hopefully in 2008.
I ran/lifted weights etc. at the gym 3-4 times a week and did a loop trail hike over the top of Kennesaw on the weekends. If you live anywhere near Kennesaw it's an excellent place to train. I did it with increasing (up to 40 lbs) pack loads. People gave me odd looks at first.
I did not have any injuries on the AT and had a wonderful 14 mile hike one day.
Good luck.

minnesotasmith
06-15-2004, 20:31
1) The first sign at the top of the Falls in Amicalola said 7.3 miles to Springer, if I remember correctly. The sign is one that referred to the "Hike Inn" Trail as well. Further confusing the issue was a couple of hikers I met about halfway to the Black Gap Shelter that told me the next sign was wrong (that said Springer was 3.5 miles more), that Springer was actually rather more than that. Also, I don't rule out that single white blaze that I saw about 25 minutes past the Black Gap Shelter simply being older and faded to white; the paint making up the blaze wasn't in the best of shape. Anyway, I didn't mean to make such a big deal out of wondering where it was I got to exactly along the Approach Trail; it's just that if I knew the distance I hiked that day, I could correlate it with how it felt, and get a pretty good idea of where I am with the physical part of my training to thru-hike.

2) I understand about not eroding off-trail areas by avoidably walking on them.

3) I live in extreme NE Forsyth County, about as close to Gainesville as I do to GA 400/19. Frankly, my location is more convenient to Amicalola or points on the Appalachian Trail proper to the NE than it is to jobs. I am seriously considering seeing if I can find an economical 1-room apartment (or even renting a room) in Alpharetta, Duluth, Norcross, or the like, and just drive farther to hike on weekends.

4) As soon as I get my first paycheck (think I'll get offered a job from the interview I had this afternoon), I will join the Georgia Appalachian Trail Club. I have had a phone conversation with a couple of officers of the Club, and they sound well-run, sane, and pleasant to deal with. They have a really cool way of hiking the AT in GA, where they break it up into weekend day or overnight hikes where in the course of a year they hike the whole AT in GA, in addition to other trails (some out of state). It's just that the thirty bucks the membership requires is around the cost for gas of 4 round trips to Amicalola, so I'll wait a few weeks on formally hooking up with them.

5) DogMother, I would love a bit more elaboration on what you want to share with me WRT your hiking experiences. Are you saying that the Appalachian Trail in GA is not strenuous enough to be good preparation for the AT thereafter? If so, I could see that; I personally found the Approach Trail to not be all that steep or that sustained in its upslopes. By comparison, my memory of hiking with camping gear in Colorado is very clear on periodically lying on my face, gasping to get my breath back, doggedly grasping some rock protrusion to avoid tumbling down a hill. (It was the slopes, not the altitude; on flat stretches, even at over 7000' with a full pack, I boogied in CO; of course, that was 13 years ago, and I was 13 years younger then.) Anyway, more info on where to hike near Kennesaw would be much appreciated.

6) Rainman, I have a pair of medium-weight uninsulated leather boots (still in good shape, but fully broken in) that I wore when cutting firewood out-of-doors in northern MN when it was not particularly cold out (defined as above 10 degrees F) that I may wear next time I try the Approach Trail, especially if it looks like it will be wet again. They are relatively short, only coming about 1.5" past the ankles, but they have serious mink oil in them, which I will refresh a day or two before going back to Amicalola. Certainly, drier feet would have made for a slightly more pleasant day; however, I had no blisters at the end of the day, so having had wet feet was no disaster. I do wish that I had had something to protect my legs, like those single-layer nylon leg-warmer-shaped pieces I have seen some thru-hikers wearing in photographs. Are these gaiters? Also, what are those other things that come down over the lace areas on boots and protect them from mud to some degree? I would love to know the proper names for both, where to buy them cheaply around here (including Atlanta proper), and what they should cost.

7) On the water issue... I have a large portable Katadyne ceramic filter setup with handpump that I have never used. It is less weight than a quart of water, so I will likely stick in in my pack for my next Approach Trail hike. It is probably overly large and heavy (stats below) for my thru-hike, so I'll replace it with a smaller one before then. Since moderate differences in pack weight is less (much less!) of a worry for me than money right now, for the next several months I'll stay with it. I figure I'll leave one of my 1/2-gallon canteens behind, carrying the other one with me. I am too paranoid to go with only one water container, though (one leak and I'm SOL on water), so I'll still take my quart canteen. It's a convenient, curved shape, hooks on a belt, and being all plastic, is very, very light when empty. For reference purposes, I remember very well how I handled water when hiking with a group in West Texas/NM/UT during the summer about 18 years ago. I carried 5 - 6 quarts of water, and routinely consumed all of it. Of course, shade was rare, less than 15% of the time between 0900 - 1500, unlike >90% of the time on the Approach Trail this past Sunday. Still, though, if it starts pushing 100 degrees out there, I know that I will need some serious volumes of water to not get dehydrated.

My Katadyne pump: "Combi"; purchased 5 years ago; never used; 19 oz./550 g. weight; 0.2 micron filter pore size; 1.2 liter/1.2 quart per filling; 60 mm/2.4" width; height 265 mm/10.4"; presuming clear input water, service life before needing to change the ceramic filter -- 50,000 liters/14,000 gallons. Not exactly ultralight gear, but only around the equivalent of a pint of water weight-wise.

whcobbs
06-16-2004, 23:52
Minnesota--
Others have already given pretty good answers on reducing pack weight. Here are three sites specifically aimed at just that issue: www.thru-hiker.com ; www.backpacking.net ; and the Backpacking Light interest group at www.groups.yahoo.com. These and other sites will accept your present gear list (with individually weighed items, please), critique it, and suggest changes. The sites will also lead you to make your own light weight gear or buy it from those who have already. Most people lighten their packweight bit by bit rather than all at once. Focus first on the big three (shelter, sleep and the pack). It's a learning curve thing as much as it is the matter of finances. Just for reference, my own pack with supplies for 5 days on the AT (including food, fuel, water) weighs 18 lb. What yours should weigh you can only answer by experience.

Walt

Rain Man
06-17-2004, 01:11
6) Rainman, .... I do wish that I had had something to protect my legs, like those single-layer nylon leg-warmer-shaped pieces I have seen some thru-hikers wearing in photographs. Are these gaiters?

Yes, sounds as if you are talking about gaiters. They come in high top (almost to the knees) and low-top (just to the ankles). I'm not positive I got the terms right, but you know what I mean. Like most trail equipment, some hikers swear by them and some swear at them. LOL

And by the way, I don't know if it has been suggested already, but one method of conditioning for a thru-hike is simply to start slow on your thru-hike. In a couple of weeks you'll be well conditioned.

Too many thru-hikers start out way too fast (big mileage days) and hurt themselves quickly and have to get off the trail, while plodders pass them by, slowly BUT SURELY.

So, if you can't do a lot of fancy conditioning before hand, I'd say hit the trail anyway and do short days for a week or two. SMART.
:sun
Rain Man

.

tlbj6142
06-17-2004, 08:12
So, if you can't do a lot of fancy conditioning before hand, I'd say hit the trail anyway and do short days for a week or two.The big problem with this is you may find out you have a bad knee, or your feet are FUBAR'd. What then?

The more pre-trip hiking you do the better. Ray Jardine (our favorite ultra-light wacko) suggested 500 miles of real hiking as prep for a thru-hike. Seems a bit excessive, but the more you do before you start the better. Even if you do go slow the first couple of weeks.

If nothing else it helps you work out gear issues, "techniques" , etc. All of which can make those inital few days more enjoyable.

DogMother
06-17-2004, 10:38
1)
3) I live in extreme NE Forsyth County, about as close to Gainesville as I do to GA 400/19. Frankly, my location is more convenient to Amicalola or points on the Appalachian Trail proper to the NE than it is to jobs.
5) DogMother, I would love a bit more elaboration on what you want to share with me WRT your hiking experiences. Are you saying that the Appalachian Trail in GA is not strenuous enough to be good preparation for the AT thereafter? Anyway, more info on where to hike near Kennesaw would be much appreciated.
I didn't know where you were in GA.
If you live close to the AT, by all means use portions of that to train on. The AT in GA is sawtooth so lot's of up and downs. So any training to get your knees in shape for the downhills would be good.
Kennesaw Mt is in the city of Kennesaw. Civil War site. If you are looking at a map of GA, Kennesaw (Cobb County) is outside the perimeter (285) and slightly southwest of Forsyth Cty. Over near Marietta. For a change of pace try it.



And by the way, I don't know if it has been suggested already, but one method of conditioning for a thru-hike is simply to start slow on your thru-hike. In a couple of weeks you'll be well conditioned.
.There were a lot of people who tried it this way in '98. And most of them were too out of shape to get to a point where they were comfortable with the backpack weight and the hiking stess on legs, etc. Most of them dropped out. I dropped off at NOC but not for physical reasons. I had no problems with the physical portion of the trail which I attribute to training.
But everybody is different, just depends on your comfort level and how comfortable or uncomfortable you want to be those first 2-3 weeks.

minnesotasmith
06-17-2004, 21:34
1) So, where in Atlanta or N. GA is the best place to go buy serious hiker gear?

2) Where is NOC? I can't find it on any Appalachian Trail Maps I've found.

NotYet
06-18-2004, 08:01
The NOC is the Nantahala Outdoor Center. They are a big outfitter (mainly rafting & kayaking) that use many of the area's rivers.

The AT crosses the Nantahala River right through the NOC's headquarters in Wesser, NC which is on US 19/74. This is approximately 134 trail miles north of Springer Mountain. A lot of hikers use the NOC as a mail drop (the Thru-hikers' Companion lists the address, etc), and they have a nice gear store, restaurants, and bunks there.

A quick FYI: it's not super far from you if you decided to do any training hikes around there. The least complicated way to drive there from the Gainesville vicinity is to take 441 to Dillsboro, NC then go west on 74 to Wesser. The NOC has buildings/parking on both sides of the road; so it'll be obvious when you get to it.

Rain Man
06-18-2004, 11:24
....The NOC has buildings/parking on both sides of the road; so it'll be obvious when you get to it.

I just had to laugh at myself when I read THIS statement.

I drove to the NOC on a dark foggy night. It was NOT "obvious" when I got there in the least.

I missed it and had to turn around on that very windy road and go back. They really do lack a good "town sign" of any sort, to my recollection.

Rain Man

.

NotYet
06-18-2004, 14:51
Hey Rain Man,

You're certainly right about Wesser not being obvious! I'm not even sure if it's actually a town! :o

But coming from the East, it's not super hard to find the NOC. The road, US 19 / 74 goes down to two lanes and is very narrow. Eventually you'll pass a bridge on your right that goes across the river to a very large parking area. Still on 19 /74 just beyond the road bridge, you'll come a two-story building that houses a gear store (usually with lots if bikes and kayaks out front), a foot-bridge (the AT) and a restaurant all on the right side of the road. Across the street from these structures is a long, low building where the NOC offices are located. These buildings are all very close to the road, and this time of year there are usually lots of cars and people all over the place...making it much easier to find! Then again, I know where it is, and I've never had to look for it on a foggy night... :rolleyes:

Big Oak
06-18-2004, 18:40
What would you guys who've hiked serious percentages of the AT proper say one mile on the AT with an average pack converts to for # of miles on near-flat at home with, and without, a pack of comparable weight?
My experience is nothing you do at home really prepares you. I haven't done much of the AT, but when I've tried conditioning by jogging or other excercise, I always still find myself panting when I put on the backpack and start trucking up the mountains. Different sets of muscles and body systems at work.

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 14:05
All I have figured out so far is this:

1) I will have to carry more packweight than on a thru- that is outside the months when most winter conditions occur, so I should train for nonultralight weights.

2) The snow will make the hike more tiring for a given distance than in warmer months, so better conditioning WRT stamina in general (and going upslope in particular) will be wise.

3) Ideally starting several months before I go, living in as cold of conditions as I can manage would be wise, to help with my cold-temperature acclimitization (heat off at night in my dwelling, go minimal on coat-wearing, that sort of thing).

4) Be a little less worried (NOT completely unconcerned!) than summer hikers about knocking the excess pounds off beforehand in preparation for my hike, as long as my musculature/cardiovascular systems are doing OK. The idea is that the insulative and energy-storage aspects of some adipose make up to some degree for its negative aspects (extra weight to haul around, stress on joints/feet/cardiovascular system).

BTW, does anyone know of a online trail journal or book about someone who hiked the AT fully in winter? I found one online where the guy started in mid-late Dec., but he REALLY started pulling lots of zero days starting in about Feb., and did not hit Katahdin until at least late summer, so it's not really a parallel for what I want to do. I also read a brief reference somewhere about some guy who started his thru- in October, but never have found any more about that one.

I'm a bit worried about hitting the northern part of the AT when they restrict trail use in some stretches due to worries about hiking damage during the spring thaw; what is the exact deal on that?

vggalan
06-21-2004, 17:35
I'm a bit worried about hitting the northern part of the AT when they restrict trail use in some stretches due to worries about hiking damage during the spring thaw; what is the exact deal on that?

The Green Mountain Club recommends staying off higher elevation trails until after Memorial Day. Here's their page about it (http://www.greenmountainclub.org/mudseason.htm).

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 20:08
The GMC says Mt. Mansfield and Camel's Hump are disallowed for hiking mid-April to Memorial Day.



So, are those on the AT, or not? They're not on my App. Trail Conference strip map (3.99 at Amicalola).

MOWGLI
06-21-2004, 20:15
The GMC says Mt. Mansfield and Camel's Hump are disallowed for hiking mid-April to Memorial Day.



So, are those on the AT, or not? They're not on my App. Trail Conference strip map (3.99 at Amicalola).

They are not on the AT. They are on the Long Trail. You can't hike then because it's mud season, and you'll end up tearing up the trails. There is likely to be snow at elevation in April anyway.

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 20:20
Well, what about in March, before the spring thaw? I wanted to do part of my hike in winter, and was figuring on heading NOBO from Amicalola around New Year's 2006 (18 months from now). If I instead started out from Amicalola around, say, late Nov., I could maybe make it there by then, presuming I was in pretty good shape.

Alligator
06-21-2004, 20:46
Well, what about in March, before the spring thaw? I wanted to do part of my hike in winter, and was figuring on heading NOBO from Amicalola around New Year's 2006 (18 months from now). If I instead started out from Amicalola around, say, late Nov., I could maybe make it there by then, presuming I was in pretty good shape.

I think you answered your own question there, at least about getting there before mid-april. ;)

YMMV (and I just looked that one up the other day). Any winter hiking you do will be considerably slower than a typical thruhikers pace. Most SOBO's are finishing up around NOV. Coming from MN, you are undoubtedly, without question, familiar with longer nights. Hiking after dark is not a good idea in the cold months. So count on shorter mileage days. You could need snowshoes and/or crampons. If you happen to hit the Whites in the winter, you will need snowshoes and crampons. I know Rocket 2003 (trailjournals) was using snowshoes after leaving in Jan. from Springer. Read his journal if you expect to leave around then. Rocket got off in Harper's Ferry.

If you really want to do part of your hike in winter, start from Katahdin. :D

A-Train
06-21-2004, 20:48
There is nothing wrong with starting jan 1st, in fact its become somewhat common the past few years with a couple of people starting that early. You'll have lots of snow and cold temps to contend with but im sure you know that. No reason why you COULDN'T do it, if you were well prepared. Even the smokies can be traversed any month of the yr.

But you certainly dont want to move up the trail too quickly or start in the fall. There will most likely be a point when the snow is too deep in the north. Flyin Brian got up to Mt Greylock area in March and had to put his hike on hold because the hiking became almost impossible.

As far as the above treeline/Vermont mud season goes: Especially this yr there were a few folks that started early AND moved quick enough to be in New England ridiculously early for thru-hiker standards. Coming thru Vermont in early may is possible, but you do risk damaging the trail especially on the higher peaks like Killington and Bromley that have fragile soil. The GMC works super hard to maintain the trails and walkin on them during mud season will erode them and suck for you. Plus the bugs can be heinous.

Just be prepared and know the right times and schedule to be on to avoid problems. Good luck

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 21:00
I'll need more and thicker clothes, a proper tent, a much better sleeping bag, large snowshoes, more stove fuel, crampons, ice axe, more food, more dietary fat...

What am I forgetting here? There's something else I had in mind.

I've slept in a car with the engine off all night when it hit -22* F. actual with no sleeping bag, just good winter clothing, and worked outside all day at that same temp. range, so I'm not unfamiliar with cold, true. BTW, with snowshoes, what is the problem with winter hiking along the AT if cold isn't the issue? Snow instability on slopes slumping down on me, losing the Trail, or what?

Also, what %age of stores are open for resupply during winter? Surely all the town ones will be open, just campgrounds and hostels shut for the season, right?

Alligator
06-21-2004, 21:18
I'll need more and thicker clothes, a proper tent, a much better sleeping bag, large snowshoes, more stove fuel, crampons, ice axe, more food, more dietary fat...

What am I forgetting here? There's something else I had in mind.


If you are still hiking after March, you have to watch out for those April Fool's day storms. It gets really deep then.

Snowshoes are not usable on steep rocky climbs, there you might need to switch to the crampons. In deep snow you can lose the blazes. Snow on trees also looks like blazes. Sometimes the snow places you up in the branches which are typically over your head. Fun stuff.

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 21:24
Then, perhaps a GPS unit might not be such a bad idea, especially if I get someone to go with me (so they can carry some extra food)?

Alligator
06-21-2004, 21:38
Sherpas are great in the winter. And the young ones are good with electronics. GPS would be good, keep you near the trail, and no worry about overhead trees in the winter. Lagers boiling, must add hops...

minnesotasmith
06-21-2004, 21:43
I simply meant that if I can find a hiking companion for my thru-, that they would carry the GPS unit's weight in extra food that we would share, not that they would be a beast of burden for me. Also, I drink very little alcohol, FWIW.

NotYet
06-22-2004, 11:19
A lot of services along the trail do shut down after the "typical" NOBO season. As SOBOs finishing in late December of 2000, we never counted on all of the services being available, but all of the "grocery" stores were still open. You might call hostels ahead of time to see if they close (and if so, when they re-open for the season). BTW, the hotels that are open often have much lower rates during the winter! :)

When winter hiking, you need good winter gear and extra food; so you have to be very careful not to weigh yourself down too much. So in some ways it's even more important to assess each item carefully! When I winter hike, I make sure I have good rain coat & pants, good boots & socks, a toasty warm sleeping bag, and several layers of warm, lightweight clothes. Also, it takes longer for your water to boil; so you go through a bit more fuel.

In the Southern Appalachians, it does snow a lot, but the bigger winter challenge here is rain and slush. It's very easy to get wet and stay wet; so it's good to make sure that you have a set of long johns and a pair of socks that you keep dry no matter what! This way you'll be able to sleep dry at night.

Have a great hike, and keep training...it'll definitely help!

King Tut
06-22-2004, 12:53
I live in NC, but in the piedmont with few hills. I walked and carried the pack, etc., but I also trained my core for a solid month before a section hike and not once did my back hurt me.

Here's the workout: Start with 10 seconds each exercise and progress. I eventually got to a minute. Brutal but works.

Lie down, belly down and hold legs up and arms out in front (called a Superman)
Next, get on elbows and toes, body straight.
Next, same but right arm out.
Next, right arm down, left arm out
Next, both arms down right leg up
Next, both arms down right leg down, left leg up
Next, right arm up left leg up (hard)
Next, left arm up right leg up
Next, left arm and leg up, right arm and leg down
Next, right arm and leg up, left arm and leg down
Sit-ups galore

Let me know how this works. This is wonderful for section hikers, especially. Thru-hikers will naturally build endurance in the torso (core), so it is really not necessary unless you hit the trail at big miles.

King Tut

King Tut
06-22-2004, 12:56
Read my entry at #55. It's about training more than mileage. Tut

minnesotasmith
06-23-2004, 00:51
Well, if I leave on my thru around Dec. 20, and hike at what is an average pace for hikers leaving in March, when will I run out of snow as I head north? My guess is somewhere in Virginia. I KNOW that snow on the ground will slow me down, from making hiking harder to probably several times having to hole up and wait for the weather to be less insane. I know, too, that winter will make me carry more stuff than I would otherwise. Still, I plan to be in above-average shape, to take rather fewer zero days, and to pay close attention to the accumulated wisdom here and on sister sites about how to
still hike with a pretty light packweight. Rocket over at www.trailjournals.com (http://www.trailjournals.com) had a PW of which he could have been relatively proud had he hit the trail in March, and he started about Jan. 2.

Tater
06-23-2004, 01:16
Well, if I leave on my thru around Dec. 20
Be prepared for some -0 nights in the smokies.

tlbj6142
06-23-2004, 08:48
Well, if I leave on my thru around Dec. 20, and hike at what is an average pace for hikers leaving in March, when will I run out of snow as I head north?You realize that you might not even see much snow. I hiked through the Smokies on Jan 2-5th and it was 55F and sunny.

While I'd expect that you will run into snow from time to time, don't expect 12" on the ground from Springer to Damascus. The day time temps can stay quite warm until mid January.

Late Janurary and February will be the coldest/snowiest months.

Check out www.weatherunderground.com (http://www.weatherunderground.com/). They give seasonal averages for temps, rainfall, snowfall, etc.

Ex. Damascus, VA gets (average) 4" of snow in January and 7" in February. Even if you double those numbers for Thomas Knob, it only 8" and 14" in an entire month. Not exactly a lot of snow.

minnesotasmith
06-23-2004, 10:18
But, when I read Rocket's trail journal yesterday, he repeatedly mentioned having to deal with 4" - 12" of snow on the Trail for long distances, periodically encountering waist-high drifts. I figure if I start my thru- anytime before Feb. 1 without snowshoes, I'm likely to either have to hole up multiple times for multiple days waiting on snow to melt some, or to get in real trouble, not being able to go forwards or backwards worth beans. The impression I get about "postholing", walking through waist-high snow, is that it is at least as hard as carrying a 60+pound pack; not completely impossible, but hard as Hades, and NOT a reasonable "Plan A". PHing is something I never had to do in MN/WI; either I went around, stayed inside for the most part until the snow melted some, shoveled a path, or there just was hardly ever that much snow at one time.

tlbj6142
06-23-2004, 10:36
I'm not saying you won't get any snow, but don't be dissapointed if its only 4" deep or none at all until Jan/Feb.

Take your snowshoes, I'm sure you'll need them at somepoint, but I doubt you'll need them everyday.

Have fun.

minnesotasmith
06-23-2004, 11:04
What do you think about my hauling crampons and/or an ice axe?

tlbj6142
06-23-2004, 11:18
Ice axes are typically for cutting steps and for self arrest. While I'm no expert in "winters in southern AT", I seriously doubt you'll need an ice axe. Unless you just want to carry one to look cool.:D

I used Stablicers (strap on traction devices) while hiking across some ice patches in the Smokies. So, I suspect you will need some sort of ice traction device. Full crampons are probably overkill. Do you snow shoes provide ice traction? Would they work on a mix of ice and rocks? If not, I'd get the lightest crampons available, or some simple "in-step" crampons.

If you do a bit of searching on this board you can find 2-3 threads on winter hiking in the Smokies. They may give you more information from more knowledgable sources than myself.

Here is one of the threads, I know there was at least 1 more on the subject...

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2060

steve hiker
06-23-2004, 11:24
I section hiked the Smokies this past winter in early January, and there was this stretch from just past Cosby Knob to Peck's (sobo) that was about 2 feet deep with soft snow. It was postholing the whole way. I'd take a step and my foot would break through the snow, lift my leg out the hole and take another step, repeat, very slow going. Don't know whether snowshoes would have helped, as I've never used them before. But the snow can get pretty deep up there in the winter.

minnesotasmith
06-23-2004, 11:48
"there was this stretch from just past Cosby Knob to Peck's (sobo) that was about 2 feet deep with soft snow. It was postholing the whole way."

About how long was that section in time or miles?

smokymtnsteve
06-23-2004, 11:51
14 miles..

minnesotasmith
06-24-2004, 11:56
If I leave Amicalola on, say, Dec. 20, and hike at what is an average pace for March-starting NOBOs, when will I probably run out of 1) snow, 2) any need to keep hauling my winter gear? I know it won't be until after Mt. Rogers, and surely it will be by the time I hit Maryland.

NotYet
06-24-2004, 21:43
The temperatures & snow amounts in the Southern Appalachians fluctuate dramatically. In 2000, Dec 16 was warm enough to produce severe thunderstorms, torrential rain and a powerful hail storm (this of course made all of the snow disappear). A few days later on Dec 20, I woke up at Gooch Gap to a temperature of -8 degrees F and then waded through many patches of thigh high snow drifts before arriving at Springer.

I don't think I would lug snow shoes around down here because it's not my personal preference. But if you've got them and don't mind the weight, you might get some good use out of them. You could be taking them off and putting them back on a lot because the snow isn't usually super deep...but it can be!

I do a lot of winter hiking in NC & Tenn and I do usually take "ice-steppers"...these aren't actually crampons, but they are very light. They strap onto your boots and the metal prongs in your in-step give you traction on the ice. Which I find to be very helpful!

Groucho
06-24-2004, 22:49
Well, if I leave on my thru around Dec. 20, and hike at what is an average pace for hikers leaving in March, when will I run out of snow as I head north? My guess is somewhere in Virginia. I KNOW that snow on the ground will slow me down, from making hiking harder to probably several times having to hole up and wait for the weather to be less insane. I know, too, that winter will make me carry more stuff than I would otherwise. Still, I plan to be in above-average shape, to take rather fewer zero days, and to pay close attention to the accumulated wisdom here and on sister sites about how to
still hike with a pretty light packweight. Rocket over at www.trailjournals.com (http://www.trailjournals.com) had a PW of which he could have been relatively proud had he hit the trail in March, and he started about Jan. 2.
[/url]

[URL=http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/historical_va.html]This site (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4433) has seasonal snowfall averages for NC, TN and VA. Snowfall varies a lot from year to year, and similar elevations may have big differences in yearly average. At this site: Damascus 22"; Burkes Garden 47"; Big Meadows in Shen. 48; etc. There are years that amounts are very small; you realize there must be years when it is really piled up. Snow pack usually does not last very long though.

Weather Carrot has posted his incredible snowfall charts (http://friends.backcountry.net/snowmaps/) for the AT.

Believe it or not, hikers used to start in early March without cold weather clothing; maybe they still do