Lightweight single-wall tent for Philmont?

[SteveJ]

Hi, all. A dedicated hammocker, I find myself in the position of having to plan to "go to ground!" Scott and I are planning to do a Philmont trek in 2010, and are beginning to think about gear (they don't allow hammocks). My understanding of the Philmont rules is that they require complete coverage above the ground (for example, couldn't use a 3-sided tarptent, but one crew that posted a report at backpackinglight.com used BD betalites a few years ago, which provide full coverage), but don't necessarily need a complete tent.

Recommendations? What's the latest / greatest lightweight shelter for 2 / 3 these days?

Steve

[hammock engineer]

Got to love the BSA rules. Luckily I went years back before light weight or hammocking was in the picture for me.

There is some talk on hammock forums about hammocks and Philmont. Not sure of what came of it.

One of these days I am planning on getting a tarp tent for the ground use. They have some nice models that with a pad can come in lighter than my hammock setup.

[Footslogger]

Been to Philmont 3 times as an adult leader ('95, '97, '99). Wish I knew then what I know now. I'd suggest you look at one of the Six Moon Design or Tarptent models. Personally ...I would carry my Six Moon Design Wild Oasis. They load you down with so much food that you need to cut weight wherever you can. The Wild Oasis is around 11 ounces and is plenty big for me and my pack. I am 5"10".

'Slogger

[dbjaime3]

We are going to Philmont in late August. This will be my first trip. I have purchased a Traptent Contrail for this trip. It weights 24 oz. I have not even set it up once, so I can not give you any input on the tent. The review on it from this forum and others rate it a good.

I will be going on a small backpack trip in a couple weeks and it will be my first try with it.

[Dances with Mice]

Hi, all. A dedicated hammocker, I find myself in the position of having to plan to "go to ground!" Scott and I are planning to do a Philmont trek in 2010, and are beginning to think about gear (they don't allow hammocks). My understanding of the Philmont rules is that they require complete coverage above the ground (for example, couldn't use a 3-sided tarptent, but one crew that posted a report at backpackinglight.com used BD betalites a few years ago, which provide full coverage), but don't necessarily need a complete tent.

Recommendations? What's the latest / greatest lightweight shelter for 2 / 3 these days?I used a BD Megalite for me & son. Luxurious amount of room, minimal weight. Big enough for evening card games.

[SteveJ]

Been to Philmont 3 times as an adult leader ('95, '97, '99). Wish I knew then what I know now. I'd suggest you look at one of the Six Moon Design or Tarptent models. Personally ...I would carry my Six Moon Design Wild Oasis. They load you down with so much food that you need to cut weight wherever you can. The Wild Oasis is around 11 ounces and is plenty big for me and my pack. I am 5"10".

'Slogger

Thanks, 'Slogger - I thought that Philmont requires full walls on all sides, which aren't available in the tarptent models, right (one side with beak / netting)? Am I wrong about what they want?

[Foyt20]

Check out the Tarptent Rainbow or double rainbow. They both have full walls on all sides. If you need any other help feel free to ask, I have been 3 times once as a scout, once as a crew leader, and once as an adult leader, so I have a pretty 360 degree view.

[SteveJ]

I used a BD Megalite for me & son. Luxurious amount of room, minimal weight. Big enough for evening card games.

Thanks, Dances with Mice. I have a betamid, and a megalite is on my list of possibilities. Did you also take the MegaBug? Did not having an enclosed space cause any problems (bugs, mice, etc.)? If not the MegaBug, what did you use for flooring?

megalite + megabug = 4 lbs, 15 oz - ouch!

[SteveJ]

Check out the Tarptent Rainbow or double rainbow. They both have full walls on all sides. If you need any other help feel free to ask, I have been 3 times once as a scout, once as a crew leader, and once as an adult leader, so I have a pretty 360 degree view.

Did you take the tarptents to Philmont? That would be great, if they are allowed!

[Franco]

There is a topic at Backpackinglight called Philmont. These comments are from one thread entitled "lightweight at Philmont"
No subscription required for this one.

Phil B
Our shelters were all Tarptents. Our crew used 1 Rainshadow 2 (slept 3), 2 Squall 2 (sleeping 2 and 1), a Squall (slept 2), and my solo shelter, a floorless Virga. The Tarptents worked fine through fair weather as well as wind, rain, and hail. My only refinement on the Virga would be more headroom but 18 ounces is hard to beat. Our other crew also used entirely Tarptents with no problems. We did not carry ground cloths for the floored tents.
Scott B
Lighter tents: 2 G Gear The One, 1 Tarptent Contrail, 1 Tarptent Dbl. Rainbow
Albert K
Contrail Tarptent - We were hit with a heck of a storm at Crater Lake. Hail, flash flood/river through the campsite, you name it. I didn't expect any of the tents to hold up to it. The Tarptent was fine, I staked it with 7 stakes. This thing is light and large. I brought a sep. pack towel to wipe down condensation - it was never needed.
Franco

[sloopjonboswell]

philmont in the summer is a breeze, be prepared for six mile days and amazingly staffed outposts. carry a rainfly, ground tarp, and cheese grits to impress the young sprouts.

[sloopjonboswell]

oops, as much as i love bsa, who's gonna tell you that you have to go home b/c you dont have enough walls on your tent. hell, you all paid the money to be out there. have fun, cut weight like a pro.

[SteveJ]

oops, as much as i love bsa, who's gonna tell you that you have to go home b/c you dont have enough walls on your tent. hell, you all paid the money to be out there. have fun, cut weight like a pro.

chuckle...actually, I've heard they do have pretty strict gear / fitness standards. I'm not concerned about them sending me home because I don't have enough walls - but am concerned about them telling me I have to carry their heavy tents! I have heard of several adults being sent home because of weight - especially for cavalcades (strict 200# wt limit) - they don't want a lard ass on their horses!

great idea on the cheese grits - will make it in my pack!

[lbbrown]

My son and I did Philmont in July 07. I used a Double Rainbow, he used an REI half dome. Both worked great(especially the Rainbow!) The camp wants floored and walled tents to keep out the crawling critters. Be prepared for quickly changing weather such as thunder storms with lightning rain and hail. I had a 10x12 OES tarp (14 oz.) that saved our butts one day while climbing Mt. Phillips. Our crew of 10 huddled under the tarp during a violent hailstorm. Quite an experience. The boys sang Christmas caroles and had a snowball fight in July. Wouldn't have missed it for the world! I was over 200 lbs. and still rode the horses.

[Dances with Mice]

Thanks, Dances with Mice. I have a betamid, and a megalite is on my list of possibilities. Did you also take the MegaBug? Did not having an enclosed space cause any problems (bugs, mice, etc.)? If not the MegaBug, what did you use for flooring?

megalite + megabug = 4 lbs, 15 oz - ouch!Never used the Bug. Don't have one. I did sew a strip of bug netting around the bottom of the tent, tho. You can see it here (http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h299/raystern/DRT%202008/DSCN0041.jpg) but it's mostly tucked inside the tent. Bugs really aren't a problem in the -mid for some reason they always migrate to the top peak of the tent. You've probably noticed that. The netting does help when it rains, flip it outside and water runs off the tent and doesn't splash back in. That was an unexpected benefit. The netting came from a cot-sized mosquito net that I cut into 12" strips and hand sewed to the bottom seam.

We used groundcloths to cover the floor and over the years have used plastic sheeting, Tyvek, an orange emergency tube tent split in half, a Neat Sheet with the weights removed (that's my current one and my favorite so far), and the re-useable emergency blanket, the multi-layer kind with grommets (also a favorite).

[Ender]

Recommendations? What's the latest / greatest lightweight shelter for 2 / 3 these days?

Steve

Probably the lightest tents out there right now would be either the Gossamer Gear "The One", or the Gossamer Gear "Squall Classic". The One is lighter, but the Squall Classic is roomier for not much more weight.

[mustangpwr98]

Whwn I went to philmont they didnt allow hammocks because they didnt want rope marks on treeds from 20,000 people.
Philmont has some strict and in some cases outdated/stupid rules. But the gear they issue has to last 20,000 kids throwing it around,thats why alot of it is heavy and rugged versus the lightweight stuff.
It has not always been this way... my scoutmaster that went there tiwce in the lat 70's said they just took the group dining fly and slept under that.

[riceNbeans]

I have been to Philmont as a camper, on Rayado, was a Philmont Ranger, worked in the backcountry (Pueblano, 1980) and, finally, oversaw all of the Philmont Buses running to and fro for an entire summer. I say this not to toot my own horm but to let you know I know of what I speak.

Reasons for no hammocks:

*Can you imagine what 20,000 campers each and ever summer would do to the tree s in the establisged campsites with hammocks? That's 200,000 cmper nights each and every year!

*Bears know where the camp sites are. Some get hit almost evey night. Can you say "bear pinata"?

Reason for floored tents: Think mice in shelters are bad? Try mini-bears (chipmunks) at night.....

Yes, the BSA has some outdated rules and regulations. Some are just plain stupid... Yet, the height weight limits are there for a reason that some may not suspect. While Philmont is hardly "wilderness", some parts are pretty far from a road to which a Suburban can meet an injured party. Every year, Rangers have to "stoke out" somebody for hours over many miles to meet a Suburban. In 1978, we have to extract a person from the Crags on Rayado Creek. Now THAT was work!

[Footslogger]

Thanks, 'Slogger - I thought that Philmont requires full walls on all sides, which aren't available in the tarptent models, right (one side with beak / netting)? Am I wrong about what they want?
============================

Been a while so they might have changed the regs. Either way ...something like the Six Moon Designs Wild Oasis would work. It's got a noseeum mesh skirt at the very bottom of the tent but it can be pitched so that just about all the mesh fits up inside the tent and under your ground cloth.

'Slogger

[hammock engineer]

I have been to Philmont as a camper, on Rayado, was a Philmont Ranger, worked in the backcountry (Pueblano, 1980) and, finally, oversaw all of the Philmont Buses running to and fro for an entire summer. I say this not to toot my own horm but to let you know I know of what I speak.

Reasons for no hammocks:

*Can you imagine what 20,000 campers each and ever summer would do to the tree s in the establisged campsites with hammocks? That's 200,000 cmper nights each and every year!

*Bears know where the camp sites are. Some get hit almost evey night. Can you say "bear pinata"?

Reason for floored tents: Think mice in shelters are bad? Try mini-bears (chipmunks) at night.....

Yes, the BSA has some outdated rules and regulations. Some are just plain stupid... Yet, the height weight limits are there for a reason that some may not suspect. While Philmont is hardly "wilderness", some parts are pretty far from a road to which a Suburban can meet an injured party. Every year, Rangers have to "stoke out" somebody for hours over many miles to meet a Suburban. In 1978, we have to extract a person from the Crags on Rayado Creek. Now THAT was work!


I can see that on the hammock use. A lot of people hang them wrong. Even my webbing wrapped a couple times around a tree can leave a mark on a soft bark tree. Not a rule I can argue with considering the number of people and skill level of a lot of scouts, myself included at that age.

I do disagree on the bear pinata. I haven't heard of any confirmed reports of people being bothered in a hammock. Think it is the same as a tent on this one. Both which are safer than cowboying.

[riceNbeans]

I do disagree on the bear pinata. I haven't heard of any confirmed reports of people being bothered in a hammock. Think it is the same as a tent on this one. Both which are safer than cowboying.

I disagree as well but that is their reasoning. Heck, I have Cowboy'd at Philmont with no troubles.

[SteveJ]

thanks all, for the input....I'm still a little confused on their rules, tho....

I saw the article at backpackinglight, where they used a sil betamid without the floor. It looks like the tarptent rainbow or contrail, or the Gossamer Gear shelters, which can close up, would also meet the definition of a "tent"....

It looks like I'll actually be purchasing two shelters - one for my son and his friend, and one for me. We're going as part of the council contingency, and haven't been put in a crew yet, so I don't know yet who the other adult(s) are. My inclination is to get / plan on my own shelter. Am thinking about maybe the Rainbow 2 for Scott and his buddy....

It sounds like a decision I'll have to make is whether to go with a shelter without an integrated floor (betalite with tyvek ground cloth) or one with an integrated floor. How bad are the chipmunks?

will do some research and come back here with questions!

[littlelaurel59]

Hi, all. A dedicated hammocker, I find myself in the position of having to plan to "go to ground!" Scott and I are planning to do a Philmont trek in 2010, and are beginning to think about gear (they don't allow hammocks). My understanding of the Philmont rules is that they require complete coverage above the ground (for example, couldn't use a 3-sided tarptent, but one crew that posted a report at backpackinglight.com used BD betalites a few years ago, which provide full coverage), but don't necessarily need a complete tent.

Recommendations? What's the latest / greatest lightweight shelter for 2 / 3 these days?

Steve

I was there last summer. Our crew of 12 used a Tarptent Cloudburst, a TT Squall, 2 REI Quarterdomes, a Sierra Designs Lightyear, and an MSR Twin Peaks Tarp. All worked great, and no one questioned our shelters- even the Twin Peaks which was open along the sides.

I, too, missed my hammock.

Have a great trip- take a little extra time to see the surrounding area if you can. Check out the Koshare Indian Museum and Kiva in La Junta, CO.

[bigcranky]

Get a pair of Double Rainbows -- they make a great solo shelter for adults, and the two kids will fit in the other one just fine.

You can always sell them here when you get back. Tarptents tend to sell quickly.

[Don H]

I plan on taking my Tarptent Rainbow.

[JAK]

Does Philmont or Boy Scouts of America have any maximum weight restrictions?

Yes I am trolling ;)

[SteveJ]

Does Philmont or Boy Scouts of America have any maximum weight restrictions?

Yes I am trolling ;)

TROLL! http://www.passatworld.com/smilies/smiley_troll.gif

chuckle....

if you're talking body weight, well, yeah:
http://www.scouting.org/HighAdventure/Philmont/Hikers/weight.aspx

if you're talking pack weight, quoting from same article:
"Philmont recommends that participants carry a pack weighing no more than 25% to 30% of their body weight."

yeah, 30% of 210......that's not happening!

[skinewmexico]

Does Philmont or Boy Scouts of America have any maximum weight restrictions?

Yes I am trolling ;)

Only as it applies to rescues. I think they have a 295# maximum per adult, and you have to be 6' 7" to be allowed that.

[riceNbeans]

Only as it applies to rescues. I think they have a 295# maximum per adult, and you have to be 6' 7" to be allowed that.

No quite true. The height / weight applies to being allowed on the trail. Every summer, adults seem to "forget" about the height / weight chart and show up expecting to be on the trail. The MD's at Philmont do have final say and exceptions are made for kids (athletes with all muscle tend to blow the chart off of the page). Rarely, if ever, are exceptions made for adults some are sent home every summer without ever being allowed on the trail. If you or any other adult is borderline, call Philmont at 575-376-2281 and ask.

[dzierzak]

During the first five days of the 2008 Philmont season, 16 were sent hone for being overweight. Two of the 16 were youth.

From the Philmont Risk Advisory:

"Participants 21 years and older who exceed the maximum acceptable weight limit for their height at the Philmont medical
recheck WILL NOT be permitted to backpack or hike at Philmont. For example, a person 70 inches tall cannot weigh more than
226 lbs. All heights and weights will be measured in stocking feet."

Everyone gets the Height/Weight table long before the trek...

[dzierzak]

Minor quibble...

Of the 16 sent home for not making the weight, an unknown number were youth.

:-? but I bettcha most were adults....

[dallas]

Probably the lightest tents out there right now would be either the Gossamer Gear "The One", or the Gossamer Gear "Squall Classic". The One is lighter, but the Squall Classic is roomier for not much more weight.

My son and I went to Philmont last year. I had the GG squall classic and it worked great for me. There was one morning that it had condensation on the interior walls but not enough to cause a problem. It certainly was the lightest tent in our group (22 oz. w/stakes & pole) and packs down nice and small.

I do wish they allowed hammocks though.

[Bear Cables]

We are going to Philmont in late August. This will be my first trip. I have purchased a Traptent Contrail for this trip. It weights 24 oz. I have not even set it up once, so I can not give you any input on the tent. The review on it from this forum and others rate it a good.

I will be going on a small backpack trip in a couple weeks and it will be my first try with it.


I have been to Philmont twice (97 and 2000)Don't think too many moms can say that;) I also have a Contrail. I highly recommend it and think it would be perfect for Philmont.

[Bear Cables]

Did you take the tarptents to Philmont? That would be great, if they are allowed!

I don't see why not. My contrail has complete walls and as much coverage as the Philmont tents they loan out.

[Bear Cables]

How bad are the chipmunks?

How bad are the Chipmunks? Plentiful and bold. They will dig in your pack with it next to you!

[SteveJ]

Hi, all. I'm resurrecting this thread to hopefully get your reivew / critique of my first cut at Philmont gear lists for Scott and I. The "gotta buy"s are items I plan to purchase. Ideas? Anything I'm leaving out? Suggestions for alternative? (The totals assume 2 liters of water, 6 lbs of food, and 3 lbs of group gear).

Thanks!

Steve (item / weight in ounces)
Granite Gear Vapor Trail 32.00
pack raincover (sea to summit medium) 3.0 (gotta buy)
Sleep System
HH Tarptent Double Rainbow 41.0 (gotta buy)
Thru-hiker down quilt 21.0
Thermorest NeoAir Reg 14.0 (gotta buy)
Pillow (Coccoon UL Air core) 4.8 (gotta buy)
Personal kitchen
orikasa bowl 2.0
travel coffee mug 4.0
MSR Mug mate 3.0
Hydration
3 liter canteen 3.0
platypus 2 liter Big Zip w/ tube 4.0
Personal
Glasses case / cleaner 5.0
headlamp 4.0
Pulsar II backup 0.3
5Leatherman 'Squirt P4' 2.0
Ditty bag* 7.5
50 ft kelty trip-tease cord 1.0
Camera 5.1
wipes / gold bond / tp 12.0
Personal first aid kit (extra batteries) 6.0
Clothing Carried
Frogg Toggs top & bottom 15.0 (gotta buy - estimating weight)
Poly l-s 14.0
poly bottom14.0
extra sock 3.0
sleep sock 3.0
balaclava 3.0
2 pair spare boxers / bike shorts 8.0
Group gear assumed
food 96.0
gear 48.0
Total pack weight 23.85 lbs 381.7 oz
* Ditty bag: toothbrush /paste, salt/pepper, spork, lighter, hand sanitizer, dental floss, camp suds
Worn / carried
Tilly hat 4.0
poly t-shirt 6.0
zip-off pants12.0
hiking socks 4.0
Merrell Moab ventilator hiking shoes / shoe inserts 38.0
Leki Makalu hiking poles 21.0
Total, worn or carried 85.0
Total, skin-out weight 29.17lbs 466.7ozs


Scott:
Golite Jam 2 20.0
smallpack raincover (sea to summit medium) 3.1
Tyvek groundsheet 10.0
stakes 4.0
Campmore 40 deg down bag 31.5
Thermorest zlite short 9.2
Cocoon silk liner 4.4
Personal kitchen items
orikasa bowl 2.0
Snowpeak 450ml titanium mug 2.1
Hydration
2 liter bladder 3.1
platypus 2 liter Big Zip w/ tube 4.0
PersonalGlasses case / cleaner 5.0
headlamp 4.0
Pulsar II backup 0.25
knife 4.0
Ditty bag* 3.5
wipes / gold bond / tp 6.0
Personal first aid kit (extra batteries) 3.0
Clothing Carried
Frogg Toggs top & bottom 13.0 (gotta buy)
Poly l-s top 4.0
poly bottom 2.8
extra sock 3.0
sleep sock 3.0
balaclava 2.0
2 pair spare boxers / bike shorts 4.0
Group gear
Assumed: food: 96
gear: 48
Total pack weight: 18.68lbs, 298.8 ozs.

*Ditty bag: toothbrush /paste, salt/pepper, spork, lighter, hand sanitizer, dental floss, camp suds
Worn / carried
hat 4.0
poly t-shirt 4.8
zip-off pants 14.0
hiking socks 3.0
Merrell Moab ventilator hiking shoes 32.0 (need new ones - will outgrow current)
REI Ascent hiking poles 16.0
Total, worn or carried: 4.6 lbs, 73.8 ozs

Total, skin-out weight: 23.3 lbs, 372.6 ozs

[Bulldawg]

I got a real problem with the BSA's weight height requirement. And it came up in one of our District Roundtables not long ago. I am 72 inches tall and just barely tip over their weigh limits for that height. And I am no strong 3.5 or 4 mph hiker, but I have hiked with Boy Scouts who in NO WAY could out hike me. I think the rules shouldn't be so STRICTLY enforced. I mean I can see a 72 inch tall 235 pound adult with ZERO experience not being allowed on the trail. But why should a 72 inch tall 235 pound adult with 30+ nights per year on the trail and 200+ per year trail miles be treated the same in the BSA's eyes?

[rapchizzle]

I went to Philmont back in 2002 with my pops and a best friend, his mom and a bunch of other people we didn't know till that point. It was an amazing time! I wa sglad we had a floored tent because it rained about every other day on us!

I have a newer, smaller, lighter, fancier tent now and if I ever went back or when I go on extended trips with unpredictable weather, I'd bring it along for the rainy days