View Full Version : Wool: Your Opinion
drastic_quench
04-18-2009, 13:36
Aside from socks, tell me about wool. Do you carry any wool clothing? Does it beat out fleece for any of you? Is it worth its weight in your view?
I was thinking of using a homemade wool serape/poncho in place of either a down jacket or fleece layer. It's thinner than a sweater - more like scarf thickness. It's core-warming, but the open sides allow plenty of ventilation too.
Feral Bill
04-18-2009, 13:45
Wools two major disadvantages are: 1. Often not machine washable (less true now than in the past) 2. A bit heavier for the same warmth.
Advantages: 1. Wears well 2. Doesn't stink 3. Repels dirt 4. Feels better. 5. In good knit sweaters breaths better. 6. Looks great.
I use both, and as an old timer lean to wool. Objectively, I do not see a clear winner.
I wore a Smartwool Zip-top last summer on the CDT. It was great. I also really like my Smartwool socks. I don't use much wool while backpacking otherwise. It tends to be heavier and takes a whole lot longer to dry.
I think your serape/poncho would work but would be heavier than other choices. Of course, you are the only one that needs to be happy with it!
johnnybgood
04-18-2009, 14:37
When it comes to warmth and comfort obviously wool is better hands down. For example , Omni wool socks can't be beat , ditto for wool cap which insulates well and feels mighty warm , especially on cold and windy days.
Fleece on the other hand is lighter material and is better suited as a middle layer or as an outer layer that can be taken off when the core body temp regulates itself.
I agree with Feral Bill in using both but also experimenting to see what you personally like best.
I am very fond of my Thorlo Light Hiker socks.
My best socks ever were "Scotch socks" from the store at Skagit Valley Community College, Washington State, purchased years ago. The label said Hawick, Scotland.
The socks had doubled heels under the heel and extending right up the achilles heel. They were, overall, double-twist yarn and rough, but not harsh or itchy-scratchy.
Those socks never scrunched down in my Raichle boots, back then.
The socks never smelled bad. The longest one-use was an eighteen day hike in the North Cascades. No problems.
I especially like my wool and silk longjohns from The Silk Company mail order catalogue. I can't find that mail order catalogue, but the longjohns are still as good as new. The second runner-up woolen longjohns are my "itchy-scratchies" from Eddie Bauer, now called Stanfield's Red Label (Canada).
I had an alpaca "wrap" that I would wrap around my core, for wet and cold coastal Oregon mountains, before I got in the bitter dry cold weather of Montana. For the weight, alpaca has more value than most woolens, however alpaca can be too warm, unless inactive. I would not purchase a fitted-garment.
I have an Icelandic wool sweater that is much too warm except for the coldest and wettest conditions, and then, it is in it's element. Mine, is not "brushed" and it has never worn out.
Yes! wool! That said, I have Windstopper fleece vests, one fleece shirt with a mock turtleneck and a half zip.
I also have a fleece jacket with a zipper that goes up the collar. I tried fleece bibs: my verdict, too bulky.
I would rather have Remington brushed hunting bibs "soft, quiet and lightweight" as an outer layer, for winter conditions, for snowshoeing and snow slogging in my Sorel -50 boots. These bibs and full front zip jacket is water shedding. It is breathable. It is a modified fleece.
a side note: avoid hard finish nylon even only as trim. I don't like painfully cold hard nylon fabric. I have a sleeping bag I like for cold weather that has a brushed surface on the inside layer. It makes all the difference.
Hikes in Rain
04-18-2009, 17:13
Wools two major disadvantages are: 1. Often not machine washable (less true now than in the past) 2. A bit heavier for the same warmth.
Advantages: 1. Wears well 2. Doesn't stink 3. Repels dirt 4. Feels better. 5. In good knit sweaters breaths better. 6. Looks great.
I use both, and as an old timer lean to wool. Objectively, I do not see a clear winner.
Also, warm when soaking wet.
I've got wool shirts older than some of you guys!
Including the one in this picture:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=6269&catid=member&imageuser=424
Its got a couple moth holes now, but still finds a way into my pack. Much less bulky than fleece, but not as warm.
But what looks better? Not much. Perhaps a serape.
from:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Outdoor-Writings/intro-to-snowshoeing.html
SIDE NOTE: Wool vs Fleece (or Wool vs Synthetics)
There has been a bit of resurgence in the use of wool for backcountry use (esp in base layers). So what to use? It honestly does not matter for most people; it comes down to personal preference. As long as you do not use cotton, you should be fine. Many people use a combo of wool and synthetics (esp in winter). If you are curious of the pros and cons of each, here is my personal take:
Wool
Warm when damp
Can be inexpensive (thrift stores, surplus) or expensive (Smartwool, Ibex, etc)
Tends to breathe better than synthetics
More durable
Less odor
Takes longer to dry when wet (and becomes heavier)
Usually bulkier and heavier than comparable synthetics or fleece
Synthetics or Fleece
Dries quicker (but is not warm when damp)
For base layers, good ole' polypro can be ridiculously cheap
Usually less heavy and bulky than the wool equivalent
Can get a pungent odor
So what do I use?
For winter use, when I am more concerned about warmth than weight (and I am wearing most of my layers), I tend to favor wool base layers (except for the liner socks) as it is more forgiving of sweating I find. A wool hat tends to be warmer if it gets damp in snow vs a fleece hat as well. A surplus wool sweater is now my warm layer of choice, too. In the cold, dry conditions of Colorado, I find wool works very well overall.
In three season backpacking, when weight and bulk is a chief a concern (and most of my layers are stowed), I tend to wear synthetics. Any moisture in spring through fall tends to be rain (or very wet snow), so the quick drying properties of synthetics comes in handy.
Overall, you may find one combo works better than another based on your budget, availability of what you may already have or just personal preference.
...Synthetics or Fleece
Dries quicker (but is not warm when damp)
Excellent post Mags, as always. I especially like your planning guides for the PCT (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-Hiking-documents/PCT-Info.html) and the CDT (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-Hiking-documents/cdt_doc.html)
However, I think that most synthetics and fleece are relatively warm when damp, certainly compared to cotton. A wind layer is more important when using synthetics compared to quality wool garments, but at the end of a long, wet day I'd much rather be wearing synthetics and fleece, because if they're soaked I can wring/fling the water out of them and feel warm even when damp: I can even get in my sleeping bag that way and dry the rest of the way and soon be toasty and dry.
As usual, it's all about trade offs.
Wool - good stuff: keeping hundreds of thousands of sheep warm
I've yet to see an animal wearing fleece
re: Fleece/synthetics
Hmm, I think synthetics just dry quicker more so than are warm when damp..hence why the feel warm.. But, would not be the first time my perception is not reality. ;)
re: Not too many sheeps wearing fleece
True. But I have not seen too many sheep with opposable thumbs who have invented fleece either. ;)
Honestly, I do not think one is better than the other. I just take a different tool for a different job...
We need them all. I like wool (shirts and hats), down (jackets, bags & quilts), & synthetics (shells, raingear)
Smartwool socks are great. Very little odor and fast drying while resisting deformation. I used the old ragg style wool socks for a few years before I discovered the Smartwool and they were nice but stretched out easily. As for sweaters and that type of thing, I love the comfort of fleece too much I guess...
bigcranky
04-18-2009, 20:37
My opinion is that I love wool as a base layer. I have short sleeve and ling sleeve tops in various weights (Ibex, Icebreaker), and light wool long john bottoms and boxer briefs (Icebreaker), and wool socks in different heights (Smartwool Adrenaline Light). Wamr when it's cool, cool when it's warm, and they never, ever start to stink.
As for replacing fleece, well, not so much. Any wool layer that's warm enough to be an insulating layer is too heavy IMHO. Down is what replaced fleece in my pack.
Feral Bill
04-18-2009, 21:57
Thinking about it for a while, if I had to choose one, I would definitly go with wool. I'm still trying to talk my wife into making me a Harris Tweed hiking jacket. Wish me luck!
Wool, hands down. I routinely shop the second hand stores for wool shirts, sweaters and pants. Even lightweight summer wool dress pants can be modified to make serviceable hiking pants.
Wool is sustainable, fleece is not.
HeartFire
04-19-2009, 07:14
Smartwool can be thrown in the washing machine and dryer without any shrinkage.
Wool is warm when wet, I fell in a creek not long ago, it was 39* out, I happen to be wearing smartwool long johns (top and bottom) I stayed very warm even though I was dripping wet.
The biggest problem is the stuff does not dry out quickly.
4eyedbuzzard
04-19-2009, 07:38
...Wool is sustainable, fleece is not.
If we replaced all the synthetic fleece garments that are manufactured with wool ones, how "sustainable" would wool be? That's a lot of sheep, and sheep food, and sheep water, and sheep poop, and sheep land, and sheep barns, and...:-?
Much of the synthetic fleece made is manufactured from recycled materials (soda bottles and fibers) and the synthetic fleece itself can be recycled.
I just don't think the issue is as simple as one is sustainable and one is not. There are very few things that are truly sustainable given the needs of almost 7 billion humans.
If we replaced all the synthetic fleece garments that are manufactured with wool ones, how "sustainable" would wool be? That's a lot of sheep, and sheep food, and sheep water, and sheep poop, and sheep land, and sheep barns, and...:-?
Much of the synthetic fleece made is manufactured from recycled materials (soda bottles and fibers) and the synthetic fleece itself can be recycled.
I just don't think the issue is as simple as one is sustainable and one is not. There are very few things that are truly sustainable given the needs of almost 7 billion humans.
Do you know anything about "peak oil"?
Recycling is admirable, and I know where polypro comes from. I wasn't referring to recycling but to the bio-sustainability of the natural fiber wool. I've yet to see polyfleece growing on ANYTHING.
Wool can come from other animals besides sheep.
4eyedbuzzard
04-19-2009, 08:45
Do you know anything about "peak oil"?
Yes. And the overall situation and long-term sustainability problems of human population growth, development, and consumption isn't as simple as replacing petroleum based products with agriculturally based ones. Agriculture and especialy the raising of livestock have their own unsustainable impacts as well, like large scale agriculture to support animal feed (add energy and manufactured product requirements and their impacts), ground water depletion, deforestation, agricultural pollution, etc. And from a short-term sustainability standpoint, even animal fibers are far less efficiently produced than fibers produced directly from plants themselves (feed, water, energy, impact, etc).
Human population growth and development drives consumption. Technology has driven population growth but hasn't advanced equally on the efficiency and management (sustainability) side of the equation. And consumption in excess of what advances in technology can sustainably manage based upon available resources is what ultimately drives that unsustainability. Given current population growth and development rates, and the rate of efficiency gains in technology, there is no truly sustainable solution by any available means--and that includes agriculturally based products.
I'm just saying it just isn't as simple as replacing one with the other, because ultimately, our species is quite simply breeding itself into an unsustainable situation regardless of consumer choices.
This forum is about backpacking gear, not the sustainability of natural resources.
For main insulating layers, wool sweater and fleece pants. For base layers, usually wool but sometimes polyester or silk are better. My baselayers remain in my pack mostly, and polyester or silk is better for something that spends most time in the pack. Mid winter I bring long wool combis as a baselayer in addition to silk or polyester skin layer, and can mix and even wear it all if it gets extreme. Also in extreme winter I have a fleece hoody for over the wool sweater. My wind/rain layers are nylon. You can more easily add and remove nylon wind layers over wool without worrying about it getting saturated. You can wear your fleece over your wool instead of your wind layer also, for wind and also for snow. Year round, I think a mix of wool and fleece main layers and various skin layers is best. For hats and neck tubes and mitts/gloves same thing, but for socks, wool.
I use cotton flannel for my short boxers or boxer briefs. If they get wet I take them off and wear something else or nothing. One pair of cotton flannel boxers or boxer briefs is hygenic and easy enough to manage. Perhaps someday I might spring $40 for icebreaker wool boxers or boxer briefs, but not any day soon.
As a rule I carry just enough layers for the coldest that month can get. When all layers are worn for such an extreme I think they should provide even coverage on all parts, but when delayering for the other 95% of the time, you can delayer unevenly. The wool tends to be the stuff I keep on. The fleece and other synthetics tend to be the stuff I take off.
I'll take the warmest wool sweater that will not be too warm hiking or skiing on a sunny day with just shorts, and then add on the other layers as it gets colder. In summer the wool sweater might be a 8oz merino sweater $20 on sale. In Spring/Fall it tends to be something medium weight like 16oz and hand-knit with a British type wool. In winter it can be even heavier, but it depends on what I have and what other layers I have for choices. In winter a fleece hoody over the wool sweater is nice sometimes, in which case the wool sweater can't be too heavy.
This forum is about backpacking gear, not the sustainability of natural resources.Sustainability IS an important factor in choosing backpacking gear.
Whether choosing wool or synthetic, the most import thing I think is not to buy too much stuff if you already have stuff. Giving it away for re-use or re-cycling is nice, but inevitably too much clothing is ending up in landfills. Other than that I think wool is currently more sustainable. There isn't that much recycling going on with clothing. Alot of the recycling that does go on ends up in products that don't serve any real purpose. Alot more research and development needs to go into sustainable clothing. Until then, the most responsible thing is not to buy any clothing you don't need, to shop at used clothing stores first, and get as much use as you can out of all the clothing you have. Also don't wash wool or other clothes too much so they will last longer.
SUSTAINABILITY SHOULD ALWAYS BE A CONSIDERATION
Thanks for the social lecture. Sustainability isn't really on my criteria list for gear & apparel. Quality, performance, weight, cost, warmth, availability, bulk, color, fit, and comfort are
Well then just shut the **** up.
Don't talk about sustainability if you don't want to.
Well then just shut the **** up.
You once again show how rude you are. You aren't worth the fight.
You were rude by ending a perfectly legitimate discussion,
So **** off.
hoz and 4eyedbuzzard both had good points.
Egads was pointless.
We have to stop dragging our knuckles on these issues.
Aside from socks, tell me about wool. Do you carry any wool clothing? Does it beat out fleece for any of you? Is it worth its weight in your view?
I was thinking of using a homemade wool serape/poncho in place of either a down jacket or fleece layer. It's thinner than a sweater - more like scarf thickness. It's core-warming, but the open sides allow plenty of ventilation too.best thing out there! up in the high country cant beat it.ky
When taking my daughter and some of her friends with another parent on day hikes I used to bring along a blue foam pad for them all to sit on when stopping for lunch, but now I just bring a couple of wool blankets and lay down my poncho first it the ground is really wet. The heavier wool blanket can go right down on snow though. It isn't so much heavier but knit from a coarser fiber, and somewhat tighter woven. The other one is somewhat lighter for the same warmth. They work well together. A fleece balnket works well in combination with a wool blanket also.
I think the serape/poncho idea is a good one, if you also intend to use it for sleeping or picnic gear. By being open on the sides, it isn't as efficient for warmth when walking, but it doesn't need to be as long as it is efficient and functional for some other purpose, like sleeping. If in summer you want to leave you sleeping bag home because its 3 pounds and you don't have a summer one, then something like a wool serape/poncho would be fun to mess around with.
Rocketman
04-19-2009, 11:30
I like wool and especially merino wools. I have found that in light weights, such as in SmartWool Tshirts, they don't seem to last me long.
There are either tears or mothholes that develop after a few wearings and laundering.
A salesman at a major clothing store suggested that I buy medium weight merino wool sweaters on closeout at the end of winter season for around $20 each. If they are washed in those sweater bags, they don't develop tears in the washing machine (gentile, cold) and last for quite a long time. Of course, he added that this is what he does.
At the moment, besides the cost, the durability of soft merino wool sweaters prevents me from more use.
Wool socks seen to be mostly immune from these same issues, and I use a lot of wool socks.
i like wool socks and i have a long sleeved icebreaker top. i occasionally carry or wear a wool sweater from goodwill. i like wool, but won't pay $50 for a tshirt made out of it. nor do i find it worth the cost, for me, for my legs. i keep my legs in synthetics
I like wool and especially merino wools. I have found that in light weights, such as in SmartWool Tshirts, they don't seem to last me long.
There are either tears or mothholes that develop after a few wearings and laundering.
A salesman at a major clothing store suggested that I buy medium weight merino wool sweaters on closeout at the end of winter season for around $20 each. If they are washed in those sweater bags, they don't develop tears in the washing machine (gentile, cold) and last for quite a long time. Of course, he added that this is what he does.
At the moment, besides the cost, the durability of soft merino wool sweaters prevents me from more use.
Wool socks seen to be mostly immune from these same issues, and I use a lot of wool socks.I have got alot of $20 merino and other wool sweaters at places like Mardens and Winners and TJMax and Marshalls and sometimes at LLBean outlet but a little more than $20. All generally light weight, but some heavier than others, and some with short zips and some with a lower crew neck.
Quality and durability have varied. Some have gotten holes. Some have shrunk a little too much. Now I always try and get them a bit loose and if they do shrink they might still be a good skin layer. Some have become favourites and are very durable. Some have been trashed. Success rate is about 50% I would say, but they all get some use. Maybe I've bough 10 over the past 7 years.
One favourite was from LLBean Outlet, and yeah it does seem more durable. It is also a bit looser and longer which is nice, especially in summer. My favourite for a skin layer is a light one with a crew neck which is not all that durable but durable enough for a skin layer. I have some that fit somewhere in between which are also nice, some with zips and some not. I wear a wool sweater and shorts pretty much every day, whether hiking or not. The one I am wearing now is a medium hand-knit sweater of a british type wool all made in Prince Edward Island. It was $100 but I love it. Its about 16-20oz so heavier than it needs to be for summer, but not uncomfortable indoors or out.
I very rarely wear an undershirt under my wool sweater. My wife doesn't like it but she has learned to tollerate it until she can actually smell it, which can take quite a few wearings if I rotate my sweaters between wearings. I think if you wear it one day then put it back on the shelf the smell goes away without having to be washed. I can usually wait until I sweat heavy in them or get them dirty outside before I wash them. When they get washed its the very gentle cycle in the washing machine, which is basically just a soak with a swish swish now and then. Its a supersized washer which helps also I think. Then they just get hung flat on this drying rack. They seem pretty dry coming out, but that is because good wool feels only damp when wet. It still needs to dry, and often needs to be dried flat. Some of the tougher wool sweaters can be hung.
I haven't tried wool boxers, because of the price. Where they would need to be washed more often I think I might stick with cotton flannel for my short boxers or boxer briefs, and polyester long. For winter I do have a set of 100% wool Stanfield combis, and they seem to be holding up fine to several washings, but don't get used as often as short boxers would.
Anyone with experience on how long icebreaker boxers last?
Wool vs. synthetics in a green friendly manner is a rube's game.
Synthetics uses petroleum based distillates. Wool? Well,a lot of earthy, crunchy people will tell you more than you ever want to know about industrial ranching. :O
Best summary of this er..discussion was on a ski site:
There are environmental issues with wool vs synthetics, but enviro-yammer about clothing is frequently overblown and takes on the flavor of green washing PR speak. Wool is “natural,” but sheep farms take land, and ranching is not exactly wilderness preservation. Synthetics are made with chemicals that are usually not biodegradable and require more industrial infrastructure (I’d rather see a ranch then a chemical plant). Both sheep fur and petro thread require energy for manufacture, raw material supply, and product shipping. In the end, I’d guess both products probably have virtually equal environmental impact, so I’m not worrying about it.
Six of one/half dozen of the other.
If you really want to continue to show off your green friendly side, I am sure you can find hours of fun on usenet groups. ;)
In the end, I'll saybone is really not better than the other.
Does it keep you warm? Does it allow you to hike?
The rest are just details.
Overall, you may find one combo works better than another based on your budget, availability of what you may already have or just personal preference.
Take what works for you and realize there is no one best of any piece of gear. Also realize (repeat after me) gear is the least important part of hiking. ;)
I agree that both options might not be sustainable, but that should not be a call for indifference.
If anything it should be a call for action.
We have to stop dragging our knuckles on these issues.
So what should we do? First and foremost, buy less.
Don't replace nearly as good gear and clothing with better stuff until you really need to.
If something really sucks, then yeah, trash it, but squeeze you left nut really hard for buying it.
You just can't take a monster truck attitude and apply it to hiking.
You have to be willing to learn something from Nature.
Otherwise, what's the point?
I agree that both options might not be sustainable, but that should not be a call for indifference.
If anything it should be a call for action.
We have to stop dragging our knuckles on these issues.
Good for you. I suggest you start a different thread then if this idea means so much to you. :)
Notice I did not say shut up, just trying to keep this discussion focused on the original question. The OP gets to have his question answered; the debate society can prove what smart cookies they are. Everyone wins! :banana
Seriously. Please start another thread if the discussion means so much to you. I've done it myself in the past on other issues and it seems to work well for everyone. I appreciate your consideration. Thanks! (Not the moderator, just a user here)
Well, I had no idea when I wrote that one simple sentence "Wool is sustainable, fleece is not", it would lead to such a donnybrook. I don't intend to get into a debate on environmentalism, or whether or not the use of wool is better for the planet. Time will take care of that.
Maybe we'll see, maybe our children.
But it's a fact polypropylene comes from oil, while sheep graze on herbs and forbs and they aren't raised in pens, or barns like cattle or pigs. To try and equate wool production with feedlot agriculture is misleading and just plain wrong.
Seriously. Please start another thread if the discussion means so much to you. I've done it myself in the past on other issues and it seems to work well for everyone. I appreciate your consideration. Thanks! (Not the moderator, just a user here)
..AND I made it really easy, too:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=823870#post823870
Please, consider arguing there. Thanks!
Aside from socks, tell me about wool. Do you carry any wool clothing? Does it beat out fleece for any of you? Is it worth its weight in your view?
I was thinking of using a homemade wool serape/poncho in place of either a down jacket or fleece layer. It's thinner than a sweater - more like scarf thickness. It's core-warming, but the open sides allow plenty of ventilation too.Here is the original post.
I don't see where it precludes sustainability as one of the considerations.
That's not a bad idea though, opening the other thread, because its an interesting question that doesn't have an easy answer. Cheers.
I like wool for:
Socks
Mid weight Liner Gloves (Ragg Wool) with a windproof Mitten for when it's really cold.
Sometimes I like a wool hat
My new purchase this year was Terramar Thermawool base layer. 100% Merino wool. I find them a little bit itchy when it's too warm for them, such as inside a sleeping bag. A few weeks ago I used them while snowshoeing at about 6000 feet near Lake Tahoe. Sank through the snow into thigh deep water at one point and continued hiking for another couple hours. It was reasonably pleasant temps, about 30* to 35* and due to the wool socks and wool underwear, I remained very comfortable. Even taking a break was pleasant. Not sure my normal polypro longjohns would have worked as well.
Wool is good.
Mid weight Liner Gloves (Ragg Wool) with a windproof Mitten for when it's really cold.
.
That's my combo of choice as well...be it three season backpacking or ski touring. Definitely a great KISS tip...
I have a Peruvian type Alpaca hat with ear flaps and a matching Alpaca neck tube which is an awesome combination. For mitts I like hand knit British type wool. Mine are Briggs & Little Wool, either Heritage or Tuffy. They are awesome. If Tuffy then they are actually a wool nylon blend. I haven't made a nylon overmitt yet, but they are great even in wind and rain and very durable also. Best mitts ever.
I prefer wool over petro-fabrics for active base and mid-layers.
I use a SmartWool T, or a TerraMar Zip-Neck as a base layer, then use a nice Shetland wool sweater from the thrift shop as a mid-layer. They are warm, have a wider comfort range, and don't stink like fleece.
I have a cashmere sweater-vest (thrift-shop) that I use with silk long johns for camp-wear and sleeping.
And I use wool for hats and socks.
I use down or prima-loft for heavy insulating layers for winter camping.
In summer, I prefer SILK Hawaiian shirts to hike in.
In summer, I prefer SILK Hawaiian shirts to hike in.
I've got several of those for summer also. People have something to say when I show up for an outing in one.