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Mrs Baggins
04-20-2009, 15:37
Three of us just did a very nice 3 day, 2 night hike in SNP. When we were getting our permit at Dickey Ridge the ranger was hesitant to hand it over when we said we'd be staying at Pass Mt Hut the first night. He said "we like to keep that just for the thru-hikers." I smiled politely and said I knew that the bulk of them were still a long way south and wouldn't be needing it right now. Then he said "well you know it's close to the road and partiers like to fill it up over the weekend." So.......we as legitimate hikers needing the shelter for legitimate reasons were being discouraged from using it BUT weekend partiers off the road? Hey, no problem. We used the shelter - only 4 other people showed up, all hikers, none thruing, and it was no problem. Then there's the "no fires" rule. We spent the next night on Jeremy's Run Trail. We didn't have a fire, but apparently everybody else was! We could see and smell the smoke. Next day as we hiked past them their sites we could still see the smoldering and one family had quite the big blaze going. Not a ranger in sight. I won't take the "lack of staffing" argument - the "staff" we saw, 5 other rangers at the visitor's center, were standing around smokin' and jokin' in the parking lot with no particular hurry to be anywhere.

And dogs on the trail in National Parks? Passed one guy, big fully loaded pack on the AT, with his very large German Shepherd also carrying a pack, and happily hiking sobo down the trail. Does that rule apply only to the Smokies?

Rain Man
04-20-2009, 15:40
And dogs on the trail in National Parks? Passed one guy, big fully loaded pack on the AT, with his very large German Shepherd also carrying a pack, and happily hiking sobo down the trail. Does that rule apply only to the Smokies?

I think the Smokies and Baxter State Park, as I recall.

Rain:sunMan

.

kyhipo
04-20-2009, 15:46
Three of us just did a very nice 3 day, 2 night hike in SNP. When we were getting our permit at Dickey Ridge the ranger was hesitant to hand it over when we said we'd be staying at Pass Mt Hut the first night. He said "we like to keep that just for the thru-hikers." I smiled politely and said I knew that the bulk of them were still a long way south and wouldn't be needing it right now. Then he said "well you know it's close to the road and partiers like to fill it up over the weekend." So.......we as legitimate hikers needing the shelter for legitimate reasons were being discouraged from using it BUT weekend partiers off the road? Hey, no problem. We used the shelter - only 4 other people showed up, all hikers, none thruing, and it was no problem. Then there's the "no fires" rule. We spent the next night on Jeremy's Run Trail. We didn't have a fire, but apparently everybody else was! We could see and smell the smoke. Next day as we hiked past them their sites we could still see the smoldering and one family had quite the big blaze going. Not a ranger in sight. I won't take the "lack of staffing" argument - the "staff" we saw, 5 other rangers at the visitor's center, were standing around smokin' and jokin' in the parking lot with no particular hurry to be anywhere.

And dogs on the trail in National Parks? Passed one guy, big fully loaded pack on the AT, with his very large German Shepherd also carrying a pack, and happily hiking sobo down the trail. Does that rule apply only to the Smokies?understand seen people with dogs at that shelter,just let their dogs drink out of the spring!like we dont give a fk,like You my buddy dont hike,so dont take your mut down here and drink in our spring,or atleast have enough respect and take them down stream a little,regular snp bull****.ky

zoidfu
04-20-2009, 15:52
I think you can have a dog as long as it's leashed at all times.

zoidfu
04-20-2009, 15:54
I was there in January and 2 plainclothes rangers walked up on us at the Gravel Spring Hut. I was surprised, I didn't think they ever left their vehicles or the visitor center. I was with 3 other friends and they thought they had something for sure but we were on the up and up and they just chatted with us for about a half hour.

tenbeer
04-20-2009, 16:00
I didn't think their was a leash law in SNP? I'm pretty sure dogs are allowed.

FlyPaper
04-20-2009, 16:09
I was there in January and 2 plainclothes rangers walked up on us at the Gravel Spring Hut. I was surprised, I didn't think they ever left their vehicles or the visitor center. I was with 3 other friends and they thought they had something for sure but we were on the up and up and they just chatted with us for about a half hour.

A few years back we were approached by a ranger while at Gravel Spring Hut. It's not far from the road, so I suppose they visit it often.

In all fairness, we didn't have a permit. Somehow we missed the fact that we needed one. The ranger didn't give us the least amount of grief. I think it was clear to him we were legitimate hikers. Had we been the "weekend partying" crowd, my guess is he'd have come down hard on us for not having a permit.

tenbeer
04-20-2009, 16:20
A few years back we were approached by a ranger while at Gravel Spring Hut. It's not far from the road, so I suppose they visit it often.

In all fairness, we didn't have a permit. Somehow we missed the fact that we needed one. The ranger didn't give us the least amount of grief. I think it was clear to him we were legitimate hikers. Had we been the "weekend partying" crowd, my guess is he'd have come down hard on us for not having a permit.
I think things have changed since. I dropped my friend off at rockfish gap in late winter. He is a legitimate hiker. I warned him to register. He is also a stubborn hiker. He did not heed my advice and received a $50.00 fine. I also talked to hikers last year who received a ticket for not hanging a bear bag at the shelter. I believe things have gotten stricter. Also with federal funding dropping in natl parks, this is a source of revenue.

CrumbSnatcher
04-20-2009, 16:21
enforced leash laws i know:
Road crossing
Towns
Amicalola falls state park
southern & northern boundary of grayson highlands?
BRP/SNP
caledonia state park
pine grove furnace state park
bear mtn. state park
and a million other places, use good judgement.
Dogs are not allowed in the smokies, zoo,or BSP

Mrs Baggins
04-20-2009, 16:29
I didn't think their was a leash law in SNP? I'm pretty sure dogs are allowed.

This dog was not on a leash. No leash anywhere in sight. The hiker would just reach down now and then and hold the dog by the dog's pack. I was trying to hike ahead of the guy and the dog kept blocking me so that his owner could pass. That dog came up to my waist - I'm not real tall. I'm not afraid of dogs, but someone who is would definitely have been afraid of this one. The owner said "I'm taking him out on the trail to break him of some bad habits." Gee, thanks.

emerald
04-20-2009, 16:31
See ATC's Hiking with Dogs (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805495/k.9C34/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm) for a partial list and other pertinent information.

Hike the Trail (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805465/k.9760/Hike_the_Trail.htm) > Plan a Hike (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4914767/k.8C6B/Plan_a_Hike.htm) > Hiking with Dogs

tenbeer
04-20-2009, 16:42
This dog was not on a leash. No leash anywhere in sight. The hiker would just reach down now and then and hold the dog by the dog's pack. I was trying to hike ahead of the guy and the dog kept blocking me so that his owner could pass. That dog came up to my waist - I'm not real tall. I'm not afraid of dogs, but someone who is would definitely have been afraid of this one. The owner said "I'm taking him out on the trail to break him of some bad habits." Gee, thanks.
I agree with you completely, dog owners should be considerate of others in public(on trail or not). Many people have allergies, phobias etc...When in doubt always exercise courtesy.

sly dog
04-20-2009, 17:59
I thought you could have a fire as long as it is a previously used or designated spot. Am I wrong? I am heading there next month and was looking forward to a nice small campfire at nights.

emerald
04-20-2009, 18:32
http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisit/campbc_regs.htm

emerald
04-20-2009, 19:14
This dog was not on a leash. No leash anywhere in sight.

Did you point out leashes are required in SNP for all dogs even those which won obedience trials or belong to people who think they and their pet are special?:)

chknfngrs
04-20-2009, 19:16
Those permits are a necessarily evil unfortunately. It's a hoop we outdoorsmen created and a hoop we now have to jump through. I've registered at the same visitor center and caught moderate grief from probably the same rangers.

My solution was to play by the rules and get the permit, but without a ranger. When hiking in SNP overnight, I normally go to Thornton Gap off US211. It's fairly central to every district. There is an unmanned permit and registry near the old overlook restaurant. I've also acquired a permit from Old Rag parking area, mind you it was after midnight when I arrived, in late February, so no one was around.

Some on this board will argue that you should pay to play in that park, but to each his/her own. I think as long as you get your permit, you're golden.

As far as fires, I've never had a backcountry campfire in SNP, so can't speak on that. I had a cooking fire once at a campground site off Skyline, can't recall the name. Matthews Arm, methinks? I try to save campfires for car-camping anyways.

Blissful
04-20-2009, 19:48
Yeah, no fires except at huts or campgrounds.

And they are specific that the huts can be used by long distance hikers staying three or more consecutive nights. There is no distinction whether hikers are thru hikers or not.

And Pass mtn is at least a mile from the drive if I'm not mistaken. If anything, Bearfence gets all the weekenders. You can simply walk down the fire road there.

Mrs Baggins
04-20-2009, 20:40
Yeah, no fires except at huts or campgrounds.

And they are specific that the huts can be used by long distance hikers staying three or more consecutive nights. There is no distinction whether hikers are thru hikers or not.

And Pass mtn is at least a mile from the drive if I'm not mistaken. If anything, Bearfence gets all the weekenders. You can simply walk down the fire road there.

It's not that you have to stay at Pass Mt 3 nights - the regs say you are supposed to be hiking "3 days" but you can only stay at the hut for ONE night. That's posted on the hut itself. We were in the park for 3 days and still the ranger tried to keep us from staying there. Fee wise, we have a 12 month pass to the park so we have no desire to try to bypass the fees. We are absolute believers in "you use it, you pay for it."

Pokey2006
04-20-2009, 22:27
Regardless of whether there's a leash law, a dog owner should really put the pooch on a leash if encountering other people. I really hate it when I'm out jogging, and dogs get in my way, as the owner says "oh, she's really friendly, she won't hurt you." Sorry, I don't want to just take your word for it! But the darn thing on a leash!

Want your dog to run around freely, without a leash? That's what backyards are for.

No, I'm not a dog person. Not everyone is, which is something dog owners fail to realize sometimes.

phishpapond
04-20-2009, 22:47
You should have told the Ranger that the park rules state that The shelter are for any hiker out for 3 or more nights and they don't say except for when thru hikers are coming thru.

I just got back from SNP early today. My girl couldn't take the cold and rain so we left early. When we stop in at Big meadows to get our back country permit thay ask where you are going to stay every night. When I told them that we were going to stay at Byrd's nest 3 thay had no idea it opened to overnight camping on november 2008. Goverment idiot's

phishpapond
04-20-2009, 22:50
I didn't think their was a leash law in SNP? I'm pretty sure dogs are allowed.


Yes there is.You have to have your dog on a leash at all times in SNP.

phishpapond
04-20-2009, 22:52
I think things have changed since. I dropped my friend off at rockfish gap in late winter. He is a legitimate hiker. I warned him to register. He is also a stubborn hiker. He did not heed my advice and received a $50.00 fine. I also talked to hikers last year who received a ticket for not hanging a bear bag at the shelter. I believe things have gotten stricter. Also with federal funding dropping in natl parks, this is a source of revenue.


That is because SNP has 2 bear for evevy 1 square mile

emerald
04-20-2009, 22:53
You have to have your dog on a leash at all times in SNP.

Thanks, I didn't bother to read my link either!;)

phishpapond
04-20-2009, 22:55
I thought you could have a fire as long as it is a previously used or designated spot. Am I wrong? I am heading there next month and was looking forward to a nice small campfire at nights.


You can only have fires at shelters or huts in the back country.

phishpapond
04-20-2009, 22:59
It's not that you have to stay at Pass Mt 3 nights - the regs say you are supposed to be hiking "3 days" but you can only stay at the hut for ONE night. That's posted on the hut itself. We were in the park for 3 days and still the ranger tried to keep us from staying there. Fee wise, we have a 12 month pass to the park so we have no desire to try to bypass the fees. We are absolute believers in "you use it, you pay for it."

Look them dead in the and say I don't want to tell you how to do you job but the rules stat3e..........

phishpapond
04-20-2009, 23:15
Thanks, I didn't bother to read my link either!;)
I am only talking about SNP couldn't tell you to much about the at outside of SNP.
It's the only 100 hundreds of the AT Iknow like the back of my hand

emerald
04-20-2009, 23:19
I am only talking about SNP couldn't tell you to much about the at outside of SNP.

Lucky for us!:D

freefall
04-20-2009, 23:37
Shenandoah National Park Backcountry Camping - Regulations

1) You must have a free backcountry camping permit....
10) Pets (https://cms.ner.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisit/pets.htm) must be leashed at all times and are not permitted on some trails....
11) Camping may not exceed two nights in one campsite location or 14 consecutive nights in the backcountry....


The SNP website makes no reference to what constitutes a long distance hiker. It only states that the PATC maintains the huts for long-term hikers but does not provide a definition.


Link to regs. page. http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisit/campbc_regs.htm

zoidfu
04-20-2009, 23:45
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/16/AR2006041600612.html

emerald
04-21-2009, 00:23
I'm not convinced the kind of problems mentioned are best solved with more enforcement if that's what's being suggested even if it were an option. These issues are caused by people who can't be bothered to inform themselves or respect the conditions of use which apply to everyone. People who won't speak up when they observe inappropriate behavior don't help the situation either.

emerald
04-21-2009, 00:31
The SNP website makes no reference to what constitutes a long distance hiker. It only states that the PATC maintains the huts for long-term hikers but does not provide a definition.


Huts are three-sided structures located along the Appalachian Trail and for use by long-term hikers (who are out for three consecutive nights or more).

I take the quote to mean a long-term hiker is someone engaged in linear hike on the A.T. of 3 or more consecutive nights not to exceed 1 per hut. An out-and-back using the same hut on the 1st and 3rd nights or a circuit hike of the same duration might be acceptable, but I'd ask SNP rather than assume.

freefall
04-21-2009, 00:35
[quote=freefall;824629]The SNP website makes no reference to what constitutes a long distance hiker. It only states that the PATC maintains the huts for long-term hikers but does not provide a definition.[quote]

I would think we're talking about linear hikes on the A.T. of 3 or more consecutive nights not to exceed 1 per hut as mentioned earlier in this thread.I agree "we would think" BUT as the park does not mention any prerequisites for staying at the huts, then simply getting a permit should suffice regardless of length of stay. And linear may not be accurate as there are several hikes in the park that start and finish in ( or almost in) the same spot that could involve two or more nights.

What one assumes is not always correct.

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 00:38
I know there's a sign at bearfence that says it's for one night only

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 00:39
And I want to say it also says something like, "for long distance hikers" or something like that but I can't remember the exact wording.

freefall
04-21-2009, 00:58
I know there's a sign at bearfence that says it's for one night only


And I want to say it also says something like, "for long distance hikers" or something like that but I can't remember the exact wording.

I don't remember the sign so I can't say... but if I were planning a trip based on the website regs then I would be pissed if I were told I could only stay one night where I had planned to stay two.

Say you wanted to hike in to Bearfence Hut on day one then hit Bearfence and maybe Lewis Mountain or Pocosin Hollow on day two, using Bearfence Hut as a base. You only brought food that has to be cooked and do not have a stove as you planned on staying at Huts which allow fires.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying if the PATC and ATC wish the huts to be for long-distance hikers only, then they need to get the NPS to change the regs for SNP. Because the regs posted on the website say you can stay anywhere within the rules if you have permit, huts included.

emerald
04-21-2009, 01:02
What one assumes is not always correct.

True, that's why one should contact SNP for interpretation of their regulations, not WhiteBlaze. WhiteBlaze doesn't make them or enforce them. Skyline probably could provide a coherent and insightful answer, but maybe like most other Volunteers in the Parks (VIPs) he isn't interested in the abuse.

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 01:04
Ehhhh, all the hut regs are pretty flexible as long as you inform any rangers that you will move out of the hut if someone needs it. I stay at them when I'm there and I usually drive skyline and dayhike the sights and then stay at a hut. The Rangers that have given me permits have never give me any grief about it.

freefall
04-21-2009, 01:04
True, that's why one should contact SNP for interpretation of their regulations, not WhiteBlaze. WhiteBlaze doesn't make them or enforce them, but Skyline probably could provide a reliable answer.
Absolutely correct. That is why I have Whiteblaze open in one tab and SNP open in another. That way I can flip back and forth easily. Oh , and a tab with the Dept. of the Interior in case something gets a little fuzzy.

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 01:06
I should also add that the ridgerunners I've come across are the same as the rangers in that they'll let you bend the hut use rules as long as you make it known that you'll set up outside if thrus or sectioners need it.

freefall
04-21-2009, 01:10
Ehhhh, all the hut regs are pretty flexible as long as you inform any rangers that you will move out of the hut if someone needs it. I stay at them when I'm there and I usually drive skyline and dayhike the sights and then stay at a hut. The Rangers that have given me permits have never give me any grief about it.

That's what I'm saying. All told I have spent well over a year of my life in SNP and never had any trouble. So it disturbs me when I hear of stuff like this and then get even more disturbed when it might be from misinterpretation of regs that the Park Service have established in black and white. But I've NEVER been told I have to move out if someone needs it.

emerald
04-21-2009, 01:17
I should also add that the ridgerunners I've come across are the same as the rangers in that they'll let you bend the hut use rules as long as you make it known that you'll set up outside if thrus or sectioners need it.

So let's advise the masses who rely on WhiteBlaze for information they can pretty much do whatever they want.:rolleyes: Isn't that SOP?

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 01:26
So let's advise the masses who rely on WhiteBlaze for information they can pretty much do whatever they want.:rolleyes: Isn't that SOP?

Or we can just make the huts decorations. I mean, it's not like they exist for use, right?

So, go ahead and tell tell me why I shouldn't use one if there is nobody around.

freefall
04-21-2009, 01:28
Or we can just make the huts decorations. I mean, it's not like they exist for use, right?

But only if the privies are cleaned up. SNP has some of the WORST smelling ones!!! OMG!!!!!:eek: Must be all that BS coming down from DC.

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 01:35
I've also met two different ridgerunners that not only look the other way when it comes to backcountry fire rings, but the one said there's a faction that is pro backcountry fire ring in order to clean up some of the downed limbs. He made a compelling case in that all the regulation is doing is letting tinder build up and making trail maintainer's jobs harder.

I don't subscribe to it(although I'd like to see a few more established fire rings) but it's interesting to see the difference in opinion and practice.

freefall
04-21-2009, 01:42
I've also met two different ridgerunners that not only look the other way when it comes to backcountry fire rings, but the one said there's a faction that is pro backcountry fire ring in order to clean up some of the downed limbs. He made a compelling case in that all the regulation is doing is letting tinder build up and making trail maintainer's jobs harder.

I don't subscribe to it(although I'd like to see a few more established fire rings) but it's interesting to see the difference in opinion and practice.
That is definitely a slippery slope! Encourage fire rings a little and the forest fire tinder is gone. Too many people start doing it and you have a higher risk of forest fire as well as problems with people trying to cut down existing trees/ limbs and less nutrients in the soil.

There's a "campsite" just south of Big Meadows I would love to have a fire at but I concede to the popular wisdom and do not. The area is in dire need of a clean out as there are limbs down everywhere (at least there was in October.) But it is too close (5/8 mile) to Big Meadows that they will not have a prescribed burn for fear of scaring off guests or worse, burning down a cabin if it gets out of hand.

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 02:26
That is definitely a slippery slope! Encourage fire rings a little and the forest fire tinder is gone. Too many people start doing it and you have a higher risk of forest fire as well as problems with people trying to cut down existing trees/ limbs and less nutrients in the soil.

There's a "campsite" just south of Big Meadows I would love to have a fire at but I concede to the popular wisdom and do not. The area is in dire need of a clean out as there are limbs down everywhere (at least there was in October.) But it is too close (5/8 mile) to Big Meadows that they will not have a prescribed burn for fear of scaring off guests or worse, burning down a cabin if it gets out of hand.

I agree. I think it would lead to fire rings being everywhere. It's a shame that we can't be given an inch without taking a mile... I can think of a dozen places I would love to have a nice fire at.... but at least I can almost count on those places being clean and pristine and that's worth not having a fire, IMO.

freefall
04-21-2009, 02:31
I can think of a dozen places I would love to have a nice fire at.... but at least I can almost count on those places being clean and pristine and that's worth not having a fire, IMO.

I agree totally. It is worth the trade off sometimes. Could you imagine if all the DC as%^#$^#$ showed up to backpack? It would be a disaster!

max patch
04-21-2009, 07:09
Anyone who chooses to hike in the Smokies or Shennies gets what they deserve. Nasty places.

zoidfu
04-21-2009, 07:12
I guess I deserved a good time. But yeah, SNP ain't **** compared to the western parks.

Engine
04-21-2009, 07:33
Anyone who chooses to hike in the Smokies or Shennies gets what they deserve. Nasty places.

If you stay in the traveled areas for sure, but I have been out for days without seeing another hiker in the Smokies. I have to agree that they pale in comparison to the Tetons, Yellowstone, RMNP, etc...

sherrill
04-21-2009, 10:26
If you stay in the traveled areas for sure, but I have been out for days without seeing another hiker in the Smokies. I have to agree that they pale in comparison to the Tetons, Yellowstone, RMNP, etc...

Or the Swiss Alps, the Andes, Himalayas, etc. It's all relative to what you expect.

Lemni Skate
05-04-2009, 08:32
I have found all these quite easily in park publications and PATC publications.

If you're staying in the back country (not a car campground) you must have a permit.

Shelters in the park are for LONG DISTANCE HIKERS only. A long distance hiker is defined as someone who is spending at least 3 NIGHTS in the backcountry. (This is SNP reg, not PATC as PATC has no rules on shelter use). Thru Hikers have no special rights over other long distance hikers. Hanging your food is required.
Calf Mountain Shelter and Tom Floyd Wayside Shelter are NOT in SNP so the regs do not apply there (If you're in Virginia and it's called a "Hut" then it's in SNP). You are not to spend more than one night in a row at a shelter. You are permitted to use the shelters in emergencies regardless of your status.
Rules for where you can pitch a tent are pretty complicated, but there are designated sites at the shelters. Otherwise you're supposed to be out of site of the trail and a proscribed distance from roads, park developements and streams, but I can never remember the exact distances.

Dogs on AT must be on a leash in the park.

No campfires except at the commercial campgrounds and in fire pits at the shelters or cabins.

My kids and I camped on Cedar Run trail last week without a permit. It never crossed my mind to get one, even though I know I have to have them. I even confessed my misdeed to a ranger the next day with no consequences.

freefall
05-07-2009, 07:37
I guess I deserved a good time. But yeah, SNP ain't **** compared to the western parks.

Come out some time, we'll hit some trail. The wild life isn't like it is back east. Fewer bear but more mt lions and coyote. Marmots, rabbits, etc... try to steal your food instead of mice.